Woman's Hour - Race Across the World, Women's Prize winners, Ute Lemper, Measles at Glasto

Episode Date: June 13, 2025

Last night the winners of this year’s Women’s Prize were announced. The winner for fiction is Yael van der Wouden for her novel The Safekeep and the non-fiction prize by Rachel Clarke for her book The Story of a Heart, which tracks the lifesaving gift of a transplant. Anita Rani discusses the winning books with the Chair of Judges for the Fiction Prize, author Kit de Waal, and Chair of Judges for the Non-Fiction Prize, journalist and author Kavita Puri.Race Across The World reached its finale on BBC One this week, after a nearly 9,000-mile dash across Asia, from the Great Wall in north eastern China to the southernmost tip of India, via the Himalayan peaks of Nepal. This year’s winner were mother and son team Caroline Bridge and her 21-year-old son Tom. Caroline talks to Anita about the experience.An entrepreneur and mother was refused entry to a tech event in London because she had brought her eight-month-old baby with her. Anita speaks to the woman in question, Davina Schonle, and the director and producer Jude Kelly about the issue of banning babies from events of this nature.It's festival season, with Glastonbury starting at the end of June. However it’s not just the music and the atmosphere that festival goers need to be thinking about. The UK Health Security Agency has warned that measles is circulating across the country, with high numbers in the South West and London. Anita is joined by the UK Health Security Agency Deputy Director of Vaccination Programmes, Dr Julie Yates - who is the former public health lead in South West on Glastonbury.Grammy-nominated Ute Lemper has had a career spanning stage, film and music. She is renowned for her interpretations of Kurt Weill, Brecht and chanson legends like Marlene Dietrich. Ute won the American Theatre World Award and the Laurence Olivier Award for her performance as Chicago’s Velma Kelly both on Broadway and in London's West End, and the Molière Award for her performance as Sally Bowles in Cabaret in Paris. Utel Lemper now has a new album, Pirate Jenny, celebrating the music of legendary composer Kurt Weill. She joins Anita to talk about her passion for his work.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning. Live music on the programme today from Grammy nominated Chanteur's Oota Lempa. That was All that jazz from Chicago. Uta won an American Theatre Award and an Olivia Award for playing Velma Kelly and she'll be in the studio to tell me about her new album shortly. And she only went and did it. Yesterday's guest Yale van de Vouden won the Women's Prize for Fiction for her brilliant debut novel

The Safe Keep and the non-fiction prize was won by Rachel Clarke for her book, The Story of Her Heart. Huge congratulations. We'll be speaking to the judges shortly. And ahead of Glastonbury, the festival, we will be there. There is advice and guidance on how to keep safe with a rise in the number of measles cases. So we'll be getting all the information about that. And Davina Shurnley, a tech entrepreneur, was refused entry to London Tech Week because she brought her eight-month-old baby with her. I'll be speaking to Davina later in the programme. But this morning I'd like to hear if you've ever had to take your baby to an event where babies are not expected, a conference or a party or a work event. Why did you find yourself in that situation?

Child care too expensive? Babysitter cancelled? Or simply because you think there's no issue and people should be able to take their baby in arms to an event or a conference? It's society that needs to make arrangements for parents. Or maybe you think babies should be refused entry. Were you accommodated, judged or made to go home like Davina? Maybe you've hosted your own event and this has been an issue for you. Whatever your thoughts

and opinions on this please get in touch in the usual way. You can text the program on 84844, you can email us via our website and our WhatsApp number is 03700 100 444 so do get in touch. But first, this year's Women's Hour celebrated 30 years of the Women's Prize by pairing short and long listed authors with each other and with previous winners to talk about their inspiration, passions and challenges as women writers. Some of you will have heard those and if you didn't you can listen back at your leisure via BBC Sounds. Well last night the winners of this year's Women's Prize were announced.

The winner for fiction is Yale van de Vouden for her novel The Safekeep, who was on the programme yesterday. And the non-fiction prize was won by Rachel Clarke for her book The Story of a Heart, which tracks the life-saving gift of a transplant. Well here to discuss the winning books are Chair of Judges for the Fiction Prize author Kit De Waal and Chair of Judges for the Non-Fiction Prize, journalist and author Kavitha Puri. But before we speak to them, let's hear from Yale.

We had a fascinating conversation about her astonishing debut novel, Only Yesterday, and I asked her about the significance of being shortlisted for the Women's Prize. Oh, it's a huge honour. Of course. Like I said, I've been following the list for so many years and I remember sometimes looking at the list and just like, you know, that flutter of a thought, like, oh, what if that will be me one day? I didn't expect it to happen quite so suddenly and quite so quickly. Can I talk a bit about the process of writing it? Of course, please, my favorite part.

The idea to actually being out. Like, did you have a place to write? Did you wake up every morning? Like, how did this book, how was it born? I was writing another novel, so this one was my side piece. The sexy side piece. The sexy side piece. I was quite devoted and loyal to the first novel.

