Woman's Hour - Quadruple gold medallist Amy Hunt, Charlotte Church, Child maintenance, Comedian Lucy Porter

Episode Date: August 17, 2026

Amy Hunt became the first athlete in the 92-year history of the European Championships to win four gold medals in a single event, claiming titles in the 100m, 200m, women's 4x100m relay and the new mixed 4x100m relay. She had stated that her intention was to become "iconic". She joins Nuala McGovern to discuss her sporting achievements. BBC Sport correspondent Jane Dougall also joins Nuala to discuss the other female successes of the championships, including Dina Asher-Smith, who is now the most decorated athlete in European Championships history.In tonight's BBC Panorama, reporter Krupa Padhy has been investigating the Child Maintenance Service. For separated parents, child maintenance payments can help cover essential expenses, from childcare costs to the weekly food shop. But BBC Panorama has spoken to parents who say they are missing out on thousands of pounds they are owed. Some say mistakes within the system have pushed them to breaking point. Krupa joins Nuala to discuss the findings, alongside Katy, who shares her experience of the service.From child classical singing sensation to pop artist, founder of the Arwen Project, an alternative education model, and now wellness retreat owner, Charlotte Church has spent her career continually evolving. Most recently, she appeared as a Faithful on Celebrity Traitors. She tells us about her latest musical project, End Time Pop Dungeon and more.Lucy Porter has been touring as a stand-up comedian for more than 20 years. She is a sought-after comedy writer for television, theatre and film, a regular on television panel shows, and a familiar voice on Radio 4 programmes including The News Quiz and The Now Show. Next year, she will celebrate 30 years in comedy. She discusses her new book, Middle-Aged Women Get Sht Done*, a love letter to middle-aged women.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's O'Dbolo.com. Hello, I'm Neula McGovern, and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme.

Well, Team G.B.'s Golden Girl History Making Amy Hunt in just a moment. I caught up with her just a few minutes ago as she processes how she just won four gold medals in a week. That in a moment. Also, the singer Charlotte Church will be with us this hour. She's about to go on tour with her late night pop dungeon. Yes, we'll learn what that's all about. And we'll have the comedian and radio for regular Lucy Porter, who has a new book which could be called a love letter to middle-aged women.

It's all about middle-aged women getting stuff done. And she talks about Linda's. And I'm wondering, are you Alinda? Do you take all the notes and meetings? Do you hand around the cards for people who are leaving work? Do you provide practical and emotional support for your colleagues? Well, if you are, you're possibly a Linda. I want to know why do you do it.

Why do you take on that mantle of responsibility? We're going to get into some of those issues facing middle-aged women. If you'd like to get in touch, there are lots of ways. On most smart speakers, you can say, Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment. You can text us, that's 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 0300-400-400-444. We're also going to have Kruppapadi in with us

because we want to hear about the battle women have with the child maintenance service, CMS, as they try to get their ex-partners to pay up. So that is all coming up this hour. But let me begin with some sport, as I mentioned. If you are watching the European Athletic Championships over the weekend, you will have seen Amy Hunt and Dina Asher Smith

both make history. Georgia Hunter Bell claimed a commanding 1,500 metre gold in a spectacular film, for Great Britain at the European Championships, but I did just catch up with Amy Hunt. She became the first athlete in the 92-year history of the European Championships to win four gold medals over the same week. So that was for the 100 metre, the 200 metre, the women's 100 metre relay,

and a new event, the mixed 100 metre relay. Amy had stated that her intention was to become iconic. So I asked her, how does it feel to have reached that goal? Oh my gosh, I can hardly believe it. I think you set these things out and you really hope that they come to fruition. But there's so many different moving parts. And it really requires a whole huge team of people to kind of bring it together. Not just my coach, but kind of all the relay staff, the other relay athletes.

And for me to stay healthy and happy and recovered and to look after myself and my body and get enough sleep. It's hard to get sleep on your phone is kind of blowing up. and stuff. So yeah, it's been a kind of dream week for me. It must be hard to get sleep when you're running as many races as well. So let's go back for a moment. You ran the 100 metre, followed by the 200 metre, winning golden both. You held up two fingers as you wore a crown saying two down, two to go. I found

it so refreshing to see that confidence. Were you always certain you could do it? I think I was so certain, especially in the relay medals, because I know how strong and how fast the girls are. We have some of the fastest girls in the world on our relay team, so there's no reason to ever be stressed about the relay. And even on the mix, we have one of the fastest combined kind of times. I think we were the second fastest mix relay ever.

So I'm never stressed about the relay. Everyone else is so, so, so vastly experienced. And myself with an Olympic silver is the least experience in that team. Those were the two that I was the most confident in. I knew once I'd done my job in the individual that life was going to be a dream. You know, that was a lovely moment as well when you ran the Women's Relay, the 4x100.

You paid tribute to the other women on your team, Dina Asher Smith, success, Edouan, Emane, Lari, Landsquire. Why did you feel the need to do that? Well, I think people obviously see us doing amazing things on the track, but they don't always realize how amazing we are off the track. I think there's so many amazing people in this sport who do incredible and live incredible lives outside of track. And I'm fortunate enough to train with Amani, so I see her every single day and how incredible

she is. And we kind of speak about books and we book swap all the time, but we also kind of will come around and have a twilight night watching a twilight marathon together. But also I think I'm such a proponent for women in education and all four of us kind of have such incredibly strong degrees and we're so smart and we're so clever. And I think for young women to be able to watch that and understand that and hear that and realize that you really can be smart

and be fast and be smart and be strong and be strong and be feminine as well. I think all of us out there, we looked gorgeous. Yes, you do. I was getting lost in the eyes in my teeth. teammates, everyone was so stunning, but also so smart and so individually accomplished. Yes, I mean, to say you were all rounders is definitely a fair characterization. But you know, you've talked about the glam and, you know, I couldn't take my eyes if you had. Amazing. The jewelry you wear, the nails, your makeup is beautiful as it was with your teammates.

