Woman's Hour - Remembering Dolly Parton, Karen Carney, restriction zones for violent offenders, poet Georgie Jones

Episode Date: August 26, 2026

Singer-songwriter, actress and philanthropist Dolly Parton has died aged 80. She was a feminist icon, although she denied the former. Known as The Queen of Country, she paved the way for many women in music. To remember her, Nuala is joined by Country singer-songwriter Kezia Gill and music journalist Jude Rogers.The Ministry of Justice has announced the introduction of “restriction zones” for serious sexual and violent offenders that would confine them to areas just a few miles wide after leaving prison. Government ministers say the scheme is designed to give victims greater freedom but some campaigners want more detail about how they will work . To discuss further Nuala is joined by advocate on domestic abuse and stalking, Rhianon Bragg.Broadcaster and former footballer Karen Carney OBE has been awarded the Professional Footballers' Association's merit award for her contribution to football. She joins Nuala to explain what winning the prestigious award means to her. Currently it’s illegal to import a sex doll that looks like a child but not to manufacture, sell or own one. Munira Wilson MP explains why she wants to change the law and close a “dangerous loophole”, and Nuala also hears from Dr Alex Bailey from the Lucy Faithfull Foundation – an organisation that works to prevent child sexual abuse.'Poetry is everywhere’ - that’s according to spoken word poet Georgie Jones. Her honest takes on the realities of womanhood, friendship, body image, love and self-doubt have struck a chord with audiences and seen her shoot to fame on social media. Georgie joins Nuala to discuss why spoken word poetry is striking such a chord with women online.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Olivia Skinner

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Hello and welcome to the program. We pay tribute this morning to Dolly Parton who has died at the age. of 80. Dolly was an icon for so many and particularly women. We're going to hear about the impact of her life from country music star Keziah Gill and we'll also play you a little of when Dolly came to Woman's Hour. And I'd also like to hear from you about the significance of Dolly Parton in your life. Now that could range from music, ambition, glamour, steelyness, philanthropy or inspiration. Maybe it's one of her cracking one-liners that influenced and motivated you. You can text the program, that number 844-on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour,

or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number, 0300-100-44. Or on most of your smart speakers, you can say Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment. I'm really looking forward to hearing what you have to say about the great. We'll speak about her in just a moment. Also today, in what's been described as a world first, restriction zones for serious sexual and violent offenders will be introduced to England and Wales come October, so curtailing their movements.

We're going to hear, though, why some campaigners still have concerns. And later this hour, the warm and witty poet Georgie Jones, who is a viral sensation on social media, she is not impressed with efficiency. She will tell us why, through her, performance in the Women's Hour studio. And also today, we have the MP Munira Wilson. She wants to close a

legislative loophole that she believes will help combat child sexual abuse. We'll tell you a little bit more about that story also coming up. And we will have Karen Carney. She is celebrating, receiving the 2026 Professional Footballers Association Merit Award. So we're going to recognize her outstanding contribution to football. It's all coming up. But let me begin with singer, songwriter, actress,

philanthropist, Dolly Parton. She was a feminist icon, although she denied that moniker exactly. The Queen of Country paved the way for many women in music who came like Madonna, Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodriguez, and of course the many country music stars. She grew up in rural Tennessee before becoming really the biggest star, not just of country, but really I think globally just as an icon. Her music crossed into the pop charts. Her songs often drew on her own experiences of poverty, love and heartbreak, and exploring themes of female empowerment and also faith. Well, Martha Carney spoke to her on Woman's Hour. This is back in 2001, and she had just released her country music album Little Sparrow. Martha asked her what her motivation was in going

back to her roots in country music. First of all, I've been in country music. First of all, I've been in country music for so many years. And this is the music that I loved and came out of the Smoky Mountain singing, this old mountain music that's kind of rooted in that old world of England and Ireland and the folks that came over, and that's kind of how I grew up with it. But it was the kind of music at that time I couldn't really make a living at. So I, in country music, you've got to think like a business person in order to afford your clothes and your buses and your band. So I had to kind of expand. And I've been very fortunate that I've been able to do that. It was at an age in my life where country music had changed a lot in the United States, and they don't play a lot of the older artists

on radio. So I was kind of in between what to do because I wasn't really being played in the mainstream country. And I thought, well, what am I going to do musically? Because I can't just give up on the music because that's my first love, even though I have other business things going. I thought, well, I have to do something as an artist. And I thought, well, now it's time. You don't have to do it for money now. You know, you can just do it. You've got a fair amount of that. Well, I have enough now to where I don't have to, like I said, I had to get to, get rich in order to sing like I was poor again. So I thought, well, this is a good way to do this.

And I just thought, well, I'm just going to do the stuff that's true to my heart and true to my roots. And people have just responded so well with this. And I just love that they're accepting it and I'm enjoying doing it. Although your background is an inspiration to your music, you're quite clear about not romanticizing it. I mean, in one of your songs, in the good old days when times were banned, you say, no amount of money could buy for me the memories that I have of then, but no amount of money

could pay me to go back and live through that again. And that's true. I was so fortunate to have been brought up the way that I was in just instilling quality and instilling things to know about people. You know how if you've suffered yourself and seeing your own family suffer, the only thing I regret about my childhood is seeing mom and daddy have to work so hard, you know, to never really achieve anything other than just getting their family raised. But out of that, we had a very strong, you know, strength in God.

and faith that really got us through. But I would not want to go back and do that again. I enjoy having money, being able to do things for my family and for myself. But I'm so happy that I was brought up just the way I was because it makes me appreciate everybody, everything, and the value of a dollar for sure. Of course, the voice of Dolly Parton there, it is so familiar to us whether she's speaking or singing.

