Woman's Hour - Rebecca Cheptegei's killing, Alison Lapper, Ellen Burstyn

Episode Date: September 6, 2024

The Ugandan Olympic runner Rebecca Cheptegei has died, after being doused with petrol and set on fire. She is the third female athlete to be killed in Kenya in the past few years. To find out more about what's going on, Krupa Padhy is joined by the BBC's Deputy Africa Editor Anne Soy and Joan Chelimo, a fellow athlete of Rebecca's.Carol Klein is one of our best loved horticulturalists – most known for presenting shows like Gardener’s World. As well as gardening and her career on TV, she also trained as an artist and worked as a teacher. Now she’s written a memoir, Hortobiography, which looks at how her life is all connected through plants. She joins Krupa to tell us more about the book and why our relationship with nature is so important. Artist and disability activist Alison Lapper is exploring her life in a new BBC Three documentary, In My Own Words: Alison Lapper. It examines her life from childhood to becoming a mouth artist, as well as looking at how she processed her grief after losing her son, Parys. Krupa speaks to Alison about her art, her son and her life.Ellen Burstyn has been a star of American stage and screen for 70 years. This week she received the Liberatum Pioneer Award at the Venice Film Festival for her contribution to cinema and the industry, particularly in paving the way for women. She tells Krupa her stories from a lifetime on camera.The Maori of New Zealand have a new Queen - 27-year-old Ngā Wai hono i te pō. She is the only daughter of the former King, and was chosen to succeed him by the Maori chiefs. To find out what this means for Maori women, we hear from broadcaster and commentator Marni Dunlop.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupal Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, welcome to Woman's Hour on a Friday. Good to have you with us. One of the things that we are thinking about this morning is gardening. I'll be speaking to the gardening expert and presenter, Carol Klein. Plants have been an intrinsic part of her life as far as she can remember. Flowers play on her emotions. They make her smile, she says.

And she believes that wherever you live, even if you have the tiniest of growing spaces, flowers and plants can transport you to other places. What do you make of that? Are there certain plants, flowers, trees or even weeds that remind you of a certain person, place or event? I have a wonderful plant called the brummel in my lounge that flowers once a year overnight for 12 hours only. It emits the most gorgeous of smells and it's a moment that my children and I stay up for every year knowing that by the

morning that flower will be gone it's utterly beautiful what is your story which plant transports you to a different reality you can text the program that number is 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate over on social media you'll find us on the handle at bbc women's hour that's Instagram and Twitter or X as it is now called. And of course, you can email us via our website or send us a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. All of our terms and conditions can be found

over on our website. Also this morning, Alison Lapper will be here, the British artist, disability activist and mother who was born with a condition called Focomelia you may know her as the subject of the statue of a pregnant woman that was on the 4th plinth in Trafalgar Square

back in 2005 until 2007 tired of being told that she wouldn't she couldn't, that she shouldn't Alison has emerged as a force, insisting that she will, she is, and she's going to. In 2019, her son died suddenly, and that grief is the subject of a new exhibition and documentary. We will meet her shortly to learn more about her journey and, of course, her son, Paris. Plus, we head to the other side of the world and we hear all about New Zealand's new

Maori queen, 27-year-old Nawai Hono Itepo. More about the significance of her appointment coming up. But first, you may have heard the shocking news of the death of the Olympic runner Rebecca Cheptage yesterday after being doused in petrol and set on fire. The police suspect her former boyfriend, who is currently in hospital with injuries. The 33-year-old mother of two was attacked outside her house in northwestern Kenya on Saturday. Rebecca had recently returned from Paris, where she had competed in the Olympics for her home country of Uganda.

Anne Soy is the BBC's Deputy Africa Editor. She joins me now live from Nairobi. Good to have you with us, Anne. We are 24 hours on since that news. That case is ongoing. Do we have more of an understanding of what happened to Rebecca Cheptegei? Yes, we have spoken to her family, her friends. I spoke to one of her closest friends and fellow athlete, Immaculate Chemutai, and she recounted the last moments that Rebecca had. She was at home.

It was Sunday. They had gone to church with her children, and then she went back home, was doing normal chores, which included looking after her chicken in the chicken coop. But what she did not know is that her ex-boyfriend, who wasn't even living with her, they'd been estranged for two years, was hiding behind it. And that is where he attacked her. An altercation ensued. And then he doused her with petrol.

Apparently, he had gone there with about five liters of petrol, doused her with petrol. Apparently he had gone there with about five litres of petrol, doused her with petrol, set her on fire. Doctors said that she sustained 80% burns, which is very severe. She was admitted to hospital on Sunday, but sadly lost her life yesterday in the morning. She lives behind two children and her family. Her father says they're devastated. She was very supportive. He described her as the pillar of their family. A horrific situation which understandably many of our listeners will find upsetting.

