Woman's Hour - Raye, Women swimming the Channel, Anita Hill, Adaptive fashion

Episode Date: March 6, 2024

The South London singer-songwriter Raye joins Emma Barnett following her record-breaking six wins at the Brit awards last weekend. Raye tells us about her grandma Agatha who joined her on stage after winning Best Album for My 21st Century Blues. She also talks about being a woman in the music industry and the strength she has found from fellow female musician Charli XCX.The English channel has always held an allure for endurance swimmers the world over, but the first British woman to complete it was Mercedes Gleitze. She achieved this feat in 1927 and a new film, Vindication Swim, recreates that moment in history. Kirsten Callaghan plays Mercedes, she joins Emma along with the current channel swimmer Sarah Philpott to explain what it’s like to spend that long in open water, and what drives women to do it.It’s the Oscars this weekend, the first ceremony since the Academy introduced new diversity rules for all candidates. But almost seven years since the start of the Me Too movement - has Hollywood really become a safer place for the women who work there? According to the latest survey by the Hollywood Commission, which was set up in 2017 to help stop workplace harassment and discrimination in the entertainment industry, there's still a lot of work to do. Emma speaks to the chair of the Hollywood Commission, the activist, academic and author Anita Hill.If you had 20 minutes with the Prime Minister what would you use your time to ask? Grazia magazine, ahead of International Women's Day this week, chose to focus on the personal and the domestic in a series of three videos which have had a lot of reaction online. Lindsay Nicholson, writer and former editor of various women's magazines including Good Housekeeping and Cosmopolitan, joins Emma to discuss.Children with a disability, or limited mobility, often need some type of adjustment to garments so they can wear them. It’s known as adaptive clothing and whilst there are a growing number of brands offering this, they’re not widely available on the high street. My next guests are trying to raise awareness of this with a fashion show. Andrea Jester is a leading hand and upper limb plastic surgeon at Birmingham Children’s Hospital, and Carmen Burkett is a fashion lecturer at South and City College in Birmingham. They’ve teamed up to put Andrea's young patients - or models as they’ve become - in touch with student designers.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. We have the woman of the moment, Ray, who just bagged the highest number of Brit Awards in one night, having been released by her label with her music to take away

that the executives didn't think would sell. Well, she's certainly having the last laugh and she's my first guest today. We're also going to be hearing from women taking to the seas and the legendary American feminist lawyer, Anita Hill. But have you heard of this thing? Don't know if you have.

Coming up Friday, International Women's Day. Droll jokes aside, and of course, there are some important things that get marked on that day and there are ways of using it in a very powerful way. But I do have a luxury, I recognise, of working on a programme that prioritises women every day of the year. But as I also see everybody from my local estate agent to prominent make-up brands trying to hitch their wagon to IWD, as it's called for short,

it can at least, it seems if you're a women's magazine, snag you some time with the Prime Minister. It's safe to say the women's mag Grazia is getting some heat this morning about its decision to ask Rishi Sunak and his wife Akshata Murthy about the so-called chore wars. Have a listen to this. I'm not a morning person. No, that's fair. But you also just don't like making the bed. I mean, it bugs me. So I actually sometimes come up back into the flat from the office after we've all left to make the bed. One of his special skills.

My thing is, let's just sort of be done with, move on. But Rishi likes to have it done. Nice and tidy. Nice and tidy. The Prime Minister and his wife, they're talking about how they make their bed. It's a long-held tradition of sorts that when some women's magazines and media The Prime Minister and his wife, they're talking about how they make their bed. It's a long held tradition of sorts that when some women's magazines and media get time with our politicians, they choose to go for domestic terrain. Do you agree with that approach?

There's some very strong comments online in response to those particular videos posted on Grazia's social media feed. But there are many other examples that you may be able to think back to, especially when we're approaching an election. And I'll give you the opportunity. I mean, I can't actually give you the opportunity. If I could, I would. And if I ever do get the chance on this programme to talk to Rishi Sunak, I'll take it and try and feed some of these in.

But if you did have a few minutes with Rishi Sunak on International Women's Day or any other day of the week, what would you ask the Prime Minister? How would you choose to use that time? You can text me some ideas on 84844. I'm aware it's about to be a budget and you might have some thoughts around the fiscal side of things. You may have some thoughts about something completely different. What would you ask and why on social media at BBC Women Women's Hour is how you get in touch. You can email me through the Women's Hour website or if WhatsApp's your preference, 03700 100 444.

Just watch those data charges straight in from Pansy says, how can you justify cutting taxes when public services are on their knees? You've kicked it off. Let's see where you go with that. Looking forward to those messages. But first to the woman of the moment ray if you hadn't heard of her or heard her name before this weekend you've probably heard it a fair few times since the south london singer-songwriter is the hottest star in music right now winning six brit awards this weekend beating the records

of david bowie and Adele in the process. She's far from an overnight success and her journey to the top has not been easy. Stuck in a record label contract, unable to release her own music, she was writing for many others, she went public with her frustrations in a now viral social media video. She left that label, became an independent artist and her subsequent album, the soulful pop infused My 21st Century Blues, reached number two in the charts and has sold over 60,000 copies in the UK. She since played Glastonbury's Pyramid Stage, won an Ivor Novello Award for her single Escapism and wrapped up her tour with a massive televised gig at the Royal Albert Hall, and beautiful it was. I had the pleasure of speaking to Ray yesterday afternoon following her unprecedented Brit success,

and I began by asking about her grandma, Agatha, who had joined her on stage as she accepted one of her many awards. Oh, my gosh. I mean, that woman has literally sacrificed so much for our family. She moved from Ghana when I was born to raise us. My parents both work full time. She sacrificed basically her entire life to take care of me and my sisters. She picked me up from school every single day and carried my cello.

