Woman's Hour - Remembering Mary Quant, Hen parties, Architect Sumayya Vally, WH Power list change-maker Emma Booth

Episode Date: April 14, 2023

The fashion designer Dame Mary Quant, best known for popularising the mini skirt which helped define the swinging sixties has died at the age of 93. The Telegraph's fashion writer Melissa Twigg who knew Mary and the fashion Amber Butchart discussed her impact and legacy.Sumayya Vally has been described as one of the most exciting, innovative and fresh voices in architecture, she's featured on the TimesNext100 list, and was the youngest ever architect to design the iconic Serpentine Pavilion in Hyde Park. Now she is the woman behind the innaugral Islamic Arts Biennal in Saudi Arabia, which aims to bridge past, present and future of Islamic culture through a unique multi-sensorial experience. Sumayya joins Anita to talk about how her upbringing as an Indian muslim in South Africa has shaped her view on the world and the structures she creates.A new report highlights concerns about infants with non-accidental injuries being missed by clinicians in busy A&E departments. The Healthcare Safety Investigation Branch has examined serious case reports of infants being harmed and initially sent away without safeguarding teams being alerted. Their findings suggest factors such as lack of curiosity and lack of specific national guidance for Emergency Departments could be at play.Emma Booth is on the Woman's Hour Power List, this year focussed on women in sport. Emma impressed the judges as she took a public stand against major golf brand TaylorMade and their lack of female imagery and golf products for women. Emma joins Anita to discuss speaking out against such a well-known company and how it is to be a woman in golf. As we head into peak hen do season, Anita will be discussing the rise of the "healthy hen do" with Hannah Dean who set up her own hen party company as a direct result of her divorce, and writer Ellie Steafal who went on six hen parties last year alone.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hen party season is upon us and today we're going to be discussing the evolution of the hen party. Women are increasingly wanting something different to the classic, getting totally trollied in Blackpool. Not everyone, but some. Hen parties are now becoming about wholesome activities and adventure, apparently. Hiking, yoga, spa days, even puppy parties. But what's your experience? Did you have one? What did you do? Maybe you don't remember. And how does your hen party compare to hen parties you've subsequently been invited to? They're now more likely to be intergenerational affairs.

So are you a mum, auntie or gran who was at a hen party? How was it? Who was the worst behaved? Here's looking at you, Grandma. Or was it an altogether more sober affair? Get in touch with me in the usual ways. You can text me, 84844. You can email me through the website or you can WhatsApp me or even leave me a voice note.

It's 03700 100 444 also this morning we'll be remembering mary quant paraphrasing a quote i read earlier if the beatles wrote the soundtrack to the 60s then mary quant designed the look mini skirts opaque tights the freedom to run for a bus and dance all night but what was the item of clothing that defined your youth? Was it the miniskirt? Was it dungarees, Doc Martens, shoulder pads, baggy trousers, the baby doll dress, hot pants, leather trousers, PVC? Let's relive the outfits we thought made us cooler than cool and defined who we were or maybe who we just wanted to be. Plus a couple of women forging their own path on the programme this morning.

South African architect Samea Valli and Emma Booth, a changemaker in the world of golf and Women's Hour powerlister. Cannot wait to speak to them. And of course, the programme will be peppered with your memories of those outfits that defined your youth. 84844 is the number to text. But first, the fashion designer Dame Mary Quant, who is best known for popularising the miniskirt,

which helped define the swinging 60s, has died this week at the age of 93. She's credited not only for the miniskirt, but also for freeing the female leg and her huge influence of young girls and women in the late 50s and 60s. Here she is telling Jenny Murray back in 2012 on this very programme what inspired the look. I was doing pompous ballet classes which

little girls were always sent to and then through a door I saw this other tap dancing class going on and there was a girl wearing black stockings or black tights and a very short pleated skirt of about 10 inches and tap dancing shoes a sort of patent leather with a sort of bow on top. And it was the white socks, of course, made it. And I knew forever, that's it. So when you started making clothes for yourself, what sort of things were you making? Well, short skirts so you could move and dance and run and catch a bus and things like that.

But dance, yes. How much did you set out to shock? I didn't set out to shock. I wanted to be able to move and run, go to work, go out in the evening to somewhere where I could dance half the night away, you know. And that tap dancer was always an image in my head. Now, one of the things that we had to have

as a result of the shortness of the skirts that you gave us was tights, not stockings and suspenders. What influence did you personally have on the development of tights? Well, I had to, didn't I? Because people thought you couldn't wear skirts that short otherwise. So the only way I could get tights at all, because they just didn't exist, you know, I went to theatrical makers and manufacturers

and bought them there and bought them in the colours of the dresses that I was designing or persuaded them to make them in those colours. And so it elongated the leg and the skirt, so it went together. How wonderful to hear that clip. Just so that you all know in honour of Mary Quant I'm wearing my opaque tights and mini skirt today. Well joining me now is Amber Butchart the fashion historian and Melissa Twigg feature and fashion writer for The Telegraph. Welcome to both of you. Melissa I'm going to come to you first because your mum Camilla worked for Mary Quant in the 90s and the noughties and you'd see Mary after school and on the weekends. So what are your memories of her?

I have so many memories of her and I just feel so lucky. I'm not quite sure I appreciated it enough at the time, but I used to traipse down to their studio in Brompton Cross sometimes after school and Mary would be there. At that point, she'd swap miniskirts for makeup and she was designing these tangerine orange, neon pink crayons and she was as bold then in her 70s as I think she was in her 20s. You said that she was surprisingly shy. She was surprisingly shy. It was a slight dichotomy in the sense that she was very shy with new people. She didn't particularly want to chat.

