Woman's Hour - Returning to your childhood bedroom at Christmas, Iranian dolls, Lilia Giugni

Episode Date: December 22, 2022

Over the festive period, many people will be returning to stay in the home they grew up in. But when is the right time to clear out a childhood bedroom after its occupants have left home? Should you turn it into a study, pottery studio, or holiday rental the moment the kids have stepped out the door? Or preserve it as a shrine filled with old A Level notes, soft toys, and 90s posters? The protests in Iran are now entering their fourth month with no sign of abating. They were sparked by the death of Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old who died in custody after being detained by morality police. But Woman's Hour has been in touch with one group of women who are rebelling in a quieter way, with the revival of a simple but ancient tradition. The tradition of making handmade dolls to pass from generation to generation. It's therapeutic, but still proving to be a small but powerful act of defiance. Tanaz Assefi, an artist originally from Iran, is in touch with a woman inside the country who's been travelling around towns and villages collecting handmade dolls. How have women been affected by the digital revolution of the last 30 years? Lilia Giugni will be joining Krupa Padhy to talk about her book "Threat: Why Digital Capitalism is Sexist and How to Resist". Plus the latest on the progress of the Scottish Gender Recognition Reform Bill. And one day after excluding women from university, we find out more about reports that the Taliban have banned girls from primary schools, effectively instituting a total ban on education for women and girls. Presenter Krupa Padhy Producer Clare Walker.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, good to have your company this morning. The holidays are upon us and many of you will be going back to your childhood homes or getting ready to welcome home the kids who have flown the nest. We're keen to know what's happened to your childhood bedroom. Does it look the same, a shrine to your younger years? Or is it completely revamped?

What have your parents or those who raised you done with the space? Maybe it's an office or a gym. I can share that mine is very much what it was when I left home a couple of decades ago. The Brian Adams CDs, they are still on the shelves. The Bollywood cassettes, they are still in old ice cream tubs. And my high school blazer is still in the cupboard. What about you? Do text us 84844.

We are on the handle at BBC Women's Hour over on social media. You can email us via our website or send us an audio message via WhatsApp. That number is 03700 100 444. I do look forward to hearing from you. We here on Women's Hour often talk about the dangers that women can face in digital spaces. We are going to take a closer look at this with the author of a new book who explores the digital revolution over the past 30 years and its impact on women around the world at all levels, from those working on the assembly line with limited online access themselves to the consumers and daily users of these various platforms.

And yesterday, we reported on the Taliban banning university education for women, this after they had already excluded girls from most secondary schools over the past 16 months. And we've now heard reports that girls at primary schools will also be stopped from attending. And this would mean a total ban on education there for women and girls. We're going to get some clarity on this shortly. But we begin with another developing story that we are watching closely. The final vote on proposals to the Gender Recognition Bill in the Scottish Parliament will be held later in the day. The vote on the legislation had been due to take place on Wednesday,

but MSPs continued to vote on and debate more than 150 amendments into the early hours of this morning. The bill is designed to make it easier for trans people to legally change their recognised gender, but critics fear that the changes will infringe on women-only spaces. Lauren Moss is the BBC's LGBT and identity correspondent. She's following this story and joins me now. Good to have you with us, Lauren. Can we go right back to basics on this? Because at the heart of this is a document that legally recognises a change to someone's gender. Explain that to us. Good morning. Yeah, so like you say, the bill is about changing the process that people go through to obtain a gender recognition certificate or to change what

is their legal sex on their birth certificate. So the bill is proposing for Scottish nationals and those defined as ordinarily resident in Scotland to lower the age that people can apply for one of these from the age of 18 to 16. Now, what they're also proposing is that there won't be a requirement, as there is at the moment in the UK, for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria. And that's the sense of unease when a person's gender identity is different to that of their biological sex. Applicants won't need to live in what's called their acquired gender for two years before applying. Instead, it will be three months or six months if the applicant is 16 or 17 years old.

And there'll be a three month reflection period before it becomes final. Now, the Scottish ministers have said all along for a number of years that they're doing this. They've been consulting on this and they've put this bill forward to to simplify the process of what they've called for trans people to remove the medicalisation of it. And what's been described by some trans supporting groups and MSPs, the bureaucratic and demeaning process to end that. Now, there are 30 gender recognition certificates issued every year in Scotland at the minute, and it's predicted that if and when this bill gets voted through, it could lead to around 250 to 300 certificates issued a year. And that's similar to what we see in the Republic of Ireland, which introduced a similar system in 2015. So some very significant changes on the table there,

and we were expecting it to be passed last night. What happened? Yeah, there have been two days of debates on this. It's gone on much longer than was initially scheduled. But given the huge number of amendments, like you were saying, it's probably not that surprising it has gone on this long. I mean, on Tuesday night, the sitting only ended when the lights automatically turned off in the chamber on the politicians at midnight. And then last night, it finished after one o'clock in the morning. So there are 150 amendments, some of them were about keeping the age at 18. Others, which are more controversial were around how to prevent people fraudulently applying for a gender recognition certificate. And there was one