Well, joining me to discuss her legacy and her impact and influence is arts journalist Jude Rogers. Jude, good to have you back with us. I'd love me to speak to you. And we also have with you the singer-songwriter, Kezia Gill. Good morning, Kesea. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Jude, I'll come to you in a moment

because I know you interviewed Dolly Parton as well. But, Keziah, let me begin with you. You've won numerous country music awards. What impact would you say Dolly has had on your career? I mean, Dolly is the impact. You know, there was absolutely female artists before Dolly and there was, you know, women making music and having success in music. But what Dolly did was she made it an equal playing field.

And she did it in such a way that she was unapologetically herself. And I think that authenticity is what allowed women, not just at the time, but generations passed. So sort of now you're talking 60 years on since she really made an impact. it's still influencing women and making us believe that we can absolutely be ourselves whether that's we want to wear a lot of makeup we want to wear our hair a certain way

we want to wear a certain kind of clothes you know we're still in a world where we think or should we tone it down should we be less should we be quiet and that's it that's in any walk of life music particularly and I think it was never an issue for men and what Dolly did

you know she argued I'm not really a feminist but she absolutely was the voice of women and she rocked up in her rhinestones of a big hair and a red lipstick and all the talent to match and no one, nobody could argue with that and that's why it didn't open the door, it blew it wide open.

I wonder, Jude, was it because she was such a huge talent that she was able to break through those stereotypes and be herself, even though she talked about it as artifice, but in the sense of not worrying and what other people think, because you know,

we've spoken on this programme in recent years about young artists having to conform to a very narrow parameter of what it means to be a female star.

I think it was this kind of amazing. Alma, in a way, you know, what was interesting is a home, apparently she's very different. There was a lovely interview

I saw online last night with Alex Jones, the one show, saying how she'd met her backstage without the makeup, without the wigs. And she was very natural, and that's how she kept her life

her own. But she also loved, you know, the razzle-dazzle and getting out there. And I, you know, if anyone listening, I saw her live, I saw the O2, 2008. What an experience to see that kind of show. We need that in our lives as well. You know, show business and the razzle-dazzle of it can be so wonderful, liberating. But yeah, her talent was unquestionable. You know, obviously, like a lot of people just listening to a lot of the songs, listening to some of her early records. And the lyrics are so finely wrought and and so economical, but kind of, she says so much in them. You know, in her second record, which is one of my favourists, just because I'm a woman.

She talks about telling her husband why he shouldn't, you know, judge her for, you know, having been with other men before their relationship in the way that kind of men don't get judged. She was a pretty early song of hers about a woman whose partner leaves her, and she has a stillborn baby, that she was told not to release, which she released. You know, she was, she did all these things, but she did. did it through this vehicle of a kind of such an accessible, warm, tender and charming, you know, pop star. You know, she just glittered, you know, and so much, you know. When I interviewed her, she sang Hey Jude on the phone of me first of all and she said,

I bet you've never heard that before like I've never heard, hello Dolly. And you just thought, I'm in, the charm is there. How wonderful. But that's it. I suppose we all, anytime we watch it, we do see that magic, that sparkle, that she, made other people feel at ease, I think, even though she was this superstar and I've heard it from some of my producers in Women's Hour that had the look and privilege of meeting her one-on-one as well. Kasia, tell me about how your music has been influenced by her. I think the honesty

of writing is something I got from Dolly. She wrote in a way, take for example a song like Jolene, It's actually a pretty tragic subject. You know, that song. It's about a husband potentially getting a bit frisky with the woman at the bank or certainly her wanting to get frisky with him. And, you know, it's quite tragic. It's quite sad because there's no, it's not a stay away from my man kind of message. It's a please don't take him from me.

Which is actually quite anti-feminist. But again, she's so clever that she actually takes the power back. And she's just, you know, that song is so short. sort of 12, 14 lines. And she's tells such a huge story in it. And I think nowadays, songs can take monster craft because everyone's trying to be clever. Everyone's trying to write the hook.

Her songs were just hook from start to finish because there was no fluff. There was no added extra. It was just from start to finish, brilliance. And that's because it was honest. It was like she was telling you a story. Like, you know, you sit around and fire at the end of the day and she tells you a story.

That's what her songs were like. And also, I mean, very heartfelt, but so funny at times, like whipsmart. Did you ever meet her, Kesea? I didn't meet her in person, but I got the pleasure of being in the same room as her at CMA in 2020. In 2024. And you know, it was remarkable. That room was filled. There was probably 10,000 people in that room.

And the minute she walked onto stage, the energy, it was like an electric shock had risen up through the floor. And I was right at the back of the room. and I'm kind of, I'm on tiptoes trying to see her, and I could just see the top of her wig. But it's like, you knew, it was like a glimpse of the Messiah. You knew you were in the room with greatness. And I'll never forget, literally chills, head to toe,

like, there she is. She's real, almost. I have heard that, Kezi, as well, that when she would leave the room, like all the energy would go with her as well, even though everybody is left smiling, dumbstruck in her wake. Give us a little bit more insight, Jude,

and what it was like to speak to her. It's funny because, you know, I look back at the interview now, and I was thinking right through the kind of artifice of Dolly Pot, I was younger and I was thinking, I'm going to, you know, puncture all this. And then I was very charmed. She wouldn't, you know, she really didn't take any prisoners when I was asking some very silly questions. And I wish I'd interviewed her when I was a bit older

and kind of gone back into, you know, some of amazing things she's done in recent years, you know, kind of the funding of the Medina vaccine. You know, well, the philanthropy throughout her life, especially, You know, the imagination library is an extraordinary thing to have done, inspired by her dad who couldn't read. It's just so amazing. But, yeah, she was, you know, there's this ball of energy. And I always think about 9 to 5, the song and the film.

