Woman's Hour - Remembering the victims of Peter Sutcliffe; Women in the wedding industry; Kate Malone

Episode Date: November 13, 2020

The serial killer Peter Sutcliffe has died of Covid 19. He was convicted of the murders of 13 women, and the attempted murder of 7 others, in Yorkshire and the north-west of England between 1975 and 1980. Jane speaks to Joan Smith is a feminist writer and campaigner, and author of Misogynies – she was a reporter in the North of England at the time. Louise Watiss is a criminologist at Teeside University and Carol Anne Lee is the author of Somebody’s Mother Somebody’s Daughter. We also hear from Richard McCann whose mother Wilma was the first woman killed by Peter Sutcliffe, and Mo Lea who 40 years ago was an art student In Leeds when she was attacked. Sutcliffe was never convicted of the assault on Mo.During the current English lockdown, only ‘deathbed’ marriages and civil partnerships are possible, and there can be no parties. In the other nations of the UK, small ceremonies are being allowed, and in some cases very limited receptions. Overall this year an estimated 200,000 weddings have been cancelled due to the restrictions imposed on social gatherings to try and limit the spread of Covid-19. So what impact is all this having on the hundreds of thousands of women who work in the wedding industry? Jane speaks to Jessie Westwood, founder of the campaign What About Weddings and owner of wedding & event production company Studio Sorores, and to Jemma Palmer who runs bridal boutique Halo & Wren.Kate Malone is one of the UK’s leading potters and ceramicists. She tells Jane about the therapeutic benefits of working with clay.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. It's Friday the 13th of November 2020. Good morning. The serial killer Peter Sutcliffe is dead. He was convicted of the murders of 13 women in Yorkshire and the north-west of England between 1975 and 1980. They were Wilma McCann, Emily Jackson, Irene Richardson, Patricia Atkinson, Jane MacDonald, Jean Jordan, Yvonne Pearson,

Helen Ritker, Vera Millwood, Josephine Whittaker, Barbara Leach, Marguerite Walls and Jacqueline Hill. Now this morning we're going to talk to Joan Smith, feminist writer, campaigner and author of Misogynies. Louise Wattis can join us. She's a criminologist at Teesside University. And Carol Anne Lee is the author of Somebody's Mother, Somebody's Daughter. First, let's hear more from Richard McCann.

You briefly heard his voice in the news bulletin at 10 o'clock. His mother, Wilma, was the first woman killed by Peter Sutcliffe. Richard talked to Sheila McLennan on Woman's Hour in 2004. Sonia woke me about 5.30. Angela was crying the youngest and went into the mum's bedroom looking for her. Obviously she wasn't there, so Sonia woke me and says, you know, mum's not here, let's go looking for her. And she wouldn't normally have left you alone?

No, we'd always have a babysitter. Obviously the babysitter had waited for so long and then gone home. She had school in the morning. And yes, we went looking. I put my coats on and me and Sonia headed down to the local bus stop. And the terrible thing was that your mum's body was not far from where you were. Yeah, we walked down the path at the back of the house on the field, which is what mum always told us to do so the neighbours couldn't see us. And yeah, luckily for us, it was a dark,

cold October morning, not a summer's day. We may have seen her. Now, immediately afterwards, you were taken to a children's home and told mummy's gone to heaven. You didn't go to a funeral. I think it was something like 10 years, wasn't it, Richard, before you visited her grave. But by trying to protect you from the awfulness of her death, you never really grasped what had happened or what was going on. No. Initially, as you say, we weren't told what had happened, but we did quite quickly grasp what had happened because, obviously, there was further victims and in graphic detail. So you found out from the babies? Yeah, basically. We knew she'd been attacked by a man

that's all we knew initially and obviously as victims two and three and four appeared in the papers along with mum's picture we read about it and learnt about it that way That's awful Those were the cards we were dealt and you know you just had to accept it

And the thing was, I mean I can remember the press coverage, and every time there was a new victim, they'd have all those photographs, didn't they? The black and white photos of the women. And you said they used an old photo of your mum. She was 18, I think, a black and white passport photograph. It wasn't the mother that I remembered.

No, the loving mother that was there for us and would put food on the table and care for us and never lift a hand to us. It was some young girl black and white picture and once they started making this association with the victims being prostitutes there was a kind of assumption that every victim had been a prostitute it wasn't the case at all was it and wasn't the case with your own mum and i didn't learn that until years later i accepted or i yeah i understood the press would always tell the truth and if that's what they said about mum then that's what she was which was

not nice to read and hear about and to have your school friends know the same you know it was quite embarrassing obviously as I've grown up and learnt more about mum she was never a convicted prostitute just in the last few months of her life yes she was slightly reckless

and went out. Because she'd had a tough life. She had had a tough life, and she was on her own. Dad had left her, and, you know, his current girlfriend was pregnant, and I guess that really upset Mum, and she was just trying to have a little bit of enjoyment, and ultimately she paid for that with her life. Richard McCann talking about his mother, Wilmish.

