Woman's Hour - Relationships between the generations during lockdown

Episode Date: May 15, 2020

At the end of the week when government advice started to ease the lockdown we take stock and look at how relationships between the generations have been affected by social distancing measures and shielding. Woman’s Hour listeners tell us how the government advice for over-70s has affected them. We hear how families have responded and how adult children and parents are negotiating their changed roles. And we discuss how best to communicate when you see risk differently.With Gabrielle Rifkind, Psychotherapist and Director of the conflict resolution organisation Oxford Process, and Professor Jane Lord, Professor of immune cell biology and Director of the Institute of Inflammation & Ageing, University of Birmingham.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It's the Woman's Hour podcast. It's Friday the 15th of May 2020. Hello, very good morning to you. Today on the programme we would love your take, your involvement please, on the subject of intergenerational relationships in lockdown. How are you getting on? It's a very good open question that. Are you an adult child struggling to deal perhaps with somewhat wayward parents? I'm sure they wouldn't regard themselves as wayward, by the way, but you might. Are you that wayward parent who will not be infantilised or told what to do by your child in their 30s, 40s, 50s, maybe even older? Our guests this morning,

our expert guests include Gabrielle Rifkind, psychotherapist and director of the conflict resolution organisation, the Oxford Process. And also with us Professor Janet Lord, Professor of Immunology and Director of the Institute of Inflammation and Ageing at the University of Birmingham. We want your tweets and your emails, please. Tweet at BBC Woman's Hour. Email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. And I certainly don't need to use your name if you email the programme and you'd prefer to be anonymous.

Here's one tweet from a listener who says, I've got an 80-year-old mum who's going to be playing golf on Saturday and a dad of 79 with heart and kidney conditions. He doesn't believe in the virus, says it won't affect him. From Susie, a few times, got his hair cut, bought newspapers and it's all nonsense, he says. Stay safe doesn't apparently apply to him. From another listener, my 82-year-old mum lives alone, was excited at the prospect of meeting a friend in a park yesterday for a socially distanced walk.

Although both she and her friend are a bit deaf, so I'm not sure how this is going to work. I advised her to have a wee before she left and she said, yes mummy. So there is a fair amount of resentment out there at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter if you're going through this or have been through this or have something to add to the conversation. First let's have a brief word with political correspondent Helen Catt. Helen good morning to you. Morning.

Just tell us then what are the rules for the over 70s now as we speak on the 15th of May 2020? So the official government guidance for the over 70s at the moment is that you are advised to stay at home as much as possible. And if you do go out, take particular care to minimise contact with other people who you don't live with. So that is the official government guidance. It hasn't actually changed much or at all really since the beginning of this outbreak, which was the guidance that was given then was that you follow the same rules as everybody who's under 70. But if you're over 70, you should be much more stringent about applying them. And the reason for that is that you are considered to have a higher risk of severe illness. So if you were to get COVID-19, it's considered that you are likely to get it more seriously than a younger person.

And that is why you should be applying the rules more stringently. And formally, you are within a group that is known as clinically vulnerable. Right. And you could be the fittest 70-year-old known to woman or man, you're still in this category. Yes, this is if you don't have an underlying health condition. If you are, to all intents and purposes, a fit and healthy 70 year old or older, you are still judged to be clinically vulnerable to COVID-19. Now, that all seems relatively straightforward hearing you explain that. Why was there any confusion? Well, it's

partly because there is this other group which is known as the clinically extremely vulnerable. And these are people who do have underlying health conditions, people with certain cancers, for example, with severe asthma. And at the beginning of this, the government said that they had to stay at home initially for 12 weeks. It's now been extended until the end of June and not have any contact with anyone else at all. And before those rules were put in,

there was some talk that the over-70s might be put into that group. In fact, Matt Hancock, the health secretary was asked about this in an interview on March the 15th and said, yes, it was in the action plan. But actually, when the government then set out what was going to happen the following day on the 16th of March, the over 70s were not in that group. So there was some confusion in the initial stages. And then again, when we moved into looking at what might happen in terms of easing the lockdown restrictions in England, there was some speculation that because COVID-19 seems to affect different age groups differently, that perhaps lockdown could be released for different age groups at different times. And so there was talk about whether or not people who are over 70 would end up being subject to greater restrictions. And that all got sort of confused in with this group of

people who have to self-isolate to not go out for this length of time. So it sort of ended up being a lot of confusion with that group. But emphatically, they are not in that group. Helen, really appreciate you coming on this morning. Not all over 70s are the same. I mean, listen to this list of phenomenal women. Who have we got here? Elizabeth Warren, Anna Wintour, Meryl Streep, Helen Mirren, Julie Walters. They are all technically, well, they are not even technically, they're in this group. They are in the over 70s. Let's bring in Professor Janet Lord. We've also got listeners lined up to talk to us too about their experiences. Roksana is in London, Nadine's in Surrey,

