Woman's Hour - Rachel Weisz, Lewes FC, Adele Roberts Marathon Challenge

Episode Date: April 21, 2023

Academy award-winner Rachel Weisz joins Anita Rani to talk about her new series Dead Ringers, a psycho-sexual thriller about identical twins who are gynaecologists and obstetricians. It is a new adaptation of the 1988 film starring Jeremy Irons, in which Rachel plays twins Elliot and Beverly Mantle. She explains why it was important to her to adapt the story with female leads, and the technical process in performing both characters and what it felt like to watch someone giving birth.Anita is joined by Maggie Murphy, the CEO of Lewes Football Club. Maggie featured on our Power List highlighting 30 women working in sport in the UK. Maggie discusses why the club is so unique and how women’s football should grow. The US Supreme Court has delayed its decision on the abortion pill Mifepristone - until midnight Friday. Allowing access to the drug which is used for more that half of all U.S. abortions. The Supreme Court was asked to look into the matter at the request of President Joe Biden’s Administration after two federal judges issued opposing rulings on its use. This is the most significant case since the Supreme Court ended the nationwide right to abortion last year, by over turning the landmark 1973 Roe V Wade. But how much can we read into this delay? We ask associate Professor of American Literature and Politics at University of East Anglia Emma Long. The Radio 1 DJ and presenter Adele Roberts joins Anita ahead of the London Marathon on Sunday. This is Adele's third marathon but her first since she was diagnosed with bowel cancer and she’s trying to break a World Record in the process! Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. I want you all to get involved in a majorly controversial issue this morning. It's been causing division for decades, probably even hundreds of years, in cultures around the world. The subject I'm talking about is body hair. Or more specifically, women's body hair. The reason it's crawled back onto the agenda,

beautiful and talented Hollywood star Rachel McAdams has done a photo shoot specifically requesting minimal touch-ups and definitely no airbrushing of her armpit hair. She's an adult female and therefore like most other adults she has armpit hair and it's there for all to see. But what's the big deal? It's only hair. Or is it? How do you feel about body hair? Is there a generational divide in your household? Are you as smooth as a dolphin but your daughter has chosen to let it all grow? Is she furrier than the cat? Or maybe it's the other way around. Have you let your armpit hair grow but lasered your pubic hair?

Have you been a regular waxer, shaver, bleacher but have given up the lot? Why do we remove it in the first place? Speaking as a South Asian woman in her 40s, hair removal was a rite of passage. We all have the trauma of our first waxing experience and I know there are plenty of other cultures for whom it's the same.'s looking at my Turkish Greek and Middle Eastern sisters but times are changing and women are owning what nature gave them but is it generational are they reclaiming their body hair now for feminism or for fashion get in touch with your thoughts the usual number to text 84844 you can contact me via social media. You can email me through the website or you can drop me a WhatsApp or a voice note. Please try and drop me a voice note. It'd be nice

to hear your voices. 03700 100 444. In fact, you should just save that number into your phone as Woman's Hour. Also on the programme today, actor Rachel Weisz popped into the studio to tell me all about her brilliant new series, Dead Ringers, and it's got nothing to do with impersonations. Maggie Murphy, the CEO of Lewis Football Club and Woman's Hour powerlister, will be here to talk about making change in the beautiful game. And the wonderful Radio 1 DJ Adele Roberts is running the London Marathon on Sunday and is hoping to break a world record to become the fastest woman to run the marathon with a stoma. And we will be cheering her all the way.

Do get in touch with anything you want to talk to us about here on the programme 84844, but particularly how you feel about body hair. But first, you may remember the 1988 David Cronenberg film Dead Ringers, starring Jeremy Irons as twins Elliot and Beverly Mantle who are both gynaecologists. It was a psychological thriller following the twins and it was included on multiple lists of top thrillers and scary movies.

Well now there's a new adaptation with a woman as the lead. Rachel Weisz, the brilliant Rachel Weisz, plays both twins, still called Elliot and Beverly, who share everything including drugs and lovers, and will stop at nothing to push medical boundaries to improve healthcare and childbirth for women. She describes it as a psychosexual thriller about identical twins who are

gynaecologists and obstetricians and are massively codependent. Rachel has won multiple awards, including an Oscar for Best Support Actress for her role in The Constant Gardener and an Olivier Award for Best Actress for her portrayal of Blanche Dubois in A Streetcar Named Desire. Dead Ringers launches on Amazon Prime Video today and I spoke to Rachel last week and began by asking her why she suggested the new adaptation.

I've always been a fan of the film since it came out. I've seen it many times and one day I just had a little daydream. I was looking for material to develop to then act in and I just thought oh gosh I wonder if you could tell that story with two women doctors. Didn't seem to be a reason why you couldn't. So I went to a producer who said that seems like a good idea, Sue Nagel, and then I went to Alice Birch I was a huge fan of her writing and she had a little think about it and then she came on board so that was about four years ago so we've been it's been a very long conversation which led to her writing a pilot

and then organizing a writer's room which I was part of during lockdown for six weeks which was seven women all dreaming up story together. And I mean, I can speak to you more about that. No, I want to hear about that. You are here to ramble on as much as you want. You're in the right space to ramble on about an all female writing room. Tell me about that experience. It was really wonderful. Alice assembled the writers, she chose writers who all have a theatre background, because that's her background. She says that she chose the best writers. There was no kind of mandate that said it had to be only women, but it ended up being that way. And I think it would have been different had there been a man in the room because, you know, a lot of the conversations we we talked about films.

We love books. We liked, you know, we use our imaginations. Then inevitably people spoke about quite personal stories um so it would it would have been different had we not been all women I think yeah because the experience of watching it which is a visceral experience just the first episode I don't think I've ever seen um birth um being portrayed in the way it has been portrayed you think that you might have seen birthing in a quite a graphic way, but no, not until you see this. But you're watching it and you're like, oh God, this is so graphic, but so real. Alice and I were really interested in showing birth in the first episode. I think we felt like it was something that we don't often see. We're incredibly used to seeing violence and people being killed, death, blood surrounding that.

