Woman's Hour - Rachael Watts, Danielle De Niese, Royal race row

Episode Date: December 1, 2022

Rachael Watts has spent her life hiding a secret. Now 40, she was seven years old when Russell Bishop - known as the Babes in the Wood murderer - abducted, attacked and sexually assaulted her in 1990. It is a crime that should never have happened, as back in 1987, Russell Bishop had been charged with the murders of two nine-year-olds, Nicola Fellows and Karen Hadaway. But police were unable to secure a conviction when a series of prosecution blunders meant evidence and testimonies failed to stand up in court. Bishop was able to walk free and three years later he abducted and attacked Rachael, leaving her for dead. Miraculously she survived and it was her testimony which finally meant Bishop was convicted and put behind bars, despite him protesting his innocence. However, in 2018, forensic scientists presented new DNA evidence and Bishop received two life sentences for the murders of Nicola Fellows and Karen Hadaway. Ever since her attack, Rachael’s family have fought to protect her privacy, hoping she could lead as normal life as possible. Rachael has never done a broadcast interview about what happened to her. But since Russell Bishop’s death in January this year, she decided she wanted to tell her story.Danielle de Niese has been hailed as 'opera’s coolest soprano' by New York Times Magazine. She has starred in the West End musical 'Man Of La Mancha' alongside Kelsey Grammar, hosted at the BBC Proms, performed on stage with LL Cool J, and sung in a Ridley Scott movie. She is now taking over the theatres in London in the build up to Christmas. She joins Emma to discuss her recent performance at the Royal Opera House in La Boheme, current role as the angel Clara in the new opera It’s A Wonderful Life at the ENO, and to perform a sneak preview from the forthcoming immersive experience of Handel’s Messiah.'Where are you really from?' It's a question the black British charity boss Ngozi Fulani was asked repeatedly at an event earlier this week at Buckingham Palace, she's told the BBC the experience was 'abuse'. Lady Hussey has resigned since the incident. The Palace described the remarks as 'unacceptable and deeply regrettable'. A spokesperson for Prince William said 'racism has no place in our society'. We hear from Ngozi and Emma speaks to Professor Nicola Rollick, author of The Racial Code.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Due to rights reasons, we've had to remove the performance from this podcast. An exclusive interview today with a woman who has never told her story on air before, keeping her silence for more than three decades about what happened to her at the hands of the man who became known as the Babes in the Wood Killer. You will hear that interview shortly. Also on today's programme, music from the woman billed as opera's coolest soprano, Danielle Denise. And after Ngozi Fulani, the founder of Sister Space, a charity which supports

women of African and Caribbean heritage who've face domestic and sexual abuse, speaks on air to my colleagues about that exchange at the Buckingham Palace reception to raise awareness of violence against women. I'm very clear about what happened. So you ask me where I'm from and I tell you from here. Yeah, but where are you really from? She said it more than once. And then where are your people from? And said it more than once. And then where are your people from? And I'm like, so at that point, you're thinking, well, lady, you know, this is not appropriate. We will talk about that question. No, but where are you really from? With the racial justice expert, Professor Nicola Rollock. But as Ngozi also said to my colleagues

on the Today programme, she wants the attention to remain on those women which that palace reception was designed to spotlight, who have been victims, and in my next guest's case, survivors of violence. Because my first guest today has never spoken on air before about something which changed the course of her life. She now wants to be heard, and you are her audience. Rachel Watts has spent her life hiding a secret. Now 40, she was seven years old when Russell Bishop, who became known in the newspapers as the Babes in the Wood murderer, abducted, attacked and sexually assaulted

her in 1990. It's a crime that should never have happened, as back in 1987, Russell Bishop had been charged with the murders of two nine-year-olds, Nicola Fellows and Karen Hadaway. But police were unable to secure a conviction when a series of prosecution blunders meant evidence and testimonies failed to stand up in court. Bishop was able to walk free, and three years later, he abducted and attacked

my guest today, Rachel, for leaving her for dead. Miraculously, she survived, and it was her legal testimony as a seven-year-old girl which finally meant Bishop was convicted and put behind bars, despite him protesting his innocence. However, in 2018, you may remember forensic scientists presented new DNA evidence and Bishop finally received two life sentences for the murders of Nicola Fellows and Karen Hadaway, with a minimum of 36 years in prison. Ever since her attack, Rachel's family have sought to protect her privacy, hoping she could lead as normal life as possible. Rachel has never done a broadcast interview about what happened to her, but since Russell Bishop's death in prison in

January earlier this year, she decided she wanted to tell her story. I do have to warn you, there is some graphic detail in this interview, including details of sexual abuse, which you may find distressing. When I spoke to Rachel, she began by describing to me what she was doing on that Sunday afternoon in early February 1990 when Russell Bishop abducted her. I had gone to a friend's house on my rollerboots to see if they wanted to come out and play, but unfortunately they weren't home.