and in a couple of moments we'll go to Linda in Stockport. But first of all, Janet Lord, Professor of Immunology. The government advice on the over-70s is sound, isn't it? It is actually. I know that, as you said, you've quoted several people who would have seemed perhaps not to be vulnerable. But the data show us that over 80 percent of deaths from coronavirus, this new coronavirus, are actually in the over 70s. And I've got some sympathy with the government because it's, you know, just not going to be practical to say well come in have a test see how great your immune

system is or isn't and you know create the advice from there they've really got to look at the data and it's very clear that the vast majority of the deaths and the serious symptoms from this virus are actually in older adults in the over 70 year olds. And they are not being infantilised, it is about protecting them. Exactly. And I think, you know, if, you know, you love your older parents and your older friends and relatives, then you are concerned for them when you see these data. And I also say to people, you know, in some ways, there's nothing unusual about coronavirus. You see the same pattern with the flu every year. It takes away the older adults because as you age, your immune system just isn't as able to fight new viruses as they arise.

Let's talk to Linda in Stockport. Linda, I wouldn't dare even begin to infantilise you, but tell us a little bit about yourself and your circumstances. Well, I'm locked down with my husband i'm 70 years old um before we were locked down i had a very busy and active life i had a temporary job and then suddenly one day um a list went round at work that said that these various groups of people, people with diabetes, pregnant women, the over 70s, should go home at the end of the day and not come back to work. So that put me in a vulnerable group and I was a bit taken aback. Had you ever considered yourself vulnerable in the past? No, not at all. I consider myself to be a strong person, emotionally strong and physically strong.

I have pretty good health. I've always been fairly active. On my 60th birthday, I backpacked around the coast of Spain to get to the ferry. You know, a few years later, I went off to Spain on my own because my husband was doing jury duty. So I didn't feel vulnerable at all. I felt invincible. And being put in this group has made you reassess yourself? Well, it hasn't really made me reassess myself, but I realise as time has gone on, I suppose it's because I've heard quite often that I am in a vulnerable group,

and I am starting to feel increasingly vulnerable. So now, I'm quite reluctant to leave my home. I'm lucky I have a home with a garden so I can potter about in the garden. And I find I don't want to go to the supermarket. I don't want to be out and about really because I'm becoming increasingly wary of other people, which is not like me at all. Okay, well, I think you make a really good point. Stay with us. And let's bring in Gabrielle Rifkin, psychotherapist. Gabrielle, will our listener, Linda, reestablish her old confidence? Is it all going to come back? Well, I think what she describes is very real. And I love her resilient spirit and all the stuff she did. I would say a lot of these feelings are temporary, that who we are is always who we are.

And if we engaged with the world in a joyful way, as she described, it's still there in her. But the world has also changed and she is going to find a different way to navigate it. She talks about the anxiety about going out. I think many people express it like that at the moment. And other people can look like a threat. And so what we're talking about is how do we move to making our world safe enough in time to farry out and making sort of wise judgments about how we do it. And I'd be pretty, I would be sure that that spirit is always there and will come back and it might need modifying or coming back into the world in a different way. Right. Is any of that helpful, Linda?

It probably will be temporary, but it's learning how to navigate the new world as it will be after lockdown and all of that is lifted. It's just at the moment, it's difficult to know quite how it will be. I mean, I listened to the PM's speech on Sunday and my immediate reaction was, oh, right, well, I'm just going to carry on as before. I'm not going to do anything different. And so, you know, that's really how I've been. I mean, I know it's only a week, but I haven't changed anything. You know, I haven't been to meet anyone in the park or anything like that. Can I just mention a tweet from a listener who says, what is it with the naughty oldies? It's so frustrating. My 86-year-old mum has the keep calm and carry on spirit rather than stay at home and stay safe. She says she's missing pub lunches and having her hair and nails done.

From Helen, these carefree pensioners are an insult to all the working people making huge sacrifices to keep them safe, losing income and jobs, while these more vulnerable groups enjoy index-linked pensions. Well, I guess you can't blame some people for feeling that very real resentment. Can I ask, Linda, have you got family members instructing you to behave in a particular way? My son is... My elder son is adhering to the guidelines very, very strictly. And he wouldn't even, one of my sons comes to check that we're all right.

And he stands at the gate and we stand at the front door. And we have those shouted conversations which are becoming the norm. But one of my sons won't do that because he says no. He thinks that's an infringement of the rules. Actually, you know, I'm adhering to the rules pretty strongly. I have, I suppose we're all able to make our own decisions but my decision is, the message was stay at home, protect the NHS, save lives and And I really took that on board.

