Woman's Hour - R J Palacio, Dr Nneka Ikeogu, Rajini Vaidyanathan, Dr Radikha Vohra and Dr Jo Mountfield

Episode Date: July 18, 2022

American author R J Palacio talks to Krupa Padhy about her latest novel "White Bird" Following the overturning of Roe V Wade in the US more women have talked openly about having had an abortion but many never speak openly about their experiences. In a series first broadcast in 2019 we hear five different personal testimonies from women. Today, a woman we are calling Amanda who only came to terms with her abortion 25 years later.How can learning your child’s ‘love language’ help you become a better parent? Child and Educational Psychologist, Dr Nneka Ikeogu, talks us through the 5 languages of love and explains how children give, and receive, love using them.We hear from the BBC’S South Asia Correspondent Rajini Vaidyanathan about how the economic crisis in Sri Lanka is affecting families across the countryAnd how do women's bodies respond to extreme heat? We talk to GP Dr Radikha Vohra and Dr Jo Mountfield from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Gayl GordonPicture Credit: Heike Bogenberger

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. For some of you, you may be in the company of your children this morning if their school is shut because of the heat. For others, the summer holidays may have started. Either way, over the next few weeks, many of us are going to be spending more time with the young people in our lives, and we're going to be communicating with them a lot more. Child

psychologist Nneka Iggyurgu will tell us about the different languages of love that children might need from us. And on the subject of extreme heat, how does it impact our bodies, especially the female body? We're going to learn about the consequences of this weather on pregnancy, on menopause, on periods and more with the help of two experts on hand to share their top tips. Do get in touch if you have a question for them or an experience that you would like to share with them. You can text Women's Hour on 84844 over on social media. You'll find us on the handle at BBC Women's Hour on Instagram, on Twitter. And of course, you can email us through our website. We'll also head to Sri Lanka and hear from our South Asia correspondent

about what the economic crisis means for women there. And we'll be joined by the author of the successful children's novel, Wanda. Ten years on, the sequel to Wanda is out soon. RJ Palacio will tell us more. But first, it's what everyone's talking about at the moment. Well, certainly if you live in parts of the UK hit by this severe heat. If you take a look at the map of the UK, there is this big U-shaped heat wave going on from Manchester down to London and then back up to the East Midlands and reaching up to York as well. The Met Office is warning that some of the areas impacted could hit 38 or 40 degrees Celsius, which is 104 Fahrenheit, and the same could happen tomorrow. We want to hear from you at home about how you are affected. You're already getting in touch. Carol Winifred on Instagram says coping terribly and just tested positive for COVID. High temperature in my body, high temperature outside of my body. Carol, we do wish you well. We've never experienced something like this before in this country. And we've been told to look out for the vulnerable, the elderly and children, of course.

But pregnant women should also be careful. And we have Dr. Jo Mountfield, vice president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. But first, to talk about how women's bodies specifically respond to severe heat in general. I'm joined from Surrey by Dr Radhika Vora, an NHS and private GP educator and women's health specialist. Welcome to the programme, Dr Radhika. Thank you. Thank you, Krupa. It's lovely to speak to you. It's good to have you on and your expertise. Let's start with periods.

Can the symptoms of periods be more severe in extreme heat? I think they can but actually like you mentioned heat to this extent is something very new so we need to see how this pans out but definitely women can feel worse when they're on their period in hot weather for lots of reasons it could be down to hydration it could be down to movement it could be down to how they feel with the sanitary products there particularly pads can feel more uncomfortable so there's lots and lots of reasons and particularly this time of year if it's younger women if they're having activities and sports and holidays it can all get so much more uncomfortable for them. And so in this case is it about the stress of the heat and the impact

that can have on how we manage our periods or Or is it about the actual bodily changes that heat can bring about when you're on your period? Yeah, no, very good question. I think it's an element of both, and it's so individual. I think generally when it's hot weather, we're inclined to want to drink different things or eat differently and possibly have, it's a reminder to have plenty of water. And hydration is so important it's about sipping throughout the day rather than drinking in one bulk particularly looking at the type of foods you're having so cold foods such as salads and cold dishes might be much better than

hot fried food or spicy food that can make a big difference and also one of the biggest culprits in increasing heat and period discomfort can be alcohol. And sometimes it's quite easy for women and everyone to associate warm weather with having a drink. And particularly if you're in heat, wear a hat, that can make a difference. But also being outdoors and drinking can definitely make you feel more uncomfortable and dehydrated. You talk about drinking more water, but certainly when I'm on my periods, I feel a lot more bloated and I can only think that drinking more makes that worse. I think drinking more depends on what you drink. If it's caffeine drinks or alcohol can actually make bloating much worse. Sometimes we crave comfort foods, such as carbs and a bit more sugar when you're on your period. And that's quite natural natural it's just trying to keep that in check with how you're diluting that with water and you can flavor water using fruits or flavor teas or something like that and that can make a huge difference but just ensuring you're getting enough cold water and sipping it throughout the day and I think for the