I also understand that her children were witness to this attack as well. That's right. There were outdoors also doing some small chores and they witnessed this sadly. The suspect, the main suspect is her former boyfriend who's, as you mentioned, also in hospital with 30% burns from that attack. The issues they had were well known to their friends. According to her friend Chemu Tai, they had had a dispute over land ownership and that matter had been reported to the police and it was even before court. So they were due to appear in court on Monday, but that was not to be because she was attacked on Sunday.

You said that we've been hearing from her family. I understand she was the breadwinner of the family. That's right. And that's what the father said. And in this part of the world, it's not unusual to find the one person who's made it in the family supporting the extended family. And so she was supporting not only her children, but also her siblings, pretty much the extended family and her parents. And now they're saying, you know, her death leaves a big gap within the Chiptage family. Now, Rebecca was Ugandan, but training and living in Kenya. And we know of other female Kenyan runners who have been killed.

Could you tell us more about them? That's right. And that is why people have really been outraged by this incident, because it gives a disturbing sense of deja vu. In 2021, another athlete, Agnes Tirope, was found dead in her bedroom. She had multiple stab wounds in her neck and abdomen. Her family reported that her husband had called them and he was sounding distressed and apologizing for what he had done, saying that he had done something bad. But then he ran after that.

And he was later arrested after a chase by police. He's facing murder charges and that case is still ongoing. He has denied the charge. A year later in 2022, another athlete Damaris Mutua was killed. It is reported that she was strangled. The main suspect in that death also was her boyfriend, her partner. And he went missing. He's still at large. He was a fellow athlete from Ethiopia. Well, stay with us, Anne, because we are joined now by Joan Chielimo. She founded Tirop's Angels Trust after the murder of the Kenyan athlete Agnes Tirop, who you just mentioned there. She died, as you said, in 2021. Her husband has been accused of the murder and he denies the

charge. Joan, welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you for joining us. Can I get your thoughts upon hearing this news about Rebecca? We have been very saddened by the loss of our fellow athlete Rebecca. All the athletics fraternity is mourning and this is still going on, it reminds us very clearly about what happened because she, it's just the same manner that Tirob was murdered. And we are still hoping and trying to hope that these perpetrators will be held accountable for their wrongdoings.

It has been very sad. I knew Rebecca as a person. We were together at the Paris Olympics. She was a mom. She was just hard working. To be at the Olympics means like you really work so hard. She was the bridegroom of our family. And you can imagine other girls were looking up to her.

So it has been very sad. And we are just calling upon women to come together because three more women have been killed now since we set up the foundation. And it shows that more needs to be done. We are really hoping that now it's another wake-up call and more us to come together and more policies and more education to be done to these girls. And of course, Joan, our heart goes out to you and all of her friends and family who are mourning her tragic loss.

As we were talking about with Anne, she is the third runner to be killed in Kenya. Why do you think this is reoccurring there? Yeah, I mean, female athletes are going beyond the traditional norms of the male providing everything. They are becoming more financially stable. They are becoming more independent. And I think their partners or ex-partners don't like the fact that we are becoming independent. We are raising our voices more. So I think they are going beyond the cultural and the traditional norms where the woman was just to be in the kitchen and just being provided for. And they feel a bit intimidated by this because for Rebecca's issue, she was owning a land and they had a dispute with her husband

or the ex-boyfriend. Of course, details are still emerging as to the circumstances around her death. But your charity, Tirob's Angels, was founded after the death of Agnes Tirob, as I mentioned. I'm thinking about how the country women move forward there, men, of course, as well. Tell us about the work you do on this subject. We do education. We create a platform where women can just come and speak up.

And we have counselling session for the victims. We even follow up their cases just after counseling them. We follow up their cases if they are in a very bad state. We do camp visits because we go to camps to teach junior athletes on how to be stable and just to take care of themselves and feel free and safe. We go to schools. We go to schools, we go to churches, we do a couple of many things and it looks like we need more partners

because now we want to partner with many other organisations like UN and UN Women so that our voices are heard more. And turning back to my colleague Anne Soy, we have been hearing from government officials on this, but really what happens next? That's really the big question.

And I spoke to the representative of the Federation of Women Lawyers, which is an organisation that has been at the forefront helping victims of domestic violence, a lot of it pro bono. And she said that the frustration is the fact that we have had previous cases, but the wheels of justice roll too slow. You know, with Agnesty Robb's case, you know, the family is still waiting for justice to be served. She said that the laws exist that can protect victims and can deliver justice. However, the implementation is where the problem is. It takes too long. It is very slow.

