Woman's Hour - Rape Case Court Delays, Going Viral, Love and Money

Episode Date: March 30, 2023

New figures show that there is still a huge backlog of criminal cases waiting to get to court. And the worst delays are for rape and sexual offences. Reporter Melanie Abbott talks to a man who will wait 6 years after reporting he was raped in 2018, and the impact it has had on him and his mother who has been fighting to help him. We hear from Rape Crisis about their report Breaking Point, which shows a record high of sexual offence cases waiting to be heard, and outlines possible solutions for reducing them.Anita talks about women, money and love with the authors of a new self help book. Money and Love: An Intelligent Roadmap for Life’s Big Decisions, is written by two American women, Stanford professor emeritus Myra Strober, who is an early feminist economist and Abby Davisson, one of Myra's former pupils who is now a social innovation expert. They give detailed advice about navigating the crossroads of finances within a relationship at different life stages. Why does everyone want to go viral? And what happens when you do? Anita speaks to writer Julia Boggio who has managed to go viral three times in her life. One of which landed her on the Oprah Winfrey show. But, when Julia wanted to publish her debut novel, Shooters, she was told that she didn’t have enough followers on social media. So, she decided to take matters into her own hands and tried to get her book viral. And it worked. She tells Anita how she managed it.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Hanna Ward Studio Manager: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Morning all, welcome to the programme. Love and money, two huge aspects of life and today we'll be discussing how you manage both sensibly, especially when it comes to major life decisions. I'm going to be joined by two guests who've written a book with a very handy toolkit how you manage both sensibly, especially when it comes to major life decisions. I'm going to be joined by two guests who've written a book with a very handy toolkit to make you stop and think about how to negotiate and navigate these huge moments in your life. So this morning, I'd like to know when in your own lives have you had the hardest conversations about money?

And what were they about? And how did you deal with them? Moving in with your partner marriage child care going back to work earning more than your partner divorce bringing it all up today so get in touch with me are you someone who makes impulsive decisions or do you think rationally before these major life choices or maybe you didn't have a choice it's someone else make all the decisions for you. How did that work out? Get in touch with me in the usual way. You can text me 84844. You can email me through the website or you can WhatsApp me or leave me a voice note if you so fancy. 03700 100 444 is the number.

Also on the program, how you go viral. I'll be chatting to a woman who's done it not once, not twice, but three times. That text number once again, 84844. How have you navigated those big life decisions when it comes to love and money? Get in touch. But first, new figures just released this morning show that there is still a huge backlog in the Crown Courts. More than 62,000 outstanding cases. This is a slight drop from the previous figures, but according to Rape Crisis, those involving sexual offences are waiting the longest. We're highlighting one of those cases this morning. It's unusual because it's a man with a complaint of rape. Just to remind you of the figures, one in four women have been raped or

sexually assaulted, and it's one in 20 men. Now it's not due to go to court until May 2024 by which time he'll have waited six years. Well our reporter Melanie Abbott has been looking into this and is with me this morning. Morning Melanie. Morning. First of all let's talk about the figures out today. What do they tell us? Yeah so the backlog for overall cases currently stands at 62,440. These figures cover October to December 2022. And there has been a small reduction of 1% from the figures for last summer. But, and this is the important thing, more than a quarter of those cases have been waiting for a year or more.

And of those cases, more than 8,000 involved sexual offences and 2,040 were adult rape cases and worryingly that is an increase of 9%. Now amongst those stats there are some pretty alarming stories like Mike who you mentioned who reported being raped in 2018 and will be waiting years to get an outcome even though he's been to court twice already. As you'll hear in this interview I did with him and his mother, Annie, they have been fighting to get this case heard more quickly. Now, that's not their real names. For legal reasons, we can't identify them. So their words are spoken by actors.

It just feels like forever, the waiting. Sort of stuck in limbo the whole time just waiting for your your day in court it's really difficult you know the next date that is set now is still another sort of roughly 18 months away from now which is a really really long time um and it's just something that sits in the back of your mind all the time covid affected everybody and that's something that i can understand and live with but you know by the time i'm next in court it will have been six years nearly since I first reported it. It's just absolutely crazy. No trial should take that long. I imagine when you did report it that you never envisaged that it would still be dragging on until now and still very much unresolved.

I didn't ever imagine that it would drag on this long. And to be told directly by the police to not have counselling or any form of therapy until the court case is over, which at first I thought that's OK because it'll be over soon and I'll be able to put it in the past. And it'll put me in a better position to have therapy and counselling and deal with it but now it's been years and years where I've not been able to talk about this to anyone other than the police. There is a fear that therapy notes will be accessed and could be used by the defence. Yeah which which is a really, really horrible, yeah, a really horrible position to be in because it leaves you stuck in limbo. And, you know, you feel very alone when there's nobody, you know, you can speak to

family and friends in confidence maybe, but not everyone's as lucky as me to have a good support network. Your mum, Annie, is here with us too. Annie, what's it been like supporting Mike through this? Traumatic. It really has. I feel quite emotional even just talking now. I don't think anybody can prepare you for the journey as a family we've been on over the last four years. I'm watching the trauma and the hurt from my son. It's just been

awful. And I do feel that we've been treated more like the perpetrators than we're the victims and that's been tough. I think I've probably aged about 20 years, you know, mentally and physically. I've suffered illness really. It's taken me four years just to get, mentally and physically. I've suffered illness, really. It's taken me four years just to get to the point now where I can talk about it more openly without, you know, crying. Yeah, it's just been so, so hard. Mike, there has been two trials. Can you perhaps tell us a little bit about what happened at the first trial? It was hard because, you know, I'd waited and waited and waited for my day in court, imagining how it might go, what might say and all this stuff. And it finally happened and I felt a big relief after.

