Woman's Hour - Rhian Graham, Who is Sue Gray?, Hopeline19

Episode Date: January 11, 2022

Who is Sue Gray, the civil servant tasked with investigating the Downing Street parties and has she been put in an impossible position? Caroline Slocock former private secretary to Margaret Thatcher and John Major and political journalist Jane Merrick discuss. Rhian Graham along with three other defendants were cleared of criminal damage by Bristol Crown Court after toppling the statue of the 17th century slave trader Edward Colston. Rhian joins Emma. Nearly 5000 messages have been left on a free phone number set up to allow people to give messages of thanks for NHS staff. Hopeline19 was founded by psychotherapist Claire Goodwin-Fee. She argues that NHS workers are not receiving enough mental health support. Hopeline19 grew out of Frontline19, a service offering mental health support to NHS workers that Claire established in March 2020. We all know how complicated relationships can be – especially when it comes to our parents. What is the best way to cope when we find ourselves stuck in the middle of our parents’ relationship? How can we learn to step back from being the family relationship therapist? We hear about two women’s experiences – listener Shely and life coach Diana Higgins. The pandemic put the brakes on everyone’s lives. For freelance journalist Lucy Holden, it has been a time for reflection. At the age of 30 she was forced to move back home with her parents and take stock of a wild decade lived in the fast-lane - a mechanism to avoid the pain and trauma of her past. She joins Emma to talk about her upcoming memoir: Lucid: A memoir of an extreme decade in an extreme generation. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Now, when the Prime Minister is asked about the latest party said to have happened in the Downing Street garden on the 20th of May 2020, at the height of lockdown one, he only has two words to say, Sue Gray, aka the woman tasked with investigating the slew of parties said to have happened within the corridors of power at the same time the rest of the country were living under the strictest restrictions imposed during peacetime. The Prime Minister is understood by the BBC to have attended this party along with his wife and around 30 or so other staffers after more than 100 were invited and is awaiting the findings of her inquiry.

Well, today we're going to look at who Sue Gray is, the 64-year-old top civil servant, presently the second permanent secretary at the Department for Leveling Up Housing and Communities, headed by Michael Gove. She has quite a job on her hands and is expected to report back within the next 10 to 14 days or so. We're also going to ask who else should resign over these parties, because so far there has only been one resignation and it was by a woman, Allegra Stratton, the former press secretary to the prime minister,

as she was filmed in a mock press conference joking with Number 10 staff about holding Christmas parties. She didn't even attend one of these parties, it's understood. Now cast your mind back to May 2020. What were you doing? Or what weren't you doing? We've been thinking about that this morning on the programme. We've looked back as to what you were telling us here on Women's Hour at the time. I wasn't here, but it's there as a matter of public record, and we've obviously still got a lot of your messages as well.

And just to say, of course, if you're thinking about May the 20th, 2020, that was, of course, a day where we were still having daily press conferences. Ministers were going out and telling us not to break the rules. And on that same day at 6pm, more than 100 staffers were invited to the Downing Street Garden, bring their own alcohol, because, of course, it has also been a beautiful run of weather. Woman's Hour actually on that day did a special programme all about relationships and how we were coping with our families and our nearest and dearest if we were able to be with them. How relationships specifically between the generations were being affected by social distancing measures and shielding,

homeschooling, juggling work, losing work, caring or not being able to care, weddings cancelled, birthdays postponed. A week later, when we were just looking through what else was being discussed at this time, Women's Hour did a special programme about women giving birth during lockdown, which you may remember included the story of Lizzie, who had to give birth alone and nearly died, as her partner couldn't be with her because he had to stay at home with their other children because there were no grandparents to care for them due to those lockdown restrictions. So as we have this conversation about the key woman now tasked

with looking into these Downing Street parties, what do you remember about May 2020? You can text me here at womanshour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Social media are at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. I'll be looking out for your messages throughout the programme as always. Also on today's programme, why listening to some phone messages has been making NHS staff smile. And I'll be talking to Rhian Graham, the only woman from the so-called Colston Four, the group of protesters who have been cleared of criminal damage after toppling the statue of the slave trader Edward Colston in Bristol. But how do you defend an email inviting more