particular, a couple of particular amendments, which caused the session to be halted on Tuesday. There were angry scenes in the public gallery as it was voted down by five votes. And that was an amendment to prevent anyone with a criminal record of sexual offences to be able to apply for a gender recognition certificate. Instead, what was voted through was an amendment that was tabled by the SNP, Gillian Martin and Conservative Jamie Green. So a cross-party amendment, really, that would mean authorities would then check applications from sex offenders on a case-by-case risk assessment basis. And really one of the reasons this bill is so complicated is that the Scottish Parliament can pass legislation on gender recognition that affects Scotland only, but if it starts to blur the lines with laws elsewhere in the UK,

that won't be able to pass. And it was said that a blanket ban on applications from people with a history of sexual offences would infringe on other bills and rights. And so the Scottish ministers said this was the best way to put safeguarding in place. OK, well, let's unpick some of that. First of all, again, going back slightly, because it is so important to remind our listeners of the context surrounding this. Why were these changes put forward by the Scottish government in the first place?

Well, this bill has raised a lot of issues around women's rights, access to single sex spaces, who is able to legally define as a woman and what that means. And I think we've seen over the last few days, you know, all of the protests outside, the huge debate inside. Over the last few months, we've seen very high profile public figures like JK Rowling and others describing the bill and the First Minister Nicola Sturgeon as a destroyer of women's rights. Now, Nicola Sturgeon and other Scottish ministers say the bill will not impact the Equality Act in any way on women's rights. And they say it's about streamlining a process for self-identification around somebody's legal sex that other countries like Ireland, Belgium and Denmark have, and Argentina have been doing since 2012. But others feel differently. And

I think that the clearest way of seeing just how divisive this matter is, is that, you know, and Denmark have and Argentina have been doing since 2012. But others feel differently. And I think that the clearest way of seeing just how divisive this matter is, is that, you know, even human rights experts can't agree either. Last month, the Special Rapporteur for Violence Against Women and Girls said that these proposals could open the door for violent males who identify as men to abuse the process. And she wasn't satisfied with the safeguarding measures Scotland was proposing. But then just last satisfied with the safeguarding measures Scotland was proposing. But then just last week, the UN's expert on protection against violence around sexual orientation and gender identity described self-ID as a fundamental part of a person's free

will and said that people who are transgender are among the most vilified, disenfranchised and stigmatized people on the planet. So that is why it's causing so much controversy because people that are in the UN ordinarily referred to as experts and their opinion really matters. You know, they're effectively those voices are counselling each other out because the voices and the shouting is so loud around this. Lauren, are we assuming that this will pass later in the day? Yes, I mean, despite all of the debates and the amendments that have been tabled, it has pretty much gone through, described as unscathed, really.

And although there was the biggest rebellion that's been seen among SNPs, it is pretty much likely to pass. I think the vote on that now is scheduled for around 2.45 this afternoon. Like you said, it should have been taking place yesterday. But I think what is key to note is really how what people will be looking at is how this bill will interact with the Equality Act and the increase in people that will be protected under the characteristics of sex as well as gender reassignment.

And what steps the UK government might take, because it's not known yet whether these certificates will be recognised in the UK, whether the UK government will contest them, whether they might take action to block the legislation going through, whether there might be another court case launched from another party to stop it going through. So even though this vote is going ahead today, I think at this stage, there are more questions than answers about what it means for the wider UK and what it means as well for people that do obtain these certificates and those that may want to, but can't because they're not eligible because they live in England or Wales or Northern Ireland. And what might happen there and how that will also affect women's rights under the Equality Act.

And some people are still very, very unhappy about that today. There seem to be a lot of questions and not many answers at the moment on this. And I'm sure this will become clearer as these debates and conversations continue. But just developing on what you just said there about uk wide rules and how they differ i mean practically speaking you know if in the coming days someone is given this certificate in scotland and which which legally recognizes this change in their gender they then move to england a few weeks later i mean would this certificate be valid what does it practically mean for them potentially?

Well, I think the first thing to point out is that even if this bill goes through this afternoon, as it's widely expected to, it won't receive royal assent for at least a month. And in that space of time, the UK government's first job, one of the first jobs on the in-tray in 2023 will be to decide what action they're going to take and whether they will accept these certificates. Because at the moment, there are a list of countries which have gender recognition processes, which are accepted in the UK without any of the medical diagnosis that is currently in place. And some of those countries have a system similar to what Scotland's proposing around self-ID. So they'll need to decide whether they're going to continue in that vein, whether they're going to readdress that list, whether they might re-amend the Gender Recognition Act for the rest of the UK, or whether they might try and block it through the courts. So at this stage, simply, we don't know whether these certificates will be recognised in England. And it isn't a case that somebody will be able to apply, say, between Christmas and New Year if this gets voted through.

