Woman's Hour - Rain Newton-Smith, Paralympian Lauren Rowles, Homelessness

Episode Date: February 15, 2024

In April last year, The Guardian exposed allegations of rape, sexual assault and harassment at the Confederation of British Industry (CBI). Rain Newton-Smith took over as Chief Executive and pledged to reform the culture of the organisation. As she approaches a year in the job, Rain speaks to Nuala McGovern about what progress has been made. She also gives her reaction to the news that the UK fell into recession in December 2023.It’s been nearly a year since we announced the Woman’s Hour Power List, celebrating incredible women in the world of sport. Today we are joined by one of those who placed on the list ahead of her attempt to break a record at this summer's Paris Paralympics. The two-time Paralympic Gold, World and European champion British rower Lauren Rowles is training hard for what she hopes will be her third Paralympic Gold and joins Nuala to discuss her glittering career and her work away from sport advocating for LGBTQ+ people and those struggling with their mental health.  Lorna Tucker ran away from home at the age of 14 and ended up living on the streets of Soho in London. Now a filmmaker, her latest release, Someone’s Daughter, Someone’s Son, has forced her to revisit life on the streets, both from her own perspective and those currently sleeping rough. Writer Helen Russell moved to Denmark a decade ago and wrote a bestselling book, The Year of Living Danishly. Several books and three children later, she has now turned her attention to the parenting culture of Denmark and other Nordic nations. Her new book is How to Raise a Viking: The Secrets of Parenting the World's Happiest Children. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lucy Wai

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, you may have heard this morning that the UK has entered recession, so we're going to have more on that and the future of the CBI, the Confederation of British Industry, that was accused a year ago of having a toxic culture. In a moment, we speak to the CBI's CEO. We'll also talk to one of the women featured on our Woman's Hour Power List, the two-time gold medal Paralympic rower, that is

Lauren Rowles. And she's set for Paris 2024, hoping to break a record. Another thing we'll talk about is how, when Lauren chopped her hair off recently, it made her feel more like her real self. So do let us know if you've ever changed how you wear your hair to make you feel more like your authentic self. What gave you the confidence to take that bold step? And how has it worked out? Text number 84844 on social media.

We're at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email us through our website or for WhatsApp, it is 03700 100 444. You can send us a message or a voice note using that number. Also coming up this hour, how to raise a Viking. Author Helen Russell will be in studio on what she has learned from parenting the Nordic

way. So get ready for outdoor sleeping and six-year-olds carrying their own personal axe. And the director, Lorna Tucker, will be here. Her new film focuses on homelessness, something she went through living on the streets of Soho as a teenager.

And we'll also talk about how she thinks you can end it. But let me begin, indeed, with that news that Britain is officially in recession. I'm going to be speaking to the woman responsible for representing the views of business. And I'm really keen to get her take on that news this morning, especially as we know women are more likely to be negatively affected by a recession. But let me also take your mind back to April last year when a Guardian exclusive found allegations of a toxic culture within the Confederation of British Industry. It's known as the CBI and it lobbies on behalf of businesses. It came under scrutiny after more than a dozen female staff members claimed to be victims of various forms of sexual misconduct,

ranging from rape to senior managers sharing explicit images. And following an independent investigation, the business group admitted it had hired, and I quote, culturally toxic staff, and it failed to fire people who were sexually harassing colleagues. But many companies, including John Lewis, Tesco, Aviva they had already cut ties. Rain Newton-Smith who had been with the CBI as their chief economist for 10 years took over as director general and has been in the post nearly a year so we want to find out what sort of changes she's made to the culture since then and

Rain joins me now. Good morning, welcome. Good good morning it's an absolute pleasure to be with you well we'll get into uh some of the issues i raised there but let us turn to the uk falling into a recession during the final three months of the last year can i get your reaction to that this morning well look it's obviously disappointing news but i think we shouldn't get too swayed by one or two quarters of data what's really important right is that we know over the past 18 months growth in the uk has been really slow we pretty much flatlined in terms of our overall growth and what we need going forward is a real focus on investment investment in people in innovation and so that we can really make the

most of the uk economy because we have so many strengths from the creative industries our brilliant universities our professional services our amazing uh advanced manufacturing sector so we have so many capabilities and it's really important we make the most of that so that we can really see sustainable growth in our society. It's interesting when you talk about investment in people. There was a recent bit of research by Quilter, which is a wealth management company. They found that over one third of women

would be unable to afford everyday expenses if the UK entered a recession and that was compared to a quarter of men. In your experience, are women likely to be worse off in times like this? Look, we know that whether it's women or also races

is another factor that when we see economic shocks hit our economy, those groups tend to be more affected than others. So and what can we do about that? That's about making sure we have the right policies in place. And one of the things I'm really proud of some of the work that the CBI has done is a year ago, we pushed really hard for the Chancellor to expand the provision of childcare that is obviously to support working parents.

That's not only for women, but we know that more women are more likely to be the primary carer of young children. So I think having that support in place is really important. What we're focused on now is making sure that all women and working men have access to high quality childcare places. One of the challenges now is there's more support to help parents with some of the costs of those places. But if you can't find high quality places because we don't have enough people to provide high quality childcare, then it won't get the outcome that we need.

So do you see any progress on that particular aspect of getting those spaces? I think we are seeing progress. We're calling for a proper workforce plan to really think how we get those high quality spaces. And it's one of the areas more broadly where we would like we'd like to have a more honest conversation around immigration and some of what it provides to our economy, because we know immigration isn't only part of it. It needs to be two things. One, making sure that we have enough training and support for young people and people of all ages to get into childcare.