I carry my flute. She is just an absolute superwoman who laid down her years to take care of us. And I will, that sacrifice is, you know, money can't buy that. An absolute superwoman. Well, as so many women are. I mean, I know you're close to your whole family, but also carrying a cello is no mean feat. So well done to her.

It's not. Carrying a cello and pushing my little sister my grandma was she was strong it must have been the craziest few days for you and I imagine you've had some amazing messages from some people that you couldn't have dreamt of who who's been the craziest what's been the craziest message who's got in touch with you who you couldn't have imagined just so many people and people I love and respect. I got a letter from Elton John, like, I can't wait to tell you what your music means to me.

I'm like, what is... Lewis, Lewis Hamilton, I'm so proud of you. Just people I've looked up to my whole life. A lot of people, because they're aware of this big change for you in such a short space of time after that really powerful video you put out on social media, talking about your need to be free of your original label deal and have your music out there. And now you're in this position. I mean, for you, putting out that message, what was that experience like? It seemed like a cry for freedom in some ways.

Yeah, I think at that point in my life, I was really at a breaking point. To be, I think, an artist, you really have to be resilient and you have to keep going and you have to just push through and push on, you know. But at that point, I think I just hit kind of a thing, you know. So none of that was really planned. It really was as desperate as it looked. You've talked a bit about the importance of faith and being able to get through.

How did that help you and other things? I mean, you write about alcohol, going out, taking drugs, trying to not feel. But what was it that got you to the other side and what was it about faith do you think having my faith and being able to just pray away I think everyone in this world has to find their own you know coping mechanisms some people meditate some people go to the mosque for me it's just praying and and that is just being able to like give me peace I don't honestly know how I would

have made it without finding that inner healing you know I also had a lot of things that I needed to forgive and let go a lot of things that could have made me really bitter and really ugly and really at one point really lose myself you know so I'm just really grateful that I have that you know it must be just an amazing feeling being proven right. You were right about your music. You were right in the face of those record label executives who said this isn't what you should be doing. This isn't the music. It won't sell. What's that feel like to be vindicated? You know, I just feel extremely grateful and very lucky. I feel like this can only be described as a miracle. I came back when I was releasing music again,

shrinking my expectations to the bare minimum of my goals being to build a fan base of people who cared and would want to come to a show and listen to an album or care about my perspective as an artist or what I would have to say. So everything that has happened has just been quadruple, triple, times a trillion, anything I could have ever imagined. I'm ridiculously overwhelmed and grateful, and it's a miracle, I think. I think it's a miracle.

Like, what? Let's talk about Ice Cream Man, because it's a really powerful song. You're talking to me on Woman's Hour, and I'm really mindful of that. And for those who don't know that song, you do detail sexual assault in the music industry, including your own experiences. And you talk about this happening to women in studios and those moments of power imbalances.

And I suppose I wonder now, speaking as a woman who's won a lot of awards a lot of critical acclaim and now that you've got this platform what do you think needs to change for women in the music industry? You know I think it's a really difficult one because when you are young and have huge dreams and you're hungry there is that power imbalance and sadly there's a culture of like seeing vulnerability and and taking it for granted it's or take exploiting it I don't know even what the words are you know you look everywhere in life and there's corruption and there's things that are wrong and there are things

there are injustices and things that need remedying and and I don't even know to be honest what the solutions are and I think it it even comes from a place where your voice is too or you feel too small to be heard or if you speak up you could jeopardize everything you've worked so hard for which is also that issue when you've got, you know... It's complicated when you're in that space. Yeah, it's a really difficult, it's a really sad, tricky thing, you know. That song, like, it's still really tough to sing and talk about.

I think one in three shows I'm still a mess. The last show, Two Days Before the Brits, I just couldn't even hold it together. But I sing that song because it allows me to be loud about something I was so silent about for so many years of my life, do you know what I mean? So I don't know what the answers are, but I do know the way I'm so not alone in that feeling and how many of us suffer with these things that are so awkward and uncomfortable to talk about it shouldn't be that way anyway and it and it shouldn't be something to be embarrassed of or something that we're silent about do you know what I mean that's suffering on our own yeah it's deep it is deep and

I think your music can take people and music generally can be medicine. It can help people. It can get you to a different place. You also have a lot of euphoria in your songs and joy and attitude. We need a bit of attitude. Yes, all the different emotions. You're really close to your family as you started our conversation talking about and I understand that both your parents quit their jobs to manage you and look after your career is that right that's that's amazing do you get on as a family come on tell me the truth now oh completely joking I adore my family some people

find it hard though working with their family don't they they couldn't imagine being managed by their parents and I just wanted to hear how that really was. No, and I get that. Do you know, I got really lucky. My dad is the sweetest guy. He has like no ego. He's like a nerd. He loves spreadsheets.