We're talking about a month before it receives royal assent. And then we're talking about many more months while the bill is picked over and decisions are made about how exactly it will be implemented. It's even though it's been Scottish ministers will tell you it's been a long time coming to get it to this stage in Parliament today, it's by no means over. And I think we'll be talking about this for many more weeks to come in the new year. And no doubt we'll be hearing from you a lot more across the course of the day in the hours, in the coming hours, as we await the outcome of that debate. But for now, Lauren Moss, thank you so much for your expertise there. Now, over the festive period, many people will be returning to stay in the home that they grew up in. But will you be going back to a perfectly preserved adolescent bedroom or have the 90s posters and shelves of CDs since been stripped away to create a study, a pottery studio or a holiday rental. And parents and carers, have your children let you reclaim their old bedrooms

or do they insist on it remaining as a shrine to their youth? Do get in touch and let us know. Many of you have been doing exactly that and I am going to bring in some of those comments in a moment. But I'm joined now by the journalist Antonia Hoyle who at 44 years of age has finally started to clear out the teenage bedroom which has so far remained untouched since she moved out of her parents' house 25 years ago.

Also with us is the writer Marion McGildery, who converted three bedrooms as each of her four children moved away, only to find them at various points each moved back again. Welcome to both of you. Hi. Hi. Antonia, let me start with you. It's been 25 years since you moved out of your parents' house. Why only now is this teenage bedroom going? I think I wrote about this a couple of months ago in the Daily Mail and sort of shot myself

in the foot because my parents have gently asked me to clear out my room every so often every few years for the past couple of decades but they escalated their pleas after this article came out and actually last week my dad dumped a big box of my belongings at my house and said that there's more to come. So there was no waiting for you to go back to the house to box them up yourselves. They have arrived on your doorstep. Well, I did say after I wrote the piece, I said, I promise, I promise I'm going to clear it out now. Because it was when I went back to see what exactly was in there for the article. I hadn't realised there was quite so much stuff.

I said, I promise I'm going to clear it out now. But I still haven't. And when you went home to research this article, what kind of things did you have in there? Oh, my gosh, everything. Things that just scream the 1990s, like Body Shop, Moonflower, Body Lotion. White Musk, Body Shop is what I used to have. Yes.

Yes, yes. Yes, that was so popular. And mixed cassettes, my school reports, my clarinet. I don't even have a cassette player. I don't know why I need a cassette player. I've still got the cassettes as well. Marion, let me bring you in here because you are the exact opposite. You converted each of your children's bedrooms immediately after they moved out.

Why did you not want to keep everything as it was well with four kids in a rather small house um space was a premium so when the first one moved out I kind of thought oh my goodness I've got a spare room I can have a get I mean imagine your child leaves and you you turn her room into a guest room suddenly she's a guest oh and it was it was that feeling of finally having some space in the house that we could kind of stretch out in it was gorgeous so for you it was about reclaiming the space we've had this message in from bill who writes it's not the parents it's the kids a friend's son hasn't lived at his parents for eight years but he was angry when they cleared out his room and redecorated it for storage.

It's the same with ours. They go mad if we chuck away their stuff. Marion, how did your kids feel when you decided within moments to reclaim the space? They never told me, but in retrospect, I shouldn't have done it because, you know, it was a bit like erasing them, which I wasn't trying to do. Although subconsciously, it may have been that I was trying to comfort myself because my babies were leaving the nest. You know, you don't want to walk into these empty rooms that were once full of kids and noise and music. And yeah, and it's hard. It's hurtful when your kids leave home. I mean, it's like a kind of bereavement. And so I try to fill that space by saying, oh, they've gone.

Oh, happy life. Yes. I mean, I think that's a feeling that so many of our listeners can relate to this message in. I didn't wait for my daughter to leave home. As soon as we had dropped her off at university, we gutted it. It was in a shocking state. Another one writes, I no longer had a childhood bedroom the week after I left home as there were three other growing girls in our three bedroom home. When I came home from college, I slept on the sofa. Many of us grew up in tiny houses where an empty bedroom was never an option. And this one writes, my mother began

redecorating my childhood home before I had even moved out my belongings. But of course, times have changed, but we're talking about limited spaces. Families are smaller. Antonia, you now have a daughter of your own. I mean, does she ask if she can hang on to sentimental items as you did?

She does. She wants to keep everything. Her first pair of shoes. And I've always said to her, no, it's bad to clutter. And then suddenly I realised I was being completely hypocritical. I felt mortified. So, yes, I've done the exact opposite and there's no excuse, really. But it does make me feel that I have a tie to my past and it is quite difficult to think that that will go when I clear my room. I mean why do you think these childhood bedrooms and possessions are so important to us? Well I think when you're a teenager your room is your sanctuary it's where

you first form your sense of identity it's where you develop your sense of self so it's it's it's your only space i mean the rest of the house isn't isn't yours you don't know who you are in the outside world so much so it's where you form who you are marion well i i'm 65 so i grew up in a time without central heating when your bedroom was not your sanctuary it was that you jumped into bed in three seconds flat before the frost got you. And I didn't have stuff. You know, I mean, I wasn't deprived or anything. I had a few books.

I didn't have stuff. I didn't have CDs or a record player or any of the stuff that our kids have now. Yeah, I had books, and I took them all with me when I left at 17 and never lived there again and my bedroom remained the same but with none of my stuff in it because I didn't leave anything and that's such an important conversation to have the amount of stuff we own it's changed it's grown but yet we're also having these conversations about being minimalist and you talk about books there I only had one book.