To then only find out that it was only going to be discounted and I'd have to wait another you know another 18 months or so until another trial could happen I felt like that weight that was lifted was suddenly dropped straight back on me from a great height and it was you know unexpected trying to tell a room full of people about by far the most traumatic thing that's ever happened to you is really really difficult and then thinking I finally managed to brave my way through it and my part was over and then suddenly to be told oh no sorry but that's all going to be discounted and you're going to have to you know you're going to have to go through the whole process again from the beginning it was a really hard pill to swallow it really really badly affected me mentally really badly. Legally we can't go into the reasons why that trial was adjourned but Annie

what was your reaction when that happened? I fell apart literally I fell apart watching what I was doing to my son my family I was in utter disbelief I just couldn't believe what I was hearing. We were halfway through the trial when it was stopped and to me it's just beyond cruel. They're making my son stand up in court yet again and relive that trauma for a second time. I couldn't work. I had to give my job up. But I had to remain strong for my children.

I was mum. I used to lie awake at night worrying and sleep. It was hell. And I spent the best part of six months trying to fight the process, reaching out for any help that I could get to try and get it all back in court so we didn't have to wait for another 18 months. And how far did you get with that? I got nowhere. So we had to wait for 18 months to go back to court and Mike had to relive the whole thing. And knowing that he would have to do that, what did that do to you? As a mum, all you ever want to do is protect your child.

I don't think anybody really, truly understands until something like this has touched your family, the pain that it causes. And knowing that I can't do anything about it. I can't protect him. I can't stop the process. I just felt helpless, completely helpless. I felt really angry. Why? Why is this allowed to happen? How worried were you about the impact on your son? I was torment. You know, I knew my son was spiralling downwards. I knew that he was struggling. I didn't know how to stop it. I was worried sick. And I just feel so lucky that he's here today working and getting through it. I'm really, really proud of him. Immensely proud. Mike, were there really, really dark times? Yeah, for sure.

It was really hard to put into words, to be honest, how the whole process... It just really, really extended the trauma and just made it worse. There were so many insensitivities insensitive moments you know when I actually got walked through the courtroom and they opened the door and it was a mistake on their part but he was stood there in front of me as we opened the door and they didn't know and they sort of just brushed it off just walked me past him as if it didn't happen.

But for me, that was the first time I happened to face him, you know, my worst nightmare. And, you know, that still haunts me to this day. It was really terrifying. And this was before I could even give my evidence, you know, I felt so truly intimidated, it was a really, really horrible experience, and knowing I was going to have to live like that for another 18 months, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't cope, I did contemplate ending my life, and you know, some really horrible thoughts were going through my mind because I'd been fighting and fighting and fighting to make it to that day in court.

It was like they just ripped it all away from me. I genuinely didn't think that I was capable of going through it, going through it all again. It took so much energy to get there in the first place. You know, there wasn't a whole lot of apologies or personal, you know, any sort of feelings involved. It was just, that's that. Deal with it or don't. If you want to drop it, you can drop it. I'm glad you're in a better place now.

There was a second trial that was also adjourned. Yeah, and all I can do at this point is laugh, because if not, I'll certainly cry. What happened the first time round happened, and I didn't think I could cope with it, but I did. So there was not a chance in hell in my head. The possibility didn't even cross my mind that that same thing would happen again,

and it would be cancelled again. To be honest, I just think at that point that day was when the few shreds of respect I had left for our justice system, that was when they were gone completely. I just lost all faith and all hope. Did you get to the point of giving evidence again? Yeah, I had to give evidence again. It felt like I was doing something that I shouldn't have been doing,

like I was hurting myself for no reason, you know, dragging myself through these memories yet again. Annie, as a mother, what was it like having to watch your son, Mike, give evidence both those times? It was just painful beyond words. Seeing him go in and knowing that he was going to be having to go through all that trauma again, and there was nothing I could do about it. I think it made me ill. Yeah, it was. It was very emotional. The hours that he was in there being questioned felt like days. As I'm in that waiting room, just waiting for him to come out to make sure that he's OK.