But you say that gives you kind of like the gladiator going into the ring, the confidence to get into the right mentality and go for it. A hundred percent. It's like, it's always like in a different vein getting ready for a night out. Like how we might spend hours and hours kind of with the rollers in, kind of getting the face ready, doing an everything shower. And that's essentially the same thing, kind of wanting to feel at your best. And also, yeah, as I've spoken about, I mean, part of my degree, I study the paper called

material Renaissance. and some of it was about how we kind of interact with our clothing and how the sense of putting something on can kind of make us into a different person. And I definitely have that sense of when I put on the specific kind of jewelry items or makeup is putting on that alter ego in a way. Because I think I'm a very different person on the track. I'm not kind of going around shouting gladiator quotes in the middle of the street, but I'm a very different person on the track.

So it allows me to kind of step into that very confident persona. And I don't think you can kind of doubt yourself when you have a, a cat eye on. I have to say. You're, you're, yeah, it's,

it's the guessing ready process that's really fun. I've spoken to so many female ethics about this and kind of taking that hour or two to yourself to make sure you feel nice and you feel taking care of

sets you up in the best possible way to feel confident when you're, you're on that track. I was about to say, I definitely didn't see or feel any doubt radiating from you at all.

So it's definitely working. Interesting, you mentioned the mixed relay as well, that hasn't been run before. Tell me a bit what that was like. So that's kind of a new experience for the viewer as well as for you. Yeah, that was so fun. For me, it was an incredibly fun experience because I had a very easy job

and I just had to watch one of the fastest men in the world kind of ran into me and as soon as I saw his feet, just had to go. But the rest of the team had very, very tricky and complicated jobs and they handled it with such kind of grace and ease. And yeah, I think it was quite scary and in a good way. I think I likened it to kind of standing in a queue for a roller coaster and you've seen the dips and the loops and you're getting a little bit nervous. But then as soon as you get off the ride,

you kind of want to get on it straight away again. And it was a massive adrenaline shot. And I love the experience so much. And I think it's such a good kind of feeling being able to come together and do something new. I think in our sport, we're such a rudimentary sport. We run as fast as we possibly can from point A to point B. So doing something new is an incredibly rare thing for us.

And I think it was exactly what we needed at the end of the champs to kind of inspire us to go one more round and one more race and to come together with some of the people that I've grown up watching and some of the most decorated athletes in history, certainly decorated British athletes in history, is really, really incredible. Jeremiah, who is our lead off leg, was calling us the Avengers, the whole warm-up. So, yeah, it was definitely that kind of feeling.

I love it. How do you prepare to take part in four races in such quick succession, let alone win them? And I suppose it's what you do after each race, you know, to get ready for the next one. Yeah, I'm so incredibly lucky that my coach is also my physio. So he keeps a very close eye on me. And there was a lot of kind of midnight 1 a.m. 2 a.m. massages this week that kept me going. But it's also, I think, a chance like this, it's easy to get carried away on the big things. But at the end of the day, it's just trying to stay healthy and stay recovered.

So making sure you're getting enough sleep, making sure you're hydrating and having enough electrolytes, making sure you're looking after yourself, even with stuff like skincare, making sure that you're taking off all that makeup properly and you're getting to bed and clearing out all the kind of gel in your hair and you're really taking care of yourself. So, yeah, I think it's just keeping. it simple and staying healthy and staying recovered. And there's other things. Like I'll have kind of tart cherry juice. It's really high in antioxidant. So it really promotes that recovery. I might have some melatonin tablets if I'm not able to get to sleep just to like help me, help me drift off. Also,

like I said, just staying like having vitamin C and having iron and making sure I'm keeping on top of those levels and having them together to kind of maximize the impact. So I think I'm quite a scientific person. I love the detail and the precision of being an athlete and all the kind of regimented things I have to do, but it's such second nature. So, yeah. I did wonder how come you didn't have a hair out of place. It's the hair gel, I understand now, is the secret. But just one more thing on appearance, which actually ties in as well, of course,

to a lot of other hardware that you've been carrying around your neck. I believe your parents, after your 100 metre win, bought you gold earrings instead of to get you to wear, instead of wearing your usual silver. Yeah, so I am a silver jewelry girl, silver jewelry girl until the day I die. And then after I won a silver medal at the Commonwealth Games a couple of weeks ago, I joke with my parents that, oh my gosh, I have to stop wearing silver because I keep, I had a string of silver at Paris, at Tokyo, and then at the Commonwealth's.

So then they, because I live in a different country, I live in Italy, and I don't keep my GB kit with me, they had to drop it off here at the hotel. And then when I opened the bag on the night before, for my 100, I saw they left me a gift. And it was these gorgeous earrings with a note saying time for gold. So I was able to wear them for the 100. And it came true. So yes, I'm so, and yeah, it definitely made me cry. I'm quite a emotional person, I think. So it got the waterworks going. And yeah, I'm incredibly grateful to my parents and to the love that they show me. And yeah, it was definitely a manifestation. And it all came true. And it all worked. Just before,

I'll let you go. I know you're a Cambridge graduate as you refer to there living in Italy, Padua, I believe. Love going to the Guggenheim Museum in Venice to think and to sketch at the Peggy Guggenheim, I imagine, on the canal a beautiful place. That's such a,

what would I say, diverse mix of interests for one woman and a diverse geographical locations as well. Yeah, I think this is kind of what I was saying, me on the track is such a different person. Me off the track is very much a museum and a green tea and a book kind of girl.