than 100 people to a Downing Street garden drinks party on May 20th, 2020, the same day ministers warned the public not to break the rules and only meet with one person from outside of their household outdoors. Well, here's what Edward Argar, the health minister, had to say on the Today programme to my colleagues this morning. That's why I say I look forward to Ms Gray's report and hopefully very swiftly. But I don't want to suggest when she will. That's for her. But I hope it will be a swift report and I hope it will clarify all the facts around this and around some of the other allegations we've seen about whether regulations were broken. That's what she is working on. I know she's keen to get to the bottom of it. I'm keen to see what she concludes and for her to get to the bottom of these allegations and the facts to be set out. And then, as I say, if rules are found to have been broken, appropriate disciplinary actions,

the Prime Minister said, should be taken. It's right she does that work. I think everyone wants to see what her conclusions are. And as I say, I've known, I've come across Ms Gray in government, she operates without fear or favour and has the highest standards of integrity. So I look forward to that report, as I suspect people up and down the country will. All about Sue Gray then, once described as deputy god and the most powerful person you'd never heard of in politics. Well, joining me now is the political journalist and policy editor at the iNewspaper, Jane Merrick. Jane, who is Sue? What do we know about her? I think what's really interesting about Sue Gray, actually Edward Argar said there, is that she's a woman of great integrity. She's widely respected across the civil service,

not only for getting to the bottom of major inquiries that she's been tasked to look at, the Plebgate scandal of 2012, Damien Green in 2017, and now this one. So I think there is a lot of faith in her that she will do a good job. But she's also a career civil servant. So it's very interesting to see that she's not only going to be investigating what the prime minister did or didn't do, but also what senior civil servants did. And I think that's really, really fascinating. Well, the man who invited everyone to this drinks party is Martin Reynolds, the prime minister's principal private secretary, a member of the Civil Service. Someone who has direct experience of such a role is Caroline Slowcock,

now Director of Civil Exchange, but the former private secretary to Margaret Thatcher and John Major, the first woman to hold the post. She also joins us now. Good morning, Caroline. Good morning. I wanted to ask, first of all, could a private secretary send an email like this without the knowledge of the prime minister? I don't think so. I mean, you know, it's I find it inconceivable.

The reason being that the principal private secretary, any private secretary is almost incredibly close to the prime minister. And when he uses the word we, I think that word does include the prime minister. And also, this was in the prime minister's garden. I'm sure, you know, especially given this was actually obviously breaking rules, he would have had to have discussed it with the prime minister. And in terms of what your view is of Sue Gray's job, and if you've actually had any dealings with her, tell us about her role and what you think she can or can't do in this instance, because a lot's being put on her plate. Yes, I think she's being put in an impossible position because,

you know, no one doubts her integrity and, you know, her impartiality. You know, she has an impeccable track record. But in this case, she's being asked to essentially investigate the prime minister. And civil servants, people perhaps don't realise, but civil servants, although impartial, only work for the ministers of the day. They don't work for parliament. They don't work for some wider public interest. It is their job. And everything that is put in writing by a civil servant will be vetted by ministers. And in this case, we're talking about the prime minister. I mean, I have personal reasons to know about this vetting process because 30 years after the events that I wrote about in my book, which is about the fall of the prime minister and my role as private secretary at that time. Margaret Thatcher. I had to clear that book with Sue Gray

when she was the propriety and ethics head. She read it and she actually asked for one change in the book, even though 30 years had elapsed. And the reason that they do that is because civil servants are not really allowed to, I mean, they wouldn't put it this way, but to embarrass ministers. And I think she's just in a very difficult position, rather, you know, worse than Lord Guides, who really, I think, struggled with the recent problems over the Wallpaper Gate affair, where he really had to

rely on the Prime Minister's word in order to hold an almost impossible position. And I think she will have to interview him. She will have to take his word. And too much is, you know, it's just really, I think, impossible for her. I'm sure she'll do her best. So just paint the scene for us, Caroline. She's going to have to do this report and then she'll have to give it to her boss, the Prime Minister, in which it will say, potentially, you were at this party breaking the rules, Prime Minister.