We're almost sort of immune to that at this point. So I think for us, we felt like it was, well, for me, I think it's a beautiful moment. It's kind of a miracle when a baby's born. And yeah, it was something we were really interested in showing. That is such a good point. You know, we do. We watch violence all day, every day. We're more than happy to watch people being shot and killed.

But yet, yes, the reality of birth is not something we're prepared to watch until now. Yeah, we didn't want to be coy about it. We wanted to, yeah, we were really interested in seeing it. So, yeah, so the first episode is very grounded. It is quite graphic. And then the show evolves after that and it gets... Hopefully you believe in these doctors' dreams. So Beverly wants to change the way that women birth. Elliot is a scientist and she wants to break the boundaries of medical ethics through science

and she wants to work on fertility and she does things eventually which are not even legal but we wanted you to believe in these doctors so as the show evolves and gets more heightened and quite operatic and often very darkly humorous I think it is funny yeah but hopefully you kind of believe in them at the beginning and then you can go on this this quite quite a ride with them and it is funny yeah but hopefully you kind of believe in them at the beginning and then you can go on this this quite um quite a ride with them and it is a ride um but the so like you've just explained they're both gynecologists obstetricians and they have this dream of creating setting up a birthing center together but their ethics are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Exactly. But what I found fascinating watching it is they are having this conversation. I think it's one of the later episodes where someone says, oh, it's not a hospital. And one of the characters, I don't know which one of the sisters it was, says, and I'm paraphrasing here, women aren't sick.

Yeah. They don't need to come to us because they're not sick and you in the first episode i think yes this is right you know and you you show the experience of a black woman who's not listened to of a woman who's fearful of coming into a hospital both of them have very tragic ends but they are very real experiences of women that we talk about a lot on women's hour yes well in the writer's room, many experts from different fields came to speak to us. Obstetricians, gynecologists, endocrinologists, longevity experts, doulas. And we read a lot of research about stories about women who were frightened to go to hospitals.

You know, it's just a fact and a shocking fact and something that came up we probably talked about that every day that you know the high mortality rate for for women of color um when they when they're giving birth um so yeah there was a there was a lot of information that we were being fed all the time that fed into the into the show and the the only sad thing is is all the patients we had to leave out there are so many different kinds of women with so many different experiences that we that fed into the show. And the only sad thing is, is all the patients we had to leave out. There are so many different kinds of women with so many different experiences that we couldn't get into that first hour.

So yeah, we're mourning all the people that were left out. And what does that do to the energy of a room where you're all coming up with a new drama and what you want to put in it when as a group of women, you're hearing story after story after story about births and the failings of a system.

Yes, I mean, a lot of the stories that we were told were very shocking and upsetting. And then we met some also very inspiring people who were trying to change the system and reorganise it. And we really fed all of that information, the factual information, into these two characters. So for Beverly, yeah, she says the system is completely broken and she needs, though, unfortunately, a lot of money.

And that's where she becomes morally compromised because she takes money from a source that is not morally clean, shall we say. I mean, that's a really big understatement. But, yeah, she wants to change the way that women birth. She has this plan to build a birthing centre, which is designed by women for women. So we started dreaming about like, what does female architecture look like? What would be a space that a woman designed for a woman to give birth in? And then

Elliot actually doesn't really care so much about women giving birth. She's the scientist. So she wants to, she's not interested in the natural way of doing things. She's into, you know, gene editing, CRISPR-Cas9. So we spoke to a lot of scientists who talked to us about that side of science. Yeah, there's a scene in it where both the sisters go to pitch to the woman who oversees this huge pharmaceutical company. And she's morally moral question mark because she's produced a drug that is a huge opioid that has killed hundreds of thousands of people. And that scene in itself is great to watch because I don't think I've seen that level of sort of high powered women having a business discussion about money in such a frank way. And there's one man at the table and he's told to shut up. Oh, yeah, I suppose you're right.

Yeah, they're a power couple, the Parkers. They're kind of a Sackler-like couple, a family, extremely rich, incredibly honest and upfront about their power, about their wealth, and the fact that they're only interested in making money. And I think some of Alice Birch's writing for them is just sensational. She loves writing dinner party scenes, and there are quite a lot of dinner party scenes in the show. Yeah, they're so corrupt and morally bankrupt. And I just I can't take my eyes off them when I watch them. They're just just astonishingly entertaining characters in all their badness. How much

fun did you have playing these two characters and being able to speak that script? It was the definitely the greatest joy of my career working alongside Alice Birch. And each character that I played, Beverly and Elliot, sometimes I say Belliot because they get combined. You know, they're so psychologically complex and layered. And the thing that was really important to us both was that they're professionally at the top of their game. I mean, they're brilliant.

They're leaders in their fields, but their personal lives are massively dysfunctional. And we just love that, that kind of dichotomy of being a high flying professional with this really highly, for me, highly entertaining and very messy private life. And what's it like to act those characters? Because like you say, they're both psychologically very different, personalities very different, stepping into into that mindset and how did you do it how did you actually film it what was the practicalities of playing two different characters did you do one scene every day did you do one character than the other how did it work well you'd have to film one scene and complete it for Elliot and Beverly so we'd start with Elliot because she's more um assertive and

she's more on the front foot and she sets the pace so we film Elliot then I'd run into hair makeup costume get changed and um come back and shoot the other side of Beverly and then the whole the whole um crew was involved because the sound editor, the sound guy would have to take out Elliot's dialogue so that when Beverly's speaking, she doesn't speak on top of it. And I had an earwig with Elliot's words just in my ear so no one else could hear them. And the whole crew would ready themselves, lighting, camera, VFX, motion control, props, set dressing, you know, would do the twin swap. So we had to learn to walk at the beginning. It was a new skill. It was like a foal learning to walk.