But yeah, I'm so lucky that I get to be in my 20s living in Italy and living my dream, doing my dream career. And I studied English at Cambridge, but in the final year, I made it a sort of art history-esque degree. I did material renaissance and shorter as my two optional papers. and then I wrote a dissertation on kind of the super modern nature of supermarkets, American supermarkets in 1980s literature. And it was a very Andy Warhol kind of Marcel Nordstrom kind of vibe. So, yeah, being able to be surrounded by so much history and so much arts,

I mean, I went back through my notes when I moved out to Paderman. I'd written about Padua quite a few times because it features in the Canterbury Tales, obviously features in the Taming of the Shrew. And I live kind of two or two. meters away from the first botanical garden in the world. And the home of Apparal Spritz, so it's not so bad. So it's a lovely life to lean. I think it keeps me kind of sane and humbled and also interest in the world around me.

I think we all have one life to live. So why not live as broad and as crazy and as interesting life as possible? Life continues beyond the track. and I think sometimes when you get too kind of narrowed in on running fast, it can be quite unhealthy. So, yeah, I try and walk around my gorgeous hometown of Padava and just, yeah, be a normal 24-year-old. You are anything but normal, but we're delighted to have had you on this morning, Amy.

Enjoy the rest of the day. We're looking forward to what you will do next. Thank you so much. Amy Hunt there, wild and crazy life. I learned a lot, I have to say listening to her. it's not just Amy in these championships. Many women have had a great week. Joining me on the line now is BBC Sport correspondent Jane Dugel. Welcome to the programme, Jane. Great to have you with us this morning. We heard from Amy there,

who is a fascinating character. Let's also talk about her teammate, Dean Asher Smith, who was also breaking records. I know. Yes, she was. And do you know what? What really came across to me throughout the whole the weekend was just how upbeat and how much fun the female athletes were having. And do you know, beneath the surface, we don't understand what has been going on in the lead-up to these championships. I mean, listening to Amy Hunt there, what a delightful personality she has. No wonder she's one of the favorites to win BBC's sports personality of the year. But, you know, just a few years ago, she ruptured her quadriceps so badly that her mother needed to lift her out of the shower. You know,

she's suffered with mental health issues because her journey to the top while struggling to study for her degree, of course, I heard you talking about her degree at Cambridge, she had to deal with the demands of training full time and obviously juggling the two

was really difficult. One of her teammates, Dina Asha Smith, who also has a degree, incidentally, she has a Bachelor of Arts from King's College. She's suffered from injuries in the lead up to this too. She's had an Achilles injury. but she came third in the 200 metres, behind Amy's gold, of course.

So she got bronze there. She got fifth in the 100 metres, but she won gold in the 4xed real. She's won her eighth gold in these championships overall, which makes her the most successful athletes in the competition's 92-year history. It means she's got 11 medals overall at European Championships, which is just astonishing. And when you think back, her very first medal at a European championship was almost exactly a decade of code. So that's a decade of excellence. But even though she's been running at such a high level for so long,

before she ran in the 4x10 mixed, she said she was absolutely terrified. She said because she had to pass to Jeremiah Zuz. Of course, she was absolutely terrified that she was going to mess it up. And she didn't. It was such a clean race, wasn't it? Well, there's always that jeopardy, I think, when you're watching the relay. We remember. remember it when we were kids doing it ourselves, that baton can fall very easily. Okay, let's move on to the long jump. Jasmine Sawyers, let's talk about her. Yeah, Jasmine Sawyer's delight was just palpable, wasn't it?

This was her season's best performance at the long jump. And the reason why it was so lovely to watch was because she's had so many heartbreaks. She finished fourth in the Commonwealth's in Birmingham in 2022 at the same track, finishing fourth. not reaching the final the year after at the World Championships. And then she suffered what could have been a career-ending injury. She ruptured her Achilles tendon in her takeoff leg,

which is crucial for the long jump, as you can imagine. And that meant she missed the Olympics in Paris in 2024. So to come back from such a devastating injury, and at her age, she's 32 years old now, to then place second to take silver at these European championships. and she only missed first place by a centimetre. It's really incredible. And again, Jasmine, look at her face afterwards.

She was beaming with pride. And she even herself said that she didn't expect to come second, that she wasn't predicted even to reach the final. So not only to reach the final, but to come second. What a feat. What a feat, indeed. Okay, one more before I let you go. Georgia Hunter Bell also won gold in the 1,500 metres,

we continue this joyful trajectory. She made it so easy. Georgia Hunter-Brell controlled that race in 1500s and then floated past the finish line. That's her seventh international medal in two years. But what's so incredible about Georgia Hunter-Bell is her story. In 2017, she ran what she thought

was going to be her last ever race in Texas. She was on a scholarship out in America, but she just felt she'd lost her love for the sport that if she wasn't going to make it at 23, she was never going to make it. She then took an office job and for five years just worked a kind of normal average life. However, during lockdown, like a lot of us, she went out running. She rediscovered her love for it and she looked at our times and she thought, you know,

these are just as good as some of the British best at the moment. So she went back to her old coach, Trevor Painter, who incidentally also coaches Keely Hodgkinson. And she eventually went pro in 2024 just two years ago. And off the back of that, in just two years, she's won our third major international times. title of the year. She won indoor world title in March in July. She won the Commonwealth Games 800 gold and she's hoping for a fourth with the World Ultimate Championships in September. She's 32 years old. It says a lot, doesn't? It just says it's never too late. There was the timeline is on the BBC sports website which kind of goes across with basically

her taking time out and then COVID and then getting back into running. I mean, I see a movie in it, to be quite honest, Jane. I love it. Thanks so much for bringing us up to date with all that exciting news that was happening over the weekend. There is more, of course, on BBC Sport as well. Jane Dugel, the BBC Sport correspondent thanks to her and also before her to Amy Hunt. Now, as part of tonight's BBC Panorama reporter, Krupapadi, has been looking into the Child Maintenance Service. For separated parents, child maintenance payments can help cover expenses. That could be childcare to the weekly food shop, for example.

