Woman's Hour - Repeat Attenders, Lockdown in your 20s, Kindness

Episode Date: May 18, 2020

What makes someone want to go to see the same show at the theatre time and time again? We talk to documentary maker Mark Dooley about his film, Repeat Attenders – which follows some of musical theatre’s super-fans – and to Gudrun Mangel who features in the film and has found the confidence to be herself as a huge fan of Starlight Express.Most young people are at low risk of catching or falling seriously ill because of COVID-19 but it’s still having a serious impact. From future job prospects to living arrangements, how is the Coronavirus pandemic and lockdown affecting women in their twenties? Jackie Adedeji is 26 and has moved back in with her parents. Erin Bradshaw is 22 and taking her final exams in her third year at university.We are currently living through a time when kindness is very much to the fore, frequently commented on and valued. The COVID-19 pandemic has led to spontaneous, widely recognised and (literally) applauded acts of kindness, from individuals and communities across the UK. From the one million-plus volunteers who signed up to assist the most vulnerable, to the donation of Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) equipment by businesses. Today the Mental Health Foundation are publishing the results of a poll about attitudes to kindness and mental health as part of Mental Health Awareness Week which this year is focusing on the theme of kindness. Lucy Thorpe is their head of policy.Comics are attracting an increasing female readership and is filled with women telling their stories. Trina Robbins is a collector, art historian and one of the pioneering women in the underground comic scene of the late 60s and 70s. She’s the co-creator of a new exhibition ‘Women in Comics: Looking Forward and Back’ in New York. UK Comics Laureate Hannah Berry is undertaking a national survey gathering data to ensure the best representation for comic creators whose voices often aren’t heard. Charlotte Mei is an illustrator whose first narrative comic is being featured in an upcoming publication, featuring an all-female group of artists.Presented by Jane Garvey Produced by Jane ThurlowInterviewed guest: Jackie Adedeji Interviewed guest: Erin Bradshaw Interviewed guest: Mark Dooley Interviewed guest: Gudrun Mangel Interviewed guest: Lucy Thorpe Interviewed guest: Trina Robbins Interviewed guest: Hannah Berry Interviewed guest: Charlotte Mei

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It's the Women's Hour podcast. It's the 18th of... Yes, it really is the 18th now. It's the 18th of May 2020 and we're all still here, just about. Good morning to you. Welcome to another week on the programme. We're live at Broadcasting House. Hope your weekend was reasonable. If you want to make contact with us, it's at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter, or you can email the programme via our website. And thanks as ever for all the emails that have come in over the weekend. Some of them

actually talking about last Friday's programme, which was all about the over 70s in lockdown and about family relationships. If you missed that programme, you can of course get it on BBC Sounds. Today, our focus is going to be on people in their 20s. How are they feeling? Some of them have had to go back home. Others are feeling a bit bereft about what might happen to their employment chances. And of course, with good reason, some would say. So we are on the programme this morning, going to talk to two people in slightly challenging circumstances, both in their 20s.

Jackie Adedaji can talk to us us and so too can Erin Bradshaw. They're waiting for us. Jackie, Erin, good morning to you both. Morning. Good morning. Good morning. And we'll talk to you and get your stories after we've spoken to Lucy Thorpe, who's head of policy at the Mental Health Foundation. Lucy, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, this is because it is Mental Health Awareness Week and this programme this morning will be followed by our Mental Health Minute on Radio 4 just before the news at 11 o'clock. What is the focus of Mental Health Awareness Week. This seemed like a very appropriate thing to be thinking

about at this time when we have seen very much kindness in our society, a very strong impulse to help others to know how we can connect socially to support each other. And it's very important that we use this, we think, to think about what kind of society we want after the pandemic as well. The kindness is something that most of us assume we're already doing. Have you noticed that people are making more of a concerted effort to reach out during the lockdown? Absolutely we have and we've seen it in the number of people who volunteered when the government asked for volunteers to help people. We've seen it coming through in the way that people working in our health service who already do a marvellous job to look after people are also using remarkable acts of kindness to support people,

such as using their own mobile phones to connect very ill people in hospital with their relatives when their relatives cannot come to see them when they're very ill. I don't want to be too devil's advocate on this, but I guess people, Lucy, might well be asking, yeah, it all sounds lovely and well-intentioned, but I don't really understand what it means. What's the practical side of emphasising kindness this week? Well, we know what kindness is, is a genuine warm feeling for another person and demonstrating this with some sort of behaviour that the other person appreciates as kind. So that's a very important thing to be aware of. So it isn't just doing something because you think that would be a good thing to do. There needs to be this very positive, genuine impulse behind it.

And the survey we've done for this week does show that three quarters of people in society want society to be kinder after the pandemic. So we feel there is a very strong appetite for this and that it's not only about those individual acts of kindness which are so important to all of us and can be very very simple like calling somebody you know might be feeling lonely um we also want governments to be thinking about this and what values we are working to as a society what sort of society we want to create coming out of this but you can't once in a generation lifetime sorry once in ageneration opportunity to do this.