And also how the society here is structured. Often you'll hear families trying to resolve these issues without involving the legal system. And, you know, she was strongly discouraging against that. And so there's a strong feeling now that people need to see justice being served and that will help to deter any further cases. But as it stands now, cases of femicide are increasingly reported, not just affecting elite athletes and therefore giving prominence to this very important subject, but also affecting, you know, young students in university and colleges. We've had more and more cases of young women in their late teens,

early 20s, found murdered, some of them, their bodies mutilated in this short rental houses accommodation. And therefore, this is an issue that people have been speaking more and more about in this part of the world. Thank you so much, Anne Soy, putting the subject of femicide into the wider context, of course, that being women being killed at the hands of men. And also athlete Joan Chelimo, thank you for joining us here on Women's Hour. Next, a subject that many of you are already getting in touch with us about, gardening, because we have Carol Klein with us, one of our best-loved horticulturalists. You will know her from TV shows like Gardener's World, Wild About Your Garden and Grow Your Own Veg. Carol has dedicated her life to gardening, from her childhood adventures in Manchester

to her first experiments with the world of plants at her home on the edge of Exmoor. Before that though, she trained as an artist and worked as a teacher before finding an unexpected career on TV and in her new memoir, Hortobiography, great name, a gritty woman's tale of people, places and plants, she tells the story of her life through plants and Carol joins me now. Welcome. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Well, let's start at the beginning. You were born and grew up mainly in Bolton in Greater Manchester, which is an industrial area. How do you go from that context to being a nature loving child? I always was a nature loving child. I think lots of children, even though they live in the middle of cities, love the natural world.

And, you know, it's one of the things I want to do to encourage more and more kids to do that and to be aware of it, especially in this day and age. Yeah, we're going to get into those efforts a little later in our conversation. But I want to hear more about you, because as I said in my introduction, it was art you really wanted to do initially. It was both. It was both. Tell us about that relationship. Well, no, at school, because eventually I went to a new grammar school and I was in the second year. So there were a few choices, really, because there was a small intake. And I had to choose between biology and art, and I loved them both. And I don't know why I elected art rather than biology,

but I've just always, always loved the whole idea of plants and gardening and the natural world. And birds. I love birds. And I think art and plants go hand in hand. Absolutely. Alice Knapp, who's also with us, I'm sure is nodding as well. We'll turn to you a little later. But then you obviously moved into TV presenting,

something that happened by accident? Yeah, there were a few things in between. Yes, well, fill us in. I taught art for about 13 years and I taught mainly in London, in Stepney and then in White City, right behind the old television centre. But I always desperately wanted a garden. So I looked at the Times Educational Supplement, two jobs advertised, both in the country, got the one in South Malton in North Devon, imagined this, you know, wonderful place covered in Virginia creeper and in actual fact it was a 1950s school, but it didn't matter.

And I taught there for a couple of years, but meanwhile started looking for somewhere to live and eventually found Leap Cottage which is where we still live I think that's about 46 years ago so the garden's come on since then there wasn't a garden at first and eventually I grew all these plants

because I couldn't afford to go out and buy them and I loved doing it in fact we spent the money grew all these plants because I couldn't afford to go out and buy them. And I loved doing it. In fact, we spent the money that we were supposed. The mortgage said that we should replace our windows and doors. But instead, I bought a greenhouse. I love that. I think I'd do the same. And I love what you said just there about not having the money to buy all the plants.

So you went about it in a different way. It's like me going to my mum's and getting cuttings from the neighbours and planting them. There is such a joy in watching these plants grow when they've started as a seed or a root. Exactly. At the moment on Gardener's World, and you'll see one of them tonight actually those of you who watch um is one of our little films um and we've been doing a strand called plants for free because um that's what it's all about growing your own garden um you know the great joy there is in it i mean it's not just a question of spending money, far from it. It's just that wonderful excitement, as you say. You need patience, though, don't you? Yeah.

You need a lot of patience. But then it teaches you patience, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. It absolutely does. And because it's cyclical, you're completely in touch with the real world, not through screens or... One of the things I love about your book is the way you intertwine your family life with plants and how you associate moments of your life with plants i want to hear about your moment in a second but we've been asking our listeners to do exactly

that so let me read some of the many messages that have been coming in louise in maidstone says i have violets in my garden for my grandmother. He was Violet Victoria. I never knew her and neither did my dad. She died when he was a baby. As a family, we only discovered where she was buried a few years ago and I'm nearly 60 now.

Every time I look at the violets, I think of her and her legacy, all of us, quite an achievement. Jane, who is currently weeding the front garden in Stapley, welcome to the programme. Jane, good to have your opinion with us. My granddad used to overwinter his geraniums in the porch. The smell today still transports me right back there. Susan in West Lothian writes, the flowers that give me most pleasure are my hellebores. Am I saying that correctly? Absolutely. Yeah, a plant that flowers only in winter when we henny balls. Am I saying that correctly? Absolutely.