But by the end, we were fast. We got it down. We could do it in 15 minutes. Amazing. So you weren't acting with another person. You just had the voice in your ear? No, I'm sorry. I very much was acting with another person.

She's called Kitty Hawthorne. She was still at Guildhall. Shout out to Kitty. Yeah, shout out to Kitty, my incredible acting partner. Yeah, she was at drama school. She sent in an audition. She's a brilliant actress. And she was Beverly to my Elliot and vice versa. Yeah, she's brilliant. And she's actually in the series. In episode four, she plays the twins' mom in the flashbacks in the 70s. So that's her. Yeah. There's some amazing conversations around female health care and health generally in the 70s, so that's her, yeah. There's some amazing conversations around female healthcare

and health generally in the series. How important was the element of progressing female healthcare for you and everyone involved in the series? Sort of putting that conversation out there, making people think. Well, the idea of the show when Alice and I first started working on it began with the characters, these two women who have very different dreams. And we just started to think about things that we were interested in and things that were being brought to us in the writer's room by these experts. So, yeah, it just ended up being things that Alice and I are interested in. And I think the things that interest you and interest perhaps the subjects that are related to the subject you talk about on this brilliant show is very much Beverly. I think Beverly should come here and be interviewed by you because she would just have a field day.

And Elliot, not so much. She doesn't really care quite in the same way. She wants to, I don't know, maybe win a Nobel Prize for her science. She's not altruistic or careful or that empathic as a person. She might be, I don't want to judge her, but just verging on the edge of being an sociopath well I love it I love it a bit but she's not she's not really a do she's not really she's not a do-gooder she's not yeah no no no but Beverly really is it's just in her in her bones yeah and that's that's the that's the brilliant device of having twins these two women because

you can have the sort of extreme because you're right because not every woman not every woman feels the same way you can have a variety of different experiences and feelings and you've done it with these two characters and elliot doesn't want to be a mom she doesn't want to have a child whereas your beverly does so yeah there's lots of different kinds of female stories and stories about different kinds of women as you mentioned the sackler like power couple um you know I wouldn't say they're aspirational. They're, you know, they're rotten to the core and kind of deliciously entertaining. How does this piece of work compare to some of the other stuff that you've done? Where do you put it?

I mean, this was your idea. You developed it. You came up with it. You went to the producer. You found Alice. So how satisfying was it to make it it's been the most challenging and the most joyful experience that I've I've had in my career I'm wondering what the sense of freedom and power feels like as a woman who in her landscape in her

field now has the ability to say, I want to do this. How does it feel? Well, sometimes you have an idea and you say it to a producer and they just look at you blankly. So you need someone else to like the idea. It's all about finding the right collaboration. So, yeah, I've had lots of ideas and people go, I don't think so. So it's not that I can do anything that I want. Luckily, this was an idea that um I met other people who agreed with me and then especially Alice who then you know took it and

used her extraordinary imagination to turn all the research that you and I've been talking about today but turn it into like an act of a kind of quite wild imagination sometimes. That was Rachel Weisz speaking to me last week, actually, she popped into the Woman's Hour studio and Dead Ringers begins tonight on Amazon Prime. 84844 is the number to text if you'd like to get in touch with us about anything you hear on the programme. If you fancy sending me an email, do go to our website. Now, earlier this morning, The Guardian revealed that another woman has alleged that she was raped by two male colleagues when she worked at the Confederation of British Industry. This is the second woman to allege she was the victim of rape at the

influential business group. It's been a busy few weeks for the CBI and for Anna Isaacs, city editor at The Guardian, who first revealed the allegations. Morning, Anna. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Let's go back to the beginning of this. What's emerged for those making allegations about the CBI? There'll be lots of people who won't know this story. So let's get to it. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, lots of people won't know what the CBI is. So it's the Confederation of British Industry. It's arguably the most prominent business lobbying group in the UK. It claims to have 190,000 members and to be the voice of business. A few weeks ago, I started reporting about allegations of misconduct, including sexual harassment and sexual assault. Since I've started reporting on this, more sources have come forward, either women describing what has happened to them or sources describing how complaints were handled at various stages. And the latest report from this morning describes two things, really. So the first is that a woman has told The Guardian that she believes she was raped by two male colleagues while working at an international office of the CBI. And the second is that sources familiar with HR processes at the

CBI claim that there was an allegation of someone being stalked by a male colleague in 2018. That complaint was upheld by the CBI, but that the woman was discouraged from going to the police with her complaint, which is something the CBI has said that it does not recognise, only that last point that she was discouraged from going to the police. But these are now, in addition to more than a dozen women

who have spoken to The Guardian about experiences in which they claim they were the subject of sexual harassment or sexual assault. What can you tell us about the woman who's come forward alleging that she was raped by two male colleagues? So she worked for one of the CBI's international offices. We're out of respect for her anonymity. We're not saying which office that was and we're not saying which year this was. But she's described coming round from being unconscious, having been out and having some drinks and various physical signs suggested to her that she had been raped and she came round and two of her male colleagues were in the room with her and she's sort of explained in her own words how she feels about it,

why she's talking about it and what she thinks should have been done and what wasn't done. And specifically she felt that she didn should have been done and what wasn't done. And specifically, she felt that she didn't have somewhere, she has nowhere to turn is a language that she's used to describe how she feels the CBI handled it, because she felt that there wasn't ready access to HR support for women working in international offices specifically. So that's one of the reasons that we reported her claim

because it describes an issue there. You know, where was the HR reporting line for her to speak to? How could she escalate her complaint? And how could she have the confidence that it would be handled correctly? I read the article and something that jumped out for me was the woman said that she hopes her colleagues can understand why she's come forward. And that really struck me because that really speaks about really what prevents women that she feels that she has to even say that, that she hopes her colleagues understand. Yeah. And while obviously it's not my place to speak for her, what I can is is how she's explained herself to me and and what

she's um said is that you know she thinks people at the CBI men and women do really great work um it's been a really really tough time for a lot of people working at the CBI with these allegations coming out bit by bit but that she feels it's important to understand why she felt um let down because only then can you try and create an environment where it is safer for women to to feel more confident in the workplace and to have lines to report out if something does go wrong she's very clear that she doesn't blame the cbi for what she alleges was a rape but that she felt she does blame them for the fact that there wasn't a good place for her to turn to.