I always remember she'd phone our house on weekends and she'd want to speak to my mother. And my brother or I answered the phone, she'd quickly say, please put me through to your mother. But if it was my father, she'd just hang up straight away. She was too shy to talk to him. But yet there was such a strong character underneath, which there had to be for someone who's revolutionized the way fashion works. How has she influenced you and your style, do you think? I mean, you were lucky enough to actually be in the presence of greatness. So did she? I know. I mean, as a 15-year-old, who usually gets that chance? I think what she always believed was that fashion should be fun

and fearless and bold. She was never really about finding clothes that minimize or elongate bodies or about pleasing men, for example, or about sticking to rules or even trends. She just wanted women to be free, which was something she felt had been denied to them. And I think what I really took away from that, because obviously this was the 90s, so we did have a lot more freedom, but she always wanted it to be about self-expression and just about having a great time and saying something about who you are. And I do think that carried on with me through the years to approach fashion as something really fun and just, you know, something that gave you a chance to tell the world who you were. Yeah. And so empowering as well.

And I love how in that clip she said to be able to dance at least three times, fully on board with that. I'm going to bring Amber in here. Amber, tell us how important, just put her into context, just how important was Mary Quant? Mary Quant, we still, when we think of London in the 1960s, she's one of the absolute key figures that we still think of. And just to put it into a bit of historical context, her first boutique, Bazaar, actually opened in 1955.

And so to think about this, wartime rationing of clothing had only ended in 1949. And the utility scheme, this kind of government sanctioned wartime clothing scheme had only ended in 1952. So the fact that she then opens, you know, Bazaar on the King's Road in 1955 is quite remarkable. And it's also quite a bit earlier than people tend to remember, I think. We have in 1966, Time magazine publishes this issue which talks about London as the swinging city. We get this notion of swinging London. By that point, Mary Quant was an international brand, an international label. Her boutique had been open for over a decade.

So really, that's kind of how important she was. She was also fundamental in terms of people starting to think about London as a fashion center for women's wear as well. For centuries, when people think about women's fashion, we always think of Paris. Paris is the center of fashion. London is associated with menswear, with Savile Row, with tailoring. And Mary Quant was one of that generation of designers that helped to kind of turn the focus onto London for women's wear as well. Let's talk about the miniskirt, because when we think about Mary Quant, we've said it a few times, the miniskirt, the sexual revolution of the 60s. Did she invent it?

There's a long-running debate over who invented the miniskirt. And I think sort of thinking about who invented it kind of is losing the point. The fact is Mary Quant, Andre Correge in Paris, other London designers like John Bates were all creating shorter and shorter skirts as the 60s kind of go on and into the middle of the decade. The fact is Mary Quant always talked about designing for the girl on the street. She said she was creating things for herself to wear, for herself to dance in, like we heard in that wonderful clip, and for other girls that became known as the kind of Chelsea set at that time to feel comfortable in and to move in and to dance in. So this is something that is very clearly representative of a wider cultural shift. Rather than just one person inventing something,

what we're seeing here is a kind of gradual shift in the way that women are allowed to dress and that women are allowed to express themselves through clothing. And as we heard in the clip there, it wasn't just the clothes, she was also known for freeing the leg and a huge change, something we take for granted, you know, opaque tights. But she brought them to women and to the mass market, didn't she? Totally, yes. And that's something that has had a huge impact on my own personal style as well. I don't think I would be the person I am without coloured tights. She partnered with the Nylon Hosiery Company, which had been set up in 1954 by the Currie family who'd recently emigrated from India. And together they kind of developed these various

techniques for creating tights when most women at this time are wearing stockings, suspenders or garters, things that you simply couldn't wear as hemlines are rising. And so they decided to start creating these tights and matching them to colours that Mary Quant was using in her clothing as well. These colours that we really still think of when we think of the 60s, these more unusual colours, maybe kind of mustard, yellow, purples, things like this, that just hadn't been seen in hosiery before. So it's, you know, become an absolute kind of icon of the 1960s, the idea of coloured tights. Yeah. And, you know, now we take it for granted and it really became the look of, like you say, the swimming 60s. But when the dresses and the look and what she was

creating for women first came about did she shock the establishment certainly I think older generations were quite shocked certain members of older generations and there was definitely an idea of this being a new generation wanting to dress differently from how, you know, older generations, from how your parents had dressed in the past. I think that's something that's, we see that in generations all the time, wanting to make a break with what has gone before. So that's certainly something we see, that element of shock, like we just heard in that clip, she didn't necessarily set out to shock. This is a kind of wider cultural movement, but absolutely some people are seeing this as shocking. We also start to see a bit of a backlash a bit later in the decade as well. As with any kind of fashion item that's seen as controversial, we see lots of different,

you know, ideas and opinions about what it means, especially when it's related to women's bodies, which are obviously heavily politicized all the time. What was the backlash? Well, we start to see some members of, you know, certain factions of like the women's liberation movement seeing this as objectifying rather than as freeing, as Mary Quant talked about. I mean, that's a debate that could really go on forever and sort of depends on your own kind of personal stance on it. But I think it's important to to note that

