Woman's Hour - Reality TV star Georgia Harrison on 'revenge porn', ‘Seven Winters in Tehran’, Fairness in sport, Romance on the bus.

Episode Date: March 20, 2023

Known for shows like Love Island and The Only Way is Essex, social media influencer Georgia Harrison talks to Nuala McGovern about her new TV documentary. It follows her successful legal battle against her former partner who filmed and shared a sex video of the two of them without her consent on the OnlyFans websiteA couple’s creative bus stop marriage proposal has captured the hearts of social media users, after Nuala spotted and shared it last week. We hear from Alice Ehrlich who tweeted her to say “this bus stop is where it’s at”  after she got on a bus from that same stop and sat next to a man she'd go on to marry... At the heart of the debate on whether transgender women athletes should compete in women's sport involves the complex balance of inclusion, sporting fairness and safety. It's likely to be firmly under the spotlight again in the coming weeks as World Athletics is expected to make a much anticipated decision on whether they will continue to allow transgender women to compete in female international track and field events. The BBC’s Alex Capstick will give us the latest and Nuala is joined by Dr Seema Patel from Nottingham Trent University and former Olympic swimmer Sharron Davies to discuss. In 2007, when she was just 19 years old, Reyhaneh Jabbari was sentenced to death for the murder of the man who tried to rape her. She spent seven years on death row, dying at the age of 26. She is heralded as a symbol of resistance for women in Iran and now a new documentary tells her story. ‘Seven Winters in Tehran’ brings together secretly filmed footage, and testimonies from family and friends Nuala talks to the director of the film Steffi Niederzoll and Reyhaneh’s mother Shole Pakravan. Presenter Nuala McGovern Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. I hope you had a good weekend. I spent part of mine looking at my Twitter feed. I posted a little tweet on Wednesday about a bus timetable that I saw, although in the same font and design as a London bus timetable. It took me a second to realise it was, in fact, a marriage proposal. Not for me.

The stops were Holloway, Caledonian Road, Charlotte. Seven years ago, we met at this bus stop. Now, will you marry me? Well, I took a photo wondering what happened to Charlotte and I asked it on Twitter. And would you believe the man who proposed, Rory, got in touch with a photo of aforementioned Charlotte saying yes at that bus stop.

And let me tell you, there are a lot of hopeless romantics on Twitter because that tweet is currently at 3.6 million views. And the story doesn't end there. Alice tweeted in response about also finding romance at that same bus stop. Alice is going to tell you her story this hour and if you have found love on

public transport, I want to hear your romantic tale this morning. You can text the programme 84844 on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. Also, you may have seen that many are awaiting a decision expected on Thursday by World Athletics,

that's the governing body for track and field, on whether transgender women will be able to compete in international female events in the future. So we're going to bring you up to date on where we are with that and also hear a discussion with differing opinions on what the outcome should be. Plus, we'll bring you the story of a young woman,

Rahana Jabari. She was executed in Iran in 2014. She had been convicted of killing a man she said was trying to sexually abuse her. There's now a documentary about her life

and also what she endured. And this comes as the lives and freedoms of Iranian women are under an international spotlight. We have Rohana's mother and also the director with us this hour on Woman's Hour. But first, let us begin with Georgia Harrison. She's been a social media influencer, known for appearing on television shows like Love Island and The Only Way is Essex.

She's now a presenter and a campaigner. After becoming a victim of image-based sexual abuse. It's often referred to inaccurately as revenge porn. And her ex-boyfriend, Stephen Bear, shared a video of them having sex on the OnlyFans website. She waved her right to anonymity early on in this case. Bear, who is 33, captured the footage on CCTV. That was on August 2nd 2020, in his garden without Georgia's knowledge. He was jailed, you might have seen, for 21 months at Chelmsford Crown Court on March 3rd. Now Georgia has made a documentary about her successful legal fight.

It's going to air tonight on ITV2 and ITVX. And she joins me now for her first radio interview. You're very welcome, Georgia. Hello. Hello. And thank you for having me in. I watched your documentary. It is compelling, shocking, sad. So sorry that you had to go through all that, which you really take us through that process, but also the process of taking Stephen Baird to court for what happened. It took two years from when you first reported it to the police, such a long time. And I was wondering watching it, where did you get that resilience to continue? I honestly just think from my friends and family, like they are so

supportive. And I think they were just upset about what had happened as I was and they didn't want me to like let him get away with it so there were times when I wanted to give up but they really pulled me through and I also think in hindsight the fact that I've been doing television for a number of years prior to this I really did build up a bit of a thicker skin so perhaps when trolls and people on like social media were trying to make me change my mind I'm sort of used to having to come up against that sort of adversity and move past it. It's such a 21st century documentary, I think, because the whole thing is created through social media that was there during this relationship and also during this case, I should say. For those who don't know you or Stephen Bear, how would you describe

your relationship previously? So honestly, it was an on-off romantic relationship. So we actually got together on a TV show called The Challenge and we were staying out there in Namibia for eight weeks. There was about five British people and everyone else was American and they'd, you know, been filming for this show for about 10 years. that's where we became close close romantically but then for the next couple of years we were just friends really but it would often turn into more than friends you know one of them relationships where I probably could have done better but because we were always filming together and he lived opposite me and our lives were so intertwined it was just hard for me to put my self-worth before my feelings I guess because he was far from ideal I think it's fair to say even before this incident as a boyfriend