It's a really important part of our economy, but that we also make it affordable for businesses that are providing childcare to be able to provide high quality spaces. And it's also about making sure where we know that there are acute skill shortages and on occasion that is true for providing childcare, that we have routes for people to provide some of that, to come to the UK and provide

and fill some of those skills gaps so that we can really make sure we have an economy that works for everyone. It's so interesting. I'm actually speaking to somebody a little bit later who's very much looked at the Nordic countries and it varies so greatly from what the UK is doing. So I will be continuing that conversation, kind of what they feel they've done right and where perhaps the UK could also learn. But you do mention this aspect of a year ago. Let us return to a year ago. I laid out some of the allegations

that were made about the CBI and also them accepting that toxic hiring of certain staff. You were a chief economist for a decade at the CBI. Was the misogynistic culture something that you were aware of? And I think this is, you know, it's really difficult because it's not only about my personal experience. I was really fortunate within my career at the CBI. And I think the story that

isn't always told is, you know, the majority of staff at the cbi are women my senior leadership are 70 percent women and my experience i have the privilege to serve under carolyn fairburn who was uh a very uh powerful and empathetic uh female leader and really supported me to be a brilliant chief economist at some of the really challenging times for our economy, whether that was through the pandemic or some of those other areas, and to be a brilliant chief economist and also raise four daughters. But I think for me, the reason why I came back to lead the CBI is I didn't recognise that description of the CBI as having a toxic culture. But I had to acknowledge that there were some really difficult stories emerging. And if at any point that had, you know, some of those things had happened to women in the organisation, I was determined to lead us forward and to make

sure that we had embedded a culture in our organisation, like there should be in every organisation, where women can raise issues, they're supported in raising those issues, evidence is heard and action is taken. And I think one of the things that the investigation, which happened before I came back to the CBI, where we appointed a legal firm to look at some of the allegations that had been raised, they were clear that where the leadership knew about some of these instances they took action but as we know what's important is we need to make sure that everyone in an organization supports that speak up culture and that's what i think every organization really needs to work at every day. We know these challenges exist in our wider society. We've seen,

you know, really harrowing examples from the NHS, from the Met Police, from so many different elements. And I think we all need to work together. So you talk there about a speak up culture, and I'd like to speak about that a little bit more. But what sort of leader are you? I try to be as open as I can be and I think I really want to and I've always tried to really support women in the workplace that's really important to me. I'm a female economist in a profession which can be male dominated and I'm very proud within my own teams, how I've seen, you know, the brilliant female economists who've come to the CBI and then gone on to amazing careers,

whether that's at the BBC or the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation. But I think for me, it's not, and leading an organisation, it isn't only about me, it's about the culture I create within that organisation. And it's about what leading an organization it isn't only about me it's about the culture I create within that organization and it's about what we do every day and I'm very proud of what our people and staff at the CBI have done and how we've worked on making sure that we really understand some of the issues that we embed the values we want you won't surprise you that courage is one of the values that we've really said we need to uh that we think we embody when you think about all that we've gone through over the past year and we want to be brilliant at the work we do and i think that's

one of the things about being a female leader is as i've got older i feel i can be braver about you know talking about women and and talking about how we support women in the workplace. Let's talk about a couple of those. Bravery, as you talk about, and courage, being part of the culture. And you also mentioned encouraging people to speak up. But what is there within that culture to support them? Because we know, you've mentioned some examples there, and I'm sure it's the same in many other organisations as well, that there can be ramifications if somebody speaks up. They can be afraid for their career and for their job. So what has changed in the past 12 months since you've been the head to make that an easier process? Well, I think in the first instance, we've seen change in the organization, we've seen a change in leadership, we've seen change embedded in how we do things. And I think

there's some brilliant examples of what we've done. And actually, some of that has come from talking to businesses and saying, what have you put in place? What is best practice? And so we have things. So we actually have an practice and so we have things so we actually have an app where people can raise things anonymously but then we also have a way of having two-way communication it's called um face up and it's actually really helpful because it means if someone raises an issue you can then they can have anonymity but then you can also get more detail so you can help support support them but really understand the issue and then take action so that's one thing we've put in place we've made

sure that all our managers and all our staff are trained in how you raise a grievance how you deal with it what are the different routes and how you support staff at all levels in doing that and actually the people who provided that training haven't just been our HR, they've been our economists, our tax professionals, our campaigners have helped to do those videos and those training modules so that it really feels relatable and that this is everyone's responsibility in the organisation.

And are more people coming forward? So I think we do, I mean, we're a small organization and when we look at the overall issues that are raised is very similar to other to other organizations like what maybe give us an example well i think one of the things we actually appointed an expert advisory group so we're really uh really lucky to have the CEO of Mind, the head of the Survivors Trust, to sort of look at our journey and each stage of what we put in.

And one of the things they said is, when you first put all these measures in place, what you should see is actually an increase in people raising issues. Because what you want people to do is come forward with issues that may have happened a decade ago, right? You want people to come forward, but it's important about how you address that.

So we have gone through that journey. We've had to do all these things at speed and scale. So there was a huge, intense period, even before I joined the organisation where action was taken. And then we worked as well with an amazing organisation called Principia Advisory, who are experts in building ethical organisations. They've worked with the very big corporates. They've also worked with Save the Children, with Oxfam and other NGOs.

And what do they do specifically? I think they do two really important things. So first of all, you really have to come and listen to how your staff are feeling at that point in time. And you can just imagine the range of emotions of what people were feeling within the organisation. Tell me a little what that was. So everyone, just a huge range of experiences. When I came back, I said, look, we need to just stand and sit and listen to some of the emotions we're feeling. Some people felt very angry at the description of the organisation. Other people were very upset.