women's bodies whether they are too covered or too undressed are consistently politicized. Absolutely um and then the haircut we've got to talk about the haircut because I'm looking at your fabulous bob amber and and your perfect fringe um how important was that in defining her look? So important. So her haircut was the five point by Vidal Sassoon, who was a friend of hers and was another absolutely key figure in defining that look of the 1960s and what we think of as specifically London style at that time. What's fantastic about, you know, the work they did together

and Mary Quant very much was the sort of face of her own look and her own brand. She wore the clothes. She had the hairstyle. And it fits in also with all of these wider art movements that we're seeing at the time with pop art of part as well. It's very geometric, the Vidal Sassoon cut, especially the five point that she has. It's quite a complicated cut to do and really shows Vidal Sassoon's, you know, talent as well. And this great kind of partnership they made in terms of aesthetically defining the decade. Lots of our listeners get in touch with memories of the outfits and the looks

that defined their youth. Keith says, defining fashion for me was the parker and the adidas sports bag this is going to date and age everybody isn't it um ali says oxford bags defined my teenage years worn in the early and mid 70s very wide leg trousers with extra high waistbands often over platform shoes with little skinny mini tops showing a daring slice of midriff oh those were the days um 84844 is the number to text. Helen says, I remember making a very short baby doll dress

out of a beautiful piece of dark green satin and ribbon along with three pairs of false eyelashes. Love this. I wore it to the Bristol Locarno to see Jimi Hendrix in 1967. In the bar there, Jimi stopped and looked at me. Then he walked on.

That is a brilliant memory, particularly like the three sets of eyelashes. I don't know how you kept your eyes open. Melissa, what did Mary make of your clothes when you were a teenager? Mary always made it quite clear when she liked something or didn't. And I definitely have a few moments that 20 years later, I feel a sense of pure horror when I remember what I wore sometimes. One particular time time I went

into the studio in a hideous blue tracksuit with a pair of very muddy trainers and I was eating an apple which was getting cut and caught in my braces and I remember she gave me the most withering stare of all time she wasn't happy but then if you wore something she liked you she made you feel amazing like the most beautiful woman. Oh, the pressure. Yeah. The pressure of having to think about what to wear. Terrible pressure. I'm going to ask you both, how do you think she should be remembered best?

Melissa. Sorry. I think she should be remembered as someone who made women fall back in love with fashion and sort of allowed them to really tell the world who they were through what their clothes were that she was a rebel but she was also relatable and she she just made everything such fun and I think that she made she was the first person who made the British fashion industry really what it is which is quite egalitarian and for everyone it's the sort of counterpoint to these

big Parisian couture houses and made it what it is today a rebel and relatable I like that how about you Amber? I think she deserves to be remembered as a brilliant entrepreneur a brilliant businesswoman and an absolutely crucial creative that defined a really kind of flourishing, you know, culturally, creatively flourishing period in British history. Wonderful. Melissa and Amber, thank you so much for speaking to me and remembering the late, great Mary Quant. Keep your thoughts coming in about the outfits that defined you. Radio 4 defining outfits. I was a teenager in the 70s. It was cheesecloth wraparound skirts and halternecks tops. Oh, and Laura Ashley, of course.

And that's from Liz in Brighton. And Liz Goddard says, my white leather boots with cut out bits near the top. I loved them and they made all my short dresses look so cool. Very nice. Now, a new report highlights concerns

about infants and non-accidental injuries being missed by clinicians in busy A&E departments. The Healthcare Safety Investigation Branch has examined serious case reports of infants who've been harmed that were initially sent away without safeguarding teams being alerted. Their findings suggest a lack of curiosity and lack of specific national guidance for emergency departments could be factors. Well, I'm joined by Dr Rosie Bennyworth, Chief Investigator at the Healthcare Safety Investigation Branch, which is dedicated to improving patient safety. Morning, Rosie. Why did you first of all decide to look at this area in particular? Well, this is a very significant area. We know that, say, for example, in 2018, we know that over 20,000 children attended emergency departments related to violence injuries. And in the under 10s, there were almost 2,000 children who presented to emergency departments with signs of violence.

And we know also that there's over 4,000 children a year with child protection plans and subject to abuse. But we know that there's a bigger problem and it's absolutely vital that clinicians and people working in A&E and all health sectors are able to identify where there has been signs of non-accidental injury and be able to escalate those and raise those concerns very quickly. So what did you look at in particular? So we explored through the investigation the issues that influenced the diagnosis of non-accidental injuries in infants and we particularly looked at children under a year because they're at high risk of abuse. And we looked at people

who were attending emergency departments. And the aim was very much to see how we could support clinicians in considering how to make this diagnosis. So we looked at 10 reports written by NHS trusts across the country where there hadn't been the correct diagnosis of an accidental injury. And we worked with national stakeholders, national agencies, and we also visited acute trusts and spoke to medical and nursing staff in those trusts. Can we hear some of those cases? Yes, certainly. And the cases are very distressing. So, for example, we heard a case of Finn.

This isn't the baby's real name, but Finn was four weeks old. He was brought to the emergency department by his mum and dad, and he had a bruise on his face. And when he was examined, he was found to have a two centimetre lump on the side of his face. And the parents said that Finn had been dropped when he'd been winded and had landed on the father's shoulder blade, which had caused this lump. The parents were well dressed and were having appropriate interaction with the child. And also the doctor noted that the baby had been brought into the emergency department promptly. And often we worry if there's a delay in people getting the help that they need.