Well, the CBI say they've begun what they refer to as a root and branch review of its culture. What does that actually mean? So their description of it is that they're going to look into their HR practices. They're waiting for a report from a law firm. They hired an independent law firm, Fox Williams, to investigate these set of allegations. Not the latest, although they may now include it within the scope of that investigation. But the idea is that through that investigation, they will work out where they might have had problems with their processes and try and address those essentially.

So that's my understanding of what they mean. On the Today programme this week the former CBI director Tom Danker said he's been made a fall guy for an organisation rocked by controversy. What was the response from the CBI? So Tony Danker, the former director general and Brian McBride took quite different positions. What they described was Tony Danker felt that he had been sort of thrown under the bus, that his words suggested that he felt he had been made a fool guy for what has happened at the CBI more broadly, referring to allegations that weren't about his conduct. Brian McBride said, also on the Today programme, that he felt that Mr. Dank had been selective

in how he characterised his dismissal. So it's fair to say that that sort of outlines a pretty uncomfortable situation for the UK's most prominent business lobby group, where you've got their president and their former director general

in sort of a war on words on the national broadcaster. And I think it reflects the challenges the institution faces right now. Now, your initial reports, well, we know that you've talked to the woman who's alleging rape and a stalking claim from 2018 and then dozens more women have been victims of various forms of sexual misconduct at the CBI. Can we expect more women to come forward?

I don't know is the honest answer to that. It's been a fairly extraordinary experience for me to have so much feedback. Sometimes you put out news reports and you don't hear from anyone. Sometimes you put out news reports and you get a lot, a lot of messages. Obviously, we've had to go, it's not just people getting in touch with me. There's a reporting process. I have to interrogate everything. But it's been extraordinary to have, I've spoken to more than 35 people, current and former, who've worked at the CBI. And so it's certainly been an extraordinary time to be reporting on it. Anna Isaacs, thank you very much for speaking to me this morning. Well, the CBI President Brian McBride said in a statement, these allegations put to us by the Guardian are abhorrent and our heart goes out to any women who have been victims of the behaviour

that is described. While the CBI is not previously aware of the most serious allegations, it's vital that they are thoroughly investigated now and we are liaising closely with the police to help ensure any perpetrators are brought to justice. 84844 is the number to text. Now, yesterday we discussed the impact of the rise in the cost of living and the disproportionate impact this is having on women often dealing with higher monthly costs on a lower average income. Many of you wrote in to talk about the challenges you're currently facing

some of you single parents so are you a single parent having to compromise in different ways to maintain your family what we want to know on the program is how you are managing let us know if you're happy to possibly speak to one of our producers and join us on the program we'll be discussing this next week. Leave us your phone number so we can call you back. Get in touch in the usual way, 84844, or go to our website and send us an email. And remember, leave your phone number,

then we can call you back. If you are a single parent and you're struggling with the cost of living at the moment, we'll be discussing it on next week's programme. So many of you getting in touch with your stories of body hair um lots and lots of experiences coming through i it used to be common practice in hospitals when a woman was in labor she would be shaven and given an enema but this practice quickly subsided as research has shown that with shaving and waxing it was found that there is a

decrease in maternal infection rates when the hair on the perineum is actually left in place. This is one of the reasons that many hospitals abandon the practice altogether. I imagine it also wouldn't be very comfortable to have hair regrowth when you perhaps have stitches and areas that are healing. Hannah's been in touch to say, I'm a white British woman of 45. I shave my underarms every day, my legs infrequently and do next to nothing to my pubic hair. The point I want to make is just how quickly society became hysterical about female pubic hair. I became sexually active in 1996 and my younger sister in 2000. And in those four years, she's completely absorbed the messaging that pubic hair was dirty and repulsive to men. I'm angered that what started off as a trend among porn stars

so rapidly became mainstream. I don't even like taking plasters off. The chance of me pouring hot wax onto the most sensitive areas of my body and ripping the hair out by the roots are less than nil. And CJ in West Sussex says, I'm 72 and feel liberated since my decision to allow my pubic hairs to do their thing. I spent much of my adult life keeping it neat, tidy or naked because I was encouraged to allow my pubic hairs to do their thing. I spent much of my adult life keeping it neat, tidy or naked because I was encouraged to by my partner.

Blissfully now accepted as I am, I do still shave my armpits. Thank you for that CJ. 84844 is the number to text. Now I'm very excited because I've been joined in the studio by my next guest. She's a change maker from our Woman's Hour Power List, which if you haven't heard of by now, where have you been? It's celebrating the 30 most powerful women in sport in the UK right now. My guest is Maggie Murphy, CEO of Lewis Football Club, the only club in the world to have equal pay budgets for women and men. The club is 100% fan ownedowned, and speaking about the club,

Maggie has said, the club differs because we're really guided in everything we do by our principles and our values. We are brave, ambitious, and very community-oriented. Maggie is also part of the leadership team at Equal Playing Field, a non-profit organisation set up to challenge gender barriers in sports, and I'm delighted to say she's sat in front of me. Maggie, good morning.

Welcome to Woman's Hour. And a huge congratulations for making our power list. Oh, thank you so much. It means a lot. As a listener to your programme, honestly, it was very humbling. And yeah, I'm still flabbergasted really that I'm here. Well, you absolutely deserve to be there. Let's talk about Lewis FC. Why is it such a unique place? Wow I don't really know where to start but let

me go back to the fact that the club nearly went into administration about 12 years on the back of the financial crisis and at that time six very special people local fans took the club into fan ownership so we're 100% fan owned. At first there were just six people and then it was 60 people and then 600 people. And today we've got 2,400 owners all around the world from Kazakhstan to Kuwait, you know, Mexico, the US, all over. And those people become fan owners because they believe in the principles and values.