I used to go to the library and rent them out. And it's something that my own kids don't do anymore. I mean, times really have changed. Yeah, that's true. And I was the same. I had a few books, but everything came from the library. And my childhood toys were few and far between and had belonged to my sister who's 15 years older than me yeah we just you know it just wasn't it wasn't the thing you know Christmas I got socks for god's

sake socks and vests not like today yeah we shower our kids with stuff. Antonia I'm keen to understand the conversations you've had with your dad as you've been clearing out these things well he actually just wrote me a note he said um sorry more to come um but they actually since in the last couple of months they have repainted and um put a new carpet in but one of the things that was most sentimental to me was my martin luther king poster um because i was fascinated with civil rights when I was growing up and they've put the poster back on the wall and they've kept that I love and they do say that it is still my room and I know I sound really spoiled by the way I'm not here to defend myself but it is it is an attachment that I really feel. I and I think that's that that is really important

I mean my my bedroom remains very much as it was when I left home. And now it's my own daughter who goes and camps there whenever she crashes at my parents. So there is a connection, a generational connection as well, which I'm sure you want to share with your with your daughter. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, she loves she loves my childhood bedroom as well. And it's somewhere where I go and I feel that all the responsibilities of motherhood and middle age, they just sort of disappear. And it's like entering a bit of a 90s time warp where I don't have any of those pressures. And I don't know, I just feel really calm in there. Yeah, I want to share this message. My parents have sold the house I grew up in. We have since learned that the new occupants have turned my childhood bedroom into their house rabbit's bedroom. Marian, what have you done with each of those rooms? With a bed, you know, there's still a bed there for them and a study and the guest room. But then they all came back again.

And one came back with a wife and lived with me for several years. And then we moved. Don't get me wrong, my attic is full of their stuff. I mean, to this day, I've still got dolls in the attic belonging to my youngest. And I threw a few out the other day and she said, where's Sookie? What will I say? Anyway, I got through it. I hope she's not listening. Sookie's gone. But what was that like when you had cleared out this space?

You're reclaiming your space, you're reclaiming your identity. And then your kids moved back home. in your case with a partner with a partner and and with all the um the entitlement of an adult but uh treating the house like it's like they're still kids you know so it was it was kind of tough I mean I never had a crossword with my daughter-in-law. But it was strange that, you know, you think you've got your space back and suddenly you've got washing up in the sink and nobody is taking care of your guest room. They're dumping their stuff in it.

And am I right in thinking you are now in one of those reclaimed rooms? Well, no, I moved house. I moved house. The attic is still full of their stuff because none of them take it with them. But then my son, who's been abroad, he came back with a dog. Right. And now he's in my bedroom. Same watch you're flying the nest. Yeah, and I'm sleeping in the sewing room. Right. And now he's in my bedroom. Same watch you fly in the nest.

Yeah, and I'm sleeping in the sewing room. Right. Okay. Putting it to good use. Oh, yeah. Well, I thought I won't get to sew otherwise. So I thought I'll sleep in the sewing room. You have my room.

And the dog basically has taken over the house. Other people have grandchildren. I've got a dog the size of a pony can I ask what is um to both of you really your most prized possession that will not be leaving the house that will be staying with you oh gosh um for me it's the postcards and and as postcards letters from friends and exes, poems from from my mum. And I can't throw them away. I just can't. And it's also so different now because we don't have any of that stuff. But in a pre-digital era, it just really made me realise how much how differently we communicated.

And I just can't throw them away. The letters and the books and the scribbles between friends at schools, you know, when you were trying to whisper something in their ear. Marion? Well, to be honest, I'm in a, I mean, I am 65. I hope I've got a long life ahead of me. But frankly, I'm looking at it the other way. I look around my house and think, why have I got all this stuff?

I have to start getting rid of it. Because I don't want to leave it for them when I pop off. But actually, it would be revenge in a way, wouldn't it? That's quite the term, yes. Keep gathering, keep piling it up. Well, listen, to both of you, thank you so much for being so honest about the ins and outs of your homes, quite literally.

Antonia and Marion, very good to have you here on the programme. And to all of our listeners, please do keep sending your messages in. I will try and read out a few more as we go along through the programme. Now, one day after excluding women from university, it's now been reported that the Taliban have banned girls from primary schools, effectively instituting a total ban on education for women and girls. The Times and Wall Street Journal have reported that the decision was made in a meeting between clerics, community leaders and Taliban officials.

However, there hasn't been an official announcement yet from the Taliban. To find out more, I spoke to the BBC journalist Zarguna Kargar shortly before we came on air. And I began by asking her what she has heard about these reports. Yeah, I read the Wall Street Journal report about this meeting. But I also checked with my friends and family in Kabul this morning. They haven't heard anything official, like an official statement from the Taliban that primary schools are banned or teachers are not allowed to come to schools,

to primary schools. So there hasn't been any official confirmation or statement by the Taliban about this latest announcement. But there are reports that there has been a meeting yesterday evening between the higher education minister and other clerics of the Taliban government. But we don't know the details. So just so I'm clear, no official line or statement from the Taliban but there have been reports of talks between the Taliban and clerics. And what do we know about those talks between the two, if anything? Yeah, those talks, according to Wall Street Journal,

there has been like talks about shutting down every official education for girls and ban on women who are teaching at schools, female teachers. So there has been like these kind of rumors, you would say, or some reports, but no details confirmed yet. Okay. And certainly not from those that you've been speaking to in Kabul and your relatives and friends and family there. But the very fact, Zarghuna, that there are conversations taking place potentially at those higher levels of a total ban on the education of girls and women is acutely worrying on so many levels. Very, very worrying and actually heartbreaking for us Afghans. I am an Afghan woman.