And on my way home I lost control and I bumped into a wall. So I went home and my father was planting pansies in the front garden and I told him that I'd just dunked my head. And so he gave me a pound coin and told me to go to the sweet shop you know the whole sort of 90s walk it off kind of attitude that we were all brought up with you know fall over pick self up walk it off yes and go down to the sweet shop hopefully go down to the sweet shop yeah so that that's what I was doing and what do you remember about what happened when you came into contact with Russell Bishop um I was lost I don't think we'd

been living in Whitehawk for very long and I couldn't quite find my way back home and Russell Bishop was doing work on his car. My father's a mechanic so it didn't even occur to me that he was any kind of danger. It always seemed very familiar to me so I asked him for directions and that's when he grabbed me and threw me into the boot of his car. You must have been absolutely terrified. Do you remember what was going through your mind? I don't really remember what was going through my head. I know that I had... It occurred to me to take off my roller boots

because I thought if he opened the boot of the car, I might have stood a better chance to run away if I had my roller boots off. I was banging on the roof lid of the car, trying to make as much noise as possible, but unfortunately he told me to stop and that if I didn't stop, he was going to kill me. So I stopped I offered him the money that I had

the pound coin in my pocket I said look I've got money but obviously I don't think a pound coin was going to cut it so well no you were a little girl just trying to do anything you could to get out of this terrifying situation. Yeah. He drove you 14 miles to a beauty spot called Devil's Dyke on the South Downs in Sussex. Yes. What do you remember about what happened when he let you out of the car? He picked me up and threw me onto the back seat of the car.

He stripped me naked and then proceeded to make me do stuff. He made me suck his penis and then he penetrated me. I remember feeling sort of wet and warm and I sort of touched and I noticed there was blood. And I said, is that your blood or mine? Then he put his hands around my throat and started to strangle me. The last thing I remember trying to say was that I can't breathe, and then nothing. And you were left for dead in some bushes? Yeah, he thought I was dead. And he disposed of my body in amongst some gorse bushes. Well the doctors said

it was miraculous that you had survived and survived without brain damage. Yeah yeah I suffer terribly with memory problems which could be attributed to complex PTSD or potentially the asphyxiation, but there's no way of telling. Do you remember how you managed to get to some safety? Do you remember coming around and coming to? Yeah, I woke up, crawled my way out and pushed my way out of the brambles, which cut my arms and my legs and scratched me all over. I was very dizzy and felt very sick. I couldn't walk very well. I kept falling over.

It was very muddy and I sort of stumbled more than walking I was sort of falling over and crawling a bit and um I saw two headlights in the distance my first thought was is that still him because it was it was very dark and I couldn't couldn't make out the car, just the headlights. I was like, could that still be him? You know, he's going to finish me off type thing. But also, it was very cold, and I had no clothes on. It was February, and it was a case of, well, if I don't try and get some help, then I'll probably die from hypothermia.

You must have been so cold and so scared. Yeah, yeah, I was covered in blood and mud and, yeah. And what happened when you approached those headlights? Thankfully, there was a couple in the car called Susan and David. It must have been quite a shock for them. I think they were there enjoying a nice flask of tea on a Sunday evening and yeah so I approached them. They immediately wrapped me up in a coat. They tried offering me some tea but I think they were advised not to because obviously they wanted sort of DNA swabs and stuff.

So they just kept me warm until an ambulance arrived. I remember the ride to the hospital, more sort of like lights flashing as we were going past in the windows. Then I remember being told, because I don't really remember the days, weeks or months after. That's where my memories sort of stop, basically basically I don't remember much after it but you um you go to the hospital and and presumably your family come quickly my mother my mother came yeah yeah they weren't allowed to examine me or do anything until my mother was present and she said that when she arrived I was busy colouring in Rupert Bear in a colouring book.