A plant that flowers only in winter when we need it most. What a treat. I'll try and squeeze in a few more of the messages as we continue talking. But what stood out for me when I was going through your book was the love that you and your mum had for sweet peas. Yeah, yeah, always did. And I think you'll find that, you know, the great majority of your listeners,

if they're interested in gardening at all, they love sweet peas. They're easy to grow, they're incredibly beautifully scented, and there's just a fantastic range of them. But there was one sweet pea in particular. When I used to go to school, junior school I'd wander past this, it was an old bombsite probably and a privet hedge separated it and being nosy, because I've always wanted to be an explorer I went around the back of it

and it must have been June, July and found this fantastic sweet pea in a corner amongst all the weeds and it's a perennial sweet pea as I've found because every year after that I visited it and when we went back we did a program called plant heroes and went back to where I come from and we actually found that sweet pea still growing there I love that story big bunches of it for my mum. Yeah yeah yeah and you mentioned school days I want to take you back there because there is one instance where you

write in your book that you were at grammar school and you had this quiet passion as a teen for gardening because it's often seen as an older person's activity and taking us back to the start of our conversation you believe gardening should be taught in schools. Absolutely, yeah. I've been hounding the government, who knows it might happen now, to make horticulture, gardening part of the curriculum. As we were saying, it puts people in touch, it puts kids in touch with the real world, putting their hands in the soil, actually growing things and having that same excitement of seeing things come up.

But it also puts us in context, you know, that as well as enjoying it, we're also responsible for it. Your work has featured in lots of exhibitions, Chelsea, Hampton Court, all the big shows. And you talk about your gardening community, that you've got lots of gardening friends, that many of them are women who you believe are the most informed. Yet when we look at these competitions, a lot of people say that it's very male heavy. Would you agree? And if so, why do you think that's the case it's changing is it yeah well because gardening like everything else just reflects society and um you know men have tended to be prevalent haven't they but um i think when when i used to exhibit at chelsea lots and lots

of the people who actually did the work grew the plants were women and lots of the people i talked to there and talk to now um are women who are absolutely mad about it i mean when you think way back when we stopped sort of um foraging or sending the blokes out to shoot deer or whatever it was and we actually settled down and created a patch and started to grow plants. Of course, it would have been the women who started that, as it is still today, because they had that experience. They knew about these plants. Yeah.

Just before I let you go, I have to ask you about your gardening rituals. Those boots that you're collecting in your garden, please share. Well, I've got through a lot of boots. I can imagine, Carol, I can imagine. In fact, I'm just hoping that the BBC do a boot allowance, but we'll see about that. But yeah, every time I wear some out, I put them out in the garden they get covered in moss and then we did one year at Chelsea we did a sort of tribute to Gertrude Jekyll and she was called Boots the famous painting of her boots and I put some on the front of my stand some of my moss

covered boots and the Queen admired them and had quite a giggle about it. But then we used them again last year at Hampton Court when we did this enormous garden. The RHS made me an iconic horticultural hero. But the outcome of that was that I had to create this huge garden, which I did with the help of the most wonderful people. Lots of them were women, but there were also loads of blokes too. And we all worked together. You all chipped in. Yeah. Such a pleasure having you on the programme. Carol Klein there on her new book, Haughty Biography. It's out now. Thank you to the many of you getting in touch. I will try and squeeze in your messages about plants, flowers and your memories.

I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Associated with them a little later in the programme. Next, the artist and disability activist Alison Lapper first came to public attention in 2005 when a statue of her, naked and pregnant with her son Paris, appeared on the fourth plinth of Trafalgar Square, where it would stay for two years. In 2019, Paris died of an accidental drug overdose at the age of 19. And now Alison, who was born with focumelia,

which means she was born with no arms and shortened legs, has made her grief over the loss of her son the subject of an exhibition called Lost in Paris. It features in a new BBC Three documentary called In My Own Words, alongside archive footage of Alison and Paris. Alison joins me now, waiting very patiently. Good to have you with us. Thank you.

Let's go back to September the 15th, 2005. That's almost 19 years ago when that sculpture of you, designed by the artist Mark Quinn, appeared and was unveiled in Trafalgar Square. What was it like seeing that for the first time? It was phenomenal. And the only reason being is it was a dreadfully rainy horrible day and we were all getting wet and Paris was on my lap and he was five and as it the veil came off

Paris said mummy you're really beautiful and that that was enough for me I didn't need anything else your lasting memory. Yeah. You were eight months pregnant when you sat for Queen in 1999, but you were originally reluctant to do so. I was very reluctant and I questioned him and I was like, no, I'm not doing this, this is weird. And then eventually he phoned me about a year later and I happened to be pregnant and he was like, that's even better. And I was like, are you serious? So, but once he talked to me about what he was thinking and the concept and whatever, I thought, okay, yeah,

this is going to be a piece of history, my history and Paris's history in the making. Absolutely, the both of you together. Yeah. Let's talk about the documentary. It is so raw in so many parts I think raw feels like the right word yeah why did you want to tell the story in this way I don't think I had much of a choice um I think that Paris somehow um I started painting again because I hadn't for

probably three years after I lost him. And then I did. And he just kept coming through, his face, his eyes, his mouth. And I just thought, what is it that you are trying to tell me here? And then I just kind of, in the end, thought, well, obviously I need to say something about this whole situation and my feelings. I mean, I can talk about it till I need to say something about this whole situation and my feelings. I mean, I can talk about it and I'm blue in the face, but to paint your dead child is a completely different story and feeling. And, you know, I mean, I cried most of the time for two years because that's how long it took me to get the exhibition together.