And so this one had to be secret to myself and to everyone else. But the way I did it for the first, I think, five months is I plotted like a mad woman. So it started out with a lot of flashcards and notes and an entire notebook dedicated to writing out little scenes. The first scene that I wrote on the page was the scene where Eva and Isabel are in the kitchen and Isabel just had her date with Johan. And then there's the conversation about kissing. So that's where the novel started with that conversation.

And when I did start writing, I had such a, I'd already spent five months in that world, in the scaffolding of it, in the sort in the glimpses of it here. It existed like a trailer to a movie in my head. And then I had to actually create the movie. And because I had created such a scaffold, such a framework, by the time I started writing, it basically just rolled out within, I think it took me six months.

And I was teaching in Maastricht, and I lived in Utrecht. That's a two hour train ride. So I wrote a majority of this book on the train to and back from work. How inspiring is that? You can actually write a women's prize winning book on your commute to work. Well, you can if your name's Yael van der Vouden that is, and you can catch that interview back on BBC Sounds. Let me welcome our chair of judges for both fiction and non-fiction Kit Tavala and Kavita Puri. Morning Kit, morning Kavita. Morning.

I'm going to come to you first. Kit, why did you choose the safe keep as this year's winner? Well, I think you described it as astonishing and it really was. It's so sensuous and so beautifully rendered, but also such a surprising subject matter. I think we all think we know the Holocaust and we know the aftermath of the Holocaust and we think we've heard every story and yet here is one virtually unexplored in fiction and I was just blown away by the concept and the history as well as how beautifully she'd written a love story and a thriller, essentially. The shortlist was incredibly strong. Can you talk us through some of the other nominations and why those books stood out? Yes, there was fundamentally which somehow this young woman, her debut novel, manages to tackle ISIS brides

and comedy at the same time. I don't know how she did it, but it was hilarious and awful. The Saber Eunice, yeah, she's been on the programme talking about it. Yeah, it was such a funny book and again tackling a difficult subject in a new way. Good Girl, which was a story set in Berlin, a coming of age story really by Arya Aeba, that was very, very beautifully written about the agonies of being a young woman grappling with her identity. And there was The Persians, which is a sweeping sort of saga, really, covering multi-generational Persians living in America and finding themselves

not as important as they used to be. Again, funny and bizarre. Elizabeth Stratt probably needs no introduction because her books are just devastatingly simple but deep, deep, heavy undercurrents. And who have I missed out? Miranda July. Yeah, all fours. I mean, just shocking, shocking and funny book and just uncompromising. And that's, I think, the list is so diverse as something for everybody. But it's just a great insight into women's thinking, women's lives, their dreams, their hopes and their fears. And I think that's

what's lovely about the Women's Prize. It covers so many different subjects and tastes. Yeah, really difficult being a judge, but also what a joy to have to read all those books. Oh, what a joy. And it's such a good excuse to not do anything else. I hear you. Kavita, Rachel Clark won the non-fiction prize for The Story of a Heart. Why? Well, I think that anyone who reads this book can not fail to be touched by it. It left honestly on all five of us such a kind of deep and long lasting impression. It's the story of parents who in the depths of grief,

their little girl was in a car accident and they make a decision to give her heart to save the life of they don't know who, but it is a little boy called Max and the girl was called Keira. But what Rachel does is she takes this story, she holds it with great care and she explains this miracle of transplant surgery through the parents, through the NHS workers, but also she weaves in the science so seamlessly. She writes beautifully, compassionately, but with huge authority. And this book was devastating

in the selflessness and generosity of people and humanity just shines out on every page. And Rachel did say in her speech yesterday that the world can feel so bleak. And if you read the headlines, you can think the worst of people. And in this book, you see the best of people from the parents, but also the NHS workers. And she doesn't just focus on the surgeons, you know, these guys who sweep in. It's the porters, it's the cleaners, it's the nurses who stay late on shift. This is a really remarkable book and I think it will be read for years

to come. That sounds very powerful. Again, some fantastic titles in the shortlist. Can you talk us through the others? There really were. And I think if you look at the range of writing, and I don't like to categorize in memoir, because the way the women write, and you know this Anita, you're writing yourself, it's genre-defying. So you have Nina Cherry, who writes exquisitely about her life, and she touches on so many themes of belonging and family and music, of course, and family. And then you have raising hair, which is a kind of life-changing contemplation of what it means to live with this Leverett and what it means for us to live with nature. You have Claire Mulley,

who wrote a book that is rewriting a heroine of World War II back into history. Such an important story. And then you have, you know, what the wild seas can be, which is telling us about the future of oceans. And then a wonderful book about four ordinary women in China, the other side of the economic miracle that you rarely hear of. I mean, it was a shortlist that we were

extremely proud of and really shows the range of what women are writing about, women with authority and expertise who do such wonderful research, who are our thinkers, are our thought leaders. And that's, I think, what the Women's Prize is so brilliant at is amplifying these voices and making them part of the public discourse. And what's it like, Kit, when all those voices and the other powerhouse of women I saw on my Instagram this morning where I had major FOMO looking at everybody in this beautiful sunny London, what's the atmosphere like at the event last night? Oh, it was electric. And it was just so wonderful to see how many people come out to support