Right, but can you honestly legislate for kindness? We've seen other countries looking at this, and in Scotland they have a national performance framework that has kindness as a value. So it's about thinking about kindness when you are creating your policies. We talk about mental health in all policies approach, a whole government approach, thinking about what the impact of your policies are on the people that actually you're trying to help.

And kindness is an important part of this. It's interesting, we're quite comfortable talking more negatively about emotions, such as everyone will have heard of hate crimes. Let's flip that round as well and think, well, how can we be kinder? How can we enable individuals, communities, governments to be kinder? And interestingly, people also want politicians to be kinder. More than half the people in our survey said they want politicians to be kinder. Right. But Lucy, what they need to listen to.

Yeah, but Lucy, what do they mean by that? At the moment, the government is spending a great deal of public money, but there will be a time when it has to start hauling that money back. Now, some people are going to interpret that as being unkind, but on the other hand, it's just common sense, isn't it? What we need to think about is what do we value in New Zealand? They are now talking about a well-being economy. So as well as having their economic measures,

they are introducing measures about social connectedness, about what matters to people in their own lives. I think it was Robert Kennedy who said that gross domestic product measures everything except what really matters to people in their own lives. I think it was Robert Kennedy who said that gross domestic product measures everything except what really matters to people. We're saying this week that kindness matters and it needs to be taken seriously. Yes, that might be a challenge, but it's perfectly possible. It might take time, but again, it's possible. And this is a way in which maybe politicians can connect

more strongly with people and make their own worth more apparent. I don't know about you, but I was thinking the other day about how we might have approached the pandemic and lockdown 25 years ago, 30 years ago. And I don't think mental health would have featured much in the public conversation about it. But at least we have now got to a point where we're talking very seriously and very publicly about how we're faring mentally during the crisis. What do you think about that? I would agree with you. I've thought the same thing. I think many of us have thought the same thing. So this is a very, very positive development. And physical health is being talked about but so is mental health however we do need to make sure that we think about mental health as we develop our recovery

plans and that it isn't just something that's thought about during the pandemic but it's thought about afterwards and that we continue to think about it because it's it has been historically very far behind physical health. It is now catching up but that needs to be sustained and we can't rest on our laurels and say that all the work is done. So yes it's very positive but we need to take that further and make sure that there's a continuing impact. Thank you very much that's Lucy Thorpe who's head of policy at the charity the Mental Health Foundation. And certainly on Woman's Hour, we're going to be talking about different aspects of mental health during the lockdown throughout the course of this week. And as I say, this programme today is followed by a mental health minute just before the 11 o'clock news.

And I know there's a whole range of documentaries across BBC television and available on the iPlayer throughout the week as well. Your thoughts on that? Are we much more open about discussing mental health these days? You can always contact the programme. Also on the theme, tomorrow's Coronavirus Diary is going to be from a listener called Anne in Folkestone and she is a volunteer for the Samaritans. So very much looking forward to chatting to Anne on Woman's Hour tomorrow. Now, I mentioned that we were going to talk about the impact of all this on young people, particularly people in their 20s. Grim statistics from the Institute of Student Employers about employment prospects out today. Employers hiring 32% fewer people into apprenticeship programmes, graduate jobs cut by 12%, internships and placements down by 40%.

It is all predictably perhaps a bit grim. Jackie Adedeji is 26. She's a journalist, a columnist and a podcaster. She's currently furloughed and she's moved back in with her parents in London. So we'll talk to her and to Erin Bradshaw, 22, originally from Norwich, about to take her final exams in her fourth year at uni, and she has stayed around the university. She's living with her boyfriend in London. Jackie, tell me about life for you back home with the folks. Broadly speaking, how's it going? It's been really interesting. At first, I went straight into child mode. I'd come home, when I came home, I'd be like, mum, I'm hungry. And she's like, you're a grown woman, go and get your food. And I'm like, oh, because I just went straight into child mode. But actually, it's been,

it's had its ups and downs. There's moments where I'm like, really happy to be home. And then other times when I forget how annoying my mum and dad can be. My dad just opening my door, my dad peeing with the door open and I'm like, this is why I don't live here anymore. But it's been nice to spend time with my family and my sister actually got married on Zoom as well. So, yeah, it's been really nice to actually spend time with them. Right. I mean, it wasn't that long ago when a sentence like my sister got married on Zoom would have felt utterly ridiculous.

But now I kind of almost just went with it without really asking another question. But I am bound to say a few things about it. When was it? Did it go well? It was two weeks ago. And yeah, it went really, really well. It was like last minute. My mum was late and I was like, how are you late to a wedding when you're at home? But my mum was late.