They'd also noticed there was no social services involvement. The doctor felt that that explanation was acceptable. But interestingly, when we looked at the investigation, we found that the nurse had been given a slightly different story and those stories hadn't been matched up. Four days later, very sadly, Finn returned to the emergency department with the parents and had blood coming from his nose and mouth. And the parents said they'd gone to check on him and found this blood on the blanket that had been covering his face. At that point, thankfully, the safeguarding team were contacted and further tests and scans were undertaken. And very sadly, that revealed that there was multiple fractures and other injuries.

So the police and social services were contacted and Finn was moved into foster care. That is a very distressing story. You're right. I mean, what could have been done differently then? So we think there's several things that could be done differently. So firstly, it's really important that all clinicians working and everyone working in health and care settings have their antennae kind of alert to the possibility of non-accidental injury. And we call that professional curiosity, not always taking the parents' account of what's happened at face value, really thinking about the potential risk factors and really understanding.

And we know that some some people are more at risk of abuse. So if there's domestic violence, if there's mental health problems in the parents, if there's substance misuse, those type of things can increase the risk. We also think that there could be more in terms of safeguarding support and more availability of that safeguarding support and timely information and timely support to the teams working in A&E because we do recognise that people working in A&E are under huge time pressures. It's a very difficult job and they're working under extreme pressures in the work they do. We also think there needs to be consistent sharing of information between professionals. And we also want to look at those barriers and understand those in terms of why people don't escalate concerns. And we've explored that in our report to try and reduce the risk of

those concerns being missed. What is the protocol at the moment if a doctor is suspecting abuse? What would they do? So there is safeguarding teams within the hospital and the protocol would be to alert the safeguarding teams or alert the social worker that's supporting the unit or alert the children's team. We did find some barriers in terms of that happening. So we found that sometimes those people were only available between nine and five and often the infants were coming in later in the day or later at night or different times when it's not nine to five in the weekdays. We also found that sometimes people asked for help but didn't get responses back for several hours. And one of our observations with this report is actually it would be helpful for

there to be a set time limit to get that advice back so that people get timely advice in a quick way so they can help that decision making. And how much of this did you recognise whilst you were doing the report because you've been a GP and you've worked in A&E? Is this something that you've dealt with yourself? It is something I've dealt with myself and it's a really distressing situation. I think there are differences between primary care and A&E. It's a very difficult situation, whichever setting you're involved in. Sometimes as a GP, you have a lot more information and you often know the family, which is more helpful. And you sometimes know the context in which the family is working, living in and the risk factors that might be there but it's very

distressing and it's it's very time consuming when you're seeing patients every 10 minutes or you're in an A&E where you have you have lots of patients waiting and we hear that from clinicians in this investigation that actually sometimes it can take several hours to sort out a child who you're concerned about. And sometimes it's not always apparent on the first time you see someone. And that's why it's really important that we all think about non-accidental injury and think about the potential risk factors for that much earlier on. I think the other thing is actually sometimes we don't know what social services know.

So sometimes social services have some information that the GP or the A&E clinician isn't aware of. And I think we're very keen to get much better sharing of that information in a consistent way. And what about the possibility of someone being accused of mistreating a child when they haven't? Well, that's a risk and that's why it is really complex because often you have relationships if you're in primary care

or you're trying to manage kind of the parents and you're trained to actually communicate in a way that is supportive and working with the parents when you're trained to actually communicate in a way that is supportive and working with the parents when you're looking after children. So it is very difficult. And that's why actually people need that safeguarding advice. They need to get specialist input. And this is about raising concerns.

Some of those concerns may not be the case. Some people may not, there may not be the case. Some people may not. There may not be any non-accidental injury. But until we raise those concerns, actually, unless all of those concerns are raised, we're going to miss some people. And that's what we're shown in our report. Dr. Rosie Beneweth, thank you for speaking to me about this subject this morning. Thank you. We asked for a statement from nhs england but we've not heard back but in a previous statement to the national press they've said an nhs spokesperson said it's a vital staff have the training and support they need to recognize and

handle these incredibly difficult cases and share information effectively in the best interests of the child all safeguarding training received by emergency care staff aligns with standards set by the Royal Colleges. 84844 is the number to text. So many of you sharing stories of your outfits that defined your youth. An email from Rachel said, Mary Quant's biggest contribution was giving us teens a style different from our mothers. The war was their generation. Her free styles represented ours. My favourite is knee-high Some great images. In 1967 and 21 years old, black PVC Macintosh with large zip, big PVC red hat, red plastic shoes, pushing my six-month-old baby through the estate where I lived. And from one of the houses which had a window open came the comment look at this woman in her red hat never wore it again maybe it was the

biggest compliment maybe they absolutely loved it get the red hat out that's what I say now this year the women's hour powerless focused on women in sports last month we revealed our list of 30 remarkable women making an impact across the board covering a variety of sports and across all levels of influence we split the finalists into into categories we had athletes leaders amplifiers grassroots and today i'm very excited to be speaking to a woman from our change maker category these are women disrupting the status quo and taking up space in places previously seen as male only. One someone who certainly embodies that is Emma Booth.

Emma set up Winchester Golf Academy in 2015 with her husband and a few years later did something which really caught our judges' attention. Whilst attending an event for the golf brand TaylorMade, Emma noticed no women featured in their marketing material. So she called them out and they listened well i'm gonna let emma tell you the rest because it is a great story welcome to woman's hour emma hi hi nisa you're right i'm great congratulations first of all you're in the audience for our big reveal program how did it feel to be recognized amongst so many other remarkable women oh it was phenomenal an absolute honor um i was just so delighted to be even nominated and then considered them to be a part of it was it was such an incredible atmosphere that day and

it's been just such a positive thing um for my facility as well excellent i'm gonna get you to tell the story in just a moment. But before we do, take me back to where your interest in golf first started. Well, it was actually my father that got me into golf. He was a very keen golfer and he was in the military. And so we always had access to these fantastic playing fields. So wherever we were posted, we were able to sort of hit balls. But he started off, I used to go and play with the dog sort of thing at age three or four. And he had a little cut down club for me. And I was just able to hit the ball.

