Woman's Hour - Rape Crisis at 50, Extroverted kids/introverted parents, Atlantic Ocean rowers

Episode Date: January 2, 2025

In 1974, a group of around 40 women met in London to discuss the ongoing rape crisis and what to do about it. That meeting eventually led to the establishment of the UK's first ever Rape Crisis centre, which opened its doors and helpline on 15 May 1976. Since then, an entire network of Rape Crisis centres has been established by passionate groups of women around the country. Kylie Pentelow is joined by Dr Kate Cook, co-author of Rape Crisis: Responding to Sexual Violence, and Lee Eggleston, long-standing chair on the board of Rape Crisis England and Wales and who works on the front line of a rape crisis centre.Are you an introverted parent to extroverted children? Are they the life and soul of the party when you’d prefer to stay at home? Or are they always talking to random strangers when you’d prefer not to? This is the situation Grace Victory finds herself in. She tells Kylie how she manages two extroverted children, and psychologist Dr Tara Quinn-Cirillo joins to give tips.There has been a rise in the number of children across England needing specialist treatment for severe mental health crisis, according to official NHS data analysed by the mental health charity YoungMinds. They found it shows a 10% increase in emergency, very urgent and urgent referrals for under-18s. There were 34,793 emergency, very urgent or urgent referrals to child and adolescent mental health services crisis teams between April and October 2024 that compared with 31,749 in the same six-month period in 2023. Kate Silverton, qualified child counsellor and author, joins Kylie.Four women from Pembrokeshire in Wales are about to set off on an Atlantic rowing challenge that’s been three years in the planning. They’re set to break two world records along the way. 32-year-old Sophie Pierce will be the first person with cystic fibrosis to row any ocean and 70-year-old Janine Williams will be the oldest woman to complete this challenge. She’s due to set a Guinness World Record. Along with Miyah and Polly, the women will spend 60 days together in a 10-metre-long ocean rowing boat to cross 3,200 miles unaided from Lanzarote to Antigua. Sophie and Janine speak to Kylie on the day before they leave for Lanzarote.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Now, the festive parties are over. Maybe you're relieved or raring to go again in 2025. It probably depends on if you're an introvert or an extrovert. But what happens when you're an introvert and your child is an extrovert? Maybe you dread being sociable with other mums in the playground while your child is out there chatting to everyone.

Or you'd rather just stay at home while your son or daughter wants to be a social butterfly. We'll be hearing from an introverted mum with extroverted kids and how she copes or doesn't. So is this you? Maybe you were the extroverted one and had an introverted parent. We'd love to hear your experiences on this. Of course, you can text the programme. The number is 84844. You can send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 03700100444. We're also, of course, on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Also coming up, it's 50 years of the rape crisis movement.

We'll be looking at how it was formed and the important impact it's had on women's lives. But also with fears about funding, what does the next half century hold for the organisation? And the women hoping to break two records rowing across the Atlantic. One will be the oldest, the other the first person with cystic fibrosis to row any ocean. We'll be talking with them about the preparation that takes, how tough the challenge will be and those all-important

questions about how to take a discreet comfort break on a 10-metre rowing boat. I'm very intrigued to hear about that. But let's start with introverted parents who have extroverted children. Certainly affects a few of the mums I know. And it's a situation that influencer and writer Grace Victory finds herself in. She's an introvert but has two very sociable young children who she says want to stop and talk to everyone they meet. She joins me now, as does psychologist Dr Tara Quinn, who's here in the studio.

Thank you both for your company today. Hi, Moni. Grace, can I start with you? Just tell me what it's like then to be an introverted mum of two extroverted children. It's emotionally draining. My energy, I feel like, has just sucked from me if I'm really really sociable but my children love to be social and obviously it's very good for their um development so I push myself um

but I find that come evening time about 7 p.m when they're in bed I have to sit in silence for about two hours. You've described it as being like an extreme sport. Is that because it feels physically tough for you? Yeah. I think if you're an introvert, you'll know what I mean when I say that your soul feels depleted by the end of the day. And I have to incorporate a lot of rest into my life and rest for me looks like not having to speak to anyone because I just find it really taxing. So what is it? Give us an example of something that your children will do

that is tough for you. They love talking to other people whereas I can kind of go about my day, pop into a shop, I'm polite and say hi and smile, but my children love to have like deep conversations with people. And that can be quite hard

because I am not a big fan of small talk. Not that I find it uncomfortable, but it can be just a bit awkward sometimes. But obviously I do it for them because they love it and I want to nurture that side of them. Tara, can I just bring you in here? Can you explain what it means to be an introvert or an extrovert? So there's kind of two elements to it.

There's what we see, but there's also what's going on behind the scenes in your brain. So people who are introverts will be sensitive or more sensitive to dopamine than people who are more extroverts. So what it means is you just reach your threshold earlier, basically. What they want is another type of neurotransmitter, which is called acetylcholine, which is basically the kind of hit that you get when you're calm, when you sit down. And that's the thing that they're searching for.