the prize, to support other women and just celebrate how unique the prize is and also that, you know, you're celebrating some of the best writing in the English language and you know it and you can feel it and the atmosphere was just beautiful, lots of hugging and tears with the speeches that were made. It was just beautiful, lots of hogging and tears with the speeches that were made. It was just beautiful. Earlier, Kavita, this year you and Kate Moss joined us on Women's Hours to talk about the significance of the non-fiction prize in inspiring women to write non-fiction and encourage the industry to invest in non-fiction titles by women. So what impact do you think the prize

has had this year? What do you like to see next year? So I mean, it's probably worth pointing out that it is quite startling and the Women's Prize has done some some work on this and I hadn't quite realized that in every bit of the process from who is commissioned to the advanced to you know who gets reviewed to who what which books people buy especially which books men buy men are not buying women. Women are not doing as well as they should, given that they are experts in the field.

And I think that the importance of this prize, we are only in our second year, is amplifying all these experts. You have these women on your program at the time, but they are part of the national conversation. And so I think this prize is so important. Look at the world that we're living in. We need to hear these voices and look at that shortlist.

All these women and so many more out there need to be part of that conversation. And I think that more and more people will apply for this prize all around the world, but it will inspire people to write too. Yeah, absolutely. Kit De Waal, Kavita Puri, thank you so much for joining me this morning. 84844 is the number to text. I was asking you if you've ever had an experience

of having to take a baby in arms to a conference, lots of you getting in touch. Someone's saying, I run conferences, and one time a speaker I wanted said she couldn't come because she had a baby. So I said, bring the baby, I'll look after her during the panel. We did did just that and the other attendees and speakers loved it I got kudos to you because I was able to calm

the baby and help her go to sleep still remembered how having three kids of my own that text number 84844 now race across the world reached its finale on BBC one this week after nearly 9,000 mile dash across Asia from the Great Wall in Northeastern China to the southernmost tip of India via the Himalayan peaks of Nepal. This year's winner were mother and son team Caroline Bridge and her 21 year old son Tom. And Caroline joins me now. Congratulations! Welcome to Woman's Hour Caroline. Does it feel like a distant dream? Oh, thank you, Anita. Actually, I'm really enjoying reliving it through watching the series.

It was just glorious and it brings back all the tensions, the highlights, the difficulty, everything. And it's a wonderful series. It is a wonderful series. It brings people so much joy, which is why it's so popular. Let's go back to the very beginning when you applied. Did you think at the beginning of the eight weeks that you were... what was your mindset? Did you go in it to win it? Did you think you'd win it? Yeah, when I applied I thought I'm going to go on this and I'm going to win it, but as soon as we arrived at the Great Wall of China and met the other teams, I thought, no way, absolutely, I haven't got a chance now. They all look so strong and so determined

that suddenly Thomas and I felt weak. But we just carried on regardless, you just have to put one foot in front of the other and keep going. Can we talk about just, well first of all, what you thought when you realised where you were going? Oh, it wouldn't have been my choice. I'd never wanted to go to China. We only knew we were landing in Beijing when we were at Heathrow Airport, so we didn't know where the final destination was. And Beijing was not a place I would have chosen. I couldn't even point it out on the map. So already I thought, oh gosh, we're underfooted here, we haven't got a hope. Didn't have a clue about languages, knew nothing about China.

So hard. I mean it looks hard watching you but just how hard is it? Just how high are your anxiety levels on a daily basis? Yes, I suffer from a little internal anxiety anyway. So to be there with no comfort whatsoever, absolutely nothing familiar around you was awful and you do stress out quite easily. And of course, you're overtired, you're really hungry, you don't know where you're going to sleep for the night, you don't know if you can afford food or even what it is, you can't speak the language, there's nobody to turn to apart from your teammate, so you are stressing all the time. It gets easier as you go along.

You were way behind the others after the first leg and at risk of elimination. How were you feeling at that point? Oh, Anita, we were totally crushed. I have to say, as soon as they stopped filming, I actually put my backpack down and I wept. I was totally, totally crushed. And one of the reasons I wanted to do it with Thomas is to show that it doesn't matter how old you are, you can still do the same things.

And of course, when we arrived last by days, it turned out that all I'd proven to him was that we were absolutely useless. And I didn't know how we were going to carry on. So that really wasn't that was probably the most awful moment of the whole series. Well, it ended well though, didn't it? So why did you apply? Why did you want to do it? apply? Why did you want to do it? I actually had a quite a bad year. I downsized. I didn't have a horse anymore and I'd loved competing my horse and

training my horse and I'd had my dog put down. So I thought I need to do something for myself because I didn't know what else to do. I just thought maybe this is it. And I'm just now drifting with no purpose. How important is purpose? Extremely important for me. Really, really important. I think as a mother, I'd happily given up my career to bring up my son. And it's the most valuable job, but of course it's not paid. So you end up feeling, well, what am I going to do now?

And I had no qualifications. I had no other skills, I didn't know where to turn. So I wanted to go on race, I wanted to prove something to myself and my family, that I could still do something useful and be valuable. You've mentioned your horse there, you're an amateur event rider, and you've won titles, so successful.

