Woman's Hour - Radioactive chapatis, Hostage negotiation, Non-birth mothers, Japanese women in politics

Episode Date: September 4, 2023

In 1969, migration to the UK was increasing with Britain becoming home for thousands of foreign settlers. In Coventry, 21 women of Indian origin booked what were supposed to be routine appointments with their local GP. Little did they know that these appointments would result in them becoming subjects of a controversial medical experiment, in which they were given chapatis laced with radioactive components. Over the next 50 years, memories of the experiment have continued to resurface as campaigners, such as Labour MP Taiwo Owatemi, try to track down participants and their families whilst calling on Parliament to open an inquiry into the findings. Nicky Perfect knows what it’s like to live much of her life on high alert. From joining the police at the age of 18, working in the Met Police Firearms unit to eventually joining the elite New Scotland Yard Hostage and Crisis Negotiation Unit. She’s brought people safely down from rooftop stand-offs, worked to resolve gang kidnappings and terrorist incidents. Now she’s written about her experiences in Crisis: True stories of my life as a hostage negotiator.Listener Carla Mercer contacted Woman’s Hour asking for a discussion on parenting from the perspective of a non-birth mother in a single-sex relationship. She is the non-birth mother to her seven-year-old daughter and five-year-old twin boys. She is separated from her ex-partner who is the children’s birth mother. Author and journalist, Lotte Jeffs is the “other mother” to a four-year-old girl with her wife, who gave birth to their daughter. She is co-author of The Queer Parent: Everything You Need to Know From Gay to Ze. Political parties in Japan are boosting their support to get more women into office. The country’s ruling party and opposition party are both offering financial incentives- pledging a million Japanese Yen, about £5400, in aid for each new female candidate. And many would say the country sorely needs more women in politics- with the World Economic Forum showing only 10% of the country’s parliamentary positions are held by women. Rei Murakami is the President of the Murakami Foundation, and has set up a politics training school with this goal in mind. Hanako Montgomery is a Tokyo-based journalist. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty StarkeyOpener 00:00 Radioactive Chapatis 02:12 Nicky Perfect 12:16 Women on Wheels 30:20 Non-Birth Mothers 35:44 Japanese Women in Politics 46:45

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. How are your negotiating skills this morning? Maybe you've already had to negotiate who got to use the bathroom first for that morning shower. Or maybe you were getting tired toddlers to eat what you made for breakfast. Maybe later today you have to negotiate with your boss about your workload. Well, there have been many awkward situations, I'm sure, throughout your life that you've had to negotiate your way in or out of.

And we have a woman today, hostage negotiator, Nicky Perfect, who will be joining me in studio to talk about her work. She has spent much of her life in highly fraught and dangerous situations, negotiating, among other things, gang kidnappings and terrorist incidents. But on an everyday level, I want to hear from you about your best negotiating skills. Let us in. Give us your tips. You can text the programme 84844 on social media we're at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website for WhatsApp message

or voice note that number is 03 700 100 444 and your stories maybe when you surprised yourself of how well you negotiated it's a good feeling right also today

one of our listeners Carla asked us to discuss parenting from the perspective of a non-birth mother in a single sex family. So she's mum to a seven year old daughter and five year old twin boys with her ex-partner at their birth mother. And she'll be joining me in the studio with author and journalist Lottie Jeffs.

Lottie is the other mother to a five year old girl with her wife, Jenny. And we'll turn to Japan. Only 10% of their parliamentary positions are held by women. Political parties there are boosting their support to try and get more women into political office. So we're going to look at why both the

country's ruling party and the opposition party are offering financial incentives. So pledging a million Japanese yen, that's over, just over 5,000 pounds, in aid of each new female candidate. I wonder, will that work? We'll get to talk about all of that. But first, I want to turn back really to 1969. British immigration is at its peak and immigrants from across the world now call the UK Home. In Coventry, 21 women of Indian origin have booked a routine appointment with their local GP

to help with minor health concerns that they have. However, these appointments would turn into anything but routine, as the women found themselves subjects of a controversial medical experiment where they were told to consume radioactive chapatis. Now, over the next 50 years, the events of 1969 have re-emerged as campaigners attempt to identify the women and their families that were involved. And they're calling on Parliament to open an inquiry. Labour MP for Coventry North West, Taiwo Oatemi, is at

the forefront asking for an investigation. And Shanaz Akhtar is a postdoctoral researcher at Warwick University. And Shanaz toldhtar is a postdoctoral researcher at Warwick University. And Shanaz told me how she first came across this story. So I was, as part of my research, was looking at local histories of South Asian women in Coventry and came across this story. It was part of research on intergenerational experiences of South Asian women. And people began to talk about this idea of radioactive chapatis being delivered,

I went and did some online research and found the original source material. So there was a documentary by John Brownlow, which was available at the British Film Institute and there was an India Today article so I then went ahead and did a systematic review and to see whether I could see whether there was an experiment and also the circumstances in which it had taken place and during my research questions began to arise over whether the women actually knew that they were part of an experiment and this issue of informed consent. And what did you learn? How do you understand the details of what happened? that the Medical Research Council authorized a research experiment which used radioisotopes to trace iron and added radioactive salts to the patties to try and combat anemia in order to recreate a third world diet and I'm quoting from the MRC report using word of word there. They then worked with a local GP in Coventry to identify 21 women and chapattis were then delivered to these women over a fortnightly period.