So you can get really overstimulated, overwhelmed yourself, let alone when you have children who are also extroverted. You've almost got like the perfect storm. But what it can mean also is that you're quite introverted, you're very reflective. There's lots of really lovely things about introverts. And that's what I want to make sure we get across today, that this isn't something that's wrong with you or that needs to be fixed.

People are very empathetic. They're calm. They're really good at problem solving because the front part of their brain works super well. And that's the part of the brain that controls all those wonderful functions as well. Can you be a bit of both? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So it's kind of helpful to think about it on a spectrum, so to speak.

I tend to think of myself in the middle. So there's some days where I really do. The thing about extroverts is they get something from stimulation and being around people. That's what tops them up. And exactly as Grace was saying, for her, it depletes. So what she needs is that rest and that time. And that's really important for people to understand that there's two very big differences there in how our brains are responding to the environment around us.

Grace, I read that one of your children was kind of going up to somebody and touching them as well. These situations can make you feel extremely uncomfortable. Can you tell me about that? Yeah, we were at the dentist and my children are very affection affectionate I think they model what you know me and their dad are like um so I have to be quite hot with them on consent and like touching people's bodies obviously they're so young and people understand but they do like go that's people like high-fiving hugging people and obviously a lot of like people love it um but I do have to just make sure that they they're recognizing that actually you can't always do that to people you don't know um but it is hard they are you know they're two and four um I love them and they're so so confident um so I'm trying to kind of nurture that um in a way that they understand it's appropriate.

But it is hard. And I feel like I've got two children, but I'm doing this all the first time. That make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Because they're very different characters, I assume. I have a two-year-old as well, and he's going through the stage of asking people if they'll tickle mummy,

which is quite difficult in certain situations for me and the person he's talking to. So Tara, how do you cope then? We were talking about, you know, you need a bit of time back, but we all know that being a parent, you don't potentially get that time. Absolutely. And sometimes I wonder whether actually that can be really invalidating to say, well, just have a little break, you know, stick the kettle on. Those two minutes aren't going to do enough for most people who are introvert. The number one thing psychologists will say is try, if you can, to educate yourself about what's happening with your brain.

If you can understand what you need and what you don't need as an introvert, how you may be different to your kids. If you can understand general brain development. I know it sounds super nerdy, but it can really help because it can empower you. Number two, then, is putting in your boundaries. So you don't have to say yes to everything as a parent. I used to loathe running around soft play, crawling in and out of those cages. And I'm kind of in the middle of the spectrum. But it's OK to put boundaries in. It's OK. One of the lovely things, and there's loads of research on this, is that introverted parents can make excellent teachers.

They can teach their kids. You can do parallel play with your kids. You can do parallel play with your kids you can do parallel activities so you can flick through a magazine while your kid is you know literally going through a sticker book or on an ipad but you're also teaching them skills in terms of self-regulation occupying themselves as well but you'll get more of that downtime what's really important with introversion is you need really targeted amounts of downtime it's not just a quick fix here and there and downtime isn't having a glass of wine with a friend for an introvert. It's about time to yourself. It's about resetting.

So then it's learning to check in with your body and knowing how do I know when I really have reset? Because sometimes we might be doing kind of tick box reset, but it's not enough. So exactly as Grace said there, she needs a couple of hours in the evening. So things like putting your kids to bed earlier, being really bound with time when you want to talk, when you don't.

It's OK to utilise those things that we get shame for. Let them use the iPad for a little bit. Put a film on so you can just do whatever you need, whether it's scrolling for your phone, dropping all the shame of that stuff. Sometimes you just need downtime. It can be scrolling on TikTok. It can be enough to reset you in order to parent.

But also remember that this isn't something we need to change. We can be wonderful parents as introverts. And dropping that shame can really help with your mental health as well. Absolutely, yeah. And there's so much guilt and shame that you feel as a parent. Grace, are there people in your family who are extroverted? Where do you think your kids get it from? There are.

And thank goodness for that because they're able to do the things that I find really difficult so um my partner's dad is really extroverted and just has so much energy um and he can take them everywhere and just doesn't feel the the drain that I feel. So I think they definitely get it from their wider family because me and my partner are both introverts. But it's nice that we've got people in our lives that can take that role more. So, yeah, my children are very, very lucky.

But they are also good at resting. They've kind of taken an example from me and they always say to me, I'm just resting, mummy, or I'm relaxing or I'm chilling, which is nice to hear because I think it's important that children learn to rest and listen to their bodies. So I'm just trying to get the balance right. We've had some comments in. We've been asking for your views on this. One person here says, I'm very pleased to hear that despite being introverted, one can raise children to be extroverted. I've struggled with anxiety and introversion my whole life. And I aspire to have children who are the opposite to me. So Tara you can you actively encourage your child to be extroverted if that's

what you want them to be like? I always say kind of move away from the label so you've got a child in front of you whose brain is developing and brain development for boys isn't complete sometimes till the late 20s so those frontal lobes that front part of your brain that controls the impulse control and the emotional regulation can take longer and sometimes it can be a little bit more pronounced in boys let's just say as well so it's kind of going with what you've got in front of you i have two boys but they are so so different in their needs they're quite extrovert you can teach them to kind of self-regulate to understand about their own bodies i love what grace was saying there about you know they're starting to use language about when they're resting so it's about not putting what you think they should do but