I have a little girl. And if I hear she's not allowed to go to school today, for example, I will be like, I'll be doing everything in my power to do to just change that. So I can imagine the feeling of those parents, those little girls, just because they are girls. But it is not shocking or it is not surprising because Afghans have experienced the Taliban in 1990s. In 1996, when they came, there was no official education for girls and women. All girls were banned from school. And that was one of the reasons that my parents left the country.

Because I'm from a family of girls and we just left because there was no future for us. So it is not shocking, but in the meantime, very heartbreaking because we are still recovering from the news of Tuesday about closure of university for young women. So that hasn't even been digested that you hear news reports like this. It is just devastating for every Afghan I know. Yes. And from your lived experiences that you talk about there, do you feel, therefore, that this ban may come into place in the coming weeks if these talks are beginning to take place? Yes, I won't be surprised. This is what the Taliban are about. And the people were a bit optimistic at the beginning when they took power and they promised equal rights for

women and girls but they always always mentioned according to sharia and their interpretation of sharia is that girls should not be learning at school girls are for home women are for home they should be cooking and making family that's it that's what the duty of women in their view is. And that is a view widespread among the Taliban. There are elements who are pro-education, who are believing that there should be equal rights in terms of education for women. But we have seen systematic removal of women from the society since they have taken power in the last year.

For example, secondary school, we know, we have repeatedly reported about that. Now university ban, women banned from going to parks, women banned from going to gym, women not allowed to travel long distances without a male guardian. This is what their policy was in 1996. And also recently they did these local judicial killings, basically like they invite people. Last month there was a woman stoned in Farah province. There were two people hanged publicly

while public was invited to watch and learn from that. So that's what they did, like cutting hands in public if someone was accused of theft. So this is what the Taliban are about. And it won't be surprising that we will hear that no girls will be allowed to go to school. And that is so very sad and worrying to hear. With regards to women being removed from the face of society that you talk about there, I'm interested to learn from you about women in the workplace, because I know that they've been largely banned from there as well,

except the medical sector, as I understand it. But what about female teachers? Yes, if they decide, there have been female teachers in schools at the moment. So in primary schools, a lot of female teachers. And that was one sector, apart from the medical staff that were allowed to work. And there are other women in some government offices

like security checks or like passport office where there's a close contact between women. So they can't deny that kind of jobs. But most women are at home, women who worked for ministries, women who worked in government officials like as admin staff. Those women are not allowed to go to work. And if they ban teachers from working, this is going to be a huge blow, economic blow, mental blow, you call it physical blow,

whatever you can imagine that restricts you and makes you feel suffocated, that is happening to Afghan women. Well, we'll wait and see what happens in the coming days and weeks with that conversation about banning girls from attending primary school. But on a very personal level, Sarguna, could I ask you about your communications with women inside Afghanistan

since the Taliban came back into power? How easy has it been to have open and frank conversations with your loved ones back home? Conversations, WhatsApp has made it very, very easy. It is, but on an emotional level, I must say, Krupa, it is heartbreaking every time you speak. So much freedom has been taken from them. So much is lost.

There's such grave poverty in Afghanistan. You hear about devastating stories every day. I speak to my loved ones, my friends in Kabul, and also remember so many of the people I knew, my friends, like highly educated people with vision and dreams, they left. They're still living in exile. Some still live in hotels in other countries because their asylum case has not been approved. So on both levels, whether they have left or they have stayed, it is a very, very hard time, very, very dark time, I would say, for Afghans. Always so helpful to get the insights there of my colleague, Zarguna Kargar, and we will keep an eye on that story as it develops. Now, how have women been impacted by the digital revolution of the last 30 years? That's a question my next guest has been asking.

She's been exploring the stories of women from across that digital divide, those who can participate and those who are left out, those who have been harmed as the users of online technology and those who are paid peanuts to assemble the smartphones and tablets that we use. Lili Adjuni is author of a book called Threat, Why Digital Capitalism is Sexist and How to Resist. And she joins me now. Very good to have you with us. Hi, Krupa. Hey, everyone.

It is truly, truly lovely to be with you all today. The human stories that you share, they are at the heart of the messages in your book. And you begin with the devastating stories of Carolina and Tian Yu, who come really from opposite ends of that digital divide, but they're linked by those same power relations. Talk us through that. Absolutely.