yes and I think I always looked him as someone that wouldn't be my boyfriend but where we were in such a confined situation with no phones and stuff I really did just fall for his charm whilst I was there and I honestly I found it hard to resist. I know looking at him now, you can't really see that, but he did used to have a certain way about him. And when you've got no phone, family or option to walk out of the door,

it's very easy to get trapped into that. So the sex was consensual, I will say in this particular incident, but the sharing of that imagery was not. You were aware that there was rumours that he may have filmed you having sex with him in his garden on CCTV. And I'm just wondering what it was like

as that realisation came through of the enormity of what had happened. Maybe you can tell our listeners. Well, he actually told me on the evening after that potentially the sexual act had been on CCTV cameras and obviously I'd still been drinking, I'd been with him all day and I'd been getting along really well with him

because that's usually what people do, they manipulate you to feel safe. And obviously at first I was really worried but he was just completely acting like it was a mistake and although deep down I didn't believe I was really worried, but he was just completely acting like it was a mistake. And although deep down I didn't believe it was a mistake, I still didn't think that he'd recorded it with the intention of distributing it or especially not selling it online. So at first I was okay. And then in the evening I saw him send it to someone on his phone.

And that is when I just started crying and panicking. And I thought, you know, would he actually, would he do this to me? Like, would you do this to me? And he just really reassured me and told me everything I wanted to hear and was like, look, I would never do that to you and I said, I would get you done for revenge porn if you did. Like, you know you can go to prison for it. And he was like, I know, do you think I'd be stupid enough to do that? So after that experience, I just was foolish enough to believe I could trust

him. I told him to delete it, but I knew it would still be like on the hard drive. And yeah, I just believed that he wouldn't do that to me or himself. And then you were trying to figure out how far had this gone? Because there were people saying they had seen it yeah and again social media is such a part of this because that's where you started looking for evidence yeah I mean this is where like along the road I really did swallow so much before I actually went through the process of calling the police and standing up for myself there was about a six-month journey where I really did just want it to go away I really did and I wanted him to not have the repercussions I wanted me to not have the repercussions I wanted it to disappear but

men kept telling me that he had shown them personally off of his phone there was about three different boys but none of them wanted to speak to the police so all I had was rumors and no substantial evidence and I also still had faith that it was going to stay on his device. Even if people were watching it, it was still what, a handful? I can live with that. But it was when I saw that it was actually global and someone from America sent it to me

when I was just like, right, this is it. This man has got this footage. He doesn't care about me. He is willing to do anything with it. And I need to stop this right now. I'm just thinking as well of those moments when you must have realized it had gone global. Yeah, it was I was at a beach party in Dubai and I got a screenshot from a fan of the show we went on called The Challenge. And it was just a screenshot of me in a sexual act with Bear in the video that i knew it was and he sort of sent it i

think he knew it was me the person that sent it to me but he just sort of sent it and was like oh have you seen this on bears only fans and i was like where have you got that like that is me you had back and forth with stephen bear before it all went to a trial. Did he ever apologise? No. I mean, when it all first started surfacing and everyone was sort of arguing on social media and stuff, he sent me a direct message on Instagram saying, not taking accountability, but just saying,

look, I know you're upset. I'm really sorry. Like, let's meet up and talk about this, something along those lines. And I just ignored it. I just thought he thinks he can sort of manipulate me I'm really sorry, like, let's meet up and talk about this, something along those lines. And I just ignored it. I just thought he thinks he can sort of manipulate me into now forgiving him and not pressing charges when millions of people have seen me in a private sexual act,

which I didn't even know I was being filmed in. I mean, there's letting someone walk all over you and there's just, you know. I'm just wondering as well when it came to actually pursuing this case because I think you realised as well being a social media star the scrutiny you would be under and you decided to waive your right to anonymity was that difficult to decide? A lot of people ask that and to be honest it wasn't really a choice to me obviously, even though I had the screenshot from this person that had sent it from America, they then deactivated their account. So I knew it was out there, but I didn't have the evidence. So I had to go on to my Instagram and say, look, I didn't go into too much detail.

But if anyone's seen this, please just let me know and send me some evidence. And that is when my anonymity went, because everyone then knew that it was definitely me in the video. But at the same time, if I hadn't made that decision, I probably wouldn't have got justice because it was that evidence which managed to get a prosecution. We see in the documentary as well that there is such a huge question mark

over whether you will get justice or not, even with all that you knew and the evidence that you had. Mr. Baer was found guilty of voyeurism and two counts of disclosing private sexual photographs or films, sentenced, as I mentioned, to 21 months in prison. Why is it so difficult for people to get a conviction? I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that in the law, there's obviously the part where you have to prove there was intent to cause distress. So you need some form of hard evidence to show that the perpetrator said something along the lines of, you know, if you don't do this, I'm going to sell this video.

But what we have to remember is we're now I think that law was passed in 2015 we're now in a generation where a lot more people are running their own subscription channels and revenge isn't necessarily the only driving motivation in this sort of a crime now people are motivated by monetary gain and all different sorts of things by attention and I don't think distress needs to be proven because I think it's inevitable. Yeah, because I suppose the question is that if somebody's images of a sexual act, for example, are shared without their consent, should it be implicit that there would be distress caused?

I think it should be. I just think it should be completely obvious. It's such a sensitive, private thing. I want to read the statement from OnlyFans because this is where that video was shared. A spokesperson sent us this statement. All OnlyFans creators are personally, legally responsible for the content which they upload onto the OnlyFans platform.