He will say, presumably, well, that's not quite right. You know, he will find some slippery way out of it. We don't know what he's going to say, in all fairness, but that's the, just, you know, in regular day to day terms, so people can understand. I mean, it might be possible for her

perhaps to report to a different minister. But ultimately, she works for the government, and he is the head of the government. I mean, I think, you know, as a former civil servant. Sorry, if I just may, so she might have to make the recommendation to the Prime Minister that action should be taken against him. And he will see that and have to sign off on it. Yeah. And also he will look at the words in the report. I'm sure I'm sure there will be some process for negotiating what she says. And if you look at Lord Guy's recent letter to the Prime Minister, you can see that he's, you know, any civil servant will recognise the syndrome. He says, I also recognise your contention that the missing exchange, which was those texts with Lord Brownlow, is capable of being reconciled to your earlier statement to me, namely that you didn't know that Lord Brownlow had funded the flat. I mean, it's that sort of, you know, that is civil service.

That is, yes, prime minister writing, which is sort of finding a way through. And I think she will feel that she probably has to find the best way through to cause the least embarrassment. You know, but I just wouldn't want to be in her shoes at this point. Do you think even if she has that reputation, Caroline, do you think she can do all that she needs to do in this role because of that compromised position? I struggle to see it. I mean, I think this needs an independent investigator. I'm not talking about Lord Guyton, who I think currently doesn't have really the powers, but somebody who is not a serving civil servant should be doing this role. Do you think she should recuse herself from it? I don't think she can because she works for the government. That's what civil servants do. That would cause...

She doesn't have the power. Maybe Simon Case should be thinking about this. But obviously he's been implicated as well. But I just can't see how she can be made to be the person

who decides on this. I think it's impossible for her and I actually really feel for her. Of course, there's others who say, the Metropolitan Police say they're now in touch with the Cabinet. Obviously, you talk about independence. Should this be a matter for the police? What's your view on that? Because this was about rules and laws that people were subjected to and other people were fined for breaking. Personally, I think, yes. But I think the problem here is that we have a serving prime minister and anything that leads to the investigation being shunted to another person, put in the hands of the police, lets him off the hook for a period of time. And actually, we're all wanting to see some resolution of this now.

What do you want to say? I mean, to say what, you know, to say whether it was the case or not. But frankly, let's face it, you know, there are many people in this country who would not necessarily believe what the Prime Minister said, given his track record. What do you want to see happen, Caroline? I'll come back to Jane in just a moment. Well, I think that probably, first of all, the Prime Minister has to answer to Parliament. He has to say to Parliament, in front of Parliament, what happened. And then if he lies to Parliament, then he is, I think, obliged to resign. And I think an independent investigator may have to be established,

but not one who's going to constantly trip over themselves, finding new parties and new reasons why this can be shunted into some long grass. And just another word from your experience, if I can. I mentioned there about Martin Reynolds, the Prime Minister's principal private secretary, who sent this invitation. If you had sent this sort of invitation in these circumstances, while you were in the same role for Margaret Thatcher would you still have a job? No I think not I think he probably will have to go because he's broken it's evidently you know on the face of it if this email is correct you know if it's

not been falsified he's he's broken the rule so I think he will be shifted into some other job I think that's almost inevitable. We're seeing government implode here. I mean, all of these people, you know, there's also the question of his chief spokesman, you know, who I think we know did call a party or did, you know, hold an event

at number 10. You know, why hasn't he gone? You're talking, I believe about, you're talking about the Prime Minister's chief spokesman, the current one. Yes, yes. We're talking there, Jane Merritt, help me out, about Jack Doyle, are we talking about there? Just struggling to keep up with parties. No, Caroline? I can't remember his name, I'm afraid.

All right. He's invisible in government. I think it's Jack Doyle. Well, no, it's hard to try and keep up. Of course, this is why there's an investigation. Jane Merritt, to bring you back into this, you know, people are getting in touch as well as their memories from May 2020. They are talking about what's going to happen, what the next steps should be. I mentioned right at the beginning, only one person has resigned. It happens to be a woman, a woman, as we understand it, who hadn't attended any of these parties, Allegra Stratton. What do you make of that? And who else do you think should potentially not have a job anymore? Well, I'd love to know what Allegra is thinking this morning, actually, because she resigned within hours of that video coming out in which she said she wasn't there. So you're completely right. I mean, just to say on Sue Gray, you know, she's not, I understand what Caroline is saying, but she's not afraid to force ministerial resignations where necessary, as she did in the Damien Green inquiry. And she stood up to Theresa May on that, who was a great ally of Damien Green. So, but I think it would be, she's in a, I agree with Caroline, she's in a very difficult position to be able to investigate Prime Minister and report to the Prime Minister.