vast majority of us it's difficult to drink enough water in a day particularly like you mentioned with school being out day trips needing a loo all these factors have a role and women often are reluctant to need use public loos or need a loo very often when they're outdoors so it's really important to try and there's so many plates to spin isn't there and it is difficult juggling balls all the time let Let's bring you in, Dr. Jo Mountfold, and talk about pregnancy. I mean, pregnancy is testing in that last trimester, even at the best of times. Women who are in their last trimester, is it riskier? What are the key concerns? So, absolutely. It does put an extra strain on your physiology when you're pregnant. Your heart physiology changes, your lungs change, you breathe differently, and your physiology when you're pregnant. Your heart physiology changes,

your lungs change, you breathe differently, and that's because you're doing your best to grow your baby at the same time. So yes, there is absolutely pressure on your system when you are pregnant. Now, most fit, healthy women actually manage this extremely well, but obviously the heat can put, in the same ways when you're not pregnant, the heat can add an extra layer of stress to this. So, for example, if you become often women have a low blood pressure when they're pregnant. Again, that's a very normal thing that happens when you're during the pregnancy. It's a physiological response. And if you're dehydrated, you can drop your blood pressure even further. That means you're more prone to fainting. And clearly, if if you faint and fall over that's really not good for your baby either so um and overheating

of course um you know you've already got we use we um laugh and say you've got inbuilt central heating when you have your baby inside and of course that is absolutely true um but when it's really really hot that doesn't help uh either so it is the same advice for women who are pregnant, who are not pregnant in terms of keeping well hydrated, trying to stay cool. Certainly, I would not advise women in these sorts of high temperatures to be out doing vigorous exercise at the later stages of pregnancy or at any stage of pregnancy. If it's really hot outside and you're doing vigorous exercise you will overheat and it's probably for the next couple of days just give it a rest or do something inside in the air conditioning but don't do it outside in the heat. Stay in certainly and we've been seeing these reports in recent weeks which I do want to flag up to you that the chances of a miscarriage are greater in the summer months, especially in extreme heat.

What do you make of that? Well, yes, I've read the studies as well from different parts of the world where there is an increase. Statistically, there seems to be an increased risk of miscarriage. There isn't anything that any of us can do about that. We can't make the place colder. And this is, you know, it's not that I think for the next two days, suddenly lots and lots of women are going to have a miscarriage who wouldn't have had a miscarriage. This is a, you know, a two day phenomenon and we're going to get cool again. So I think people just need

to not panic too much about this. Be sensible. Yes, we know that if you've got a temperature when you're pregnant and certainly in the early stages of pregnancy, that it's good to try and get your temperature down because that can increase your risk of miscarriage. But I think don't panic is the bottom line. Stay cool, stay inside and hopefully everything will be absolutely fine. This is a short term thing, not a longer term prolonged problem with heat. It is important to have that context from you as well. So from periods and pregnancy, Radhika, let me bring you back in and let's talk about menopause. How might the menopause be impacted by coping in extreme heat?

It's so difficult, isn't it? Because menopausal women or perimenopausal women are already feeling really warm most of the time so this heat is adding a whole element of complexity to how they're going to cope. It's very individual for many women it's about going back to the basics of wearing loose fitting clothing, hydration, using cool water or cool towels on their particularly their hot areas like the wrists and the back of the neck can really help um wearing cotton can make a difference or linen but i think it's about like we just discussed putting it into context that it's going to be a short-lived phenomenon but it can be very

uncomfortable to sleep so using fans and some women have even gone to the point of using chilled sheets asleep in so that can make a difference you can chill them either with just dampening them with water or just in a fridge or in a freezer for a short while definitely not frozen but chilled can make a difference and the other thing to think about is just generally protecting your if you are on HRT is thinking about how you're storing your medication and keeping that sensibly stored because it should be under 25 degrees ideally. We've had this listener getting in touch with us saying UTIs haven't been mentioned. Please warn women that they are more at risk of a UTI in the heat or the more reason to drink

plenty of water. Who'd like to take that one? I can speak to that if you'd like me to. Go ahead. So essentially, you know, obviously UTIs can be more common in pregnancy as well. That's certainly a well-known association there. And this is about, again, it's back to being well hydrated and emptying your bladder regularly. And that's likely to then reduce the chances of you getting a urinary tract infection. So this comes back to just remembering to drink. I'm not saying you have to drink gallons and gallons, because sometimes we see some women who actually go the opposite way and drink far too much. And it actually can make you unwell to

drink too much. The salts can go and your blood can go haywire if you overdo it. So it's getting a nice balance enough so that you're peeing regularly, basically. Really important. Message of the day, pee regularly. Noites has been in touch to say, I'm attending my master's graduation today and I'm not looking forward to wearing that synthetic gown. Plus, I came on my period this morning. Or rather, Donna, her handle is Noites. And of course, Dr. Radhika, you were talking about wearing cotton more.

