Woman's Hour - Raising the 'Sen-betweeners', Non-harassment orders, Clueless the musical

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

'Sen-betweeners' is the term Lisa Lloyd, a mum of two autistic children, uses to describe her kids. She says their neurodivergence is too severe to fit easily into mainstream school, but not really severe enough for special school, so they fall between the gaps. Lisa has written a guide for other parents on ‘Raising the Sen-betweeners,’ in which she, whilst recognising that all children are different and there can be no rules, offers tips and advice for how to handle behaviours. Lisa joins Anita to share what she has learnt.Amelia Price, a survivor of rape and assault by her ex-partner, has launched her own investigation into the Scottish justice system. Despite her attacker being convicted and sentenced to over four years in prison, the court refused to impose a non-harassment order (NHO) against him. With his release imminent, Price fears he could legally contact her. She has waived her anonymity to raise awareness about the issue and advocate for mandatory NHOs in domestic abuse cases. Anita speaks to her about her campaign alongside Fiona McMullen from ASSIST, a domestic abuse advocacy service. The beloved 1995 film Clueless, inspired by Jane Austen’s Emma, starred Alicia Silverstone, Paul Rudd, and the late Brittany Murphy. Cher Horowitz is the most popular student at Beverly Hills High, renowned for her unique talent at finding love for others. Clueless the Musical has just opened at the Trafalgar Theatre in London. Anita discusses the adaptation and the story’s enduring appeal with the original writer/director Amy Heckerling and multi-platinum singer-songwriter KT Tunstall who has written the score.

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. What's up daddy? What the hell is that? A dress. Says who? Calvin Klein.

Ew! Get off of me! Ugh! As if! I don't get it. Did my hair get flat? Did I stumble into some bad lighting? What's wrong with me? No prizes for guessing the iconic 90s movie. It was of course clueless. Well, it's now

been turned into a West End musical, written by the original writer and director of the film Amy Heckling and the music by none other than Katie Tunstall. Both Amy and Katie will be here to tell me all about it. Also we'll be looking at how often non-harassment orders are given in Scotland. These are known as restraining orders in England and Wales. And Lisa Lloyd is a mum of two autistic children who she describes as the send-betweeners. Their autism too severe for mainstream school but not severe enough for special schools. One of her kids is now in secondary and the other in primary and Lisa talks about how stressful her life feels at times and she's also written a book about her experience as a guide to help other parents

like her. Is this you? We would like to hear from you. If your child has special educational needs but like Lisa's children you feel they fall between the gap. How do you all cope when things get stressful? Do you have a support network? What helpful and totally unhelpful things have been said to you about your child? Remember you can remain anonymous. And indeed if you have a question for Lisa please feel free to send those to us too. Get in touch in the usual way the text number is 84844 you can WhatsApp the program on 03 700 100 444 you can also email us by going to our website and if you'd like to follow us on social media it's at BBC Woman's Hour but that text number once again 84844.

The first, a culture of fear and pervasive sexism. That's how British kitchens have been described in an open letter signed by 70 female chefs and hospitality professionals. The letter was written in response to comments from the Michelin starred chef Jason Atherton who said in an interview that he had not seen any sexism in any of the kitchens he'd worked in. He's since clarified his comments saying that he wasn't denying the existence of sexism, just that he hadn't witnessed it personally. Well, joining me now are two female chefs at the top of their game. Tara Klein, the founder of Tellier in London and

one of the two chefs who first decided to write the letter and Asma Khan, the founder of the all-female kitchen Darjeeling Express. Dara, Asma, welcome to Woman's Hour. I'm going to come to you first, Dara. What made you decide to write this letter and who signed it? Thank you for having me. So I'm part of a WhatsApp group of about 70 chefs that is incredibly supportive and there's a number of women really at the top of their game and following Jason's article on Monday there seemed to be a real desire to try and have our side of the conversation heard. I've been in restaurants since I was eight years old.

I grew up in my family's restaurant and I have a lot of love for hospitality. I've devoted my whole life to it. However, even though things are changing, we are moving to the positive. There is also a cultural shift that needs to happen across the board and a recognition of historical behavior that unfortunately still happens. And we banded together and the conversation was really flowing and an open letter seemed to be the most effective way to try and have our conversation, side of the conversation heard in this discussion. Well, what was the conversation that was flowing? I'm imagining what the what

messages were exploding on this WhatsApp group. Yeah, so essentially, we started to share our experiences. And they range from people talking about how delivery drivers and suppliers would always turn to, you know, male members of the team, rather than looking at us, to acknowledge the chef, right down to customer interactions with guests, where sometimes when they're very lovely and they want to pop into the kitchen to say thank you, the women get completely ignored.

And these are obviously very on the light end of the scale, right down to really, really sad and heartbreaking cases of sexual assault and a culture of bullying and pervasive sexism, right down to more visibility of women, female chefs in the media. There was a huge array of examples given. And some of them range from incredibly serious to anecdotal. And it touched on a massive cultural shift that we feel does need to happen. What's your own experience? So like I mentioned, from having suppliers as a business owner and as a head chef running the kitchen, having men acknowledge my kitchen porter

and completely ignoring me, to when I was a chef to party in restaurants, having owner operators of restaurants make really lewd comments to me, progression being sidetracked, I think, and overlooked, even though I've always been very ambitious and very hard working. Yeah, there is a sense that you have to work twice as hard to have your acknowledgement and have your work really taken and have your work really taken seriously and respected.