You know, he spent all of his life working in insurance. His work before kind of gave him the experience or like the ability to be able to really be good at this job for me he's so passionate and like come on we can do this optimistic and lovely like I've really got blessed and then my mum worked in mental health for 30 years at the NHS so that is like a godsend yeah so it's it's a it's a dream it dream. Well, it's been lovely talking to you. And just finally, if I can, we asked our listeners this week who their fairy godmothers have been in their life,

the women or men who have guided them. We had fellow musician C-MAT on the programme who said for her it was Charli XCX. I understand you also have had a relationship in that way with her and you got some guidance. I wanted to give you the opportunity to talk about that as well because of how women can come to each other's sides. No, I completely adore that woman.

I think when I started in the music industry, like all the men in my life or around me or in control of my stuff was very, it was very like there's one seat, be paranoid of her, be paranoid of her, be paranoid of her, find your own sound. You know, it was this whole, I'm like 17 years old, like feeling exceptionally insecure and especially about other women. And Charlie was the breaker of that for me. She poured so much love and time into me. She took time out of her busy life to direct one of my first music videos and she invited me to her house she was like okay here's what you're gonna do take this hairbrush

we're gonna look in the mirror here's a song that you can vibe hit find your angle okay and i was so moved by that experience i will never ever ever forget what that girl brought into me and i'm so proud of her also I don't know if you've seen her new music video for her song Von Dutch but don't play with that girl she is an artist a-r-t-i-s-t. Ray huge congratulations I can see it means the absolute world to you and it means so much to your fans as well. Oh thank you much. Thanks for taking the time. Ray there with a lot of her music interspersed, which is a joy to hear and a joy to share with you this morning. And it was great to be able to talk to her and put some of those questions to her. We've got some lovely messages with those of you appreciating her music and also

a message here. My daughter saw Ray in Glasgow last week. Verdict, best gig ever. Congratulations on all of the awards. Many messages coming in in answer to this question. If you had a few minutes or so with the Prime Minister, what would you use your time to ask? Let me give you a flavour. I'll go through as many as I can. Christine, I'd like you to ask him what he's going to do

to ensure working people are not living in poverty. I would like to ask the Prime Minister to improve maternity services. Going into hospital to have a baby is foreboding. Did his wife have their babies in an NHS hospital, says Angela. Linda, I would like to ask the Prime Minister about the thousands of women who won't get a state pension until the age of 66 or 67, but thought retirement age would be 60 as a state pension would be paid from that age. Another, home students not being offered accommodation even with disability while overseas students being welcomed with open arms as they pay higher fees. The cost of private rent is too high for many. Daughter has also ruled out London universities as private accommodation costs are too high and most of the home students at London

open days have parents who currently live in London. Another, why as a female voter would I go for the Conservative Party? Would I vote for them when they allow vulnerable female children to be stripped by male officers in young offenders institutions designed for males? It's 2024, so it's referring to a story from yesterday. Why are women and girls treated so unfairly and harshly by so many in our areas and different areas of our justice system. Another, I would ask Rishi Sunak why it isn't a priority for him to fully fund police vetting and police vetting procedures to stop violent, dysfunctional men who go on to murder or abuse women joining the police force. We can't keep saying lessons to be learned. I could go on. You have many ideas. That's why it's important to hear from you. Not as of yet. Could be still coming. No one suggested asking who loads the dishwasher or feeds the children.

Grazia magazine, keeping in a long line of tradition of some women's magazines and media ahead of International Women's Day, chose to go for the personal and the domestic in a series of three videos that's been released on its Instagram channel. It's safe to say that the videos and I'm sure there's an article to go alongside it too, but these videos in particular have landed like a stone with some. Women have been leaving comments online that don't pull any punches below these videos. Sorry, just no, reads one. Another, there's something disturbing about asking them playful questions about food and cooking while so many are struggling to buy food.

And another, this is the most painful tone-deaf thing I've seen in a long time, a terrible way to mark International Women's Day. It would have been better if you hadn't bothered. This undermines all of our work. We've invited Grazia onto the programme this morning, but they have declined and say they will not be commenting. What should we make then of this approach by some women's media outlets? Are they asking questions some want to know the answers to or is it totally retrograde? And is International Women's Day a bit of a trap when it comes to what's seen as female issues and interests? Lindsay Nicholson's on the line, writer and former editor of various women's magazines, including Good Housekeeping and Cosmopolitan. Lindsay, I'll go straight in. Did you have a

reaction to Grazia's interview with the Prime Minister and his wife? Yeah, I think Grazia played an absolute blinder. We're talking about them now. It was all over the Today programme. It's all over Twitter. Well done, Grazia. I don't think it's so great for the Prime Minister.