And so that's what I did. Many people, Linda, will say you are doing exactly the right thing. Thank you for that. Here's an email from an anonymous listener who says, I'm 72 and I'm fit and healthy, no medication. I exercise for up to an hour a day, daily, aerobic, muscle tone and stretch. Since lockdown, my life has been empty, although I do see my daughters when they drop off shopping.

I'm fed up with us over 70s being told we're vulnerable and told we need to shelter. We've got common sense. Give us the facts and let us make informed decisions for ourselves. I am fed up being referred to as an elderly or OAP. I think a senior citizen sounds more respectful. OK, well, that's definitely a view. Roksana is able to join us now from her pretty busy intergenerational household.

Good morning to you. Good morning. Now, tell us a little bit about who you've got and who lives there and what they're all up to. Right. Well, we're a house of around 12 or 14 of us. And it's myself and my husband, my eight kids. And then we have grandparents. And we have a people um within us and we have to do loads of work and um it is it's a challenge but it's a happy challenge um because it's something which i've uh i've missed uh especially since the children have gone to university and all that stuff and now everyone's back home uh in the nest. But there are a few challenges, especially

with the COVID, but it's like we've established a new ecosystem in the house. Which is currently working for you. Who is the most disgruntled resident of the household in terms of stuff they're missing? The least disgruntled. Or the most, I don't care. The most. The most would be better, I think. Yes, of course.

Well, the most are the grandparents because they're very busy when it comes to work all the time and outdoors, and now they're completely locked in and it's been now about three months now and it's really, really eating them away because they can't do anything which they normally would do, and they find themselves, like, jailed. It's come to a depression level that, you know,

they want to, like, break free and then just go out and do the work that they always do. We should say that your in-laws are pharmacists, aren't they? Indeed, yes So they're actually, what's more frustrating from their point of view is that their professional abilities have never been more important and I think your mother-in-law has got, well she can actually frustratingly see the business because you've got a camera on it

Yes, of course, because you have to see the shop floor firm if you can't go in to see what's happening and obviously some workers who are down with covid so you're less with um you have you don't have much stuff and so you can see people are struggling and to get stuff done and you itch to be there and you want to be there and even how you know the strategies come up every day that perhaps you can do this, perhaps you can go via this route and get to that place and do the work. But unfortunately, you have to put dampers on it because it's not good for them. If they catch something by accident, there's going to be trouble. Of course. And their qualifications are all important, but they are relatively elderly.

They're in their late 70s and early 80s. Yes, that's right. And one is terminally ill. So just for the sake of one, the other one can't go. Because if something's brought back, then straight away it's going to be, you know, put the other grandparent in a really bad position. Yes, I get that completely. What would you say about that, Gabrielle? How do you

go about navigating what could be somewhat challenging family waters? Yes, although I'm struck by how skilled you must be in this multi-generational household and the fact that you've all learned to live together. I suspect you could teach us a great deal but the grandparents who you describe as depressed and you know my reaction is why wouldn't they feel like that they've sort of had loss of identity not and they can also see that they in some ways could have been useful could have been needed but cannot be there which is very difficult for them. But at another level, so I would say maybe not depressed, but maybe sad or feeling the loss, that's real. And there's nothing wrong with those feelings. We often think that we're not allowed any feelings about anything, but feelings can

actually be pretty healthy and can be communications and can tell us things. I was wondering, I mean, you spoke very beautifully about what's happening in your home, but you're such a professional family. Whether you have professional conversations about this or whether it's possible to have conversations that really recognise something a little more intimate, that, you know, there is something, there is a real loss for them. But if there is, maybe there's another role for them, another role for them in this wonderful family of yours.

And I'm wondering that within your culture, whether these kind of conversations go on. Rukhsana? Yeah, well, we are trying to make things better. For example, things that would be done in the shop would be brought home. For example, ordering. So the ordering book comes home and then my mother-in-law can sit and she can order all the stuff in her kitchen. So she doesn't need to go to the shop. And also the books can be done.

So stuff like writing checks and following up medication which can't be bought. That's all practical stuff. I wonder whether Gabrielle might have been hinting at the sort of raw emotion of all this. Have you had the occasional, tell me you've had the occasional ding-dong or raise voice or I'll start to feel bad about myself, Roxana. What would you say? Well, because I have a four-year-old, she keeps us very busy with all her chatter

and she diverts everyone's attention. So it doesn't, thank God, it doesn't come to that level. No, I think that's interesting. I wonder whether, I mean, four-year-olds can be hard work in all sorts of ways, but life-enhancing as well to have them busy bodying about, which I guess adds to the gaiety of the situation.