Well, that's passion, isn't it? Yeah. And it's something really striking when those owners around the world really feel connected. It shows that we've built something really positive and principled, I guess, if they have never been to the dripping pan. What's the connection with people around the world connecting to? I can imagine, I can understand why the local community want to. But how are you tapping into people globally yeah and i i think a lot of this comes down to what happened in 2017 and that is when the club took the decision to split revenue equally between the men's side and the women's side and became the first club in the world there

is now another club in lesotho um that has equal budgets for their men's and women's teams you know following in our footsteps, which is wonderful to see the impact that you can have as well. But I think that that idea around equal pay, that transfers into equal treatment and equal value, that now, that resonated with people around the world. So those people felt like me. When I first heard that Lewis was doing this,

I wasn't connected to the club, but I became an owner. I clicked three times. I thought, finally, here's a club that will treat me with value and respect if I show up as a fan. If I want to buy something from the shop, if I was even a player, that I might be treated with that equal value and respect. And I think that's what people around the world resonate with. There's lots to love about football, but there's also lots that people don't like about football and I always say I don't judge anyone if they don't like football because there is so much to dislike about it and I guess we're just trying to prove that it's possible to create a football club that is for the whole of community not just half

of the community and it can be ethical and transparent and accountable and talk with fans and listen and try to change so I think that's what we're trying to create yeah and people buy into that yeah not alienating and tapping into as you said people's values yeah and they they want to join you um how did you end up working there because previously you'd had a very different career hadn't you working in international relations yeah that's right so actually my background is in anti-corruption and human rights and I always say that you know I never wanted to work in football I never would have imagined myself being the CEO of a football club and in fact growing up if I was just allowed to play football I would never be a CEO today. There were so many barriers and blockages that were put in front of my path and I'm coming from

a relatively privileged background you know playing football in the UK you wanted you played yes I played myself um you know and I played uh wherever I could but I spent a lot of time overseas as an adult you know I lived in Tanzania and Rwanda and Senegal you know anywhere I went I always found a team I think that sometimes we think the women's football is new it's only just popped up but it's been around for decades and it's just that it's never had the visibility. So for me, I was able to see the barriers that were being put in place in front of all women. It doesn't matter if you're an elite player or a grassroots player, whether you want to play for fun, whether you want to see how great you can be. There were just these constant barriers. And I

think I just got very frustrated um you know around the time that I stopped playing competitively and which was when I'm old so in my like early 30s yeah and it used to be played for a while yeah so and it was at that time that I thought I kind of took a moment to reflect and look back and thought why was it so difficult why did we get the terrible referees the really bad pitches the kit the hand-me-down kit that didn't fit the why did our football associations stop us from playing in tournaments or you know all kinds of things that would happen and I realized this is all about power and who has the power and how they use it and I think there was a combination of you know a FIFA corruption scandal me working

in anti-corruption me stopping playing that just made me think, hang on a sec, this is all about governance. You know a little bit about this. If not you, then who? Amazing. And so then you got the power. And then, yeah, I figured that, you know, I couldn't shy away from it anymore. I became pretty active and connected by chance with a brilliant woman called Laura Youngson. And is that significant that it was a woman?

Well, absolutely, because she is even far more braver than I am. She was the one that had this idea about climbing a mountain and trying to do something exceptional. Kilimanjaro, right? That's right. And we had all, I guess by this time I'd lived overseas, I had international connections. I met Laura and Erin and suddenly the three of us were kind of concocting this great idea to do something that people could not take away from us as being a B version of sport. You know how women's football and women's sport is often seen

as this kind of separate category that it's not quite also runs yeah and so setting a guinness world record at the top of mount kilimanjaro for the highest altitude football match ever played have never been done before has never been done since um for a reason probably i mean i've climbed that mountain how do you can't even breathe up there how did you manage it oh It was tough. It was really, really tough. I think that because we were climbing for something other than ourselves, it made it easier in some of those darker moments. But once we were at the top, I think, you know, that's when we laid out this full size football pitch. We had to have FIFA approved goals. We had to have FIFA officials. So all the officials were women as well, including a woman from Rwanda who then went out to the Qatar Men's World Cup just before Christmas as well

so everyone's had these incredible trajectories after setting this incredible Guinness World Record and yes the game was terrible barely breathe but it didn't matter but it was what you did and the significance of it did you feel powerful?

at the final whistle at the final whistle actually at the final whistle yes felt powerful because it was a nil-nil draw but if we were celebrating as though we'd won the world cup because we had done this remarkable thing that no one could take away from us and I think we thought that was the thing that was the remarkable thing but it was only the start and since then we've done we've all gone on to do incredible things um and really started to change the world of football. Yeah, make a change. So what have you achieved during your time at Lewis? Well, gosh, so I joined Lewis in 2019. And I think at the time the club had all these ideas and ambitions. You know, we had this focus on equality, but it probably needed

somebody to figure out how to make it work. And so over the last four years, I've been trying to figure out, okay, what do you need to put in place? Some of this stuff is really boring, like policies and processes and frameworks and how do you get things to function, you know. Important stuff though, someone has to do it. It is super important. But, you know, since that time, we've increased the sponsorship by 21 times. You know, we've managed to bring in big, big partners,

like Lyle and Scott, the fashion brand. And how have you done that? Because that's the thing that comes up time and time again. sponsorship by 21 times you know we've managed to bring in big big partners like lylan scott the fashion brand or and how have you done that because that's the thing that comes up time and time again the money is there the backing do you get how do you get the sponsorship you need the kind of finance yeah for the women's game well i think number one we have a personality so brands are looking for a club with a personality will will kind of gravitate towards us there has to be a trust and I think that it took us a few years to prove that we were being serious about equality it wasn't just a wear a t-shirt campaign it was something that was ingrained in it into everything we do but the other thing we really focus on is our match day