We know generally one in four women and men are a victim of sexual assault or rape in their lives. So not necessarily anything to do with their workplace and yet so some were feeling some of that trauma not a cbi experience but experiences they have in their own personal lives or in their working lives and then uh you know so we had to be really sensitive to some of those emotions and some people were just like look i've always had a really brilliant uh experience at the cbi i don't recognize this so principia were able to just, you know, everyone was really engaged with that process. Over 90% of our staff responded to a survey, which sounds distant, but it was incredible the amount of feedback that came

through that. They did over 100 interviews with individual staff and our overall staff numbers are around, you know, less than than 200 people so that is a huge amount of engagement and they were able to look at it and what they said was actually they didn't recognize a toxic culture but one of the issues there were was an inconsistency of experience so an inconsistency of experience of the employees or explain that to me yeah so i think this is just it and this will be true in I think any organization that doesn't recognize that I think is probably not being honest with themselves that you can come into an organization and have a brilliant manager and feel super

supported and you know but you can have other areas where you don't have enough focus and maybe a manager who isn't as experienced and And you may not have the best experience. So what's important is not assuming because you've had a brilliant experience that that's been the case for everyone at every point in that organization's history. And I think having an organization who could come and listen to our staff,

make some recommendations, and we have embedded all of their recommendations. And what's been absolutely brilliant and galvanizing for the many women and men in our organization who are talented economists policy specialists is you know from the summer we've been back doing the work we really love that's what we want to be known for it's about talking to policymakers on both sides of the house so around the issues we need to grapple with and let me just continue with this for a moment because I mentioned him briefly,

the CBI's former Director General, Tony Danker, he was sacked following complaints about his behaviour, which he and the CBI say are unrelated to the historical claims of misconduct. Last week, he settled out of court for wrongful dismissal. And as part of that agreement, both parties have said they won't comment on it further. So you've been clear that you can't comment specifically on that.

But I was thinking it raises these interesting questions about leadership, which we have been talking about. And there is a belief that culture starts at the top and it's about big decisions and then small actions. And I'm wondering what, because you're talking about trying to get everybody on that same cultural page instead of having micro cultures throughout the company if i've understood correctly because different people coming in what is appropriate when it comes to work and a work culture for

example are drinks between senior and junior colleagues a good policy or is it blurring the lines? I mean, look, there's so many elements in your question. It's a really good one. I think, you know, look, we want the places we work to be fun. You want to be creating friendships. You know, I'm really lucky. The CBI inside and the staff I've you know it's a really kind organization which is hard to see uh from maybe how it's been portrayed and I really do own some of our history on that I am not shying away from it in any way shape or form but I think

for me I've always supported women who have raised issues with me and and also I think and you touched on it there as well really thinking about how we protect anonymity is really vital right it only works if people feel they can raise issues and then be known for their work and not for anything else beyond that but I think on some of the trickier areas you were sort of raising you know what is appropriate the thing I think people always have to remember, and I've been conscious of it as I've become more senior, I'm now chief executive of the organization. You have to be mindful that you, you know, there is a power imbalance there and you really have to respect it. And actually, you know, you shouldn't be doing anything at work that you wouldn't sit down and tell your grandmother about right it's i think some of it's pretty basic but i think what you have to absolutely be mindful of is as you become more senior you hold more authority and

there is an imbalance of power and you have to be really sensitive to that do you think now rain if someone within the cBI was a victim of sexual misconduct, would they know what to do? I absolutely, sincerely hope so. And I, you know, I think we have tried to put everything in place and work on this culture consistently to talk about it, to make sure people understand. But I think anyone who says that journey is finished, you know, that's when complacency slips slips in so it's something we want to continually work forward I want people to feel they can come forward I want managers to feel equipped and mainly I want other organizations to learn from what we've done many of our members of businesses have come you know and said look

we're really interested in your journey can you talk through some of the things that you've done so we can think about how we as an organisation can be better? I think this has to be all of society really working together to make sure that women and men can thrive in the workplace and feel supported. And just before I let you go, the government also distanced itself from the CBI, as did Manny. I was mentioning some of the high profile companies like Tesco, Jaguar, Land Rover, Aviva. How are relations now? Does Chancellor Jeremy Hunt answer your phone calls? Yes, absolutely. And also the Labour Party as well, as we head into a general election, is really important. And what's been absolutely brilliant is to be able to post the Chancellor and Johnny Reynolds, the Shadow Business Secretary

at our conference to be able to do some of those public platforms to ask them what they've had for breakfast, but also get them to set out their economic vision. But there's also so much work that happens behind the scenes,

talking to civil servants and just setting out some of the economic analysis that we have from our surveys. We're so proud to speak on behalf of DHL, of Honda, HSBC, EDF, Airbus, and many of the smaller businesses that you wouldn't have heard of, right? And universities and further education colleges. I think doing this role is a real privilege to be able to speak on their behalf. We will speak to you again. Rain Newton-Smith,

thank you so much for giving us your vision this morning, a year in the role of CBI as both CEO and Director General. Thank you for joining us on Woman's Hour. And I do just want to read

from Tony Danker's lawyer. He said, Tony doesn't have any statement to make as part of the settlement agreement, as I mentioned, with the CBI. Both parties agreed to make no further comment on that matter. Right, let us move on.

I keep going back a year ago. I'm going to do that again. When Women's Hour announced our power list celebrating remarkable women in the world of sport, our number one spot went to the England football captain, Leah Williamson, and you can read about her and all the other fantastic women who made the top 30 on the

Women's Hour website even. Today I'm joined by two-time gold medal Paralympic rower that is Lauren Rowles and she featured on our Powerlist. She joins me today as she builds up for what she hopes will be a record-breaking Paralyst Paralympics later this year.