So competitive nature? Yes, very competitive. Always have been. It might be because I had two older brothers who were also successful and they kept pushing me to join in games and do things and be goalie and stuff when we were young. And I've always been brought up to think that if a job's worth doing, it's worth doing properly. So that's what I think half of being competitive is. You prepare and you do your very best. And was it hard convincing your son to join you to do it? It was initially, yes. I'd been watching series two, I think, and I said I want to go on this and we went for a dog walk together

and I was telling him about it and he watched a few programs and he said yes okay eventually because I apparently kept pestering him and he said yes just to shut me up. What's it done for your relationship? Oh we are closer than ever. I have a new found respect for him. Still speaking, that's good. Absolutely, still shouting at him when he throws me as washing and doesn't bring his face out of the room. So yes obviously in the same house, still mother and son, but I have a new found respect for him. I love his youth and exuberance.

He doesn't have the weight of the shoulders. He doesn't have any worries. And I love seeing life through his eyes. And being on race enabled me to just capture a little bit more of that carefree love of youth. It was just the loveliest thing. He was just so friendly and happy, whereas I was always serious and anxious. But I really want to see and experience life a little more how he does now, and it was lovely.

And you went to some incredible places. I mean, you really did. What was your highlight? Favorite place? What's the one bit that you could transport yourself back there now without the anxiety? Yeah, I would instantly go to the Elephant Sanctuary because we were in the middle of this chaos that is India. And the Elephant Sanctuary was just a few hours of calm peace. And it was being among these beautiful, gracious animals who can empathize with you. They're so intelligent, they're highly emotional and it was so lovely to be calm and gentle and away from the noise and the bustle and the smell and everything that India has to offer, which is

wonderful but it's overwhelming. And it was so gracious and lovely to be among these beautiful, beautiful animals and look after them and see the people who care for them. And it was just an oasis of calm. Yes. Yeah, yeah, and elephants just do that. They are magnificent. And you know what was really extraordinary watching was you and your journey, your personal journey. You know, a woman who was a stay at home mum, as you've explained, but also seeing you grow

over the weeks watching you and coming out of yourself. So how have you changed? Do you feel different? I feel like I need to have a little more fun. And I feel like I need to live in the moment a little more. Stop trying to do everything perfectly and do what's expected of me and just enjoy what I'm seeing and doing now. And I think that's largely down to Thomas and the experiences I had. So yes, it's allowed me to think it doesn't matter, nobody's watching, nobody's judging. If you enjoy it, just put a great big smile of you on your face and carry on. And I loved it and I find that's a little more infectious as well. And why not live life? We're only here the once, so go for it, make the best of it.

Oh, you really put a smile on my face saying that. Now that's a note for everybody. Take notes everyone. Caroline's speaking some wisdom. £20,000 prize money, what are your plans now? What are you going to do with it? Well we are hoping to travel to Kazakhstan together. And we're going to take backpacks and we're going to slightly rough it. And we're going to take backpacks and we're going to slightly rough it and we're going to be impulsive because we learnt that travelling through India and Nepal, the best way to travel and see things is to speak to locals, not necessarily have plans and just see what they recommend. So we've decided just to go with no plans whatsoever and do exactly that, try and speak

to the locals and live among them. But take your telephones. Ah, of course, and a card. Of course, definitely, bank card and your telephone. Caroline, congratulations once again. All the best for living in the moment. Enjoy Kazakhstan. And thank you for speaking to us this morning. And you can catch up with Race Across the World on BBC iPlayer if you didn't see it. Now, earlier this week, an entrepreneur and mother, Davina Shurnley, was refused entry

to London Tech Week because she'd brought her eight-month-old baby with her. Davina, who's the founder of Training and Consulting Businesses, had travelled three hours to the annual event on Monday but was told she could not enter because they had a no under 16s age restriction. This information was included as part of the booking process and a spokesman from London Tech Week said that the environment had not been designed to incorporate the needs, facilities and safeguarding that under 16s require. They also said that they will review their facilities ahead of next year's event while Davina shared her experience online which has led to an outburst of support and outrage from people in and out of the tech sector.

We're going to speak to her now about the experience and whether it's fair for an event of this nature to deny entry to mothers with babes in arms. And lots of you are getting in touch with your stories. I'll read some of those out in a moment. 84844 is the text number, but first Davina, welcome to woman's hour what happened? Hello, hi thanks for having me. Yeah so I had travelled down to London, I don't live in London, I live in Worcestershire in the West Midlands with my eight month baby. I had meetings arranged I had meetings arranged and I was expecting to be able to go in and attend those meetings, all who knew that I was bringing my eight-month baby and they were perfectly fine with it. And yeah, at the entrance I was told I wasn't able to come in, sometimes not the most kindest of ways. And there was also some mixed messages about the reasons why.