And apparently I was more upset about losing my brand new jumper because I thought my mother would be cross. But her words were that we can always get a new jumper. We can't get a new you. I know you're a mother yourself and you know children of the age you were then, having been a mum and seen them around their friends it speaks to I suppose what you're trying to prioritize as a child that that would have been how you were at that moment yeah and it's you know if I also can just say at this point how very sorry I am for you on every single level that this happened and how hard it must be for you to talk about this,

but I know you want to for a range of reasons at this point. Yeah, I mean, I'll be honest, I feel quite numb about it. I still suffer with intrusive thoughts, so I still have all those images in my head which play in sort of 4K detail and surround sound in my head. And it's your memory as well, though, the vividness of it, that really did lead to a huge change, didn't it, in terms of bringing this individual, Russell Bishop, to justice, which hadn't happened in the way it should have done a couple of years earlier?

Yeah, yeah. The defence attorney tried to make me out as being untrustworthy and just a seven-year-old girl and that my testimony shouldn't be trusted. But everybody who heard my testimony said that I was very clear, very concise. You know, you identified him in a line-up. You remembered details as well about the car that he'd stolen. I mean, you didn't know that, but you remembered things that really did help the police have the evidence. Yes, yeah, the banging on the boot of the car left indentations

and also paint fragments on my clothes when they were found. The identity parade, he tried to change his appearance by using the water from the toilet bowl to darken his hair and slick his hair back so that it would appear different. You were dubbed giving evidence and then you know giving evidence in court but also giving evidence in the run-up you were dubbed as Britain's bravest little girl yes at the time I mean what was experience like, trying to help the authorities? To be honest, I don't remember much about the days and weeks afterwards. I just remember answering their questions as best as I could, which is what I do now.

You know, if somebody asks me a question about it, I just answer it to the best of my knowledge and to the best of my memory that I have. But it was his response that must have also been incredibly challenging, to say the least. He was convicted. He was jailed for life with a minimum sentence of 14 years in 1990. But he always maintained his innocence until very recently, which we'll get to. He even tried to sue Sussex Police, I understand, for wrongful imprisonment, regularly applying for parole. How aware of that were you and what was the effect? I was very aware of it. The victim liaison people used to call me regularly, which is when my agoraphobia and the sort of anxiety and stuff crept in

um it really really hit me hard in 2018 because I spent many many years sort of thinking did I convict the wrong man did I pick the wrong wrong person? Because he sort of tried to... Resisted that. Yeah, exactly. He said that he was innocent all along. And of course, that started putting doubts into my mind until the 2018 trials when he turned around and used, I think his words were that he did what he did to shame and belittle me when I read that when I heard that I I completely broke down because I was like I was nobody to him I didn't know him he didn't know me so why did he feel the need to shame and belittle a seven-year-old girl that he he never knew how how does that work you

know how can what has to go through your mind to to make you say well you know you you say that I'm a paedophile so I'm gonna be a paedophile well it doesn't quite work like that. You talked about that trial in 2018. He was retried for the murders of Nicola Fellows and Karen Hadaway when new forensic DNA evidence came to light. And what was again striking was that he protested his innocence at the murder of those two girls, but he admitted what he had done to you. Did that give you any vindication or any any closure I mean

it's a horrific context but how how did that affect you it gave me it gave me solace and the fact that I knew that I convicted the right person after all these years it was sort of bittersweet you know because he finally admitted it but the way in which he admitted it was very painful that shame and belittling comment really broke me and as well as trying to cope with what had happened to you survive it and and build a life you've been also worrying like you say about whether you'd done the right thing or not from the age of seven yeah absolutely I must admit I led a fairly normal life up until eight years ago I married I had I went out, I did things. Now I don't leave the house. I suffer from severe agoraphobia,

which unfortunately leads to what they call gastric urgency. So unfortunately, if I don't get to a toilet in time, and it is immediate, I need to get to a toilet. Otherwise, if I don't, I will end up soiling myself, which has happened on several occasions. So I generally don't leave the house, because when I have to go out, I have severe anxiety and panic attacks.