This includes ensuring that they have written evidence of consent to upload any sexually explicit content featuring a third party. Any creator who fails to provide this information to Only Fans is in breach of Only Fans terms of service and any creator who shares non-consensual intimate images will be banned from the Only Fans platform.

Only Fans takes the sharing of any non-consensual intimate images they call it NCII, on the Only Fans platform very seriously. In the Stephen Bear case, OnlyFans took down the video in question within 24 hours of being notified and closed the account.

Do you think big tech, big platforms are doing enough? I think, I mean, in terms of OnlyFans, to be fair, it went on a lot of places. It was on tons and tons of different websites. And OnlyFans were the main people that actually supplied evidence for me and did take the video down and banned Stephen Bear from the account. So out of all of them, they're by far the ones that were the most helpful.

So I wouldn't want to pinpoint them. But in general, I think the government needs to be putting things into the online safety bill where they do hold platforms accountable for the stuff that's posted on their platforms. Just because it's virtual doesn't mean it's not reality, doesn't mean people's feelings aren't involved. And the way we police the real world, if someone is breaking the law in an establishment,

if someone was breaking the law in here and the owners of the building knew about it, the owners of the building would be held accountable. And I think it should be the same with platforms. Although OnlyFans were very helpful in the way they handled it. Pub, not so much. Yeah, really, that's interesting.

And I don't have a statement from them, I should say as well. But I understand the larger issue that you're talking about when it comes to social media platforms. I was watching Labour's Lisa Nandy yesterday. She said you are way ahead of most politicians on this issue. And I also understand that politics is now something that very much interests you.

Would that be a direction you would move in? Well, it's something I've really been enjoying. And I know it's because I'm campaigning for a cause that's my own. But I think I'd be really interested in making a difference and helping other people. So definitely. And let's talk about that. Because there are a number of people getting in touch with you off the back of this case. And I understand image based sexual abuse is actually way more common than many might expect. Yeah, I mean, when she says I'm ahead of politicians, I think the only way that would be is just the vast amount of people that I see in my inbox. So I can really see the level of this

crime. I'm sure if you look at statistics, it's bad anyway. But there are so many people who would never report this, never talk about it and only reach out to someone like me. And I have around five people contacting me a day with either their own personal story or what's really scary is a story about their children i have so many mothers messaging me about their sons their daughters many which are under the age of 16 saying they just have absolutely no idea how to handle this situation and hopefully we can make it so they don't have to handle it and we can handle preventing it rather than the damages after um you know i'll be really curious to see where

you go from here because you've obviously uh touched the nerve really on something that's happening out there that that others are not aware of uh before i let you go how are you how are your mum me and mum are really good. Really good. Better than we have been. Yeah. Your mum seems an incredible force in your life as well. People want to watch that documentary. It is called Revenge Porn, Georgia vs. Bear.

It's on tonight at 10pm. It's on ITV2 and ITVX. Gripping, shocking, sad as I mentioned. Thanks so much Georgia for coming in. Thank you. You are listening to Woman's Hour. Now I want to return to Twitter that I was mentioning at the top of the programme

because there was a couple, Rory and Charlotte, a creative bus stop marriage proposal that I was tweeting about because I saw it on the number 17 bus stop but it captured the hearts of social media after I shared it. So they found love, Rory and Charlotte, at the 17 bus stop. But it captured the hearts of social media after I shared it.

So they found love, Rory and Charlotte, at the 17 bus stop near King's Cross in London. And that post, as I mentioned, now has been shared 3.6 million times. And lots of you getting in touch on 84844 as well. Following that post, a woman called Alice Ehrlich tweeted me to say, this bus stop, this is the number 17 bus stop

near King's Cross, is where it's at. She had got a bus from there many years before. Let me bring in Alice from New York, where she now lives with her husband, a.k.a. bus passenger. Alice, great to have you with us. So crazy. You went to that same bus stop on the corner of King's Cross there. Tell us your story, your romancing commuting and welcome. Yeah, thank you, Lula. I love sharing this story. So it was October 2013, so nearly 10 years ago now.

I was coming back from Paris. I was on the Eurostar visiting my sister after a very indulgent weekend. I had this huge awkward suitcase with me not feeling very fresh um and um got the bus home the 17 back to Arche where I lived at the time and I was sort of struggling to get on the bus with this huge suitcase and um this stranger now my husband Elliot um helped me with it he sort of I was trying to get into a seat and he he he helped me set me up and then we both ended up on the back seats um the the bus so that that bench at the back um and I suddenly we sat down and I sort of thought oh he's quite he looks

quite cute um so we started chatting um for a couple of minutes and it was going, you know, going very well. And then someone else got on the bus and we were interrupted and the conversation finished. And about 10 minutes later, he got off for his stop at the top of Caledonian Road. And that could have been it. He sort of, you know, got up, said goodbye to me, you know, said goodbye. Good luck with the bag um got off and the bus drove on and I just sat there thinking oh he was just so he seemed so nice I should just get off and see if I can talk to him more with the suitcase obviously with the suitcase yeah so the next bus stop I sort of struggled off the bus, lumbered off awkwardly with it and walked back towards where he had got off.

So it was kind of like, you know, he may not have been there. He may have already gone back to his, you know, his road. And Elliot says now that he heard me before he saw me trundling up the road with his huge suitcase. And yeah, and I managed to intercept him before he had turned into his road, so I just asked for his number and then the rest is history, as they say.