Rukhsana, thank you very much. Janet Lord, just listening to that, what would you want to say about it? Yes, I thought some of the, particularly the intergenerational living is just amazing and there's been all sorts of research showing how positive it is actually, not just for your mental health but from several aspects of health to have that intergenerational mix. Some of the listeners may remember that program, the care home for four year olds. Yes. Which really demonstrated this well. So I think that's super. But I've also got sympathy with the was it the tweet from the 72 year old who was exercising for an hour a day? Because a lot of our research has shown that people who do take that level of exercise do have really strong immune systems.

Yes, and it's important to, sorry to interrupt, but it's so important to acknowledge that so many over 70s take fitness and health very seriously. And you're actually saying you're doing a good thing and keep doing it. Absolutely. And even for those, again, listening to Roxana, you know, if the grandparents can go out and get that daily walk, it will really not just help their mental health, but their physical health and their immune system as well. So I think that daily exercise, it was in there right from the start and promoted.

And that's why it's so important. Alex on Twitter says, my mum's 82 has severe asthma but announced yesterday that she's been going to the chippy every Friday she also goes to the cash point to pay the gardener who's been calling in every week I live in Cornwall she lives in Cheshire another tweet my ma is 86 and she has leukaemia for some reason my screen has just done a bunk so we'll try and get that back. Oh, it's all... We're having a computer meltdown here. It's a shame because that was an interesting tweet.

I will read this email instead, and I think this makes a good point. Here in Canterbury, there are many grannies and granddads who regularly care for their grandchildren nearby and further away. We've seen them through babyhood and nursery and primary and secondary school. Their working parents have generously included us in their lives up until now and have enjoyed every minute of it, as have we. They've put up with our peccadilloes and our opinionated ways

and we've enjoyed the intimacy with our grandchildren that this has afforded. It's not to say this is a one-sided benefit. There's been savings too on childcare costs and emergency cover and it's been a great comfort for the parents to have us at hand. It's been a privilege for us to watch our children growing up at such close, our grandchildren, I'm sorry, growing up at such close quarters and we are missing them more than we could have imagined. Gabrielle, I think that makes a good point because grandparents have done so much

for so many of the younger people in their families and they may well be feeling perhaps a little discarded. Oh, absolutely. I think it's really easy to feel redundant, a sort of loss of identity. And it presents you with a vacuum about what are you going to do with your life? I mean, I'm 66 and I identify with some of the stuff that has been described in terms of redundancy. I remember in the early stages, in fact it's a um when uh i was hoping our grandchildren would come um and and see us and that and in fact my son um sort of thought i was being a little delusional a little pollyanna-ish don't i fully understand the risk and very parental with me and i sort of felt rather sort of hurt at that moment thinking well you know, I want that relationship as a grandparent. I'm sort of missing it. And actually what I realized later when his wife actually had COVID and got very sick, that all these things are an act of love when these limits are placed on us. But at the same time, they create this chasm in our lives that we think, how are we going to fill it? And how are we going to find stuff that's really meaningful

at this stage? And it's a creative challenge for all of us. I want to finish the tweet I started. My ma, who's 86 with leukaemia, lives with my sister, so is thankfully safe. She wants to go out and accepts that she can't so is now moodily lounging around the house. We've told her it's payback time for being grounded when we were teenagers. At BBC Woman's Out on Twitter,

good morning to you. This is Jane Garvey and this programme is all about the intergenerational soup that we're all swimming in at the moment. How are you getting on with older parents, perhaps? Are you an adult child who's feeling that maybe you're trying to police slightly resentful older folk and they're not really having it? By the way, on Monday's edition of Woman's Hour,

I'm going to be talking to the documentary maker Mark Dooley about his new film Repeat Attenders. This is about musical theatre mega fans, super fans. So we'd love to hear from you if you have repeatedly seen the same show. Why and which one was it? At BBC Women's Hour on Twitter or you can email the programme via our website. And just an early warning, if you're into podcasts, The Dreadful Fortunately is back this Friday.

That features little-known broadcaster Fee Glover doing verbal battle with me and a host of celebrity guests, and I'm delighted to say that our guest for the return of Fortunately, which will dump into your system, whatever that means, at tea time tonight, is the

mega guest and chef Prue Leith. She is never ever dull, Prue, and I can tell you she certainly isn't dull on this week's Fortunately. So make sure you get that. It's a podcast for the bewildered, and it will probably enhance the first drink of this evening. I can't be absolutely certain about that,

and nor am I necessarily recommending that you retreat into an alcoholic fog over the course of this weekend. I myself am on the non-alcoholic lager at the moment. Actually, a brief mention on that, Gabrielle, because we have had some interaction from listeners who say that alcohol is playing perhaps an increasing role in family life. And I was a bit lighthearted about it then, and I shouldn't have been. Is this something that concerns you? Well, you can certainly see that if you're on your own at home, drinking could well become a sort of more entrenched pattern. I think all kinds of things that we do in everyday life