He, of course, tragically was just a very, very small child when she was killed. Let's talk to Joan Smith first of all. Joan, when you first heard about the death of Sutcliffe, has it taken you back? How has it made you feel? Well, I think I had an enormous sense of relief. That was the first thing.

But then a moment later, I was just struck by so many feelings that go back to that time it was so powerful I was living in Manchester towards the end of the attack towards the end of the series of murders and attacks and and he'd already killed two women there and you know I it just brought back that sensation of fear and what's going to happen next and feeling unprotected. So I think it'll be a really difficult morning for a lot of women who, even if they were at school then, you know, will bring back that atmosphere of fear and anxiety. It is, in fact, I think, 40 years ago since Jacqueline, the last victim, Jacqueline Hill, was murdered. Next Tuesday is the 40th anniversary of the murder of Jacqueline Hill and she was a student who was walking home from a

meeting at the probation service where she wanted to volunteer in Headingley in Leeds and by then the pattern of the attacks was that he started by attacking any woman he could find out at night. Then when there was a huge amount of publicity, he started going to red light districts and attacking prostituted women. And then later, because there were so many police in all the red light districts, he started attacking, you know, random women who were out at night. And Jacqueline happened to be the last victim. And it is very tragic because, you know,

this young woman was a student at Leeds University. She's lost 40 years of life. And I think that figure really brings home to you just the devastation that this man caused. Yes, it's worth noting the youngest victim was just 16. The oldest was only 47. These women were robbed of so much and so were their families. That's right. And in fact, the youngest victim was 14. I mean, you know, the police didn't include her in the in the series because she had the wrong profile. But yes, I mean, these women's lives were dramatically changed, even the ones who survived. I interviewed several of the of the surviving victims shortly before he was caught. And you could see the the damage it had wrought, even on women who survived. And I don't think any woman who was around in the north of England at that time

will ever be able to hear his name without some kind of shudder. Just take us back then, Joan, to exactly what you were doing and how close you got to the police investigation? So I, at the end of 1978, I went to work for a local radio station in Manchester, where, as I said, he'd actually killed two women. So because it was such a huge story, I then started going to press conferences in Leeds and Halifax and places like that when more murders were committed. The first murder I actually covered was Josephine Whittaker in Halifax. And I always remember driving to Halifax, which I didn't know at all, and driving to the scene, which was a little park, and seeing the forensic tent, and then going to a press conference. And from a very early moment,

several things struck me. One was that there were no women involved in this case at all. All the detectives were male, virtually all the reporters were male because in those days crime correspondents were and they drank with the police and they were mates and I felt that right from the beginning that women didn't have a voice and so much so that when the famous hoax tape was released and the police did a kind of stunt where they invited reporters to come to Moss Side Police Station in Manchester and, you know, you're now going to hear the voice of the Yorkshire Ripper and I was the only woman reporter there and I was carrying a big old tape recorder and a notebook

and the police had actually been talking to local prostituted women beforehand and then we came into the same room and the head of the Ripper Squad in Manchester assumed I was a prostitute and told me I was too late because the women had gone. Because he just assumed that a woman couldn't be a journalist. And then when he played the tape, I put my hand up and said, have you edited the tape? And he said no.

And I said there is nothing on that tape? And he said no. And I said, there is nothing on that tape that isn't in the public domain. I thought it was a hoax from the very beginning. I think three women died as a result. Yeah, well, we need to make clear, for some of our younger listeners, they weren't around at the time, or they were very, very young, that the hoax tape did cause huge problems and sent the police in completely the wrong direction. Yes, and they spent a million pounds on a publicity campaign, huge posters saying, listen to this voice, do you know this voice, get in touch, this is the voice of the killer. And of course, we now know that it was actually a hoaxer, a man called John Humble, who had a hostility to the police. And he made this tape and he wrote letters to the police as well. And he sent this tape. And of all the hoax material that they got,

they chose to believe this one. And because he had a very strong Wearside accent, and, you know, you could dial a number and hear the supposedly the voice of the Yorkshire Ripper. So people were all looking for this person from the northeast, even though the victims, including women like Olive Smelt, he'd actually spoken to her before he attacked her. And she said very clearly from the start he had a local accent and the police chose not to listen to the victims. Right. Let's talk about the attitudes to the victims.