So there was a bit of confusion there. So yeah, it was hugely disappointing and yeah, embarrassing to be there at the door being turned away. They have said that there were no under 16s and there was a restriction and that was information that was part of the booking process. Did you not see this or did you think it'd be okay? I hadn't seen it, but to be honest, if I had seen it,

I wouldn't have assumed that that would have included a baby. And that's something that I think just needs to be, I think, a little bit more clearer. Why did you decide to bring your baby? and that's something that I think just needs to be, I think, a little bit more clearer. Why did you decide to bring your baby? I think like many working parents, we have to figure out how to make things work. I am building a start-up, I am raising a baby at the same time. I wasn't there to make a statement, I was there to do my job as a founder, as a CEO, building my business.

My baby is still so young so I limit how much time I spend away from her and I don't have support on a Monday in particular. And you did ranged meetings at the event. Do you think they'd be doable with a baby beside you at the same time? Yeah, for the type of meetings that I was having Yeah, for the type of meetings that I was having and they were comfortable and also she is, she's eight months, she loves looking around, she's very easily preoccupied and it wouldn't have been an issue in these particular meetings. Yeah, how did you feel when you were refused entry? Awful. I think as anyone would,

I think it does bring into the fears of being a founder, especially in the tech industry, being female, and also trying to be a mother at the same time. Was there a part of you that thought, oh, I should have got childcare? I couldn't on that particular day. Right. And for me, I felt more the fact that

why was this such an issue, especially walking around an expo in a pram that isn't taking up any more space than a wheelchair. And, you know, it's as much as, you know, new experiences for her as well as it is for her being with me, what's best for her at this moment in time is being with me. And I know her temperament and what she can manage and what she enjoys. I wonder what it says about the tech sector generally sort of and how, I don't know, excluding including women, more specifically mothers.

Exactly, and I think that's what the, I never intended or expected the post to go as big as it did but I think the fact that so many people have been sharing support I think it really does show what the community, in particular the tech community, are looking for and how actually it doesn't include a lot of big segment of what they're trying to encourage. Yeah, less than a third of the UK's tech workforce is female. I mean, that's shocking, isn't it? Female tech founders get less than 2% of total investment. We know that. Women generally in entrepreneurs get terrible investment. Shouldn't they, you think they should be surely doing more to accommodate women?

Yeah, and I think they have been doing more and more. I think maybe they have just, you know, maybe unintentionally excluded parents as well. And the fact that in some situations there is no other choice but to do the dual role at the same time. And so I think there is, I think this has opened up the conversation to whether babies and kids in general, I mean kids are the future and should they not be inspired by what's being seen at London Tech Week, for example.

Well it's kind of mixed messages, isn't it? Because you've got tech with the other end of the scale. You've got tech billionaire Elon Musk bringing his young son X to high profile events at the White House. Exactly. So I should be able to bring my baby to an expo. Do you agree? 84844? Keep your text coming in. I'm going to read some of them out in a moment. Thank you, Davina, for taking the time out to speak to me. London Tech Week have been in touch.

They gave us a statement saying, we're very sorry Davina had this experience and have reached out directly to apologise and discuss what happened. We have age restrictions in place because the event isn't currently designed to incorporate the particular needs, facilities and safeguards that under-16s require and include information on this as part of the booking process. We're committed to making London Tech Week as inclusive as possible. The UK has a vibrant, innovative and diverse tech ecosystem and will continue to be dedicated to championing the breadth of the industry and enhancing what London Tech Week provides year to year. Well let's now speak to someone who knows a thing or two about event organising, Jude Kelly. Jude is the founder of the Women

of the World festivals, now master of St Catherine's College Oxford. She was the artistic director of London Southbank Centre for 12 years and the program lead for culture and ceremonies at the 2012 London Olympics. So you really know your onions when it comes to event organising, Jude. What's your general policy on bringing babies? Well, the first thing I want to say is I think it's great that Davina posted this and that it's gone so viral because it's a good conversation to have again. It's disappointing because I suppose I thought that we'd had this conversation over many years. You know, I was first feeding and taking my babies around 35 years ago

with three different babies. I had a number of difficult encounters, but I was in a situation like Davina where I couldn't have childcare in many of the times I was needing to go into meetings. And one of the moments was when I was directing at the Royal Shakespeare Company, and I had to sort of change Caroline on the floor of the rehearsal room, and in the lunch break,

and Terry Hans, who was the co-artistic director then, sort of came in and said, oh my God, the Royal Shakespeare Company will never be the same again, he said disapprovingly. And I privately thought, well, great, that's good. Let's hope it won't be. I've organized events all over the world and in my experience, actually small children, you know, who are still meeting their parents and particularly if they're

breastfeeding then their mother, they need to be allowed to come into events. Mothers are absolutely forensically frightened about whether the baby squeaks or cries. And so normally you'll see that they've bought maybe a ticket for something and they'll rush out as soon as the baby makes a little squeal, which I always think is a bit sad anyway. But the thing is that we can't carry on having society that says we're empowering women, giving women's voices, wanting women to be in the forefront and then say, accept when your mother's, in which case,

please take a back seat. And the irony about this event was that, I think had to be managed to get in through the doors. First of all, she would have found full baby changing facilities in all the toilets because that venue has all of those things. And also I think at least three events that were about amplifying women's voices,

female founders, etc. So we have to be able to have a society where the idea of producing children is something that we want. We've got birth rates dropping all over the global north and we're sort of angsting about that. And then at the same time, we're not giving signals to parents that actually small children can be made welcome. And I'm experiencing it again now because I'm a