Was there something particular eight years ago that led to that, being the change in you that you'd been trying to kind of carry on up until that point? would call me and they would say hey he's going up for parole and then it would be a case of they'd ring me again a few months later and say his parole has been pushed back and then they would call me again and say it's being pushed back again and then they would call me and say well he's been refused parole by which point it was time to do the whole cycle again. You know, he'd be up for parole again. And then the cycle continued. So it was, I know they thought they were doing a good thing. But in actual fact, I found it detrimental because I felt like if they could find me, if they finally caught up with me, then who else can? So it put fear back into you you active fear back into your life

yeah because I moved house a lot I moved flat a lot and then I settled down with my my current husband so it's a horrible irony that in trying to support you yeah it is it triggered and re-traumatized you to this extent yes the irony is yeah your friends and family how much have you spoken to to people in your life about this over the years I've kept fairly quiet I I don't really allow myself to get close to people I haven't done because holding on to this secret for so long and trying to explain to people why I am the way I am you know why I don't leave the house and why I suffer from severe anxiety and memory problems. So I just didn't allow myself to get close to people. My husband spent many, many years trying to sort of demolish the brick walls that I built up

because I built brick walls to stop myself from feeling. It was to protect myself. And he sort of smashed them down and now I sort of I allowed myself to be loved and to love him and it's kind of made me a big softy really I mean it's very important to have that bond I I'm sure, and that support. And I know your parents were always at pains to try and protect your identity, to try and give you that choice so that you could go through life without people knowing. Yeah, they wanted to finally come out with it and sort of release myself from the sort of secret

that I'd been hiding for so long. I'd never have done it when he was alive because I didn't want him to see who I was now on the off chance that he ever got out and also I didn't want him having the satisfaction of knowing just how much damage he's done and how much he affected my life. Russell Bishop died of cancer age 55 in January of this year. Yes he did. How did you feel when you heard that news? I was neither elated nor sort of sad about it. I have unfortunately become very numb to the fact, you know, which is why I'm able to speak about it so brazenly.

That's just how I've sort of internally dealt with it. It's just, it is what it is. This is your first broadcast interview about this, talking like this. How does it feel saying it like this and and being public um it feels good because i want to be heard i i want people to know how much damage he caused. In a selfish way, I want people to know that I'm not okay and that I am unfortunately broken. Hopefully, I won't forever be broken

and one day I might be able to be okay and be better but but for now I'm sort of not great no sorry it's okay please don't apologize do you do you feel that being able to say finally because it's so it's so striking it's so moving to hear that you you felt you had to wait till he was dead to be able to to speak like this publicly and say how it's affected you because you didn't want him to be able to find you or see what his actions had done to you but do you do you feel any glimmer of hope that maybe by doing this and trying to free yourself that it will change your life I'm hoping it will I mean part of the whole process of me coming out and telling my story is that it will be a form of healing, you know, that I can finally release myself from these constraints and from the shame of it, because I felt very shameful.

It was only literally sort of a few months ago that I came out and told my dad and my mum that everybody thought that I was unconscious when he raped me. But I wasn't. And I told my mum and dad for the first time a few months ago that I was I was fully conscious when he did all those things and of course everybody had hoped that I would never remember but I do remember and I remember everything so I'm hoping that that one day I will be better because I can't see myself living like a prisoner for the rest of my life, which is essentially what I've become. Why was it important to tell your mum and dad that detail? We never really spoke about it.

As I said, we're a family of sort of, you fall over, you pick yourself up and brush yourself off and get on with it. So we've never really spoken about it. You know, they've never wanted to upset me and I've never wanted to upset them. So it was just sort of the unspoken thing, you know, the elephant in the room that nobody mentions. And I just thought that if I was going to be coming out and saying everything publicly, the least I could do was tell my mum and dad first so that they didn't find out about it from a third party or from another source and it's probably very important to you to to let them know what what happened to you as a little girl as their little girl i'm not i'm not sure whether it's something that i didn't speak about initially because i was ashamed of it or whether it was something that i didn't speak about initially because I was ashamed of it or whether it was something that I didn't

initially remember and that it's come to me over this over years what have you said to your children about this um well I told them before the the newspaper article was written I have four children my eldest is 17 and my youngest is 10 and I told each of them and to be honest it was almost like a light bulb went off in their head and it's like that's why you're the way you are that's why you can't take us to the park that's why you can't take us to this holiday and that holiday you know and and this is why you didn't let us go out and play you know and spend time in the park on our own it made them yeah my eldest especially it was very sort of helpful to her to know that I wasn't doing all these things out of spite and just to be a sort of over controlling mother. I was doing it because I had a real compelling fear. And I always told myself before I had children that I wouldn't wrap them up in cotton wool and that I would try and be