I saw the film later in life, and I was, I think anybody does know Dolly. If you actually dig into her, the films as she made and the songs she made, you know, the strength and the strangers and the weirdest, 9 to 5 is this actually bonkers, amazing, psychedelic, you know, you know, film about kind of getting back on men at the workplace. And she wrote writing this song with, you know, the click of her nails. The acrylic nails. The acrylics on the typewriter.

All those little details about what it's like to be a woman that have such humor. And her humor came across in that interview. And I think that's quite rare sometimes with really big, you know, pop stars, you know, kind of, and if they can convey some of that, you know, just made us so accessible. And it was clearly from her heart. Yes, indeed. steel magnolias, let's not forget. The best little horse has in Texas.

I was going back through, I mean, she was such a figure in the 80s, 70s and 80s when I was growing up and then came back again and had this regeneration, I think, with other generations more recently. Kesea, though, she was savvy, though. You know, you're a woman in the music business. She didn't, she resisted giving the rights to Elvis for I Will Always Love You. Such foresight. Yes.

And you know what? That I think, I mean, who says no to Elvis, right? Dolly, that's who? But I think from the word go, she knew that it wasn't going to be enough to just be a great singer, to be a pretty little thing. She knew she had to be savvy because it's a really tough industry. And people will absolutely take everything away from you. And like everything, she did it with such class. So, you know, she'd say no to you, but she'd say no with a smile and you'd still walk away from you.

feeling like you'd want. And I think her ability to do that probably came from being raised with nothing. So knowing the value of what you have, you know, if that's all you have, you hold on to it. You know, she had lots of brothers in her life and it was nice. She said about her family and her upbringing, you know, I've known more good men than bad, which was saying I've had a career in the music industry is quite something. So I think, you know, she was probably brought up as one of the boys. And, you know, she did it in rhinestones and lipstick. She was like, you know, I remember watching a documentary recently and Jane Fonda said, underestimate Dolly Parton at your own peril. I think that just sums up who and what she was. They always speak so lovingly about one

another. You can only imagine what it was like behind the scenes on 9 to 5 in that particular film. So lovely to hear your memories. Thank you. very much for sharing them. Why don't we go out with... This was a crossover hit because of course you move country to pop and then back again. Really, I suppose, wiping away a tear

as we listen to a little off her 1977 track. Here you come again. Oh, I know. I feel awful interrupting that. It's all about just when you're ready, when you've got your resolve, you're ready to move on and then he comes back in your life.

Dolly Parton. Thanks so much to Jude Rogers and Kezi Agil for sharing. their memories and for your messages that are coming in. Here's one. Our granddaughter now aged eight, lives in Baltimore. She was lucky enough to receive a Dolly book every month

until she started full-time school. What an amazing woman. Here's another. Jolene had Auburn hair and eyes of Emerald Green. Those lyrics mean a lot to me as a green-eyed redhead. After being relentlessly teased for my hair, skin and freckles all my life, that one song holds these characteristics as being something Dolly couldn't compete with.

I just thought, wow, that's a different angle. I dressed as Dolly when my sisters and I had a big chest party back in 1997 and needed help opening my cans of beer as my nails made it too difficult. RIP, the lovely Dolly. 8444-844, if you'd also like to share your memories. Now, I want to move on to another story. It's been described as a world first. Serious sexual and violent offenders could be confined to areas. just a few miles wide after leaving prison.

The Justice Secretary, Alex Norris, announced these plans to place restriction zones around offenders in this scheme, set to launch in October for England and Wales. Now, instead of exclusion zones that you may have heard of previously, that's where offenders can't go into that area. They're usually placed around a victim's home

or place of work. Offenders instead will be restricted to movement only within a specific area. Government ministers say this is designed to give victims greater freedom and reduce the possibility of unwanted contact. But some campaigners are concerned that there isn't enough detail about how these zones will work and how they'll be enforced. Rianne Bragg joins me an advocate on domestic abuse and also on stalking.

She became a campaigner after she was stalked and also held hostage at gunpoint by her ex-partner. Rianne, welcome to Women's Hour. Good to have you with us. You have spoken to us in the past. If it's okay, do you mind telling our listeners a little off what happened to you and why you became an advocate? Okay.

So, welcome and thank you for having us on. I became an advocate through my own lived experience of stalking in domestic abuse. The upshot of what happened was, as you've mentioned, the final incident being held hostage at gunpoint. Our abuser was later sentenced and received a sentence of nine and a half years. years, four and a half to be served in custody. He was then released on license, so managed by probation in the community, which included an exclusion zone. So my children and I, as part of that process with probation, had to justify the size of that exclusion zone where we lived, where they

went to school, hospitals, workplaces, and it felt really unjust. And although I was told the exclusion zone we had was significant in size, I still felt at risk, I felt at risk my children, And if I think about it, he was only about 50 miles away. And for me, one of the big questions was when he chose to break it, if he chose to break that zone, and he was GPS monitored, how long would it take before the agencies got to him? Would he get to us before the agency's got to us? I understand that. But this is a new proposal. First, your reaction to it so that whoever a perpetrator may be, that they would be restricted to a zone as opposed to an exclusion zone.