trying to help harness what they're noticing about themselves. So if they're extrovert and they want to talk to people, that's great. But you can also put boundaries on maybe how they do that and when they do that so they can learn to self-regulate, they can learn about appropriate behaviour, all the things that all children should be taught as part of parenting as well. Grace, you actually put this on an Instagram post, didn't you,

that this was what you were kind of going through and talking about starting a self-help group were you surprised by the amount of people who are in the same boat as you yeah a lot of my Instagram posts are quite honest about motherhood um and I don't really shy away from sharing the things that I find really difficult um and I was and it made me feel less alone which I think is why I post content anyway um to help people to relate to people in some way um and although I have a lot of mum friends and we talk about this all the time it's so nice to have a bigger community of women and mothers who are like yes Grace like that's how I feel because motherhood can be very very lonely.

Absolutely there's another comment here from from somebody who says try doing Christmas as an extrovert from an extrovert extended family with an introvert husband and two introvert children. I mean it is it is a real balance isn't it Tara? It is and do you know what I love there Grace you were saying it's about having compassion and it's about being okay saying I can have certain friends that it's really useful to talk to things about and others that maybe I need a bit more. So to have a community that you can reach out to, that's what's really good for our mental health.

Because don't forget, when we're depleted, when we're overwhelmed, sometimes that can lead to things like more anxiety, lowered mood, shame and guilt. Goodness knows I'm a parent of a teenager now and one that's almost about to be a teenager. You can just be saturated with what you should do, what you shouldn't do.

It can bring your mood down. It can make you feel really rubbish about yourself and then longer term, longer term mental health problems. So the fact that we can talk and we can be honest, I love that, Grace. You know, really honest, open content. Social media is full of so much fake stuff. So why not be honest?

And then actually what happens is people feel able and safer to go that's me absolutely and this is okay well thank you so much uh for your time psychologist dr tara quinn and writer grace victory and we're going to be continuing to uh talk about this so uh let us know what you think you You can text Women's Hour on 84844. We're also on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. Now, we had a very special Women's Hour programme yesterday, all about walking. If you missed it, don't worry, you can listen back on BBC Sounds. Now, Nuala looked at what really happens to our bodies and our minds when we go out for a stomp. She also heard from women who find inspiration from walking.

And she heard from the comedian and author Miranda Hart, whose love of walking became even stronger after she was unable to go for a walk for a prolonged time due to an illness. Here's some of that interview. I would say it was a sort of mind-body connection of me trusting my body again, that it did have some energy in it. Because with fatigue-based illnesses, you do lose a lot of your energy cells. And, you know, ME is a very real physical condition, not a behavioral one. And then you lose a lot of trust in your body, thinking, how much have I got? Will I do too much? And all that sort of thing.

So it was literally sort of, well, do 10 paces and working with my body and and it telling me when I'm pushing it and I would do things I'm doing it now with my hands I'm just sort of like a conductor I'm just sort of we'll just move my limbs about even when I was sitting up in bed and I could feel my body and energy coming back just little things like walking barefoot on the grass it just I mean I'm smiling now just thinking about it and that smile you know calms your nervous system which calms your immune system which the immune system is my big problem just that smile just the sense of awe and wonder as well and also I walk slower the blessing in hefty disguise of fatigue is I've had to walk slower. And so I look up more and I look around.

And it's the slower pace that really calms my mind. I have a very busy mind. Are you kind of watching yourself now to make sure you don't fall back into old habits, for example? And is there perhaps a favourite walk that helps you stay on the straight and narrow, even on a curved path? I love it. I love it. Yeah, I think every day I have to, my book, I kind of have these 10 treasures, as I call them. And I do have to, pun intended, walk them, you know, every day and keep an eye on myself. It's very easy to go back into old patterns and there isn't a particular walk at the moment I'm still having to manage fatigue so I'm still not able on a big sort of cardio power walk or anything like that so it's just it's just 20 minute very slow walks around a field and um I

find something new in it every day that was Miranda Hart there speaking to Nuala for our New Year's Day program all about walking and you can hear the full interview and the whole programme by going to BBC Sounds and searching for Woman's Hour. Now in 1974 a group of around 40 women met in London to discuss the ongoing rape crisis and what to do about it. That meeting eventually led to the establishment of the UK's first ever rape crisis centre which opened its doors in London and its helpline around 50 years ago in May of 1976. Since then, an entire network of rape crisis centres has been established by passionate groups of women around the country. Well, to discuss this, I'm joined by Dr Kate Cook, co-author of Rape Crisis Responding to Sexual Violence, which was published in 2008, and retired senior lecturer in law at Manchester Metropolitan University.

And also Lee Eggleston, OBE and longstanding chair on the board of Rape Crisis England and Wales, who still works on the front line of a rape crisis centre. Welcome to you both. Hello there. Hi. Kate, can I start with you? 50 years, it's quite an achievement, isn't it? How have things changed since those early years?