That was my thing. My sister could read at three. I could hit and catch a ball. So we're all different. How good are you? What's your handicap? I say that like I know what I'm talking about. Well, the lowest I got down to was um two on the old handicap system and then when you turn pro you're

declared off scratch um i don't know what i sadly don't get to play as much these days because i've got three children three girls myself so um it comes you know it's not something i get to do as much so i don't know what i'd probably play off now. Yes, your three daughters who you brought up as well as setting up the business that you did with your husband. You're remarkable. I love it. It's a great story. But let's talk about it. So you'd gone along to this conference for the golf brand TaylorMade. Tell us what happened. So I was actually just starting to come back from maternity leave. And my husband said, how about you go to the launch um it's kind of like a massive launch it was at Mercedes-Benz World so it was a big auditorium so there was

probably about well over 100 people there there was but very few women in the audience as well I was uh myself and one of my female um sort of golf assistants that works for us came along as well so it's probably only about three or four women in the room really um and he said why don't you go you know find out about the new product sort of dip your toe back into work type thing so um lack of sleep my second didn't wasn't sleeping that great as always and um I went along and I'm watching and waiting and there's all these fabulous golfers you know flames and um coming out very masculine presentation like a viagra advert basically that's what it felt like with all these male golfers smashing golf balls doing everything and I just waiting for the women's product and it wasn't there really it was a bit of a box ticking

exercise to say oh available in women is just such a small sort of tagline there so when it wrapped around I thought in the break I said to my female sister I said I might you know I might ask I might ask where's the women she was like no don't say anything don't say anything but I think you do as a woman you just get to a certain age where you're like you know what I am gonna say say it so maybe it's the lack of sleep that drove me on so um when it was question time I think I was the second question just to say you know where are the women where I'm not even considered I'm not even part of your product line this is my life I've dedicated my life to it and I'm not there I'm not featured and I was just very disappointed by that so then um no one really

speaks to me too much after but then my husband when I got home he said oh how'd it go today and I said well you know I might have uh a bit of a stir but that's basically what happened that day. So you got no reaction in the room when you spoke out? It was a bit a bit of a goldfish moment I think for them because they weren't necessarily expecting that question because they do put on it's they put on such a fantastic marketing show but they had really overseen that you know which was obviously for me massive you know and a massive oversight so what happened next well I did actually I've not got any real massive interest in in social media or a big following or chase that type of thing but I did tweet about it to say I was disappointed that

um TaylorMade hadn't thought of of women at all in their product and then from there the the MD of Europe did come out to Winchester to see me and it's a positive story really because they listened and they said you know what you're right we're going to look into this um the CEO from America came out to see me as well to say they've started sponsoring women golfers because they didn't sponsor any female tour players at that point so they started um sponsoring charlie hull who's an english golfer and he said and then they set up the women's ambassador board which is um made up of 13 female golfers in the industry in some capacity and we get together with tailor-made and it's big for them now. They couldn't have taken it and made it into a more positive thing. Honestly, they've just done, it's been phenomenal to work with them.

It's an incredible, well, it's great that they listened, took it on board, set this up. But it took you standing up and having the courage to do that in the first place. Before I move on with the story, I just want to pick up on that because there might be people listening who have been in similar situations where they've thought, I'm going to say something, I'm going to say something, but you don't. Yes. What gave you the courage? And I know you've said just, you know, lack of sleep, but what was it?

I mean, and how were you feeling? Just how much adrenaline was pumping through you or did you feel very calm in that moment and just knew I have to do this definitely I mean I'm I've been raised by um a very strong woman my mum and I've got two sisters who are very vocal you know for um just promoting women and um I think that you know there's definitely a lot of adrenaline it is a do I don't I and the moment slips past so I think a lot of it actually was do I think being on maternity leave you just feel so you can feel quite isolated and lonely and just invisible you know that your whole time is so 24 7 so then I'm back in the world of work my own thing and then just to not be seen I think that was a big contributing factor in me just going good on you and they set up the women's advisory board and yesterday you had a meeting what did

you discuss yes so we are looking at the new product line we launched a club a new club so we all collaborated on it we really sort of got into what color schemes we think work well for marketing for women the technology how we can get that across to women, to encourage women to go for custom fitting with golf, to get their clubs fitted for them. We talked about lots of those type of things and just how the designs work. And it's really exciting to actually make, have an influence on the products that they are going to launch for women. Absolutely. And also, I mean, mean golf is your world i said in the intro that you set up the winchester golf academy with your husband in 2015 what did you want to achieve with that so it's a family it's two families it's a collaboration of myself and my husband and the brown family and we just wanted to set up something

that was completely different very inclusive very accessible golf still has you know this um a bit of an accessibility problem where you think of lock gates and um private members only we wanted to create a facility that is for absolutely everybody everyone's welcome wear what you like just come and have fun what is golf to you do you just want to come and whack a few golf balls or do you want to get into golf and we help you do that basically i've yet to give it a go you know i might just come and see you give it a go and you said you were raised by your amazing mum you've got powerful sisters that you know encourage you to have a voice and now you've got three daughters of your own how likely are they going to be to pick up a golf club or have they already got mini

golf clubs um they they have we're not pushing it too much. I'm just hoping my seven-year-old is going to take a bit more of an interest. They've all got good coordination, so that's always a good start. But we're doing lots of other sports. So they do jujitsu and just, I want them to try everything.