And obviously, there's a lot of change happening already and a number of male chefs and restaurateurs and hospitality individuals across the country who are committed to leveling the experience and hospitality, but we're trying to protect and safeguard our industry and make it appealing for young women coming into the industry. What's the reaction been to the letter? I would say 99.9% incredibly positive. And it's been, if I'm completely honest, incredibly overwhelming. I have had dozens and dozens of personal messages

on Instagram of people recounting their personal experiences, some of which are incredibly harrowing. And I would say quite recent, and saying thank you for speaking out. We've had an incredible response online. Obviously there's that 0.1% that is a completely opposing voice in the discussion, which is heartbreaking.

And how much support have you had from male colleagues? A lot, a lot. Like I said, I think the industry is full of men and individuals who are committed to reshaping kitchen culture. Because me personally, I think sexism is actually the tip of the iceberg. What we need to look at is how to make hospitality appealing to those who want to enter the industry. And as we all know, restaurants historically have been really hard places. And if you ask me, I don't think that is necessarily just historically. Kitchens and restaurants can be really, really hard. And that culture is not mandatory.

You can do things another way. Is that why you had already set up this WhatsApp group? Was it for solidarity? Yes. I wasn't actually the one who set up the group. That was set up by Sally Abbe of the PIM, very much for solidarity. But I think actually it was a very practical group to share context of electricians and plumbers and, you know, fridge maintenance workers and also to, you know, share the more difficult things that were happening day to day as well.

Asma, I'm going to bring you in because you've been talking about the issue of sexism in kitchens for a long time. In fact, you've spoken about it here on Woman's Hour. Did you sign the letter? Are you part of it? No, I wasn't even aware of the letter. Of course, you know, if I was aware of the letter, I would have signed it. But I think it's a great initiative and I'm so happy that they did the letter. And what was your reaction when you saw those comments from Jason Atherton to start with? I mean, I'm not surprised. The problem is that there is a kind of a lot of male chefs are tone deaf. They don't get it. They don't understand it. There is this poor communication in kitchens. And I understand it. I run a kitchen, so I understand that it can be a place where

it's hard to have, you know, small talk. But the culture, and I've spoken about this for absolute years, is very challenging because it becomes this kind of testosterone-driven, very macho space where there is, it's not just women who are at the receiving end, but it's also vulnerable men It's about all of us the hierarchy the way the system is set up. It really doesn't allow a Decent conversation. It doesn't allow people to feel they belong and when you Feel different you look different your accented Your female your older for whatever reason then you are really at the fringes of hospitality.

So what are the biggest issues then? Let me bring you back in, Dara, because actually when I was reading this about this this morning, what struck me is the Me Too movement happened a few years ago. I wonder what's different in hospitality. Maybe it isn't. I don't know. Maybe it just reflects culture in some way. But what is different? Why has it been harder for this conversation to happen in hospitality? That's for either of you. Asma? I think it's about women feeling that they will lose privilege. The silence, as I've always said, has been deafening. I said this at your show as well when I came some time ago. Women have kept quiet for too long because there's this fear that they will lose out and not get the kind of promotion they want. And the problem is that the silence hasn't got them anywhere

as yet. And I've always said that we need to speak up, we need to have the strength to believe. Even if you lose out, it is absolutely imperative because even, and I say this all the time, I'm speaking up for the girls who are not born yet. I'm sowing a harvest. I do not reap. I will not reap. But we do need to speak up. But there's been silence for too long.

It is very sporadic. And I think that we really need to kind of push harder. It is really this kind of loss of privilege. It's not just hospitality. It's why women kept quiet in Hollywood for so long. It is a real thing. You feel you're going to lose out. Yeah, the fear, Dara.

Exactly. Asma, you've articulated it perfectly. I think that there is such a lack of visibility of women, of women of colour. There is this, you know visibility of women, of women of color. There is this, you know, so many different intersections happening at the same time. And visibility both in the media and TV, film, but also in managerial positions. When you don't see yourself reflected, you know, now I'm a business owner. I'm about to open a restaurant. Obviously, I feel like I've got a good team behind me.

But when you're a commie chef and you're a CDP, and you see sometimes dozens of chefs in front of you who do not reflect you and your experience in the world, you don't see the future self in that position. And I think that there is such a pervasive culture of sexism in restaurants and in kitchens. And unfortunately, you know, it ranges from small behaviors that would be labeled as banter by, I'm sure, thousands of men across the country

down to outright sexual assault. And that's not a culture that can be overlooked any longer. I think there is such a desire to be heard and to share these stories that span, unfortunately, decades. And the heartbreaking thing is that it's still happening. There are those of us who are so committed to enacting change in our own businesses, but we need to re-level the playing field, so to speak. I'm sure there's not a woman listening who can't relate to that feeling of some sort of banter

being said around her, feeling awkward but feeling she can't say anything about it. Can only imagine what that's like when you're the only woman in a very intense kitchen environment. So Dara, you're about to open your own restaurant. What will you do differently? I think a lot of this comes down to training. It comes down to education. You know, we need to be making hospitality appeal to the younger generation and as an industry where they see their futures. Obviously, as a head chef, as a business owner, you set the culture. And that comes down to, you know, anti-sexism training, whether that's about really taking a look at the way that you hire and, you know, the employment practices, but, you know, really trying to build a holistic system that's going to be incredibly equal, you know, for all. And that, I don't quite have all the answers yet. But I've had a residency the last two years, and I safely say, you know, we had a very, you know, diverse kitchen.