as laid back and you know easy going but it didn't happen especially my girls I have two girls I hated it when they had to walk to school and I mean even my youngest he got to an age where he wanted to start walking to school on his own and I still stood out in the street to watch him we lived two minutes away from the school and I would watch him walk to school because I still had that fear of like two minutes down the road anything could happen in that two minutes anybody could just swing past but I I have my husband that sort of like that other voice telling me that it's okay and that you know I need to let the rains out a little bit and to be the voice of reason that that's what he is he's the voice of reason and he's my rock and he's just absolutely everything to me I couldn't have done any of this without his support and I couldn't have done it

without my children's support you know if if they hadn't been all for it and they've even turned around and said you know how brave they think I am which is lovely to hear from your children yes I bet and what a lovely man that you're with as well he is wonderful he has to put up with a lot bless him but he's he truly is wonderful you know I also just wanted to ask you, there's a horrible detail in all of this that I'm sure you've thought about, which is, well, there are many horrible details,

but before this even happened to you, you know, Russell Bishop had been on trial. And some people have said, you know, you're the victim that never should have been if real justice had happened there. Do you ever think about that? Yeah, some sometimes. But at the same time, it did happen.

And there's no point dwelling over it because you can't change what's happened. No. Obviously, mistakes were made, unfortunately, which led to him being able to do what's happened. No. Obviously mistakes were made, unfortunately, which led to him being able to do what he did to me. I'm just thankful that I survived and I was able to put that man behind bars. People have told me that I probably saved many other lives. Again, it's not something that I sort of pat myself on the back and go, well done about, you know.

It's literally just what other people have told me. But, you know, they've said that because they feel that that would be the case and they want to obviously, in some way, I suppose, to balance out how you've made yourself feel over these years, perhaps. And he had made you feel as well with his denial, to tell you how remarkable it was, what you did, giving evidence and identifying him.

I've been called lots of things stoic, brave. I don't really feel like any of those things. I just get on and do it, you know. How do you feel about the way that the media gave him this title, the Babes in the Wood killer? I mean, in some respects, it makes him sound sort of infamous, you know, like the Moors murderers and and people like this to give him a title like that makes him sort of infamous like someone who should be remembered and really he shouldn't be remembered he should die and his memory should just go with it because he doesn't deserve to be remembered

Yes, and the names of the women, the girls instead Nicola Fellows and Karen Hadaway and also your story should be the ones that we do remember Yes, exactly Nicola Fellows and Karen Hadaway deserve to be remembered Well, I would also venture what you have said today should also be very much in people's minds. Thank you.

And I'm very, very grateful we all are. I know that one of the ways forward, perhaps for you, maybe not quite now as the weather's turned a little bit, we'll be sitting in the garden a bit more or trying to get a bit of, when it comes, sunlight on your face and and feel a bit better because i mean i know you mentioned right at the beginning of our conversation your dad was planting pansies but the garden is is a bit of a solace for you it is yes and it's

also a bit of a state um okay unfortunately i'm i'm not physically able to do too much in the garden. So Eileen Fairweather has kindly set up a GoFundMe. It's under Rachel Watts Survivor. And that is to hopefully raise funds for my garden to be made into a nice place where I can sit that I feel safe that I can potter about and and do gardening because I I have lots of house plants I'd like to have sort of a nice garden which I can sit out in the summer I'm vitamin d deficient because I don't get enough sunlight. So it would be very helpful for my health as well to be able to sit in a garden and get some of those sun rays. Eileen Fairweather, mentioned by Rachel, is the journalist who originally covered

Rachel's story when she was seven years old, but never revealed her name as was her parents wish she talked to the family at length i should say if you were affected by any of the the issues raised in that item in that interview there are links with further information on rachel's story and details of the bbc action line on our website many of you and thank you for this are getting in touch this morning a message here saying this is very powerful and useful testimony thank you rachel it will help others understand how abuse affects others and how others can heal and how bad things affect the psyche bless you another one gosh this interview on women's hour is one of the most moving and gut-wrenching things i've ever heard please send this brave woman love and comfort i hope she gets the help she needs to be free and to free herself from what this evil man did to her.

She's astonishing. David says a powerful and moving interview. Not easy listening. Rachel is a brave and honest lady. So unfair what happened to her as a seven year old. I'm sure everyone listening wishes her every happiness possible. Another. Oh, my goodness.