grandmother so I'm watching the same sort of thing happen and there's almost like a new kind of puritanism going on about the way events need to be child-free zones. Well doesn't it change the event? I'm going to read out one of the messages that are coming in. We're getting tons on this by the way. We've got a couple here. So Catherine says babies should not be at any type of business event in Parliament, informal meetings and similar events. And Fran says imagine if everyone turned up with babies in prams, if it said no children that should be respected. I'm a mother of two sons but you have to understand there's a time and place for children and a conference is not one of them. What do you

reckon Jude? If everyone turned up it would make it a different event. Yeah and I think if you, well if you did an event that said you know all children welcome then obviously that's what would happen but I think there's a general understanding that in the main you try to organise childcare if it's appropriate but for very small children and the few female founders that exist, I actually think that there needs to be a much greater understanding that this is gonna be okay. And I think it is interesting when people say,

children should not be allowed in any of these places. A lot of those places are working on social hours, they're not making any concessions for family-friendly policies. And that's why I'm saying that we're having an anxiety about how many children are being born and brought up. And a lot of the reasons that women are giving is, A, they can't afford it, but B, life doesn't allow them to combine child rearing with having a job, and women have to have a job. And so how do you then, so maybe because of the way society is structured and just the

way we've always presumed that work is this and work children stay at home, how do you, Jude, organise an event and make it an inclusive space? How does it work? What have you done? Give us some examples. Well, the most extreme example actually, which was symbolic, was that several while we've had nappy changing flash mobs, just to kind of make it clear to people that, you know, when you're talking about female empowerment, etc., etc., etc., don't forget that whether we want that to be the case or not, most women who are having children are actually managing those situations themselves, and that includes nappies, and it includes breastfeeding. But you know seriously what we do with events is we say look we welcome babes in arms etc

please be very respectful of noise levels of issues to do with you know distraction etc and in my experience women are very very respectful of those things I've never seen anybody abuse that. You know, I don't think that every single situation is child appropriate. Of course I'm not saying that. I actually think you have to look at each event and say, you know, does this make it possible for children, small children to come? But you know, we weren't talking about like putting on face painting competitions here, were we? We were talking about a tech week where they're inviting female founders and I think probably from what they replied they will next year look and say

well do we need a creche? Is one of these an answers? You know, do we need a zone where women can bring children or dads can bring their children? But I think if you're going to say that tech with hybrid working and a completely modern society is part of like a new way of thinking, then we can't exclude children. Jude Kelly, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me this morning. I'm going to read a couple more of your messages out. I have an amazing memory of seeing Maggie Aden-Bakar-Pocock give a lecture at a science conference in Aberdeen whilst also looking after her then toddler. At one

point she paused the lecture for a quick cuddle break. I was in my early twenties and it made such a positive impression on me. When I had my own children there was no question that I would bring them along to work conferences if I needed to, not just for my family but also to set an example for others like Maggie did all those years ago. 84844, that text number should be etched in your mind. Now festival season is upon us with Glastonbury, which Womans Hour will be coming live from, starting at the end of June. However, it's not just the music and the atmosphere that festival goers need to be thinking about. The UK Health Security Agency has warned that measles is circulating across the country with high numbers in the southwest and London.

Well joining me to tell us more is UK Health Security Agency Deputy Director of Vaccination Programs Dr Julie Yates who is the former Public Health Lead in southwest on Glastonbury. Julie welcome to Woman's Hour. Let's start with why measles is on the increase? Globally, we're seeing an increase in in measles and this is because uptake of vaccination has declined gradually over years and whilst it might only be a few percent each year who are not having their children vaccinated, those numbers do accumulate over time. And then you get larger and larger groups of people who are not vaccinated at all ages. So we vaccinate our children to give them lifelong protection.

But if they don't get vaccinated as children and then they don't catch up as they get older, then you get older adults as well who are susceptible to catching measles. And I suppose this is kind of all, a lot of it began around the MMR vaccine. Yes, I mean, that is decades ago now. But they're the generation that are now in their early 20s. Or older, slightly older as well, but yes adults and that's important because those people are having children themselves, they may not realise that they're not actually vaccinated and they're not immune, so they're susceptible. So it's really important that

everybody looks to see and checks out whether they've had two MMRs because that will give them the protection they need. What numbers are we seeing? So globally the cases have increased. In the UK since January we've had 420 confirmed cases but that's very likely to be an underestimate because not everybody will be sufficiently ill to go to the doctors and not all of these cases are confirmed in the laboratory. Why are festivals fertile ground? Festivals are great. Festivals bring together a lot of people. Glastonbury brings together 200,000 people. They're people from all over the place. They're from all over the country but they're also from

all over the world. So if we're saying we've got global increase in measles, for example, and you've got people coming from London, you've got people from coming from all parts of the country, but also from abroad, from areas where they've also got increases in measles, you've got lots of people who are mixing very closely and can spread the infection between them. How contagious is it? It's very contagious. It's one of our most infectious diseases. And so it spreads incredibly

easily and it's a very nasty disease. We just don't see it as often these days. What are the symptoms and who are the most vulnerable? What should we be looking out for? So most of the cases that we have are in children aged under 10 years. And those are mostly again unvaccinated children. Like many other infectious diseases, measles starts as something that could be, is like a cold or they're off colour, it's not obvious and it's measles so it's what we call a prodromal phase where and they can get conjunctivitis and much before they get the rash and then they get a red blotchy rash on their body and on their face and so on. So that in itself is unpleasant, they get high fever, they're unwell, they're really, it's difficult to manage.