Absolutely. So join the campaign because I felt so injustice, so unjust about the situation. And Di Parks has initiated this idea a couple of years ago. It made perfect sense. And as a group, forgive me. Let me interrupt you for one moment. You mentioned Diana Parks, who's a leading campaigner for restriction zones. Her daughter, Joanna Simpson, was killed by her estranged husband back in 2010. That's absolutely right. And from that tragedy, Di and Hetty have achieved, Heddy Buckworth Nanton, Joe's best friend have achieved so much. So as a group, we really welcome that the government has taken on restriction zones. And they have a genuine potential to improve safety when implemented with efficient GPS tagging. But the potential isn't enough. And victims need certainty. The agencies involved really need the resources. And the public needs transparency and answers.

So let's drill down into these. What is your first concern? Well, I suppose there are two main concerns. And one is the time scale. Okay, let's stop on that. Yeah. So, timescale, what's your concern with that? I've lost Nula's sound.

Oh, sorry. You can't hear me? Can you hear me, Riannon? Maybe. I'm so sorry, I can't hear you, Nebula. That's okay. Why don't, we'll try and rectify that issue. And I will in the, oh, I think I have you back, Riannon.

Yeah. Yeah, great, sorry. Sorry. No worries. You mentioned timescale that you have a concern with that. What is the concern with the timescale? We're looking at early prison release, starting in early October. We still don't know which offences will be covered.

As a group we've asked for coverage of all serious crimes. There will be thousands of victims who don't know whether or not their perpetrators will be released. Probation don't know what they're going to have to be managing yet. Probation has been very open about not being able to cope with their current workload. And just to give a picture, I know we're being told that, recruitment has been happening. But actually, there are retention issues as well. I was told at the weekend about one probation officer who has put in for early retirement before, in their words, they die from the stress or are killed by a client. So it is a really, there are so many holes in

this system that need to be sorted out and answered before. Before it goes ahead. So would you, are you advocating for a push back off the launch? Currently, Alex Norris. has said October. It will completely depend on who they choose to release. Right, I understand. So you want to know more details on early release before they move forward with this world first, as they're calling it.

Who will restrictions zones cover? Who will the restrictions zones cover, which kind of, what will they look like? Will the restriction zones be a significant distance away from where the victims live? Okay. To the consequences of breaches. Okay, so two other issues there.

What is, according to you or other campaigners, a significant, restricted area? Is there a certain distance you're looking for, for them to be away from the victim? Well, do you know what? Maybe we should look at it as a time instead of distance. Okay. You know, I referred to how I felt in my own situation. If a perpetrator were to break a zone, how long would it take them to get to where the victim is. I understand. Bearing in mind

how quickly could agencies respond. So things like that. If there's a breach, what's going to be the time parameter that agencies have to respond within? I understand. Then you're concerned about consequences. You talked about, for example,

there's an alert, maybe with the GPS tracking, for example, that goes to authorities that somebody has breached. But you want to know the consequences if they do? Absolutely. And The whole tagging system has to work well. There was a report by the National Audit Office earlier in this year,

which just revealed significant failings within the system. Circo have the Home Office contract. I think their line was that by the second attempt at a physical visit, they still hadn't fitted nearly 40% of tags. Where, when there's alert, does the tag response, does the alert go to? In my understanding, it doesn't go directly to probation or the police. there are too many areas where this could go wrong. And so much it's got to go directly to them

and they've got to have the resources to be able to respond immediately. So let me read a little from the MOJ, the Ministry of Justice. Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, Alex Norris, who announced this last Sunday. But this is his statement saying, no victim should fear the shadow of an abuser on their back.

That's why we're putting limits on dangerous offenders, confining them to tightly controlled areas. in giving victims greater freedom to get on with their lives. And with GPS technology, helping probation, keep track of offenders' movements, those who step outside the boundaries can be quickly identified and face being sent back to prison. It is simple.

Offenders should carry the consequences of their crimes, not their victims. A little further, which probably is a bit that interests you. Further details on eligibility will be announced in due course. The government will work closely with victims groups and other stakeholders as this measure is rolled out to ensure it's operating as intended. And I very much welcome that,

but it's that not having any details and not knowing how. I think we have to remember, this is going to disproportionately affect women and children, okay? With some of the offenders that may be released, they are very targeted on their victims. I am so conscious, given my own experience,

how significantly the threat impacted my children and I, I feel the stress, that super high anxiety about an uncertain and potentially dangerous future is already being caused to thousands of victims. You know, the clock is ticking. There is no certainty. There is a huge negative impact on medical physical health. Let me run another couple of things by you, Rianne, and what have you.

The Conservative Party have said the way to protect victims is to bring forward emergency legislation which would stop the early release of thousands of criminals. Do you agree with that? Again, it comes down to the detail. until government tells us who is going to be released. Nobody knows what to do. The offenders aren't having the work that they need done with them prior to release. Well, that's interesting.

You get to the offenders, which is really bringing me to my next question, which is when we talk about restriction zones, for example, we don't know, I think, how long a restriction zone might be in place for an offender. I imagine it would vary depending on circumstances. Do you have any thoughts on that? I mean, do you believe there is potential for rehabilitation and full freedom of movement for some offenders after they serve their time in prison? Some offenders, that may be possible. However, there needs to be recognition that there are offenders who cannot be rehabilitated and where the risk, the threat to the victims, is too high to allow that to happen.