But as we've seen so far, I don't think anything, any inquiry is really going to get to the Prime Minister. I think it's going to be the public opinion of what the Prime Minister has done at the next election and people will remember what they were doing in May 2020 and they will remember this. And in a way, maybe that's the only way that he will resign if he's forced to by the electorate. I think what happens next is that Sue Gray will publish

quite a robust report. It's very difficult what she can do with the Prime Minister, but I think there will be resignations. I think Martin Reynolds probably hasn't resigned so far because if he did, it would lead to complete chaos in Downing Street. So he will stay until her report comes out. And then I think he will have to resign. But there will be other resignations as well.

Not to forget that she's investigating other parties that went on. She will need to know which senior staff were at those Downing Street Christmas parties. And I think there will be resignations. But I think the public will see that there is one person who hasn't lost his job, and that will be the Prime Minister. And I think it will be really for but I think the public will see that there is one person who hasn't lost his job and that will be the Prime Minister and I think it will be really for the public to decide

on the future of his job. Just to say Caroline with regards to what you were mentioning there and there have been several different parties reported the one that you were referring to is is the allegation that Boris Johnson's top communications advisor, Jack Doyle, indeed the chief of communications at Number 10, was at a party, a Christmas party, and addressed, gave his thank you speech to press office workers on the 18th of December. Not last year, but the year before. So just to clarify that. Caroline, a sort of final word from you. I mean, I know one of the things that you care about is, I suppose,

that kind of trust in the office and the standards and all of this. I mean, I'm looking at messages. I have to say majority of them are about what people weren't doing during that time. And a lot of people also getting in touch, you know, feeling particularly angry about this. But there's another one here just saying, I'm sure I'm not the only person to find it difficult to get suitably angry about this garden party. As I recall, we were all looking for loopholes at the time. And I remember taking a very liberal view of the term social bubble to see various friends. What I actually find more nauseating is the po-faced virtuous attitude of people like Keir Starmer, Ed Miliband, although I recognise I'm in a sinful minority. At the risk of not wanting to ever be in a bubble, Caroline,

do you recognise that sort of view as well in this? Because there are a lot of people who voted for Boris Johnson and keep wanting to do so. People who set the rules, set the standards in public life should abide by those rules. Otherwise, it's profoundly corrosive. There'll always be individuals in society who will stretch rules. That's for them. But, you know, if the people who set the rules are breaking the rules, then we have a real problem. And the prime minister is accountable to parliament. And it's parliament, you know, really, that should sort this out.

And, you know, the Conservative Party, I think, needs to look at the man who's in charge and look at what's happening to government. Thank you very much. And take the appropriate action. There's a long history of regicide in the Conservative Party. And I witnessed one with Margaret Thatcher and saw that slow downfall. And I think we're coming towards, if not the beginning of the end, we may even be closer to the end for Boris Johnson. Because you can't get away with this behaviour in public life.

And if you do, then we've all accepted a huge corrosion of standards. Well, the prime minister says he's awaiting the review, the independent or as he puts it, independent or investigation inquiry by Sue Gray, the woman now tasked with this job. Thank you for giving us a window into her potential task here and how it may or may not shake down. A very strong view from you, Caroline Slowcock, former Private Secretary Margaret Thatcher and John Major, now Director of Civil Exchange, and the journalist Jane Merrick there for the Eye newspaper.

A message here. In May 2020, I was returning to work after maternity leave and my job working with rough sleepers in COVID facilities. We couldn't do any settling in with my toddler at nursery due to the restrictions. So we had to leave him at the door after being together every day, all day in the house during lockdown. It was very emotional and strange. We hadn't seen any of our family for months. We were very worried about Covid and all of the people who were vulnerable and shielding.