But there are some real nasty complications of measles and that's what we're concerned about as well. So ear infections, chest infections, inflammation of the brain and so on. And what if people have decided, oh, we should get our vaccination? What if you don't know? What if mum doesn't know? What if you don't know? How can you check? So you can check. Babies have what's called a red book. People who've got children will be familiar with that. That's where their vaccines are recorded. So they can check the red book. You can check with your GP. The GP will have a record. And if there's any doubt you can have the MMR vaccine. You need two doses for full protection. It's not just

festivals as well. Travelling abroad at the moment, if families are going to France, Italy, Spain and so on for their summer holidays, then they also need to check. Well thank you for giving us all that information, really important stuff. So measles and then also we know that COVID, there seems to be a bit of a rise in that, lots of festivals, we're at the start of the summer. Give us some quick general overview of how people should be protecting themselves. I mean the best way that they can protect themselves, it's really difficult at

festivals, there's lots going on. They can have their vaccines, not just MMR but other childhood vaccines. Make sure you're up to date with all of those things in advance if you can and then generally prepare, make sure that they have they have their medicines when they go to festivals as well. Make sure that they have they drink water, all of those things that keep you healthy while you're there. And make sure that you really enjoy it. Thank you very much, Julie Yates, for speaking to us.

And Womens Hour will be broadcasting live from Glastonbury on Friday the 27th of June. So we're looking forward to that one. Maybe take some hand sanitizers with us. Now to my next guest. Grammy nominated Uta Lemper has had a career spanning stage, film and music. She's renowned for her interpretations of Berlin cabaret, Kurt Weill, Brecht and chanson legends like Marlene Dietrich. Berlin cabaret, Kurt Weill, Brecht and chanson legends like Marlene Dietrich. She won the American Theatre Award and the Laurence Olivier Award for her performance as Chicago's Velma Kelly in the West End and on Broadway and the Mollier Award for her performance as cabaret's Sally Bowles in Paris and she's back with a fabulous new project, a new album,

Pirate Jenny, celebrating the music of legendary composer Kurt Weill, plus a concert of this at London's Cadogan Hall tonight. Uta, welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning, thank you for having me at this wonderful introduction. I don't need to say anything. Yes, no, you've got lots to say. I want to hear all the stories. 40 years after your breakthrough album, Uta Lempur sings Kurt Weill, which stayed at the top of the Billboard's crossover charts for over a year. Let's remind everybody. Why a tribute now? Well, you said it.

It is his birthday, 125 years. And it was the beginning of, when it all started, beginning of my mission, long before the musical Chicago and so and so. It was in the 80s. Let's go back to 1985. I lived in Berlin. It was the Cold War Berlin, the divided Berlin, with the wall between us and me and West Berlin, a wall all around us in the middle of the East GDR. And it was so

disturbing and such a realism that was at the same time inspiring to make art somehow vibrant and a bit political somehow. And here we go back to Kurt Weill and Bertolt Brecht, obviously. And this repertoire of the Weimar time, which is now 100 years ago exactly, was just so unique and almost like daring. It was almost like activists on stage speaking out their minds, fighting for liberation against exploitation, against the establishment, against the privileged, fighting for the poor. It was the new democracy and peril, the Weimar Republic.

And I thought at the time, you know, in this ugly broken down city of Berlin at the time, this is something I can identify with. And I started to sing this music when it was so successful worldwide and really in London. It was very important because DECA Records launched this project of the music persecuted and banned by the Nazis. So it was really important. London did a big, big thing for me, the record company. And yes, I had to speak in thousands of interviews about the past, about the Holocaust, about the Jewish composers, about the Weimar time and the Nazi time. And so it was really a big challenge, but it was a privilege,

but it came with a real responsibility. And now here we are 40 years later, welcome to Weimar again. And I thought I wanted to launch another album with a contemporary interpretation because I've done all the original ones already. They're out for decades. So this one has a different vibe. It's really meant for the new generations to rediscover Kurt Weill. It's built on a groove, on the vibe, on the polyphonic atmosphere, and it's kind of this darkish, backstreet, like new-aged storytelling. And of course, the lyrics are wonderful, as usual, Bertolt Brecht.