What was his reaction when this woman jumped off the bus with her giant suitcase to intercept him for a phone number? Thankfully, he seemed happy and excited about it it not scared which some people may have been

So you are a big advocate of the romance and commuting. What do you think Alice before I let you go? I was mentioning the 3.6 million views of this tweet that I popped up of the marriage proposal, the bus stop marriage proposal which had each stop like Charlotte will you marry me? We met here seven years ago. No

negativity there or no mean comments so far that I have seen. Not the usual situation on Twitter, right? You know, are people much more romantic than I gave them credit for? You know, I'm really not surprised because people love our story. People are always just like gobsmacked by it and, and they love it. I think you're right. Like people, people are romantics at heart. And also, you know, when you live in a city as well, it's so easy to be a sort of anonymous urban dweller. And actually it's unusual to sort of have these like interactions that can

change your life. and I think this is this is one of them and I will say our wedding you know when we got married the wedding story featured in all of the wedding speeches we got gifts like you know 17 bus themed gifts you know everyone was just so enamored by the fact that that's how we met and that that was like just this chance encounter on a London bus was our story. So I'm not surprised that it went viral and that everyone loved it.

What I loved with your tweet in response to me as well, Alice, is that you said, forget Tinder, that bus stop is where it's at. Yeah. That's right. I mean,

all the chances. Well, thank you so much for sharing that story and also for getting up early for us, because I know it's New York. And say hi to Elliot as well, as he probably wakes up on that New York morning. But if you're just joining us, if you're of a certain age, you might remember the love boat. We are talking about the love bus this morning or indeed any other form of public transport where you encountered romance. I want your stories 84844. Here's Mr. Luke Granger. Indeed. I want your stories 84844.

Here's Mr. Luke Granger. Indeed, I have had romance while commuting. It was London Bridge Station, the Northern Line, three stops, no communication. I took a chance with a business card.

Twelve years, two kids and a shih tzu later, we're still together. Here's another one. Tim, my wonderful parents met on a bus in the 1940s and were married for 72 years. Let me see. Here's another one. Tim, my wonderful parents met on a bus in the 1940s and were married for 72 years.

Let me see. Here's Martin. Oh, the guy's getting in touch. My mum and dad met in a train from St Pancras to St Albans in 1967. That journey is only 20 minutes. Dad got mum's number and she was already engaged. So he must have been really charming.

They're still happily married today. 84844 for your love bus or train stories. Now I want to turn to sport. The topic of fairness in sport is rarely out of the news and at the heart of the debate on whether transgender women athletes should compete in women's sport involves the complex balance of inclusion,

sporting fairness and safety. And it's likely to be firmly under the spotlight again later this week as on Thursday, World Athletics is expected to make a much anticipated decision on whether they will continue to allow transgender women to compete in female international track and field events. Last year, British Triathlon became the first British sporting body to establish a new open category in which transgender athletes can compete. The Rugby Football League and Rugby Football Union, also the Swimming World Governing Body, that's FINA, has stopped trans athletes from competing in women's games and races.

In a moment, we're going to speak to two people who have different thoughts on this topic. But first, I want to bring in BBC Sports News correspondent Alex Kapstick. Alex, good to have you back on Woman's Hour. So talk our listeners through the process World Athletics is going through right now. What do we know? Well, after a detailed review in which World Athletics carried out

a number of studies, and they will tell you they've done more than any other sport in this area they announced in january that their preferred option going forward was to allow trans women to enter female events as long as their natural levels of testosterone were kept below a certain level it was two and a half animals per liter that. That's half of the previous limit. And that would have to be maintained for at least 24 months instead of 12 before they could compete. Now, that surprised some people because Sebastian Coe, the president of World Athletics, he'd said previously that he would always prioritise fairness over inclusion. Biology, he said, must trump identity. And it seemed as though

athletics was moving in the same direction, as you just mentioned, swimming and rugby and their policy over transgender athletes. But it was made clear that this preferred option wasn't going to be the final word on the matter. And over the last two months or so, a working group has consulted national federations, other stakeholders for example given their statement last december uk athletics presumably told them that they supported a ban on transgender athletes entering female only events and would prefer a new open category for all sexes so it's all this talking the debates that's now almost over and world athletics will reveal their final recommendation on thursday and it's a decision nula that will also apply to dsd athletes that

stands for differences of sexual development a category that the former olympic champion casta simenia falls into and it's one that right now is more relevant to world athletics simply because unlike the transgender issue it will affect a number of current athletes competing at elite level. So this announcement later this week, it's going to be watched and scrutinized by athletes, by sports officials all over the world. So you mentioned there how the bodies come to their decisions. As some current female athletes have spoken out about this topic. What have they said? Well, not many. It's rare to hear from, to be honest with you.

They're just not prepared to speak out. Most of them prefer to stay silent because this issue has become so polarising. Many fear of being labelled as bigots, of being accused of discriminatory behaviour against the trans community. And it's a topic that does generate a lot of noise on social media, some of it unpleasant on both sides of the debate. Leah Thomas, she was the first transgender swimmer to win a medal at a US collegiate level. That happened last year.

A group of female rivals in the pool in the US, they spoke of their frustration and anger that she'd been allowed to race against them. So far, only one current British female athlete has voiced her concerns in public. The shot putter Amelia Strickler, she called on other female athletes to band together against the inclusion of trans women. Otherwise, in her words, it would be the end of female sport. And what about the other side, those who want to see transgender inclusion in sport? Well, their argument is partly that it ought to be a basic human right for them to choose which category they compete in.