are at risk of becoming more extreme. And I suppose the question is is how do we stay connected so it isn't a solitary life? Because it is the relationships, the connections, the human contact that actually perhaps makes us want to go less towards drink or other forms of coping and it's a strange moment but I think the one thing that really makes us feel alive is human connection. Stephen says, this is on Twitter, the vulnerability of the over 70s is overstated. If you have underlying conditions,

if you're older it is more likely that you will, you are more at risk. The statistics I've seen suggest that you are not more vulnerable than other age groups if you have no underlying conditions. Right. Well, let's put that to Janet Lord. Is Stephen right or is he completely wrong? I'm afraid he's probably wrong. So he's right in some way in that certainly people with multiple conditions, we call it multimorbidity, is much more common in older adults. So the two do go together,

being older and having these underlying conditions. But we really don't know enough yet. There's really been no good studies that have, as I've said, looked at older adults and tried to stratify them into those that are, you know, ridiculously healthy and that they do fare well. But my prediction is they would be if they're regular exercising regularly, you know, keeping a good body weight, etc. Then they probably would be less vulnerable. So he's part he's partly correct, but there's no solid data on it. Certainly as it relates to coronavirus. Let's talk to Nadine, who's a listener in Surrey. Good morning to you.

Good morning. Now, tell us a little bit about your own story, your own life experience, where you're at at the moment, Nadine who's a listener in Surrey. Good morning to you. Good morning. Now tell us a little bit about your own story, your own life experience, where you're at at the moment, Nadine. Well, unlike the other two ladies that have been on, I'm actually on my own. So I can go for days without actually seeing anybody. Right. But by the same token

I am not just self-isolating. I am going to the, fortunately I have local shops, so I go to the local shopsating. I am going to the... Fortunately, I have local shops, so I go to the local shops. I don't go to the supermarkets. And I do try to be sensible. Well, I don't try, I am sensible. And I just think that a lot of what the ladies have said previously is right.

We are all different, and everybody should be taking a bit more responsibility for themselves, not just being told what to do. Tell me, you can't have any more than I could. You can't have known this was coming. Oh, no. No. And you were, I think Linda, who started us off this morning, was really interesting on the point that she was making, that she's been made to think of herself in a whole new way. Yes. You start to think, as you say, you start to think that you are becoming vulnerable. And that's a terrible thing to do at our age.

You know, we need to be out and about and socialising as much as we possibly can, being careful. You know, there's no need to be sitting right on top of people. You can talk to people from a distance. You can go outside as much as possible and talk to people while you're out. I don't see why there is such a lockdown situation. Well, stay with us.

Janet, Nadine really is a little bit resentful, I think, and many people will understand why. What would you say to her? I think she's partly correct. You know, that get out and have some daily exercise has been proposed right from the start. And it's now that, you know, you can go out more than once. And she's correct. You do not need to absolutely stay down locked in your home. If you've got a garden, you can go out into the garden or take your walk and have that conversation with somebody

at that two metres distancing. I mean, the two meters distancing, you know, this stay alert is really the best advice. I always say the virus isn't something like a flea or a nip that can leap from one person to another over great distances. You know, that two meters is there for a very sensible reason. And if you keep that distance, actually, you know, that's really a prime way of protecting yourself, no matter what age you are. Nadine, can I ask, are you proactive about, I don't know, texting a friend maybe and arranging a phone call? I've managed emailing. Yes. And I can message my children, my daughters. I'm not very technically minded, but I am, you know, I'm in touch with them

i could say something yeah gabrielle come in yeah ah okay i mean i really admire your spirit and of resilience and thing and also saying very clearly i've learned how to manage this the only point i would add to this is um that I think we only know what we know. And you're taking all the right safe moves. But our imagination doesn't take us beyond what our own experience is, because we become very hermetically sealed in the worlds we're in. And I had a very rude awakening when one of my dearest friend's husband died. And it moved me.

Oh, that was so annoying because Gabrielle was onto something really significant there. It was also a bittersweet moment when her phone thing went off because that's the tune my phone plays. So I suddenly thought it was me then for a second and the relief when I realised it wasn't. Gabrielle is back. Yes, carry on. You were telling us about your friend's husband, Gabrielle. Yes, yes. And I think it was a rude awakening for me because I had convinced myself I was invincible, nothing would touch me. But the nature of this virus is there's an unexpected

quality to it and that we only stay within the realms of our own imagination. And we somehow have to both decide we're going to manage life, but also see the bigger picture that it can be very serious at the same time. So it's how, you know, if you're healthy, it's hard to imagine being sick. If you're sick, you can't imagine being healthy. So how do we get beyond our own experience? That's the challenge to us. I think that's a very, very important point. Nadine, can I ask, without being too intrusive, has the virus touched you personally?