But I don't think Donna has much of a choice there wearing that gown also this message coming in saying I'm pregnant and a GP I feel it's slightly hypocritical telling women to stay at home when I'm heading to work tomorrow after doing the school drop-off however I know the dangers are real so I'll be taking all the precautions but I'm still worried about how things will go tomorrow and that's an important point isn't it for some people there isn't that choice to stay at home there are kids to pick up there are kids to tend to there are there's work to be getting on with yeah no there certainly is and I think that that's why for every individual

it's a different situation there are some simple things you can do ensure you carry water ensure you you're carrying a sun hat can make a huge difference keeping your head covered and if you can even if you don't have air conditioning being indoors having some degree of ventilation some employers have been wonderful like you know we've had messages to say where you can wear your own looser clothing in terms of uniform can be quite difficult and they're not all buildings sadly have air conditioning we're just not prepared for this degree of heat on a regular basis at the moment which I think is something that in the future if this continues we need to look at I just wanted to add a point about UTI one of the most significant things also is to avoid

with synthetic chemicals or pool water UTI risk can increase so it's just avoiding over washing yourself and over douching in the vaginal area and also thinking about vaginal lubricants which there's some fantastic types available which are not organic and low chemical and fragrance based can make a huge difference because that's one of the things that we end up doing we end up showering more often in the heat and we just don't need to over rinse our vaginal area at all. Okay Dr Radhika Vohra and Dr Jo Mountford, we appreciate you joining us here on Women's Hour and bringing us your expertise.

Now, this time last week, many of you would have seen images of protesters being tear-gassed and scenes of people storming the presidential palace in Sri Lanka. Protests began back in April after people in the country were concerned about the mismanagement of the economy. The country is going through an unprecedented financial crisis and over the years it had built up a huge amount of debt which led it last month to becoming the first country in the Asia-Pacific region in 20 years to default on foreign debt. As a result of the mass protest, President Gotabaya Rajapaksa fled the country

and he formally resigned with an acting president being put in place. Families are struggling to feed themselves and are unable to access medicine and fuel because of the economic turmoil. The BBC's South Asia correspondent Rajini Vaidyanathan, who has been following the ongoing situation and witnessed the scenes at the palace joins us now to tell us a bit more about how the situation in Sri Lanka

is impacting families across the country. Good to have you with us Rajini. For those who don't know just tell us a bit more about the background to this story and what things have been like over the past few months. I mean, in short, this is a cost of living crisis that has really kind of spiralled out of control. As you mentioned already, we are seeing families we have for months struggling to get food. Food prices have absolutely soared. Just to give you an example, when I first started covering the crisis in April, the price of an apple had tripled since the start of the year. When I was back more recently to cover the story in June, it had gone up by five times. Food inflation is around 80%. I mean,

that is just unthinkable. So you've got families, middle class families who are suddenly plunging into poverty because they simply can't afford the basics. Also, you may have seen footage, I've reported on it myself, of fuel queues that just go on for miles and miles because they've run out of petrol in the country and diesel. But not just, you know, fuel for vehicles. And this is where it affects women in particular. Also cooking gas. So you see long queues of people waiting to get kerosene and other cooking gas, just so that they can cook on a gas cooker. Because, you know, a lot of people in South Asia rely on canisters to cook their meals. And so now a lot of families having to resort to cooking on an open wood fire, which isn't something they would necessarily have been accustomed to. So that's how it's sort of affecting people. Also, just very

quickly, another way that I've certainly seen firsthand, which particularly affects women as well, is medical supplies. There's medical shortages in many hospitals. I was on a maternity ward recently, neonatal ward, saw babies who are struggling to get the basic medicines, even pregnant women. The nutritional supplements that they need when they're in the last stages of their pregnancy are also in short supply. And I spoke to the chairman of the Perinatal Association in Sri Lanka, who said that they're struggling for the basics like breathing tubes. And he's made an appeal actually on social media once again, calling for people around the world because they're surviving on donations so I mean that should just paint some of a picture of just how much this country's economy is on its knees. It certainly does and it's a proud nation isn't it I mean when you talk about the hospital care there

specifically this is a country that has prided itself on having some incredibly sound hospital systems in place isn't it yeah i mean it was seen at one point um you know i mean some context again listeners will probably be aware but you know after the country civil war ended um the economy really did start to boom people were seeing it as the new singapore of asia a lot of tourism poured into the country a lot of investment. And as you mentioned, though, when you unpick some of that now, some of it was loans, over borrowing from countries, not just China, although China's talked about a lot, but other countries. And it was excessive borrowing a lot of the time for projects that didn't really pay back. And so this sort of

economic success story ended up becoming a real failure. And that's what we're seeing on the ground now. But as you rightly say, things like the country's healthcare system, a free healthcare system, you know, which doctors pride themselves on now really on the brink. You talk about the economic success at one point. And so much of that, in part, has been driven by women. If you look at those top sectors, textiles, tea, tourism, which only leads me to think that women have been acutely impacted by this economic crisis in terms of jobs and livelihoods. Completely. Thinking of so many of the women I've met in the last few months of covering this

crisis, I think of Yamuna, who I met in a fishing community and went to her house on a Saturday morning. And it was heartbreaking. We were interviewing her. And then at one point, her young daughter tapped her on the shoulder and whispered in her ear. And I said, what did she just say to you? She said she told me she's hungry. Yamuna's family is one of many who are skipping meals now so the family weren't having breakfast um because they're basically now cooking one meal not with any fresh produce i might say it's mostly dry sort of rice and lentils things that are cheaper to get because the apple