What this absolutely should not be is a measure that victims have to fight for. There shouldn't be a measure that they have to justify any areas, as you do currently with exclusives, It shouldn't be a measure that comes up with annual renewal. It should be one that's there for longevity. We need to just remember, these people are only being released because of prison overcrowding, not because they finished the sentences that were given to them. Some may come to the end of their sentence, but I understand what you're saying. Rianan, thank you very much for joining us.

That is Rianne and Bragg, an advocate on domestic abuse and stalking. And if you have been affected by anything you've heard in this interview, you can go to the BBC Action Line, where you find links to help and support. We're going to go to Karen Kearney in a moment, but just before I do, I've got a board full of messages about Dolly Parton. Here's Michelle in Nottingham. What a gal. Whether you liked her music or not,

she was a force for good in this world. I doubt we'll see her like ever again and all her good works done without toning down her signature style. Here's another, Julie. I had the delight of meeting Dolly in the 70s when I worked as a banqueting florist at the great. in her hotel in London. She gave me a dollar tip, which I'm ashamed to say,

I immediately got exchange for English money. She was a tiny woman with a pretty face wearing a beige long mackintosh, and she'd short, light brown hair. You would have never known who she was if you hadn't been tipped off by the staff. Your thoughts, the significance, the influence, the impact of Dolly Parton on our lives. We're taking your messages today and get in touch with us in all the usual ways. on social media or email us or text us 844 or your smart speaker. Growing businesses deal with the same problem.

Too many tools, too much back and forth and not enough time. Odu helps bring it all together. It's an all-in-one business management platform, fully integrated from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, so your team can spend less time chasing information and focus on growth. Whether you're in retail, manufacturing or service, Odu gives you one place to manage your business. Visit Odu.com to book a demo.

It's ODb-O.com. Get more with BBC Podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like Evil Genius, Good, Bad Billionaire, and You're Dead to Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. Let us turn them to sports journalist and former England footballer Karen Carney OBE.

She has just been awarded at the Professional Footballers Association, the PFA Merit Award, for her contribution to football. Karen has had an outstanding international football career. Let's look at some of the stats. Scoring 32 goals in 144 appearances for the lionesses. She was also part of the team that won the quadruple for Arsenal, winning the League, the FA Cup, the League Cup, the UEFA Women's Cup. And since leaving professional football, she's gone on to become a sports journalist, a football pundit.

Probably saw her covering the World Cup this summer. And as if that's not enough. She also won the last series of Strictly with her outstanding performances. Karen, you're so welcome back to Women's Hour. And congratulations. Thank you very much. Good morning to you.

How you doing? Very well. So probably maybe a late night last night, I believe you got the award at a ceremony. How was it? Yeah, it was a really good ceremony And I've enjoyed listening to your coverage about Dolly Because on the way home last night

I was listening to all her tracks and music and stuff So I just have to say what an icon We're on Women's Hour And to have someone like her That we've been able to, you know, experience in our life What an absolute joy and an absolute inspiration So yeah, I've really enjoyed your coverage this morning up Thanks very much Karen

I think she was that sort of person which I suppose you are doing too of being able to move into different areas and different industries really and excel and very inspirational in that way as you are with your PFA merit award

alongside Kenny Daglish I mean it is a male dominated industry that you have been in the first time this award was given to a woman was 2019 not really that long ago to Steph Houghton. There has been separate men's and women's category since 2022, really recent history.

So how does it feel to be that woman? You know what? I was really humbled, actually. Really, really humble to receive the award. Because I genuinely hand in my heart. No, there's an army of people that drive particularly the women's game forward. And I think there's so many deserved candidates.

And, you know, so I was really humbled that I had the privilege of receiving. Even it last night. It was a great evening. Some fantastic people were there. And like I said, really humbled because I don't just do it for individual awards or accolade. I do it just from a passion and love to drive the game forward. And, you know, I always say I signed up to women's football when I was like eight or signed up to football. And it's a lifelong commitment. So I'm signed up to that contract for the rest of my life. So I'll do whatever I can just to keep driving it forward, helping and supporting as best as I can, really. So on that point, you were appointed by the government

to undertake a review of the women's game, which was published in 2023. One recommendation was the Football Association fixed the talent pathway so that we can have generation after generation of world-class lionesses, for example. How would you rate the progress thus far? That's a good question, isn't it? I think you'll always rate the progress by the success of the team, won't you?

So so far, we've won back-to-back European championships. we've been in a World Cup final but obviously the task ahead is to make that to continue because that's where there you get the kind of virtuous cycle of seeing it and you can be it and obviously then that drives everything else forward but we've got a lot of work to do

we all know that within the women's game where exactly do you think Karen if you know that you would like you see a challenge or an opportunity if we want to use that language it's an opportunity I don't want to be disrespectful to people that work really hard to try and make this change positive and there's a lot of people doing that. So it's not like doom and gloom.

We're doing great things in the game. But I think obviously the more talent from inner cities, the more opportunities that we can create for girls to play to stop that dropout rate at 14, whatever the reasons are to keep investigating that and keep making sure that we have as many girls playing football as possible so that everything keeps improving. And, you know, I mentioned the lioness is there,

but the pathway doesn't mean you have to go all the way to be a lioness. You know, you've spoken time and time again on this show that being involved in team sports is a massive bonus for whatever you want to go on and do on in life. So that's what it's about as well. But like I said, we've got a lot of work to do,

but we're doing a lot of good stuff as well. Manchester City Forward, Cadesia Shaw. She won women's player off the year. You're only in your 30s, but you are an elder stateswoman now of women's football. I'm holding on. I've got one more year. I'm holding on. How do you feel about all the new talent coming up?