But it was nice. We were all sort of on Zoom and we were all just watching her get married because we were supposed to go to Nigeria to see her get married and obviously my dad was gutted he couldn't hand her away but it was nice to just all be together and have a little bit of a laugh

and obviously meet her husband virtually Now you have been light-hearted about this but actually there is a practical tough side to being back with your parents again isn't there? There's bound to be Oh definitely especially because now I've actually been doing therapy since lockdown started to being back with your parents again, isn't there? There's bound to be. Oh, definitely. Especially because I've actually been doing therapy since lockdown started

and I've been doing it in the car because I can't have it in the house because my dad would just listen in on every conversation. So there's been moments where it's like, ah, I miss my privacy because I'm having to do stuff in the car or I'm having to take calls outside. And then my dad's like, it's my house.

I'm like, yeah, it's technically your house that's true um but um yeah I guess I just take each day as it comes really although it's you know there's tough moments it's just one of those things where you've just got to take the good with the bad and at least I have a home to go to that's how I kind of see it and I know that so many people will be thinking exactly that and at least your parents were happy to have you there and there's space for you so it's all really stuff to be grateful for. Yeah, exactly. I think they get there's been moments of my dad's like, oh, I want to get a contract for you guys. So I want to work out when you guys are leaving, because I think there's moments where he loves it. And then he's like, when are you leaving when there's no food?

But yeah, I'm actually enjoying it this well today. We'll see about tomorrow. Well, yeah, well, no, we can. It is really for all of us one day at a time at the moment. I'll come back to you, Jackie, but thank you. Erin, slightly different picture for you. You're actually with your boyfriend, but you're away from home. And I guess at the moment, that's not easy either. No, not at all.

And I would really like to go back at some point. But the worry at the moment is taking sort of anything back to my family now. Norwich has been relatively unaffected by coronavirus so coming from London to there is a bit of a worry. Now employment must be on your mind it is your final year at uni you've got a I'm sure you'll get a great degree you've studied French and German eminently employable in more ordinary circumstances. But what are you feeling about it all now? To be honest, quite terrified. I mean, I'm fine at the moment, but in a couple of weeks when my exams finish and I have to find something, I think that's when the worry is going to really kick in because the amount of jobs available at the moment seems to have just diminished hugely.

And there aren't the kind of stopgap jobs which you might normally do. So I can't get a job in a bar or a cafe while I look for something else. So there's more pressure on finding that sort of entry level job at a time when they aren't available. And who are you turning to for advice on all this? To be honest, I haven't spoken to that many people about it. I think the university does have a career service, which I imagine I will be looking to at some point for some help about what to do. But at the same time, it's a bit of an unprecedented situation. So I think there isn't a huge amount that lots of people can say. No, well, no, there isn't. It is unprecedented. You're right. What were your plans before all this? I was hoping to find a job, something to do with publishing or translation. And I still am. I'm still looking at those websites and that kind of thing.

But the amount of things which are being offered has just really decreased. And graduate schemes aren't being offered at the moment and that kind of thing. So I guess what does arise is going to be really competitive. And in terms of your academic career coming to an end, it won't be the end you've been hoping for either, will it? Not at all. So we're doing online exams at the moment, which is very strange. It's not really what we were working towards. It feels quite different doing them at home. And we also won't have a graduation. And that matters, actually, doesn't it?

Yeah, I mean, I didn't really realise before that I felt strongly about graduation. I thought it was all a bit silly and pompous. But when they suddenly say that it's not going to happen then I realised that yeah actually it was something I really wanted to do and I haven't had a chance to say goodbye to any of my lecturers or my friends from uni because one day it was just we were there and then the next we were all suddenly working from home. Yeah no it is tough. Jackie what do you think about that? Do you actually think it might be slightly easier to be you to at least have had a chance to establish a working life? Well, I feel like yes, but also because I've been furloughed, I've been able to use this time to do things that I usually wouldn't do. Because I guess when you're so busy with work, you don't really have that much time for yourself.

But now I've been furloughed, I've been able to, you know, bake more and read more and write more. And I've been doing poetry. So I've been kind of using this time to get to know myself better, I guess. But obviously, I'm not sure when I'll be going back to work. But hopefully soon. Yeah, I guess I suppose what I really meant was at least you've had some years in the workplace. You're relatively well established, although I appreciate that you're in a line of work as essentially as a journalist, where actually it's not the most stable of careers you've chosen anyway, is it really?

No, but I guess it's I guess being a journalist, you know that, you know, you're not always going to be secure. I guess that's that's part of the job, isn't it? And this is just the risk that we take to do what we do. But yeah, I am really lucky and grateful that I've been able to build a career in journalism. And obviously, hopefully, I can still use some contacts to get more work in the future. And have you had any contact, the company that's furloughed you, we don't want to go into too many details,

but are they keeping in touch and are they offering reassurance? Oh, definitely. They've been super supportive and always checking in on us and inviting us to quizzes. And so I still feel very much part of the team. I don't feel like I don't work there anymore. I still feel like they include us. And it's really nice because at the same time, you are kind of alone in a way. So it's nice that they actively try and still keep you involved in the company.