Some were sex workers or had done sex work, but not all. That's right. And, you know, I was saying a moment ago that the police were determined right from the start that this was a man who had a hostility to prostitutes. In fact, the police sort of wrote his defence for him before he was ever caught, that this was a man who was on a mission, which is what Sutcliffe later said himself. But when you look at the pattern, he starts off by attacking a 14-year-old schoolgirl, a couple of women coming home, you know, after a night out in different parts of Yorkshire. And of course, he's interrupted because if you try and kill somebody in a quiet residential street late at night and they scream and cars go by. He was interrupted. So then he moved to the red light areas. And that's what's so horrifying about the coverage, which was, you know, as later on, one of the senior officers, when Jane McDonald,

who was a shop assistant, when she was killed, there was a press conference where one of the senior detectives actually said he thought the killer had made a mistake. And he actually said also, many people hate, you obviously hate prostitutes, many people do. I mean, this was shocking stuff because it was the most blatant victim blaming. But also, it actually sent them off in the wrong direction because they were excluding really important evidence from one case that they didn't think belonged in the series, even though that young

woman right at the beginning had given a fantastic photo fit. So, you know, one of the great problems of this case was not listening to the victims. And the awful thing is, I don't think we're much better at that now. Well, let's talk to Carol Ann Lee, author of Somebody's Mother, Somebody's Daughter. Carol, your book is an attempt to put the victims front and centre of this saga. Yeah, it is. I mean, everything Joan has said there, I completely second. You know, I mean, the attitude of the police at the time was appalling. And certainly the attitude of the police at the time was appalling and certainly the attitude of the media. You know, there were sort of great editorials, especially after Jane McDonald's murder, where, you know, I think it was the Yorkshire Evening Post really sent out this editorial to the killer himself saying, you know, it's gone wrong.

Your mission has gone wrong. You've now killed an innocent girl. Sorry, to interrupt, they actually said, they said those specific words? Yes, yes, it's in the editorial. And I spoke to Jane MacDonald's sister, Deborah, who was her younger sister. And she said, even despite all their unbelievably pervasive grief at the time about the loss of Jane. Her parents felt very strongly about the way it was being reported, the way the case was being investigated by the police, that it was completely unfair and outrageous that women were being separated into two camps because they lived in the area where other women were murdered.

They lived in the area where, well, they lived close to Wilma McCann as well. So they knew some of the other women and they were just absolutely appalled by the way everything was going and couldn't understand it at all. Louise, sorry to interrupt, Louise Wattis, criminologist. You're younger, I think, certainly than I am, and Joan, what did you know about this growing up? really, of this guy with those dark eyes and the beard. So I didn't know that much about it. I heard Richard McCann on the radio and I was really moved by that. And this sparked my interest. And I remember watching Red Riding, which was so dark and unsettling, the adaptation of David Peace's work.

And it just really got me interested in this case. I wasn't interested in serial killers whatsoever. I was interested in violence against women gender and fear of crime and I wasn't interested in serial killers for precisely the reasons that you know the focus is always on kind of you know the male murderer at the expense of the victims um you know repeatedly but then I started asking about the case case and people were telling me just how much of an impact it had had on their lives. I remember my partner telling me, and this is in Middlesbrough in the North East, 60 miles from Leeds, telling me how they were really scared for like him and his siblings, for the mother. So they go and meet her at the bus stop when she came

home from work. So I decided I wanted to do some research on it and really kind of explore the impact. And what have people told you? When I went out and did the research? Well, the fear obviously emerged massively in terms of the fear that women felt at the time. Some women talked about being obsessed with the case, feeling that they were under siege, the disruption to their lives, the fact that shifts had to be changed, they had to be picked up from work, that type of thing.

The way that they would focus on particular victims who they felt some identification with. I interviewed two students at the time who talked repeatedly about jacqueline hill and the impact of that murder because their lives yeah because she was at leeds university yeah yeah and and the tape and the fact that you couldn't get away from it you couldn't get away from this this murderer in their midst uh you know, because of the kind of the physical roadblocks, the tape and hearing that voice everywhere.

So people just felt like they couldn't escape from it. I did also find, though, you know, quite a mixed, some mixed accounts in terms of fear, the way women would tell me about how they resisted fear. They weren't going to be told what to do. They weren't going to be told to stay in. They weren't going to be told to stay. I remember very vividly a quote from one woman saying to me, you can't let folk scare you. What sort of life is that?