Yeah. Also, it's not on you to have all the answers, I have to say, Dara. You know, it's not on the women to have all the answers all the time. Asma, what needs to change? I think what really needs to change is we need to understand that we need to work with men. There is a lot of men who are in hospitality today. They have been celebrated and applauded for being not so nice about women. And we have worshipped on that altar.

I mean, but as food media, television, in restaurants, we love the bad guys. And that is the problem, that people have allowed this to happen for so long. It really requires root and branch change in attitude. You know, if any of us who are on this conversation were as obnoxious to someone of another gender, sexuality, we would have a lot to answer. But the problem is they've been allowed to get away for so long. There's almost this kind of sense that they're invincible. And this is the real problem that no one has actually punished them. No one has questioned them They haven't lost any privileges

whereas I personally know women who complained about sexual harassment and lost their jobs and that is just absolutely frightening because you get punished for actually being the victim and This is a problem in hospitality today in a lot of other industries as well but I think a lot of industries are doing a lot better than us. We have a lot of catching up to do. Thank you both for speaking to me this morning Dara Klein and Asma Khan and we approached Jason Atherton for a statement we haven't heard back but in an article for The Standard he wrote what I can say is that I'm categorically and absolutely against sexism 100% and I will not tolerate it, it will not happen in my kitchens. And we did also ask Michelin for a response but they have yet to get back to us. 84844 maybe you want to

share your experience of working in hospitality or a kitchen then do get in touch. You can also email the programme by going to our website. Now, Cher Horowitz is the most popular student at Beverly Hills High. Renowned for her unique talent in finding love for others, she's about to embark on her biggest project yet, making over her awkward new friend Ty, setting her up with the most handsome boy in school. It's the plot for the beloved 1995 film Clueless, inspired by Jane Austen's Emma. It starred brilliant cast Alicia Silverstone, Paul Rudd and the late Brittany Murphy. Well 30 years on, I know it's one of those things that totally dates us doesn't it,

Clueless the musical has just opened at the Trafalgar Theatre in London with Emma Flynn in the leading role wearing the iconic yellow plaid suit. So what is the story's enduring appeal? Well I'm delighted to say I'm joined now by the original writer and director Amy Heckling and multi platinum singer-songwriter Katie Tunstall who's written the score. Welcome both of you, congratulations! Thank you. It's a West End musical and you two have done it. First of all that is such a huge deal so we need to just acknowledge that. How are you feeling? We're just to give ourselves a

little clap here over here. I can't believe it. I can't either. It's total pinch me. Yeah. You got you came up with the idea 30 years ago. It's Clueless, the original coming-of-age film set in the 1990s. Where did the original idea come from, Amy? Actually people keep asking me how come I wanted to adapt Emma, but really I didn't first think of that. I just wanted to do a very happy, optimistic character because that cracks me up. I just don't understand how people could go around feeling like that. I'm the opposite and so it was very easy to know all the things she'd be feeling because they're just the opposite of what I feel.

And then the more material I started to generate and feel about this person, the more I felt like, well, I need to find the plot, the skeleton, what it's all going to hang on. And I remembered that I read Emma in college and I reread it. But with this character in mind, it was like she was reading my mind. And every single thing from the early 1800s would just fit perfectly in the 1990s because her writing is universal and so that was that was the easy part. Tell us about Cher. Who is she? This eternally optimistic young woman.

Yeah she's very sure of herself and she's optimistic and she thinks things will go the right way, be the way she wants them to go and she's optimistic and she thinks things will go the right way, be the way she wants them to go and she's well-meaning. She's not, she can be trying to be pushing people around but she's trying to do them a favor by making their lives better but better in what she thinks they should want. It's a brilliant film, defined a generation and now you've got a younger generation who are equally as obsessed with it. Where did the idea for a musical come about? How did you envisage that?

It always felt like it wanted to sing when we were making the movie. And a lot of people would say, oh this should be a musical. Yeah, I know. In movies, sometimes in Hollywood, rom-coms especially have a lot of montages with like hit songs of the day and songs that just fit in and tell the story that you're trying to tell. And if you could get the rights to them, that's wonderful.