And I think there's an important lesson, which is that just because an interview is an adversarial doesn't mean it's not lethal. What about the reaction from those who seem like they care about this particular brand, but we know that this isn't the first time women's magazines have strayed into this territory and are disappointed with the use of the time? Well, I would disagree because we are talking about it. And then that sends you back to look at what else was said. I don't actually think there was that much else that said. Honestly, any day of the week, you can look in any form of media and find out what the Prime Minister thinks about all of the very important or many of the very important issues that the listeners raised. I do think the issue about the WASPI women and the pensions, whether at 60 or 67, is important, but he probably wasn't going to say anything about those anyway. So I think they've made absolutely stunning use of the time they were

allowed. Politicians very rarely give much time to women's magazines. And when you get that rare opportunity, you have to use it. Why do you think, though, there has been the reaction from some of the people who care about Grazia in the way so if we just go to you say it's beautiful that we're talking about Grazia it's been a stunning use of time but Grazia also will care about their readers and they'll care about people who engage with their brand and you can see that below in the comments and some of the comments I've read out which are far from unique. I think the main problem that all print publications have at the moment is awareness when there's so much coming at us from all direction yes they're going to

have disappointed some people um i don't think that will come through in the sales i think this issue will sell out i mean the issue may sell out but you've not got a video in an issue, I suppose. And that's the changing set. I mean, the women's magazine market is only going in one direction, as you well know. It's absolutely, you know, in some ways, it can't even be compared to how it was. It's on its knees. You're thinking about it from sales, but the brand and how people relate to it, is that not of concern? I think that I would not have done that.

I've interviewed prime ministers in my role as editor of magazines. I haven't done that. But then I'm not editing a magazine in this very tough environment. I'm not editing Grazia. I think they probably made the best call they could in this environment. Do you not find it remotely retrograde to ask about the prime minister making his bed? You know, you don't have to do WASPy women. You don't have to do issues around food availability and food affordability through to the environment.

You don't have to do that. But of all the choices, do you not think there is something very stereotypical about a women's mag asking about the domestic in this way? And especially in an era of spin where people don't feel they get the sort of clear answers anyway? They retrograde the way that communications teams working for the prime minister and for ministers and senior politicians view women's magazines. They give them very little access. It's very, very hard to get an interview at all. Unlike with main news media, you don't end up with an ongoing relationship. You get one interview. That's your lot. You're not going to get another interview for years. So because of that, that sorry just to come in on that exact point yeah and that that is a really interesting point and i think pulling back how this works is important as well to to those receiving it to those listening to us talk now and i you know i think that's that's fascinating and something that i've explored and and continue to explore especially working here at Woman's Hour. But because those titles that are specifically aimed at women get so little time,

is it not then a waste? We're sitting here talking about it. How long have we been talking about it? Four minutes. We wouldn't have talked about it. Yeah, we wouldn't have talked about it this long. We might have done. If it had been about cost of living, we're not sure. Well, accountability has always led to some of the finest interviews being talked about across the media. If you do a decent interview, it will get talked about.

Yeah, look, I absolutely agree. And when I was editing, I went out of my way to try and get these interviews. But, you know, I was turned down by Theresa May who then went off and gave an interview with American Vogue about clothes and that didn't work out well for her probably worked out better for the magazine I was on than it did for her you know there are two parties in any interview. There are indeed and you made the point well around you know how it then works for the politician and the subject. Just a final thought, I suppose, taking a bigger step back. If women's mags in any way are going to survive, and largely it will be as these digital brands now, as more and more we think, perhaps there'll be a renaissance, who knows, what do you think they have to try and get right that perhaps in this case, it seems for some people they have disappointed? I think that actually I would disagree about women's magazines surviving in digital form.

I think that actually the paper product, I think there's something very nice about having a high quality paper product with surprising content that you wouldn't expect to find elsewhere. So the content's just not good enough because the sales right now tell a different story, don't they? I would say that more should be invested in content and more in production values. Okay, so you're only going to go in one direction if perhaps you don't make that investment? I think so because you can get your digital content anywhere for free so if you're going to sell a high value luxury product it needs to be something lovely you can hold in your hands. Have you got a question you want to ask the Prime Minister? I'll give you the chance we're giving our listeners is there something something right there that you would do with I know i've put you on the spot you have put me on the spot so i'll go back to the listener that raised the waspy women

that's where you go yeah yeah that's where you go well i appreciate uh we all do your insights this morning and that experience uh lindsey nicholson writer and former editor of various women's magazines including good housekeeping andkeeping and Cosmopolitan. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. More messages coming in about what you'd ask.

Anne, good morning to you. You say I'd ask the Prime Minister why he can't see that by investing more in the NHS and especially in its staff would automatically reduce the waiting lists, therefore improving the health of the nation and enabling people to get back to work. This would then solve some of the labour shortages or is that too logical?

I'd ask Rishi, as the father of two young girls, can he imagine them not being able to afford sanitary products and the impact that that would then have on their lives? Poverty is real. What will he do to eradicate it? And so those messages keep coming in. Now, I mentioned we're going to speak to some women

taking to the water, taking to the seas. Year-round sea swimming has become very popular again in recent years, particularly with women. In fact, sometimes you can barely move on winter Sunday mornings near some beaches for joyful gangs of middle-aged women, often in dry robes and woolly hats, clutching flasks, and all ages in between. But even if that's you, could you imagine swimming for 15 hours straight?