And how has this impacted him again? When he was in the witness box? When he was in the witness box. I think I must have covered a million steps. I paced around and around, just waiting for him to come out, willing him to be okay. What can you remember about what he was like when he'd finished giving evidence for the second time? He was grey and I just hugged him and said, are you okay? That was another very, very, very long, painful afternoon. Then another adjournment. What reasons have you been given for the long delay now

for this to go to court for a third time? They have no excuses. All they tell you is we're sorry, we know it's a long time, but that's just the way the justice system is at the moment. Do you get any indication that they are trying to expedite cases like this that are so sensitive and so difficult? They claim they are and they claim I am the highest priority on the list and I've been moved as far forward as you possibly can be moved on the list which to me is really unsettling because if I've got to wait nearly six years, how long is it taking on a smaller crime? You talked about those dark times. Are you confident that they're behind you now and you can stay strong for the next 18 months? I'm not at all. Now, it's something that I live with every day, every single day,

and it's something that is always in the back of my mind. I feel like my suffering is being prolonged. I've had to wait and wait and wait some more, and it just feels like I'm living my life in limbo. Do you ever think about dropping the case now? I think about it a lot. But I'm at the point now, I've come this far, the time it is taking is just wrong. Annie, as a sitting there listening to your son say that he

still has dark times, that must be really hard for you. Yeah, very. I can't even begin to imagine the thoughts that my son has. I am grateful every single day that I hear from him on the phone. If I do hear from him, that he's okay, he's actually able to work. It leaves me... Yeah, sorry, I'm quite emotional. You know, we have children to love them and to protect them at all costs. And I haven't been able to do that. And the justice system seems to be making it so very,

very hard on him. It's almost like he's the one being punished, which just feels cruel and wrong. And all I can do is just keep being there and keep loving him and keep supporting him. And I will never, ever not be there to do that. You know, he's my big boy. What do you think it says about the justice system, this delay? I think it's really broken. Until we were in a situation where we had to become a part of the justice system, I had no idea. I've never stepped inside a courtroom.

I didn't really understand anything about courts because I'd never had to. But I believed, I think, that the justice system was good and I thought it was the right thing to go to court. But there's a big part of me now that questions, did we do the right thing? I have very, very little faith now in the system because of what we've experienced and what we've gone through. And I'm terrified of getting back for a third time, absolutely terrified because of what it might do to my son. Do you ever think, no, let's stop, let's walk away? I have done.

When I saw how grey my son looked having walked out of that courtroom and seeing what he's doing to him, there was a moment where I thought, no more, we can't keep doing this. But this isn't about me. This has to be what's right for Mike. And he is the important person in all of this.

And I will stand by him and do whatever he thinks is right. Annie there talking about supporting her son. A very moving interview voiced up by actors there. Mel, let's remind people of those figures. 62,440 is the backlog of cases at the Crown Courts. What has the government said about this backlog? Yeah, the government, we did ask them to send, to provide a minister to

come on live. We were told no one was available, but they did send us a statement. And it says the number of rape cases reaching court has more than doubled in the last three years, as we continue to tackle the backlog following the pandemic and barrister strikes. Today's figures show that our measures, including lifting the cap on the number of days courts can sit and recruiting more judges, are working to give victims the justice they deserve. Now, we also contacted the police involved in this case. They said they couldn't comment on specifics but do have specialist officers working with victims of sexual offences, regardless of when they took place, who do understand the complexities and sensitivities

and work diligently to ensure victims receive the support they need. OK, what about the Crown Prosecution Service? Well, court delays are somewhat out of their control. Now, I did speak to someone within the service anonymously who told me that one problem for them, and this has been reported, is finding enough experienced prosecution barristers. And they did say that for those dealing within the CPS with those who are reporting sexual offences, it is very worrying, and they can see that these delays are causing real distress.

Okay, Mel, thank you. Well, these stats come just a few days after Rape Crisis published a damning report called Breaking Point. Amelia Handy, Head of Policy and Public Affairs at Rape Crisis, has been listening and joins me in the studio. Firstly, Amelia, I'm going to get your reaction to what you've heard. The adult rape cases have gone up by 9%. Yes, and I think really this data shows that rape and sexual abuse survivors are always at the thin end of the wedge in terms of how their cases are treated by the justice system as a whole, but particularly now and whilst they wait for trial. And we know we've called the report Breaking Points, not only because victims and survivors have explained

that they feel so traumatised and so stressed and that anticipation of the trial for it only then to be changed and delayed for perhaps many, many months or years, even over a year in Mike's case, as we heard. That essentially, it leads them to feeling like they are mentally and psychologically at breaking point. Collating the case studies for the reports that we made, we were really struck by the high references, the high levels of suicide attempts, which is absolutely devastating. And I wanted to actually share the case of Maria.

She was raped as a girl and she tried to end her life and she has life-changing injuries as a result of that suicide attempt which came just following after a call from her witness care unit informing her that her case will be moved yet again and a whole year later she was being asked to wait. So not unusual for trials to be delayed and the consequences are hugely impacting on the victims. What are the reasons for some of the delays? What do we know? Why are they being caused? So there is a range of issues that all link back really to under-resourcing of the criminal legal profession. So there's currently a shortage of criminal barristers and therefore there's a shortage of judges as a result of that pipeline

not being filled essentially. Why is there a shortage of criminal barristers? That shortage really is indicative of poor working conditions, vast work, vast caseloads, and really kind of a demoralising experience of doing the work and that specialism not being acknowledged or being remunerated. And there's also that those delays are also due to listing and scheduling issues, which sound like an administrative kind of function. But actually, it's really, it's a really important point, because essentially, if judges and listing officers in the courts are trying to predict how long cases are going to take in order to schedule them in, but if there's a shortage of barristers and judges, essentially, what they tend to do is