Has it got close to you in any way, as Gabrielle describes? In the fact that several of my friends' husbands have died, but they were ill beforehand. I see. But in my immediate family, no, we are very lucky. And when your friends' husbands died, did that not make you reassess the situation perhaps a little bit? I know you say they were already frail. They were ill to start with. They had serious illnesses to start with. And I have a brother-in-law

who has lung cancer. So, I mean, my sister is sort of staying in for him. So, he is obviously very vulnerable. And he's younger than me. So, you know, age is irrelevant, isn't it? Have you got a garden somewhere to sit? I have. I am very lucky. I have a garden. I have a park nearby, which in fact I haven't actually been to. I do actually play golf and we have actually just opened our golf club. So there is the prospect of me being able to go and play golf and actually see people and talk to them from, you know, two metre distance. Yeah. OK. And the impact on your mental health, if you are able to go and play golf and see a friend,

that will be considerable, will it? Oh, yes. It might stop me drinking. That's the other thing. Well, I wasn't going to mention that, but tell me a bit more about that. Have you found yourself drinking more? Oh, much more, yes.

Have you? Very badly. And I mean, when it was lovely weather, you'd sit in the garden and, you know, start lunchtime when you're having lunch with a glass of wine. And by the end of the day, you finished it. Yeah. Well, thank you. You won't be alone then, Nadine. I'm sure I'm not.

No. And thank you for being so honest. And, you know, that's why I've been investigating the wonderful world of non-alcoholic lagers to make sure that that doesn't happen. Can I suggest that you have a look? There's some quite good ones out there, honestly. I believe you. You don't sound very sure. Nadine, thank you so much for talking to us. It's a pleasure. Thanks for asking me. Take care and I hope you get the opportunity to get out there over the weekend and enjoy a bit of sunshine in the garden that I know you feel very fortunate to have. This is from Rebecca.

Good to hear, Woman's Hour, proving that it doesn't matter whatever your age, you can still think that government instructions are about you rather than a policy to save as many as can be saved. And that, Janet Lord, is the key, isn't it, really? It is really. I mean, the government's just working on the statistics. And as I've said, you know, for any infection, whether it's the winter flu every year, it's always the older adults that are much more at risk. And it's really interesting listening to folks really not liking the word vulnerable. And it might be just changing it to thinking more at risk, because I think vulnerable is a very, very negative word. And I sort of got some sympathy with the listeners and the people who've texted in. So perhaps just thinking of judging risk and nobody wants to put themselves at

increased risk. And if you know that, you know, as you are older, your immune system doesn't work as well, even if you haven't got an underlying condition, it just doesn't work as well. And so you just got to judge that risk and say, well, actually, no, I'm not going to put myself at risk. But equally, I'll do everything I can to reduce that risk, keep that distance, keep exercising, and really just trying to reduce that level of risk for myself and for those that I love. Well, Barbara has got that message. She's emailed to say, I'm over 80 and I know it is likely that my immune system is not as good as it used to be. That is why there's a restriction

on the over 70s, super fit as they may well be. Gabrielle, a quick word from you on that vulnerable word. Do you think it's the wrong word? Yes. Well, I think it is and it isn't. You know, we don't like to think we're vulnerable. We think vulnerability means weakness and we're going to collapse and not cope. But the opposite is always true. And sometimes when we can recognise we're vulnerable and not be frightened of it, this is actually where our strength lies. And it's almost as if can we manage both at the same time? But, you know, I also take your point about language. You could use different language. But I think

we're frightened of vulnerability. We don't need to be. We can also be strong in the face of vulnerability. If you need help, is it the right thing to do to, and it can be very hard to summon up courage when you do need help, but you need to be proactive, do you? And perhaps text a friend and say, you know what, I'd really like a conversation at some point over the weekend. Can we arrange one? Oh, I think that's brilliant. I think one of the things that's so important is us reaching out, looking for emotional support. That's not weakness. that's actually strength that's about being

connected and having the contacts we all need to stay human i need advice and i think a lot of people will need this on how as an adult child you speak in the right way to your parents or to other people you care about who might be vulnerable and And I've used that word again. Gabrielle, some top tips, please. Oh, yeah. Yes. Lots of talk about children being parental with their parents and parenting their parents and taking over. I mean, I think sometimes there are difficult conversations that need to take place, but they need to take place in the right conditions in which, first of all, don't have any conversations when emotions are high. When people are feeling very kind of wound up, anxious, maybe angry about things, try and have these conversations when the temperature's lower and try and make them conducive. I think what we're talking about is a negotiation. We're talking about understanding the different family points of view,

friendships points of view, community points of view. And we sort of have to get into each other's minds. We have to use our empathy muscle and imagine what it's like for the other person, sort of get into their shoes, get into their moccasins. And so how we have these conversations matters. And when we get very strict and we tell people what to do, they usually push back against us and they usually get a bit defiant and actually more like a sort of adolescent. So how do we create sort of conversations where we're just very respectful of the very different experiences of everybody in our families?