The English Channel holds an allure among endurance swimmers the world over. The first British woman to complete it was Mercedes Gleitz, a name you might now be becoming familiar with. She achieved this feat in 1927 and a new film, Vindication Swim, celebrates that moment in history. Kirsten Callaghan plays Mercedes. She joins me now.

And also we're joined by Sarah Philpott, who's aiming to become the first woman to swim the seven most dangerous sea channels around the world solo. And welcome to you both. Kirsten, if I can start with you. How was the training for this? Because I believe you had to do quite a lot yourself. Yes, I trained for three months before we started filming.

And then the filming took three years. So I continued the training throughout those three years. And I always joke that it was very difficult and uncomfortable but overall it was so empowering to do that training and to challenge my body in the way that Mercedes had challenged her so for me it was such a powerful experience. And what was that like in terms of preparing and that physical approach you had to take? It was all about being pragmatic. So for me, it was so vital to get used to the colder climates.

So I would swim around the Palace Pier in Brighton and the distance going around that pier enabled me to endure different conditions. We'd go out in windy conditions, rain, sunshine. So just experiencing all the different things that the channel can throw at you was really important. Why do you think Mercedes wanted to do it? Well, I get asked this question all the time. I think she found out she had a natural talent for swimming when she was a teenager. She attempted to swim back to England while she was in Germany with her parents. So she found out that she was a very strong swimmer. And she didn't make it back to England,

but she did swim this body of water to the Netherlands that no one's ever survived swimming. And she swam it in the middle of the night in a storm. So that's when she knew, wow, I've got a talent here. In a swimming costume? It wasn't in a swimming costume. She was in her clothes and she just took her shoes off. And when she got to the other side, the only thing she could think of was,

oh, I can't approach these men on the other side on the beach because I haven't got shoes on. And not, oh, wow, I've managed to do something incredible. That was just her first thought. And then she saw a group of women and went over to them and then they explained where she where she was and and her parents were um notified but um yeah she's always had this incredibly unique relationship with the water she said that nothing moves her like like the sea and

she felt that the sea understood her and she felt she understood it too. And so I think for Mercedes, she just felt so liberated in water compared to how she felt on land, where she felt quite oppressed by society. And we know this because she wrote things down, she shared these thoughts. Yeah, she shared these thoughts, she kept a diary. Right, and so that's how we've got these insights.'s the film's called Vindication Swim because a rival claimed that they had done the same swim and she had to do it again yeah after breaking this incredible record to to prove the doubters wrong let me bring you in at this point Sarah Mercedes

you've swum the channel I should say and Mercedes was one of your inspirations, I believe. Yes, yes. So I swam the English Channel in the year 2020. And as soon as I'd done it, that sensation of what's next? What do I do next? And I found out about this challenge called the original Triple Crown, which was first done in the 1970s and four men had completed it but never by a woman so I set out to become the first woman to swim the original triple crown which is the English Channel England to France the North Channel Island to Scotland and the Bristol Channel which is England to Wales And in my pursuit of taking on that challenge, while I was training for the North Channel, that's when I first came across Mercedes, because she was the first person to attempt to swim the North Channel. And Martin Strain writes a beautiful book about Tom Blower,

who ended up being the first person in 1947. But in 1928 and 1929, Mercedes made eight attempts, four in 1928 and four in 1929. And to stand on the start line of the North Channel once is, for most swimmers, even by today's standards, is terrifying. To attempt to do it eight separate times, she had such utter, dogged determination, this woman. And that is what I found truly inspiring about Mercedes, that she just never, ever gave up. She went on and on and on. What is it for you, though? What's your motivation? Why are you getting in these very difficult situations?

Yeah, I think for me, very first of all, I did a channel relay when I was 20, and it was so cold, and you're on a team of six. And I remember joking and saying, well, when I get my middle age spread in my 40s, I'll give a solo a go. And it was really because I've lived in Dover all my life. And I am acutely aware that Dover is like living at the foot of Mount Everest.

It's the most iconic piece of water in the world. And I am lucky enough to live on the beach right there. You could just look at it. I could. Speaking from experience. That was what I did when I was there. And so really the year I swam the English Channel, it all happened actually accidentally

because it was the year of COVID. I had no intention at the start of the year of swimming it. And it just, because of COVID, I was going down to the beach to take to the water because we were locked up in our houses. And I thought I could sneak out and nobody would know. And I could get my more than my one hour's worth of government allowed exercise. And it just really went on.

And I just kept swimming. And then one of the coaches on the beach turned around and said, you do realize you've just qualified to swim the English Channel because you have to do six hours in under 16 degrees temperature of water. And they said, all the international swimmers can't make it this year because of COVID. There's loads of spaces. So I went into work, told my boss, and next thing I know, everything's paid for and I'm off.