But it felt like there were specific things that wanted to be said. And you know, Katie and Glenn Slater have been geniuses at figuring out what that was, where it should sing, and just the right mood, the right feeling that gets you, you know, in the bouncy high... Out of your chair, singing along. Katie, I mean you've just mentioned there Amy that you know in a movie there's always a montage sequence with a song that gets you going and that was suddenly I see from your debut album was in the montage sequence of The Devil Wears Prada. So how did this project come about? So this one, I was working with Glenn Slater, who's just, like Amy said, just absolute genius. He's such a fantastic lyric writer. And when he writes lyrics, it's like the song exists

already. So he'll send me the lyrics and I'm like, oh, I can already hear this, because he's got such perfect rhyme and rhythm. So it's really, it's a really easy job for me to write music to his, um, to his lyrics. And we'd met on another project and he'd reached out and called and said, we're going to try and do some original song, you know, original score for this musical. And we got together, had a chat talking about how to approach it, because there's so many ways you could do this, you know.

And I was really happy when I found out that it was going to be bonafide in 90s, that we weren't leaving that era. So that was great. And then I think myself, Amy and Glenn, we're just all diehard indie kids forever, you know. We always want to know what people are making in garage studios on the outskirts of town, like always into sort of more unusual bands and music. But that's not Cher.

Well, it's not Cher, but at the same time, the soundtrack was so brilliant in the movie where it's not what you expect. It's Radiohead and Coolio and you know it's got and is it Supergrass who are on there? Yeah it's like they're not it's not like people who don't know the movie might expect kind of bubblegum pop on there and it's absolutely not. It's like the soundtrack that's you know playing in the background of Cher trying to kind of implement perfection in the world. And this music is actually pretty imperfect. It's kind of grungy and gritty, a lot of it. And so Glenn and I just sat down and basically went through our favourite hits

of the 90s. Oh, what fun. Oh, it was the most fun. I mean I'm talking we went everywhere, every genre. I'm talking I'm Too Sexy by Right's Head Fred. I'm talking you know Hand in My Pocket, Alanis Morissette and we decided a really great way of approaching the musical was really to have this kind of North Star playlist of songs that we wanted to kind of, you know, pay homage to in the musical. So there is a song, each song has its own kind of north star.

How involved were you Amy in the process of music? Well, Glenn and I had a lot of meetings before we got to this point about, you know, what the, where the songs would be and what they would be saying and what would be said in the dialogue and how to move the story forward, combining those two different, very different places of, is it stuff that you're going to say or is it come in the emotion of a song? And we all kind of figured that out and then we would go through lyrics and I would be like, you know, sort of trying to protect the characters if they wouldn't think this or say that and adjusting things but then he'd have like really wonderful funny ideas for things and we both love the same music so that was great and he had shown me well I knew of

Katie I loved her since the 90s. We all love Katie. Hey everyone, universally loved. I was just telling her when I first saw her on MTV you know with Black Sherry and the Horse I mean so anyhow and I went wow who was that because I had felt that with Eminem and Radiohead when I saw them the first time. And I went like... That is good company. Thank you, Amy.

You know, that's different. That's going to change things. That's a whole new style and moving things forward. And you've smashed it with the music on this. You mentioned that the original story is a loose update of Jane Austen from the 1800s, 1815. Did you have to update the musical from the 90s to now? We decided to set it in the 90s because I like the 90s and I'm not very happy right now with these days. So what do you mean by that?

Just what's going on in in my country and you know it just doesn't lend itself to, I know everybody makes jokes but I don't find it funny right now. Did you have to update any of it though to fit in with how times have changed? Not that much. I mean the things that were happening as far as like romances and the different cliques and the different things that people are into, either skateboarding or you know having parties in the valley and getting drunk and these things are Understandable today. It's fascinating isn't it how sort of 90s culture now Chuck Young the kind of generation What are they said Z? Just obsessed with it aren't they and this is pre telephones

Well, no, actually the telephone was very much for their telephones were definitely the flip phone the best scene where they're both talking to each Other on their phones then meet each other In high school, but yeah that you've got mums and teenage daughters who will be going to see this. Yeah, one of the most amazing things I think for us was when we were doing the workshop down in Bromley at the Churchill Theatre. It's these amazing processes where you are kind of tweaking every day and trying to make the show work and make it run and looking at where, you know, which points are kind of problematic. Even then, when audiences know they're coming to see Work in Progress, these young girls were dressing up as Sharon

Dion and we were just watching them come in in outfits and it was so cool. Did you enjoy the movie the first time around? Oh my, I mean, I just, I honestly, people ask me when the first time was, I saw the movie and I can't, it's one of those things that I can't remember not knowing it. And I was just so obsessed with America as a kid. I actually lived in the Valley. I don't know if you know that, Amy. I lived in Encino when I was four years old, in 1979 or something like that. Didn't you go to high school in Connecticut?