that i talked about for example that's now become a luxury item um a bit of a bit more context here is that you know as many of our listeners know s, Sri Lanka is a small island and it therefore has to import most of its basic essentials, not just fuel, but much of its produce as well. And so people are struggling now. And Yamuna had to finish the interview by 10 in the morning because she works as a cleaner in a house. And so she had to leave with three or four other ladies who were waiting outside to go with her. And then she said she spent the whole day working. The family would give her food, but she would feel guilty eating when her children didn't have any food. So she wouldn't always eat at work. When she finished work, she would then run to a fuel queue to see if she could queue up and get any kerosene to maybe get some cooking gas so she could actually cook a hot meal for her family. She said she sometimes come home at three in the morning, and then the whole cycle would happen

again. Now, her husband used to have a job as a labourer, a daily wage labourer, as we call it in South Asia. But a lot of those jobs now have stopped because of the economy slowing down. So often you're finding women are now the main earners in families too. But as you say, it's really impacting women because of what's happening at home, not being able to provide food for their families and not being able to cook it in the way they would normally do. So some of those simple things, I think sometimes it's really nice to be able to talk about it now on a program like Women's Hour, because when you're doing the big story for the news, sometimes you don't get to talk about some of the finer details that you can relate to anywhere in the world not being able to cook a hot meal for your family not being able to get fresh fruit and vegetables because they are seen as luxuries now i'm talking about skipping meals i was speaking to a doctor last week who in inside sri lanka at one of the main hospitals there and he was telling me that he fears that within six months that country could be seeing an acute crisis when it comes to anemia as well because

the long-term health implications of skipping meals they are serious aren't they? Completely this reminds me of another conversation I had a couple of weeks ago on a previous reporting trip from the last weeks where I was at a food kitchen it had only opened a month ago almost everyone there was a woman actually they were there with their families their young children and for some of them that would be the only meal they would have all day it was only set up a month ago and since then it's absolutely um you know tripled in terms of the number of people who want to go and get food so they're having to turn people away um and you know sort of community kitchens like this are the only way people can get hot and fresh food.

And I later that day interviewed the head of the UN, UNICEF in Sri Lanka, who said that if they don't get the funds that they need, there could be a humanitarian crisis around the corner and a malnutrition crisis. Because, as you rightly say, it's not just that people aren't eating food properly. They're not eating healthy and nutritious food, which is is obviously essential particularly for the growth of young children. Can I ask you a question about your personal reporting because last week you were the main correspondent at the scene of some incredible events unfolding that storming of the presidential palace the appointment of that acting president as well not not very well received. And when you were inside those quarters, you look like you were possibly the only or one of the few women inside,

a sea of angry men exploring that area. Of course, there are women protesting. We do know that. But there specifically, those incredible scenes, what was that like for you? So there's two things to distinguish. But there specifically, those incredible scenes, what was that like for you? So there's two things to distinguish. So I went to the presidential palace a week ago on Sunday, the day after it had been occupied by protesters. And we also those videos being shared around the world of people jumping into the swimming pool. That was actually taken by a BBC fixer of ours. And he was very brave of him to go on that day and get that footage for us.

We then arrived a day later we went to the presidential palace while it was kind of quote unquote as i say occupied and what was remarkable about that particular instance was just how it become a tourist site and so there were thousands of people streaming into the gates and a lot of them in that particular instance because it was a day after the so-called occupation, were families, lots of women, lots of young children who were roaming around, seeing how, you know, the country's elite had lived, you know, wandering around the bedrooms and kitchens, swimming pool as well, and taking a look at life for the political establishment in Sri Lanka. So that was one thing. On Wednesday, which is what we saw on the news as well, I've done reports, obviously, throughout the last week,

but on Wednesday, we were with protesters as they were trying to storm the Prime Minister's office. So they'd already occupied, I think, three or four buildings, and they were then trying to occupy the Prime Minister's office because they feel that the Prime Minister, who's now been made the acting president, Ranil Wickramasinghe, should also go. As you mentioned in your introduction, the president, Gotabaya Rajapaksa, has now fled the country and resigned. But they also have set their sights on Ranil Wickramasinghe. So we were with a sea of protesters. Now, you're absolutely right. In that case, most of them were men. But, you know, we were tear gassed. It was quite a tense, tense scene outside.