double book in case one of the trials collapses, or there's an early guilty plea. So essentially, you end up having legal professionals double booked and then trials and having to be delayed at the last minute because you can't be in two places at once. And then an additional quite ridiculous situation that we're currently in is that there are courts, despite this enormous backlog, there are courts despite this enormous backlog there are courts laying empty laying idle and that is not because there aren't enough sitting days funded sitting days have now been increased by the government which was welcomed but there's just simply not the staff now to actually you know take those trials on in those courts so it is a really sorry state of affairs. The government has said it will keep the 24 temporary courts open during the coronavirus pandemic,

the Nightingale courts for another year, and it's investing £477 million over the next three years to tackle the backlog. Are you hopeful about that? It's always encouraging to hear that there's going to be additional resource and incentive to work through that backlog. But I think we need to think about that specificity of rape and sexual abuse and those cases and that they're particularly traumatic and at the moment they are waiting the longest you know there is something very inside out about that and essentially we're calling for these cases to be fast-tracked

so they should have a guaranteed fixed date and time so that they know when when their trial is going to take place and essentially that needs to be pursued really with quite a lot of urgency and at the moment we do fear that the current ambition of 53 000 cases in the backlog by march 2025 is actually just simply not good enough for the most vulnerable victims and witnesses, such as rape survivors. I want to get your recommendations, what rape crises are making to the government, but I just want to clarify that we did ask for a minister to come on the programme, but we're told no one was available

to speak to us about these figures live on the programme. So, yes, what are your recommendations? Yes, so we're recommending that there is a swift establishment of specialist rape and sexual offence courts and that in these courts that there is pilots in areas where there's particularly egregious backlogs. We're suggesting that there would be a pilot of judge-only trials which are more economical and would be more timely.

We're also asking that there be a guarantee, a guarantee of date and time, so a fixed date and time for rape and sexual offences. We're also asking that actually key support workers of rape survivors are actually admitted into court, as they should be, which they're currently often not, often barred from doing that. And then we're also asking for those really kind of practical things like,

you know, as we heard from Mike's case, it should have never happened that he, you know, bumped into the perpetrator. That should never, ever happen. There should be proper risk assessments. Well, when we were listening to that, you actually said this is the sort of thing we were hearing about 20 years ago. So nothing has changed in 20 years.

Yeah, it is really depressing. Yeah, essentially this has been talked about for quite some quite some time many decades and further i would say there is um also floater trials which are trials without any fixed date whatsoever and that has increased really significantly in the last two years and that again 20 years ago they're saying this they should not be um you know listing cases as floated trials for rape and sexual abuse cases because of how traumatic they are and because of that impact on the victims and survivors. The Ministry of Justice has seen this report and told us we know more needs to be done so victims have confidence and feel supported, which is why we've quadrupled funding for victim services, enabled them to pre-record court evidence earlier and away from defendants, and launched a 24-7 helpline with yourselves, Rape Crisis. Yes.

How reassuring is that? I think what we really need to see is a very, very strategic, kind of cross-criminal justice agency strategy from government to ensure that, for example, when the CPS increase, police and CPS investigate and increase their charging, that that court capacity is able to deal with the increased caseloads that are coming through. So it has to be done really strategically. Of course, more funding is always welcomed. In terms of the 24-7 support line hosted by rate crisis um you know i would like to sort of finish

up by saying you know we're we're here for you um it is a 24 7 helpline you can phone and and you can also use a web chat function um amelia handy thank you very much as well and to you as well melanie abbott thank you very much and if you do want to um find that number out we'll make sure we put the details up on our website 84844 is the number to text if you want to get in touch with us about anything you're hearing on the programme. Now, on Tuesday, we revealed the Women's Hour Power List 2023, showcasing the 30 most remarkable women in sport in the UK right now. And coming in at number one on that list is the England football captain who took the Lionesses to victory at the Euros in 2022. Nuala delivered the news to Leah at the Arsenal training ground and they got talking

about Leah's mum who's been a huge support take a listen. She just knows me in a way that you know woman to woman mother to daughter um she's known when when I've been vulnerable and she kind of knows how to support me off the back of that um she's always taught me to be humble she's always taught me to be be inquisitive and sort of search for for new information all the time so I think that's maybe one of my greatest strengths uh sort of trying to be a sponge and taking as much as I can to just continue to try and be better so I think that's I owe that to her for sure and you talk about what your heart tries to hide what's that I think you know sometimes in the nature of what I do and how competitive stressful it can be

sometimes and you know you're under constant review and to manage those emotions within yourself whilst also trying to live life you know I have a life outside of sport as well and I think when I when I go back into that world she can just sometimes see if if I am struggling or you know things that we maybe wouldn't vocalize that easily and even if we don't talk about it I think she knows how to to pull me out of those those times when I'm just a little bit in my own head. Leah Williamson there, England football captain who tops the Women's Hour Power List 2023. And if you missed that special broadcast from the radio theatre, you can catch up with it on BBC Sounds now under the 28th of March. Now on to my next subject. Lots of you have been getting in touch about this.