Lauren is also a strong advocate for LGBTQ plus representation in sport and has spoken very movingly about her struggle with mental health. You're very welcome, Lauren. Good morning. Thank you for having me on the show. So belated congratulations

on placing on the Paralyst. How did you feel about that news? Oh, overwhelmed in one sense. I think to myself some days, you know, when moments like that happen, that I'm just Lauren trying to live my life. And you don't really think that what you do and being a sports person, I guess in some senses is that powerful. But then the flip side of that is the impact that we do have as people,

and especially as women in sport and as a queer person in sport myself, the impact that we have about influencing those around us. And certainly for me, my motivation to impact the younger generation. And so for me,

it was a real honour to be on the list with some absolute heroes of mine and women who are absolutely making impact in our world. Well, I've always enjoyed speaking to all the women on our power list. And your story is quite something as well. Do you want to tell us a little bit about how you got into rowing? Yeah, I reflect on my start of my journey in rowing is a very funny one because I grew

up in Birmingham and in Birmingham, you don't really do rowing it's not really a common sport in the Midlands per se and when I grew up I never had any idea really what rowing was and really how I landed my spot in in a seat in a boat was that I got offered an opportunity I was talent scouted by the British rowing team in early 2015. But can we stop there for a second, just where you got scouted? Yeah, I got scouted at Stoke Mandeville Hospital, which is a spinal centre there. And until you're 18, you have to go back there every single year to receive sort of a check-in, see how you're doing,

how you're coping to life in a chair. And I had become disabled when I was 13 and I had a spinal injury and so until I was 18 I just kept going uh to Stoke Mandeville and in the one week that I was there in 2015 my sports therapist said to me the British rowing team are coming down and they want to find some talent and get people on indoor rowers and at the time I was involved in wheelchair racing I was 16 I'd just come back from the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow and live my absolute dream there. And I just really didn't see myself moving away from the sport. And then, but I was taking a bit of a break. I had an injury at the time. And so when my sports therapist at Stoke Mandeville said

to me, you know, you should come down and try rowing out. I wasn't really convinced, if I'm honest with you. I'd never done rowing before, never been on an indoor rower. But I am massively competitive, obviously. And I remember she pulled me down from the ward and she said, please come down. She dragged me down there and I got on this indoor rower. And there was, no joke, this old guy that was sat next to me. And I just took one look at him and thought,

I'm going to beat you today. And that's where the journey started, really. And not long after that, I convinced my mum to drive me down to Reading from Birmingham, the 100 mile trip and get in a boat for the very first time. And that's how it began, really. But how did that feel, the first time you went to row on the water? Oh, it feels like the moment that I got in a boat for the very first time, I still remember vividly to this day, because I remember how it made me feel. I think at the time

of my life, just to give a bit of context, you know, I was a bit of a troubled teenager, I'd become disabled overnight, literally, when I was 13. And I had to become accustomed to living life with a disability and I think I never really spoke to a therapist though I was deeply encouraged to and sort of went to my obligatory appointments but didn't really say anything because I think when you're a teenager you don't really think that anything or when you're a young person especially you don't think that anything bad is permanent and I always thought one day you know my life would get better and that living with a disability wouldn't wouldn't be permanent it wouldn't be forever and then I think when I got into my later teenage years and I realized just how permanent my condition was I think for me I

just really closed myself into a box and went into my shell and sport for me was my therapy with my way of I guess battling the demons and when I sort of got in a boat for the very first time, the most powerful moment for me was really pushing off from that side, being out on the water and not being in my wheelchair. And that for me was a really powerful moment in my life of just being free from the disability for the very first time since I had it. And I was addicted to it ever since then. And that and the fact that it's really, really hard, which I love the element of something being so difficult and I just wanted to be good at it and so I wanted to master the skill of it it's way harder than it looks all I'll say that is

that people get in boats and think they can just pull on the handles it's absolutely not like that it's such an element of skill and that and the fact that I was going to work in a team full of amazing people as well that were teaching me not only about how to be an incredible athlete but disabled people around me that live normal lives and I hadn't really seen that as a young person growing up with a disability I didn't realize that you could have kids and a loving relationship and a job and you could drive a car and I was learning all these things about having life with a disability that they showed me. Yeah I mean it was I was watching on your things about having life with a disability that they showed me. Yeah I mean it was I was watching on your website it was overnight just to let our listeners know

you were 13 years of age fine one day and not the next and I will tell them to go to your website and take a look also just at that time when you were 13 and so obviously it's going to take a lot of time to process and I want to get on to some of the home life as well. I just want to throw out to our listeners, though, as I speak to you, because you're on a screen in front of me, you have short hair. You didn't always have short hair. Tell me that story before I get to Paris.

Ah, the story of the mullet, which is what I'm currently rocking now. Looks good. It needs fresh trim at the minute, but... For me, I grew up with long hair, always. In any photo you'll see of me when I was young I had a bob once I donated to the little princess's trust and that was as short as I ever went was a bob uh but I always wanted to cut my hair short I always had this urge as a young girl

I grew up loving football always in a football kit was a bit of a tomboy as they say now and I just lived to do sport really and I didn't really feel that feminine um but I knew I was a girl and I knew I was a woman then later when I grew up and I never I always identified as that and it's not like I ever wanted to be a boy but I always felt like I was different and I wanted to make different choices in how I dressed and how I looked and how I wanted to have my hair to what the other girls at my school did. And then when I sort of was in school, I was bullied for being a little bit different. I was bullied for being the girl that did sport and was so into sport and wore a football kit and hung out with the boys. And I think that's where I started to realize that I was different to other girls.