What is your line of work? So I do business development. Okay, so nothing to do with no no so i was sport or swimming okay because i was incredibly grateful and and um and always will be um and um and so i had that opportunity to swim and then of course i came across so many wonderful amazing talented swimmers that came to dover I just couldn't fail to be inspired by the people I was meeting and they were telling me about the swims they were doing around the world and I just felt um but but for me as a very personal thing it is my place of solace um I

think when you mentioned at the start about so many groups in particular perhaps women that you see throwing themselves into the water um it's it's i i think when you go into really cold water your body does go into survival mode you know you you take sharp short sharp breaths and and all the blood goes to your core and any cares and troubles that you have in the world just dissipate because your body is in that survival mode and it's it's almost like a you know a drug it's like a adrenaline rush that you get and uh and you get this lovely sense of peacefulness and and just that lovely sense of well-being which uh kirsten and i were talking about because you experienced that yes when when you were were doing your filming and your training

so i mean it's i suppose just to come back to you Kirsten and thinking about Mercedes but also now your own experiences I think you know it's also striking uh the the solace the the feelings that women take from doing this but at the same time you could think to what you said about Mercedes why are women needing to go to the water you know why are they in a position where perhaps that feels better than day-to-day life and that's also a different way of looking at this I think it's like Sarah said like my first plunge I suppose into the cold water I suddenly felt so alive I felt every part of my body wake up and I was taken out of my head and it was just about my breath and making it to the other side of the pool. And I think just sometimes in doing, in connecting to your body in such a deep way where it feels sometimes like survival. Sarah mentioned that when she's in really cold waters, you do feel it's all about surviving.

I think that is so wonderful to experience as a human being, to be that connected to your body and see how it works and using breath just to keep going. And I think there's a beauty in the simplicity of it. When people talk about it, and I'm always interested as someone who has chronic pain um for dealing with that a little bit in terms of just disrupting your body but also uh you know mental pain you know mental health and the impact on that and and you know and then how you motivate yourself while you're on and doing the swim and uh sarah talk to me about names on on the arm do you how do you motivate oh yes, yes. So my very first year of channel swimming,

I think the biggest thing always is that they say to swim a channel, it's only 20% physicality and actually 80% of it is the power of your mind and really being able to focus. And, of course, you have to go through so many pain barriers when you're in that really cold water. And so if I knew I had to do eight laps of Dover Harbour, I would write eight names down, eight names down my arm to distract me. So on lap one, I'd be like, right, I'm thinking about this person and how I know them and why, you know, just stories and things. And it was just like a distraction tactic.

But now I don't seem to have to do that quite so much. I've never mastered meditation out of the water, but I have now mastered it in the water and to really sort of go into that very peaceful place where you can really shut yourself down and stay focused. Maybe that's why more and more people are also drawn to it. Yes, yes, it's the beautiful mindfulness of it all. But I so admire Mercedes.

I mean, I think one of the things I would love to say about her, though, that really takes my breath away, is that I have all the mod cons of modern technology. And she wore a woolen swimming costume. They didn't have swimming goggles. They had motorcycle goggles, maybe aviation goggles. Yes, we used those in the film, an authentic 100-year-old costume and the motorcyclist goggles. She had no satellite navigation, no sports nutrition, no high-speed rescue boat to come and get her.

She was very much at the peril and the mercy of the waves. And I am in utter awe of what she achieved and her determination. And she travelled the world, which in that era and the age she was, she's just such an icon for women in her approach to life. And that's why I love her so much. We didn't even get to Jellyfish Stings, which I've got some experience of. It's not all pain-free in the water. Thank you very much to both of you. I should say Vindication Swim, the film,

is in cinemas from this Friday. You're listening there to Kirsten Callaghan, who plays Mercedes Gleitz, if you want that name again, and Sarah Philpott, who does this herself, but with mod cons, but still pretty difficult. Thank you very much. Thank you. Now, looking ahead again to this weekend,

it is the Oscars, the first ceremony since the Academy introduced new diversity rules for all candidates. But almost seven years since the start of the Me Too movement, has Hollywood really become a safer place for the women who work there? According to the latest survey by the Hollywood Commission, an organisation set up in 2017 by senior industry women to combat workplace harassment and discrimination in the entertainment industry, there's still a lot of work to do. The report says it's now easier for entertainment workers to report workplace misconduct. But the bad news is that even fewer believe this is actually making a substantial difference. I've been speaking to the chair of the Hollywood Commission, the groundbreaking activist, academic and lawyer Anita Hill. You may remember in 1991, this is why her name might come to mind, she testified that Supreme Court nominee Clarence Thomas had sexually harassed her while they were working together.

Allegations that Thomas, who has gone on to sit as a Supreme Court justice ever since, has always denied. I started by asking Anita Hill for the report's key findings. Well, there has been change. There's been change in awareness. People know that the laws exist. They're aware that the protections can extend beyond sexual harassment, and they're rejecting the notion that this kind of behaviour is acceptable. So that's improvement. However, even though there is increased awareness, there is still a lack of trust in systems. And there is not a sense that for workers throughout the system that anything has changed for the better in terms of their work conditions. Because just looking at your report, the Hollywood Commission reports, it shows that workers are more disillusioned than they were three years ago.