It must be pretty fascinating because as you've talked about, you know, you've really been playing football since you were eight. Yeah, well, I feel old now after that question. But it is. I mean, look, it was great. You know, it was so good to see all the players up there on stage last night win their awards. And you mentioned Kadeisha Bonny Short.

I mean, she hasn't signed a brilliant contract for her personally and shows the drive of the game and how far it's going forward. So really thrilled for her. She's a top talent and glad that we could keep her in the league. And we're seeing so many other players wanting to play in our WSL and obviously the WSL too as well because it's two fully fully professionalised leagues and we're really proud of that. And yeah, it's an exciting time.

And obviously the league starts next week. So I'm really excited to see how that pans out. Lovely to have you on. Congratulations once again. We're very happy to celebrate Karen Carney for her PFA Merit Award. You can read more about it on BBC Sport as well. Thanks so much for joining us, Karen. Now, I do want to turn to a discussion next,

which you may find distressing and disturbing. You may be shocked to hear that it is not illegal in the UK to own a doll with childlike characteristics which is capable of being used for sexual purposes. It is illegal to import such dolls, but possessing one is not an offence. The Liberal Democrat MP, Manera Wilson, believes this is a dangerous legislative loophole that needs to change. She's bringing a private members bill.

It's called the Childlike Sexual Abuse Dolls Offences Bill. And it aims to make the possession and manufacture of these dolls a criminal offence. If it passes, it will mean that police will be able to seize these dolls. And those who own them could face a prison sentence. So that would not happen at the moment. I'm joined by Minera Wilson and also by Dr. Alex Bailey, who is a very. forensic psychologist at the Lucy Faithful Foundation, an organisation whose mission is to prevent child sexual abuse

by intervening with people at risk of causing harm. You're both very welcome to the programme. Nair, let me begin with you. I mean, I was very surprised at the law as it appears to stand. What first brought it to your attention? Well, thank you for having me on. But yes, like you, I was surprised to find these things even existed. let alone were still legal to possess in this country.

And everyone I speak to seems to have a similar reaction. This gap in the legislation was brought to my attention by government officials and police officers. And as you suggested, I was drawn in the private members bill ballot. It's a mechanism that allows MPs of any party to bring forward legislation. And over the years, there's been a vehicle for bringing about social change as somebody who campaigns on children's rights and has done since my election

when this issue and this gap came to my attention. It stopped me in my tracks and I felt for the safety of children across the country this gap needed to be closed. I mean, people might ask, how is it illegal to own indecent images of children, but not a doll? Well, I'm shocked as well

and I'm bemused that this legislative gap hasn't been closed sooner. We know that the National Crime Agency and Border Force have been working on this issue since about 2017. At the moment they rely, as you suggested, on very outdated customs legislation, which makes it an offence to import indecent or obscene articles. But it doesn't make it an offence to manufacture, own or market, such materials. And therefore, in talking to police officers

and child protection experts. I know there's real frustration that when these doles are found in the possession of individuals, they can't be seized and unless there are other offences that are found, so sometimes when a doll is tracked

to an individual, if they are able to search that person's devices, they're often found to have child sexual abuse material in decent images on devices. And it can be, We know the ownership of dolls in a number of cases, both in the UK and in other countries, for instance, in Australia, where these dolls have been banned, have been indicative of wider offences.

There was a very disturbing case in Australia last year where a man who was found to be buying one of these dolls, they then searched his home. They found thousands of indecent images and very elaborate plans for him to then kidnap and hold host. And it was very, very disturbing. So we know that the ownership of these dolls, often by registered sex offenders, they've also been found in their possession, is indicative of wider and escalating dangerous behaviour. I might say, as an MP and as a mother, I think we have a responsibility to act. I mean, it must be difficult.

I'm just thinking logistically to track down who may own one. But do you have any idea off the scale or how many? No, because it's not an offence at the moment and they can't be seized and officers can't get a search warrant to look for these items because they're not illegal is very hard to quantify. But we know that when Border Force started its operation in 2019, I think it was, 2017 over the course of the next few years,

they went from seizing $34 to over $200 in 2024. Some of those numbers have come down now. So giving police greater powers and making this specific offence, I think we'll see that it is sadly a bigger issue than we've currently got evidence for. But either way, I mean, these things that sexualise children and encourage the most horrendous activity with dolls that are designed to feel and look like children and are often ordered, they're custom made sometimes

and ordered to meet somebody's particular interests and desires. They need to be banned and we need to crack down on them if we want to keep children safe. It's a massive safeguarding issue. Let me bring in, Dr. Alex Bailey. I mentioned the Lucy Faithful Foundation that your mission is to prevent child sexual abuse by interviewing with people at risk of causing harm. Can you elaborate on that, Alex, and welcome. Sure. Thank you for having me. Yes, so the Lucy Faithful Foundation, we are a child protection

charity and we are focused on the prevention of child sexual abuse. One of the projects that we run is our Stop It Now services, which are confidential and anonymous services, so help line, a secure messaging, online chat, where people can contact if they are concerned about their thoughts or feelings or behaviours towards children, and then they can get advice from our advisors as to how to manage that. So we want to ensure that children are, harmed. So we will work with people to help them ensure that they don't move forward and harm children if they're experiencing

those thoughts. Yeah, it's a very distressing topic, obviously, for people that are listening but this is work that you're doing. For people that have never offended, for example, but may find themselves having thoughts that they are concerned, that they might act on them. And I suppose that brings up then some of the discussion about these dolls, some asking would they actually stop people offending? What do we know, offending, I should say, with real children.