And for me, I think that progressed into then because I was so heavily bullied I then chose to make this decision to conform then I wanted to have friends and be popular like every young person does and so I decided to conform I pierced my ears I started wearing makeup I started wearing more feminine clothing and conforming to what a woman or a young girl should look like in inverted commas and that for me then I sort of then stripped back who Lauren really was and through my teenage years it got to the point where I suffered so badly with anxiety and my lack of self-esteem that I would never go out the house without having makeup on but yeah I hated wearing makeup I hated how it made me look

but at the same time I felt like people would judge me if I didn't. I had my hair consistently long. I started wearing it only down. I started wearing more, you know, feminine revealing clothing. And I think that for me, it just didn't feel like me. So when you chopped it? So when I chopped it all off, I did that a couple of years ago. And in a point, probably, like some people,

when they go through a bit of mental health crisis, maybe do something a little bit drastic. I was going through a really difficult point in my life and I came out a few years ago. And as part of that journey, you learn who you are and you start to get to express that. And that's the beauty of Queer Joy. And I decided a couple of years ago

when I was going through a bit of a rough patch, why not? Like, why not now do something that makes me feel good about myself, makes me look in the mirror and go, you look amazing today, Lauren. So I cut my hair off, and at the time, you know, I'd said to people for ages

that I wanted to do it, and they said, don't do it. You know, that's, you know, you're gonna look like a boy. And I just thought thought what nonsense is this that still in 2022 we're still conforming to this idea of what men and women should look like and I'm a bit of a defiant person I'll say that and I just decided you know what I'm going to cut you off well it looks it looks great and there's lots of people that are getting in touch with their stories inspired by yours that I mentioned at the top. But I want to also look ahead while I have you to the Paris Games this summer.

You've got a pretty clear goal in mind, a record-breaking goal. What is it? My goal is this year, as I embark on my third Paralympic Games selection, hopefully, to make the GB team, is to win my third ever Paralympic gold medal consecutively. And that's never been done in the history of power rowing is for an athlete to win three back-to-back gold medals so to say that I'm

doing something for the history books is an understatement and to have my name to that would be just my life's mission in sport as personally as an athlete and to go out there and prove that you can be different in a sport that is a bit more traditional and you can be yourself authentically. And that brings the best version of yourself to what you do. And I really want to just promote that in what I do now. And so, yeah, hopefully that's the mission. Most would be thinking, OK, that's such a huge goal that you're working towards. But you are engaged to fellow Paralympian Jude Hamer

and you're expecting a baby very soon. In 2024, there will be a new addition to your family. Yeah, there will be. Baby Hamer is on the way. We found out that we were pregnant last summer after a long sort of time of us going through facility treatment. Obviously, it's the same-sex couple and a few challenges that my partner Jude has as she suffers with endometometriosis so for us it came at an unexpected time for us we both

sort of was expecting to be heading towards the game jude plays wheelchair basketball and obviously myself as a rower and we expected to go on and and kind of do these games together and we did tokyo together which was a very unusual experience during kobe because we couldn't actually see each other even though we were both in Tokyo together. So Paris was going to be for us the whole complete experience. Our families there, us both going to compete

and me being able to go and watch Stu compete actually at the Games because I never got to experience that in Tokyo. I watched it like everybody else on a TV screen when I got home. And that for me was going to be the experience. And then we had this situation placed in front of us where we had to make a decision about our future. And I think as athletes, you sort of think that comes post-retirement, you know, kids and having

babies is sort of what you do when you retire. We just sort of decided to make this decision for our futures. And we were like, no, we're going to try and start trying for a child now. And yeah, we got pregnant in the summer of last year. So soon? So yeah, so we're about five weeks away from having our first baby, which is just terrifying and the most exciting thing we've ever done. Well, congratulations to both of you and also continued success. We will be watching very closely.

It's been so lovely to have you on, Lauren. And, you know, great to have you on our Power List as well. That's Lauren Rowles, who has featured on the Woman's Hour Power List. Getting ready for Paris. We're hearing about babies there. We're going to talk about parenting next with Helen Russell. She moved to Denmark a decade ago. She wrote a best-selling book, The Year of Living

Danishly, about setting up home in a foreign country. Several books and several children later, three kids now. She's turned her attention to the parenting culture of Denmark but also other Nordic nations. Her new book is How to Raise a Viking, The Secrets of Parenting the World's Happiest

Children. Is that fair to call it a parenting book, Helen? Welcome. Thank you so much. I think it's a book for anyone with children in their lives. I was interested in things for caregivers, for teachers, people who work with children, just because it's so alien to anything I certainly grew up with in the UK. OK. Now, you mentioned Viking. I remember you had a little Viking, your first one. I read your first book, and he was a little redhead that popped out. But why use the term Viking?

Well, I think there is something throughout all the Nordic countries. So we know that Scandinavian countries, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, but the Nordic countries, including Finland and Iceland as well, there are things that unite them all. And although Finland, people don't think of it as a Viking country, actually, the history of Finland is pretty Viking heavy. But they just didn't get on the PR campaign quite early on. So the Viking kind of outdoorsyness, there's a spirit that really goes throughout all of those five countries. Right. So there's so much in it.

And this Nordic Viking parenting, I think we need to get into this trust. I'm not going to attempt to say it in Danish. Maybe you'd like to. The tilly? That's it. And you quote one of your friends, a veteran Viking, saying, our children grow up free because they trust. Give me examples. So babies are left to sleep outside in their prams up to minus 20 degrees. Wim Hof has nothing on Viking babies. 79% of Danes trust most people.