And then hopefully by the age of 13, 14, they'll have something that they can dedicate themselves to a little bit more but obviously it'll be fantastic for us if it was goal and being recognized on the power list has it changed anything for you do you think it will make an impact i just ask people no direct eye contact and not to ask me direct questions i'm just i am a celebrity now so um yeah i try only room temperature water I don't want anything you know um love it not not really um I just I am a behind the scenes person um I I so it's it's actually it's just been so nice to talk to people because it's it's so out there it's a big deal you

know to be on that list it's just such a fantastic thing so lots of people asking questions fantastic promotion for the facility and the work that I do with the women's golf alongside female you know we've got lots of women that work for us as well that really help boost that so just that boost to raise the that golf's in the list yeah it's a boost for women's golf that's that's that's fantastic for me. Well, you deserve to be there. More power to you. Thank you so much for speaking to me this morning,

Emma. And you can listen back to the reveal of the Woman's Hour Power List live from the radio theatre by looking for the episode for last Tuesday on BBC Sounds or to watch the reveal, go to the Woman's Hour website where you can also find out who else made up our top 30. Lots of you getting in touch about the clothes. I remember going to visit my grandmother wearing a miniskirt and she called me a disgrace to humanity, says Linda Gray. Justin's been in touch to say sorry to crash Woman's Hour being a chap. Justin, you are welcome. But my style in the mid 80s was new romantic ruffled shirt, my father's 1950s Spanish suede jacket, jodhpurs and purple suede knee high boots, hair back combed all Steve Strange and a touch of mascara a la Adamant.

Got thumped by a middle aged lady at Wimbledon station for being a deviant. Happy days, says Justin. Happy memory. Talking about amazing looking people. Someone who's fabulous just walked into the studio. Let me introduce my next guest. She's considered one of the world's rising stars in the typically white male dominated field of architecture. to design the iconic Serpentine Pavilion in London in 2020. She founded and directs the experimental architecture and research firm Counterspace and has been named on the Time 100 Next List as someone who will shape the future of architectural practice.

Sameah has now curated a major international event, the Islamic Arts Biennale in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, which is open until the end of this month and aims to be the most significant showcase of contemporary and historic work of Islamic art from across the globe. And she joins me now. Very impressive CV already, Sumeya,

but I want to start by talking about your own childhood and how that shaped your experience and led you to where you are today because you grew up in under apartheid South Africa. Thank you so much for having me here Anita it's so so lovely to be on the show I'm such a fan of yours and it's such an honor really to be here. Thank you well no it's great it's wonderful to have you here. Oh thank you so yes I grew up in South Africa and I was born five or so days after Nelson Mandela was released from prison. So I really grew up at the fall of apartheid. I was four years old when South Africa became a democracy.

But of course, we still struggled and suffered with apartheid and the legacy of apartheid being rife in South Africa. So although apartheid was coming to an end, I still grew up with the legacies of segregation that still actually play out in South Africa right now, as we know it. And I think economic segregation and socioeconomic injustices are so deep that they still affect our country today, even though they're now completely subconscious and subliminal for the most part. And many people have moved up into becoming middle class and upper middle class people of color. But for the most part, 90 percent of our country still suffers from the legacies of apartheid. It is absolutely so ingrained and so resilient. So explain where you were in that,

because I think for the audience to understand as a part of the Muslim community in an Indian only area, explain what the different areas were that you grew up around. Yes, so in South Africa, during apartheid, people were restricted in where they could live. The Group Areas Act meant that people could only live in areas that were designated for their race group. And what that looked like on a spatial and planning level, here speaking as an architect, people who were black, for example, lived near the most toxic buffer zones. So black people were forced to live next to areas that were next to radioactive mine waste dumps, for example, or in Cape Town next to sewage plants. And people who are of Indian heritage, like myself, often lived next to industrial

buffer zones, next to factory plants, and so on. And, of course, I grew up, as I said, at the end of apartheid, but communities still, for the most part, stayed where they were born and raised and where they held community. So I did grow up in a previously apartheid township called Lodium in South Africa. I'm very, very proud of my community and of my community upbringing as well. I grew up with a strong sense of what it means to live and be in a community. And it was a multi-religious community. Even though I grew up in and around Muslim rituals and Muslim life, many of our neighbors were Hindu and Christian, and we had a lot of solidarity as well, very different to the Indian politics that we see today. And I think also because everybody was so much against apartheid and so many people in our community were so active against it, we really found solidarity in each other.

So how did that upbringing inform the designs that you eventually went on to create as an architect? So a big part of my life was also spent in Johannesburg. My mother is from Johannesburg and my grandfather has many stores in inner city Johannesburg. He was a textile merchant. And I spent a lot of my childhood walking in the inner city of Johannesburg and really seeing the city come to life with the rituals and the lives of people, you know, seeing how people found ways to make life and livelihood to express themselves and their rituals, despite being so excluded from the built fabric and so excluded from the city, it really somehow does host people and people really have found ways to make the city home.