What a brave and courageous interview this morning. I really hope one day Rachel will know herself right to her core that she is not broken. Another message, what a strong and brave woman to speak out. I'm sat here sobbing hearing what she went through and continues to go through after her horrific ordeal. She should just know that everyone listening is feeling so much love for her right now. Another one that's come in on email, this is one of the hardest things I've ever listened to. It's utterly horrendous.

What a vile and cruel man. An incredibly brave and courageous lady. Such insight into her appalling experience. What a truly wicked man. I hope he rots in hell, says Gillian, who's listening in Winchester. Josie on Twitter, many messages coming via social media. Incredibly brave and articulate woman.

I'm in tears listening and wishing her well. This was a very big moment for Rachel to speak on air about this, so your messages will be reaching her, I'm sure. And another one here. Thank you to such an extraordinarily brave woman, Rachel, for sharing her story. Well, we are very grateful to Rachel. Rachel Watts is the name of the woman who you were listening to there, who's spoken for the first time on air about what happened to her when she was seven years old and she wanted you to hear it and hear it. You have and you've

responded. So thank you for that. Let me tell tell you something about we mentioned this at the top of the programme I did promise you some music and who is going to provide that let me tell you because my next guest has been hailed it's a pretty good title to have as opera's coolest soprano by New York Times magazine I'm talking about Danielle Denise who's just joined me in the studio. She has starred in the West End musical Man of La Mancha, alongside Frasier star Kelsey Grammer. She's hosted the BBC prom. She's performed on stage with LL Cool J,

as well as singing in a Ridley Scott movie, Like You Do. I could go on. But in the run-up to this Christmas, Danielle is starring in a new opera. It's a wonderful life at the English National Opera as the angel Clara. But being a busy woman, like busy women on this programme, she's also next week performing in an immersive experience of Handel's Messiah. I will get to talk to Danielle and hear her speaking voice shortly, we all will.

But first, she's going to perform I Know That My Redeemer Liveth from Handel's Messiah, accompanied by Bernard Robertson on the piano. That was beautiful. Danielle, Denise, thank you so much for that. I Know That My Redeemer Liveth from Handel's Messiah accompanied there by Bernard Robertson on the piano. Danielle, are you able to talk after that? That was really hard to sing after that very gut-wrenching interview. Well, thank you for acknowledging that.

A lot of our listeners, of course, have been in touch. But also I think music's a big part of how we try to get through things as well, isn't it? Absolutely. And the song, even if you're not religious, it's, to me, so many elements of the Messiah, as religious as they are, they don't have to be. For example, that aria for me is about finding your personal faith, even in the midst of darkness. And I wish that for Rachel. Yes, for Rachel this morning.

We're getting a lot of message along those lines for their wishes for her do you think so it's like this odd question you've got so much to concentrate on I suppose when you're performing what you're performing though is it important to attach meaning to it while you're in it absolutely and um and probably to my detriment sometimes um I just for me singing is all about expressing emotion and that comes with the aid of text. So for me, there's no place in singing for vocal vanity or for personal assessment of one's own vocal merits. I really don't think about that at all. You have to think about what you're communicating across. And yeah, that can be an emotional experience, but that's the magic of music.

Talk to me about being an angel. Clara, it's a wonderful life and the run up to Christmas. I've been waiting for many years to make my debut with the English National Opera. And it's come at the most amazing time in my career. But it happened that we had a huge shock of news in the middle of this rehearsal period for a brand new production of Jake Heggie's opera, which is almost like a musical. It's just so catchy and beautiful and feel good. It's called It's a Wonderful Life. And I play Clara, the angel. It's based on Jimmy Stewart's classic American film. Although in the film, the angel is Clarence.

And they decided to switch this and make her the sort of soprano voice of an angel. I think they felt they could work with it a bit more in the soprano range. So I've become Clara. And the show is by Alita Collins, conducted by Nicole Payment. It's got an incredible big ensemble cast, including the ENO's Harewood Young Artists. And I never leave the stage for the entire show. The whole story is seen through Clara's eyes. She has to rescue George Bailey, who's about to jump off a bridge. Clara's been waiting for 200 years on a swing, waiting and hoping to get the chance to earn her wings so she can graduate, essentially, and become Angel first class instead of Angel second class. And then they decide to give her that chance and she falls down to earth. They cut her swing, she falls down to earth and um they say to her you have to discover who george bailey is what he dreamed of and what he wanted to achieve in order that you could save him from the brink and so the whole story passes through of george's life from from childhood to teenager to young adult. And the story to me is really about

when you assess your life, what is it that defines you and your happiness? Is it the riches of your wallet or the riches of your character? And we don't always have the riches of our wallet. You know, some don't have it at all. And this story is here, I think, to remind us that family, love, happiness, togetherness is what really counts at Christmas.