And, you know, it's a small country. It's about 5.8 million, so maybe the size of South London. But still, I didn't trust everyone in South London either when I lived there. So schools have no gates. Children are trusted not to run off. And till it, yeah, this this word that means trust and faith just is a real linchpin of society in Denmark, especially. But with that, you must have had some culture clashes because the outdoor sleeping.

I remember one when a Danish woman and her playwright husband left their baby sleeping outside a restaurant. Some of our listeners may remember this in New York back in 97. I think she was arrested and taken in. And I mean, how did you find then coming up against this more freedom, trust, faith culture? Obviously, I was terrified to start. It took me a long time. And similarly, I struggled with fertility problems for many years. And it took a long time to conceive my child and then this precious baby the idea of leaving it to sleep

outside just seemed alien but then one day I did it because all of my other Danish friends my mother's group were doing it and it was okay and then I had twins and I couldn't get the twin pram in anywhere so enormous so so that that kind of came about that way. But yes, I spoke to Annetta, the Danish woman who had this case in New York. Back in 97, yeah. Yeah, and she's very calm about it now, but she still has a kind of disbelief because it's so normal in Denmark. She just can't understand why there was such a fuss in the US. A story I liked was about when you went to pick up your son from nursery daycare, but he was up a tree.

Do you want to tell us about that? Yes, yes. So there's not so much health and safety in the Vikings, in Viking countries. And there's a big emphasis on outdoor play and risky play as well. So letting children climb trees, fall, get bumps and bruises, no problem. So, yes, I came to do pick up one day and asked where my son was. And they're sort of running wild in sort of a field. No one was quite sure. Then finally, I found him up a tree.

The pedigrees, the early years educators sort of said, well, come down now. And it became very clear that he could not come down because if he could, he would have. So I had to kind of go up the tree as a grown woman laddering tights losing dignity in the process but um rather than I guess I was very surprised at first but then I thought well why not I mean that's kind of great that they get to have this experience and yeah my my child does not have a fear of heights now he's he can get down trees better um it just felt indicative of a very different approach. Isn't there something, if your kid hasn't broken a bone before 18,

you've failed at parenting? This isn't me, I should clarify. This is a Norwegian sociologist who said this. But there is still this culture throughout the Nordic countries that we should facilitate adventurous play. And actually it has an antiphobic effect. It's not the kids who fall and break an arm who have a fear of heights. It's the ones who never climbed a tree.

And actually we, as children, we are programmed to increase our certainty by seeking out uncertainty. So children are kind of natural thrill seekers, risk seekers. And if Nordics many believe if we don't give them opportunities to have this adventurous play, then they're going to seek out their kicks in other ways that maybe aren't so healthy later on. But what if things go wrong? Because there's also the stories of two-year-olds whittling wood with supervision, but also your six-year-old coming back with a catalogue for his own personal acts. I mean, we can see where things can go wrong and they must go wrong. What happens then? Well, I think it's very interesting speaking to

people in the US versus the UK about this. And I think in the Nordic countries, they would say we have this healthcare system tax funded, same as we do in the UK. And of course, the NHS is massively stretched and under a lot of pressure, but we still have this opportunity to get help if things go wrong so of course nobody wants their child to hurt themselves but if you do get a bump and a bruise or a cut or have to go to A&E which I've had to do many times with my children it's it's not the end of the world whereas you can see in countries like the US well medical bankruptcy could be heading your way so but there'll also be lawsuits. Yeah, absolutely. And that, I guess, kind of globalization,

that is coming a little bit more into the Nordic countries now. So many Norwegian caregivers, for example, would say younger parents maybe are less sure about having these adventurous, risky times because they're worried about that. They see things on social media. But the old school, the old guard, still very much believe that that's part of childhood and that children should be allowed to have this freedom. Freedom, freedom also for parents, because they have a sort of childcare in Nordic countries that others can only hope about,

which I actually started the programme briefly speaking about. Talk me through it in very broad strokes, what you're offered. Yeah, so parents are offered childcare. Most Danish children go to daycare from at least by the age of one and it's 75% subsidised by the state in Denmark. And actually the opening hours of daycare have transformed the way Danes work. So office hours typically are eight until four

and then everyone's allowed to go home to pick up their kids and have dinner with their families. And they may do more work after 7pm. But is that accepted? It's kind of accepted. Yeah. And Copenhagen may be an anomaly. It's the big city, but where I am in the sticks in rural Uland, it's very much the norm. And so I spoke to many kind of psychologists and Danish parents who said that almost we've created this sacred family time. And it doesn't mean that Danes aren't getting much done. They're the second most productive country in Europe. They're getting stuff done. They're just working smarter, not harder. They don't have that culture of presenteeism that many of us are used to here.

So that is subsidized childcare and the kids being sociable from 10 months out of the house and getting on with their risky behaviour. But there is, and I think this is interesting, it's interesting when you talk about younger parents there as well, a digital blind spot. Yes. Yeah, it's really interesting. So there's long been this social codex to give children freedom in Denmark, especially. And outdoors, we're talking about building things and climbing things. Absolutely, because they feel it's good for children. And also since Denmark's occupation during World War Two, there's this real sense of anti-authoritarian, like questioning things, having this freedom. But today's Danish children are allowed the same freedom online. And the use of digital tools in schools is higher in Denmark

than is in any other OECD country. How interesting. I've been banging my head against a brick wall for a long time on this. But interestingly, last week, actually, Denmark's Minister for Education finally kind of put his foot down and said he wants to have more mobile free schools. He wants to block access to irrelevant websites. He wants to do more analogue. So they hadn't got that already. They hadn't got it. Yeah. So the average age of kids getting a smartphone in the UK, I think, is 11. In Denmark, it's nine. So the only thing it has that helps mitigate this is that Danish children are brought up with all of these other interests and all of this other outdoor time. I mean, is it the long, dark winters? I don't know.