Well, I'm glad you mentioned that. And Joan, this allows me to ask you about that the police did tell women to stay inside, not go out at night. Yes. And the job I was doing on a radio station every third week we had a shift system and I would come on at 3.30 in the afternoon and work till 1.30 in the morning so and you know I was a reporter so I would go out to cover stories and things that were happening in the evening and it was just extraordinary here with here with the police saying women shouldn't go out after dark or you shouldn't go out after dark, or you shouldn't go out on your own. And I was thinking, well, I'm not the only woman here who actually has a job that

needs, I need to go out at night. And, you know, there are nurses, there are women who work in factories, there are all kinds of jobs where women had to do that. But also, women just wanting to go out with their friends, you know, girls wanting to go for a drink with a mate or something and this has persisted for years and years and when when joe yates was was murdered in bristol a few years ago i noticed that the police once again suggested that women should maybe leave work early not go out after dark so this is basically the idea of a curfew for women so when something terrible happens and we are the victims of crime, the police response has always been to tell us to avoid being attacked rather than telling men to stay indoors.

Thank you all for the time being. I just want to bring in the testimony of Mo Lee. Now, she was a student too in Leeds, an art student 40 years ago. She survived an attack by the Yorkshire Ripper. It was Saturday night and the boyfriend that I was with went to London for a CND march so I was on my own but I arranged to meet my friends anyway and went out and we were conscious of me getting the last bus home. We had a few drinks and then we parted in Headingley by the park because I had to go into town to get my bus.

And they were concerned. Are you going to be all right? I said, yeah, fine. Yeah, no problems at all. And then I walked through the university grounds. So I got to the university clock tower and decided to take a shortcut. And as I approached, I realised that there was a street light out so I started to pace myself and then this this voice came from behind me hello hi really friendly I thought it's obviously someone I know they definitely know me because they're so friendly and it was dark so I stopped and I turned around and I walked towards him and he started chatting and I realized I didn't I didn't recognize this person and then

I sensed danger he was holding himself very strangely so I turned and went and started to run and run and then I could hear his footsteps running behind me faster and faster and then I was absolutely like nightmare terror I knew I was in severe danger and then I heard this massive whack on the top of my head and now all I could see and from what I remember is the pavement coming up towards my face and that's all that I remember. And when you came to, you were obviously in hospital. Actually, largely, you were only in hospital because of the intervention of a passing stranger. Yeah, apparently they'd heard me scream.

They were at the end of the road and saw a man leaning over me. I was unconscious and he saw them and ran. Otherwise it would have been the final blow for me. I was so lucky, really lucky. What was the reaction of the people in hospital? Well, I was really very badly, badly bruised and bloodied and cut and swollen and my hair was bloodstained and I woke up in the morning and saw all these women staring at me.

And one of them said, what have you done to deserve that? Did the police at that time connect what happened to you to Peter Sutcliffe? No. No. The police, either through embarrassment that another victim had arrived. Because there'd been many by then. There had been many by then. And Leeds was really in a state of almost lockdown and the women were frightened to go out

and the police just had no idea what was going on. Did you make a possible connection with Peter Sutcliffe? Not immediately, no. It wasn't until Sutcliffe was found and I saw his face on the television screen and it wasn't the iconic image of the wedding picture with the bow tie. It was when he left a police van and went into a courtroom and that's when I recognised that that it was him but I was ashamed I was embarrassed I felt guilty I thought I'd been stupid for walking in the wrong place a part of me felt I deserved it and deserved it why because I'd gone out on my own and Deserved it? Why? A lot of the men, including university lecturers and the police, had a kind of misogynistic tone to speaking to young women. You know, we weren't taken seriously, I don't think.

That's Mo Lee recounting her experience 40 years ago. I should say Sutcliffe was never actually convicted of that assault on Mo. Our thanks to her. Very powerful testimony that. Joan Smith, I used the term Yorkshire Ripper. I confess that was a mistake. I didn't intend to. Why do we have these names for these people? Oh, this is absolutely a huge problem. I think it goes back to the 19th century and the emergence of multiple murderous serial killers.

And I don't think people to this day understand the damage this kind of mythologizing does. So the Yorkshire Ripper is obviously a reference to Jack the Ripper. And, you know, a lot of comparisons were made during the 1970s, during this period with the Whitechapel killer who murdered five women. And of course, the point is that he was never caught and we know virtually nothing about him to this day. And we're only just beginning to find out about his actual victims. So what it does is it gives this person a kind of almost mythological aspect. And I think it overshadows the victims, of course, who just have ordinary women's names.