But BBC Panorama has spoken to parents who say they're missing out on thousands of pounds that they're owed. Some parents say mistakes by the system have even pushed them to breaking point. Well, to discuss further. Krupa is with me now. Good to have you in the studio, Krupa. Good morning, Nila. And also with this is Katie, who appears in tonight's program. Good morning, Katie.

Good morning. Now, Krupa, can you remind us what the child maintenance service is supposed to do? Yeah, it's really important to go back to basics on this. The child maintenance service is responsible for putting in place financial support for children when one parent does not live with them. So this is when, for whatever reason, they can't come to a private arrangement between themselves. The fundamental premise, and it might sound obvious, is that both parents have a financial responsibility towards their child. We're talking about paying parents being largely dads. 93% of paying parents are dads, therefore the majority of parents who receive that pay.

are mums and there are over 800,000 arrangements in place by the Child Maintenance Service. The first and primary role of the CMS is to establish how much money, let's say the dads need to be paying the mums and they do this by looking at HMRC records. They look at the paying parents gross weekly income and then they take a percentage of that depending on the number of children they are paying for and then calculate a monthly amount that needs to go to the receiving parent. And this money can be transferred in one of two ways. It can go directly between the mum and dad, in which case the CMS doesn't need to get involved.

But that sometimes doesn't work if there's a communication breakdown or for whatever reason. If that doesn't work, you can go on to a system called collect and pay. Collecting pay is a system where the money is transferred through the child maintenance service. But there is a charge. For a paying parent, it's an additional 20%. For a receiving parent, it's an additional 4%. So there are costs involved. The majority of people use the direct arrangement, 450,000 cases use those,

and 350,000 use the collecting pay service. So that's the basic framework in which it operates. So Katie, you are in tonight's panorama. You turned to the CMS, the Child Maintenance Service, after you split up from your former partner. Tell us what happened to you. Yeah, I did. Yeah, so I got in touch with the Child Maintenance Service,

as we couldn't come to an agreement in terms of paying maintenance. Initially, I thought it was going to be quite straightforward. Unfortunately, it wasn't. The first issue we had is that the CMS couldn't find a confident address, my ex, so they didn't even start with the calculation. I then complained to my MP. Then the DWP, the Department of Work and Pension, who controls, the CMS came back, and they said,

said that they'd found a confident address. So I started again. I got this calculation, you know, thinking, oh, great, then I'm going to be able to get some money to help, like, support, you know, me and the children. And that just hasn't been the case. No payments have come through at all. It's been a struggle. Then we went to the CMS, said that they would go to enforcement action, say that there's various things they can do.

But with me, they said that they would then get liability order. that takes months to get that through court. It was delayed once through the child maintenance services full. Then the second time, so I waited another, what, five to six months again. And then they rang me up and they said, we don't have a confident address again. So we can't do anything. So basically, if they don't have an address that they can confirm is that of your ex-partner, that's a requirement to move ahead with any of these actions.

What has the impact been on you as a family? I understand that you haven't received any money so far. No, I haven't. It's been difficult, you know, looking after two children on one salary. It's a lot. Obviously, you know, there's a lot of things to buy for children. They're constantly growing. All the things have gone up in cost.

I've, you know, had to use food banks in the past. I have to say no, a lot to my children. They can't do clubs or things that their friends doing. It's really hard. But like I said, it's just, you know, it's me paying for everything. And also that battle that continues administratively and logistically as well. Now, Krupa, clearly in many cases, the parents disagree about how much should be paid. But in Katie's case, as she's telling us, her partner isn't paying at all.

what can happen when parents try to get the system to enforce those payments? I know Katie gave us her example. Yeah. We've spoken to lots of mums in Katie's position and it's worth me sharing what the CMS has said about Katie's case. It's apologised for delays in Katie's case. It's made a consulatory payment. That's their language. And it says a verified address is required before enforcement action can proceed.

So legal notices are correctly served. And we also did approach Katie's former partner who did not respond to Panorama's questions. So Katie hasn't even got to the point of payment, as you pointed out. And various steps can be taken, should be taken on the part of the child maintenance service. First of all, you have to be within the collect and pay system that I mentioned earlier. There's lots of technical language here. So that system where the money is transferred through the child maintenance service. Once you're in that system, warnings are issued.

And then the CMS can ask an employer to take money directly from the salaries of the paying parents or they can deduct money from benefits of significantly. number of paying parents are on benefits around 40%. Now, if that doesn't work, and you heard Katie there mentioned the word liability order, lots of technical language here, the CMS can apply to the court to get a liability order, and that is essentially the recognition of that debt, and then they can be given powers to recover the money by seizing assets, possessions, etc. Now, if that liability order doesn't work, there are more options. There are sanctions that the CMS can take like the removal of passports, driving licence, even a prison sentence. But in all

honesty, those serious sanctions are used in very few cases. The questions we've been exploring Nuller is why enforcement measures in such cases like Katie's aren't rigorous enough, aren't fast enough, aren't effective enough. And a lot of it we've been learning comes down to a lack of resources and a lack of information. Indeed. And I think that first hurdle of just having a verified address underscores it as well. I want to bring Abigail Wood, who's a CEO of Gingerbread in, the charity which campaigns for a single parents. There's currently £790 million worth of unpaid maintenance.