Yes, well, if we go back to the very beginning, that's even four years earlier. So back in about 72, the whole of the rape crisis movement started in the United States. So women were meeting in those days in things called consciousness raising groups. So we're back at the beginning of feminism, if you like, back at the beginning of this, what was called the second wave or has been referred to as the second wave of feminism. Women meeting in each other's houses, having chats about what it is that annoys them about the world as what will become known as feminists. So they're chatting about their consciousness, their understanding of the world, things like too much housework, not enough jobs,

men not doing anything, and so on and so forth and eventually women also started talking about their life experiences and even tough stuff like being raped or having been sexually assaulted or having been sexually abused as children now these aren't enormous groups these are relatively middle-sized or small groups of women meeting in very safe spaces and consequently starting to talk about these things they've never talked about before. But because of these conversations, women came to understand that rape was something more common than had previously been realized. And through that, they said to each other, well, women need support then, don't we? We need support if this is part of our life experience. And so that's where the Rape Crisis

Center was born. It was born in the United States. And then a couple of years later, over in England as well. The very first one was in about 1972 in Washington. It was set up by eight women. It did a 24-hour helpline. They ran it out of a house that they shared. And in that house, they even had a spare bed in case someone needed to escape. So it's an amazing model if we think back on it now. It's really not how the centres are run these days. But what a lovely story to think about. Absolutely. And Lee, you were just 14 still at school when you first heard about the rape centres that run these days but what a lovely story to think about absolutely and and lee you were just uh 14 still at school when you when you first heard about the rape crisis movement you then ended up setting up the south essex rape and incest centre that's known as seric what

what inspired you to do that to get involved um exactly what kate really, which was we were a small group of working class women and girls meeting in someone's house, talking about different issues. And for me as a young woman, it was a spaces now is a question that I often ask myself because as yourselves, it's still at school. Now that as we've grown and developed over the last 40 years, our service, we're now one of 38 centres in England and Wales. So we're a small network with a huge impact. And you were taking 50 or 60 calls in the first year. What kind of numbers are you dealing with now? Well, in the last calendar year, our service took more than 2,000, sorry, took 3,500 calls. We work with 2,000 individuals. We supported 72 trials and our cases are taking

831 days from report to call. So significantly grown. We've recently heard a lot about the brutal case of Giselle Pellico. We cover that extensively on this programme. What impact has that case and cases like it had on your work and also the women that you work with? I think it's had a big impact. All cases that hit the media have an impact and we express solidarity with the french women activists um what we feel is is that it did challenge the public perception around what is a victim with her kind of bravery but we in our in in our world it's not unusual for us to support women

with multiple offenders but i think what was unusual was the way that the press covered it so um one of the impacts is is that we've already in the in the country we got um 14,000 women and girls on waiting lists so we know that big stories such as that that's been um was covered by yourselves and the media will have an impact on women and girls reaching out. What do you mean by being on the waiting list? In the UK, there's 14,000 women and girls on waiting lists and that's because our services are unable to keep up with the demand.

So where will those women be? They could potentially be in situations that they need to leave? Possibly, yes. So each group has got their own way of dealing with waiting lists, but as a national figure, we know that there's approximately 14,000 on those lists. So we do have a national helpline that offers support whilst individuals are waiting for one-to-one counselling or advocacy services.

Lee, just going back to the case we were talking about, Giselle Pellicot, does that have a lasting cultural impact? Does that change things for the better, do you think, in terms of how people will perceive the crime and also help victims? I think that it will give victims... There's a number of issues with that. Yes, I do hope that it creates cultural change.

But what we know in rape crisis is after a court case, that's often, that's not the end of the story. So depending on the outcome of that court case, their victims and survivors will need support to help kind of rebuild their lives, go through the process. So what we know is that it doesn't end with the court case. And as we know from her case, she asked for kind of privacy and respect. And we hope that she's getting the support that she needs.

Kate, what do you think things, it's been going for 50 years, what do you think the impact in the next 50 years is going to have? Do you think there could potentially be a point where crisis centres aren't needed? Is that massively, overly optimistic? hugely optimistic. Think about somebody like Giselle. As Leah's just said, given what she's been through, and even given that the case is complete, and these men have been sentenced, that doesn't mean she stops experiencing what she went through. Think about her daughter also. Her daughter's also had traumatic experiences, which she now has to live with the remainder of her life. Those of us, like Lee and I, who've worked on these helplines know that you might stop thinking about it immediately. You might go through, let's hope, a good period once the sentencing's complete, but that's not the end of the story. You then live with the concept of somebody perhaps being in prison,

but then one day they're going to come out of prison. There's another concept that's not easy to live with. So even when somebody is sent to prison, that's not the end of the story for the survivor. They keep living through how they're going to live with this in their life now and how they feel about this man who's still alive who did this to you, or in their case, many men who are still alive who did this to them.