And I think it's those elements that George has to learn about that even though his life didn't go the way that he wanted it to go. And even though he didn't take all the boxes that he thought he was going to take, that he did other things. He changed people's lives and he helped people and that he actually meant something to the people in his community. And he didn't realize that. And he needs to go through this journey with Clara to realize it. So it's a powerful role and message, I suppose, in the run up to Christmas. Absolutely.

And a very demanding one. So good luck with that. Thank you. Very, very much. Do you get any time off around the festive? I will have Christmas off, but it's a sort of my own undertaking. But I really wanted to make three of these projects that I'm working on. So I've just finished Lao, I'm at Royal Opera House. And then this It's a Wonderful Life, which has been a real privilege to be a part

of for my debut, but also during this terrible news of the ENO having their funds cut. Yeah, I was going to ask you about how that's affected morale. Well, morale took a nosedive on that day, the Friday morning, and we actually had a company rehearsal with Full Chorus. So we all saw each other. The company was shocked. They had no notice of this and had up to that point, as Stuart Murphy, the CEO of V&O, told the company had been getting, you know,

a great report card every three years. So it was incredibly shocking and there's a lot of fear and a lot of anxiety but at the same time I have to say uh it's been incredible to be with the company in a lower moment because you get to see what people are really made of that's when you learn what what what people are truly made of and um I feel incredibly privileged to be on stage with them and you know the whole world is rallied around you know that's the other thing and I think we we forget in this competitive world that we live in that um actually as much as we all are side by side competitors actually all of the opera houses we are comrades in this ecosystem of the classical music industry um and

the whole business and the music world not only classical has rallied around them so I hope I hope it makes a difference. Well this is just in case you missed that it's about the the changing to to the funding of the English National Opera with its annual grant from the Arts Council England as a statement from the Arts Council England said with our commitment to invest more across the rest of the country and to reach more and more places change was inevitable we recognize that changing the way in which we fund English National Opera is challenging news for those who work there E&O's opera's futures in their hand in their hands excuse me and we hope to engage in detailed planning with them we've offered 17 million over the next three years and we it goes on to say we continue to support opera

as a platform, which I know, of course, you'll feel very passionate about, Danielle. And I wish you all the best with it because you, as I say, a busy woman and this immersive performance of Handel's Messiah. That's at the Theatre Royal.

That's at Drew Lane, yeah. Next week. Causing Frozen to do an immersive Messiah, which was fantastic. Hello to Elsa. And then performing as well in It's a Wonderful Life at the E&O. Thank you for giving us a taster this morning. It was beautiful to hear your voice and then your speaking voice as well,

as promised. Danielle, Denise there. Now, where are you really from? A question. Some of you listening will be very familiar with that question set in a certain way. And that's something I'll be discussing with the academic Professor Nicola Rollock in a moment. We're talking about this today because it's a question that the black British charity boss, Ngozi Falani, was repeatedly asked at an event earlier this week at Buckingham Palace.

She's spoken this morning and describes that experience as abuse. Ngozi said Lady Susan Hussey, a close confidant of the late Queen, brushed her hair aside to read her name badge first and then questioned her about which part of Africa she came from. Lady Hussey has resigned since the incident from her post. The palace described the remarks as unacceptable and deeply regrettable and a spokesperson for Prince William, because Lady Hussey is actually his godmother, said racism has no place in our society. Ngozi Fulani spoke to my colleagues on the Today programme this morning and wanted you to hear some of that. I'm very clear about what happened. So you asked me where I'm from and I tell you

from here. Yeah, but where are you really from? Do you think she would have known? She did say the words, where are you really from? She said it more than once. And then where are your people from? And I'm like, so at that point you're thinking, well, lady, you know, this is not appropriate and i'm in a room full of of women who have experienced domestic abuse of advocates of so many different people that i how do i handle this situation um kindly and carefully nicola rollock listening to that professor of social policy and race at king's