But the interpretations are different. I think we should hear a clip. Okay. Let's hear a clip. This is Mack the Knife. Yes, it's a great atmosphere. That's Mack the Knife. Yes, you create an atmosphere, that's Mack the Knife, that was composed by Kurt Weill with lyrics by Bert Albrecht from the 1928 music drama, the Threepenny Opera. So you mentioned there that you grew up in Germany and you performed, I want to take you back to another time because we've got lots of

lovely stories that I want to get from you. You performed alongside Roger Waters of Pink Floyd fame to mark the collapse of the Berlin Wall. What do you remember of that time? Oh my god, that was an incredible moment of time. It was the summer of 1990, so the wall is down just for half a year. And it was Roger Waters, not Pink Floyd, they were already split up. So Roger Waters was on this worldwide trip to promote his work, The Wall, his brain baby, and to choose at this moment the Potsdamer Platz in the middle of Berlin at the epicenter of the Cold War, right there where the minefields had been or the old bombs from World War II were still

underneath so they had to dig up the whole field and clear it obviously. It was a brilliant idea and oh my God, I remember it was he invited though you know everyone like Van Morris and Joni Mitchell, Cindy Lopp, the big the top of the top of the rock music to perform and I was I had the privilege to be in the really super big privilege I was the only German and I sang the thin ice with him. And yes, but it was a time where, you know, everyone was so overwhelmed with this end of the Cold War. I remember the people on the east side of Berlin were standing, they didn't have money to buy tickets.

There were 500,000 people on the Potsdamer Platz, most of them from West Germany, because the East Germans, they had to, they were on top of the buildings, unsecured, you know, watching the concert from the top of their buildings, right next to the minefields. So that was brilliant. I also want to hear about your conversations with Marlene Dietrich. Can you tell us what happened there?

Well, this was also a long time ago. It was 1987. I was the Sally Boats in the Paris production of Cabaret. In Paris. In Paris. En français, en français. And... By the way, Uta speaks five languages, of course. Not as much as my pianist, he speaks ten. Amazing. But, yes, so everyone was talking about me, the young German, doing this role and the newspapers were writing, La Nouvelle Marlène, the New Marlène, and I was so overwhelmed. Oh my God, this legend, how can they compare me?

I wrote her a letter to apologize for the comparisons. And that's sweet. And she got me on the telephone, long before internet, at 87, and she found me in the hotel and we had a three hour conversation. And 30 years later about this very overwhelming conversation where she was very wicked, uncensored, provocative, wild, this older woman who lives as a recluse in her apartment. She hadn't left the apartment for more than a decade. She didn't want to show her aged face. And her big wave of melancholy

that hit me over the telephone line was the fact that she couldn't go back to Germany because she had fought in World War II as an American soldier. She had given up the German nationality. She didn't want to sing for the Nazis. She said, now I'm going to be American and I'm going to go to war for them. And the Germans treated her as a traitor 40 years after the war until her death in 1992. So that is a very big and tragic story. It is, but you had that conversation with her. What an amazing experience in your life. You have done so much. You've traveled, you speak all these languages, you've won all these awards, done all of that worldwide fame whilst raising four children. How did you manage it?

Yeah, as I heard before on your program it is very, very challenging to be a working mother and to have children. Could you take your children with you to concert theatres? Well I did, yes. yeah. The first two, I took them everywhere. We were like on the road, they were backstage and the pianist, Vanne Girik, I can't remember where he's from, he played soccer with them backstage and it was like a wild party. I loved it. In the summer holidays they were always with us. During the school year it was tough, always separating and you know the heartache of being gone from home and worrying that they were taken care of difficult. But you managed it and you had this huge success and now you're in London because I could never do it again though. No you don't need to. How did

on earth did I do this? You're here because you've just landed from New York because you're performing in London's Cadogan Hall and you're going to sing for us right now. We've got Vanna at our beautiful Steinway piano. Tell us what you'll be singing for us. Yes, well tonight is a court-vile evening and yes we will sing Speak Low from One Touch of Venus, court-vile. It is the pure though, not like the album, it is more the pure traditional interpretation. What a treat for us. If you can take your place at the microphone. So now singing for us live this Friday morning why not we have Uta Lemper and on piano we have Vanna Geerig. She's on her feet. I've got to give you a standing ovation my goodness me did that just happen in my life? Uta Lemper, thank you so much. What

a privilege. Thank you, Vanna Gehrig on the piano. And Vanna, that was extraordinary. Oh my goodness me, sometimes I feel very lucky doing this for a living. Just watching Uta was remarkable. That's it from me. I'm going to read out a couple of your brilliant messages. As a freelance journalist without childcare 32 years ago I took my baby and toddler to a couple breakfast receptions checking first. I was totally accommodated and would have exited the event if they'd been disrupted. It really depends on the event. A crying baby isn't good for the parent or the attendees and the proviso would be to welcome them but please consider the situation and react accordingly. Maybe we need to see more dads taking a child

to an event. That's from Fiona. Join me tomorrow for weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi guys, this is Rylan and I'm here to tell you about how to be in love from BBC Sounds. Now as a single, divorcee, I feel ready to find love again, but I want to see if there's a better way of going about it. In this series, I'm ready to find love again, but I want to see if there's a better way of going about it. In this series, I'm going to sit down with 12 incredible guests who are really going to help me rediscover what love truly means and how I can find it again. People like Stephen Fry, Louis Theroux, Matt and Emma Willis and many more. So join me on this journey as I explore how to be in love.

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