Yeah, no, I think that's a good thing. And I'm glad they're behaving that way. Erin, we were talking on this programme on Friday about the over 70s and about some of the challenges they've got. And also, of course, we should say that for young people who haven't had the chance to go to university, their job prospects are going to be, well, damaged as well. There's a lot of people upset at the moment. Who do you feel most sorry for, Erin? I mean, I personally always put myself first and then I worry about everybody else but uh what would you say um I do think that those

of us who are graduating this year or in the few years to come potentially are going to have a particularly hard time of establishing themselves um in the workplace um and of course for people over 70 as well they're in a particularly difficult position with being isolated. But I think what would be really good would be to have some kind of more intergenerational solidarity, because people in their 20s, we are, you know, socially distancing largely for the benefit of older people. Obviously, there are young people who will be badly affected by the virus, but we are doing it to a large extent for those who are older. So I think it would be good if at some point

that kind of solidarity could come from the older generation as well. So that could be in the form of rent holidays. I guess there are mortgage holidays at the moment, so if that could come down to renters, that would be great. And then supporting economic policies which benefit young people in the future coming out of this crisis as well. I think that's interesting. What would you say about that, Jackie? I would agree, actually, because even rent holidays, I'm still paying rent for my house in London, even though I'm not living there anymore.

And so it's hard because obviously we've been furloughed. We haven't got that much money and still we're still having to pay all this money for a house we don't live in. And obviously people are getting mortgage holidays. And I guess it's not fair for people in our generation because, yeah, the future doesn't look so bright. No, I mean, I don't want to. No, I'm afraid at the moment it doesn't. I don't want to get intergenerational beef going um but i think possibly erin you're you're making the case that there are a lot of people older people who have had um a good life in lots of ways and perhaps are now more resentful than you'd like them to be do you want to expand on that a little bit

well i guess we were talking about you had someone talking about kindness just before and we are sort of what we're doing at the moment is an act of kindness towards the older people and yeah I think it'd just be great if that could be reciprocated in kind of you know voting in ways or supporting policies which will benefit us in the future rather than I don't know I think lots of people feel like they've been somewhat thrown under a bus with what's happened with Brexit and various other things. So it'd be good if that could kind of, yeah, be a little bit reciprocated in some ways, I think. Well, thank you both very much indeed. That was Erin Bradshaw. You also heard from Jackie Adedeji, our thanks to them.

All sorts of views, of course. I guess everybody does think that they're having the hardest time of all. But it's not true, is it? Everybody at the moment is having a challenging time, to put it mildly. I've got some emails actually on the subject of students and being at uni. Hello, I'm 26 and I've always been really independent. After uni, I moved to London. I got a job. I saved enough money to buy a house. I felt really settled. But now I'm back with my parents. I work for a well-known bank in the back office. Everything I can do is online.

But moving back home to live in a small village, it's been a shock and I've been swinging from feeling so grateful for the time with my family to feeling very claustrophobic, just missing my old life and friends. I also worry about meeting someone new to date. The demographic here is a lot older, but also I'm not interested in breaking quarantine to meet someone to date or maintaining a pen pal over dating apps until we can meet.

I've been told I won't be back in the office until 2021. It feels like a wasted year of my life and I genuinely worry what this will mean for my chances to meet somebody and I'm losing valuable years. So sorry, that wasn't actually about uni, that was about life in your 20s. Thanks to that anonymous listener who says that they are 26. Well, I wouldn't rule out your chances of meeting your dream partner at the age of 26. That seems a bit pessimistic.

This is another listener. Rhianna, I'm 21. I go to university in the Netherlands, but due to COVID, I've left my studio in the city to come and live in my mum's attic in Bright COVID, I've left my studio in the city to come and live in my mum's attic in Brighton. I've been with my boyfriend for four years and we've been long distance now for 10 months. So while this isn't testing us, it's still really hard being in the same city, but not being able to see each other properly. In some ways, it is harder than

being apart. Mainly COVID has made me anxious about university and it's made it really difficult for me to focus on my studies. As well as academic worries, there's also sadness around not being at uni right now. I'm only in my first year and I do feel as though I'm missing out and losing closeness with my new friends there. So there you go, just a couple of experiences there.

Next Monday, the programme is going to be about pregnancy and having a baby, being a new mother in lockdown. Do tell us what that has been like for you or for your daughter or granddaughter or best mate, whatever it might be. We would love to hear from listeners and get your experiences for next Monday's programme. So email us via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. Being pregnant is never the easiest time in your life and about now I imagine it's pretty

tough actually and those early weeks are going to be quite a challenge for everybody in the mix. So let us know how you're getting on if you can. bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. This is next Monday's programme. We're going to be talking about this. Now, repeat attenders.

They are people who love a musical so much they go and they just keep on going. And not surprisingly, they are the subject of a documentary. I guess it was bound to happen sometime. Mark Dooley is the documentary maker who's made the film, Repeat Attenders. Gudrun Mangel, who features in the documentary, is a massive fan of Starlight Express. I'm going to talk to them both. It's great to have them on. Mark, good morning to you. How are you? Good morning, Jane. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. Now, you're in Australia now, is that right? I am, that's right, yes. Okay,

well, thank you very much for being with us. now is that right i am that's right yes okay well thank you very much for being with us we really appreciate it um you are not a repeat attender yourself but you're definitely a fan of musicals yeah it's it's a strange term in that i guess if you if anyone sees a show more than once you're a repeat attender but are you a super fan are you at that sort of extreme level uh i've probably seen the most I've probably seen one show is maybe eight to nine times. Which one was that? That was Wicked.