It was a kind of standoff where the protesters would try and surge through the gates. They would be met by resistance, armed police, members of the security forces, a massive human barricade of people there trying to guard the entrance. And then at some point, after lots of volleys of tear gas and water cannons we were able to go through i mean we followed the protesters as they went through and they were able to kind of breach the gates what i will say is i still saw a lot of women and when we did some interviews um for the six and ten o'clock news and for radio for and other outlets one of the first people i interviewed was actually a young girl and she was with her mum uh and that was in our ten o'clock news report and

so actually what was quite striking is maybe you know the people at the front pushing through were mostly men I must say but actually once we were in I was quite shocked actually to sort of speak to you know three generations of a family who were inside who were women so it has been a quite sort of gender diverse movement in many ways people say this has been a moment for the country to sort of come together because remember as i mentioned before this was a country that was deeply divided um in decades of civil war the majority sinhalese community the tamil minority community and even the muslim minority community very divided and now in a way you know everyone sort of come together against the establishment

but it is worth noting that a lot of the people I've interviewed through the course of my reporting have actually been female protesters and female journalists, which has actually been quite interesting to sort of note for South Asia just how much the women's voice has been very strong in this. And it just shows how every sector of society there has been impacted. Thank you so much. Rajini Vaidyanathan, our South Asia correspondent, speaking to me there about what is going on in Sri Lanka. In 2019, we asked our listeners, have you had an abortion? How did you feel about it then? And how do you feel about it now? The response was huge and powerful. Since Roe v. Wade was overturned by the Supreme Court in the U.S. last month, more women have spoken about their experiences, but many never do. Henrietta Harrison spoke to five women for this series first broadcast in 2019. And though the terminology might have changed, their personal testimony seems ever more relevant in the current climate. And thank you to everyone who contacted us after we broadcast Claire's story on Wednesday last week. She told us about having an abortion in rural Scotland more than 30 years ago. It's clear that these stories really do resonate. We're now going to hear from a woman in her 60s and we're calling her Amanda. She became pregnant in the

early 1970s and it happened when she was on holiday in Europe with her boyfriend when she was 21. I was on a remarkable holiday with someone I was very much in love with and we didn't take any care really. I have to tell the truth about that. We were young lovers. We were at university together. I was older than him by two years. He was still in his teens. We were very, very happy and very romantic as well. The thought of getting pregnant had never crossed my mind and it didn't worry me at all at that point. Because you were just happy in the moment.

I was in love. So can you just take me through how you found out you were just happy in the moment. I was in love. So can you just take me through how you found out you were pregnant and how you felt when you found out? I had this strange insight that I actually was pregnant at the time, almost the moment it happened. I think within about 48 hours I was sure I was pregnant. And worried then? Not initially. Initially we had a kind of romantic ideal that we might not take the train all the way home, we might get off and make a life in the countryside

with our little child. And it was ridiculously romantic. But we got back and my period didn't come and my period didn't come twice. So I knew. Can you remember how you were feeling then? I was very aware of what had happened because of my own personal situation. I had a father who had brought me up. My mother had died when I was a child and he was extremely strict, extremely strict. And I knew that was just no way that he would actually be able

to cope with having a child around. So I think I allowed myself to be focused on the needs of these two men, rather than my needs and what I truly wanted and realised that what was right for them was that I had an abortion so I didn't think that what I wanted mattered what mattered was keeping things right with them and for them. So this was the 1970s so it was only a few years after abortion had become legal in 1967. So what actually happens then? How do you actually get a termination in the 1970s? Well, in my case, I was at university, so I returned to the student medical services.

And in those days, you had to see two doctors. They were two male doctors and they asked you all sorts of questions and again made me feel quite small. There wasn't a great deal of sympathy or indeed empathy from those doctors. It was that I had to see them. I had to go through this procedure. Things had to be ticked on a sheet of paper and eventually, oh well, yes, go on then, you can have an abortion. It wasn't a positive thing for me.

It was definitely, I was seen as somebody who had to be processed. Where did you actually have the procedure? It was paid for, was it? It was private? No, it was NHS procedure and it was in a local hospital. He was with me when I woke up and I pretty quickly descended into quite a, I wouldn't say depressed time, but a very, very low time. And one of the things that happened for me internally was that, not physically, but in a spiritual way, I felt opening up inside me an enormous gap, a very dark place inside, following the termination. And again, I wasn't able to share

it with anybody but him, and he couldn't cope with it. So I had to close down and just deal with it myself. Can you put into words that sort of darkness that you felt? Guilt and shame were there. One of the things that I did immediately, I returned to my own digs at university, was open my cupboard and remove from it the best clothes that I had. I happened to have some really lovely things at that time and I proceeded to put them in a black plastic sack and take them to a second-hand shop and get rid of them. So I was punishing myself because, yes, I guess I felt guilty and ashamed but I couldn't share that with anybody. I couldn't tease those feelings out. So it was all part of this

morass of darkness which seemed to be inside me. How long would you say those feelings related to the termination went on? Well they were very acute throughout the summer and into the autumn and then university terms started again and I think I had to put them in the background. I didn't tell any of the friends that I shared accommodation with what had happened to me but it was there and lingering. I had a sense that I knew who this person was that I had terminated. It felt like a person to me, not just a collection of cells. I sensed that it was female. And over the years, indeed, I never let go of the fact that I knew what age the child would be on its birthday as it came round. And indeed, even now, I mean,

I know that the child would be something like 45 years old. So the imprint of the memory, both in my body and in my soul really it was really very strong you said that there was this depression and this darkness but in some ways you have come to terms with the termination more recently can you can you explain how you've managed to do that? Yeah. 20 years ago, I was working with a very, very helpful person who I did share my history with. And he was able to take me through almost a ritual of letting go and it was a deep and meditative thing but it was also very focused on what what it was that was clinging to me and um helpfully and surrounded in this case by prayer by the end of it I felt that the presence of this person, this soul, was no longer with me. And it gave me huge relief.