I'll be reading out some of your messages in a moment. Something that affects us all, well I hope it does anyway, money and love. Specifically what you should be thinking about as a woman when you're starting out in a relationship or taking some of life's big decisions such as moving in together, maybe sharing an account, getting married, having kids. And what about later if you're getting divorced or planning to retire? Well I'm delighted to be joined in the studio now by two women who are experts in this field. It's fair to say they're at different stages of their lives. They come with a whole load of experience. Myra Stroba is a professor emerita at Stanford in America.

She was an early feminist economist and has written widely about the issues, particularly to women in their working life. And Abby Davidson is one of her former pupils, who is now a social innovation expert. And together they've written Money and Love, an intelligent roadmap for life's big decisions, which we're going to be talking about. Welcome to both of you. Welcome to Women's Hour. Firstly, Abby, I've got to ask, what is a social innovation expert? I'm not sure we have those over here. Well, I like to make things in society

better. So just trying to improve the world. Excellent. That sounds like a great job to have. Very good. Very important. It's great how the two of you first met to collaborate on this book. You're both bringing different perspectives to the table because of your age and experience. That is fair to say, isn't it, Myra? Yes. I taught a course at Stanford for almost 50 years. First, it was called Women in Work, and then changed the name to Work and Family when more men started taking the class. And Abby was one of the students in that class in 2008. Abby, as well as the man she eventually married. And so for years I had them come back and talk to the class because they were having the real live experiences now of raising two kids

and having two demanding careers. And then when I retired in 2018, I told Abby that I wanted to write a book about the course. And we had lunch a couple of years later. And she said to me, how's the book going? And I said, Oh, I haven't written a word. And she said, you need an accountability partner. And I looked at her and I said, no, I need a co-author. Brilliant. And so that's when we started working together. And so the class was so good, you went back for more, basically.

Let's talk about the book. Because it's basically, the key point I've picked up from reading it is that you talk about money and you talk about love and the two are intertwined. And that's very important for people to understand at the off. They are. And the conventional wisdom is that we should separate the two topics. We should think about relationship decisions with our hearts. We should think about financial decisions with our heads and never let one get in the way of the other. And that's just very flawed because all of life's biggest decisions that you just mentioned involve both money and love. And if you ignore one,

you're missing a huge part of the picture and you're more likely to make a decision that you regret. So you start by coming up with something called the five C's. It's very useful. It's very handy for people who have been impulsive. I'm not saying, I'm just asking for a friend. The five C's, they stand for clarify, communicate, choices, check-in and consequences. Explain what that's all about. So the research says that people make decisions that are really important decisions too quickly. They feel uncomfortable having to make the decision, and they would like to get the decision off their plate as soon as possible. And so really what the five C's does is give you a framework for slowing down this decision-making process. So clarify, that's the first. Figure out what it is you really want.

Figure out what it is you really want, not what your parents want, not what your friends want, not what your children want, but what you really want. And that's often a hard job. The next is communicate that to your partner or whoever else is involved in this decision. And we see clarify and communicate as a kind of dance. First you clarify, then you communicate. Then your partner clarifies and communicate. Then you dance some more. And so this slows down the decision-making process. And then you're into the choices part, which is all about not getting into the tunnel vision that we sometimes get when we see the two extremes, right?

Do I either marry this person or break up with them? Do I go for the promotion or do I quit my job? The truth is, there are so many places in between. And when you are able to be creative and generate more options, that's more when you're likely to get to an option that is, well, better suited to you. And that's where the check-in point comes in, which is check in with friends, family, and trusted resources that can help you get the perspective that they've had, having gone through the decision, generate more choices, and then, particularly here in the UK, because we find students than, let's say, students from Pakistan or India or South America. And yet, despite all the differences, they all had the same decisions that needed to be made. And so it might have been harder for Brits to take the plunge and have uncomfortable conversations before you're ready.

But it wasn't exactly easy for Americans either. So I would say there's not that much difference. Because it's what couples argue about the most. But interestingly, it's the thing that they feel most uncomfortable talking about. Why is that? Why do we find it so difficult to talk about money? Well, we don't have models for how to do it, right? We see movies, we see all of these examples before us of the romanticized version of relationships.

And you're planning a wedding, you're doing all of the wonderful parts, right? You're not sitting down on a first date and revealing your educational debt to each other. There's no spreadsheet involved when he's sweeping you or she's sweeping you off your feet. Right. But one of the reasons Myra's class was so powerful for me is that I took it with my boyfriend at the time. We had been dating for less than a year, but we were about to graduate.

We had to make decisions about whether we were going to look for jobs in the same city, if we're going to move in together, if we ended up in the same city. And we were forced to have the uncomfortable conversations with Myra's prompting. Abby, you're a real life case study. I really am. So you were living it and breathing it. Absolutely. So let's talk about you personally then. What kind of what came up in the in the lectures and how did that influence your decision making? Well, one of the statistics that Myra shared in her class, because as a labor economist, there were a lot of statistics and data in the class, was that couples who live together before getting married have higher divorce rates. And that is very counterintuitive. It was not a situation we wanted to end up in. And so we did

our final paper for the class, all about why that is and how you can avoid it. And it turns out you can avoid that fate with one word, which is intentionality. So if you go into... Explain, explain more. We're all, I'm taking notes. We're all paying attention. If you go into your cohabitation with an intentional approach, discussing, for example, will you each contribute to the rent in a similar way? What if somebody earns more?