Then they were then taken to Hartwell to then have their iron levels and their anemia measured. That's stuff which then emerged over whether they knew what they were signing up to. So within the newspaper reports, the ladies that have come forward publicly did say that actually, no, they thought that they were talking about arthritis. They thought they were talking about migraines. And instead, they found that they were in the study, which was there to combat anemia. I understand.

So let me turn over to you, Taiwo. You met Sharnaz and heard about her work. And what are you trying to do at this point? It's just get a statutory inquiry, a full statutory inquiry, to understand exactly what happened, to ensure that, you know, we're able to get more witnesses to come forward to answer some questions that are yet to be

answered, and to give the families a voice so that we understand what the impact of this, if there was any impact, and we identify the 21 women. It is still wrong that to today, many of these women didn't even know they were part of today, many of these women didn't even know they were part of the study, or their families didn't even know they were part of a study. And there hasn't been that proactive effort to identify them and to ensure that they're well informed. What age would the women be now, do we think? Some of the women have passed away, but we'll expect them to be about in their 80s, 90s. Yeah. And how many, have many women been identified at all?

A handful. Less than, from what I know it's actually less than five, but just to be conservative, less than ten. What are you trying to get to the bottom of? The health effects of being given radioactive Chibatis within this experiment?

We need a follow-up study to understand if there were any health effects and to understand actually if the woman followed the protocol it is not unusual within a family setting for bread to be shared yeah yeah and if you don't know what's going on especially some of the emails that you know that have been privy to there are some women coming forward saying oh yeah my mom used to share those chapatis with us as children children shouldn't have had access to that and it's just really understanding did this did this woman you know give full consent which we know they didn't did they understand that they couldn't share with their family did it have an impact on any of their loved ones um but also actually to

ask the bigger question which is was this a precursor to a bigger inquiry or did it end in Coventry with 21 women? Because when you read some of the background information, it does suggest that they could have considered expanding this particular study, given the real aims of the study, which was to understand it in a diet of a South Asian population. And do we know, Shanaz,

have there been any health effects on any of those? I know it's just a handful that we know about, but has that been considered? So this is one of the things that emerged after the documentary was aired. And in a letter to the British Medical Journal, a professor wrote in to say that actually there was no morbidity study

done, meaning that no one actually did a follow-up study on these women to check whether there was a health effect on them. And so whilst the science can come out and say, well, actually, this is a small dose, we can't say that for certain because no one actually ever followed up on those women and no one actually saw um knows whether it was detrimental to their health whether their other health care needs were ignored as a result of it but there was a report i will meant uh there was a report published in 1998 i mean do you do you think you'll be able to get further this time? So the report just looked around the issue of consent and whether or not it was ethically conducted.

And it came to the conclusion that actually if it was carried out in a 21st century environment, you know, the procedures wouldn't have been acceptable. And we all know consent wasn't given because these women had limited language. But actually the MRC weren't proactive enough in identifying these women. Till today, the Medical Research Council

weren't proactive enough in identifying these women, even till today they haven't apologised. And the criteria then, when the experiment was conducted, was that these women had to be true volunteers and so that meant even when they gave it their approval it didn't actually meet the requirements of the experiment which was being conducted and that's the reason why I think it's important that MRC works with the local authority to do a follow-up study and just to understand what actually happened. So by speaking speaking generally for communities in Coventry they want answers and they deserve to

have answers and I know that you know some of the families have moved off to other areas in the West Midlands um and these families need closure and especially for some of the young interpreters who may have been involved in explaining it to their parents you know we had someone get in touch which said I first of all I didn't realize that's what I was doing and secondly I can't believe now that you know I could have been responsible for something you know which may have happened to my loved one and and that is a guilt and then we should have to carry again these are simple simple questions that I think the MRC can answer in conjunction with Professor Elwood if they're willing to have such discussions. And so those children might be in their 40s or 50s now, I'm thinking perhaps. What are they supposed to do if they have potential questions or might think that their mother might have been part of the original 21?

Well, right now, we're encouraging people to get in touch so that we can identify the 21 people. But what I would like to see actually is just full transparency. If the MRC and Professor Earlwood were willing to work with the community and answer these questions, this whole story wouldn't have dragged on for decades. It would have been open in the 90s and closed in the 90s. And the main question is, why is it taking so long to get simple answers

to questions that should have been documented and it should have been easily accessible? I understand. Shanaz, and for you, how do you feel about it at this moment? Do you feel that there will be some sort of closure? I hope so.

And I think, I hope what this will do is it will censor the women's voices in all of this and give them the agency that they perhaps didn't have the 1960s and their families. At the heart of this is 21 women and now the families of 21 women who are experiencing trauma, who are experiencing concern, who may not have known about it until it's been in the media. And we've seen an article on the BBC where one of the participants' families has said she wasn't aware and it's caused distress. So what I hope is that it will give them some closure. But what I also hope is that it will allow the women's voices to be centred in a way

that the original inquiry didn't. That's Shanna's actor and we also had the MP for Coventry North West Taiwo Oatemi. Thanks so much to both of them for telling us more about that story. Now my next guest Nikki Perfect has spent most of her life in highly fraught and dangerous situations, working with the elite New Scotland Yard crisis negotiation unit. She's brought people safely down from

rooftop standoffs, negotiated in gang kidnappings and also terror incidents and experienced the devastating moments when things don't go according to plan. She's now written

about her experiences in her new book, Crisis, True Stories of My Life as a hostage negotiator. And she's with me now in the studio. go according to plan. She's now written about her experiences in her new book, Crisis, True Stories of My Life as a Hostage Negotiator. And she's with me now in the studio. And just before we start our conversation, I should add that some of the stories Nikki will be talking about refer to suicide and also terrorist executions. You're welcome, Nikki. Thank you very much.