But that had taken more than 25 years to get to. Some people do see an abortion, a termination, as the removal of a collection of cells. But you felt and you feel like you ended a life. I wouldn't put it that way. I didn't end a life or kill anybody. I didn't murder anybody. But there was a soul with me at one moment and then there wasn't. It left me.

You obviously found it very difficult to come to terms with your choice to have a termination or perhaps it wasn't even your choice. But do you think that was purely internal or were there some sort of outside forces that were making you feel more ashamed? You were brought up with faith, weren't you? Yes, I was brought up in a Christian family and that was a faith that I adhered to marginally at that time but of course it formed me it's what had formed me. I wouldn't say though it was the faith that oppressed me after the termination it was actually my helplessness my sense of being unable to do anything about this because of the way things were, because there were two men

who were so powerfully influential in my life that their needs had to come absolutely before mine. And also the fact that it was still pretty shameful to have a child outside marriage. I only knew of one person at the university who was trying to do their degree and bring up a child without being married. You know, early 70s, it was still pretty unacceptable in society as a whole. You went on after university to have a public role in the church. We can't say exactly what you've done because it identifies you. How did your faith help or hinder I suppose is the question? I think that it wasn't until later life that my faith really

was a help in letting go. It was with this moment of letting go that I did with a friend and a declaration essentially that there is not punishment waiting for me. There is only love and love is present right now and that's what underpins everything. Even I understood that love was with me even when I was making that horrendous decision and that I'm no less loved now than I was at the beginning of my life and that the child or the conception that I had is no less loved than it was then. So that is something I grew into. My faith grew enormously through the process of letting go And it also informed how I helped people who came to me who perhaps had been through the same situation or who had had other losses. It very much helped me to just hold them and allow them

to do whatever they needed to do. Pro-life campaigners say that what you did was a wicked thing to do. How do you respond to their campaigns? But I don't do that anymore. I just feel that walking alongside people and understanding their situations with love is far more important than standing in judgment over them. that they need to judge people who have had terminations, then that's where they happen to be. Do you regret what you did? I regret my inability to trust people, my inability to open up and perhaps find some support and help and somebody to really listen to me before the date of my termination. That's what I regret. But I've only been enabled to do that as I've grown. If the 21-year-old girl came to you now, what would you say to her?

I would listen. I would listen. I would listen. And help her to find the right way forward for herself. And that was the reporter Henrietta Harrison speaking to a lady that we are calling Amanda. For a list of organisations offering support, please do visit the BBC Action Line website at bbc.co.uk forward slash action line. There is also an article on our website pulling together the five personal experiences from this series. Next time, we'll be hearing from a woman who felt that having another child was impossible and that an abortion was the only choice for her and her family. Lots of you have been getting in touch in reaction to that moving interview.

This one from Bev on Twitter. She writes, A beautiful interview expressing how I felt too for years after a termination and still do to an extent. Please do keep your messages coming in to us. Next, RJ Palacio is an American author and graphic designer. She's written several novels for children, including the bestselling Wonder, which is now celebrating its 10th anniversary. Wanda tells the story of Oggy, a young boy who has facial abnormalities, and he just wants to fit in at school. It challenges

readers, both young and old, about empathy, compassion and acceptance. In the story, Julian is Oggy's class bully. In its sequel, White Bird, which is to be released as a film later this year, Julian is sent to live with his grandmother who teaches him the importance of courage and the power of kindness. Happy to say, RJ joins me now. Good to have you on Women's Hour, RJ. Thank you so much for having me.

I really appreciate it. For those who have not read Wonder, can you tell us about Oggi's story? I think you did a perfect description of it, actually. I wanted to write it down so that next time someone asks me what it's about, that's what I would say. It was pithy and perfect. It is about a 10-year-old boy who has a very significant craniofacial difference and um is a basically because of that he uh hasn't attended sort of quote-unquote normal school um because he was always having surgeries um but in the fifth grade

with around the age of 10 um his parents decide that it's time he goes to a regular school and he does and wonder follows his journey um in the fifth as he starts school. And it's told from his point of view and the point of view of his circle of friends and the people that are in his community who become part of a big part of his life. It is such a beautiful read and it's certainly been read in our family. And it's being read across primary schools in this country to teach children about differences, about empathy. Did you ever expect it to become such an important book in children's literature? Oh, absolutely not. I have to say there were times when I was writing it because I remember when I was writing it,

the big books that were out were about vampires and, you know and dystopian fiction and all of that. And this little story of a little boy with an extraordinary face didn't seem like, first of all, like I'd even be able to find a publisher, much less have people other than my extended family read the book. So the fact that 10 years later, we're still talking about it and the themes are still as relevant today as they were when I first wrote them. It's really kind of amazing to me. And I guess, you know, I think it's really that kids want to talk about kindness. They want to be reminded of its importance and they want to be inspired to be that way. What stayed with me from your writing was this brutal raw emotion that Oggy shares and there is one line when Oggy says to his mum, mummy why do I have to be so ugly and she says he is not but he insists I know I am at

which point she kisses him and you've told yes this story through the eyes of children through Oggy through his classmates through his sister but what you've also done so beautifully RJ in my opinion is capture the agony that parents can feel when their child comes home from school and says mummy daddy I'm being called out for my differences. That's I think one of the reasons why when parents read the book, I mean, I do hear often that, you know, wonder makes people cry. I mean, it's sort of the trope about wonder. And when kids talk about the moments they cry, it's all because, you know, when, well, I don't want to give it away, but it's a certain aspect of it.