So it sort of has all those, it's a big spectacle, the great story and great music and sort of this big fantasy world. But I feel like I've seen it enough times now and I'm happy with where it's at. I don't get anything more out of it. So, you know, that's sort of the limit for me. Yeah, you've reached peak wicked. All right.

Exactly. Gudrun, I don't think you've never reached peak Starlight Express, have you? Oh, I didn't understand this question. All right. No, no, that was a stupid question. Forgive me. I think we'll start again.

Tell us why you love Starlight Express particularly. Oh, because I think at Starlight Express, I feel understood. I feel understood. You see, I watch this steam train locomotive and nobody believes in him. And he's fighting and he is winning against the muscle power of all these other narcissists in that play. Yes. And it gives me courage. I feel happy. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm going to come back to you, but we just need to play something from Starlight Express, don't we? Here we go.

Oh, you Have the power within you Just believe in yourself and see what part before you stop the rain

turn the tide if only you use the power within you need and Use the power within you

Need infect the world Turn around and help you If you draw on what you have within you Somewhere deep inside Oh, Gudrun, it's getting to me as well. When did you first see it? How old were you? Oh, itrun, it's getting to me as well. When did you first see it? How old were you? Oh, it was beautiful.

So, yes, I saw Starlight Express the first time in the year of 1988. I was 70 years old. Yes, I heard about the, at that time, brand new musical from a schoolmate. And at first I thought I would be not interested in this skate race. Oh no, we haven't lost Gudrun, have we? That would be a real shame. I think we might have done so. Mark, I'll go back to you and we'll definitely reattach the cables and we'll hear from Gudrun again. Don't worry. You're not. This is an affectionate film, isn't it? You're not mocking these people. No, not at all. I mean, it's it's really there's sort of two sides to it.

One one part is to celebrate these fans and what they do and the passion that they have for this thing. And then the other side of it is to show people that aren't so much into musicals or perhaps don't understand why these fans see shows multiple times and to show them the positive side to going to a musical. You know, as long as you're not hurting somebody else or yourself and you love this thing and it makes you happy. What is wrong with this hobby? It's such a positive, happy thing to do. So why shouldn't that be celebrated? Yeah. And yet it is one of those things that some people might mock. And I don't really understand why you'd mock that when you don't mock season ticket holders at obscure football clubs, for example. There's no difference, is there?

For sure. I mean, I guess the biggest difference is probably that some people dress up in costume and they cosplay or, you know, it's music that's not sort of popular music most of the time. So there's a curiosity, I guess, a quirkiness to this hobby that people don't understand. I do understand that level of shame that some people can have about musical theatre. If I'm stopped at the lights and belting out a power ballad from a show, I get a bit self-conscious about that. And really what the film is about is to stop people feeling like that. Who cares what you do? You love it. Sports people love their, you know, their team that they follow.

Yeah. So should you. Yeah. Gudrun, you do dress up, don't you? Who do you dress up as? Oh, I have many costumes. I have many costumes. It was from Rusty, Papa, Pearl, Dinah, each character.

So actually, you do them all. You must have a favourite, Gudrun, surely. Oh, she's gone again. That is frustrating. Welcome to the 21st century in London, Mark. I mean, everything's going really well here. Unfortunately, Gudrun lives in a smaller village in Germany, so I imagine the Wi-Fi is not so fantastic. Oh, well, we're not going to put the blame on Gudrun. I'm sure it's almost certainly the BBC's fault. We'll take it. Do you think actually there's a gender aspect to this? Are women more likely to be regular attenders based on what you know?

Certainly. I mean, the statistics and the data does say that the majority of theatre goers are female, but then a show might absolutely throw that statistic away, like the Book of Mormon, which skews predominantly male, and We Will Rock You or Rock of Ages. So it does, there is a huge attraction um for this hobby uh to women um but they will a lot of the time bring their partners with them you know and uh sort of introduce other people uh to to musicals that that aren't women um it's yeah i guess it's just

one of those hobbies that has that attraction. Yeah, I'm just going through the emails we've had on this. Valerie recommends Beautiful. That's the Carole King story. She's seen it three times, would have been four, except for lockdown. What do you think of the musicals about the life stories of stars? This is a relatively new phenomenon, isn't it? I've seen Beautiful myself, and that is a particularly good one.

Yeah, they're sort of typically known as jukebox musicals, which you would have a pre-existing catalogue of music that they draw upon and sort of, you know, trying to tap into that audience that loves that artist. Yeah, look, they serve a purpose. Some of them are beautifully done and tastefully done and some of them you can see are perhaps trying to make a bit of cash as quickly as possible. But yeah, a lot of them, a lot of these artists have fantastic stories. So yeah, worthy of a musical.