Yeah, I would say in so many ways, my book is a book based on stories, stories of women who differ widely from one another in terms of race, of class, of know, stories of women who differ widely from one another in terms of race, of class, of sexuality, of geographical background, but they all have at least one thing in common, and that is having paid a very heavy price for the digital revolution. So yeah, Carolina and Tianyu are two of the women with stories I tell, and two of the most unlucky, I would say. Carolina was a 14 years old Italian girl

who exactly 10 years ago went to a party where she drank a bit too much vodka as it happens so she fainted in a toilet and sadly a few of her schoolmates molested her while she was unconscious. Also they filmed themselves with their smartphones and the day after they shared online videos of that evening. So some photographs, as sadly happens very often, went viral on social media. And for months, Carolina was literally tormented by social media insults from strangers and failed to obtain the removal of these images.

And so eventually, devastated, she threw herself out of her bedroom's window. Now, Tianyu, on the other hand, as you say, had a completely different story, completely different background. She was not from Italy, brought from China. However, she also threw herself one of the Chinese factory where she worked under, I dare say, Dickensian conditions to produce smartphones such as those that we all use, such as those used by Carolina's persecutors. Now, thankfully, you did survive the fall, but she remains today paralyzed to the waist down. And I think her story, you know, as you said at the beginning, truly complements that of Carolina. I feel they represent two faces of the same problem. And that problem is

the truly oppressive embrace between patriarchy and digital capitalism, and its implications for all women worldwide on both sides of the screen. It certainly makes you think about things in a different framework, really, when you hear devastating stories like those of Carolina and Tian Yu, but also high profile women like the Labour MP Jess Phillips, who you've also spoken about. and about other female politicians, activists, professionals were all very violently targeted on the internet globally. I do feel that Jess's story is particularly worth telling for many reasons. First of all, the level of digital violence that Jess attracts is frankly astonishing. A few years ago, for example, in one night only,

she received over 600 messages that all explicitly threatened her a break, some of which truly horrifyingly graphic. I think another crucial fact is that in Jess's case, online and offline violence intersect. A few years ago, in fact, a man was arrested for trying to assault Jess outside her office. And he explained that he had acted because of things he had read about Jess Phillips MP on the internet. In the book, however, I also say that we urgently need to look at the economic mechanism that hide behind online abuse against women such as Jess. Because, you know, it seems to me that as a society, in the last few years, we finally started to recognize

that online misogyny and digital violence against women are serious problems. However, I would say that we still tend to mostly focus in our public debates on individual perpetrators. So we ask ourselves, so, you know, why did these internet users, these men especially, send women like Jess Phillips abusive messages? But sadly, these men, these internet users,

are just the tip of the iceberg. They are pawns in a game so much bigger than them. And so if you're not focusing on the individuals there, you're focusing on wider social networks. I mean, which of these spaces do you believe treat women and girls the worst? Well, I would say every platform and every space in a way as its pitfalls and its horror stories. You know, according to several studies, Facebook seems to be in absolute terms, probably the worst platform where to be a woman, especially young women. Obviously, Twitter is particularly toxic for politically active women.

Instagram has been accused of exposing teenage girls to content that promotes eating disorders. YouTubes and porn platforms such as Pornhub instead, they all play a strong role in the circulation of non-consensual pornography. And, you know, we could carry on. But as I was saying before, you know, all these platforms have something in common. They are part of the same economic machine, if you like, that monetizes and encourages the diffusion of content and interactions that are harmful to women. And this is connected, of course, to the fact that these platforms make profit through data mining.

And so they have an interest in keeping us all online as long as possible to produce more and more data. And certainly one of the ways platforms achieve this debt is by presenting us with algorithmically manipulating content. Now, what does this have to do with digital violence against women like Jess Phillips? Well, sadly, quite a lot, because this means, for example, that users who spend some time scrolling sexist or, say, misogynistic content are likely to be shown on every individual platform more of the same. Right, the cycle repeats itself. Yeah.

Absolutely. I mean, you clearly highlight the problems there and the solutions to this lie in the hands of companies, essentially. I mean, what do you understand they are doing to improve women and girls' safety? Well, I mean, platforms do say many things. You know, they say that they have all modified their codes of contact, that, for example, they have hired huge numbers of social media moderators, which is a professional category of which I talk a lot in the book. And they say that, you know, in their mind, these are effective solutions, effective ways to protect women. But frankly,

in my mind, if big tech, if digital platforms genuinely wanted to protect women, well, they would have to revise the business model I just described, the functioning of their technologies, their monetization strategies. And so far, they have shown very little interest to do that. It's interesting that you mentioned the moderation of harmful content because often women take on that role as moderators and that can have a deep impact on them as well. Oh, absolutely. I'm very, very passionate about not know that, moderators are actually the people whose job is to literally clean up the worst of what is posted online. So, you know, think not only threatening messages such as the ones sent to Jess Phillips, but also, you know, videos of rapes, of murders, of torture. Absolutely. And, you know, the fact is that moderators and especially female ones, as you mentioned, are also badly exploited and mistreated.

Most of them are forced to visualize this very upsetting content for many hours per day without any access to truly effective mental health support. Men develop PTSD, depression, anxiety. Suicides are, you know are sadly not an unlikely occurrence. You also need to consider that the vast majority of them, that's not work directly for big tech companies. They work for intermediaries, which are often located in the global south, where workers protections might be less tight. And that is interesting because your book is brilliant.