That's money not going to children who need it. When families don't receive child maintenance, those children go without. They've told us so frequently that they are struggling to cover the costs of basics, you know, bills, food, things like that. such an effective tool at reducing child poverty. It's interesting, Gruber, on that particular aspect. And it's worth putting what she said into a bit more context. That's almost £800 million figure that she talks about is 7% of the £11 billion

in maintenance arranged by the Child Maintenance Service since it was set up in 2012. So it's a tremendous figure set to rise predicted to about a billion pounds by 2030. But part of that wider figure, which the CMS will will... share that is that is 11 billion pounds collected since 2012. And if we look at the most recent data, you know, that is also quite telling. There are 350,000 cases on the collect and pay system. In the first three months of this year,

61,000 of those cases saw no payment at all according to government data. So this is children going without a single penny. And the key question is, so why isn't maintenance being paid in the first place? as we heard, we've been contacted by lots of people like Katie. Also after a BBC Your Voice article also highlighted the problems with the CMS. One thing I do want to stress before we get into those details as to why it's not working is that there are lots of good dads who want to pay.

And the system needs to recognise the good dads who want to pay but can't pay. Because? For various reasons, because their financial situations are changing. and the system isn't keeping up with those numbers, but there are equally lots of paying parents who can pay but won't pay. And it's about a system being able to, what we're learning, distinguish between the two. The reasons we've been hearing from both sides

as to why this just isn't working, why payment isn't getting through, a lot of it comes down to calculations. As I mentioned, the CMS uses HMRC records. And we've heard from moms who say that a lot of dads are diverting their income, and so the HMRC do not have a full picture. And in cases where they don't have basic information, sometimes it's feeling like the mums have,

the onus is on them to source that additional information so that HMRC has a more full picture. But that can often be dangerous for women, especially if they've been in abusive relationships. And we have been hearing from campaigners who speak about this being an extension of abuse in some ways, the withholding of money, financial coercion, and the pressure that some mums are feeling to ensure that the HMRC and the CMS have a full picture about their ex-partners' income.

So that's one of the reasons why the calculation is definitely of concern. Communication, another huge concern. A lot of parents have spoken about being on the phone for up to an hour to speak to a caseworker, a new caseworker, having to re-explain themselves time and time again. And that's a lot if you're a single parent and you're juggling kids and you don't have that much time on your hand. And then enforcement, concerns about it just not being effective enough. As we're hearing from Katie as well.

You also spoke to the boss off the Child Maintenance Service. That's Simon Hunter. What did he have to say? So he maintained that in the vast majority cases, payments are made successfully and that compliance has been improving over the last three years. But I did ask him what he would say to a mum who is owe thousands of pounds in maintenance

and has yet to see a penny, and this was his response. We are working hard behind the scenes to try and make sure that we can facilitate regular child maintenance payments where the case might be in an enforcement, which is a very, very small percentage of our customer base. That journey can be quite an extensive period for customers to be in. And I totally accept and appreciate that if you are in that particular position, it can feel frustrating and it can feel like it's taken a long time. And he also went on to apologise to any parents suffering from mental health challenges as a result of the CMS not being effective enough.

And then the mental health challenges is something we've heard from both parents, both mums and dads. And you mentioned there indeed about the mums, of course, who are meant to be receiving payments. You've also spoken about many dads that do want to pay at times but are unhappy with the CMS. But what about Simon Hunter on that particular aspect about how it's not working for either side?

I mean, he acknowledged that mistakes have been made on both sides. And as I said, he apologized to those parents you had suffered from mental health challenges as a result of the CMS, but he continues to stress that the vast majority of customers use the service and do so without any significant problem.

The problem is, is that in those cases where it's not working, the consequences are detrimental to the well-being of children. And however small, the department may deem that to be, we're talking about the

well-being of children here. And what I have found quite interesting and what I have taken away from this, Neela, is that it's complicated enough separating from a partner when you're trying to raise a child together. That is if you're together in the first place. And the system is meant to support that process, financially at least. And what we've been hearing is that when it doesn't work, it's almost making that tension, that dynamic, even more complicated. And that's a key worry here. Just before I let you go, Katie as well, are you hopeful that things will change

as these issues are discussed more openly? I'd like to say yes, and I'm really hoping that, you know, through obviously the programme today and panorama, it will, but I just don't know. Krupa. And one thing I'll say is that the child maintenance service, it falls under the Department for Work and Pensions,

and it's adding that it's modernising the service, it's trying to progress the cases quickly, effectively. there are reforms on the table, reforms including to move all cases onto the Collect and Pay Service, another 450,000 cases being moved on to that. Campaigners are worried that the system will break with more cases and also a reduction

of those fees, but again, we don't have a clear timeline for those reforms at the moment. Really interesting, particularly when we talk about child poverty and that larger issue as well. Thanks very much to Group of Padi and also to Katie. You can see their episode of Panorama, child maintenance, parents under pressure,

that's on tonight at 8pm and also on iPlayer. And if you have been affected by anything in this discussion, you can go to the BBC Action Line where you'll find links to help and support. Lots of messages coming in about Amy. So proud of Amy Hunt's achievements. It brought tears to my eyes. Another, Amy's achievements are incredible.