But also it creates a kind of gladiatorial contest where the police are chasing this kind of extraordinary figure. And I always felt very, very strongly from the start, I always thought he was probably quite an ordinary bloke in most respects of his life. And if you go looking for a figure from the midst of Victorian England, you know, you're not going to come up with a lorry driver from Bradford. So it got in the way. And even I find myself referring to him as the Yorkshire Ripper because the name has stuck. But it's a very uncomfortable thing. And I don't know how we get round it, but it certainly does a lot of damage to these inquiries.

Joan, thank you very much. Of course, the death of Sutcliffe was only reported first thing this morning. So we haven't yet seen the breadth of coverage of his death that I'm sure there will be over the course of today and in the newspapers tomorrow. But Louise Wattis, based on what you've seen so far, what do you think of the tone of it all? Well, if I'm honest, Jane, I've not seen that much. I only found out about the fact that he was dying when your producer got in touch with me because I've never been that interested in him. Obviously, to an extent, you know, I've focused on him.

But for me, it was always about the impact of this case. It was always about the victims. And just to kind of agree with everything that Joan has said, you know, historically, we've always had as a culture this fixation with the serial killer, the male murderer at the expense of victims who were either ignored objectified or blamed and if you interfere with that narrative you know that there is often backlash one just has to see what's happened to holly rubinold in regard to her to her book about daring yeah to write a book about the victims of the white chapel killerel killer. Yes, absolutely. And suggest that some of them weren't linked to prostitution, that, you know, the misogynist backlash from ripperologists.

Yeah, you're absolutely right to make that point. And Carol, what do you think? Do you fear that, in fact, as Joan said right at the start of our conversation, that perhaps not enough has changed in the way this is likely to be covered? I do. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I had a quick look this morning online and certainly, you know, we've got the black and white sort of montage of the women's faces, which doesn't actually include two of the women who were killed. Jacqueline Hill's photograph isn't in there and neither is Marguerite Wall's.

But again, it's just this checkerboard of images and just reducing the victims to, well, not even talking about their lives. There's very, very little discussion about their lives and their lives were very diverse. You know, they are linked only insofar as this horrific man attacked them or killed them. But other than that, they were very different.

You know, there was university students, there were know um helen ritka for instance she had worked literally as a prostitute for a couple of nights when she was attacked and she'd done that purely to protect her sister who'd gone into that lifestyle um not lifestyle sorry life um, that work, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I mean, their background, the Ritka sisters, you know, Helen Ritkel dreamed of being a singer. You know, she was going around the nightclubs trying to become a singer to get noticed. She was so young when she died. You know, she was a teenager. All these women had the prospect of lives ahead of them, good lives.

And certainly, you know, I think what we have to remember is that there are so many people today who will be affected by that news, not because they have anything other than feelings of extreme revulsion and hatred towards Sutcliffe, but because it will, I mean, it never goes away. It's stupid to say it brings back that time for them because it just never goes away.

But I think a lot of people will be remembering, and I hope people who, you know, who have no connection with the case will be remembering the women today. I mean, that is the key thing. Obviously, you brought in Mo Lee there. Mo's a friend of mine and her book has just come out and it's extraordinary.

And if you want to do something that is against sort of all this sort of mythologizing of Sutcliffe and all the coverage we're going to get inevitably of him today I would say read her book it's absolutely extraordinary what's it called it's called um surviving the ripper and it's absolutely brilliant. You know, she's a brilliant artist in her own right. And the way she discusses how she got through that period is just extraordinary. She's an extraordinary woman. So I would urge anyone to go out and read that book. Thank you very much, Caroline Lee, author of Somebody's Mother, Somebody's Daughter.

You also heard from the criminologist Louise Wattis and from Joan Smith, author of Misogynies, amongst other important works. And yes, just to acknowledge that what we're trying to do, what we've tried to do this morning is to talk about the women whose lives were ended so cruelly and whose ambitions were never

allowed to be fulfilled and whose dreams went by the wayside as well, and of course to their families as well. We extend course, to their families as well. We extend our sympathy and support this morning. Now, on Monday, Women's Hour will finally reveal the women who've made our power list. Our planet has been the theme of our 2020 power list. Really looking forward to that in a year that hasn't been, let's face it, all that positive. Monday's programme is going to be bursting with positivity as we announce the women who've made the Women's Hour Power List Our Planet for 2020. Really,

really looking forward to that. Now, something that the coronavirus has completely devastated has been the female-dominated wedding industry. In England, marriages are allowed only if a person is very, very seriously ill. In the rest of the UK, small ceremonies are allowed and in some cases, small receptions as well. But thousands of ceremonies have had to be cancelled. Jessie Westwood is a campaigner and wedding events business owner. She runs Studios Sorores, that's right. Good morning to you. And Gemma Palmer is the owner of Halo and Wren Bridal Boutique in Hemel Hempstead. Jessie, you are, you're someone who puts together an entire wedding package. Is that right?