Somebody who styles himself as a former Boris Johnson fan. In May 2020, this is Elsa who's got in touch, it was my eldest son's 21st birthday on the 17th of May, my youngest's 19th birthday on the 21st of May. We abided by the rules, we celebrated in our back garden with one of their friends. We did not see family or grandparents. I have always championed Boris Johnson but I've been so disappointed by the scandal of these parties when at the same time, knowing people who could not be with dying loved ones in hospital, it is a disgrace. Well, to that point, my dad, this says his message, died at home on the 19th of May in 2020 in severe pain. Even his GP and district nurse didn't visit him as

often as they should due to nervousness that he may have Covid. He didn't. Family were not allowed to visit either and only saw him once during the previous month. And even then, we were worried it was against the rules. My mum died six weeks later alone without family visitors other than us talking from the bottom of the stairs. They lived in a flat, so no chance of sitting outside in a garden. It makes me furious to hear of a party taking place in Downing Street in the same week. No name on that message, but thank you very much for sharing that. A message here. On May the 20th, 2020, my sister-in-law gave birth to her lockdown baby, who none of the wider families

were able to meet for months. In our own home, it was days before my daughter's fifth birthday. No party allowed, socially distanced or otherwise, says Caroline, who's listening in London. Good morning to you. Overnight wait outside A&E to see what was wrong with my husband in May. I presume on May 20th he was told to attend and I was not allowed to leave the car to help him in. He hauled himself along the wall to the door and crawled in. Luckily, his infected appendix was removed the next day. Another message from Alan. At that very time, my brother-in-law was dying of COVID. Nobody at his bedside, nobody at his funeral,

just a box of ashes delivered by courier to the family. It is truly awful. And one more, and I can't tell you how many there are, but one more just to go to, and I think a lot of you also just been looking back through the calendar, through the diaries, and actually for some of you, these dates are etched in your mind. In May 2020, we had to decide which of his grandchildren could attend my father's funeral

as we were restricted to six people. Worse than that, after 99 years of a vigorous life, including active service in the RAF in World War II, he had to die in hospital alone without loved ones. Thank you very much indeed for all of these messages coming in this morning about what you remember about May 2020 and what you were, or crucially what you were not doing. Now, in terms of some of the messages coming in, you're talking a lot about the support of the NHS and those workers throughout the pandemic. We know the pandemic has had an impact on mental well-being, not least that of the mental health of our frontline workers.

Well, thousands of messages have been left on a free phone number set up to allow people to leave thank you messages for those individuals. And the woman behind this campaign, which is called, the line I should say is called Hopeline19, is Claire Goodwin-Lee. Claire, good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for joining us today. Just to tell us if people don't yet know, what is Hopeline19? So Hopeline19 is a campaign that we started. I run an organisation, ironically started on the 20th of March last year, to support people within the NHS and frontline.

So the phone line is to offer some positivity. The frontline workers and NHS workers, as we know, are very, very much struggling. They are burnt out, exhausted. And the biggest thing that we hear is they feel incredibly undervalued. So it's a small offering to try and support people to say, keep going. You know, the majority of people are behind you, want to support you and to know that you've not been forgotten about. There's been many, many sacrifices made by many NHS and frontline workers. And so it's a it's a small way of offering some positivity. And it's been incredibly popular. So how does it work? People ring up? Yeah. And they leave a message or they speak to somebody? So they ring up the phone line. And there's two options, you can press one option to

listen to the messages, if you need a boost. And I have to be honest with you, even though I'm not within the NHS, I often ring myself because it's it's lovely seeing people speak kindly about strangers and sometimes they might talk about particular hospitals and kind of share their experiences a couple of the messages really sit in my mind one was from a lady that said she'd had a transplant you know through the NHS and because of their love and care she was able to go and play in the park with her granddaughter so there were some really powerful messages on there so you press one to to kind of listen to the messages and another number to kind of leave your own message so option

one is to kind of leave your message for people to hear and option two is so that you can actually leave hear those messages and and get a bit of a boost. Well, imagining we've pressed option one, let's hear one of those messages. Hiya, I just wanted to say thank you. Thank you for looking after our loved ones when we weren't able to. I know that that is really impacting on a lot of you and your emotional wellbeing. But please please please remember that you did something that we couldn't and we're grateful really really grateful for that because you were there when we couldn't be and it means the world to us thank you does it i mean in terms

of the response you've had from nhs staff who've listened what have they said about it because as you say it brings a smile to to my face I'm sure lots of our listeners it's been really positively received we've had lots of awesome messages across social media from people saying that they really appreciated it we've had people on the night cruise saying we you know on our breaks we kind of sometimes feel a bit flowy a bit flat a bit exhausted we'll ring up and listen to the messages so that we can have a little bit of a boost and we tend to have a bit of a kind of a peaking cause in the early evening sort of into the latter hours I imagine it's people coming home from shifts and then listening in or people on their breaks later on they've all said how lovely it is and it really gives them hope because they've had such a difficult, difficult time over the last two years and it's been incredibly