I appreciate how important her routines and appearance may be to her mindset. And at the same time, women of the absolute right to participate in sports, even elite sports looking as unadorned and unquafed as they like. Correct. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform,

from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odo.com to book a demo. It's ODbolo.com. My next guest has sold over 10 million records worldwide and first capture the nation's attention as a child star in classical music. At just 12 years of age, she released her debut album. voice of an angel before branching out into pop. Away from music, she founded the Awin Project and an alternative education model,

and now she runs her own wellness retreat. Most recently, she was on her screens as a faithful on celebrity traitors. It is, of course, Charlotte Church. Good to have you with us. Over a decade, I understand you've been hosting your late night pop dungeon, so I need to know more about this. I do know it's a live music event that reflects many genres. what is a late night Pop Dungeon event?

Well, hello, lovely to be here. Thank you for having me. So I think that Pop Dungeon was born and I suppose it was really, it's sort of like our ability to mash together the best songs that have ever existed in the world with an incredible nine-piece band So it's really curated for maximum fun and maximum pressure release.

I think that, you know, music in and of itself is a very powerful tool for joy and fun. And fun is really important, particularly in these times when things are very, very heavy. And I think that we all need to sort of release that pressure. And so that is what Pop Dungeon has been designed to do. It is quite literally ecstatic. People love it. You're going for an apocalyptic theme, I heard, embarking from August 20th, going until September 20th, touring around the UK.

So what can people expect? So, yeah, we're doing a couple of festivals, a show in Liverpool, Cardiff, London and Bristol. So it's only a short tour. and yeah so I suppose people can expect like a very clockwork set of it's a lot of the songs that we do are just outside of the sort of mainstream consciousness so it's songs that you go oh my gosh I haven't heard this for ages I love this song and then we mash it up with another one of those songs that you're like oh my god and this one So in the past that has been things like, let me think, you know, Radiohead and Nirvana and Destiny's Child and Stevie Wonder. Yeah, so it has been... I like the mash-up off the cell phone coming in Charlotte. I like it a lot. But I think these are the songs that we know every word to.

I'm wondering what it's like for you because you take. making various breaks throughout musical breaks through your career. How does it feel to be back on stage? I mean, for me, I have, I suppose it's never really, I'm about to say a fallow period, but it's never really that. It's just that I'm ever, I live my life in quite an emergent way. And I really follow my nose with things. And so obviously the sort of wellness and spiritual retreat that I run.

the dreaming that has been my focus for the last three years or so, where I've been really honing I suppose my craft as a facilitator and really enjoying my work there. Also just really dedicating myself to my own spiritual path and giving time to that as well as raising my three babies who aren't so babyish anymore. But yeah, singing has always been a thread throughout it all. And I feel like that is the main part of my service, because that is the way that I sort of think about my life and my path now. It's like, I feel like I'm in service to the great mother, to great mystery. And yeah, Pop Dungeon, even, as frivolous as it may sound, I think for the people who have been to see us at Pop Dungeon, it's quite an experience. It's

quite a thing and I consider it that service too. Pop Dungeon, I mean, it could almost weave itself into celebrity traitors,

I'm thinking. There's some of the same themes going on there, dungeons and whatnot. You were on it. You were murdered midway through, Manny will remember.

I was glued to it all through that particular season. What made you want to do the show? Well, my cousin Elliot, who I work with,

was like, if you don't do it, I'm not working with you anymore. And also, the cast was amazing, you know. It was actually full of genuinely fascinating and interesting people. I tend to not do so much sort of celeb stuff. I try to keep out of it a little bit, keep myself squirrels away in Wales and just pop out now and again. But I just thought that actually this, I'm also really up for novel experiences.

I'm pretty ADHD, so novelty is a big, high up on my list. And yeah, it was, it's just quite unique, isn't it? It's quite an unusual thing to do with your time. Most definitely is. And you were a faithful, but I was wondering, could Charlotte ever have been a traitor? Would that have suited your personality? I think I could have been a traitor. yeah I think after having the experience I think it might have been more fun I thought it would be more relaxing to be a faithful but in other ways it was more stressful to be a faithful and but yeah I mean the process in general is really emotionally intensive and I consider myself pretty resilient but even for me I was like wow this is intense you know digging

your own grave is never going to be that relaxing, no matter how much you like the soil, Charlotte, as I know you do. Let's talk, you mentioned babies. Of course, they're not really babies anymore. You have two teenagers and a little one, I think that's about five or six. But I did see that your son has decided after a childhood immersed in rugby and teenagers to instead act. His name is Dexter and he made his acting debut.

How do you feel about that? I feel great about it. He's genuinely really talented and he's really dedicated as well. And so, and I think that's the bit that's really important for me. It's like if you're going to do something, like personally my values, which, you know, I'm not putting on to him at all, but one of my values is excellence, you know, like if we're going to do stuff, let's do it exquisitely to the absolute best of our ability. And so, and so he really works. He's very diligent and he's very dedicated. and I've got so much respect for him. He's an absolute joy.

Because you have talked about obviously being a child star and some of the pressures that can come from that as well. But do you feel times have changed that he's a bit more protected from the vagaries of it? Well, I think that also having a parent who has been through that potentially could lessen the, I suppose, the volatile, nature of that journey. But also, like, that's not, that's not on the cards right now for him.

He's only just starting out. He's doing, you know, little bits and bodes of auditions and, yeah, but he's, he's really talented. And so, like I said, and also, I don't know if we have that much of a choice in what our children decide to do. I don't necessarily think that we should do either. I'm very much about autonomy for young people and children. And so I would really support all of them, whatever they choose to do in whichever way I could. What was the phrase you used earlier, Charlotte, emergent, the way you live your life, emergent?