Yeah. So we're the first point of contact in terms of finding a venue, setting a budget, doing the design plan and sourcing all of the suppliers and then delivering that event. So the impact of all this on you has been what? Gigantic. Huge. Money, in terms of money coming in, what's happened? In many different ways um yes in terms of revenue um when all of the pandemic started we um had a huge job to do in not knowing exactly when we'd be restarting and postponing as many of our weddings as possible most of which were into 2021 um so as you can imagine all of the revenue we expected to come through in our peak season, which runs through from April through to September, was pushed out. But there was also

an incredible amount of admin involved in liaising with suppliers, rearranging their dates and supporting our couples through what was a really quite difficult time for everybody. And an emotional time, because I imagine people, well, their emotions must have been all over the place and tempers possibly a bit frayed as well. What was that like? Yeah, emotions were all over the place. But actually one of the amazing things that's come out of this was how incredibly supportive clients and couples were of suppliers

and vice versa in trying to be as flexible as possible in moving dates, as kind as possible and understanding that it wasn't easy for anybody. So I guess that's something positive that came out of it is that everybody rose to the occasion. it was an intensely difficult period that was stressful and for many couples in particular, emotionally very difficult, depending on their circumstances. And of course, you employ other people to work for you on behalf of your clients. So Floris, for example, what's happened to them? Yeah, we actually have a floristry side of our business, which was knocked pretty hard. Unlike planning, where I continually was working, i'll be at a slightly different capacity um it just completely stopped we weren't providing flowers for events at all we are not a floristry shop we specialize in event

flowers as a lot of florists across the uk do um and the work completely dried up. And it was the most difficult thing, I think, is not knowing when we can restart or the constant sort of changes and rules and having to pivot and respond in the best way we can. And Gemma Palmer, you're actually at the bridal, the dress end of things. And again, a lot of emotion here. And anyone who's ever been through the experience understands that this is a big investment. It's a big moment in so many women's lives. What's happened to your business? Yeah, it's a huge purchase and an expensive purchase. So there's a huge amount, like you said, of emotion attached to this purchase. So from the retail perspective, the moment that there are us non-essential, which obviously psychologically is not the nicest thing to hear, businesses were shut. That has a knock on effect for purchasing and brides kind of emotions surrounding the purchase as well uh it's an instant you know the money stops so they're the performance this year that there is no sales so

um financially the impact is huge and psychologically being kind of labeled non-essential being told to shut i know it's not a whim but it feels like a whim you know when it's kind of you're you're you're back open in July and August and you're selling and you're trying to make up for that that time and then September comes along you get through September and in October we're told right this is it you know you're shutting again beginning of November and and it did feel almost overnight you know kind of hanging on that thread so from a financial perspective huge a huge impact. Can I ask just on a practical note are you having to ring people up and remind them to make payments how does it all work? Yes yes I mean every boutique

will have a different purchasing requirement and I've always approached mine in um a cash flow point of view for the business as in trying to spread the payments across the year so that cash flow comes in you know consistently and also from a bride's purchasing perspective i would hope that that allows a bride to spread their payments and you know and and save up for when that next instalment is due. But obviously, brides have lost jobs. They've been furloughed. They might have massively downsized their wedding. And it has made a huge kind of difficulty for them to pay. And obviously, then we, myself, is then chasing those payments.

And some people aren't able to to pay for a dress that they have ordered and you know the dresses are not cheap they're handmade items well they are i mean they're fat let's be honest they're we're talking sort of over two thousand pounds here in some cases this is a lot of money and the dresses are still being made that's the important thing yeah do you feel do you feel listened to jemma, not at all. I think the wedding industry, the whole, not just retail side of it, but the whole industry has been completely ignored. And it's seen as almost a frivolous thing to do to get married. And it's essentially not.

It's just love. And it's just people wanting to be together and they want their friends and their family to see this incredibly important moment in their life. And I don't understand why this has not been valued, let alone the kind of financial contribution that the wedding industry makes. Well, it makes billions, I was going to say. Yeah, absolutely. But more importantly, it's joy. You know, it brings joy in our lives. And whether you decide to get married or not, everybody's been to a wedding and everybody's had the best time, you know, and it's such a monumental occasion in your life that for this just to be kind of dismissed as frivolous and

non-essential and told to get new jobs, it's disgusting, really. But do you understand, Jessie, why weddings have had to be, in most cases, certainly in England at the moment, just prohibited? Because they are places where people gather from all parts of the country, in some cases from all parts of the world. It's too dangerous at the moment, isn't it? Yeah, of course. I don't think there's any business in the wedding industry that wants to contribute to the crisis we are facing as a country. That's certainly true. I think what we would like is some evidence and some data around the restrictions that were there that have been taken away again.