experience so because we play in our own ground we're not most women's teams rent another ground so they don't actually own the food outlets or the security staff so we can pour love into our home ground and i can't control what happens on the pitch but i can control to an extent the matchday experience so by focusing on having brilliant food having brilliant drinks i just need to make those people come back and i our attendances are great and And we've created this vibe, almost like a party vibe on games where people want to come because I have to diversify all the streams of funding that I can possibly bring into the club. But it's still fragile. And we can't keep up necessarily with the big clubs that decide overnight to allocate resources

or to just slide some zeros across the spreadsheet and that's probably one of the challenges we'll face. As soon as you said delicious food I was there. Now you've campaigned at Lewis for years about prize money in the women's game particularly in the FA Cup can you tell us why you feel it's so important to talk about the discrepancy between the prize money for men and women? Yeah so even up to just last year, the prize money, the total prize money pot for women's football was less than 1%

of the men's prize pot. And this is important, not just because I need the money to run a club and I feel like our team, should they progress through, the competition should be, you know, allocated winnings

that are reflective of that achievement, but also because of dependency and how it is that we can uh grow the the game if we're constantly dependent on men's football then we're not going to have the strong personalities or voices such as clubs like lewis fc and other independent clubs we have a couple of clubs in the championship that are independent women's clubs only. But we'll all fall away if we're completely dependent on men's football.

Now, with the FA Cup prize money, we played Manchester United in the FA Cup quarterfinal just a couple of weeks ago. If we'd won that game, we would have won £25,000. If we were men and we won that game, it would have been £450,000. And that's not even the biggest discrepancy. That £450,000 would mean all my financial concerns for next season are gone. But because we're women, I have to figure out other ways to scrap and fight. And I think that what I find unfortunate is that at the moment, the big clubs are not joining us in this fight because actually,

it doesn't really matter because they've got a lot of money coming in on the men's side anyway that allocate with some resources. And I'm saying, let us fight for these resources. So where do you find your resources to battle that fight, to continue with that fight? Well, through, because we have to be innovative, creative, make our own money. I can't rely on any handouts because, I mean, honestly, my job would be so much easier if all I had to do was go to the board and ask for some more money. But instead I have to think, how can I get people to part with their money to come into the club and to generate what I need? It means that we've got a voice and an independence

that allows us to talk about how to improve the game for women, by women, so that it's not just a shadow version of the Premier League that we're creating, but something unique and special. I can feel and see the passion from you. Everyone listening can hear it. And you are on the power list. You are a powerhouse and you have the power now. So what do you want to go on and achieve?

What's next? Well, I do. I want to make sure that the future of women's football, there's lots of conversations right now about what it should look like. I want to make sure that the future of women's football, there's lots of conversations right now about what it should look like. I want to make sure that it's unique and special. And that culture of the grit and the grind that women's football has gone through over decades when no one cared. I want to make sure that that shines through because we have created a unique community with incredible people um and so we need to preserve that independence and make sure that the decisions we make around how the game is going to be structured and funded preserve culture voice independence and doesn't just take a decision that in order to fulfill all of our ambitions we need to find ourselves a rich men's club to attach ourselves to i'm fist punching the air

i'm cheering i'm whooping all of the above. I want to say massive congratulations, Maggie, for being on the power list. More power to you. And thank you for coming in to speak to me this morning. It's been an honour. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. So many of you getting in touch about your hair issues. I'm a young 20 year old woman currently living as a student and I've had armpit hair for the last two years, pretty much since I came to university. I really enjoy having it and see it as a bit of an accessory for my body. I've never had any negative feedback from partners in

relationships. If anything, they found it really attractive. The only negativity I've had about it is actually from my mum, who is super supportive of me in every way except my body hair grooming practices. I think it's the generational difference but she just finds armpit hair a bit gross. My armpit hair is still going strong two years on and I don't think I'll ever get rid of it. Well armpit hair that's what we're talking about. What's yours like at the moment? Clean shaven? Little stubble or maybe a full bush? We're talking about it today because the actor Rachel McAdams was pictured in a photo shoot for a magazine with hairy armpits and has specifically asked for the photos not to be retouched.

But why so much shock over armpit hair when it comes to body hair? Is your choice of being hairy or hair free based on fashion or feminism? Well, Martha Alexander is a journalist at the Evening Standard. Who's written about this? Hello, Martha. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning, Anita. Morning. Lovely to have you with us. This isn't the first time that armp Morning. Lovely to have you with us.

This isn't the first time that armpit hairs on women have made the headlines. Julia Roberts upset a lot of people turning up on the red carpet, can you believe it, with visible hair under her arms. Remind us about that. So that was in 1999, and Julia Roberts was at the Notting Hill film premiere and she waved to the crowds and under her arms she had quite a lot of fluff. And the tabloids went absolutely wild

and there was just story after story. And of course, this was before we had social media. So the fact that I can still remember how big it was now without really the internet just goes to show what a kind of major event it was. And people sort of couldn't get their heads around the fact that this gorgeous Hollywood goddess could, you know, how could this happen? How could she sort of, you know, debase herself in this way? And it was so shocking and everybody was so appalled. And then it turned out, you know, 20ased herself in this way. And it was so shocking and everybody was so appalled. And then it turned out, you know, 20 years later, I think she admitted that actually it was just an

oversight and she hadn't really considered the structure of her dress. And it was nothing to do with it being a statement or anything. It was just sort of an accident, really. But attitudes seem to have not changed. Yeah. Fast forward to modern day Rachel McAdams hairy armpits and Twitter went berserk. Yes. I mean, it wasn't all bad. I mean, there was a lot of, you know, that's nasty and lots of the kind of puke face emojis.