Yes, it's a bit difficult, isn't it? When you've been, let's say you've been a caring grandparent, as one of our earlier emails said, and you have fought hard to retain your independence and you've kept yourself fit. It's flipping galling when the phone rings and your adult child, let's say your daughter, tells you you've now got to behave in a completely different way. I can understand why people are, to put it mildly, irked. Yeah, absolutely. And get a little rebellious and defiant. And, you know, we want a little bit of that energy, but at the same time, how do you make safe decisions? But there's also, the onus is also on the parent, the older parent perhaps, to understand that, for example, their middle-aged child might well be wrestling with a multitude of other challenges, including them. It does work both ways.

It does work both ways, but also at the deepest level, it's actually your children are trying to keep you safe. They are terrified something is going to happen to you and you're going to lose, they're going to lose you. There's nothing more profound than that. So as I said before, you know, it comes from an act of love. It comes from a very good place, but you don't want to feel bossed around at the same time. Janet Lord, how are you feeling positive? I think that the single thing that crops up most in the conversations I'm having is, I don't know where the end is. I can't focus on anything in the future. I've lost my residual blobs of optimism that kept me going. Can you

give us some good news about what might lie ahead in terms of a solution to this? Yes, I think it's hard to see at the moment. But at least I think the governments and in the devolved regions as well are at least planning to try to get us out of this situation, gradually easing the lockdown. And I think that came in the speech at the weekend from the prime minister that now we can go out and we can take more exercise. You know, we can see some people in our little bubble. So I think there is light at the end of the tunnel. And I think it's really good news that the deaths and the cases of COVID have really dropped suddenly, you know, particularly in the last few weeks. And we've seen this in Birmingham in the hospital that I'm based in, the Queen Elizabeth,

that the cases have really dropped off. And I think that's all good news that although it's been really hard for everybody, you know, it does seem to be working now. And I think that's what we've got to take on that, you know, although it's really sad that a lot of people have lost their loved ones, that, you know, for the rest, you know, what we've done in lockdown does seem to have worked and things are getting better going forward. And I think particularly the exercise, I'm a keen exerciser, so that only being allowed out once a day was very hard. And so I'm enjoying my second phase of exercise now.

And the final word went there to Janet Lord, Professor of Immunology and the Director of the Institute of Inflammation and Ageing at Birmingham University. Also on the programme, Gabrielle Rifkind, who is the psychotherapist and conflict resolution expert. She was, I thought, full of good advice, as of course, Janet just had so much expertise and was also reassuring. And we spoke to two listeners, Linda and Roxana and Nadine, and I thought they were all really interesting, slightly different perspectives on what's happening at the moment,

but good to hear from all three of them. Barbara says, I've been in lockdown with my mum who has dementia for eight weeks now. She's 91 and luckily she doesn't want to go out. I've been in a parent role since her dementia, but it's hard for everyone who's having to try and stop parents going out, I'd imagine. Yes, I'm sure it is, Barbara, but equally,

I don't suppose you're having the easiest time of your life either. Jude on email, my 95-year-old mum won't believe that the government can tell you no-one is allowed in your house. She simply won't have it. She's so indignant as it didn't even happen during the war. Of course nobody is going in, but seriously, she is very lonely and thinks that neighbours have fallen out with her.

And that is a real shame, isn't it? Christopher, I sympathise with the frustration felt by older people, but as I've told my wonderfully active and normally very cheerful 81-year-old grandma who is really struggling. It's not any behaviour or lack of common sense of hers that worries me. It's that of other people. My fortnightly expedition to get groceries shows me how careless of the safety of other people so many people are. Yeah, you see Christopher's onto something there, isn't he? He's right. And from Penny, my husband is 82 and had a major operation in February.

I'm 71 and we've been isolated since then. People, including my son, my sister, my niece and volunteers have been shopping for us. However, I feel so guilty that other people are putting themselves in danger for us. I want to go out, but I dare not for fear of bringing the virus home. I'll never forgive myself if one of these helpers gets the virus. Three months is a long time, whatever you do, says Penny. Sorry, I'm just turning a piece of paper over there to make sure I get Penny's name right.

Yeah, Penny, try not to feel too guilty. I would imagine that many of the people helping you out are very happy to do so. In fact, I'm sure they are happy to do so. It's good. It makes us all feel a bit better if we can be of some use, I think, at this time and help people who perhaps are a little less fortunate. Sally says, I was 72 on Tuesday.