I did go to high school in Connecticut? I did go to high school in America, yeah. So I've always loved America and, you know, my generation as well growing up in the 80s, we were just obsessed with American stuff. And when Kim Wild's Kids in America came out, which is on the soundtrack, it was the first time I saw a female artist on Top of the Pops where I thought, I want to be her. You know, I liked, I loved Madonna, I loved Whitney Houston, but it never made me think I want to be a rock star, you know. And then when I saw Kim Wilde, I was like, she is so cool. I want

to be like her. She's still very cool. She was sitting in that chair not that long ago. Kim Wilde was here. I mean, fangirling. I love Kim Kim Wall. I met her on a plane once in my early career and it was like a cheap flight to Europe or something. She said, where are you going? I said, I'm going on holiday. And she said, please tell me you're going for two weeks. I said, no, I'm going for a week. And she said, trust me, babe, always go for two weeks. Great advice. I never forgot that advice. And I've never done it. I've only

ever taken a week. Amy whilst we've got you in the chair, we've got to ask you what it was like making this film back then, because there aren't that many women doing what you do, writing and directing, we've got to name check National Lampoon's European Vacation, Look Who's Talking as well, you know, big movies of their time. When you were making Clueless. How hard was it? Who wasn't it? It was hard to get it made. Everybody in Hollywood passed on it. They read the script, people going, I don't know what they're saying. They didn't understand the language and they didn't want to have another like girl project or if they they would say we have our girl project. there was like a limit on how much female material could be out there, or how many women could be doing a thing.

We have a director, a woman director on this other thing, so that's enough. And so that takes some sort of tenacity then to get it over the line eventually. Yeah, and a lot of that goes to my agent at the time, Kent Stovitz, who just would not give up on it. He just would keep banging and plugging away at it. And finally, Scott Rudin read it and he liked it. And everybody agreed that whatever he said was right. And suddenly there was a bidding war between these studios. And this is from like going, no, everybody says no,

to like, now we're fighting over who's going to pay the most for it. So Hollywood is kind of a fickle place. But we finally got it going and that was a lot of fun. And there's history yeah and you've survived not only that we now have the musical and we're delighted. Thank you both for coming in to talk to me Amy Heckling and Katie Tunstall and Clueless the musical is on stage now until the 14th of June. That's brilliant thank you. Thank you. 84844 is the number to text. Lots of you getting in touch about your children with special educational needs because we

will be talking to Lisa Lloyd who's written a book about her own children who she describes the send-betweeners who fall between the gap of not being severe enough to go to a special school but also having to be in mainstream education. Someone here has said we have a nine-year-old sem between us. She struggles to cope at school but they say there is not enough evidence to apply for an EHCP. It's a catch-22. It's isolating for us as being sociable is too risky. Often our home life feels unhappy and stressful. Thanks for shining a light on the difficulties we face. Lisa will be here to tell us about her experience in just a moment. But first, a woman who says she feels less safe today than the day her ex-partner was convicted of raping and assaulting her

has begun an investigation into the Scottish justice system. Amelia Price wanted to find out how often non-harassment orders were imposed by courts in Scotland after cases like hers which involved domestic abuse. In England and Wales these are known as restraining orders and in Northern Ireland as non-molestation orders all have the same effect to prevent someone contacting you and can also ensure they don't come within a certain distance of you. Amelia wanted one taken out against her attacker but the court refused. He's due to be released from prison later this year so could legally be able to contact her. She's waived her anonymity to highlight this issue and joins me now along with Fiona

McMullan from the organisation Assist which supports domestic abuse victims in Scotland. Good morning Amelia. Your attacker was jailed for more than four years in 2021. The judge could have imposed a non-harassment order at the time but it didn't. What does that mean for you? Good morning. Yeah that's correct. So in practical terms the refusal of the sentencing judge to grant the non-harassment order will mean that once my abusive sentence is considered spent or legal restrictions that have previously been sent to me from contacting me, it should be noted that includes by phone and online also, will become void. So to put it succinctly, what it means for me is that I'm left no more, if not less protected after guilt was proven and then I was awaiting the trial.

And I'm now advised at this stage that the only avenue I have to change that is to finance the civil non-harassment order, which will be likely to cost thousands. What reasons were you given for the order not being made? So as the offence in my case involved an abusive partner, the judge was actually obligated by law to consider imposing the non-passport order and had to give reasons to be decided to refuse it. So the reasons that were provided in my case were firstly that after bail had been granted, I had made the decision to relocate over the border in what I believe to be a temporary

safety measure awaiting trial. And the second was that he did not breach his bail conditions in relation to contacting me prior to his conviction. So I think that really gives you an idea of some of the entirely redundant reasons that judges can give to refuse protective orders. It seems very obvious to me that my location does not somehow make me immune to online contact, especially considering the fairly substantial evidence that was heard in my case that I thought outlined, you know, a well-documented history of the offender utilising social media to harass and humiliate me. That was ultimately the cornerstone that led to his conviction. So I think for the sentencing judge to still choose not to eliminate that risk if it was at his disposal to do so seems just so negligent to me.

And I think, you know, the idea that he didn't contact me on bail under the threat of being remanded in custody is not at all reflective of his behaviour without those conditions in place. And the idea that a judge is at liberty to ignore both the advice of a prosecuting advocate and also the information that I provided within my victim's statement just seems really difficult to accept. And so what it did was it led you to go off and do your own investigation and making a freedom of information request.