I mean, the weather is terrible. I mean, do people, I mean, because we talk about this outdoors, but there's probably still only so much time you can go outdoors when it's dark and cold. I mean, they will go out every day in full on balaclavas, snowsuits and everything. But yes, there's not much sunlight, Mordor. And so, yeah, I think there is much more of a culture of being at home, this hygge that was the big word years ago. And so I think as well, but really, it's just the freedom. It's this idea of, will you let children do this? Do you know what's interesting? You talked about the younger

parents, older parents in Denmark, and we have lots of people getting in touch. Here is one, Rosemary. We left babies out in prams in the UK in all weathers before the war. I left my babies born in 62 and 65. Why it stopped in the UK, I don't know. Another, I had three children in the 70s and 80s and we were definitely told to put them outside.

Obviously not in the rain, but yes, in cold weather. We did have huge prams. Maybe there were more weatherproof. Another, Danish childhood. Wonderful. Sounds like my 1950s childhood. Do you think it's going to

die out? I think things may well change, but there's enough of deep affection for the way things are. And I think the way that thinking about childcare again, the way it's structured so you have family time from four till seven, it's not just because they're trying to be nice.

It's not altruism. It's better for the economy. It's, you know, every dollar invested in childcare gets back $1.50. The impact of working mothers is the same as the value of Norway's oil reserves, for example. So there's so much that's part of the system

that's kind of baked in to the Nordic childhood now that I think they're safe for a little while. And, of course, the premise is that these happy kids then turn into happy adults and then they have this happiness index. Really interesting. Helen Russell, thank you so much. Lots of food for thought. How to raise a Viking. The secrets of parenting the world's happiest children. Thanks for all your messages coming in.

Hairstyles as well. Talking about Lauren. I changed my hairstyle when I retired last year. I'm 66 and decided to cut my hair and have a more dramatic style, which made me feel more like me, not like a retired person. I've had lots of compliments about my hairstyle choice.

Here's another. The pandemic helped me to decide to go natural with my hair. I've been chemically relaxing my natural Afro hair since I was 19. I'm now 53. I no longer have to go natural with my hair. I've been chemically relaxing my natural Afro hair since I was 19. I'm now 53. I no longer have to go to a corporate job. I moved to Lisbon, where I was inspired by other black women.

So I made a decision to do the big chop and I have no regrets. I feel so free. I exercise more, which includes a weekly swim class. No worry longer about damaging my hair. Now, moving on. Just under 8,500 people were recorded sleeping rough in

September last year. So that's an increase of 27% since the year before. Homelessness is something that we witness every day, whether it's directly through family and friends or indirectly those that we pass on the streets. And with numbers rapidly increasing, just how do we solve this issue? And what are the stories of those who find themselves in this predicament? Well, these are some of the questions that the documentary maker, Lorna Tucker, has been grappling with in her latest feature film, Someone's Daughter, Someone's Son. It highlights individual accounts from people working in the sector and also those that are sleeping rough.

And for Lorna, this is much more than just a social issue that interests her. Originally from Hertfordshire, she ran away from home at the age of 14, ending up homeless for two years in and around Soho, here in London. And here she is speaking about what life is like on the streets and the added risk of sexual assault for homeless women. The most dangerous time for women on the streets is that couple of hours between when the people have been out partying go home and before the others start getting up to go to work. is that couple of hours between when the people have been out partying go home

and before the others start getting up to go to work and that little spot there that couple of hours are the most dangerous if you fall asleep for then you generally wake up someone jerking off over you city boys on coke pissing on you, and even other street people high, shaking you awake, trying to molest you. This is why you don't see more women on the streets. They learn to become invisible. That's the only way they can survive.

That was Lorna, who joins me now in the studio. I'm so happy to have you here. I found, you know, that account this is obviously going to be the hardest film I've ever made. And it was the hardest edit as well for, you know, eight months having to listen to not only my story back, but to listen to the accounts of others that are all experiences that I lived through, to the point where when I locked the film, I haven't watched it back. So hearing it for the first time again there yeah but then you know when I think about it that's the reality for so many women at the moment too so if I by sharing my story that alleviates and creates a bigger understanding to all the other women still on the streets then it It does. It was something I had not thought about before as well, particularly those hours, perhaps, in the night. You said you never wanted to make a film about homelessness.

What changed? Lockdown. So I'd been asked quite a few times to make a film about homelessness and it never appealed to me. I think basically because it's appealed to me I think basically but you know because it's so um close to home and during lockdown I was feeling really anxious because I was what about you know all the people on the streets and then everyone was like oh don't worry it's sold we put them all in

hotels and for me so many people that I knew had been put in hostels or flats and it never lasted because they're the root cause of why they were on the streets wasn't dealt with. So addiction, a lot of people died or they lost the flats from not being able to keep up with the payments or not being able to look after it or themselves. So I knew that putting people in hotels was fantastic because it proved you could get people off the streets if you wanted to. But without any wraparound care, I knew it could be quite troublesome. And then Sam Roddick from the Roddick Foundation, Anita Roddick's daughter, reached out to me and said that

she had been in a conversation about making a film about homelessness and would it be something that I'd be interested in because for her it was really important. It was made by someone with lived experience. And at first I was like, absolutely no. But I can advise and I can help and we can continue to conversation. And eventually it was like, actually, you know what, we need to do this. But I don't want to make a film about homelessness. I want to make a film about how you end it. Because I know it's possible.