Can we talk about... Go on, carry on. Can we talk about funding and looking ahead for you? The Ministry of Justice has confirmed that the Ra and sexual abuse support fund will receive 21 million pounds for the um 2025-26 financial year are you reassured by that lee i think you'll have yes um we are reassured by that because um most centers were on a cliff edge around funding, so we are reassured. But this funding is not from the public purse.

It's from the proceeds of crime known as the victim surcharge, and we haven't seen an increase on that since at least 2015. So there's been lots of discussions about funding and what is actually required. And we know that from various reports done, one recently by Rosa showed that the women and girls sector only received 1.8% of available grants. So we know that the funding environment is very challenging. And that is partly because we're made to operate like small businesses. So we have to compete for our funding. We have to go up against

big nationals, all kinds of complex situations around our funding. And at least 80 percent of my time is about securing funds for this organization so we know that if that wasn't there the energy the kind of creativity around the development of our services the expansion of our services would change. Can I add to that? Yes, of course. So to everybody who's listening who's experienced rape or who cares about the rape crisis movement, Lee's an amazing woman. She's worked in this field for a very long time and there are many, many like her out there who work incredibly hard.

If you can do something to support rape crisis, if you can do something to support rape crisis, if you can do something to raise money for rape crisis or to encourage the government to give rape crisis centres money that they don't have to spend half of their time working for, please think about what you could do to make a difference. Because these centres, they help women all the time in the most amazing um clear simple straightforward massively important way they make a huge difference to women's lives so yeah if you can do something that would be a great thing to do we asked the ministry of justice for a statement and their spokesperson said the government inherited a criminal justice system

under immense pressure and a black hole in the nation's finances they go on to say we must now make difficult decisions to ensure we can deliver the justice victims deserve through our courts and across the system by protecting our support for victims of sexual violence and domestic abuse we are ensuring help is available to survivors of these awful crimes as they seek to rebuild their lives. That's a statement there from the Ministry of Justice. Now some of our listeners might have heard in the news bulletins today about non-contact sexual offences. For example, indecent exposure or obscene phone calls. Home Office Minister Jess Phillips has said police and prosecutors must take them

seriously and police chiefs have said not all victims of these offenses have received the right outcomes when their cases have been investigated lee what what's your opinion on this today um my opinion is is that the these offenses are patterns of behaviour and we may need to be rethinking the language of how we describe it. So when we talk about non-contact, it implies that there's no... it minimises the impact on the victim. So that is, you know, looking at your story, that is something you can see quite clearly, the impact that it's had on that individual.

So we think that there's two things. It's a pattern of behaviour and we need to be looking at that, how that behaviour escalates. And we need to, when we're thinking about the sexual offences themselves, I think Kate was looking at the length of sentencing if that case went to court. I don't know if you want to say, Kate, what the sentencing involves. Sure, I can do.

So there are three possible offences that could be committed and all of them have a maximum possible sentence of two years in prison. That's the absolute maximum possible sentence. So these, because they don't involve, they involve no actual contact, they're seen in law as not as harmful. And of course, that's not how we understand them necessarily. You're talking about flashing voyeurism, cyber flashing. These are still incredibly potentially harmful things in real life. Lee, do you want to continue? Yes, I was just thinking about the Ministry of Justice statement

and the crimes that you're reporting this morning. I mean, every day, sexual violence, sexual abuse, adult survivors of sexual abuse are top stories every single day in the media so when when the government has announced that they're going to halve violence against women and girls we need an environment to allow that to happen so we know that violence against women and girls is endemic not epidemic it's not you know we've heard so many statements over the last 50 years. I'm not looking forward to hearing those kind of promises in the next 50 years. We need much more action. We need the environment to change. And yeah, so that is what I'm looking forward to in the next 50 years, if I'm still here.

And of course, you know, there have been changes in the law over those last 50 years. You know, people will be surprised that, you know, the changes that meant you couldn't be convicted for raping your wife. You know, there have been those changes and there could potentially be changes in the future. Yes. The law has moved on. Yes, the law has moved on. What we don't want is laws to be bolted on as new offenses happen so we're thinking that there may needs to be an overview overhaul of the sexual offenses um to keep up with the changing in times we know that 20% of all recorded crime is to the police is violence against women and girls. And that's just the tip of an iceberg because we know that the majority of crimes are not reported.

So as we go, there needs to be much more of a strategic approach to how we deal with sexual offences. And again, another point we could make is that during this period of time we've been talking about the last 50 years, we have seen a huge shift away from the old-fashioned male-dominated concept of sexual offences. We used to have a concept where a man who was married could not rape his wife, for example, in our law. That used to exist. That's been got rid of.

But we can still see some, if you like, masculinist understanding, like, for example, these things we're talking about today not being taken seriously enough because they don't involve physical contact. Whereas we can say quite confidently as women, these things, this voyeurism stuff, this stuff that takes place online can still be incredibly harmful, incredibly unpleasant in life. We still want these crimes to be taken seriously.