But when parents talk about it having made them cry, I think it's because they see themselves and they see how hard it is as a parent to see your kids struggle with anything, with being lonely, with being ostracized, with being bullied, with being different in any sort of way or not connecting with friends and all of that. It's painful. It's painful being a parent sometimes. And we sort of, you know, we feel those wounds that our kids experience. And I think Wonder does capture that, which is why when people ask me why we don't actually hear from the mom and dad in Wonder and, you know, we actually do. You just have to read between the lines yeah yeah so white bird

is a continuation of the story of wonder and i've watched the trailer it looks equally as moving tell us how it moves this story along well it takes place in the it begins in the present with julian having a conversation with his grandmother um and Julian hasn't really changed much, you know, at the beginning of the book, but which his grandmother senses and his grandmother really wants to connect with him and understand what is at the core of his bullying. And so she decides to share a story that she doesn't like to talk about very much. It was about her existence, her struggles as a young girl growing up in Nazi-occupied France as a Jewish girl, and how she ultimately had to go into hiding during the occupation. And it was the kindness

of some strangers who really helped her get through that terrible time in her life. She talks, she tells the story. So most of the story of White Bird is actually the flashback of her time as a young girl and the people who help her. And how she ultimately helps them as well. It is a story about the courage it takes to be kind, especially in times when having that kind of or showing that kind of kindness to strangers could cost you your life. Which, of course, in World War II, that was the case. And I thought that it was important to tell that story now just because of the world we happen to be living in and just as a way of sort of reminding kids of sort of the lessons of the past that we have to face in order to remember and honor and also learn from. Another important story that I want you to share is how you made that transition

from graphic designer to successful children's author and what advice you might have for women who might be wondering well I could do that I want to do that I'm at home I'm I've I've got an idea I want to put you know pen to paper and make this happen um well my story well I I was a graphic designer was an art director and that's what I you know and, and I had, I was raising my two kids and had a pretty busy life, working nine to five. But I had this idea for the story and I would say that the, you know, I ended up finding the time to write by waking up at midnight every day and writing for three hours until three in the morning until I finished that book because I was that determined to write it. And I couldn't find any time during normal hours to do it. I would say to everyone, just you have to find the time for yourself

to do what it is you want to do. And in terms of writing a book, it's daunting, I think, to say to yourself or to say aloud, I want to write a book or I'm going to write a book. And I totally get that. So my advice to you is, just write one page at a time, just think in terms of like, okay, you know, today, I'm going to write one page. And tomorrow, I'm going to write another page. And before you know it, you've got your 10 pages, you've got a chapter of a book. And you're, you know, you're on your way. And if you think of it that way, it becomes a very doable thing.

And that's certainly how I ended up doing it. I think I would have stopped myself in my tracks if I'd really embraced the idea that, oh, I'm going to write this book. Instead, I just kind of approach it. OK, I'm just going to get up today and I'm going to write, you know, I'm going to write a couple of pages and see where it goes. And that's what I did. Keep it simple. Yeah. And be kind to yourself.

Thank you so much. Keep it simple and be kind to yourself. Words of wisdom there from RJ Palacio, author of that wonderful book, Wonder. Staying with the theme of love and acceptance, how do you show someone you love them? Is it gifts? Is it words? Is it about physical touch? We all give and receive love in different ways, but it's easy as a parent, as a guardian, as a caregiver, to get swept up in work, school, chores, so much so that sometimes we might not pick up on those vital cues that our children are giving us.

You know you love the child in your life, but how can you make sure that your child knows it? Apparently, there are five different love languages. Child and educational psychologist and founder of Meloness, Dr Nneka Ikyurgu, is with us to talk through all of this. Welcome to the programme, Nneka. Hi, Krupa. Good morning. Hi. What are these five love languages?

So I think you introduced it really well there actually but the five different languages are physical touch, words of affirmation, quality time, acts of service and gifts. And I think one thing that you highlighted, actually, which I think is really important, and I tend to talk about this a lot when I talk about love languages, is this idea that actually, you know, parents will often assume that they, you know, that their children know that they love them. But actually, it's really important to express your love for your child in the way that they like to receive it. I think it can be that people often tend to show love in the way that they like to receive love. But actually, when you understand somebody else's love language and you can show them love in that way, then they're much more likely to get to kind of receive that more and kind of really feel the sincerity of that when you do that for them.