tiring and emotionally and physically exhausting for them and they've been through the most horrendous experiences. So to have something that offers some hope and some positivity to them when they're feeling so incredibly undervalued really means the world to them. Do you know how many people have left messages? Can you give us a sense of the breadth of this? So it really took off last week. In the last seven days, we've received nearly 18,000 calls. We are working through a very big backlog of calls that have been left at the moment,

but in excess of 1,000 calls and messages have been left. There's probably more, but we're having to upgrade the system because of the demand on it. So once that's done, we'll have a more accurate view. But there's been thousands, and people have been contacting us across social media, leaving messages and kind of telling us how they feel about the NHS, which has been really lovely. I suppose the other thing is that since Clapping for Carers stopped,

if people had taken part in that, it's another way of being able to say and share your thanks. I think so. I mean, at the start of it, it was there's so much support that's needing. I mean, we as Frontline 19, we offer a counselling service to frontline and NHS workers. And we've been incredibly busy. Again, we're all volunteers. We don't receive any funding. We have to rely on donations. And obviously, you know, volunteers coming from professional backgrounds. So this is, just to be clear, this is separate to Hopeline 19.

So basically, Frontline 19, that's the organisation that I started. And our campaign is called hopeline 19 so um the the kind of bread and butter work that we do is is uh counseling and support spaces for the nhs and frontline workers um on that alone we've given away over 100 000 counseling sessions to workers over the last um 18 19 months. We do have volunteers that are all qualified therapists that help us with that. So that's kind of the main bit. And then Adam and Eve, which are a company that are behind

the John Lewis Christmas adverts, which I'm sure a lot of people are aware of and love, came to us and we had discussions about how they could support our work and to raise awareness of kind of what people have been through, but also offer some positivity. came to us and we had discussions about how they could support our work and to raise awareness of kind of what people have been through but also offer some positivity and that's how Hope Line 19 was born so that people can leave a message because if you notice when you look at some of the websites for some of the trusts they don't have a space to say listen I met so-and-so today and they did a great job because you may know that not everybody's perfect in any kind of profession,

but there are some really good people. Also, sometimes you can't think of the thing that you want to say there and there. Yes, absolutely. Even if you don't have the chance or do have the chance and then think of it later. So it's somewhere to put it in that respect. Thank you very much for talking to us. Claire Goodwin-Fee, who set this up.

Hopeline 19 is the name of it. And you'll be able to look up the details of that and it was great to be able to hear one of those messages that the NHS staff and workers who are aware of this have been listening to. So thank you to you. Your message is still coming in this morning with regards to

what you remember about May 2020. In terms of one of them here, in May 2020 I remember my 98-year-old granny dying of COVID on her own in a care home in County Durham. We couldn't visit her to say goodbye and she died without her family with her. Her children couldn't go to her funeral. We haven't all been able to meet since her death due to travel rules as my uncle is in Canada and our family are taking COVID precautions seriously, says Emma, who's listening in Edinburgh. Good morning to you.

Another one from Joanne. May 20th, 2020 was my 70th birthday. I had planned a riverboat trip along the Thames for 40 people at Windsor, which had to be cancelled. After three more date changes, the river trip finally went ahead in July last year. Another message here. I'm very happy to hear that.

Happy belated birthday. As a police officer in May 2020, my colleagues and I were trying to do our jobs in an atmosphere of confusion and fear. We felt abandoned on all fronts. Today, my baby is one week old and that spring feels very far away. Yet little has really changed. We need one message here, as I say, from a police officer. Louise says, oh, gosh, listening to the stories on Woman's Hour this morning, remembering the conditions in May 2020 and weeping. We all have our stories. Another one here.

Well, if it was Woman's Hour's intention to make us cry this morning, you've succeeded with me from utter rage, crying to happy tears at people's kindness. Just responding there to listening to the messages going in to that phone line, Hopeline 19. Keep your messages coming in on 84844. That's the number you need to text or at BBC Women's Hour on social media. Now, Rhian Graham is one of the so-called Colston Four. And along with three other defendants, all men, she was cleared of criminal damage by Bristol Crown Court at the end of last week after toppling the statue of 17th century slave trader Edward Colston.