Well, we thank you so much for all your work over the last 50 years. And of course, the important work that's going continue. To Lee Eggleston and to Dr. Kate Cook, thank you so much for your time here on Woman's Hour. And if you've been affected by any of the things you've heard today, you can contact the BBC Action Line for links to support groups. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now. Now we have been talking and asking for your views about extroverted children with introverted parents. We've got plenty of comments coming in on this. Let's hear this one from Rebecca. She says, very interested in your discussion on introverted mums with extrovert children. We are a neurodivergent family with different sensory processing needs. This very much plays into our outward behaviours. I have a lot of sensory sensitivities and simple measures like wearing ear loops and sunglasses

can help me conserve my energy. My children are mainly sensory seekers and love chatting and being out and about with others. I have to work very hard on my self-care. It's made me a much stronger and healthier person. Do keep your comments coming in. You can message us on 84844. Now there has been a rise in the number of children across England needing specialist treatment for severe mental health crisis. That's according to official NHS data analysed by the mental health charity Young Minds. They found it shows a 10% increase in emergency, very urgent or urgent referrals to child and adolescent mental health service crisis teams between April and October 2024. That's compared with 31,749 in the same six month period in 2023. of Young Minds, Laura Bund, said the figures were concerning and showed that thousands of children urgently required help earlier to prevent them from becoming seriously unwell. The chair of the

Royal College of Psychiatrists, Child and Adolescent Facility, Dr Elaine Lockhart, said the COVID-19 pandemic, the cost of living crisis and a range of other factors has had a significant impact on children's mental health in recent years. Well, to discuss this further, I'm joined by Kate Silverton, qualified child counsellor and author. Kate, thanks so much for your time. Your expertise and the books you've written focus on how to support your child's mental health. How concerning do you find these figures today? Well, I mean, there's no question that many of our young people are in crisis. You've just read the stats there. We've got the highest number

of open referrals to children and young people's mental health services on record. Suicide remains the leading cause of death for young people in the UK. There's no question we have a crisis. The real question is how are we going to start looking for the answers to prevent it, as you've just been saying, from becoming a crisis? So to be clear, we are talking about young people who are at risk of, who are self-harming. They need serious mental health professional support. But we also have a massive problem in the country with families who are also feeling that they're in crisis, but they're either not able or feel able to ask for help. And I think we need to really start having a much more sensible discussion. And maybe we can start by reframing what we think of as disorder as distress and

really get curious about what's going on for our children and young people. And to do that, we need to look at how our children are being raised and how we are operating as parents and in the widest, really changes in wider Western culture, because we've had so many changes in our communities that have in many cases made family life much more challenging, often leaving parents and children feeling increasingly isolated and overwhelmed. So it's a multifaceted issue. For those people who are in crisis, we must have the appropriate support. But let's not forget there are many, many families struggling right now. I work with

many of them. And the problems are becoming increasingly complex. We have to start understanding the drivers. And we do now have the answers, by the way, there's a lot of hope. But we do need to start finding the answers and implementing different policies to really ensure that everyone, families and children are getting support that they need. Yeah, and I read out those statistics and, you know, they're huge numbers. And I think the thing that's easy to forget is for each of those numbers, there are probably parents who are absolutely desperate to get support for their children. I mean, from the people that you've worked with, what is that like, knowing that your child needs that help, not being able to get it.

There's a huge amount of fear and shame when we think as parents that we are somehow failing. And this is where I really want to stress to any parent out there now who you are not alone. I write my books. I do my work one to one. I do a lot of pro bono work and work on social media to really get this message across. You are absolutely not alone. And asking for help is the it's a very brave thing to do. But it's actually the best thing you can do for your children and for yourself, because no parent really should be left feeling alone at the moment or to be feeling unsafe in their own home or for their children to be unsafe. I do also want to say that parents are often more powerful than we might

think. And when we come together, when we can start being open about the struggles that we're having, very often we find in that community, and you've just been speaking about it with some of your previous guests, when we have that sense of community, which we've lost, you know, we've lost those enriched relationships, the extended family. And it's important, I often say to my parents, listen, if you're struggling, it's not because you're failing, it's actually look at the environment around us. Many of us are holding down jobs as well as maybe solo parenting. Many parents are having to juggle all the plates as well as working. So it's not us who are failing right now. It's actually how our society has been structured. We need to start looking at this a lot more holistically. Children need and we need

enriched emotional interactions to thrive and to benefit from the wisdom and the support of extended family. And parents need that, too. We heard there, I mentioned Dr. Elaine Lockhart from the Royal College of Psychiatrists. She was saying that the pandemic cost of living crisis particularly had had an impact and potentially potentially you know may have led to this this increase is that is that your thoughts as well other factors human beings thrive on social interactions how can we not think that everyone's been affected by the events of the past few years um the financial um distress that many families face now So we have to get a little bit real, but we also have to start looking and getting understanding the science. So my background,

really, the way I work is we look at neurobiology, the neuro sort of psychology, as it were. And we really need, if we want to understand an 18 year old today, we need to be looking at the first few years of life. We now know in terms of neuroscience, the brain does its fastest development in the first few years of life. So we need to look at the support that we're offering women when they're pregnant. Stress can impact on the developing brain. And we need to look at children's starts in life, those first three years, the consistent care that they need for their brains to be making important associations about the world. Am I safe? Are my needs met? Do I feel safe and loved? This is not a judgment call on parents, by the way, or on nurseries. But when we start understanding the science of brain development, we can start seeing the future

adult that our children become, because that's really, really important. And we're not having evidence-based policies put in schools. Schools now for children, we used to have a lot more play and creativity, and that was encouraged. Play is work for a child's brain and for social engagement, healthy social engagement. And yet we have an education system that has become a lot more knowledge based and play has been reduced and creativity has been reduced. So there's, as I say, it's a multifaceted issue. We need to start having these conversations. And this is just the beginning.