And there were times when I thought I can't do this what am I doing why am I putting myself out here again but so many people have come up to me since and said I lost a child or children and you know it's really helped because you understand the language of the loss yeah yeah I mean, you talk about in the documentary about always feeling scrutinised and that stayed with me when I was watching, scrutinised when it comes to being a parent, about your ability to cope.

And I wonder whether this exhibition plays into that in any way. It probably does because, you know, even today I'm still scrutinised as a person with a disability. I mean, you know, it's like, oh, you drive. Oh, you work. You know, it's like, come on, people. You know, this is ridiculous. Of course I do.

And it was when I was pregnant with Paris, it was like, you know, people like that shouldn't be allowed to have children that we all have to pay for. I paid for Paris myself. You know, I worked to keep him in a nice home and, you know, to give him what he needed. You talk about a nice home, very different to what you had growing up because you grew up in care. I did. And this documentary takes you right back to the beginnings of that journey. What was that like to watch all that footage again um it was very odd because um it made me realize that i i didn't have any cutie cutie photos of this little baby on you know a little mat or whatever it i was almost like an experiment you know what's it doing

how's it growing um but then at the same time I can remember thinking when we had those times where we were photographed and x-rayed and all the rest of it that it was very rare one-on-one time that you had with somebody and that was really nice I can remember being with a radiologist and going in to the room and actually watching everything being developed and, you know, in the dark room and what have you. So very mixed emotions and feelings because growing up in care is not an easy thing to do. And I've survived it. You know, lots of people didn't, but I'm very fortunate that there's something inside me that drives me on. Yeah. Survived it and plenty more.

Yes. And would you say it would be fair to say that's where your love of art was rooted? I started drawing when I was three. That's one of my first memories. So I've always, always done it. I've spent hours and hours drawing, you know, not for anybody else,

but just for myself. And, you know, even painting Paris, what happened was that I lose myself in what I'm doing, which is probably very similar to Carol, that you just kind of are so engrossed in what you're doing that nothing else really matters. And it's time and space for myself and for my head. And I needed that after I lost Paris. For those who don't understand your circumstances, can you just outline how practically you actually go about painting? I paint with my mouth. So to me, it's the most natural thing in the world to do I'm a mouth and foot painting artist and it's you know that's how I learned to paint I started with my foot had an operation so I had to change to my mouth and as I say to me it's one of the most

natural things in the world to do because I can't do it any other way anyway so you know when you reflect on your childhood and you look at the situation we're in now for example we've got the Paralympics going on we're in the final days do you think things have changed attitudes and language in particular when it comes to I think disability language has definitely changed in the, you know, intermittent years. And I definitely think that art has had a lot to do with that and to play with that. But I still feel we've got a long way to go. You know, if people can still come up to me

and think that I can't talk and that I don't have a brain, you know, people go, I don't know what to say to you. And I'm like, hello is a really good start I'm just like you I just look a bit different and I don't pretend that I'm not different I'm quite proud of that you know no amount of plastic surgery is going to make me able-bodied well maybe that's actually a weight off my shoulders because I haven't got to look like anybody else. You've got very mobile shoulders. They're very expressive. I use them all the time, apparently, yes.

Got Carol watching closely there. I want to spend a few minutes talking about your beloved boy, Paris. You had to watch significant footage of Paris for this documentary. I can't imagine how difficult that was for you. I mean, it's bittersweet because obviously he was, and I know I'm biased because I'm his mum, but he was so beautiful to me and I so wanted him and I loved him like I've never loved anybody or anything ever since.

And, you know, bits made me smile and watching him, but there were other bits where it was just painful. I wanted Paris to have a good life and be happy and all the things I wanted for him and it didn't happen. And it broke me completely you know watching it we watched it again yesterday and you know hearing his voice again and his ambition at the time and what he wanted to do you know it's all gone there's no more history with Paris. It's gone. We'll never make history again. And I think that's part of the loss is that you can't get that back. He's never going to walk through that door and go, hi, mother. sometimes, but also, you know, we'd be out shopping and he'd give me a hug. How many teenage lads would do that?

He always did. I can see you hold those memories very dear. I do, I do. You know, when a child dies, or anyone close to you, but I think parent-child relationship is so unique in that way. They often talk about living a new normality. In your case, there's life before Paris, there's life after. What is that new normality like for you, that new normal?