And it's also claimed that the science isn't clear. Therefore, there's no conclusive evidence that that male-born athletes retain a big physical advantage after transitioning and and undergoing hormone therapy the cyclist emily bridges who hit the news last year when she was stopped from competing uh in a female only event until the icu that's cycling's world governing body reviewed their uh regulations on transgender issues she's involved in studies of trans women in sport. And she said last year that she has the data to prove that she doesn't have a competitive advantage. She argued that hormone replacement therapy has had a massive effect and that the aerobic performance difference is gone after about four months.

And other trans women cyclists, not at elite level, I should say, they've said something similar. And Leah Thomas, who I mentioned before, she's talked about there being a misconception over her recent transition that it wasn't about winning medals, it was to be true to herself. She also said that female sport isn't threatened by trans women because there just aren't that many competing in the female category. Alex Katzik, thanks so much for joining us. I want to discuss this further with Dr Seema Patel the Senior Lecturer in Law at Nottingham Law School

at Nottingham Trent University Seema has led research on the legal regulation of gender discrimination in sport for 20 years and has contributed to government consultation and also sport policy on inclusion matters I'm also joined by Sharon Davies the former competitive swimmer who represented Great Britain in the Olympics and European Championships during her long career.

And later this year, she has a book coming out called Unfair Play, the battle for women's sports. You're both very welcome. Sharon, let me begin with you. What do you think? You heard a little there from Alex of how World Athletics has broached the issue of whether trans women should be included in the female category. What outcome are you expecting to see on Thursday? Alex, I think hope for women's sport, for female sport, that it's the right outcome, i.e. that the female category is protected for biological females. You know, this is an emotive subject, but that's because we've not been allowed to actually have open debate because it's become so toxic and it's been very very

difficult to get that science just recognized a little bit inaccurate to say that science doesn't actually support uh you know keeping female sport for females because there's actually 17 peer reviewed studies out there not a single one of those says that you can mitigate against male puberty advantage and we will sorry to interrupt you the last one was september though and that was after 14 years so it's totally ingenuous to say that after four months you can remove what male puberty puts into a biological male body. And what I need to say Sharon is that some would say that the science is still not agreed upon on that particular aspect. I know that is where you're coming from. We'll talk about

it a little more specifically particularly with trans athlete Joanna Harper. I will play a little bit of her for our listeners as well. But what would you like to see the outcome when it comes to world athletics? I would like to see the female category protected for female athletes. You know, if it's not not that's sex discrimination but what about people that have a male biological advantage to go into a race to choose which category they go into where females don't get to choose which category they go into they have to go into the female category otherwise they don't stand any chance whatsoever so you're saying you know that females don't deserve the same equal opportunities to success in sport that males get. That's why we have sex

differences in sport. That's why we have men and women's races. Those categories weren't based on a feeling. They were based on biology. And now it's as if biology doesn't seem to matter. So, you know, I feel very strongly when sport nowadays is a career, you're actually limiting the opportunities of those that are born biologically female to have a career, a successful career in sport because they're racing on an unfair platform. And when you say it's not true, that's just not true. I'm sorry. It's really not true. I mean, the UK Sports Council did a massive report, which was out last year, and they said that you could not have inclusion and fair sport for the female category. So why would we decide that inclusion was more important in the female category, but fair sport is what we actually prioritise in the men's category? I just don't see that as being correct. And that is a question that is asked about whether inclusion should trump

fairness or fairness over inclusion. With this as well though, Sian, because a couple of aspects come up there. Some talking about adding another category for example which you seem to be against in what you have made your comments there and with testosterone suppression for example which alex was outlining um is that something that you would support but it doesn't work you know as i said we've got 17 peer-reviewed studies around the world one after 14 years which shows that you haven't removed male puberty advantage so suppressing testosterone now after a male has gone through puberty will not remove the physical benefits they have a different bone structure for starters q angle is very very important in sports to with regards to converting

power through to your legs and also injuries uh women have menstruation that they have to deal with as well that's something that we have to factor into our training that someone that's biologically male doesn't have to do you know that's there are so many different reasons i'm not for including everybody in sport i love sport i've been involved in elite sports since i was 10 11 years old you know as an international at 11 i've been to 12 olympic games um i know that sport is important for everyone to be involved in. However, it does have to be fair. Safe first, you know, fairness second, and inclusion third. So let's sit down and debate how we make sure that it's inclusive.

Sorry, Sharon, what was your first there? I just missed it. Safety. Safety first. So in contact sports, safety has to come first. Then we have to have fairness. And then you say inclusion. And if we have to have fairness. And then you say inclusion. And if we have to have an open category, then great.