I do want to unpick those languages in a moment, but help me understand at what age does a child develop their chosen love language? Yeah, that is a good question. under the age of about five or six, actually, all of those love languages will, you know, will work for them. And they'll kind of receive the love from you in all of those different ways. But, you know, as children kind of start to get older, but this is not to say that you will then only once you identify once you can identify your child's love language, and you'll only speak to them in that language, you know, show them love in that way. You know, it is good to kind of be showing love in all of those different ways. But as children get older, you know, showing them love in that way. You know, it is good to kind of be showing love in all of those different ways. But as children get older, you know, probably sort of six or seven and above, then actually, you sort of start to find that you can, yes, show, identify a particular or a primary, as Dr. Gary Chapman, who was the kind of creator of this idea he puts it as a primary love language and speaking to them in

that way is is what he he advises the first one that you talked about there were words of affirmation is this not just praise and is there such a thing as too much praise for a child yeah so um no it's not just praise um and it's not that there is such a thing as too much praise, but it's about how you talk to your child and the words that you use and the way that you use them. So, you know, words of affirmation is, you know, you can think about it more as ways of, you know, maybe you might want to focus on their physical features or aspects of their personality so saying something to your child like oh I really love your smile or you know you're so thoughtful or you're so helpful you know when you when you see them doing things and noticing things that they're doing and really picking up on that and and being explicit you know uh to them and kind of sharing that with them so yeah it's a bit more than just praise it's kind of really being very um very specific i think and very focused about picking things out about them that you that you like and that you can affirm about them the other one that

stands out for me is receiving gifts if too many presents are bought for a child they're often accused of being spoiled so does it have to be a bought gift no no it definitely doesn't and actually this is more about this is more than about buying gifts and more than about buying gifts on those special occasions you know so where you might you you know you will buy birthday birthday presents or christmas presents this is more about giving gifts um that say to your child you know i know you really well or you know that i've been thinking about you and this is something that made been thinking about you. And this is something that made me think of you. So actually, this is more about gifts, maybe that have more of a

sentimental value, or maybe a reminder of a special time. And, you know, I've talked to parents before about, you know, if your child really likes to collect something, so they like to collect, I don't know, stones or leaves or something, and you're out and you see something, you know, you see a stone or you see a leaf or you see something and you see something, you know, you see a stone or you see a leaf or you see something that they might like, you know, you pick it up and you take it back to them and you present that to them as a gift that says to them, do you know, I saw this and it really made me think of you.

I thought you'd really love it. And so I brought it home for you. Here it is. So, yeah, it's definitely more than just those kind of material gifts and more than those gifts that you'd give, you know, at particular times of the year. I'd like to go through all of them and talk about them all one by one. But there is so much else that I do want to turn to because this has really become part of what is often called a gentle parenting movement. Very popular on social media, on TikTok, on Instagram.

Why do you think this has become so popular now a clear move away from tough love let's say from some from some people who might be listening might have been brought up on that style of love here we have this gentle parenting movement yeah um i think it's interesting that you asked you know why has it become so popular now because actually this is something that is not new um it's something that you know why has it become so popular now because actually this is something that is not new um it's something that you know people have been talking about for for a long time and actually you know I often think about I find it interesting that we talk about this as a kind of gentle parenting or the words that we kind of might put on it to describe you know what is essentially just kind

of parenting and kind of treating children in a way that we would like to be treated, you know, as adults. So, yeah, I think it's not so much that it's new. I think, yes, of course, you know, with social media and the ease of, you know, being able to see and lots more people kind of talking about it, it seems like it's more popular or it's newer than it has been. But yeah, I think actually, it really is just about, you know, basically treating children in the way that we would like to be treated as adults. I know that you work in schools. What are you seeing in schools, especially this year with the ups and downs of the pandemic? And I mean, I guess how these models help you to understand how they might need to heal? How children might need to heal? Yeah, I think, again, it just kind of goes

back to that, just really kind of thinking about what it is that children are communicating, you know, when they do things that we as adults might find challenging, or we might find difficult to understand, you know, I kind of really, I'm always talking about kind of operating from this premise of behaviour is a form of communication. And and so yeah when we see children kind of doing things that we might find challenging or difficult as adults I really kind of try to work with people to help them to see things from a child's perspective really and try and really understand what's going on for them because when we do that I think that then we're more likely to be able to respond in a way that's more helpful for that child actually and it's going to be able to help them to, you know, kind of move through or

manage or cope with whatever it is that they're struggling with or finding difficult in that moment. Dr. Nneka Iguoglu, thank you so much for joining us here on Woman's Hour. I just want to leave a few seconds or so to share some of the many messages we've been having in about the heat. Kiki writes, how about being menopausal during a heat wave? I lived in Cyprus during my period of hot flushes and night sweats. In August, the temperature is over 40 degrees at night and day plus a fourth. Its quarters did not have AC. And this message, I personally thrive in high temperatures.

I get energised. My mood is great. I feel normal and well. All other times I feel cold. So however you are dealing with the heat, please do continue to be in touch with us. And this one from a listener who says, I've switched off now. Radio 4 has been talking about heat non-stop, seemingly for an entire week. It's not even as if it impacts the whole country.

Well, I do hope that listener will join us again soon. I would also leave you pondering your chosen language of love as we were hearing from Nneka there as we end this hour of Woman's Hour. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.