It's hard. I have a Paris hole, gap, whatever you want to call it, that I struggle with. Sometimes I don't even want to be around. I don't know if I would ever see Paris again, because obviously none of us know. But I suppose I'm a little bit spiritual. And I think that maybe I will see him again. And I think that he has helped me with my art, because I never painted him when he was alive. He was too beautiful in my eyes, and I could never capture him so to do it when he's dead um and I

feel that he kind of pushed me to that and and through that so you know he's definitely still around I mean he had amazing sense of humor and he still plays tricks on me even now I'm sure he does um Lost in Paris is the name of the exhibition. What do you want people to take away from it? I can't tell you what to take away from a visual exhibition. What do you hope they will? People have come up to me afterwards and said to me, you know, I lost a child and it doesn't matter at what age you lose a child. They can be 50. They can be tiny. It's very, very traumatic and it impacts the rest of your life. And people have come up and said, thank you for speaking the language that we weren't able to speak and to talk.

And I think we need to talk about it. We need to talk about death. You know, we don't talk about mental health. We don't talk properly and we don't do anything and it's about how can we do this now how can we you know there is a crisis in schools young people mental health's gone for the roof and they're cutting funding still I don't understand it thank you so much for joining us as Alisonapper. And you can watch Alison's episodes of In My Own Words on BBC One on Monday at 10.40pm or catch up on BBC iPlayer. And of course, if you are impacted by anything that you've heard in that conversation, there are links for help and resources on our website. And you mentioned resources for mental health support.

We do have a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care. A spokesperson said, we would like to express our deepest sympathies to allison and to hall and to all who knew paris this government will prioritize mental health we will provide access to specialist mental health professionals in every school and recruit 8 500 more mental health workers across children's and adult services they do outline other features as well and they add that we will reform the mental health act to ensure people with the most severe mental health conditions get better with more personalised care. Thank you so much for joining us, Alison Lackler there.

I will turn to some more gardening messages because so many of you want to share your experiences about plants and memories. KJ writes, it's nearly four years ago that I lost my dear dad. And in those days preceding and following his passing, I spent a lot of time walking on the local Woodbury Common. The beautiful heather is in full purple bloom. I often notice a heather before I realise his anniversary is approaching. And it reminds me, the purple of heather and the yellow of the gorse is a beautiful splash in sad memories. And Kathy from Finchley writes, I have a large grapefruit tree in a pot in my garden that I planted from a seed at the age of 18. I'm now 64 and it's still going with a trunk thicker than my arm.

Some years it flowers, which is amazing. And it connects me to so many life memories. Do keep your messages coming in. Ellen Burstyn has been a star of American stage and screen for over six decades. She has one of those rare accomplishments, the triple crown of acting, which means she's won an Oscar, an Emmy and a Tony. What made her an icon and perhaps the defining actress of the new Hollywood era in the 1970s is her incredible run of films in that decade. This includes The Last Picture Show, The Exorcist and Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, the comedy directed by Martin Scorsese that won Ellen her Best Actress Academy Award. This week, Ellen, now age 91, is at the Venice Film Festival where she received the Liberatum Pioneer Award

in a special gala celebrating women in creativity. I spoke to her a little earlier and asked her how she feels about getting the award. Well, you know, it's a wonderful award in that it isn't just for doing a good job in one film. It's recognising my contribution to the field, which I really like. I like being abused to the general field, you know, the field of humanity or field of art or field of music. So it's a very beautiful award in that way. Well congratulations absolutely well deserved. I want to go back slightly you've spoken quite openly about your troubled relationship with your mother you've spoken about her qualities the many qualities that you highlight but also what has

been referred to as her abusive temper. I wonder how that's defined you and your career choices as you grew up in those tender years. Well, I'm writing a book right now about poetry and my love of poetry. And in there, I talk about my mother and I really kind of correct the impression I gave in my memoir. Now I say that she was a very conscientious mother in that she always gave me piano lessons, ballet lessons. She dressed me very nicely. She made all of my clothes. She was trying to be a good mother. It's just that she had a ferocious temper. And she grew up in a house where her father administered punishment physically a lot. So she thought that was the way to administer justice or whatever she was trying to convince us of. So there was a lot of physical, what's now called abuse. At that time, she called it spankings,

but it was more than that because it was running around the house and her chasing me with a yardstick. And I didn't really have a father figure. My mother was married altogether four times. None of the men that she married were particularly happy to have a daughter until her fourth husband, when I was growing in and out of the house and myself, who was a nice fellow. And we got along fine. But growing up with the three that she provided, there wasn't a father among them. But, you know, I came across an American Iranian poet who said, art is what survives of what we survive.

So I feel that's true, that somehow the troubles we deal with early on fertilize our innate talent, whatever that is. You left home swiftly as soon as you could with a mere $3 in your pocket. Tell us about that journey. Yeah, I left home on my 18th birthday with a foot that had just been operated on, and I was supposed to stay in bed. But my mother spoke to me in a belittling way, and I thought, I'm 18.

I don't know what I was. And I got up and started packing. And she came up and said, what are you doing out of bed? And I said, well, I'm 18 today. And you always said I was under your jurisdiction until I was 18. So I'm 18 today. You always said I was under your jurisdiction until I was 18. So I'm living home. And I left with two suitcases and began my life. You arrived then in New York City.