The majority, 56 percent, compared to 52 percent in 2020. As you say, reporting minimal or no progress. Greater proportion of men, 62%, compared to 55% four years ago, now agreeing with women that powerful people were unlikely to experience accountability. And the number of people who said they'd experienced workplace retaliation

after reporting incidents had jumped from 21% to 31%. So you seem to have this mix of whether people are reporting or not, whether they feel anything will change or not. And if they do, a jump in the retaliation, as that's described. Yeah, retaliation has always been a significant problem. It's deterred some people from coming forward. But what is encouraging, they are stepping up because there's greater awareness that they have rights and that they have protections and they're willing to take risks. There is an awakening. But I would just say, you know, that's one of the things that people don't understand is that when you have in place systems to address a problem for many people their rate of complaint will go up just because they're just now learning that

these protections exist so it's sort of an irony that people expect that complaints are going to automatically go down. But what we feel like is that there is almost something like a backlog, you know, that there's a build up because things have not been addressed for years. Do you understand why some people feel that the change is very, very slow and not that obvious in the entertainment industry? Yes, absolutely. It is slow. It's slow everywhere. Change is slow. We're talking about systems that have been in place for 100 plus years in the Hollywood community. Sorry to just break in, but it's not just systems i suppose it's it's people you know it's how people are with each other and and how they are with with as you well know

better than anyone with power differentials it's it's just it's i suppose you know when you have that sort of energy that comes about from an explosion like a movement like me too there's so much optimism isn't there at that moment uh and there's so much optimism, isn't there, at that moment? And there's so much hope. And then you look now all these years on, and it can be hard for people to feel like it's going in the right direction. What do you say to them? Well, there's clearly hope, because people are still coming to our survey. They're still complaining. People are still complaining against employers. I mean, throughout, it's not just that people have given up. I mean, you know, we've had over the past few years, we've had walkouts on businesses because of sexual harassment and the unwillingness of leadership to respond. We've had numerous lawsuits and some of them have yielded very good results. And of course, it is a behavior that is problematic and in some cases loathsome. But you cannot stop the behavior until you change the culture and provide systems for dealing with them. Right

now, what we are living with is the legacy of systems that were just not meant to take care of the problem. They were meant to hide the problem in many cases. And so that is why we're continuing to move forward and saying that you can't just end this by acknowledging the bad behaviour of a few folks. How important is having a diverse range of voices in leadership positions though as well? Because if you look at the list this year for Oscar nominations, a third of all nominees this year are women. That's a three year high. 19% hail from underrepresented groups, up from 15% in 2023. There's Lily Gladstone making Oscar history as the first Native American nominated for Best Actress. And yet just one woman among the five nominated to receive a nod for Best Director. Where do you come out on that? We need to diversify at all levels throughout entertainment. It's not just what the motion pictures and television and all of the entertainment looks like, who's in it.

What is very much a key to the problem is who's leading it, who's making the rules. This year, what we found was in terms of the bullying and the harassment and the discrimination that's found in the entertainment industry, what we found was that cis white males were more likely to think that the problems have been adequately resolved. And unless you have more diversity in the management that is making decisions about the bad behavior, you will continue to have that bad behavior because the management thinks, you know, typically will think that there's no problem to be dealt with. That's why we are working to build up trust throughout the entertainment industry.

That's why we continue to do work, training bystander and unconscious bias training. That's why we are creating platforms that empower workers. And that's why we believe that we can make change. We believe in this change. Is that what keeps you going with this particular fight, Anita, that hope? What keeps you going? Well, it is the hope, but it's also the problem. Having experienced harassment myself, having seen it, you know, I keep both those things in mind. I'm a realist in the sense I know how hard it is to undo years of cultural and social inequalities. But I also am a realist in that I come from a family of a mother and father who were born in the early 20th century,

and I see how much change they experienced in their lifetimes. And then me and my siblings as a generation that followed have experienced in our lifetimes. And so I'm a realist, I'm hopeful, and I'm willing to do the work. And there are many, many other people out there who are just as willing and just as committed as I am. Anita Hill there. Messages coming in in response to what you'd asked the Prime Minister, if you had some time with him off the back of an interview with Grazia magazine ahead of International Women's Day, which focused on the chore wars and what goes on at home between him and his wife when it comes to the domestics. Catherine says, triggered by your mention, I just watched it.

The Grazia interview, I think it's insightful, gives more of a feel for who Rishi is. Not foolish of him to have done it, but women-oriented, no, it isn't. I'm not a fan of Rishi Sunak, but the bar for men in power is so low that I'm pleasantly surprised to learn he does so much as to fill and empty his own dishwasher. We have a male listener who's got in touch, and he says his male cat, Elmo,

perhaps it was actually better and more productive to focus on domestic issues, such as dishwasher loading and bed making, because at least we maybe heard the truth rather than the normal I fully understand response given by politicians when confronted with questions on homelessness, food and fuel poverty, when they clearly don't understand, says Simon.

I think that's interesting from Catherine, though, about whether it's linked to women or not, loading and unloading the dishwasher. Well, as Paris Fashion Week becomes the latest one to close to a chorus of praise, is fashion as groundbreaking as it needs to be for all? Children with a disability or limited mobility often need some type of adjustment to garments

so they can wear them. It's known as adaptive clothing to some. And whilst there's a growing number of brands offering this, they're not widely available on the high street. My next guests are trying to raise awareness of this issue with a fashion show they're holding later today. Andrea Yester is leading hand and upper limb plastic surgeon at Birmingham Children's Hospital. And Carmen Burkett is a fashion lecturer at Southland City College, also in Birmingham. They've teamed up to put Andrea's young patients, or models as they've become, in touch with students who have designed clothes for them to wear.