Lovely to have you this morning. Wow. I mean, how do you define the job of a hostage and crisis negotiator? Can you? Yeah, it's a difficult one. For me, it was the best job in the world, if I'm honest with you. I'd been a police officer for 20 years when I became a negotiator. So I'd had quite lots of experience in policing and in a variety of roles. Then when I became a negotiator and I found out all of the things I'd be able to do, especially when I joined the full time unit, it was absolutely incredible and a privileged experience. So what was it that attracted you? I mean, I think for us, when we think of hostage negotiator, you know, we have these scenes from TV or movies, things like that. Dog Day Afternoon is coming into my head.

So I'd worked with negotiators before at the time. So if I just explain a little bit about how negotiation works, especially in the UK. So the majority of police officers who are negotiators, they do it on top of their day job. So they volunteer to do it. They do their own day job, then they put themselves on call 24 seven. I know that they're an incredible bunch of people, I have to have to tell you. And I was working in firearms at the time. I was an inspector and I had a mentor who was a couple of ranks above me who came and spoke to me. She said, have you ever thought about becoming a negotiator? And I was like, oh, I thought you had to be a chief inspector, which was a rank above me

at the time. And she said, no, you can be an inspector now and I said okay I've worked with negotiators before especially in firearms I'd worked with negotiators when I was working in South London for a variety of reasons so I knew how they worked I found out a bit more about it certainly my mentor had this way of when you left the conversation with her she made you feel like the most important person in the room and I was like, I don't know how you're doing that. But that's an amazing skill to have. Found out more about it and then went on a two week incredibly intensive course, probably the hardest one I've done. I thought I was quite a good communicator, to be honest with you. I'd had lots of experience in speaking with people.

And then they took everything I believed to be true about communication, kind of turned it on its head, held me under the spotlight for 24 hours a day. Give me, give me. OK, let us inside that room. Give me one of the exercises they made you do, if anything comes to mind or something that was difficult in those two weeks. So all of the scenarios are based on true life scenarios. And you're dealing with people in crisis in a variety of different ways. And as a police officer, you generally tell people what to do. And as a person, we generally problem solve.

We like to problem solve. So even if our friend comes up to us and they've had a terrible relationship split up, we like to problem solve that, don't we? And we like to say things like, oh, there's plenty more fish in the sea or... It'll be fine. It'll be fine or...

They don't deserve you. Exactly, all of those words. And sometimes, actually, all the other person wants is just to be acknowledged about how they're feeling. So rather than problem solving, we could just use reflective language and help them and say, gosh, I can only imagine what you're going through at the moment. This must be incredibly challenging for you,

or words to that effect. And then that just allows us to build relationships with people on an emotional level. Let me get into some of the specifics of the book. It opens on Christmas Day when you're called to the home of a man in his late 20s. His family had left him the day before. He was drunk. He was threatening to take his own life.

What you said you saw was desperation, not aggression. How can you tell that difference? And I think a lot of people will have come up against in some situation something that is maybe being perceived as aggression but could be desperation. Yeah, so experience, I would say. I've also learned, though, that what I'm seeing is not necessarily what is true. So my perception at that time was he was desperate rather than aggressive. It turned out that that was correct. But there's also part of your brain that still goes,

this is what you're thinking. Just be aware, though, that might change in a matter of seconds. In an instance like that, I mean, what language do you use? So what I do is I try and find out more about them because we all have a story. And on that Christmas day, he had a terribly sad story. You know, his wife had gone and taken the children and he was left on Christmas day, which is supposed to be a family day,

surrounded by loved ones, and he was on his own. And in the book, I compare that to the day that I was having with my own family. So it's about looking at the world from his perspective rather than my own perspective and seeing how I can help him and see what's really going on for him. Is it, this is woman's hour, is it any different being a female negotiator? It's interesting because I was having this conversation yesterday about do women make better negotiators than men or do men make better negotiators than women? And I think that it's all about the individual and the person because some men are great negotiators and some are not so great. And some women are great negotiators and some are not so great.

So it really is about the individual person. But does it take, because you're talking about all this training, which I'm fascinated with. I want to go on that course um but did you were you always a good negotiator in the sense of even within the police department were there just certain people who were going to be plucked out to do it or do you think these are skills that could be learned by anyone I think that some people have a more natural tendency to listen and be empathetic. But you can definitely teach people. I'm fascinated with listening, obviously, with the job I'm in. But the course that you did, you say it made you realise that you didn't really listen and that there are four kinds of listening skills.

What one does a negotiator need the most and what are the other ones as well and i wish i'd know i was in my early 40s when i learned about listening i wish i'd learned it at school to be honest so the four main modes of listening that there are this and this is like a broad spectrum sure sure so the first one is competitive listening which is it's where you listen from your own perspective and wait for your own turn in the conversation we've all been around at a pub table or something like that. Oh, yeah. Okay.

And that's generally like, you know, hey, how are you today? Oh, I'm okay, but I've got a bit of a cold. And then that becomes a, oh, yeah, there's loads of that going around, isn't there? And, oh, yeah, the kids got sent home from school. So it's that general sort of rapport conversation. But you're just waiting for your turn in the conversation.