You found your way to the actor's studio, of which you are now co-president, the home of Method Acting, for those who don't know. It's run by Lee Strasberg, and Marlon Brando was one of his first members. What was that experience like? Was that you finding a home away from home, that place of belonging? Just one day, it was a moment of clear thinking.

I realised there were actors who knew something I didn't know, and I wanted to find out what that was. And I knew they were all students of Lee Strasberg. So I went to him and I found a real teacher. I could feel guidance come into my life, you know, that I'd never had. And I read a lot about people talking about method acting as though it's making it real. Like if you have to play Madea, do you have to kill your children? No.

It's not making it real. It's making it real to your senses so that your senses respond. 1971, that was the year when you got your big break with The Last Picture Show show you were 39 years old it was um the first of your many famous roles playing unconventional mothers were you ever worried about being typecast no not at all i don't know why i wasn't, but I wasn't. I just felt like, you know, I observed that women's roles were either the mother or the good wife, you know, who stayed home and waited for the husband to come back from saving the world so she could make him a nice cup of tea.

Or she was the prostitute with a heart of gold. There were types. And the young mother was what I was suited to. I felt it was a pattern set before I got there. And I did my best to get into it. Let's turn to The Exorcist. You were playing the mother of a young girl possessed by a demon, but obviously it was an incredible hit and did so well. But it was a demanding shoot, wasn't it? It was a very demanding shoot. But, you know, it was a very creative atmosphere, and that's my favorite atmosphere.

So in a way, I was thriving. And at the end of each day, I had a ritual. The costume designer would come into my dressing room, and we opened a little split of champagne, and we each had a glass of champagne, laughed about the events of the day and kind of unwound. And I went on about my life. Let's also talk about your Oscar for Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore. Interestingly, I've been told that you were asked to direct the film initially? It was offered to me. When I read it, I felt it was very amusing and wonderfully written.

But again, it was kind of that stereotype of what a woman was. And I wanted at that point to make a film about a woman as I knew women to be, because we were right at the beginning of the women's movement then. And John Calley, who was the head of Warner Brothers at the time, he asked me if I wanted to direct it.

And I said, no, I'm not ready to direct and act at the same time. I wouldn't know how to do that. And he said, who do you want? And I said, somebody new and exciting and I knew Francis Coppola by then I can't remember how we met but we did and I called him and I said who's new and exciting and he said look at a film called Mean Streets and I looked at Mean Streets and I was so impressed with the level of reality in the film, which is what I wanted in Alice. And we called Marty into a meeting.

And I said to him, I want this film told from a woman's point of view, which as far as I know had never been done before. And I said, what do you know about women? And he said, nothing, but I'd like to learn. And I thought that was the best possible answer a man could ever come up with to me. So we went into business together. And I must say, I had no idea

what a brilliant choice that was going to turn out to be because he certainly has become the master of cinema now. Yeah. And it was wonderful working with him. Things became trickier in the 80s and 90s. This is when you were in your 50s and 60s. In fact, The Exorcist director, William Friedkin, once lamented that you were an underused woman.

Does that ring true? Did you ever feel like that? Underused? No. I remember I was offered a film for television to play with Walter Matthau. And she was a woman who had the beginning of dementia. And I felt that I was too young to be playing somebody with dementia. So I aged her. I put a gray wig on and I made her be someone at least in her late 50s. And moving forward in age at that particular point of my career turned out to be a good move as far as acting rather than trying to hold on to my youth, which was certainly slipping away. So I ended up giving myself a wider range of ages to play. Now, did I work as much? No, but I didn't really expect to as I got older.

I'm just glad to be 91 now and still working. I just feel like it's a remarkable turn of events. And that's interesting because about a decade ago, you said that you could no longer make a living from acting. That is what you shared. And that was seen by some as an assessment almost on the state of the acting industry and how it doesn't give older women enough opportunities. Do you still feel that way? How do you feel about the situation now?

Well, I mean, certainly there aren't a number of parts that there once were, certainly. And certainly women's careers do fall off. No question about that. I just mean that I, without realizing what I was doing, was promoting myself to the grandmother level instead of the mother level. And that was another, you know, territory of roles available. But is there as much work for women in films after 45? No, not really.

But, you know, there is grandma. What role would you like to play? Because we know this is not the end for you. Beyond grandma, beyond the mother. You know, I'd like to play women that are full human beings, that are not just a role. I mean, a role in my son's daughter, wife, mother, grandmother, great-grandmother.

You know, full human beings. I like to play full human beings who are full besides their role in the family. The actor Ellen burst in there to whom we sent a huge congratulations for getting the Liberatum Pioneer Award at the

Venice Film Festival. The Maori of New Zealand have a new queen. 27-year-old Nawai Hono Itepo is the youngest child and only daughter of the previous king who died last Friday. And she was chosen by a council of Maori chiefs and crowned yesterday. She is only the second queen in Maori's eight monarch reign and leaders have described her as a new dawn. I'm joined now by the broadcaster and commentator, Marnie Dunlop, to learn more about this story. Thanks for joining us, Marnie.