But we really need to look at whether it's not our children who are disordered, but perhaps the environment in which we're now raising them. We're talking about, these figures relate to urgent care. So what intervention are we talking about if we're talking about urgent care? What does that actually mean? Well, urgent care is what should happen, obviously, is when children, first of all, we want children who are referred by their GP. And I have to say to parents, whether that's your school that you first talked to, but a trusted professional who can then make that referral. So whether it's through the school who can then link you, but your GP is obviously the best place to start. And then, of course, we have the wider mental health services but as we all know we've got children who are being placed unless they're

actually at that critical point in which we think that their lives might be in danger there are parents who are concerned about that but being told your child is just not at that point just yet so we we So we do have good critical care for children when they're at that crisis point. It's just that there are now so many in number that we're having waiting lists, which is just entirely unacceptable. If we could make a wave of magic wand, we would, of course, have more resources, more counsellors, more psychologists in place. We don't have that, which is why we need to start having the conversations of how can we best support parents in the wider community. What I would say is do seek help from your local authority as well,

because there are really good family support networks. And I don't think we're using them as much as we might because there is that resistance of, you know, am I going to be blamed for this? We've got to get rid of that stigma and ensure that parents do receive that support. But in terms of those long waiting lists on CAMHS services, what can I say? You know, we need to, I can't wave a magic wand to make that any better than what it is resources resources resources kate silverton thank you so much and we've had a message here from dan in south wales who says i work for the police as a mental health triage worker he says sadly resources are not available when children need it we get a huge amount of requests from families who are concerned

about their child's mental health as they've been told to contact us by children's services he says it's all wrong also i feel some parents just lack the ability to parent in a responsible and proactive manner that set thoughts there from down in south wales and we have had a statement from the department of health and social care spokesperson said too many children and young people are waiting too long to access the mental health care they need. We will recruit 8,500 additional mental health workers, provide young people with access to a specialist mental health professional at every school and a young futures hub in every community. As part of our plan for change, we will get the NHS back on its feet, making it fit for the future. And don't forget that if you're affected by any of those issues that we've been

discussing there are links to support and advice on our website now how about this a team of four women from wales are kick-starting their new year with a record-breaking rowing challenge that's been three years in the planning sophie janine maya and polly are friends from the nayland rowing club inembrokeshire. And they're about to spend 60 days together in a 10 metre long ocean rowing boat to cross the Atlantic. And they're going to row 3,200 miles unaided from Lanzarote to Antigua. And they're set to break two world records along the way. Well, 32-year-old Sophie will be the first person with cystic fibrosis to row any ocean, and 70-year-old Janine will be the oldest woman to complete this challenge. She's

hoping to set a Guinness World Record, and I'm joined by both of them, Sophie and Janine, just before they set off to Lanzarote tomorrow. Thanks so much for joining me. I'm sure you're doing lots of prep. Sophie, can you start by telling me how the idea for this rather crazy, if you'll forgive me saying, challenge, how did it all come about? Yeah, of course. So about three years ago, we were at our local rowing club and Janine asked me one day if I'd ever thought about rowing across the Atlantic. And my response to her was, are you asking me to row across the Atlantic with you and she said yes I think I am and that was the start of that. Brilliant, tell me how it's all been like

from that point to this point and are you feeling ready to go? Well I think it's been a bit of a crazy journey the past few years in itself and we knew when we decided to take on this challenge that getting to the start line, from when we started to other ocean rowers, they've all told us that often getting to the start line is actually the hardest part because you're trying to do so many different things, like raising the money to be able to go, turning ourselves into ocean rowers getting ourselves physically fit but also you know we're doing this alongside um you know our normal lives and working you know so and it's sort of like i

sort of see it as it's like having another part-time job on top of uh you know my already full-time job so it's been really exciting and we've learned so much and i think that we could probably all say that we're not the same people now that we were when we first signed up to the challenge. It's been really testing at times, but we've worked amazingly well together as a team. And we've all been willing to sort of go on that sort of journey, really. And I think we're all ready to go in terms of you know we've spent three years talking about doing it so now it's time to actually do it uh but i think there's also definitely you know when are you ever ready to go and get in a 10 meter long boat for 60 days i can't imagine ever

being ready janine when when you first approached sophie and said about this did you realize that you could potentially be be record-breaking and be the oldest woman to complete this challenge? No, I didn't. I hadn't really thought about that. I just wanted to do it. And then it was incidental. I happened to be going to be the oldest woman at 70.