Would they pay more? My husband, my boyfriend at the time was going into the world of finance. I was going to work for an NGO after graduation. We were making wildly different salaries. So one of the things we discussed is how would we combine our finances in a way that felt equitable to both of us, in a way that felt different from when we were not living together, but also different from when we got engaged and when we got married. And so we wrote our final paper as our blueprint for the plan that we would follow for the next, it's now been 15 years since I took the course.

No wonder she went to the top of the class and came back to write this book with you. It's all, which is great, absolutely great. But you are, to be fair, the two of you were taking this class and you had the brilliant Myra who was coaching you through this. What if we don't have these tools? What if we don't have them innately? What if we haven't seen them? Our parents do it. What if you just have lived your life by making decisions on a whim or by following your heart over your head? How can you train yourself? have some worksheets at the end of every chapter for you and whoever else is in this with you to practice. One of the things that was most interesting in my class was an exercise to bargain with your prospective spouse about housework. And the most exciting thing for most people in the class was to see

how much housework there is. Most people who are still students have no idea what running a home is like. And so, oh my goodness, we have to divide taking the children to school in the morning. Yes, you do. And so we help you in the book to begin living in a different way. And it's all transformative, truly. We've talked about the division of labor within the home a lot on Women's Hour, particularly during lockdown, as I'm sure you're aware, because actually the roles reverted. And it tended to be women who were doing the bulk of the housework as well as holding down their own jobs. What's your thought about that? Well, you know, under tense situations, people revert to what they saw as children.

And most of us saw our mothers doing a lot more housework than our fathers, a lot more. And although that has changed now, and I'm hoping that since the pandemic is over, it will go back a bit to the way it was before. People did tend to rely on old patterns. We've had lots of people get in touch with about this subject someone anonymous has written in to say one of the most difficult decisions i had was negotiating with my partner that he should pay into my pension at the same total amount as his his contributions plus his employers to while i while i was on maternity leave i'm a freelancer so i'm responsible for my own pension payments and didn't get maternity pay i didn't see why his contributions should remain the same while mine would go to zero for 12 months. He was shocked,

but understanding. And that was the agreement we had while I was working. I find that really interesting because it would have taken a lot to bring that up with your partner to even have that conversation. I love that example. And I love that A, she recognized that this was the situation. B, was transparent with her partner about, well, my being on maternity leave is providing value to the family. Why should I be financially penalized while you get to contribute to your pension the whole time while I'm caring for our child? And that they had the conversation about it, even though it didn't occur to him, he agreed. So this is actually a wonderful example of what we talk about in the book. How do you get over cultural conditioning, though? How do you get

over that idea for both men and women approaching men who may be earning more to say, you know what, is this fair? You know, should you have all the power? I mean, just how do you get over that first hurdle? Well, ideally, you're having these uncomfortable conversations before you've committed to spend the rest of your life with this person. married change the relationship that they've had just by bringing up the topic and saying, we need to take a nice long walk somewhere. I have something I want to talk to you about that we have never talked about before. That kind of gets their interest. And then off you go. And don't think about this as a one-time conversation. This is a long dance. And you need to keep listening to your partner's reactions and keep being gentle with your partner if you want to change what's been happening for a long period of time. So, yeah, take it easy easy but be persistent and one of the reasons we wrote the book is to not have

this be the best kept secret of only the students who are fortunate enough to take my risk class we think that so many more people could benefit from this approach and this information and so you could even say i heard these authors on women's hour this morning and i'd love to bring this up this is something we think anyone can start at any time. I think that is going to happen. There's something which can cause tension in a relationship is the difference in earnings. Unless of course you're Chris who's emailed in to say me and my partner got together when we had no money. She was building a business at the time I was teaching piano and doing some gigs in bands. Her business has become really successful. She and her business partner employ 105 staff. Wow she's done amazingly. Whilst all this was going on, we started having babies.

So I look after them and she gets the money in. We share everything, which works well because neither of us really want anything other than health and happy kids. So we never have an issue with each of us spending the family's money. I'm too tight to want to buy stuff anyway. On the rare occasions she buys things, I just think she deserves whatever she wants. I suppose it's easy for me to share everything as I bring nothing financially to the table. That's working well. But how do you navigate the difference in earning, particularly if maybe the woman is earning more. And more and more find that they're earning approximately equally. And as long as you're both comfortable with the arrangements you have, in the case you just read about, you know, having a dad care for children is relatively unusual, but becoming more and more usual. You're both

comfortable and you both can talk about how you feel about it. If one of you gets uncomfortable, let's hear about it. Don't bury it until it becomes a major issue. So this is another message that's come in and it is an uncomfortable one. The most difficult conversation was returning to work after my first child i had the i had recently won right to a year of maternity leave but my husband husband was adamant we couldn't afford the second six months we couldn't risk any more mortgage or debt but most of all he felt his small extension meant i would never go back to work those two to three months taking her to nursery and me going to work both sobbing as we parted are still one of my greatest regrets. Now, childcare, another thing that comes up time and time again on Woman's Hour.