Or if we have to have additional categories, then great. But let's have open, honest, respectful debate that's based on the science first. So that is what you are looking for. We will get into whether science should be the main aspect that we look at when we talk about this story in just a moment. But some will say, and you will have heard this, Sharon, that whether you're giving enough consideration to the rights of trans people in sports. So the Olympic diving champion, Tom Daley, for example, he said he was furious at the Swimming World body, Athena's decision to stop trans athletes competing in elite races. He said anyone that's told that they can't compete or can't do something that they love

just because of who they are, it's not on. What's your response to Tom Daley? A, it's disingenuous because no one's told that they can't. They're just told that they can't decide to identify into a category that they don't qualify for. So if I was 15 years old

and I wanted to race the 12-year-olds because I knew I was going to win, then that's not fair. That's why we have categories in sport. That's why we have several categories in Paralympic sport that's why we have weight categories in boxing for example the whole idea is to give people opportunity to have fair sport across the whole of society and another thing it's terribly important to point out that it won't affect Tom Daley in the slightest Tom Daley is a male competing in a male category it's not actually going to make any difference to his sporting results one iota. So, you know, I do think it's really important

that we listen to female voices and they've been left out of this. In most cases, they've not even been consulted and they are scared witless to speak out because of the activism that goes against them and the cancellation and, you know, ringing up their sponsors and trying to get their life destroyed because they actually just believe in fair sport. And we heard a little of that from Alex, I believe, as well. But let us bring in Dr Seema Patel, a senior lecturer in law at Nottingham Law University, who's been researching the legal regulation of gender discrimination in sport for 20 years. Seema, you were hearing some of Sharon's arguments there.

Why does it matter, in your opinion, that trans people are able to compete in sport as their chosen gender? Thank you, Nuala. I think the first thing to highlight is Alex summarised the debate quite well there and managed to highlight the balance that needs to be struck in terms of the competing arguments. And I am part of a network of academics, practitioners, campaigners who seek to shift the status quo. We've been talking about this for a very long time now. And it is a very complex issue. And I sympathise very much with the competing views. And I agree with Sharon that we need to have a meaningful and open debate about this, but the narrative does need to shift to some extent. And we need to see how we can align safety, fairness, inclusion as well and ask different questions in this debate now to see how the rights of everybody can be respected in some respect. But you're talking

about looking at it through a legal perspective, for example. Sharon was outlining the scientific one as she sees it. Why are you calling for that? I'm calling for a balance between the science and the law. I wouldn't pit one against the other or prioritise one against the other. My research has shown that the regulation of gender diverse athletes has been focused on the science. And there's a legitimate reason for that. But I believe that if you are considering the eligibility of athletes, you must also balance the debate with the recognition of the psychological, legal and social factors that should determine eligibility as well to ensure that those rights are respected.

So, for example, there is the Equality Act of 2010 that lists gender reassignment as a characteristic given legal protection from discrimination. There are exemptions when it comes to sports. Section 195 of the Act, which deals with sports,

says it's lawful to restrict the participation of transgender people from sporting competitions where physical strength, stamina or physique are important factors in deciding who wins. But the restriction can only be done to ensure the competition is fair or the other competitors are safe. Would you like this exemption clause to change, Seema? It has an interesting history, which I'm not sure the viewers would want to know about. But it has been

around in our law for a very long time. And it's obviously now inserted into the Equality Act and aversion to the Gender Recognition Act as well. And I believe that it does need review, particularly in light of developments in modern society, when we're looking at the evolution of gender identity. Remember, the exemption applies where there is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. Proportionality is really key. And there has been a focus on this exemption, absolutely. But we mustn't forget the wider human rights framework that also guarantees rights to equality and non-discrimination on the grounds of sex or other status. Proportionality of course would be open to interpretation. You know Sharon gave me her list as in safety, fairness, inclusion. Do you think

Seema that inclusion should trump fairness? And I respect everybody's view on this and it is a very complex debate. I believe that safety, fairness, inclusion should be aligned and there should be more research to see how we can do that. I think sport has a fantastic opportunity here to lead, change the narrative and question how we can do that in a more meaningful way. But you think that there can be some sort of balance between the three? I don't have a crystal ball, but I definitely believe that there can be some connection. And we must strive as researchers to try and find a fair connection. But only when science, athletes, lawyers, stakeholders all talk together about this issue can I think we come to some kind of solution?

If it is just focused on one element, I think it will become very complex. And of course, Sharon and Alex bringing up the point that there is often people concerned about speaking out with a subject that's so contentious. We have touched on the topic of science here. I mentioned Joanna Harper. She's a scientist at Loughborough University,

a trans woman herself. She's been carrying out two studies on the impact of transitioning on athletes, which has not yet been published. Here she is speaking to my colleague, Connie McLaughlin,

on Radio 5 Live last year. Women's sports does need very careful eligibility requirements. And I think we have to be very careful with anyone who's gone through male puberty in terms of allowing them into women's sports. But certainly the data that I have seen suggests that there is a substantial performance

loss with testosterone suppression. And I think that in most sports, probably including cycling, that will be sufficient not to eliminate all the advantages, but to ensure meaningful competition between trans women and cis women. Tell us a little bit about the research, Joanna, that's been done already. What do we know about that? Well, in truth, there's been very little research on trans athletes per se. We're doing the first prospective studies right now at Loughborough University, first in the world. And, you know, we're not done with them yet. So, but we're doing both a longitudinal study where we follow trans athletes as they go through hormone therapy, testosterone suppression for trans women. And we also have a cross-sectional study where we look at trans women who've already gone through hormone therapy and compare them to cisgender or typical women. Those are our two lab studies at the moment. And I can't share data with you at this point because it's not finished. But we're doing that. There are other universities in the world that are looking to start doing this. And hopefully, once we get several universities in several countries doing this, we can amass enough data to have some logical conclusions.