Yeah. You shouldn't forget that, of course, money does need to be made. And of course, no money is being made anywhere at the moment sadly um julia has emailed to say her favorite ever musical was anything goes um starring john barrowman um wonderful music by cole porter of course um what's this from linda absolutely loves uh west side story really caught my imagination ever since i've loved going to see musicals i've enjoyed many an Andrew Lloyd Webber production. Joseph Katz, Evita the Lot. And this from Jacqueline. Musical I've seen most is Avenue Q, maybe five times. Funny escapism. I think Gudrun can join us again. Gudrun, very briefly, if you didn't see Starlight Express, which show would you see instead? Before I met Starlight Express, I was a big fan of the Rocky Horror Picture Show. Oh, that was your favourite too. Okay. Yes, that's my favourite

too. The Rocky Horror Picture Show. All right. Thank you. Always dressed up. I bet. No, I can imagine you did. And I'm so glad that you found your safe space at Starlight Express and carry on going and carrying on enjoying it when lockdown ends. Thank you both very much. Thanks to you too, Mark. You can watch that repeat attenders documentary available now on Vimeo on demand. And I wanted to play a bit from Blood Brothers, but I don't think we've got time, have we? I'm just looking. We have got time. Oh, let's play. This is my favourite song from my favourite musical. This is Tell Me It's Not True.

Tell me it's Not True. Tell me it's not true Say I only dreamed it And morning will come soon Tell

me it's not true Say you didn't mean it In an ideal world, I'd just listen to the whole Blood Brothers soundtrack between now and about half eleven, and everyone would enjoy it, I'm sure. I think that was Barbara Dixon, wasn't it? And the whole cast of Blood Brothers and Tell Me It's Not True. That's the big song at the end.

Any more thoughts on musicals, any favourites of yours, you can contact the programme via email. Now, the comic industry has always attracted women, actually, despite the popular view that it's a world of muscle-bound male superheroes. Trina Robbins is a collector, she's an art historian and she was one of the pioneering women in the underground comic scene of the 60s and 70s. Now before lockdown Trina had helped to put together a new exhibition called Women in Comics

Looking Forward and Back in New York and she talked to me earlier from San Francisco. Hannah Berry is the UK's Comics Laureate. She's done a survey to find out who's contributing to the comic industry in Britain now and Charlotte May is a young up-and-coming illustrator. Trina explained why so many people still assume this comic world is dominated by men. You're not written about, you're forgotten. And when men have written the histories of comics, they have not written about women because they were not interested.

They were only interested in guys with thick necks and muscles punching each other out. But there have been women and not just, you know, oh I had to search and find one woman. I mean hundreds of women. Drawing comics, the earliest comic

I found by a woman was from 1896 and that's by Rose O'Neill who also created the QP. What was that cartoon? Oh it's charming it's it's in a magazine called Truth Magazine and it's called an old subscriber calls and there's um there's the pretty secretary working at her old-fashioned typewriter and there's the editor with the big mustache, and this guy comes in, and he says, are you the editor?

And he says, why, yes. And in the next panel, he's beating him up. He's beating up the editor, and he's saying, I'll get you for what you said to me. And then he beats him up a little more and then walks off. Look, you know, take that. Leaving the boss kind of sitting there on the floor with his head to his hand. And all this while

the secretary has been ducking under her desk and looking alarmed. Finally, the last panel, she helps the boss up and she says, Boy, that was bad for a minute. I thought he was going to cancel his subscription.

Right. Okay. So there's an... He's even funny. Yes. Yeah. Funny. Well, it stood the test of time.

When you first entered this world, Trina, honestly, how were you treated, would you say? How were you regarded? Badly. I was treated very badly. The guys considered me an enormous threat. We're talking about the very 1970s and the very early 70s. I was a second-wave feminist, and these guys were so threatened by feminism,

you can't believe. Every now and then word would get back to me about things they said. And at one time, it got back to me that as these guys saw me approaching, one of them said, here comes Trina, hide the knives. I mean, it's really ridiculous. What was it, do you think, about you that threatened them? Was it what you wanted to draw? Was it the issues you wanted to illustrate?

Was it just you? I think it bothered them that I was a woman and really not part of their old boys club. And it also bothered them that I was very outspoken and that I spoke up against the misogyny in those early underground comics. You know, the guys could basically draw whatever they wanted. They didn't have any code that they had to obey. And unfortunately, all too often, it seemed that what they wanted was drawing comics that featured women being humiliated, tortured, raped, murdered, all of it. Hannah, listening to that, people like you, I'm sure, would acknowledge that you owe women like Trina quite a lot.