There was a lot of that, but that was sort of baldly trolling. But the thing is, there was a lot of um comment about how how how it was a good thing and it was radical but do you think it's a generational thing we've just had a message in from this 20 year old saying that she's perfectly happy with her armpit hair but her mom is you know really liberal but that's the that's the line yes it's absolutely a generational thing uh as far as i can see and even not just sort of between even millennials, of which I'm a millennial. And Jen said there's a massive difference. I think growing up as a millennial teen and in my early 20s, it was just unthinkable that you wouldn't shave your armpits, shave your legs.

And this was also the time where the Hollywood wax, bikini wax, where everything comes off, was very, very popular. And that was kind of really the only way you could style yourself. But now, I think that Gen Z are a lot more relaxed about it. But I think millennials had a sense of it being to do with very, very harsh beauty standards that maybe are not the same for Gen Z now. And what's happening with Gen Z? Is it fashion? Is it feminism? What's going on? Well, you know, it's about choice, isn't it? So feminism is about choice, whether what you want to do and to what extreme you want to take it that's your choice but I do wonder if you know if you if you're growing out your armpit hair are you growing out all of your hair and maybe

the feminist choice I wonder or I would suggest might be to grow if you're going to grow something grow it just grow it all just let it let it go. And when you're actually picking and choosing, does that speak more to fashion than feminism? But that's a question rather than an assertion at this stage. And what about body hair on women generally? Do we know any stats around how it's viewed by the population more broadly? How do people feel? Where are we now as a nation? Interestingly, anecdotally, I'd say that Gen Z are quite liberal about it. Younger generations do not care nearly as much as older generations. But interestingly, in 2021, so only a couple of years ago, almost 60 percent of the British public said that they actually found body hair on women unattractive. So that's a lot, I would say. That's the majority, not the vast majority, but the majority. And that's actually, I think men and women both viewed that almost the same.

If you look at those stats, I can't remember exactly, but almost the same. Well, our Twitter has gone berserk around this subject. I'm going to read a couple more messages out. But how are your armpits doing today? Last question. Okay. I mean, I'm going'm gonna be i'm a millennial i'm gonna i'm gonna shave my armpits forever um but yeah i don't know i'm wearing a jumper so i'm all good doesn't matter you can tell me what whatever you want martha and i'm i'm generation x and mine was lasered years ago. Oh, really? Martha Ollison. A little bit of stubble.

Martha, so nice to speak to you. Thank you so much. Nice to speak to you, Anita. Thank you. Message in here. My amazing daughter, age 17, doesn't shave much to my husband's distaste. She and I still giggle at conversation her father and I had when he asked me

if I thought she'd perhaps not noticed it had grown. And John says, wish I had a choice with head hair, plenty in my ears and nose, just nothing on my head. On to my next guest. She's a big, she's got a massive, huge weekend ahead of her. It's the London Marathon on Sunday, and dusting off her trainers is the rather excellent Radio 1 presenter and DJ Adele Roberts.

Whilst most will just be hoping to finish the race in one piece, Adele has set herself an extra challenge to break a world record. She's attempting to complete the 26.2 miles in under four hours and become the fastest female to complete the race with a stoma. This is Adele's third marathon, but her first since she was diagnosed with bowel cancer. Adele has lived with a stoma for the past 18 months following surgery. She even has a name for it. More on that in a moment.

Adele, welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning, Anita. And can I just balance out the hair? There you go. I've got no hair at the moment, so I'm balancing out the hair chat. You're balancing it out completely. How are you feeling? How are you feeling ahead of it? Nervous? Really, really nervous. Yeah, the nerves are starting to kick in now. It's feeling like it's real,

but I'm also incredibly proud and just very emotional because 18 months ago, I couldn't envisage this day. Less than 18 months ago, I just, I was lying in a hospital bed recovering from bowel cancer surgery and it was a long road ahead of me 18 months ago I was lying in a hospital bed recovering from bowel cancer surgery. And it was a long road ahead of me 18 months ago. And I could barely sit up, let alone run a marathon. So to be here and to even attempt it this weekend just means the world to me.

Yeah. I'm looking at your beaming face and feeling so proud and excited for you. How's your health? How are you feeling? Yeah, I'm starting to feel my body's starting to come back thank you like anybody who's been treated for cancer will know that um once the treatment's ended that's kind of like when the hard work starts in a way that's when you realize what you've been through that's when it's mentally tough and it's strange because your body doesn't just snap back to how it used to be. And so it's still recovering from chemotherapy. I've still got damage to my blood. So I've still got low oxygen in my blood, which makes it hard to run. My feet and my hands are still affected by the chemotherapy, but I'm incredibly grateful

for the chemotherapy because I believe, you know, it helps save my life. And I feel like I've earned this body now, this new body that I've got with my stoma. I've earned it and I'm really proud of it. And I hope it can get round the 26.2 miles. Oh, you'll get round it. I have no doubt about that. And the stoma's name is? Audrey. Yeah, my little stoma. She's named after the plant in Little Shop of Horrors. So I don't know if you've ever seen that musical. Yes. But she's kind of similar to that plant she's very cheeky very greedy and does what she wants so that's why she got that name um now it is bowel cancer awareness month um and i know it's really important that you keep talking about it and

this is what you want to do now and get encourage people to get tested how did you get your diagnosis it was actually after a conversation with your dad wasn't it yeah it was um my dad got sent a fit test so because he's over the age where they get sent out by the nhs uh he got this test through and i think he was struggling a bit with going to the toilet and he started noticing bits of blood in his poo and my dad's the sort of guy is proper northern guy doesn't go to the doctors even if he's broken his leg he's like I'll be fine I'll walk it off uh so he's one of them and and um he he called me because he was worried and he said should I do the test and you know will you be there for me if it doesn't come back good so I was like yeah and that just always stuck with me because I couldn't believe he'd spoken to me about it and then it was a couple of years later that I started noticing blood in my poo as well.