Tell us about this. Tell us why you decided to do that and what you found out. Yeah so I think when I first engaged with the justice system I assumed, like I imagine most people would, that these protections would be automatic on conviction and that for me was a really difficult preconception to challenge because the alternative felt so counterintuitive and it felt so unjust. So to some degree I wanted to understand if there was any possibility at all that my case could have been an anomaly or it could have been some kind of

unfortunate oversight. So I asked for information from the Scottish Government to understand out of those convicted for domestic abuse offence how many of those offenders were made subject to a non-harassment order in relation to their victim. Now, what the Freedom of Information Request revealed was not that my case was an anomaly, but actually in the financial year of 2023 to 2024, non-harassment orders were applied in just 38% of domestic abuse cases in Scotland. Now, that's despite the 2018 legislation that was introduced to safeguard victims and to ensure that protective measures aren't unduly refused. So in reality what it tells us is that reasons were invented

to refuse them in 60% of cases and it still seems very unclear on what basis judges are refusing them. I'm going to bring Fiona in here. Fiona with your work in assist you basically have to navigate the law for women that you support. Can you tell us what Scottish law says about non-harassment orders in sexual offence and domestic abuse cases? Absolutely. But first of all, I'd just like to acknowledge Amelia and her, you know, thank her for bringing this issue to the attention of many. Something that's been challenging us for many years and I'm always humbled by

victims who will use their experience to hopefully make things different for those to come behind them. So yes, the legislation came in and the spirit of the legislation would have suggested to us that where a victim is expressing a view that they want a non-harassment order, that that would be granted. And that part of the legislation was strongly advocated for by a number of victim services, acknowledging that the dynamics of abuse, the dynamics of sexual abuse are very distinct. It can often be a repeat crime. And victims have told us repeatedly that reporting to the police

does not always increase their safety. Attending court, concluding court does not mean that the abuse stops. It's a repeat crime. And also that in many, many cases at court, what is laid before the court is a fraction of the abuse that victims are experiencing in the relationship.

As an example, you might report that someone was shouting and swearing at you, your partner or ex-partner, causing you fear and alarm. And yet, actually, at the back of that is a different picture of risk in terms of the totality of the relationship. You might have experienced non-fatal strangulation, assaults, monitoring, jealous and controlling behaviour. That's not part of the case, but that is part of the victim's life and that would absolutely suggest to them that they would want that protection going forward. Are you surprised by what Amelia found that it's less than 40%?

Those figures should be shocking to all of us. Sadly, they're not shocking to me and they wouldn't be shocking to those of us in victim services in Scotland because we hear on a daily basis of victims that have been refused a non-harassment order for all sorts of reasons. So what we're saying to victims in Scotland is report your abuse and often they've managed that for a long time themselves before they've done that and they're usually doing that absolutely through fear and in need of protection. We're saying to them we'll protect you through the court case either via a remand or by special bail conditions, not to approach or contact you, not to come into your street or your home and then on the conclusion of the case we're saying we're no longer protecting you

and as Amelia said there is more work that then has to be done that the responsibility is on the victim to have to go down a civil route when in criminal court they could have been granted that non-harassment order it's absolutely unacceptable the figures are shocking. In England and Wales and in Northern Ireland in fact these orders aren't mandatory, is there a problem that by making it mandatory you could be restricting the liberty of someone considered rehabilitated and that they no longer these orders aren't mandatory. Is there a problem that by making it mandatory you could be restricting the liberty of someone considered rehabilitated and that they no longer pose a threat? That they've been through the justice system and... So one of the things to think about with a non-harassment order is it can run alongside

any other disposal. So it could run alongside a perpetrator program, an admonishment, a period of deferred sentence and complement that by offering that protection. In no way impacts on an offender unless their intention is to continue to harass a victim. It will ask them to stay away potentially from a small area, not to post on social media potentially or not to approach or contact the victim. If they aren't intending to do that, it has no impact on their day-to-day life. What I would say is the vast majority of cases

do not come with rehabilitation. They don't come with a custodial sentence that rehabilitates in any shape or form. And more often than not, the vast majority of cases will be disposed of in other means. So that protection is vital for victims. Amelia, do you have any other way to take out an order against your attacker? Yeah, so when I queried this with the Crown Office, because I wanted to understand why

if they were able to, they wouldn't have appealed on my behalf. And they informed me that they actually had no basis for appeal of decision in my case because from their perspective, the judge had not acted unlawfully. He was only acting in the discretion that's afforded to him by the law. So they instead suggest that rather deplorably that after already navigating the criminal court system that I should finance legal representation to seek a civil non-harassment order. So for me it just feels really beyond belief after years of aid in a Crown case and achieving a conviction which we know is by no means common. I'm now being asked to go back through

a civil court system for what I would consider to be a really basic protection measure against a man they've convicted and imprisoned more than three years after he was sentenced. So it may be different for the survivors that I don't have to speak for everyone, but for me, a custodial sentence was never the most important part of this. It wasn't the reason that I filed the report. It was much more about feeling protected. But what I know now is that the criminal court doesn't always offer that to victims. Well we approached the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service in Scotland which brings these cases and we were told we're committed to improving our services by carefully listening

to victims, witnesses and survivors. Scotland's prosecutors take domestic violence and sexual violence very seriously and urge anyone affected by this offending to report it. What's your response to that Amelia? It's difficult because for me I don't see the incentive for survivors to come forward to report the abuse they've suffered and also to endure the traumatisation of given evidence if they to find themselves no better protective to do and so. So I understand the sentiment and but I think that they need to look at prioritising protective measures for victims more so than punitive solutions and I hope that they will be as responsive and proactive in the rest of the experience of victims then defending their position.