And I think that coupled with the fact that I had such a strong community upbringing, I never noticed it in the beginning. I think these things are completely intuitive. But I do believe that they have contributed to the way that I see my architectural practice. And my practice was founded by and through a love for Johannesburg. I really felt that there's so much that's interesting, there's so much that's rich, there's so much conceptual food in all of its diversity

that's waiting to be translated into design and architectural form. But what I felt when I studied architecture and when I looked around at the profession was that all this exciting richness was not being translated into form. We really had a canon and a profession that was inherited from elsewhere, largely from here, because of colonization and apartheid. And we didn't have any architecture that was truly resonant with the phenomenon that we were seeing or the phenomena that we were seeing in the city around us. And Counterspace was started with the intent to translate these phenomena, these ways of being

in people's lives into design and architectural form. Architecture is so abstract. It sets up everything in our lives. And we really take it for granted because it's all around us. But even the way that we're sitting now has been designed by someone. Yeah. And, you know, it sets up all kinds of hierarchies. Also, as a South African, I think I understood that architecture affirms our place in the world. It tells us who we are and it affirms our sense of belonging. So how did you go about establishing yourself? Because you have done so well. We are going to talk about the Serpentine Pavilion in a minute.

But establishing yourself in a typically male-dominated industry? Well, I don't know. I think in the beginning, I just went for it. I didn't think too much or think too hard. I knew that I had this desire to translate what I was interested in into design and architectural form. And I didn't think much about it at the time. I think for a long time, my work and what I was doing was like speaking into a vacuum, especially because architecture and design is so abstract. But I just, you know, I think I had... How frustrating though, speaking into a vacuum. Yeah, absolutely. I think it still

sometimes feels like that, to be honest. But I think I just so much believed that there is so much to give and is there is so much to learn from our cultures from our traditions and from who we are that we we absolutely have to take this opportunity on and translate it into form. I mean from speaking into a vacuum I'm sure it does still feel frustrating but then to being get in the honour of designing the Serpentine Pavilion in 2020. Yeah I think that was really the beginning of people taking notice of this approach and of this kind of work and I feel absolutely lucky to have had this opportunity to design the Serpentine Pavilion in the heart of London. I think I had to think for a long time what it meant for someone like me from my background to be creating this pavilion and to be working on a project in London if my work is so much about translating Johannesburg. And so I started to

think what would a pavilion look like for London? How was I going to translate London to London? So what elements of London did you take? Yes, so I started to look at waves of migrations in London. And I looked at places that became important for people when they first moved to London, and in how they started to construct home and construct belonging in the city. So I looked at some of the first mosques, African churches, synagogues, but then also marketplaces where someone would be able to find traditional ingredients that were important for recipes, or a cinema where someone could hear something in their mother tongue, some of the

first venues to play black music in London, or the first radical publishing houses. And I worked with what I thought of as the gestures of generosity in these places, how they allowed people to come together. And I translated these into the forms in the pavilion. But then most importantly, as much as it was about folding all of these places into the pavilion, it was really a love letter to the archive, especially for the architectural profession for me to recognize these places. It was also about folding the pavilion back out into London. So I worked on placing fragments of the pavilion in some of London's neighborhoods in community institutions that became part of the project through my research. And so there were four fragments placed in different neighborhoods in London, where I now have an ongoing relationship with these places.

We recently worked on a continuation of the project through a fragment that was placed in the Notting Hill Carnival that just passed. Fantastic. And we also launched a radio station in Barking and Dagenham that ties into the Serpentine's ongoing civic and education program. Amazing. Samaya, and now you're Encounter Space. You're based here? Yes, partly here, yes. Wonderful. And you are such an incredible role model. And I look forward to seeing what you do next. Thank you so much for coming in to speak to me. So interesting. Thank you so much.

Now, lots of you getting in touch about hen do's and we'll come to some of your experiences of hen do's because it is hen do season. When we think of hen do's, the images that often come to mind are donning the sashes, getting out the penis straws, whistles and hitting the dance floor cocktail in hand. Or are they?

April, May and June are very much hen party season, but they're not necessarily all about getting very drunk anymore. Apparently healthy hen parties and activities like dance classes, boot camps are all the rage now. Well, I'm joined by Hannah Dean, whose divorce inadvertently led to the creation of her hen party company, henqueens.co.uk, and Eleanor, or Ella, Ellie, Ellie, Ellie Ellie Ellie Steffel who who's a feature

writer for the Telegraph and is a bit of a hen party expert she went on six last year alone and has already been on two this year I'm tired just thinking about it and has organized three herself um Hannah I'm going to come to you first tell us how your divorce led to Hen Queens welcome to Woman's Hour both of you thank you so much for letting me be here. It's been great to be part of this. So 2015, I went through a very painful, messy separation with my ex-husband. And I basically was a music teacher. That was my background.

And I needed to find a way to keep my home. My sister did say to me, you know, have you thought about renting out your house? So what I did with my two young girls is that we would live in the house in the week and then on the weekends, rent out the house. The concept of that, you know know is very stressful and was different but I decided to take the bold move to do that and what led to me to hen queens is that I had all hen parties that booked my house and um and it the journey began from there really and what was really lovely about that journey was that I had happy people in my home. Well, and also they crucially didn't trash your home because these are healthier hen do's. So what are they coming to? What do they do? What are they doing in your house?