The second is combative listening. Okay. And this is where you listen to be right because we do like to be right because we like to have our opinion validated because it helps us to feel valued and have a place in the world and all of this is okay it's just about understanding that this is what we do so yes combative listening if you want a great example of that then tune into prime minister's question time i always say okay because i always feel that's combative listening at its best no one's really listening to anybody else and they're just cutting over each other then we have passive listening which is where you're doing something else at the same time or you've got your own internal dialogue going on i think most of us

can relate to this yeah definitely and we end up going uh-huh oh yeah okay and we're not really listening we're watching our favorite program on tv or we're reading a book or an email or typing an email. So we're only kind of half there. And then the last one is active listening, which is, as a negotiator, the one that you really want to be doing, be in the space with the person, putting all your judgements to one side,

getting rid of all the internal dialogue and just being fully present and fully conscious with the other person. And that's an incredibly difficult thing to do it's really hard and challenging so interesting um your first real life crisis was being called to a hostage taking where a father had taken hostage his baby daughter and was using her as a shield in the end the man was tasered by the police attending the scene with you um why did you think that you had failed as a negotiator at that point so for me it was i don't know about you but when i get a new skill i can't wait to use it and i'd had my i'd had like an epiphany moment on my negotiation course and i was like well this is amazing these skills

are incredible they can make a real difference. Like a superpower. Yeah, like a superpower. And so when I went on that negotiation, I walked away and he'd been tasered. In my head, before I'd gone to the negotiation, this is literally what was running through my head. I was like, heroin negotiator arrives on scene, talks to the man. He listens to her. She listens to him. Hands her the child, shakes her by the hand and everything's fine. But of course, in reality...

It's messy. It's messy. He didn't speak to me for eight hours. He said two things to me. One was, you don't understand. And the first one, I can't repeat on radio. Okay. Yeah. But that really helped me become a better negotiator, I think,

and to learn because I suddenly realised, actually, I was viewing that whole conversation and that whole negotiation from my perspective. And all that internal dialogue which you've just expressed. It was all about me. So you kind of had to clear it all away. Let's talk about another one that you write about. This is helping

to get a suicidal 16 year old girl down safely from a tree. What happened there and what worked in that situation? I imagine you were probably learning from the previous ones. Constantly learning, still learning, I have to tell you now. I'd love to sit here and tell you I've nailed it, but ask my 16-year-old and he'll tell you I haven't.

So that was an interesting one because, again, I was very new to negotiation and thankfully I was I have worked with some brilliant experienced negotiators and learned lots from them and I was I was trying to get her to listen to me but again it was all about me telling her what to do you know and I just wasn't getting anywhere and I worked with this amazing man and he he came along and he he literally just looked at her and he said you're probably looking at me and thinking what what on earth is a middle aged man with a big beard going to have in common with you, a 16 year old girl up a tree? And I could see her looking at him. And then he said, because my 16 year old son says that to me all the time.

And I thought, wow, that's just amazing. and having that bond because negotiation is about human connection and bonds and relationships and having honest conversations with people. And, you know, what do you do when it doesn't work out? Yeah, it's hard. But is there a particular way to process this? Do you go with your colleagues? You know, how do you do that? So in the world of negotiation, there is a lot of team support. People are really, really good. The leaders of negotiation are very aware around the impact that it has on your life. And there is support through occupational health,

support through talking to colleagues because they have a good understanding of it. But honestly, I'm probably like most police officers and probably most people that work in emergency services. You see and hear things that other people don't see and hear. It becomes your normal. You have crisis after crisis build up and trauma after trauma build up. And you kind of find your

own individual way of boxing that because i'm thinking you have these personal stories very much of these people that i feel like i'm seeing now the way you've described them but then you also have like these larger um crisis negotiations for example islamic state group if we move to that um you were asked to study the actions of one of the notorious terrorists within that group known as Jihadi John I think my listeners will remember by watching one of the beheading videos because you needed to understand um his process uh what can you learn from from something like that I, is it then to try and stop something like that in the future? I mean, it's an awful thing to have to put yourself through. So, yeah, and that was my

choice, rightly or wrongly. I can't answer whether that was the right or the wrong thing to do. But it was my choice because I was the director of UK hostage and crisis negotiation training at that time. And there was a real fear that we were going to have an incident in the UK something possibly similar or we might end up in a negotiation with somebody who was very radicalized and we were looking at ways of okay so how do how do people become radicalized what is their thought process and what is their belief process so by getting as much information as possible as a teacher to be able to then teach the students unless you've been in that situation and every situation is different anyway so that's one of the that's the reason i was just trying to find out more and as a unit we were trying to find out more yeah and i mean

i think with those ones because they stop us in our tracks because there doesn't seem to be any human aspect to it. Yeah, I think you're right, because there's the lack of empathy, the lack of any care towards another human being, which I think for the majority of human beings is a really difficult thing to process and to fully appreciate. So are there certain people, I'm thinking of Jihadi John, for example, or others like that, that are just impossible to negotiate with? So in the world of negotiation, you always find a way and do what you have to do. And if that means standing and talking to somebody, a psychopath, then you'll do it.

But negotiation is just one tactic, obviously, in policing. So there are many other tactics going on behind the scenes. Right. So if that one doesn't work, then there's another tool in the toolbox, so to speak. All the way through the book, there's an underlying thread of what you call the missing piece in the puzzle, the realisation that you're gay. So talk me through that realisation then. Yeah. So the book follows my journey in life and about my own personal development and as i then became a negotiator and i refer to myself as a piece of the jigsaw that never quite fitted you know the piece that you try and push down yeah yeah the sky and you think

that really should go there why why is it not fitting and i felt like that quite a few times in the world of negotiation i never felt like that So it's just about how those belief systems that my belief system about being gay in policing and about being gay in life impacted and affected my relationships with my parents, with my friends and with my family. Not because of them, but all because of the belief system that I was running in my own mind. And I think that, you know, when you have such a strong belief, it can get in the way sometimes. So you've had to learn how to... It's so interesting because you have to have belief in yourself, obviously, as a negotiator and pure confidence and all that sort of thing. But you have to strip that all away to actually do the job.