Yeah, I'm quite emergent. Another value is evolution, is just really living my way in a very accepting, emergent way. You know, you mentioned about having a parent, that has gone through it. I know your father, James, was indispensable when you were younger navigating your child fame. And I know he has had illnesses at times. You're very close to him. He was your stepfather and then adopted you. He is now your father. But I was thinking, we often hear about stepmothers in media society. We've spoken about it as Sheffield, a program

that I did with Anita. But stepfathers often don't get recognized, do they? That's an interesting question. Yeah, and I, yeah, totally. I think that my dad has been an absolute goddess send. He really has been so instrumental in my mental health and my balance and my sense of who I am and my roots. He's been an amazing support system. And yeah, and also my children, my teenagers grew up with my husband, who was their stepdad.

And yeah, I think that families are complex across the board. Where we are in society and what modernity has done to us over successive generations means that we live in a very complex web of relationships. and I think that what is being asked of us more and more, this is a bit of a generalisation, but what is being asked of us more and more is to be able to live in that grade, to be able to live in nuance and in complexity.

Things aren't, you know, in the sort of binary, very moral structured codes of which we might have lived by in the past. and so and I find that fascinating because I again another way that I live my life is really looking at this idea of biomimicry how does things how do things work in nature in the interdependent web of relationships within an ecosystem you know and how can we then look at evolution and nature as this most incredible designer like she she's had billions of years of which to design life. And so things like questions like, how does trust work in natural systems in nature?

So interesting. And what can we humans learn from, yeah, nature? We've had a few minutes with you. We've covered a lot of ground, Charlotte. But I do need to let people know that your end times pop dungeon tour will be starting on the 20th of August. You mentioned a short tour

continuing until the 20th of September. lovely speaking to you. Thanks for taking some time with us today. Thank you. Now, let us turn to a love letter to middle-aged women. Lucy Porter is about to celebrate 30 years in comedy. No, I know. 20 of those doing stand-up. Now, Lucy, you have observed a lot of women during that time and have written a book to the women who are exhausted, but also the powerful glue holding society together, I think you might say. Yes. It's called Middle Age Women Get S-H-A-A-T. Stuff. Get stuff done.

Let's just say middle-aged women get stuff done. But I want to know people if they're looking for the book. That's what you're looking for. I called it a love letter. Why was it time to profess your affection and appreciation of the middle-aged woman? Oh, it absolutely is a love letter, no, really. It sort of came about just because I was meeting so many amazing women. And you do look at middle-aged women who are the backbone of society

at a time when we're worried about our own bones, quite frankly. And women are not doing most of the... They're caring, paid and unpaid. They're keeping retail going. They're keeping so many industries together. And I just thought it would be lovely to write something that is quite celebratory and also just quite fun and quite silly and just quite joyful about being middle age.

I'm speaking to a lot of women this morning that have a lot of strings to their bow. You know, whether it was Amy Hunt at the top or whether it's Charlotte Church, you have a lot of strings to your bow. In addition to the stand-up, we know you as a regular on Radio 4, as a panelist, as a host, as a writer. love a quiz. You've been hosting currentish about stories people are talking about. And your book is so, it's very funny, but it's also full of these acute observations. And I was wondering, do you make notes as you go through life in your various roles? Yeah, well, I suppose the Linda's

thing that I think you referenced at the top of the show is I just was doing so many, I host a lot of awards. I'm very lucky I get to host everything from the refrigeration awards to the recruitment awards, all of these great things. And every time I turn up, if there is a woman about my age with a clipboard, I'm like, oh, thank goodness. Oh, we're in safe hands here. Linda's here. We've got a Linda because I just kept meeting these women and thinking it is incredible

that they hold together these events and it isn't just about logistics. It's not just about being amazing and competent and capable, which they are. But it's also about the years of experience they've accumulated and the emotional intelligence. And Linders know that when you get a group of people together, for an event, it is like having toddlers in a room. Like, you know, people need to be reminded to go to the toilet. And there's always someone coming up to you going, oh, I don't want to eat that, but I can't eat this.

And I want to sit next to my friend. And the lenders of this world are just unflappable. Yeah, that is the word. I've met many of them as well, probably also mediating, you know, some events like you do, Lucy. But they don't get their props. I say they don't get their flowers, but actually they do get flowers.

That's all they get. That's it. But they don't get the recognition and respect. You know, I was calling out for some this morning, but they're too busy to actually message me and take a bow. This is the big problem that I've written a book for the demographic of people who are too busy to read it because it's aimed at middle-aged women. And it's like, when do I get time to sit there?

You know what? It's a quick read. It's really funny. You know, take that moment and do it. You can dip in. You can dip in for reassure. Because I also wanted it to be quite reassuring because a lot of it is very autobiographical. And it's about how terrible.

I am at keeping all the plates spinning. But I think we are often told to be grateful. You've got to practice gratitude. You've got to sort of think about other people less fortunate. Which is absolutely true. But I do think that a little bit of self-pity, you don't want to wallow in self-pity, but you can take a refreshing dip in it.

I think self-congratulation as well. Linda's in the office may not always be middle age, says a listener. I've been a young Linda. Well, thank you, Linda. And there are male linders. They're Simons. Well, I want to talk about gender, actually. It's a woman's hour.

You spoke about Lindas. Then you also mention the Karen's, which you call a gendered slur, because there is no male equivalent. Yeah, there's no, oh, you're being such a Brian, aren't you? If men are being complaining or whinging, then they consider assertive and bold. And I just think it's, Karen is one of those things that came out of, I think, quite a good instinct to sort of check women who are being unreasonable. But then it has become this stick to beat people with. And I also have a lot of friends called Karen. So I do enjoy saying, oh, Karen, you're being such a Karen.