It's almost offering us a spectrum of women at every stage of this process. And I want to also talk about that digital divide that you mentioned. Women who really can't get online at all. You mentioned countries like Kenya and Pakistan where women's access to the internet is limited. I mean, what effect does exclusion from this digital boom have on women? Oh, yeah, that's, if you like, the other side of the coin. It is, yeah. So, you know, we have women who are brutally attacked online. We have the female workers who are exploited while they produce technologies. But we also have the women who are harmed by the so-called digital gender gap. So the discrimination and the inequalities between men and women when it comes to access to Internet and technology in general worldwide. And, you know, as I say in the book, this discrimination and these inequalities were felt particularly heavily during the pandemic when not being able to access the internet for many women and girls meant being unable to attend

online classes being unable to work being unable to report say a violent man they were forced to quarantine with so absolutely the digital gender gap and the digital gender exclusion is another side of the coin that we must take seriously and we must do it now. I asked you earlier about how these big tech companies can find solutions, but you've also been trying to find solutions yourself as you think through and talk through the anecdotes that you share in your book. And you talk about something called a utopian muscle explain that thinking to us oh yes yeah so absolutely in the book i do try to address this kind of million dollar question which is what should we do about this all and i say a number of things you know i say that it is indeed possible to build alternative different technologies that serve people and communities and women as well, rather than just commercial interest. I also say that solutions to the problems, of course,

cannot only be technical, they must also be political. So I talk of several objectives, which I think are quite realistic, and that can be achieved reasonably from breaking up digital monopolies to legislating to make platforms more accountable towards their users and their workers. But yeah, the utopia muscle. So what I mean by this is that I believe for several decades, we've all been living in a culture that discourages genuinely radical thinking, discourages us from envisaging genuinely different ways of organising society and the economy and technology as well. So we all feel that we must

accept, say, the pitfalls of digital capitalism or even of patriarchal culture because, as they say, there is no alternative. And I believe this way of thinking has truly paralysed our capacity to imagine, say, genuinely feminist technologies or all-encompassing reforms that we need in all these areas. And I call this a muscle because I do believe that this kind of capacity for radical imagination is a bit like a muscle. It is certainly phrase of the day for me, and it's one that's going to stay with me. Thank you so much for sharing that with us and for sharing your insights from your book. That is Lilia Giugni. Her new book is A Threat, Why Digital Capitalism is Sexist and How to Resist.

Really, really good to get your insights there. Thank you for your time. And thank you to all of you who have been getting in touch with your views about what you have done with your children's bedrooms or whether you're going home to your old childhood bedroom, what it is like now. Diane, thank you for raising this very important point. She says, please give a thought to the many people who live in rented accommodation

and do not have the luxury of a permanent family home. Home, in my view, is a combination of family and friends, not a building or bedroom. That one from Diane, thank you. Catherine writes, my son left home about 25 years ago. His bedroom is now my grandson's, who, when he's staying, delights in looking through his daddy's desk drawers and discovering the long-forgotten treasures of the 80s and 90s.

And this one writes, I downsized to a two-bedroom apartment soon after my third offspring left home. I gave all three the ultimatum that unless they took possession of their stuff, it was going to the dump along with my own unwanted clutter. Job done. Thank you to all of you for getting in touch. Now, the protests in Iran are entering their fourth month with no sign of abating. They began following the death of Masa Amini, the 22-year-old who died in police custody.

We've seen women and men across the country taking to the streets and so far at least 500 protesters have been killed and nearly 18,500 others have been arrested during this current unrest. We also know that some women have been reclaiming their culture in quieter ways. We've been in touch with one such group who are reviving a simple but ancient tradition, that of making handmade dolls, which are then passed from generation to generation. London-based Chonaz Assefi is an artist originally from Iran. She's in touch with women inside the country who's been travelling around towns and villages collecting handmade dolls and she's here to tell us more. Good to have you with us, Tanaaz.

Thank you for having me today. Now, we are going to talk about these dolls specifically, which you have brought in to show me. But you also brought us a pomegranate tell us why because um we celebrate winter solstice in our culture in iran and it's sitting together the darkest night of the year and sharing food and sharing pomegranates and stories from our elders and read poetry and wait for the ray of first light to come in. That's beautiful. So it's really significant. And it's very significant. Well, thank you. Thank you. It looks lovely. Thank you. Let's talk about the doll specifically. I mean, how did this idea to revive this tradition

come about? Well, I know this wonderful woman who has been traveling around Iran and reviving them because sadly the tradition is dying out. So for the past two to three generations, mothers don't make dolls for their daughters now. friend that I've been in touch constantly, especially during pandemic and our many, many conversations, I got to know about them. And my best friend sent me some of the dolls. I received them exactly when, you know, the protest started. So to me, they had a different message. And I saw them from with completely different eyes. So they are all wearing their stories at their back. And I thought they have something to share, they have something to say. I'm going to take a look at them in a moment. But first, yes, they look lovely. And we're going to hear from your friend, Arfag, who spoke to us earlier from Tehran. It's not her real name. She is nervous about the backlash from the regime, as so many women and young girls are. She first heard about the dolls when looking for

a table decoration for a spring festival and finding one of the makers. I became involved with a group who revived the dolls and became friends with the leader. We started going on trips around Iran, especially to remote places and small villages, places I had never visited before. This helped me to learn, first of all, how to communicate with the village people and second, to learn about their lifestyle, how they live, how they do things, about their handicrafts, and what's special to them. The village people are different to city people. They're much closer to nature. So all of these little stories became a part of my thinking and my emotions.