Yeah, because it's not about... Excuse me, because it's not about you. It can never be about you. It's always about the other person. You retired in 2018 and you did start a consultancy in communication and negotiation. During one of the sessions, you were shocked at your own reaction

when some of the trainees wore orange jumpsuits. Tell us a little bit more about that incident. Yeah, so this is what I love about communication is chance conversations provide opportunity. So I was having my car serviced and I was talking to the lady in the garage who owned the garage. And after that conversation, I ended up buying the garage, which is quite random in itself, and converting the car showroom. That was some negotiation. I know, I don't know how that happened.

And converting the car showroom into a coffee shop and into a gym, which is now a community hub and keeping the garage workshop. And the idea of that was to provide a space for people to come because one of my highest values I've learned in life is to be in service. There's nothing I can do about it. It just makes me tick. I'm a qualified personal trainer now and I was actually running a class and I asked the students in the class to perform an exercise where they had to drop to their knees and as they dropped to their knees

they the flash before me they all became people involved in the ISIS incident wearing orange jumpsuits and I really wasn't expecting it nothing had ever happened like that before I'd only been like six months in retirement so it was a real shock to me how my brain had done that to me. Yeah so there are parts of it there and I was wondering like how is it afterwards it sounds beautiful the consultancy business and the garage and the gym and giving back and all that but with this backstory I'm just thinking of people that are coming to the gym or whatever and not realizing who you are really or what you've gone through. I mean, it's quite quite something.

Yeah. And it's interesting because we all have a story from negotiation. I learned three really powerful things. One is that we all have a story. Number two is that we all have a crisis in our life. And that number three is loneliness is one of the biggest killers in the UK, probably the world. And not necessarily being on your own, but being lonely, even if you're surrounded by people. And yeah, now I've put my book out

and my story is out there. Some people that know me through my businesses are reading it and going, goodness me, I had no idea. And I'm like, I know I've had an, it's been such a privilege to have had those experiences. It really has.

It's been so wonderful having to have had those experiences. It really has. It's been so wonderful having you in, Nicky Perfect. And she has her new book out called Crisis, True Stories of My Life as a Hostage Negotiator. Absolutely fascinating. And if you have been affected by anything you've heard in this interview, just search for the BBC Action Line website where there are lots of resources. Thanks so much.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Thank you. Now I want to turn to women on wheels, women on the cars and motorbikes that have meant a lot to them. Today, Gail from Ayrshire passed her motorcycle test a year ago in her mid-50s. Inspiration there.

And she's been speaking to Anita, who began by asking her about her bike. I've actually got two motorbikes. I've got an old one I restored when I was like 18 with my boyfriend at the time Derek and when my daughter left home I thought what am I going to do myself so I thought I'll get the old motorbike back on the road although I had never driven it I did pass my basic training but I had never taken it any further and then I went away to study so the bike lay in a garage so I looked to see who I could train with and I googled and I got the name of a guy and I realized it was a guy that trained me 25 years ago and I couldn't remember his name and I said oh did you have a BMW bike and he was like yeah and he said oh he said

if you get dark hair you're quite small and I was like well not now but he remembered me so I did my basic training and they said to me do you want to carry on and do you want to be able to drive bigger bikes so I said yeah I was quite excited about that I had to sit a theory test as well which I'd never done because I'd passed my test so long ago my my driving test. It's all different now. So how many years between you initially getting that old bike and then your daughter leaving home and you going back to have lessons? How many years had passed? It's probably 31 years.

31 years later, you decided to get back on your bike. I was initially really scared when I did my day's training. It was okay in the yard. Then you go out on the road and that's when it really hit me. I'm on a bike on the road. All right, what was it like getting back on the bike? Explain the feeling. You have all these emotions.

You're excited and you have fear and you're watching all around about you. The feeling is tremendous. And when I passed, I was like in cloud nine really I must have felt like probably like Olympic people who win medals really amazing I purchased up an mto7 which is 700cc go on explain to people I have no idea is that quite powerful my car is 1400 and that's the big 700 what Do you get looks from other drivers? Other bikers they nod to each other there's a community. Did you have to have the bike adapted? I did I did I'm only five foot two so I got my bike lowered I didn't even know you could get a lowered bike but so I can

just get my feet on the ground I don't the photograph I sent you you can just see my feet are just touching. You've got back on a motorbike after 30 odd years your daughter's left home you found this new lease of life what has it done for your life what's it done for your social life? 31 years ago I had joined the classic bike club and but I always went pillion I always sat in the back with someone but when I rejoined and now I go out runs with the guys and it's just brilliant we go out most Sundays they look after me they put me in the middle they watch the speed that I wanted to go at and I really feel having been with them for a year now that I've come on that my driving's got better and we we go long runs. Sometimes it was like 220 miles,

which you are quite sore after that in your limbs and your arms. My social life has really soared. We did a bike show as well in June and I've ended up the only woman on the committee of the bike club. So that's quite funny as well. I love it.