It feels like an entirely different world to the one that I work in. I just can't believe the toxicity of the working environment that you've had to put up with Trina. It's just horrifying. And I've heard similar stories from women I know who work in comics, who have been working in comics for years and years, of things that they've had to put up with. It must have changed so i've been working in comics professionally since um 2005 and i've

never experienced anything like that i've never experienced anything that is that hateful and that atrocious and i and i i don't think i'm in the minority but i don't know if it's because i work in a certain area of comics where this is not this is not normal well you must be concerned enough to have done your survey about who actually is participating in comics these days absolutely because I I mean you hear about all these um the stories of how it used to be and looking around when I'm in in comic festivals and comic conventions I see a lot more parity a lot more gender parity and so I wanted to do this to conduct this survey to see who is actually making comics to find to get a sort of a an idea a census of who is making comics in the UK today and I think it's it's actually the the survey ends

tomorrow morning Tuesday at 10am so if anyone's listening and wants to wants to add their answers to the survey please do but um as of the Friday just gone, a few days ago, there were male 57% respondents, female 32% respondents, non-binary 7% identified in another way 2% and preferred not to say 2%. So there's actually a third of people making comics today are women, regardless of whether or not they are professionals or emerging, everyone who's making comics for public consumption. Well, one of those people is Charlotte May. Charlotte, what do you think when you hear

Trina's story of how it used to be? What do you make of it all? It's pretty horrific, isn't it? Like you, Hannah, I'm always shocked to hear those stories. And my experience, although I'm just kind of coming into the comics world, my background is as a painter and illustrator for sort of editorial and other commercial applications. And I've just written my first comic. So I don't think I've been as immersed in the comic world as you guys, although I consider myself a comic fan. Yeah, no, well, that's understandable. There's nothing wrong with it.

There's nothing wrong, by the way, with using your skills for commercial purposes. Do you think people are a bit snotty about that these days or perhaps they always have been? In the end, I need to make a living. So that's how I'm doing it. And luckily, it affords me the opportunity to be able to make art that I care about. And that's where we are now. And I've just made my first comic and it's been an amazing experience. Charlotte, I think people will need to know a bit about your comic. What is it called and how would you describe the style of the whole thing? My comic is called Pipette and dudley's charming dog adventure and it borrows from some of

the traditions of girly manga which is a japanese heritage of comics they've got a very long history in comic books um which have inspired lots of modern illustration and animation that we consume now in the west as well and part of what I wanted to do with it is make something which consciously approaches femininity in a way that interests me. The style is quite painterly because my background is as a painter and illustrator. Would you describe what you do as, it's whimsical more than anything else, isn't it? And I don't mean that in any way dismissively yeah not at all yeah that's a nice way of putting it um I I I like to take a

light-hearted approach to things and the style is certainly light-hearted but um while it can be a bit silly it also says what I want to say and has a kind of a deeper point as well. Thank you. Thank you very much, Charlotte. Hannah, why does it matter who's making comics? Well, I mean, I think it matters who's making comics in the same way that it matters who's making all art, especially at the moment. I think the plurality of voices, the need to have different people's lived experiences is fundamental. It just enriches the art form. And there's so much in comics to read.

There are so many different styles and different types of content for different people. There's something for everyone. And I think the more people who are making comics from different backgrounds and who have different experiences, the more there will be for more people to read. That's the voice of the UK's Comics Laureate, Hannah Berry. You also heard in that conversation from the artist and illustrator, Charlotte May, and from Trina Robbins, who is one of those pioneering women who was agitating back in the 60s and 70s and still a very powerful voice, as you heard in that conversation.

And she told me earlier that obviously it was half past 12 at night in San Francisco when I talked to her and she was in bed in leopard skin pyjamas. There we are. A little bit of extra detail for the podcasters. But obviously a phenomenal woman, So great to have her on the programme. Thank you to all the emailers today. Some really good ones. Thank you. I think we've got a bit of a vintage batch from you today. So we're very grateful. On the subject of kindness,

Christine says, being kind is not always doing what somebody wants or would prefer. We know it from our own family life. And in society, there's also the sense of having to work together and pull our weight to be fair and kind to each other. It isn't all about one person's viewpoint. A parent who never asks or insists the child helps in the home is a domestic slave, for example, and isn't doing that child any long-term favours. An adult who can't tie their own shoelaces has a problem, says Christine.

Yes, which is a sharp reminder to me to be perhaps a little less kind in that department at home and start asking other residents to do a shift. Janet says, I've been taking medication for many years for issues surrounding anxiety and depression. I'm grateful for the opportunity to have issues that affect me brought to the forefront. However, I am now feeling that I'm almost drowning in mental health discussion coming at me from every direction. I'm fully aware that this is a very personal point of view, but previously I was able to take my

medication daily and quietly and get on with my life. I now have to confront this issue on the radio and on television and in general media on a daily basis, which ironically is proving to increase my anxiety. Well, there you go. That's what I meant about there being some interesting takes around this morning. So, Janet, thank you for that. Bernadette says, I welcome the modern approach to much more openness about mental illness, but I do feel that talk is cheap.

What is needed is actually a properly resourced service. Well, in fairness, that was something that Lucy Thorpe did reference in the conversation. To go on with Bernadette's email, underfunding results in poor training and fewer professionals on the ground.