What do we know about that? Very little. So there is very little research out there in relation to these dolls. The research that is out there are small. It relies very heavily on sort of people's self-reaching report and at one point in time. So we don't know anything about, you know, it can't tell us about whether owning a doll would actually have an impact on somebody's risk in the long run. And actually coming back to what was being said earlier, one of the things that we do know is that things that normalize the sexualization of children and where people can, you know, engage in that fantasy, but more so in this scenario where it actually becomes physical when

we're talking about a doll in terms of acting out those fantasies, actually could strengthen those sexual thoughts about children. And for some people, then it could then increase that risk. And for that reason, you know, we need to be thinking about that. We need to be focusing on that group. We need to be thinking about what protects children best. Yeah. And I know this can be difficult for people to listen to. I will say if you're affected by what you're listening to this morning, you can find help and support on the BBC action line.

There are some sorts of online prevention and deterrence in place. Alex, I understand. If someone is searching for this sort of doll, will a warning appear? Tell me a little bit about that. Sorry, my internet cut out a little bit.

I can see that. I saw it froze for a second. please continue. So I guess you're asking about kind of our services and online warning messages. Yes, exactly, exactly. Yes, so there are, so one of the things that we do is we have a deterrence campaign that we run, and we also have our project intercept. And the focuses of those projects are to put warning messages out there. So disruption, deterrence messages online.

making it very clear to anybody who might be, say, searching for child sexual abuse material, that this material is illegal, that it's harmful, but actually this is something we can help them to stop. And would that come up with a purchase such as this? So the warning messages would likely come up with a search for a doll such as this. So quite often some of these warning messages, particularly on search engines, are related to certain search terms. So a term like child sex would result in warning messages. It would certainly result in our Stop It Now services being presented to somebody,

being very clear that if they put concerns about their thoughts of things towards children, to contact us to ensure that they can get help with that and not go on to harm any children. And people do get in touch, Alex? Yes, they do. absolutely so we we get it we have many many thousands of people get in touch with us every year in terms of their own concerns about themselves but we also get many contacts from people who are also concerned about somebody else and I think that's really important because if somebody is concerned about another adult's behavior maybe they're concerned about what somebody is

doing online their behavior towards children maybe they've they've they've fact a doll in their in their home and they don't know what to do with that. They can contact us and stop it now to get support as well. Let me turn back to you, Manera. You're bringing, as we mentioned, a private members bill to Parliament on the 4th of September. I imagine you've spoken with lots of your colleagues. What has to happen to get the law changed in the way that you want? So given the numbers in Parliament, it needs to have government support.

and I'm pleased to have government support and I'm working closely with the Home Office on this. I've also got cross-party support, so I've got Conservative as well as Labor and Liberal Democrat sponsors to my bill. So given the vagaries of parliamentary process, it may not actually get any debate time on the 4th of September,

but nonetheless, we hope that it will pass its first stage on the 4th of September to the next stage of consideration in the House of Commons and go through those stages with cross-party support. into the House of Lords, and I hope become legislation. Obviously, we can't guarantee this given parliamentary process, but nobody I've spoken to

in Parliament and outside of Parliament seems opposed to this, and everybody is just horrified that these things exist and are legal, and agree that this loophole needs to be closed. Mania Wilson, MP and Dr. Alex Bailey, thanks to both of you. Again, I will repeat,

if you've been affected by the conversation we've been having, you can find help and support on the BBC Action Line. A home office spokesperson did say, these dolls are vile, it's right they should be banned and removed from sale. We're already taking action to stop their distribution, helping protect children from predatory threats in the future. I want to go back to Dolly Parton for a moment. And lots of you getting in touch,

I have always sought her out to cheer me up, to make me laugh, and just to make me feel good about myself. self. Dolly always made you feel you were good enough. Our daughter was being treated for a brain tumour in 2022. And when she was in recovery, we watched Dolly's films and listened to her songs to make us feel better about things. All the love from Caroline in Derbyshire 844 if you'd like to get in touch. She was so witty and so warm, Dolly Parton, which has also been said of my next guest, actually. Who says, everything is poetry. It is the spoken word poet, Georgie Jones. Good morning. Good to have you with us. Now, for people who are not familiar with you yet, you take on the realities of womanhood, friendship, body image, love, self-doubt, and you've shot to fame on social media. You've been to the Edinburgh Festival Fringe.

Tomorrow you're going to Shambola Festival in North Hampshire. Lots of special guests there. Are you a fan of Dolly? Were you a Dolly part and for him? Oh, was I a fan of Dolly? Yes. Dolly said, don't get so busy trying to make a living that you forget to make a life. And I think about that all the time. Words of wisdom.

Honestly, yes. And, you know, I think she would probably agree as well with everything is poetry. But explain to our listeners what you mean about that. I think these days we are so kind of caught up in this quite quick click culture of impatience. We want next day delivery. We want it immediately.

We want it now. We don't want to wait for stuff. And I think in the moments that we do wait, poetry, is absolutely everywhere. It's in kind of a parking ticket even or the way the streetlights flicker on or a microwave gel phrasing. Do you know it's kind of everywhere.