I guess, Joanna, on that basis, it might be difficult to make policy because of that. Yeah, very difficult. And I would suggest that any policy made now should be considered a living document, and that as we get more data, we can make better policy. Sharon, your response? My response is the word meaningful I find quite offensive in some ways. Explain that yeah why is that so offensive? Because we have WADA which is the World Anti-Doping Agency and testosterone is on their list of banned substances and the whole idea of WADA is to catch anybody from taking a banned substance from getting the tiniest advantage when it comes to sport so if we use the word meaningful when it comes to women's

sport that means that we turn around and say well it's perfectly okay for them to have a small advantage but they can't have a big advantage so in other words you're asking female athletes to line up at the beginning of a race and stand next to someone who they know has a known advantage over them which is an unfair advantage. And again, we're not asking that from male athletes. We're only asking that from female athletes because transgender men, biological females opt on the whole to race with women because they still know that they have no chance racing with the men. And it's the same with not people that, you know, identify as non-binary. If they're female biologically, they still compete

with the women as we saw at the Olympics, as we we saw at the nc2as so we're asking women not to have females not to have fair sports and that is the thing it's this word meaningful so let's have an experiment but let's not have an experiment on women's sport in real time you know the reason i'm so vocal about this is that i competed for 20 years against these germans and those those East Germans were allowed to be given drugs and the IOC did absolutely nothing for nearly 20 years and in my Olympic Games in Moscow they won 80% of the female medals in the swimming pool because they'd been put on testosterone from the age of 11, 12 and 13 years old which gave them a 9% advantage that's way less than most males have ever females in sport. The bigger the explosive event.

So in other words, you know, jumping, boxing, fighting, the larger the difference. So something like weightlifting is 30 percent. Something like high jump, long jump is 20 percent. Swimming on the whole is about 10 to 11 to 12 percent. You know, they had 9 percent advantage on us and they absolutely wiped the floor with us for 20 years whilst the IOC did absolutely nothing. And I just do not want this live experiment on women's sport to happen again. Let's have experiment. Let's have, you know, universities doing research, but not on women in women's races so that they lose out in the meantime. I should say we did invite Joanna Harper on. I don't have her to respond directly to you, Sharon, but she couldn't make it today. But she

talks about the studies being ongoing. Seema, your reaction to what you've heard from Sharon? Again, very respectful and completely understand the competing views here. I would obviously just add that WADA is in place for the prevention of prohibition of doping in sport which has connotations with obviously cheating and I think we're talking about something quite different here we're talking about the eligibility of athletes who want to compete in sport who are not necessarily cheating so I think there's a distinction to be made there and I think it's really important to actually remember in all of this debate, everybody talking about it, which is progress, by the way. When I first started researching this area, it was very hypothetical.

And I think it's really good that we are talking about it. We need to hear from the lived experiences of these athletes. And I think Sharon alluded to that right at the start, that perhaps the voice of cis female athletes are not being heard, because there's a fear of speaking out. But the voices of trans athletes are also not being heard. And I think it's really important we don't attempt to speak on their behalf. Well, we were hearing there from Joanna Harper, who's a scientist, also an athlete. But Seema, for example, if Sharon doesn't want these experiments carried out in real time, as we've heard, Joanna, we're hearing it could be 20 years. She believes until the science, when they have the science to really calculate the advantage or not. I won't use the word meaningful.

You know, if it turns out that we have definitive scientific evidence that trans women have a sporting advantage over biological women. Would your position change on your calls for trans women to be included in the female sports category? I think it's a really good question. And the answer? And what I think is,

it's a question of what sport and society will be willing to accept in the future. As our society evolves and our understanding of gender identity evolves and our acceptance and legal recognition of the changing nature of gender identity evolves, it's a question of to what extent sport will catch up with that difference. But that's not, I'm not hearing any definitive. Let me turn to Thursday instead then, the World Athletics.

What do you want them to rule? I want them to ensure that their regulations are based on legitimate fact and evidence. But what would you like them to do? Would you like them to, for example, advocate testosterone suppression? Would you like them to advocate an open category? My research is focused on the regulation and ensuring the regulation is consistent and lawful. And in terms of an open category, again, I would not want to speak on the regulation and ensuring the regulation is consistent and lawful um and in terms of an open category i again i would not want to speak on the behalf of athletes and i think that's something that trans athletes need to be need to have a voice on to determine whether

that's something they would want because at the same at the end of the day this is their identity that we're talking about and their livelihood okay um i I hear what you're saying, but I don't think I'm getting some specifics on what you'd like to see in black and white coming from the world athletics. Let me turn just back to you, Sharon, for a moment. Do you think the mental health of young trans people might be affected if inclusion isn't placed

at the heart of sporting competition? And I know we're talking specifically about international so far in our conversation. Yeah, absolutely. But what about the mental health of the females that they're actually racing against, which no one ever seems to talk about? You know, the human rights of trans athletes always seem to come first. The human rights, you know, of a minority group at the moment seem to be trumping the human rights of a majority group, which is 50% of this world, you know, and that's my whole point with this, is that we need to protect the rights of females to fair sports and equal opportunities, and non-sex discrimination because of their biology. And if we don't do that, we are saying that females are not worthy of what males are worthy of. Seema, are biological women being given equal opportunities to biological men here?

I did, just to clarify that, I did say that the rights of cis-female athletes are of equal importance and I don't think one set of rights should trump the other at all. I think that unfortunately there has been a divide in this narrative and those groups have been pitted against each other and there has been support for trans athletes in the sport community, but that perhaps hasn't been the focus of stories and reports. And I think it's important to note that there is support there.