It is a huge expense. And we also think that it ends when our children go to primary school. And that's not true because there are summers and there are afternoons and those also have to be covered. And so one of the gifts, again, of Myra's class was going in eyes wide open to what those expenses would be and viewing child care as an investment, not that it is an expense. And so what I mean is if your, say it's the woman, if their salary does not cover that child care,

it doesn't mean that she shouldn't go back to work and she should stay home. It means that as a couple, you add your salaries together, you deduct child care from that total expense, and you view it as an investment that will be a smaller share of your total income over time as you both progress in your career. What are the most effective ways to anticipate and address bumps generally in relationships what are the biggest bumps that we need to be ready for well certainly um as children grow and as people grow um the initial spark in the relationship sometimes dims. And so this needs to be acknowledged. This needs to be discussed. We are big believers in couples therapy. And we are the first to say that we are not couples therapists, because you need a lot more training in that than certainly we have. But,

you know, going to a couple's therapist to discuss some changes that one or both of you perceive is, again, a great investment in your marriage. So, again, don't wait. Don't let things fester. Deal with what comes up when it comes up. So many people getting in touch with us. I'm just listening to the program.

I wish I'd had this advice because I'm now in a position where I've lost everything based on all the things I did incorrectly, the whole thing, engagement, house purchase and divorce in just four years. I bought them, my then partner, a flat after knowing him less than a year with my life savings. I have lost the flat because I couldn't afford to buy him. I'm currently sofa surfing. And then someone else has got a question saying, what happens when you're a divorced woman with children and you get together with a new partner, even if he doesn't have his own kids, financing your kids can become tricky. What should she do? So I've actually lived through this

because I've been divorced and the man I married had three children. And, you know, fortunately for me, he was very interested in talking things through from the beginning. I'm not sure I would have married him if he hadn't been, because certainly my first husband was not. And you just have to come up with some arrangement that's going to work for both of you. And there is no right answer to this question. There is an answer that will satisfy both of you or not, in which case you're not going to be together very long. But how to figure out how to support children that belong to one of you and, you know, both of you may have a relationship with them, but they are one person's child. It just requires continued conversations. I'm still thinking about the person who got in touch to say that they're sofa surfing at the moment. How can we help her not make the same

mistake again? Well, I'm devastated for her situation, but I'm heartened by the fact that she does have friends who she can be staying with. And the check-in part of our five C's is so important. So having conversations with couples who have relationships she admires to say, not what should I do, but how did you think about this person who you have now a fruitful relationship with? And what should I do, but how did you think about this person who you have now a fruitful relationship with? And how should I be thinking about people who I am meeting? So I love the fact that she has a network who's helping her.

And it's never too late to start over. I mean, we are firm believers in start now. She knows what not to do now. Unfortunately, those lessons are hard learned. But we believe they'll serve her well in the next go round. This has been a fascinating conversation. I could go on and on and on, and the messages are coming in, but we've run out of time.

But I want to thank you so much for coming in to talk to me, Abby Davidson and Myra Strober. Thank you. The book is called Money and Love, an Intelligent Roadmap for Life's Big Decisions. Thank you both. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Now, why does everyone want to go viral? And what happens when you do? Julia Boggio and her husband reenacted the whole of the classic Dirty Dancing dance at their wedding, including the lift. They uploaded it to YouTube and it went viral. Over 10 million people watched it and started a whole genre of quirky wedding dances. Julia and her husband were

even invited on BBC Breakfast, Richard and Judy and the Oprah Winfrey show. Fast forward to this year, Julia is now a writer and trying to publish her debut novel Shooters. But she was told that she didn't have enough followers on social media. So she decided to take matters into her own hands and self published the book tried to go viral again. And it worked. Julia joins me now to impart her wisdom. Ten million and one because I watched it last night and it is wonderful. What did that moment feel like when the viewers were stacking up and up and up? It was unbelievable because this was in the early days of YouTube. And we had just put it up online to show friends back in America. And, you know, the day after we put it up, we had a phone call from the metro.

And then it just snowballed from there. And then we were excited when there were 200 views. And then it just kept going and going and going. And then Oprah calls. Yeah. The Oprah story, you've got to share what happened. So, you know, we had done a lot of press over here and we decided to go to Greece to kind of get away from it all. And when the plane landed, I turned my phone on and I had a call from one of the producers at Oprah Winfrey.

So I phoned her back and she's like, yeah, we want to fly you to Chicago for the show. We're doing a whole thing on YouTube. And I'm like, yeah, OK. So she flew us out there. They had us on, told us to learn some of the dance again to perform. And we went on and the audience is like politely clapping along. I'd like to say we are not amazing dancers. So they were being very kind. And then suddenly they start going crazy. And I just look over my husband's shoulder. And Patrick Swayze is walking towards me. I mean, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I can't handle it. Even I've read about it. I've thought about it. And now you're telling me, okay, so Patrick Swayze. Yeah. Yeah. And he comes up and he taps my husband on the

shoulder and he's like, may I cut in? And I pushed my husband out of the way and I threw myself into his arms. Incredible. Incredible. What a life moment um were there any negative consequences to all of that so you had this huge moment in your life it's all gone viral yeah i think there is a mental load to going viral and i think they're just starting now to do lots of studies on on what that is but you know we put things off because we didn't know what opportunities were going to be coming our way because we had people calling us all the time and talking to us about possibly fronting a TV show and da-da-da-da. And it was just, it messes with your head a bit. So we put off having children for probably a couple of years because of that.