But I do find it. I'd rather we talked about linders than Cairns. And I suppose Cairns as well, it could be gender slurred, but also ageist in some ways because certain names are within certain periods as well. Oh, and you do get that stuff of like, I was in the gym recently, and someone said, oh, old witch. And I was like, that is such an interesting thing that you get that as a middle-aged woman. Oh, she's an old witch.

And you think, God, that's as a tale as old as times. And meant to be terrible. You do have a section on spells, I should say. I am leaning into the witchiness. Why not? You want to popularise the idea of the curse to overcome everyday misogyny or dismissiveness. Hang on a second now. If I'm quick, I might be able to get what.

Well, I kind of, yeah, I think that if you're going to mutter something under your breath, it's nice to make it a good fulsome old curve. Frog spawn and Wolfsbane together are cooked. May the meeting room you wanted by another be booked. There's one for a Monday morning. But there was one part that gave me pause as well. You highlight the domestic martyrdom. some women practice and find tricky to give up.

What have you learned? Well, I felt this was a bit that I felt really weird about writing because I sort of did have to admit that I kind of think, when things are messy in the house, there's a bit of me that thinks, oh, that's my job. That's, you know, and like my husband isn't as bothered, just because, and I know because he sits playing the banjo

while the house is falling to rack and ruin around us. But, yeah, and I just think there is a bit of a sense that I wonder whether sometimes I'm doing stuff. for other people to kind of make them feel guilty or just because I want to be needed and loved. And I just thought it's quite interesting to talk about that because, you know, there is that sense of, oh, I'll just do it myself.

Like the little red hen. I don't know if you ever remember that tale. It was like a kid's book and it was like this little red hen who was female who would just do everything herself because she couldn't get anybody else to do it. And it's, I suppose, an expansion on that idea that some women won't let it go, which I thought was really interesting.

I like being the one who knows where the paper clips are and stuff. I kind of feel sometimes as much as it annoys me when my kids are like wearing my headphones, there is a bit of kind of I know where they're. Yeah, a sense of control or power or whatever we want to call it. This does relate to the middle of the tour that you're in at the moment. Let yourself go, it's called, about these issues. The title is so interesting to me, particularly in a world where it can be hard to avoid messages to optimize yourself, for example. Oh, looks max.

It does a bit of that in your book. book as well. But where do women particularly engage with the show? What are the issues where, you know, you're on stage and you see, aha, this is like... Well, the whole thing came out with the fact that I was doing a TV appearance and somebody had written on social media, oh, she's let herself go. And I did think it's such an interesting phrase because when you're young and someone says, oh, she's let herself go. You think, well, yeah, she's having a great time. And then when you're my age, it's like, well, she's lying on a slanket on the sofa covered in biscuit crumbs, which is how I spend most of my time. But it's been really interesting because women have, I think there is so much

pressure and I'm sure, you know, previous generations had it, but I think we get it in spades with social media of should I be having Botox and fillers? Should I not be doing that? And my line is always that I don't have Botox and fillers because I think you get to an age where you have to decide whether you want to look tired or surprised. Yes. And I've gone for tired, but surprised it's an equally valid option. But it's just nice to talk about these things without judgment. And I was talking to another woman the other day and she said, well, I do have stuff done because I view my body and face

as like a national trust property that I must keep up for the nation. And I was like, well, that's perfectly valid too. And it is quite nice. When I do my shows, people come up and they want to chat about all kinds of things, but that recurs. The woman going on a slightly different tangent,

the Women and Equality's Committee, is examining the experiences of women in live comedy, including exploring the barriers and the challenges. It's also considering the expectations. extent and nature of abuse and harassment in the sector. I'd be curious for your thoughts on that because I mentioned it's coming up to 30 years in comedy. You went to you doing stand-up. I've seen some changes in that time.

Yeah, I mean, when I started doing comedy, there were very few women. I've just come back from the Edinburgh Fringe, which was a delight and a joy. And when I used to go up there when I was young, I would see the trailblazers like Joe Brand and Jenny Eclare, Donna McPhail. And, you know, these people who just really, I was like, this is amazing. I can see women on stage and it makes me want to do it. And now there's good and bad. I think that there are so many more.

I saw some amazing shows by women. Susie McCabe is doing a show called Coming of Raid. She's been on. She's great. Yeah, fantastic. And like Emma Doran, who I know. Yes, I was also being on. Yeah.

And Sophie Duker, who's got some amazing stuff about women and comedy in her shows. And there are so many women doing stuff. But, yeah, I mean, it's still hard. There's still sleazy men who hang around. And I think in many ways it's harder for young women because travel is so expensive. you know, it's just a precarious lifestyle and you can't afford to get taxis because the wages haven't gone up

but the costs have. It's all in her book. Lucy Porter, a middle-aged woman who gets stuff done. Thank you. A manifesto, a love letter. Call it what you will. It's a great read and really fun. Thanks so much for coming in. Thank you so much.

I need to let people know. BBC investigation into IVF treatment in Northern Cyprus tomorrow. And the most beautiful book, The Left Behind Child will also speak about it on tomorrow's program. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Greg Jenner. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. And we are back for a 12th series. Everyone in that film is wearing their own pants. We're joined by comedians like Kyle Smith Bino and Desiree Birch.

Can't see how this would go wrong. We'll meet many medieval saints. Motivational speaker saint. With a like a sort of Madonna head mic on. We're doing a history of, underwear plus there's loads more you're dead to me listen on BBC sounds