Morning to you both. Andrea, I believe this was your brainchild. Tell us what inspired you. Good morning, Emma. Thank you very much for inviting me and us. What inspired me? I love fashion Emma. Thank you very much for inviting me and us. What inspired me? I love fashion. I love to buy. But I have noticed very early on that a lot of my patients don't have the same freedom I have just to go to Primark or to Next to go to a high street because they have chronic disabilities. They have mobility problems. They're in a wheelchair, they can't do buttons, they can't move their arms, their legs are shorter, their arms are shorter and therefore they usually wear comfortable loungewear but they would like to wear Primark next and all these wonderful high street retailers. So we tried to team up initially with high street retailers before COVID. But I guess back then that wasn't so en vogue. And it's just starting now.

But I was in the wonderful situation that I met Carmen from the Southern City College Birmingham. And we discussed this idea. And we felt that's a win-win situation for the students who learn about adaptive clothing but equally for the young people who would be in the limelight with hair makeup and everything get to design their own clothing and then present it in front of a very appreciative audience. Tell me about your role in this then Carmen and how you feel this may benefit the students you're working with? My role is I lead on the project so I met Andrea three years ago and she came in with the proposal and it's an amazing opportunity because we need live projects to bring fashion to life for our students and this one has got much more of a story it's not just fashion it's also taking into account people's lives practicality and you know

when we're talking our students are 16 to 18 predominantly that are on this project they also know as a young person they want to dress they want the way they want to dress they want to have you know they want to buy what They want to buy what they want to buy. And they're meeting these young children that don't have that option. They can't just go to a shop and pick something up because they want to. We have one young girl that's never worn a pair of jeans because the closures are too difficult for her to use. So that's, you know, it's just the real starting point.

So they're learning. And Carmen, some of, no, please don't apologise. I was just going to say some of the adaptations that could be made are relatively simple, you know, whether it's adding elastic to trousers or making buttons magnetic so you could still have the aesthetic of a button tell us a bit more about that yeah so when we meet the when we meet the patients and they're becoming our models we talked about what they'd like so they tell us they want magnets on their shirts as simple as having magnets on their school shirts instead of buttons so that when they're at school they can get themselves dressed after PE um we can add velcro we can add side openings to garments not everything

has to be opened at the front you know we can have side velcro we can add elastic but do it discreetly you know not so it's something really obvious um there's so many you know we've got all these um amazing technologies that could be applied to these garments you know we could have why can't we have something like a wi-fi zip that you could click and you know it becomes released or something because we can do it for toys and games so why can't we start to introduce it into our clothing um and it's really it's thinking we need to think we need to think about what we can do and then make it achievable andrea the fashion show is on tonight is that right yes yes today at six o'clock dickbeth campus in birmingham

and how are you feeling ahead of it and what are you hoping to achieve? Well, first of all, I'm very nervous as always because how it will be received. But what I've seen, it's the third time we are doing it. Everybody cries because a lot of the families will be coming, their relatives will be coming. And obviously for the kids, this is i hope life-changing because they get confidence but a lot of times they it's the first time they walk a walkway a runway some of the kids um last year a girl had selective mutism and she she never took her earphones down because she didn't like the noise. But when she went on the runway, she took it off and she was yelling and screaming and everybody was crying.

I think it's a very emotional event for the families. But the second thing that we are really hoping is that we are raising awareness how easy it is to make adaptive clothing. We hope that the students who've done it, they go on in their careers and they may make that their business. I suppose, yeah, that's the hope, isn't it, with this, Carmen? Yes. From the first year, we have a student, Izzy, and she's currently finishing off her degree in Birmingham City and her dissertation is on adaptive fashion so you know in three years it's one person that's about to enter the industry and we're speaking to our learners about considering this as one of their career pathways. And I suppose just educating the wider public as well

and having this conversation today that people may not have even heard the phrase and even known that this exists. Well, good luck for this evening. I hope it's a brilliant success. Thank you very much. Carmen Burkett there, fashion lecturer at South and City College in Birmingham.

And Andrea Yester, leading hand and upper limb plastic surgeon at Birmingham Children's Hospital. It sounds like it's going to be a fantastic evening, albeit an emotional one, for all the reasons that you may imagine. And thank you so much to all of you for your questions today, which I'm going to try and remember, should if I get a chance to interview the Prime Minister, certainly on this side of the election. Fascinating to hear those. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm David Yelland. And I'm Simon Lewis. We're the hosts of Radio 4's When It Hits The Fan, the podcast which looks at how big names and big companies manage their PR. But what about your own personal PR?

How do you better manage your own reputation at work? We're here to help. With a series of special bonus episodes, we'll bring a little wisdom and share some tips to hopefully make you better at that job. Quick Wins is a series of short and snappy episodes with lots of advice aimed at improving your working life. If that sounds useful, then please listen and subscribe on BBC Sounds.

Just search for When It Hits The Fan. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.