I'm so pleased for you, Gail. I feel like I'm living it through you. What does your daughter make of it all? When I was going for the lesson, I started to get worried and nervous. And I said to Hannah, oh, I'm a bit worried about this. And she said, mum, I'm worried for you. And she said, I feel like the mother of an adolescent. And I said, well, welcome to my world. And also she said she wanted to go like the mother of an adolescent and I said well welcome to my world

and also she said she wanted to go on the back with me but when she saw the bike she said no I'll not bother I'll not but I'll pass on that oh she's scared but mum's brave I love it when the tables turn as well and you start getting worried about your parents um any plans for a big trip well I'm looking to go down to London this summer. My sister lives down just north of London. She's got an art exhibition on, so I'm hopeful to go down, but I need to modify the bike that I can put bags on it. So a couple of mates have said they would help me get the bags on,

and I'm thinking to do a stop in Lincoln, where I used to study. So I'm looking forward to that. Just you, one woman on the open road with 700 cc's between her legs. Sounds good to me. Have an amazing trip. It's been a delight speaking to you. I think you might have inspired a few women.

I hope so. I would encourage anyone to try it if you have an inclination for it. You might not like it, but you might like it and just take it further like what i did and off they go women on wheels we'll have more of those stories as well and that will be coming up throughout the series now our next item was suggested by one of our listeners carla who's in the studio with me right now. Welcome, Carla.

Thank you. Carla wanted an item on parenting from the perspective of a non-birth mother in a single sex family. She's mum to a seven year old daughter and five year old twins with her ex-partner, their birth mother. Also in the studio is author and journalist Lottie Jess. Lottie is the other mother to a five year old girl and her wife with her wife, Jenny. And she's the co-author of The Queer Parent, Everything You Know from Gay to Z. I like that. So, Carla, why did you suggest this to Women's Hour and thank you for doing so? Well, I just thought that we should have more discussion around the topic and that perhaps it would be useful to listeners who perhaps are grandparents to queer families or to women who were in a similar situation to me.

And yes, just to bring more discussion to the topic is always useful, I think. And your story, Lottie, how did you become interested in talking about it? What was it you felt there was a need? I'm a journalist who's written about my life since I first became a journalist. And so I suppose when I became a parent, it just felt natural for that to be my next sort of area of interest. And I do feel that as a queer parent and particularly as the mother that didn't carry the child, it is a really interesting perspective. And I think it's really helpful for other people to learn more about it I use that term other mother

do you use that term I do yes yeah I actually did but then I've slightly changed my mind about it recently because I feel like it's it's sort of um putting the otherness too centrally and for me now as my child's got older, certainly, and there's less sort of physical caregiving, such as breastfeeding, I feel like there's so much more equality in terms of my wife and I's role as mothers that being the other sort of diminishes it slightly.

So what are you using instead? Just say mum, mother, like we're both her mums. So I'm mama and my wife's mummy. Yeah, it's the same in our house too. Yeah, which are you? I'm mama and my wife's mummy. Yeah. Okay. It's the same in our house too. Yeah. Which are you? I'm mama as well. Yeah, you're mama.

I saw a listener was getting in touch. Dear Woman's Hour, I'm the non-birth mum of two great children. My partner and I at the time decided that my equally important role, I would be known as Amma. Okay. Other mother or mother of the house.

And now my children's friends call me Amma as it's become my name to them. And that's Pat, better known as Amma. Thanks, Pat, for getting in touch. 84844 if you want to share your experience. Well, let me turn back to you, Lottie, then. I mean, you talk there about some of the physical aspects not being so central anymore. How would you describe the day-to-day experience

of being the second mother I mean I would say it's exactly like it is for any other parent you know so much of your day especially with the five-year-old is taken up with just getting through the day I mean I was listening to the amazing negotiating women and just thinking so much of my day-to-day is like negotiating with a small person you know you're in it you're doing the parenting you're not sitting there thinking oh I am a queer parent this is me being the other mother taking care of my child you're just doing it and so I feel like it's only really in conversations like this where I become aware of my specifics as the non-gestational parent. So I would say to anyone listening, like two mums, a mum and a dad, one mum, when you're just doing it, it's so democratising.

You're just doing the same thing. Carla? Yes, I agree. It's, you know, it's just about the children's needs, really. And you certainly aren't defining yourself as mama, mummy, other mother. It's just, you know, get the school bags, get the lunches. Because I'm thinking of heterosexual couples, and we often talk about, you know, the role of a father and the role of a mother and whether they're interchangeable or, you know, who is the primary

caregiver, things like that. And I mean, obviously, I'm talking more from a traditional perspective with some of those as well. But do you find either of you, maybe I'll turn to you first, Lottie, that there are, I don't know, certain roles or responsibilities that is where we can all learn so much from queer parenting, because it's an opportunity to completely explode the idea of a nuclear family. And what is a father's job? What is a mother's job? When you work from a place of equality, where it's like, okay, who's good at what? Who makes the best dinners? You make the dinners. Who is better with emotional stuff? You do that. When you kind of base your parenting roles on aptitudes rather than some sort of old-fashioned idea of who should be doing what, you create such a healthier and happier and more equal family dynamic. And so I think for me, my wife and I just literally do the thing

that we're better at than the other, or we do the thing that needs to be done at the time when the other one's not around. There's absolutely no sense of the gendering of those tasks yeah i agree yeah and carla what about um because we've mentioned them briefly their grandparents how did your parents react when you said you were going to have a child um and also not be the gestational mother? I think it was almost like another form of coming out. Really? Talk us through that a little bit. Well, I think initially my parents struggled accepting my sexuality. And, you know, we went on a journey with that and got to a very

good place. And I felt like it was the same situation again when I told them that we were going to have children with IVF. And for them as well, it's, you know, it's a very traditional outlook. And it's interesting, though, isn't it? Because, because, for example, having children is kind of the traditional way to have a family some could say right and that the majority of couples at this point anyway do have kids yeah um in terms of explaining it to them i i put it to them in in a way that i thought they could understand that it would be like an an adoptive parent who would still be parenting the children just so they could have some sort of avenue into accepting it and that

seemed to to start the conversation and I don't have your parents here but is it okay to ask did they accept yes yes they did but you live apart from your children some of the time at the moment. I mentioned it's your ex-wife as well. Yes, they're currently in Australia. Okay, that must be hard though. Yes, it's a challenge. Yeah. But I think it's, for everyone, I think it's the best situation.