So when you think about hen parties, you think like you said earlier, like penis draws, you think of male strippers, etc. But with the hen parties that came to my house, they're very much into the sports yoga brunch is huge yoga brunch yoga classes yeah but the hen parties absolutely love them so it was it's absolute um lovely to see that actually women are now looking for uh more of a different experience for their parties i'm going to bring ellie in here because she is the hen party aficionado obviously a very popular woman ellie um does the healthy hen do sound familiar to you it does i haven't um been on as many as it sounds like some people have but um but definitely that i think there's sort of a trend towards sort of less

drinking in general isn't there in society and um i think that is becoming increasingly common on hendus as well um and the yoga thing I definitely have done a lot of yoga on Hindus and quite a lot of hikes. And yeah, the fitness Hindu seems to be becoming more and more of a thing. I asked friends whether or not they had been on any fitness Hindus. And so many of them have been made to do park runs. And I mean, doing 5K on a hangover sounds... Is that fun? It really doesn't sound fun to me.

I wouldn't do one on a normal Sunday, let alone on a hangover sounds... Is that fun? It really doesn't sound fun to me. I wouldn't do one on a normal Sunday, let alone on a hen too. Lots of park runs, lots of assault courses, lots of horse riding and paddle boarding and like scavenger hunts where you have to run between the locations and Highland Games. Someone did Highland Games.

Someone did a full day of sports day like you're back at school. Wow. Hannah, are you finding that this is exactly these common fitness themes that women are going for absolutely sports days anything outdoors mountain climbing um sports water sports everything really I feel like women are now wanting to go away from a weekend away feeling good about themselves. What's changed? What's happened, Ellie? What has happened?

I mean, I suppose because people are going on, maybe because Hindus are more and more popular and you're going on so many, I think there's something about wanting to make a Hindu kind of unique and different. And so that's why you're often getting themed Hindus now. One friend did a Tudor-themed Hindu. Festival Hindus are quite a big thing. I had one friend did a Tudor themed hendu um that festival hendu is a quite

big thing I had one friend who actually got her name in the style of like the Glastonbury sign for her festival themed hen so I think it's something about standing out from the other hendus I suppose how much of it is all a big how much a hen party's falling victim to the wellness trend I think uh I think it's like everything else everything has fallen victim to the wellness trend i think uh i think it's like everything else everything has fallen bits into the wellness trend hasn't it one friend was saying that she did a yoga class in between um a kind of a boozy afternoon and a night out and ended up just having a nap on the mat amazing i mean that sounds yeah that sounds great um well and uh and do you have any really weird hen party requests come to you really weird hen party requests um not really

actually um i would say just i've really seen a real shift in the yoga branch like it just seems that women have seemed to just really want that for their hen party dues but can't really think of any weird ones if i'm honest so um we've had lots of messages in about this to almost i grew up before hen parties were a thing and I live in a small town which has become very popular for them. Some may touch at the invasion of raucous females, but I love them. They make me smile when I meet them

parading through the streets, loud and outrageous. The ghosts of Victorian ladies who once lived here might be scandalised, but I think they're envious. And that's from Julia. Fantastic. Isn't that great?

Yeah, that's lovely. It might have been you on one of your Hindus. Where did they originate from? Well, I thought that they were an American thing, but I was looking it up this morning and actually it sounds like they were around here before they were around in America. In America they've been around since the 70s when they

were kind of a response to the bachelor party that men were already having and then women decided obviously they wanted to get in on the action. but in this country that the first um mention of a hen do was in in the times in 1976 um and it was in a court case uh for a male stripper who was described as like lewd and some other some other things i can't remember um and that was at that Leicester Crown Court. So yeah, I suppose it doesn't go back hugely far. No, and I suppose that most cultures will have

sort of bridal adornment rituals of some kind where women get together. And I know certainly in the Indian culture, there is the Sangeet night and the henna party. And I mean, you can have as much or as little as you want to drink depending on what your vibe is, I suppose, at those things. But henna is usually preferably done sober. If you were planning a hen party of your own, what would you go for?

Well, I mean, I always kind of think because I've been on so many, I would try very hard to avoid having a hen do and not putting everyone through what I've been put through. But I mean, I think just I would just karaoke. I just think you can't go wrong with karaoke sober karaoke surely definitely not sober no it would have to be a boozy karaoke and uh come on then Helen what about you Hannah so I think um for my home party I would definitely hire a big house with a hot tub um a pool and have the yoga brunch and just have you know just be around your friends really and having a fun time just just to clarify the yoga brunch are you eating mid pose like what's going on are you do you get the yoga done first yeah so the yoga brunch that we sell

basically it's a yoga class and then afterwards you have your brunch served. Very nice. With a glass of fizz or not with a glass of fizz. On your mat, not on your mat. Have a nap if you want to. All sounds good to me. Thank you so much for speaking to me. Both of you, you've got another hen party to go to this weekend, Ellie. Luckily I haven't, but there are a couple coming up.

God, prepare yourself. Bowl of pasta before you go. Oh no, they might be sober for all I know. That's true. I had two friends at my hen party in February 1967. We went to Dolce Vita in Newcastle upon time to see our heartthrob. As we arrived, my car broke down outside and we had to push it. It was a wonderful experience. Thank you so much for sharing it with me.

Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Anita Arnand and over the next 10 episodes for BBC Radio 4, we're going to be exploring a somewhat tricky title, Princess. Join me as I speak to guests like the comedian Sharpat Korsandi and presenter Charlene White about their favourite princesses. We're going to be unpacking scandalous and fabulous legacies, sharing the stories behind some of the most incredible princesses in history. Join me, Anita Arnand, for Princess on BBC Radio 4.

Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.