And it's about, again, ensuring alignment rather than pitting groups against each other. I want to thank both of my guests, Dr Seema Patel and also Sharon Davies. I hope that has given our listener kind of an insight into the importance of the decision that is happening. It's expected on Thursday by the World Athletics. That is the world governing body for track and field. And we'll continue following it right here on Woman's Hour. And let me turn now. I want to go back in time. 2007, actually, you might remember this story from Iran. 19-year-old Rahana Jabari was heralded as a symbol of resistance for women in Iran.

The story has been made into a film. It's called Seven Winters in Tehran. And it brings together secretly filmed footage and testimonies from family and friends and the words of Rihanna herself in her letters from prison, voiced by the Holy Spider actress, that's our Amir Ibrahimi. Its release comes at a time of heightened global attention, as you'll know, on female resistance in Iran. But the central themes of the documentary, the universal, the power, control, and the sustained silencing of women.

I'm joined by the director of the film, that is Steffi Nidrezol, and also Rehana's mother, Sholeh Park-Ravan. So good to have both of you with us. Thank you for joining us. Sholay, for people who don't know Rehana, give us a sense of her spirit. I think the most important thing about Rehana

is she was so courageous and brave because when she was on the sentence of death penalty, she started to fight for release her cellmates. And it was amazing. And, of course, I wondered about that. And I think as a mother, I can say she was so kind, so beautiful, same all of mothers. But I think as a woman, she was so brave and she gave it to me as her mother. Steffi, good to have you with us as well. Why did you decide on this story of this particular woman? Yeah, actually, it was a wonderful incident. I, by accident, met family members of Rehane in Turkey,

in Istanbul, over my Iranian partner in this time. It was in 2016, and we become friends, and they had this secretly shot footage with them. And in one moment, they asked me if I want to do a movie with this footage because we spoke so much about this content and what happened to Rihanna and yeah I think they liked my questions and they liked my interest but actually I was not sure if I can do a movie because I'm a German. I don't speak Farsi. So I wondered how I as a German can do it. So I copied the material of them to bring it to Germany to check how I can do this movie.

And in this particular day, I met Shole because this was 2017. And I think it was a very female connection we had so one woman met another woman and yeah and there I decided I have to do the movie and it's also about a lot about sexual assault and it's a worldwide topic you know it's not an Iranian topic no acted with that also yes no of course it's themes that that we often hear of. And, you know, Sholay, I was so struck by you as I watched the documentary because it unfolds also

with the words of Rehani, this diary that she was keeping. And I just saw your campaign, your fight to try and save her. There was, for our listeners, a son, Jalal, of the man who was murdered. If he forgave Rehani,

she would not be executed. It was a blood revenge is how this law is enacted in Iran. And you had conversations back and forth with Jalal almost like he was a son to you is the way you described it. He didn't forgive Rahaneh in the end because she would not retract what she said about defending herself against sexual assault. Have you ever spoken to Jalal since then? No after that just one time Steffi once

make interview with him and I called him and asked because I didn't know the phone number belongs. Bill belongs to Jalal. I asked him, are you Jalal Sarbandi? And he said, yes. And I said, I am surely Pakrawan. And he shocked and said, after I can speak with you in five minutes. And when I call him again after five minutes, never he pick up. He never picked up again after that long.

Do you wish as a mother, and this is a difficult question, but that she had just said instead that it was all false and that she had been spared execution. You know, she believed and stood by her belief to the end, even to the execution, saying this man tried to rape her. Did you want her just to say that that was untrue to save her life? Of course, I am a mother and I beg her, please write this letter and save and release and come to home.

But she decided to not wrote that letter. And until last moment, she fights for truth. Even in execution place, government took some cameras from one television program program to uh to for that rehan said yeah i i made wrong and i i was a child and i didn't recognize that he doesn't want to rape me and i now at this time i missed her of course, but I think she did right because she teach another person to stand on right side. I understand. I'm just wondering in our last minute, Sholi, as well, what would Rehane make of the women's protests in Iran now? I think she is a sample of thousands of daughters in the street. You know, they killed, but the other girls went to the street. They raped and imprisoned and they came out again on the street. They blind.

You put the tear gas, yeah, yeah. But they continue their fighting for normal life, for their rights, and I think Rehan was one sample of the thousands of these girls. It's a beautiful film. So sad.

And I'm so sorry for your loss, I have to say as well, Sholay, you know. And thank you, Steffi, for bringing that story, of course, Rohana's Jabari story to life. It is called Seven Winters in Tehran. It's screening this Wednesday evening, I should say,

at the Human Rights Watch Film Festival at the Barbican in London. And from today until the 26th of March, it is available for listeners in the UK and Ireland to screen digitally. Thanks so much for spending some time with us right here

on Woman's Hour. I do want to let you know that tomorrow, the first in this new series, we're talking about narcissistic mothers and the damage that they can do. Narcissist is a term

which gets thrown around a lot, but it is a real diagnosis. And Enna Miller will be talking to a Woman's Hour listener in her mid-50s that we're calling Charlotte. And she shares why being raised by a woman she believes was a narcissist had such an impact on her whole life. And also the stories about romance while commuting keep coming in. I'll read a few more for you tomorrow on Woman's Hour. Do join me then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello. My Radio 4 podcast series, Amal Rajan Interviews, features global game changers, pioneers and maverick thinkers. It includes Bill Gates, Greta Thunberg and Sir Ian McKellen, as well as Novak Djokovic, Billie Jean King and

Nile Rodgers. Nothing is off the table and all give an insight into their remarkable worlds. You can subscribe and listen on BBC Sounds. Thank you. and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.