In my experience, the excellent professionals are put under stress because of overwork. When they're off on sick leave, the service deteriorates and people who are ill suffer. Talking has got to be accompanied with listening and acting on what is said. At times, I think the so-called professionals were absent when the how to listen class was held. Maybe the same can be said for policymakers and for politicians. Now to the conversation that we had about people in their 20s, I knew this would get people going. And to those who think that it was unfair, please just a reminder that Friday's programme was all about people in their 70s and their adult children dealing with some of the complications of life right now.

Liz says, just listening to the programme and how the young are sacrificing their lives for the over 70s, well, I am one of the over 70s and I've spent the last five weeks sewing masks and scrubs for our local scrubs hub. I know I'm not the only one. Don't lump us all together as takers and not givers. I love the programme, she says, as I sew along. Liz, well done on your work and I'm glad you're enjoying our company.

Another listener, I object to the statement that we only care about ourselves, all of us. There are many of my generation, 70 plus, who deeply regret the legacy that is being left to young people and that is being exacerbated by COVID. They will clearly suffer more than many older people in terms of job prospects, inability to pay rent, inequality and the added problems that might be caused by Brexit. Please don't exacerbate intergenerational issues. Well, Felicity, I was probably being a bit fatuous when I said that we all think of ourselves.

I mean, I was talking about myself and it was in semi-jokey fashion. Although I think like most broadcasters, I do fundamentally think I am the most important thing about the planet, really. OK, that was the view expressed by Erin. the rent and the idea that isolation is only being done for the benefit of older people come on read the news okay um that was the view expressed by erin and just to say again we did talk about the over 70s and older on friday's program and erin is somebody she's 22 and uh you know how much social history do any of us know at 22 about what our grandmothers and our grandfathers went through probably i would suggest not a great deal i'm not saying that's right but it's probably a fact do any of us know at 22 about what our grandmothers and our grandfathers went through? Probably, I would suggest, not a great deal. I'm not saying that's right, but it's probably a fact, isn't it? Good to hear from a student in her final year, says Ben, but why didn't you raise the issue of student loans? Many students are building up debt for what? Furthermore, a large number are

paying rent for private accommodation they're not even using. Ben, you're quite right, and I should have mentioned it. So, mea culpa there. This from a listener who says, you were just talking about the elderly versus the young and not in a healthy way. How many elderly are helping financially with their grandchildren? That's a good point. A considerable number, I observe, and big time,

especially those going to university. Well, that is a good point. Well made by that listener. Thank you very much for that. Let's talk about musicals just because we can. There are lots of support for my passionate belief that Blood Brothers is the best musical of all. I'm just looking for some. Hang on.

This is the thrilling sound of my computer mouse. Catherine says, I love Blood Brothers. Such a good show. It came to the theatre where I was an usher so I had the pleasure of seeing it several times. Watching the audience members sob at the end never failed to give me a lump in my

throat. Yes and there's another one here from Sarah I cannot thank you enough for playing Tell Me It's Not True from Blood Brothers. I was listening to the programme while cleaning the kitchen and as soon as I heard it, my heart skipped a beat and it took me back to the 15-year-old girl I was

when I first saw it in the West End of London. It's my absolute favourite musical ever. I must have seen it six times, if not more, taking any opportunity to introduce it to anybody I know. And since becoming a mother, I often think of that heartbreaking final scene and the poor mother. Sarah, I'm glad we made your day by putting that little track into the programme. I thought we'd run out of time, but in fact, we hadn't, which I'm delighted by.

I think the reason I loved it was I grew up in Liverpool and obviously it's set in Liverpool. And I saw it on its second night, I think its second night at the Liverpool Playhouse with my mum, actually. I remember that and yeah, you're right. It just, it really gets you. Linda says, I'd like to join in and say I have seen Blood Brothers 17 times in England

and in Australia, says Linda. This is from Eileen. I don't consider myself, Jane, a repeat offender, but I have seen Les Mis 12 times. Well, I mean, I think that does make you one. No shame in it. It is the most thrilling, fulfilling production I've ever seen on stage. And from the moment I sit down in my seat to the very last note, I am filled with the excitement that emanates from the stage. It fills me with dread that there's a possibility that theatres may never recover No, you will. We will be back to normal eventually.

And maybe not even that eventually, but it's going to happen. I refuse to believe that we won't be back in theatres, thrilling to musicals. And I'll give the final word to Jill, who says, I saw My Fair Lady in London four times with Rex Harrison and Julie Andrews. Now, that is that's a that's a proper theatrical memory, isn't it? Thank you very much for that, Jill. And I'm glad it made such an impression on you and obviously continues to give you pleasure and bring back happy memories. We are back tomorrow with the programme and the podcast. And tomorrow we're going to be talking about gardening and those people who may have turned to it for the first time as a sort of therapy in lockdown. So that's one of our subjects tomorrow. We'll also be getting another coronavirus diary from a Samaritans volunteer. My thanks to everybody who's come in today, to Anna and to

Helena and to Nigel and to Jane, who've made this edition of Woman's Hour possible. And thanks to you for listening. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.