For my mental health, I needed to come back to London. Yeah, I understand that. But turning back to you Lottie I mean what would your advice be because Carla's giving us a real up close and personal what she went through there both in the family and with the grandparents as well I mean is there a manual? Thank you so much for queuing up for the book blog. Yes there is a manual and it's called The Queer Parent Everything You need to know from gay to z we uh it's an a to z and we cover all of the things that um we've spoken about here including

sort of talking to grandparents and um we even have a chapter on divorce and how to negotiate that so i would point people in the direction of the book if if this is an area they're interested in and i did get a copy you know and we in, I'm speaking to you in a city, in a major city, et cetera. But do you think attitudes have changed? Is there still a curiosity? Do people want to know how you had the child? You mentioned IVF there, Carla.

I think it's funny, almost as a queer parent, you sometimes go into situations sort of geared up for a bit of a fight or a bit of a soapbox moment and you sort of you know I remember going into my NCT class with my wife thinking right we're gonna have to do loads of explaining and you know ready you know with my little lesbian mum leaflet to show people and we got we got in there and there were oh you know all the sort of information about how it happened or what you know anyway we got into the NCT class there was another lesbian mum couple there and I was a bit like oh

I was all ready to be the only ones and you know similarly um at the school gates now you know I sort of maybe went into that situation thinking we're going to be the lesbian parents you know we have to do the educating and of course there's another girl with two mums in my daughter's class so what education do you have to do because maybe I'm missing a trick as well for my listeners here in terms of education as a parent to your child no to to society in the sense what is it that you feel you need to explain well I guess my point is actually maybe I don't maybe I don't need to explain maybe I was sort of geared up thinking I did that people would have all of these questions and concerns I think it would be things like um how how did you become pregnant without a man um it would be

things like well aren't you worried about the child getting bullied? You know, who does what in the relationship? Is one of you more of the mother? Is one of you more of the father? You know, those kind of questions. Yeah, I often get that. Are you a dad? Right. You know, well, obviously not. Yeah.

And then my child would come up screaming, mummy, you know. Yeah, yeah. And I'm also mummy. Okay. When in suits. Yeah. And do you get asked about having male figures within your life? Oh, yeah, that's another slightly annoying. I mean, questions are often presented in a sort of, like, very interested, curious way. But sometimes there can be a little bit of a misunderstanding at the root of them.

And that's something that I hope our book does is sort of give people answers so they don't need to ask these kind of questions. So, yeah, the male role models is, yes, of course, there's male role models in our daughter's life and, you know. Likewise. Yeah. Yeah. And we've made that a priority as well.

Lottie Jeffs and Carla, thank you both so much for coming in. Thanks for having us. Thanks Carla again for suggesting it for Listener Week. Listener Week, that's turned into Listener Weeks as we talk about it today. Thank you so much for joining us. Oh, Woman on Wheels, Joanna got in touch. She learned to ride her motorcycle when she was 50. The relationship had broken down. She was raising two young girls as a single mum. They'd been made redundant and she fulfilled a lifelong ambition to ride a motorcycle. She now rides motorbikes with her 87-year-old father

and met her husband riding a motorbike six years ago and they travel all over Europe together. That is brilliant. She can't recommend a motorcycle enough for a midlife crisis. Excellent. Well, I want to turn to Japan next

where political parties are boosting their support to try and get more women into political office. The country's ruling party and opposition party are both offering financial incentives, pledging a million Japanese yen or over £5,000 in aid of each new female candidate. And many would say the

country sorely needs women in politics, with the World Economic Forum showing that only 10% of the country's parliamentary positions are held by women. Joining me now on this is Ray Murakami, the president of the Murakami Foundation, who has set up the Public Leaders Academy with this goal in mind. Also with me is Tokyo-based journalist Hanako Montgomery. Welcome to both of you. Hi, thank you for having us. Hi, thank you. Now you now Hanako can you lay out what this support financial I was mentioning for female candidates would look like

yeah so in terms of financial support for female candidates I mean this would basically be just an economic incentive really for political parties to have more women running for office. As you mentioned, only 10% of women right now in the lower house are women. And in the most recent local elections, I think there's something like 15% of women ran. And Japan has set a goal in 2018 to have 35% of its House of Representatives be women, but it's extremely low at the moment still. But I'm wondering, really £5,000 per candidate, would that really make a difference? You know, I think £5,000 a candidate, it's a bit hard to say because, you know, I think there are some instances where financial support could really change a candidate's

future as a political representative. You know, in terms of local elections, I mean, they run for a shorter amount of time and they have perhaps less financial backing from the party because sometimes they might not even have a party affiliation. So, you know, that extra few thousand pounds could go a long way. But at the same time, is it the solution to get more women into politics i think a lot of activists and political commentators would say no i think there are many other solutions besides just five thousand pounds per candidate that could increase female representation well let me throw that over to you ray i mean you speak