Thanks for having me, Kia ora. Before we learn about Nga Wai, the new queen, Marnie, I know you yourself are from the Maori community. How would you describe your culture to those who don't know much about it? Oh, where do I start? And where do I do that in five minutes? Well, we're obviously a tribal people, indigenous to Aotearoa and New Zealand. We were colonised by the English and we signed a treaty in 1840. And as a bid to try and get equal footing as our lands were being alienated from us, as well as our cultural practices and everything that comes with colonisation,

there was a decision made in the 1850s to form the Kingitanga, so a similar monarch that was chosen by a number of chiefs. So, you know, we're very tribal, sub-tribal. My tribe is from the very north. We've got a complex relationship with the Kingitanga. But the one thing that the Kingitanga has always represented has been unity and to unify Māori during the time of confiscation of our lands and completely erosion of our people.

And so this is the institution, our long-lasting institution, that is here to this day, and it's still doing the same in the same attempt to unify in what we call kotahitanga. That was brilliantly done in about a minute. Thank you. Tell us about Ngā Wai, more about her, please. Yeah, sure. So Ngā Wai Honuiti Pō, as you said in your intro, is the youngest daughter of Kingi T youngest daughter of king who passed away a week ago so quite an interesting mix of emotions in the last week where tens of thousands of people

came to grieve and pay their respects to king but on the day of his burial which was the sixth day after he passed away before they take him on his journey back to his ancestral mountain to be buried, which is along the river in Awaka and then up a very steep hill called Taupiri, the announcement is made of who will succeed him. And that was his daughter. I mean, in recent years, we saw her. I mean, she is young. As you said, she's our youngest monarch that we've had at 27,

but steeped hugely in her culture and her kapapa haka, so our performance arts, our language. And it was very clear that she was stepping into that role in the last couple of years, especially in her early 20s. So although we expected it, you never know. And so when we saw her come through the gates just before, where she had to be thrown with the same Bible that the first ever king was thrown with, led by behind her the Te Kou Marua, the Council of Chiefs, all of which were men. And they put her on the throne. She was made Queenie. And then she led, so with grace, with so much hurt and grieving, you know, her father, but also having to step into this huge

and incredible role. And like you said, you know, our new dawn, and that is what it's representing for many of us in Aotearoa, for many Māori, especially Māori women, is that in a time with our coalition government and, you know, contentious laws and policies being introduced to erode again and rewrite our Treaty of Waitangi as well as taking, in terms of fast-tracking land issues as well as our children

around a lot of other, which is a whole other kind of series of kōrero. But it plays into the wider question about what people want from her. Yeah, exactly. And I think this is what she represents. She represents a new generation, the generation in which we reclaimed our Māori, our language back, our practices, and unapologetically who we are.

And she's been coined already by some as the Queenie o Manu Motuhake, and Mana Motuhake means self-determination and so essentially moving us into still unifying and as they grieve in this time and we all grieve in this time and they'll have that private time to do that when she steps

into the roles and when she starts appearing as our Queen but I think it says it all for people who are in the crowd hearing children yell out, our queen is coming, our queen is coming, and being so excited and joyous and seeing themselves. And she also has a moko kauae, which is a chin traditional tattoo. So, again, this new what we call reanga, this new generation of our young people coming through and taking that space,

and especially as a wahine, as a woman. Interesting. I understand she was chosen also above her older siblings, including her brother. But a fascinating story. If you'd like to learn more about this, do pop over to BBC News Online where we've written that up over on our Australia pages.

But for now, Marnie Dunlop, a broadcaster and commentator who has stayed up very late for us, thank you for joining us here on Woman's Hour to tell us more about the Maori queen, Nga Wai Ono Itepau. And thank you to all of you who have been getting in touch with your messages. Winsome Hall writes, my plant memory from the 1960s is a wonderful tall jacaranda tree that grew beside the swimming pool at our boarding school in South India. I was always fascinated by the amazing blue flowers that covered the tree and have loved seeing a jacaranda ever since. Thank you for your messages and thank you for your company. I'm back tomorrow with Weekend Woman's Hour. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. It's the 1980s and a young

bodybuilder named William Dillon leaves rural Illinois behind for sun-drenched California in search of a supersized American dream, to get absolutely jacked. When you're muscular, when you're big, you get respect. But he's about to discover the secret to why so many of the bodybuilders around him are getting ripped quick. This is the story of the biggest illegal steroid operation the United States had ever seen. Literally hundreds, if not a thousand needles

came down like the heavens were falling. I'm Natalia Petruzzella. From BBC Radio 4, this is Extreme. Musclemen. Listen first on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started

like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have

to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.