Just to add to that Amelia I, I think, you know, absolutely resonates with what we hear every day from victims. They aren't looking for punishment, they are looking for protection, for belief, validation, protection, and for the offending behaviour to be addressed. And, and on harassment orders, a very basic tool to support that. Well Amelia Price, thank you so much for agreeing to talk to us and Fiona McMullan, thank you too. A spokesperson for the Judicial Office for Scotland said, in deciding whether or not to impose a non-harassment order, judges will carefully consider the Crown motion and any submissions made to the court by the defence as well as the particular facts and circumstances

of the case in question. 84844 is the number to text and if you feel that you need to email us, if you would like to share your own experience of anything you've heard this morning, then do go to our website. Now there's a phrase, when you've met one autistic child, you've met one autistic child. All children are unique. Well, Lisa Lloyd is the mum of two autistic children, one in primary school and one in secondary school, who she fondly labels as the SEN, Special Educational Needs, between us. Lisa describes them as being differently wired from other children, each with a neurodivergence, too severe for them to participate in mainstream education, but then again, each with a neurodivergence too severe for them to participate in mainstream education but then again each with a neurodivergence not severe enough for special school.

Lisa co-founded campaign group Send Reform England and she's now created a guide that she hopes will help parents like her. Lisa, welcome. Hello, thank you so much for having me on. I'm sorry I've got a bit of a cold. Don't worry, me too. We'll get through it together. Tell us about your children. How do they fall between the gaps? You describe them as the send between us. What does that mean? I do, I do, because they sort of don't fit anywhere, to be honest. So basically they're both autistic, both diagnosed. But you know, especially my son Finn, he was, he's academic, he's verbal

and he masked a lot of schools so he would you know sort of pretend he was okay, appear fine to the teachers and things, come home and have huge meltdowns and everything so nobody could actually see all the struggles that he had. So I call them the send-betweeners because they're the children basically that can't cope with mainstream but also don't have complex enough needs for a send school. So, you know, it's sort of where do these children fit? you know I've recently been diagnosed myself and obviously I recognized that I was one of those sent-betweeners now and if I'd had the right support and everything like that maybe school would have been different for me maybe the problems that I had

with jobs and things like that would have all been different. And you have a social media account which you you very funny. You make real lights of it and I think it's probably your way of kind of making people see lights in it and help people communicate what they're going through which is a very serious experience. You mentioned the word masking there, explain what that means. So basically it's pretending to be somebody you're not, it's you know desperately trying to fit the mould. From a very young age Finn would say to me that he felt weird and that you know he was different from all the other

children and you know he would try and sort of behave like them, try and blend into the background. Very quiet child, very well behaved, but he was often dismissed because of that, you know, because he wasn't disruptive and everything like that in the classroom and he slowly started to fail more and more with his school work and get behind. Whereas he'd started off school actually advanced for his age. He was a year ahead. So I could see everything that was going on, but I felt like I was screaming and nobody was listening because I was saying, you know, he needs help, he's struggling, but nobody could see it. And I'm not blaming the teachers at all because it's very difficult when you see a child that appears fine but

behind closed doors I knew he was riddled with anxiety, he didn't want to go in and that was only getting worse. So when did you first suspect that your son was not neurotypical? Well actually really early on, really early on as a baby he didn't like being cuddled so when he was crying and everything like that I used to have to lay him down on the floor to calm him down and strip him off to his nappy. You know I'd go to baby groups and the other mums would look horrified at this

mum that's not comforting her child but I would know that it would make him worse by cuddling him. He didn't meet the sort of social milestones so he wouldn't smile back, didn't point, didn't answer to his name. So it was quite early on that I started to see these signs and he got referred at the age of two. But because he was verbal and because he was meeting sort of academic milestones he wasn't actually diagnosed until four years later at the age of six. But when he was really little, when he was still a baby and you were suspecting that something wasn't, that there was something that baby, and you were suspecting that something wasn't... that there was something that wasn't quite right, but your husband, your partner didn't agree?

No. What was the conflict? What happened? He... Well, I had postnatal depression, so I put quite a bit of this in my book about this time, because it was an awful time, to be honest, and I didn't understand why I couldn't bond with my child and I had depression and everybody around me was saying he's fine, he'll catch up, it's normal, but I knew something was going on and unfortunately my husband, he didn't see it until he saw a horrific mount down at our friend's house and I think you know it started to dawn on him then that something was going on and we needed to get that referral because the problem is he wasn't around he wasn't at

the baby groups and things so he couldn't see how the other children were behaving. But you were. But I was and I was seeing there was something different there. You're brutally honest in the book about how tough it's all been for you and I think you have to be because you know who you're talking to. You're talking to people going through the same thing as you. But how much of a strain does it put on your daily life? You've got two children who are autistic. Yeah, a lot. You know, I look probably about 60. She doesn't look 60. Whatever 60 looks like, you don't. You're radiant.