I'm active, I'm healthy and I'm widowed. I returned from Sydney the day before lockdown Sally says, but I have become increasingly lazy, rising late, going to bed early and spending the time in between gardening, painting and walking in my local countryside. It is the loneliness which I hate. I was beginning to get my life together as a single person. I feel I'm going to have to start all over again once normality returns. How I long to have someone to discuss things with, to get me a G&T or to cook for. I miss my family, but I've discovered how much my three daughters have my interests at heart. Oh, Sally, thank you for that. And I'm sure they have, by the way. I gather from that email that you probably have one daughter in Sydney, and maybe even two, I don't know. But you've got

one local daughter, which is brilliant. And I think it's a good thing to be able to say that the loneliness is getting to you. I think some people have been in denial about that. And we all feel, I've certainly included myself here, you can feel very lonely at the moment. And I think it's of some benefit to at least be able to say so and just get it out there.

Sandra says, I can't write much as I've just got nine days to take advantage of as I will be 70 on the 25th of May. I am dreading the changes overnight from adult to OAP. Oh, Sandra, I mean, it's just the timing is unfortunate. I dread to think what you're going to get up to over the next nine days.

Take it easy now, she said patronisingly. You can write in and complain about me. Listen, I'm only 15 years off the rules applying to me as well. Thank you for that. Martin, tell your older listeners who are ignoring the restrictions that the decision to ignore restrictions is a decision to endanger other people's lives. We often say it's the younger generation who are being narcissistic, but maybe we're all that way and should learn not to be so much. It's usually our senior citizens who teach us these things, but is it the case that the middle-aged are the ones who are now taking this all seriously? Martin, thank you. From Elaine, as one of the so-called naughty pensioners of 76, it's not all about intergenerational conflict. I adhere to physical distancing. I wear gloves

when going out and a mask as well. My three children tried a bit to remind me of what I should do, but quickly changed when I responded. My daughter said I was clearly responsible and my choices were mine. Thank you for that. From Diane, my parents think it's me keeping them in, not the government guidelines. I think this is due to complex and unclear messaging and I would like the government to support me in keeping them safe by being clearer. They are 88 and 89 and are finding this difficult to grasp. It's a daily battle, says Diane. From Kath, who doesn't want her full name used, that's fine, Kath. I am over 70. I'm aware that I may not have many more years to live. And quite honestly, I don't want to spend the rest of my life unable to be with my grandchildren.

And I would rather take the risk of catching the virus than be in lockdown. Yeah, I mean, Kath, I know where you're coming from. But as other emailers have made clear, it's not necessarily about you catching the virus. You could be spreading the virus to somebody you will never meet by acting in that way. And I guess we're all part of this and we have all got to do our bit. And I know by saying that I just sound deeply patronising. This is from a listener who is called Sue. I'd like to say thank you for the focus today on the over 70s.

I live alone, but I'm in an apartment where I can talk to other residents from my balcony. But my recommendation for where there are two people or more is they buy good quality board games, stimulating and fills the time. I've tried Quirkle, Triolet and something called Rummikub. Rummikub? R-U-M-M-I-K-U-B. Rummikub, yeah, apparently, that's right. Lucinda barks in my headphones. I am loving reading bedtime stories to my grandchildren on WhatsApp and playing adaptations of board games on Zoom. It will pass, says Sue.

Sue, thank you. And it will pass. You're quite right. And you sound a very positive person. Not easy to be all the time at the moment. Let's end on something a bit more cheery, though, from... No, I won't mention her name. Lockdown has brought very positive elements

to my relationship with my mother. It had been extremely difficult for many years and for periods of time we have been totally estranged. Relations have been a lot better over the past couple of years and I'm very glad now that we're in lockdown. My mum has been persuaded to have Zoom and FaceTime chats with us for the first time. And last week we had a magic moment when she told us about not being able to share a poem she'd prepared for a Zoom poetry sharing session. I asked her if she would read it to us there and then, and she read a poem she taught me when I was about 12

and which I still recite from time to time. That feeling of intimacy was quite wonderful and it made me cry. Even in lockdown, relationships can evolve and become deeper. And just because we haven't had much good stuff around lately, I'm just going to end there and leave us with that thought from one listener whose relationship with her mum, formerly rather tricky, has become a little easier. Thank you very much

for getting involved over the course, not just of today but of this week and indeed this entire lockdown period. We are back live on Monday morning. Particularly need your thoughts about those musicals you've seen more than once, because that's what we're talking about on Monday morning. Thes you've seen more than once, because that's what we're talking about on Monday morning.

The one I've seen the most, without any doubt, is Blood Brothers. I think I've seen it four times and I'd happily go again. In fact, I might perform one of my favourite songs from Blood Brothers, if you're not careful, on Monday morning show. Have a very good weekend, as best any of us can, and we'll see you three minutes past ten. Must get that right. Monday morning. I'm Sarah Trelevan.

And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.