And you didn't want to be featured in the film either, but you do. And I think it gives us, well, another experience, another voice, another person who has come through it as well. How did you end up getting on the streets? So when I was, I'd had learning difficulties and troubles at school and I was bullied. And so I kind of was starting to slide through the nets when I was 13 um at 14 I started taking drugs with a lot of older kids from the estates and neighboring estates and and then I I was just a easy target for grooming got into gangs and burglaries and crime and um it kind of all caught up with me I was giving like fake names and it all seemed fun at the time when you're that young and then the police finally

found out and they managed to get my fingerprints from a lot of other crimes so it looked like I'd be you know when I went to court they were considering you know sending me to youth offenders and I had to come back for sentencing and some of the older guys were in their 20s were like we're doing a runner because they'd already been in prison and they knew they'd be sent back and they're like you should come with us we need to get out of here so I did and um you know a little while later I was dumped in a hostel um and I was I wasn't 16 so I had to give a fake name again and a fake age and then I could only stay there for so long

because they kept on saying that you can only stay here if you show us your NI card, your National Insurance card and we need to see proof of who you are. So that kind of fell apart quite quickly. But while staying in the hostel I'd become friends with some kids that hung around with some street kids that lived on the streets so they kind of took me under their wing and then as we heard with that clip some of the things that that you went through as well um but making this film you went back to some of the people that you knew from back in the day you did say that some of them had sadly passed but Darren

for example and I wonder what it's like to have come through it, but to still be able to understand so much. Somebody who looks to me as an outsider to be in such a different situation to you. Yeah. And I need to say that pretty much everyone died from when I was on the street. So it's only a few. And that's why I wanted the film to be about solutions. solutions um Darren for me is is an incredible soul and he represents where I would be if I hadn't had the support I had at the time I got off the streets and if I didn't have my mum um who you know amongst all of the problems that we had was an incredible um driving force and trying to get me clean and get me off there so but also vice versa Darren could be here right now talking about his latest film had you know so it's like this I could still be

there he could still be here um so it was really important that I gave a voice to people that are on the streets have been on the streets for a long time to show that you know Darren can and will have a normal life if he's given wraparound support because he's been on the streets for so long and he's survived so much. It's going to take a lot of support. But he has this magical brain and he writes so beautifully. And it's such an investment if we put that money into education,

wraparound care. So what is it? Because I want you to have just a couple of minutes to talk about those solutions i heard rough sleeping is just the tip of the iceberg emergency housing won't fix homelessness if you were to give your one minute pitch what is it that would work housing first 100 so meaning so it's we need to build more social housing that's the the biggest problem we have and that's not just for people who are sofa surfing single mums in hostels like I was for many years, people on the streets.

There is a whole load of people that are about to fall onto the streets over the next year. So not becoming homeless to begin with? Yes. So what we need to do is we've got this policy that that i put together with crisis shelter landing connection like all the major organizations and we we've with them as advisors we've come up with a set of policy asks that's on the website someone daughters someone's son um which are you know the things that we feel will help solve the housing crisis for homelessness first it's solve the housing crisis build more affordable it's solved the housing crisis build more affordable

homes social homes second one put in housing first models which is a wraparound care so you get people off the streets straight away you give them a home but you give them day-to-day support sometimes hour-to-hour support to help people with their mental health help them get them the right trauma therapy get them the right support so they can eventually go back and study, retrain and live a normal life, invest more money in education, NHS mental health support, drug addiction services. Now everyone's like, yeah, well, where do we get the money for that? And I'm like, oh, no, the money's there. And that was so important in the film that we had people like Dane Baroness Casey prove that it has been eradicated before and that these were the things that helped had people like dame baroness casey prove that it has been eradicated before

and that these were the things that helped do it sorry no sorry i'm just jumping in thinking of also what comes up in the film is they talk to points in finland as well and we're just talking about nordic countries and obviously there's taxes etc and various policies that are put in but but some of the success um that they had there um I think it's probably a hopeful message to think of, though. And I do want to let people know that your film is called Someone's Daughter, Someone's Son. This is filmmaker Lorna Tucker, who has been speaking. It's out tomorrow in cinemas.

So congratulations on that. And I do also want to say, if anybody listening has been affected by any of the issues that have been raised, that we've been chatting about, there are links to support on our website. Thanks for your calls on curls. In middle age, I've finally grown my hair to bum length, says Anonymous. I love it, but it's high maintenance and I clip it up and cover it. It's not allowed at work except for religious reasons.

We'll leave it there on Woman's Hour. Thanks for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I think the power of the show was crazy back then. The X Factor promised to turn ordinary people into pop stars. We stood there behind the doors when 16 million people are about to watch you go on stage. And Simon just stood next to you like

good luck girls good luck. I'm Chi Chi Zundu. For years I was a BBC showbiz journalist who covered every twist and turn. I want to go behind the scenes to find out from staff and contestants what it was like. You don't just want average people you wanted you know it was so bad they were comical. I feel like I was humiliated just want average people. You wanted, you know, it was so bad. They were comical. I feel like I was humiliated just for the entertainment. Did the show ever come back and they said to me, Sam, will you come on and do it again?

I'd be like, what time do you want me? Over six episodes, I'm looking back at the good and the bad of one of Britain's biggest TV shows. For BBC Radio 4, this is Offstage, Inside the X Factor. Listen on BBC Sounds. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

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