It's a strategy and a roadmap and an idea of when we'll be able to reopen. We're a seasonal business. We lost an entire year of work. We need to look ahead to next year. And we need to be looking at solutions like rapid testing and opening with capacity considered in the same way as hospitality. And the very... Oh, I think we've just lost Jessie.

Let's just briefly go back to Gemma. Gemma, do you believe that precisely because this industry is female dominated, 85% I think of businesses was just left to the very last moment to kind of bring back and obviously now their clothes along with us as well so yeah I for sure I mean for a woman I'm not saying that it's entirely equal because it's clearly not but for most of us our wedding, you know, is what we dream of. And, you know, maybe not all of us, but generally it's the woman part of the female side of it, as opposed to, you know, women marry men, the men part that get as involved. So, yeah, I do feel like this industry has been completely forgotten about. And going back to that subject you were talking about with Jesse and the numbers, obviously I agree that no wedding should be going ahead risking safety, but it's very hard to watch when restaurants are open

or were open over that period of time when we were allowed 15, yet you look at scenes in London and people are gathered in their hundreds outside restaurants. It's quite gutting, actually, to sort of see that you can't have a wedding. And actually, a wedding is, you know, don't get me wrong, there's a joyous drunk part for most, but most of it is fairly controlled as a date. And you're sitting, you're sitting. Yes, and people can be perhaps trusted to behave better than the authorities might expect, I guess. Yes, because, yeah, it's your way out of love. I really appreciate that you're up against it and you've been a brilliant contributor.

Thank you very much indeed for talking to us and may things look up for you and everybody else involved in the very important wedding business. That was Gemma Palmer, owner of Halo and Wren Bridal Boutique. And you also heard from Jessie Westwood, who runs Studios Sorores in Gloucestershire our thanks to her as well Kate Malone joins us now one of the UK's leading potters and ceramicists. Kate good morning to you I sounded so enthusiastic there so it was bound

to result in the contributor not being there. Let's try again. Kate Malone are you there? No she isn't, she isn't there. So what we'll do while we wait is talk basically about some of the reactions from you to the conversation we had earlier. And here's an important tweet actually from Jonathan. I think the book that your interviewee wanted to recommend regarding Sutcliffe was not called Surviving the Ripper, as she said, but Facing the Yorkshire Ripper, the Art of Survival.

The author, Mo Lee, who was one of the women who was attacked almost certainly by Peter Sutcliffe, although he was never charged with that attack. So that book, if you're interested in reading Mo's story, is called Surviving the Ripper. What else have we got on Twitter? Let me just go down the screen a little bit here. This is important too from Andrea. I hope the BBC will repeat the excellent documentary The Yorkshire Ripper Files, a very British crime story. It's a lot better than the somewhat sensationalist title suggests. I agree, Andrea. I saw that series and it is really excellent and I'm sure the BBC may well consider showing it again. Kate Malone is

back. Kate, good morning to you. Good morning, good morning, good morning. Now, sock it to me, the benefits of clay and what I can do with it. Over to you. Well, what can I say? I mean, where do I start? You've got two minutes, so make the most of it. Oh, no. Well, what can I say? I mean, where do I start? You've got two minutes, so make the most of it.

Oh, no. Well, essentially, it's just such a mindful and patient and generous material that's ever present in our lives. You know, we live in houses made of it, and we eat from it, and we take it and imbibe it as medicine, and it's just the most wonderful thing. And really, you know, I had a whole list of things to talk to you about. But if we have to cut short. Well, I think what's important is that you need to emphasize its usefulness in helping young people.

So tell us about that. Exactly, yes. Well, I experienced ceramics at a big, rough, comprehensive school outside Bristol when I was young. And there was a fantastic arts policy basically and I had a go at ceramics woodwork metalwork sewing cooking and it was a big part of the national curriculum and the timetable and now you want to bring it back yes I wouldn't be doing what I do now for that and I want to bring it back so I've asked 32 of England's top sort of makers of ceramics

and fine artists to make a piece out of three kilos of clay. And we're auctioning their pieces next week. The project's called Fired Up Four. And we're auctioning it to raise money to build studios in two on-site youth zones and also to provide teaching, you know, because you can't just have kilns and potters' wheels, you have to have the teachers. So we're really excited because we're trying to bring that

back into young people's lives because you feel so empowered when you make something in ceramics. You feel so clever and you experience the elements so closely and it's so mindful and it builds patience in a child and, you know, it's just the most wonderful material, really. That was Kate Malone. And in a bizarre episode after the live radio programme, I did actually make my own pot with the clay that Kate had very kindly provided.