college london also the author of theacial Code a book we discussed recently together you may recall. Nicola hello again good morning. Good morning Emma. Can I get your reaction first of all to hearings we thought was important to hear from Ngozi herself today. Yeah so look I think that my reaction is perhaps reflective of my 25 years working in the field of racial justice. So actually, I'm relatively unmoved. And I'm also relatively unsurprised. Now, I'm sure you're going to ask me why, Emma. And the reason is, is I recognise why there's been so much attention on this particular incident, because of course it's to do with the palace. But actually these experiences, these types of

experiences are commonplace across every facet of society. And it's something that people of colour have to learn to navigate and understand and deal with as a normal part of our existence in British society. And what was very striking to me as well, though, was the contrast between how Ngozi said she was feeling about going to this event and then how she was made to feel at the event and also because it could be any event yes you're right it's at a palace and it's got the same the palace and it's got the attention it's got because of who said it and the context it's in but if you sort of extrapolate that out I was very struck by when she talked about well what do you do in that moment as well you know she couldn't tell who do you tell and how how do you talk about it? And she was lucky, I suppose, in some ways that she had a couple of people with her. Well, absolutely. And as I say, these incidents, these types of incidents, and we note that the palace is going to conduct a review into what happened.

But these types of incidents are commonplace. And indeed, they came up time and time again in my own research with black female professors in research that i've carried out with black middle-class parents but there are calculations so to your question there are calculations that we need to do and i include myself as in this as a black woman that we are constantly engaged in as people of colour in society and you know speaking to a researcher before we came on and I said the way I think about this is that we often have a radar or if you imagine maybe being a lighthouse and the way a lighthouse sweeps the terrain for ships and a radar or sometimes when I'm talking to people I describe this as

being like the terminating that you're reading you're calculating you're breaking down moments and so I think for people of colour there is this constant set of calculations that we have to make and I really think it's important to make a distinction here, Emma, between what can be understood as always thinking about race or having a chip on your shoulder. I'm actually saying that it's more sophisticated than that, that actually what we're doing is, so you enter a space like anybody else, but one is aware that there's a possibility that race might occur. Okay, so you don't go in necessarily anticipating it but from one's wider experiences in society we recognize that it's commonplace and i note and then i'm obviously not in a position to comment on the details of what happened but i note there was um

a discussion about what happened with Ngozi and her hair. And, you know, for many black women, the subject of hair and indeed white women, although it's not just limited to white women, is something that we are constantly battling. And there's a constant carefulness that we have to deploy when we're in particular spaces and also when questions are asked, not just about where we're from, but also in terms of our hair. And you mentioned my book as part of your introduction.

And indeed, I explore that very theme between white women and what they do when it comes to black women and their hair in one of the chapters of the book. But if I could just give you a very brief personal example, and I'm not prone to giving personal examples, but I want to drive home the point of how very commonplace this is. It's not just in these particular elite spaces, if you will. And I kind of note the comments made by Samuel Kasumu and also Margaret Casey Hayford, who are also speaking on the Today

programme this morning but in the workplace walking down the road shopping just general living and I made the point of reflecting on this to your researcher that knowing this means for me that I take a particular stance in particular spaces. So for example, aware of the number of Black women who die in childbirth, aware of the fact of the data showing that our experiences and our pain is often not taken seriously within the health setting, I will not wear a head wrap in health settings. Why? It's clear that I'm Black, but my concern is, based on my experiences in this country, and indeed reflected in the research that I've carried out with other Black women, my concern is that I will be misread, further misread, if I wear a head wrap. And my point is that, say, also the calculations that are being made all the time. It was also interesting, Ngozi, in her original statement

that she put out on social media yesterday, talked about wanting there to be change as well and there to be kindness around this in how it's dealt with. It's not for her to be concerned about what happens to the individual, but an education piece as well on this, because you don't just want it to carry on these sorts of calculations and these questions. You're looking, and she's looking, she says,

for change as well. It's also interesting to hear it chimes with some of your research. That's why we wanted to get you back on because we only recently spoke, didn't we, about your book and your research. Nicola, we do have to leave it there for today, but I'm sure we will talk again.

Thank you for your time, insights, and also sharing something personal there today. It's very helpful in this conversation. Nicola Rollock, Professor of Social Policy and Race at King's College London and the author of The Racial Code. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

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