So I understood better how carpets were weaved, how dolls were made, how clothes were made, and I paid more attention to all of these little bits about my own culture and my country. The village women got really excited when we visited them, partly because they never thought that they had anything interesting to offer city women and we were also interested in their handicraft, dolls being part of it, but they had rugs and carpets too and we were interested in how beautifully they weave these carpets and rugs in connection to nature how beautifully they have the understanding of color of nature and of storytelling so interesting what she had to say there You've got some of the dolls with you. Can I have a peek?

Sure. Describe them to us. They're very, very colourful. And they are made with offcuts of fabric. So women don't go out and buy fabric to make these dolls. It's always made from what they have at home. This doll, this tiny little doll is from Baluchistan, which is in east part of Iran border between Iran and Afghanistan. And she's wearing a button as her face. This button comes from the dad's shirt or coat. And the mom makes the doll. So the little

girl playing with this has a token from the mum and the dad. Throughout the day, she will play with her. And in the evening, she's a bit fearful of the dad finding out about the missing button being turned into a doll. She buries it in soil. And this is a beautiful story to me because it shows the connection the bond but the fearfulness and the shyness as well yeah um she's very colorful and beautiful and adorned in sequins and a nice turquoise kind of shawl on her back as well you see the style of the hair as well but so different to the other ones you've got and this is the other one that is a new bride. She's wearing her story at the back.

And these dolls are made for daughters who have been married and taken away to the groom's family. And in old days before, you know, mobile phones and telephones, the mum would gift her daughter with a doll and say, if you need a friend, if you need somebody to talk to, you can talk to her and she will be keeper of your story. The sign that this is a new bride is because of the two braided hair. Right. And, you know, and they don't I mean, it's important to share with our listeners that these dolls don't necessarily have facial features. Yes, they don't have faces because the makers believe the ultimate perfection is created by God. So when they make the dolls, first of all, well, one way of looking at it is that you can see any face you like in it, like a mirror. The other side is they don't have faces. And a dear friend of mine just suggested they

don't have eyes or mouth to speak, but they speak volumes. Don't you believe? They're beautiful. And the stories behind them even more touching. One thing I wanted to kind of expand on is what Arfag, your friend, was saying there in that clip about how you don't often hear the voices of the village women and that divide between urban women in big cities in Iran and village women. And I'm wondering, in light of the current uprising, how they or what they might be making of all that is unfolding in these big urban centres. It's difficult to know, to be honest, because somehow they are sheltered, you know, being away from the media. But everybody

has access to mobile phones nowadays. And they continue to make the dolls, they continue to do what they were doing. Life carries on, you know, and Iran has been through a history of hardship. So we've been through war, we've been through revolution, we've been, and they've carrying on working and working and making the dolls actually. I mean, linked to that, I know acquiring these dolls has been a real part of your process of acknowledging what is going on, being vocal about what's going on. I mean, what have these dolls meant to you? and what really happens to them now you've acquired them um I became very very emotional receiving them and not knowing what to expect

I've seen photos but when I held them in my hand and when I saw the little stories you know at their backs or handwritten on a piece of fabric it just spoke to me so much. And I was so desperately following the news, I still am, and feeling really emotional about the whole uprising and fighting for our rights. And I thought these dolls have been doing that. They've been keeper of our stories, and they've been keeper of our identity. And what next for them? What's coming next is I will be doing more talks and I will be joining a collective of artists, 42 artists, 20 days at Earl's Court Pop-Up Shop that is being given to artists. On 27th of January, I will be making artwork based on the dolls and some of these dolls will be for sale

and I will be giving a talk at the end of that day 27th of January Earl's Court Pop-Up I can see just how moving this has all been for you the process of acquiring the dolls and even talking about them

and that too after you've hardly slept so thank you for coming in after marking your cultural evening there and staying up all night to join us here on Woman's Hour. It's been an absolute pleasure having you. That is Tanoz Asafi, an artist, talking about the revival of handmade dolls inside Iran, all this in the backdrop of those protests

that are taking place inside the country. Thank you to all of my guests as well who have joined me on the programme and to all of you for getting in touch over on Twitter, email and text as well. For now, though, thank you for listening and do join us again tomorrow here on BBC Women's Hour. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Women's Hour over at BBC Sounds.

Dance. It entertains us and it connects us. And in my second series of Ultima Busse's Dancing Legends, I explore some more iconic dancers

who have been doing just that. Join me, Ultima Busse, as I delve into the lives of these trailblazers and pioneers who have changed the world of dance forever. The tap dancing duo who astounded audiences with their acrobatic skills. The Hollywood legend who showed her versatility across different dance

styles on screen. We'll hear about it all, so let's celebrate the magic of dance together. Subscribe to Ultima Busse's Dancing Legends on BBC Sound. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.