You have to have a lot of patience. I mean you do with children anyway, but especially with children with additional needs, you need endless amounts of patience. You need to learn to pick your battles with things. But it's not actually the children that are the hardest part of everything, it's the whole world around us. You know, fighting for school places, fighting for EHCPs, judgment that you get from other people, from the general public, those are the main problems rather than actually our children. Can I ask you about one particular book, part in the book that really struck me

is when you had your daughter and she was still a baby and it might be difficult to talk about it I don't know but you wrote about it and you were so distraught that that day you decided to take your daughter to A&E and hand her to a stranger. Can you tell us what happened? Yeah, it was probably one of the worst times of my life actually. I probably will get a bit emotional talking about it. I was, I didn't know what else to do. She cried constantly and in that, at that time we were trying to get Finn diagnosed as well and her crying was setting off Finn with his meltdowns

because he couldn't take the noise. She wouldn't feed so she was losing weight and one night I just couldn't take it anymore and I drove her to A&E and I handed her over to the receptionist and I said take my baby because I cannot do this anymore and to hand over your child to a stranger is a really really difficult thing to do. But I knew there was no other options out there and I didn't know what else to do and I felt so alone and that is one of the reasons that I wanted to write this book so desperately is because I didn't want anybody to ever feel the way that I felt at that time. Sorry, I didn't want to cry on here.

You don't have to apologise at all. You do not have to apologise. What support network do you have? Obviously friends and family are incredible. I literally couldn't deal without them. And thankfully I've met some incredible friends online as well, people that get it. You know, my friends have got other autistic children themselves, some with high care needs, some like myself with low care needs, but you know we have so much in common in the way that our life is a little bit tougher. And you know, even

though our children are very different, we just understand it and there's no judgment there. Yeah, yeah. I'm just wondering, because you give so much to everybody and here you are writing a book to help people. I'm wondering who is giving you the same? I honestly, I do have that support from people, luckily. We're getting loads of messages in these. I'm going to read some of them out. I must say, I must mention, because some people listening may be quite impacted by what you're saying,

that there are support links on our website if you've been affected by anything you're hearing. And of course, it's important to say, please go to your GP and ask for help if you have an issue. A message here, I'm going to read a couple out and see what you think. It is isolating. There's not many people get it. Comparison with friends, children has been painful at times. My family didn't really accept my daughter's

autistic and don't ask her about how she is. Online support and connections with other mums going through similar difficulties has been a wonderful source of support and understanding, same as what you've just been saying. Another one here saying my my autistic daughter now 21 left school at 15, neither mainstream school nor specialist school worked for her. She now has no qualifications and is trying to find her way in the world. She wants a satisfying creative career but how will she get there? Another message here saying, my daughter is now 35 but we've struggled most of her life as she's autistic, dyspraxic and dyslexic

but she's not severe enough for a SENS school. But she's not severe enough to get support so it falls to us as parents to still support her as an adult. She finds retaining a job very difficult. It is and it's heartbreaking. This is the thing and so many of these children have the potential to do so well if they were given that correct support. Your eldest child left mainstream school for a special school eventually, how did that feel? So he's actually at what you'd class as an in-between school and this is what I wish there were more of. I talk about this a lot in the book because I could talk about this all day to you. But it's smaller classes, it's all designed around

autistic people, they do horse riding there, farming, swimming and it has just been amazing for him. He's made friends finally, he's actually enjoying school and wanting to go in and this is all we ever want for our children. You've written this book to connect with other people going through the same thing. You know, you've talked about the support network that you have and people are messaging in saying how important it is to finally have people who get it to talk to. But what would you say to people who don't get it? You know, you talk about going for dinner in your books and feeling judged because you give your child a screen. What would you like to say to people?

I just think people, I wish that people would be more understanding and realise that, you know, what they see on the outside, they may not have realised all the battles that you've had that morning in getting your child out of the house, getting dressed, brushing their teeth before you've even got to the restaurant. And I just think we need to be a bit more kinder in general with everybody until we've walked in their shoes. And I think to not assume, you know, there's a reason they're called hidden disabilities.

And, you know, they're still disabled. You know, even though they may not appear it, they're not in a wheelchair and things like that, we've still got to recognise that they've got struggles going on that you may not see from the outside. It's been a real pleasure speaking to you. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming in and joining us on the programme, Lisa Lloyd.

The book's called The Send Between Us. And I must say again, if you've been affected by anything that you've heard, please go to the BBC Action Line or consult with your GP about any issues you may be concerned about. And we asked the Department of Education for a statement and they said, the system we've inherited has been failing families with SEND children for far too long, this is unacceptable. That's why we set out our plan for change

to ensure no child is left behind. And just quickly, another message from you, I work on the SEND team in a mainstream school, we have so many children who would do better in a special school, but the places are scarce. Thank you for joining me on the programme. Join me tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Nicola Cochlin and for BBC Radio 4 this is history's youngest heroes. Rebellion,

risk and the radical power of youth. She thought, right, I'll just do it. She thought about others rather than herself. 12 stories of extraordinary young people from across history. There's a real sense of urgency in them. That resistance has to be mounted, it has to be mounted now. Subscribe to History's Youngest Heroes on BBC Sounds.