And I ignored it at first. I just put it down to me not cooking my dinner properly. But, you know, I felt fit and healthy. So I didn't think it was anything serious. And you run and you... Yeah. Yeah. And it was just sort of like it started to be so consistent and started to be more and more each time that I thought, I don't think this is right.

It did take me a while to call as well because it was during COVID and I didn't want to burden the NHS. So my main message is, if you're worried at all, please speak to somebody. Because what the NHS would like to do is not only help you, but rule out cancer first and fast. Now, for me, it came back that it was positive. But luckily, because I went early, they were able to treat me. So the earlier you go, the more chance you have of surviving. Good, good advice. Your stoma, Audrey, you're going to be running for the first time. You want to break this world record. We're going to talk about that in a minute, but what is a stoma? Yeah, so a stoma is a little opening on the body. I've been given this because where they removed the tumor from my bowel, my bowel's been fused back together and is currently healing.

So this is my large colon. So in the meantime, they've got my small intestine, brought it to my stomach, and it's just poking out my stomach at the moment. And that's how I go to the toilet. So I've not been to the toilet the old-fashioned way for 18 months. I currently have like a little bag that catches any waste that comes out my body. And because mine's an ileostomy, it's similar to sort of like anything that will come out of your stomach. So it's kind of like a liquid really. And that's what goes in my bag and then I empty it day to day. And how has having it changed your life?

Oh yeah. Sort of like, it's like having children. Like I have to plan my life around my stoma because anything I eat or drink goes in the bag basically. Like I have to plan my life around my stoma because anything I eat or drink goes in the bag, basically. So I have to just sort of like make sure that if I've got something to do, I know when to eat, when to drink. And from time to time, the seal on the bag breaks as well. Also, Audrey, my stoma is a very naughty stoma. She likes to escape from the bag. So, yeah, it's sort of like every single day I have to think about my stoma. But I'm stoma she likes to escape from the bag so yeah it's sort of like every single day I have to think about my stoma but I'm incredibly lucky to have one how does she behave when you're running do you know she does yeah um on the longer runs though it's quite stressful for a stoma because it's essentially a hole in your stomach um towards the longer miles that's

when i can feel stressed and that's when i can start to feel that it's hurting a bit but um shorter runs she's fine um and and anybody who knows about running will know that when you start to run your digestion slows down so hopefully with that in mind i should be able to eat and drink while i'm on the course for the londonathon because this is another problem I can't eat or drink too much before it because it'll just my bag so I almost had to take my food out on the course with me and do it whilst I'm running so it's almost like the ultimate juggling act eating and running at the same time yeah sounds like a dream to me um yeah now Adele you could have just decided to run the London Marathon and that would have been amazing. Why have you set yourself this challenge to break the world record and be the fastest woman to run with a stoma?

Oh, thank you, Anita. I think it's just to sort of like when you're dealing with cancer, you get a lot of support, but you also get told a lot what you can't do. And I think it's important to sort of win the battle with cancer mentally to just stay positive and have a focus and I always thought what can I do you know what is possible and it's a unique situation that I find myself in where I love running um I've been through cancer it's a good chance during bowel cancer awareness month to raise awareness and spread the message that you need to get checked early but also imagine if this body that's been through so much can achieve a world record. Hopefully that helps all the roster mates go, do you know what? I'm not going to listen to what people tell me I can't do. I'm going to do what that girl did. And I hope that if I do break that record,

that somebody goes and smashes it again. I just hope it helps people. You're going to be helping so many people and you're going to be inspiring all of us. I, as music lovers, both of us, I need to know what's on your playlist. What's going to get you around? I've got all sorts. I've got musicals. I've got hip hop and R&B. I've got dance.

One of my favorites, it always gives me a boost, is Chaka Khan, I'm Every Woman. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And is it going to be on repeat or have you made one long enough? Oh, yeah, I've made a really long one just in case. Yeah, important. And, of course, the cheering of the crowds. Yeah. Yeah, this is it.

You know, I think that somebody said it a bit ago and it stuck with me. Cancer is a team sport and that's what the marathon is. It's a great celebration of life. It's the best in humanity altogether in in one area the crowd the runners it's a beautiful day um you're remarkable Adele you really are I want to know where you what resources you tap into to for this amazing spirit that's coming through the screen at me right now oh thanks Nisa I think in that moment when I heard I had cancer, because I didn't know too much about it,

I literally thought I was going to die. And the fact that they could help me and the fact that they have helped me makes me feel so lucky every day. And every day I wake up and make it a mission of mine to appreciate my life and just make the most of it. And it's changed me for the better. It's been such a pleasure speaking to you.

We're going to be cheering you on all the way best of luck uh adele honestly team woman's hour right behind you thank you so much for speaking to me uh chloe's 26 she's got in touch today the hardest thing i find with my body hair is how my partner has been conditioned to believe he finds it more attractive when i shave my body don't just do it for the men. Marianne says, I've never shaved any of my body hair. No one of the many women who have lost almost all of my pubic hair since menopause. I wouldn't say enjoy it while you have it, says Marianne. That's it from me. Join me for weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. What happens when a life coach takes over your life? For the last 18 months, I've been investigating claims that a UK mentoring company is actually a cult.

What we're doing is helping human beings actually gain control of themselves, not for us to gain control of you. I don't know who I am anymore, bro. Absolutely no idea. The only money he had to give them was his house. Controlling its members. It was more about apportioning blame to my parents. These toxic groups called families. Intimidating critics. When I'd ask questions.

They said, if you leave and you turn against us, we have all those personal recordings of yours. We'll come for you next. How do you feel, Paul, about the fact that so many people think you're running a cult? We're not running a cult because they don't know what a cult is. They're slewing us. They're smearing us. I'm Katrin Nye and from BBC Radio 4, this is A Very British Cult. Listen on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.