And she's right, you know, it's so, so therapeutic. I'm going to take it home, stick it in the oven. And I think realistically, its fate is to become a water bowl for our Dora, the new kitten. So we'll see how she gets on with that. But I'm actually quite proud of it. It was incredibly nice to do. So thanks to Kate for that. And I'm sorry that the technical problems we had meant that we didn't have very long with her.

We have, though, had this response from, let me just check the name here, from Sue. I was listening to Woman's Hour this morning, just putting the finishing touches to my clay relief. My husband and I set up my attic as a studio during lockdown and we're complete beginners. I cannot put into words how much relief clay sculpting has given me. We're musicians and we lost all of our concert bookings overnight. Having a creative outlet is so important for our well-being. Sue, thank you for that and thank you for expressing it. And I'm sorry that you, like many other creative people, musicians in your case,

you've had such a tough time and our thoughts are with you. And we're going to try and cover as many different aspects of the impact of the coronavirus on our listeners. So if there is any other area of British life that you feel we haven't touched, there is still time to contact us via the website BBC.co.uk forward slash Woman's Hour. Many of you this morning wanting to comment on our first conversation, which was about the death of the serial killer Peter Sutcliffe. Alison says, thank you for reading out the names of his victims. Too often they're forgotten. Not every victim was a sex worker and those women who were are equally deserving of dignity. I also do not like the title Yorkshire Ripper, as I really think it sensationalises his appalling crimes.

Diana says, I was a student at Leeds University and I lived in Headingley between 1975 and 1982. We lived in a weird climate of fear and defiance. Some of our male friends were interviewed by the police and that awful hoax tape was played everywhere but we were determined not to be imprisoned by him and to try to live as normal a life as possible. We were sensible though most of the time and our hearts sank every time another murder was announced. I thought the police were hopeless throughout and extremely judgmental and patronising about his victims. It was, says Diana, a disgrace. Linda says, I was a student in Bradford at the time. Where I lived, I had a parking area where the police set up a van

playing that hoax tape on a loop. It was creepy and horrible. A student's body was found about five doors down from there. The women in my house had to ask one of the men to accompany us if we wanted to go anywhere. They were happy to do it, but I found it incredibly restricting and infantilising. From Barbara, I was a student in Cambridge while Peter Cook was an active criminal

and our lives were curtailed and restricted by our own fear and also by the attitude that we should take responsibility for our safety. When the women who can afford and manage to be in safe places at night do so, the streets become more dangerous for the women who can't. Retail, hospitality, food production and healthcare, the women who work in these sectors don't have the choice to self-curfew, even if the whole issue of male violence were up to women to control, which it isn't. From Tina, I went to Leeds University in 1981

and the Students' Union laid on a free minibus for women students so none of us had to use public transport after dark. I used it many times. It's difficult to explain how much fear there was. His death is a bleak reminder of dark times. Anonymous says I was attacked walking home from uni one night in the early 80s. I was rescued by a passing woman in a mini who I was never able to thank because I never took her name and the police didn't bother to find her.

Listening to your report, I suddenly realised that to this day, I blame myself for walking home alone. How bizarre. A liberating realisation. Thank you. And Cecilia says, your report is taking me back to my teenage years. I wasn't allowed to go anywhere alone after dark and my dad became my taxi driver and would also take my mum to and from work. We were all scared and it made me very protective of my own girls in their teenage years. One of my teachers, who happened to be a Geordie, was stopped and interviewed by the police three times. That climate of fear never leaves you

and I can't help but be glad that he's no longer alive. We need more women in positions of authority to ensure that women, and what they do in life to survive, is not seen solely through Thank you all for contributing this morning. I really do appreciate it. And I thought our contributors were excellent today. So thank you very much. Have a reasonable weekend and join me if you can for the best of our Women's Hour week, which of course you'll hear on the radio

at four o'clock on Saturday and then it will be available in podcast form a little later. Take care. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. The Piper. A new thriller from BBC Sounds.

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A new thriller starring Tamsin Althwaite with music from Bat for Lashes' Natasha Khan. Subscribe to The Piper, a new thriller starring Tamsin Althwaite, with music from Bat for Lashes' Natasha Khan. Subscribe to The Piper on BBC Sounds. most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.