I think the oldest woman at the moment is 64. Are there any concerns for you over that? I think for me, I'm very fit. I'm very active. And I always have been. I've been a zero for over 30 years. I think the extra bits for me to be careful of is making sure that I eat enough because, you know, getting older, as you get older, you lose muscle. So if my body is metabolizing muscle instead of fat, I'm never going to put that back on. The older I get, the more recovery time I need. So I'll have to be very careful of that. And also I'm probably more likely to break bones. That's just standard for older people, I think.

Well, gosh, we really wish you the best and hope that that doesn't happen. And Sophie, you've got some challenges of your own, haven't you? You're going to be managing your cystic fibrosis. So what do you need and and how do you do you need medication like talk me through what what extra facilities you're going to need on the boat yeah so there are a few different things I'm going to need when I'm out there so I take quite a few tablets every day so obviously I still need to be able to take my medication while I'm out there.

I also do daily nebuliser treatment to help clear my lungs of any mucus that is there. And so for the medication, I'm going to need a fridge. One of my medications has to be kept in the fridge. And so that's not normal on an ocean rowing boat. So firstly, because of the space that's required for a fridge, you know, as I'm sure you can imagine, there's not much space for anything, let alone extra items. But also on the boat, all our power, all our electricity comes from solar. And so that's one thing with ocean rowing that we're told repeatedly

by the event organisers but also other people who rowed oceans and you know managing your power on the boat is can be quite difficult at times already and so we've had to consider how we're going to manage running a fridge and a fridge that ideally we need to keep you know keep running as well. So we've had to do that. And then with my nebulizers as well. So they have to be charged. So again, it's putting more strain on our power source. But also we've worked with a team

and they've helped make sure that nebulizers are waterproof and are sort of unbreakable, if you like, as well. So hopefully, and then with the storage of my medication as well um that you know hopefully i'll be able to look after my cf as best as possible on the road what can you just talk us through janine what it's 10 meters to me doesn't sound very big for four of you how is it going to kind of work practically and sleep and things like that we're not sure exactly and um one thing i know is that we're not going to be doing at the end what we started doing um most people work in shifts so we'll have two people rowing and two sleeping

and we're going to work out as we go along whether we're going to have two people sleeping in one cabin or one in one cabin and one in um the other cabin so we got a cabin for and aft um yeah so um it's um it's going to be a balancing act i imagine and uh you know you're gonna do you get on as a foursome yeah we're all very different characters which is kind of enriches the team so we all have um different ways of doing things we've we've been working with uh someone to do team building which has been invaluable so understanding each other and understanding how we um how risk affects us and how we react to risk and also understanding ourselves in it. So that's been absolutely invaluable for us. Sophie, I've got to ask, what about toilet facilities?

So we'll have a bucket. So the facility, it'll be a bucket and chuck it facility. And we always say to people that we'll have two buckets on board. We'll have one which is the toilet and one that will be for washing. So one of the rules is don't get the buckets mixed up. Oh, gosh. Why have you decided to go at this time of year? Because it seems like, you know, all of us are thinking,

I wish the sun would come out and you're going to go and row on a boat in the ocean. Is this a peak time to go? Yes. So obviously, we're rowing from Lanzarote over to Antigua. So the weather is much nicer there than it is here in the UK in any event. But most importantly, it's outside of hurricane season. And also then we should be going. So we should pick up the trade winds as well so this is the right time of year for um atlantic crossings and um janine you've you've done uh various coaching haven't you uh for other rowers and i i wonder what it is about rowing i mean

clearly you both must absolutely love rowing because you're going to be doing it for a long time um what is it about rowing for you and the people who you coach that that makes you want to do it so much I think that there's something about being out on the water um being outside but out on the water there's's also the rhythm of rowing, I think. A lot of people find it very soothing. And some of the people that I've coached, well, quite a number of people that I have coached have some kind of sort of mental health problem

like anxiety or depression. And they find that so, so helpful. It's kind of a mindful thing. And also with rowing, you sit one behind each other so you don't do face-to-face stuff so I think some people find that really helpful and I've seen people's confidence growing enormously throughout the rowing. This will be the longest I've ever done though I've rowed the Irish Sea three times but never done an ocean before so it's going to be really interesting to see how

that how that pans out please tell me that you plan to spend a bit of time in Antigua when you're done as a reward absolutely absolutely definitely never been there going to have a holiday and recover from the row afterward goodness well I mean you both absolutely will deserve it. It's such an amazing challenge that you're taking on. You're doing it with your team, Maya and Polly. But for now, Janine and Sophie, thanks so much and the best of luck. Thank you. I just want to take you back to the story that we covered earlier about having extroverted children when you might describe yourself as an introvert. So this comment here, this person says, as an extrovert,

I find it so hard when I need connection, but my introvert family need time alone. In those situations, I feel like they can get what they need as they can go off on their own, but I can't get what I need unless I can find a friend to talk to, which isn't always possible. It can feel lonely and isolating. Thank you very much for all your comments. Tomorrow, I'll be looking ahead to the Women's Rugby World Cup 2025. Thank you very much for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

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