with some of japan's political parties about increasing female participation. What do you think of this scheme or what do you think it would take to really do it? So I think the financial incentive vote definitely kind of pushed more women to go into the political world. But I think what's more important from this news is that the LDP, the leading party,

actually has set a goal to increase the percentage of female Parliament members to 30 over the next 10 years and I think this is very huge commitment and I feel that it might actually change the environment because the leading party the LDP was kind of one of the biggest causes that we did not have a drastic increase in female politicians because the leading party this it has been the leading party most of the time in the past 30 years and they have always had a very low percentage of female candidates and actually the opposition party the cdp actually had over 50 of female candidates but they cannot win so many seats so the increase in female politicians has

been very slow in japan when compared to other countries so this commitment that was made the financial the financial incentive as well as their goal to the goal that they set up to to reach 30 percent over the next 10 years might actually bring in change starting from the next election okay um Let me turn back to you, Hanako, because, you know, we've often heard about Japan and the role of women within that society in leadership roles, for example.

And with the former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, who was assassinated, he had womenomics in 2015. And they were criticised for encouraging women to, yes, get back into the workforce, but they didn't address the underlying issues, things like childcare, for example. How do you understand why there are so few Hanako in various places like politics? You know, I think when we look at other democratic nations that, you know, for instance, the

G7 countries, Japan really does lag far behind in terms of politics. Its speech strides in terms of other sectors for gender equality. But in Japan, I think because there's such a, you know, a rule, really, this social understanding that men, that politics is a place for men to run. It's not really a woman's game. I think that sort of mentality, that stereotype really has just kind of hung on to Japanese society. And, you know, besides that, I think there's just not a lot of infrastructure at the moment to help women run for politics. You mentioned, you know, child care. I think most women still really struggle with this idea that they have to clean the house,

cook for their families, you know, support their husbands. And when you have women who are expected to do those kind of household chores, but then also want to run for politics, how do they balance that? I think it's a huge question for them. So that's some of the structural problems. Ray, would something like quotas work? So I would agree that the legal binding quota system would definitely automatically increase the percentage of the female politicians. But I think realistically speaking,

it would be very difficult right now for Japan to implement that because there's too many people who are opposed to it. So, yeah, it would definitely work if it's legal binding. Right now, it's just, you know, voluntary quota system that's by the parties. If it's the legal binding, that would definitely increase the percentage. I mean, do you think there's an appetite for that ray to introduce quotas i mean i'm actually pushing forward uh the quota system in japan i would when i talk to the parties i kind of say that unless we do this because right now there's too much gender bias

in in the candidate selection process because it's very male dominated. But are people open to the quota, do you think? Not so many people, I think, especially within the parliament, right? Because like we mentioned, 90% are men and the average age is 55 years old. And I think older generation and men are less supportive of quota system, of course. So I think it's not so, I'm not too hopeful, but yeah, I'm actually together

with other activists I'm working toward to it. It's really interesting. Let us see exactly what happens. I want to thank Ray Murakami, president of the Murakami Foundation, who set up the Public Leaders Academy with the goal of increasing

participation of women. And also we had Tokyo-based journalist, that's Hanako Montgomery. Thanks so much for speaking to us here on Woman's Hour. If you want to get in touch with the programme, 84844 is the number to text. I want to go back, however, now to our top story. We were talking about the 21 women of Indian origin

in Coventry in the 1960s who were part of a controversial medical trial where they were told to consume radioactive chapatis. Now, we contacted the MRC, as it was called, the Medical Research Council, who conducted this study and who the MP Taiwo Oetemi wants answers from. And I want to bring you what it was they have said in response to that call. Well, public and patient involvement,

they say, ethical practice and trust is critical to the work of the Medical Research Council and the whole medical research community. The issue of radioisotopes, radioactive tracers, which they are, within studies funded by the MRC in the 1950s and 1960s,

was raised by a TV documentary in 1995. And following its broadcast and also an independent inquiry was established to address the important questions that it raised. This has recently been the subject of renewed discussion and has re-raised questions and concerns about how those studies were conducted, what was learned from the subsequent independent inquiry and how these issues are considered today. We understand those concerns and we have contacted Taiwo Owatemi,

the MP, as I mentioned, to help ensure those questions can be answered. An inquiry into this published its report in May 1998. The report did recognise that research practice, ethics and regulation had moved on significantly since the studies were originally undertaken and made a series of recommendations. It's also important to note, they say, that the work by the MRC and across the sector has and continues to strengthen approaches to public and patient involvement, ethics and regulation over the 25 years since that report was published. And if you missed our interview, it is at the beginning of our programme, which will be up on BBC Sounds a little bit later.

If you think you're somebody who could have perhaps been affected by this or you know somebody who's been affected by this, the MP Taiwo Oatemi in Coventry is the person to get in touch with they're trying to understand exactly how far reaching was that particular experiment but that's all from me for today

join me tomorrow, weekend's a woman's hour, weekend woman's hour even from four o'clock and it's another chance to hear the best parts of the programme this week including the broadcaster Sarah Beeney on her new book. We also have the programme

on lists. We'll talk a little bit about that and the legendary award-winning Chelsea women's football manager Emma Hayes on her style of leadership.

I hope you'll join me tomorrow at four. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm India Raxson, and I just want to quickly talk to you about witches. In this series from BBC Radio 4,

simply titled Witch, I'm going to explore the meaning of the word today. It is a twisting, turning rabbit warren of a world full of forgotten connections to land and to power, lost graves, stolen words, and indelible marks on the world. Because the story of The Witch is actually the story of us all.

Come and find out why on Witch with me, India Rackerson. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.