And I wish I hadn't because I ended up having fertility issues. So yeah, it made us make some decisions that I probably regret in hindsight so because of the whirlwind of what was going on you made it well we've just been talking about haven't we life choices big decisions that you make in life based on opportunities and money and and you regret that decision but you have had children I've got two now yes so and they are very much part of the second time you went viral because uh not not content with you know millions and millions of people seeing your wedding video your Christmas cards go viral yeah so um we do crazy Christmas cards because we just really love Christmas and like for example uh we did a Game of

Thrones card and my husband was in makeup for seven hours to become the Night King so we really I mean we mean business with these things. And I had a friend who worked at the BBC and I said, do you think that they'd like this story for Christmas? Because it's nice to do things that make people smile. And our cards make people smile. And so, you know, it was a hard time in 2020. And so she talked to her producers and it went up on the BBC website on Christmas Day

and then went viral again. Oh, and they are adorable because your children are adorable and particularly the Home Alone one is your daughter reenacting the Home Alone. But is that slightly different to the first time? Because the first time you uploaded your video and it was just, you uploaded it for friends and family.

This time you know what you're doing it because you knew that this is going to be something that will capture the public's imagination. Yes. But that being said, there was no benefit to it for to us of going viral the second time that to me, that was really just about trying to spread the joy. You know, the first two times were kind of a lot more accidental than the third time, which was a lot more organized. So did you feel the same way when the Christmas cards were on the BBC website on Christmas Day? Well, you know, it is a dopamine hit. It is a dopamine hit.

And my husband was like trying to take the phone out of my hand on Christmas Day, like come spend time with your family and stop seeing where our video is on the BBC website. Yeah. So, you know, it is mentally, it it's quite stimulating and obviously you've got the skill set to go with it because your husband can edit and film which is why your wedding video is done so well and you're a photographer so you know what you're doing basically it's not like by happy accident this is by design yes yeah yeah well the third time was definitely by design tell me about the third time so So the third time was for my book

Shooters, because as you mentioned, you know, I was told by publishing that they were looking for writers with a better chance of going viral on TikTok. So I said, I can do this myself. And so I looked at, you know, as women do, I looked at what I had in my arsenal of tools, and I had no money and a very healthy contact list of excellent photographers around the world. So I did some brainstorming with my friend James Musselwhite and we came up with this idea of doing something like the Cadbury egg commercial. Sure. Where it was like, where do you eat yours?

And so I asked them all to photograph themselves reading my book Shooters and they did not disappoint. But you're obviously brilliant at self-PR. You're very, very good at it, but you also have, as you just said, you've got the resources to be able to do it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the important thing. But what would you say to anyone listening who doesn't have the resources or the contacts or the friends at the BBC or the, or the skills that you have? Like how do they get, if they've got, if they've written something or they want some, how, what should they do? You just have to think laterally. I mean, probably easier said than done, but you just have to think of different ways

to get the word out there about your product. Yeah, I mean, it sounds simple, but... Is it for fame or is it for money or is it for both? Probably a little bit of everything, a little bit of everything. The first two times were for the dopamine hits. The third time I'd say, you know, I want to sell my book. It took me a long time to write it. It was my pandemic baby.

And I would really love people to read it. It's interesting because I think that phrase going viral, which you definitely did with your, it's kind of now we're in a whole different world. Oh, it's completely different. Completely different. And influencers are pushing themselves out there and it's all about capturing people's imagination. And there's lots of people who know how to do it very, very well.

So what are you going to do next? I don't know. What's your next plan? I've got to think. It'll come to me in the shower, I'm sure. Has it changed you? No, I don't think so. I think I'm still kind of quirky and crazy.

You've got brilliant ideas, I have to say. And is the book selling the main thing? It is. I got it to number 16 on the romantic comedy list in the UK. And I got it to the bestseller list in America on the day that we launched it. My goodness. Congratulations. Thank you, Julia. Thank you so much for coming in to speak to me. That's it for me. Thank you for all your input into the program. I will be back tomorrow, the usual time, two minutes past ten. Join me then for more Woman's Hour. And tomorrow we've got the performance poet Selena Godden

talking to me about her collection of poems, Pessimism is for Lightweights. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4, this is Breaking Mississippi, the explosive inside story of one man's war against racial segregation in 1960s America. I knew the state of Mississippi would stop at nothing, including killing me. James Meredith's mission to become the first black student at the University of Mississippi triggers what's been described as the last battle of the American Civil War. It's a fight that draws in the KKK and even President

Kennedy himself. Can you maintain this order? Well, I don't know. That's what I'm worried about. And we must fight! I thought, wow, this could be it. This could be the beginning of World War III. Now aged 89, James Meredith tells his story. I'm public radio journalist Jen White, and this is Breaking Mississippi. Available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.