It's all around us. So do you move slower through the world, Georgie? Oh, I'm pretty slow, all right. But I'm just thinking because I love your poetry. It's fantastic. People need to find you online if they haven't already and watch through and your love for women and for life and for taking things as a country.

comes through so viscerally, but I was like, do you not get impatient? I actually don't think I do. Is that annoying to say that? I think that I've got a lot of flaws, but I've got a lot of patience as well. I don't mind moving slowly and I don't mind waiting. So you do spoken word. You've a band behind you for some that I was watching. And it breaks through sometimes, oh, she's speaking. Oh, no, now she's performing. Okay. And it perhaps cuts through in a different way to traditional poetry. Why do you think, you're resonating with so many women? I don't know. I wonder if I'm just saying out loud what a lot of women think in their heads

but don't know that they can say for fear of what other people might think or getting it wrong or looking foolish. I don't mind looking a fool if it makes somebody else feel a little bit better in what they're going through. And I feel really strongly that we are all muddling through this life, trying to figure it out. And it's way harder if you do it by yourself. yourself, if you're brave enough to kind of crack a tiny chink in the armour and let the vulnerability spill out, you will feel infinitely better for it. You are going to perform your poem. I'm not impressed with efficiency for us. Just give us a line or two about what people should expect. What's it about? I wrote the poem in response to somebody who'd come to one of my gigs and waited until the very end and then said to me, I've built an app that can write a poem in 20 seconds. And I wish I'd been brave enough to say,

I don't think that's good use of your time, but thank you for letting me know. And instead I said, oh, brilliant. And got sucked into a big conversation about, you know, that. Was it AI that they were using? Oh, yes, yes, yes. And then I went home and seethed privately and wrote this poem in response to it.

Let us hear it. I'm not impressed by efficiency. That's the truth. And just because it's quick, it doesn't mean that it is masterly. And when it comes to poetry, I don't think speed has ever really been the goal. I think sometimes it takes ages to find the right words for that small piece of your soul. We are slowly mining language searching for a gem.

And besides, everything I love is a little bit lumpy in this life. The things I most adore are all so fabulously flawed. The green corduroy coat, for example, that patiently waits for winter in my own. whole, the one that used to keep my mum warm, and now does the same for me. It's got padding, peeking out of the cuffs and the pockets are clinging on for dear life or the accidental butt dial, left by my friends with the voicemail, left by accident, the one in which I can hear them chanting for Abba demanding one more song, or the dinner that's burnt at the edges, or the apology-type mid-cry, or the way my trousers hug my belly or texting, sorry I forgot to reply, I

really like. I love actually living in a way, in a place where nothing lines up quite right. I want more of it. I want all of it. The muddled, the messy, the bits AI might edit out. I am always going to opt for the higgledy-piggledy heartbeat. The world with its cardigan on backwards, covered in fingerprints, thumb-smudged and warm. I want an awkward pause. I will choose the unedited pulse of things. every single time, the beauty of the almost, the nearly there, the not quite, the things that remind me I am not sparkly or shiny or even really getting it right, but I am. We all are undoubtedly alive. How beautiful. And I just need to let people know that are listening, you just sat there and said it extemporaneously without a note in front of.

of you. How fantastic. I listened to that last night as well and was struck by so many of your examples will resonate. How do you write? How do you get your inspiration? I use chat GPT. No, I'm joking. I don't. No, I don't. No, I just think a tiny thing that was sparked something and sometimes they really flow out of you and it's brilliant and sometimes you do sit with it for days or weeks but it starts with an image usually for me Well the green corduroy coat

when we come back to Dolly Parton I mean coat of many colours that her mother made for her the coat of your mother that keeps you warm now that my mum is like will you please throw that away Not a chance hanging on by a thread But it's brilliant And it's hanging on waiting for winter

I thought that image was so beautiful You have also a poem in response to It's Not All Men, which we often talk about that, obviously, that phrase on this programme. Could you tell us, and I'm sorry to say briefly, but a little bit about that poem? I think not all men is the most unhelpful response to that conversation. We're talking about really horrific, really serious subjects, women getting attacked and assaulted and murdered.

And quite embarrassing, I think, to think that the worst part of that conversation is that a good man might get scooped up and included in a conversation about bad ones. You talk about Malteseers. I do. Can you give us a little idea off the box of Maltesers? There's an analogy that I've heard a lot of women use, which is that, no, it's not all men, but if somebody gave you a box of Maltesers and told you that one in ten of them wasn't a Malteseer but was a, a, a, a, you know, a, you know. a little bit of poop. Can we say poop? We can say poop.

I was going to say fecal matter. I didn't know what the rules were. Dipped in chocolate and put in the box. You'd be a little bit wary of them all. And so the poem kind of starts with that analogy and kind of sweeps into slightly more angry. 15 seconds. What about your show coming up?

Oh, it's brill. Oh, you've got to come. It's great. And if you can't make it to Shambola, you can find her online. and she will be on tour from March next year. So wonderful to have you in, Georgie Jones. Thank you for joining us.

Total pleasure. Right, Dolly, did something so special. She empowered women to empower themselves. Never thought of myself as a country music fan, but I loved her music. So many spoke of the experiences that affect women everywhere. I will miss her influence and music so much. Thanks for joining me today.

Anita's with you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Greg Jenna. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. And we are back for a 12th series. Everyone in that film is wearing their own pants. We're joined by comedians like Kyle Smith Bino and Desiree Burch.

Can't see how this would go wrong. We'll meet many medieval saints. Motivational speaker saint. With a like a sort of Madonna head mic on. We're doing a history of underwear. Plus there's loads more. You're dead to me. Listen on BBC Sounds.

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