News of the verdict appeared on the front pages and people have been split over whether the verdict was the right one. People were cheering in the public gallery of the court, you may recall, but there has also been a fair bit of criticism, not least from certain MPs. Rhiann Graham joins me now from Bristol. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Well, thanks for coming on. I imagine it's been quite a few days for you since that verdict. I thought we could go back to the moment you heard the verdict, because this has been hanging over you for quite a while. The trial, as it is, as it were, the legal proceedings. What was your reaction upon hearing that? I think you have to maintain some composure when you're standing in the dock.

But as soon as Milo's verdict was read out first, I think tears just sort of projected from my eyes without really moving the rest of my body. And then when we finally had all four verdicts, you just heard the whole public gallery erupt into cheering and stamping. Yeah, it was a very emotional moment, one we've been waiting a really long time to hear. Were you shocked? What were you thinking might happen? I mean, I've always had a

very good feeling about it just because I felt justified in my actions. So I've had to maintain that the whole way through. But obviously, you have to stay grounded and the jury could have gone either way, realistically. But I'm just very, very pleased that they sat through all of that evidence and came to the conclusion that our actions were proportionate. Going back to the actions, what was your role? Because on the day that the statue was knocked over and pulled down, I believe you attended the protest with a rope. I did, yeah. So I work in the events industry and some of the work I do is lighting rigging or rigging generally. So I have access to rope and I can tie knots. So the main idea really was to provide a rope to the people should they wish to pull on it.

And yeah, so I tied the rope, tied the knot, sorry, brought the rope and did end up pulling it on it in the end too with everybody else. Was that coordinated? Did you know other people you were going with? And was that the plan? Because you don't always take a rope to a protest. No, you don't. I mean, I'd come to the conclusion myself that I wanted to bring a rope. But the thing that I think everybody struggles to really believe is that I didn't know Milo was going to have a rope. And Milo didn't know I was going to have a rope. And that genuinely true you can see some people's faces like yeah whatever but this is this is one of your co-defendants but and somebody you knew yeah yeah yeah no we had had a conversation about it but we never discussed a plan it wasn't a set thing until we were there in the moment really

and you you say the action is proportionate. How do you defend that? Because of course, some people very much view it as criminal damage and not proportionate. Yeah, absolutely. There's been a lot of people still maintaining that it's criminal damage, despite the fact that we've now been cleared and acquitted. But the main point of that is one of our defences was that we were preventing a crime and there's two crimes here one um is the fact that that statue was an indecent display and uh was not in accordance with the public sector equalities duty and that's a duty that the council and the cps and all official bodies have to take into account um when it comes to deciding to do anything. And that's just the ability to create and foster good relations

between races and gender and all sorts of protected groups of people. And so we were saying that this statue was an indecent display and didn't uphold the public sector equality's duty. And in that sense, it was also a crime which was misconduct in public office. And that's the failure of the council over a good 30 years of quite active protest around the statue. And actually dissent around that statue goes back to the 1920s. So the statue only really stood for 25 years before it started being contested. And it stood there for 125 years in total. Yes. I mean, in terms of just some of those who have continued to say that this was, that your acts, if you like, were the wrong ones,

that your acts were the indecent one, regardless of the verdict. The MP for Ipswich, Tom Hunt, told The Telegraph, if you've broken the law, committed criminal damage, you should be punished. If the jury is a barrier to ensuring they are punished, then that needs to be addressed. The former community secretary, Robert Jenrick, conservative MP, said we undermine the rule of law, which underpins our democracy. If we accept vandalism and criminal damage are acceptable forms of political protest. They aren't, regardless of the intentions. What do you say to that? I think Robert Jenrick perhaps doesn't have a memory

of protest and progress over history. Many people have damaged things. Civil disobedience has a long history in our progress as a society. So to say that damaging things is never appropriate is just not true historically. Well, you've also had some support. I don't know if you saw this from the former Chancellor, George Osborne. He's now the chairman of the British Museum, who tweeted, the British jury system again acquits itself brilliantly. Would have been stupid to convict

those who pulled down the Colston statue. Thomas and Oliver Cromwell pulled down many more statues. What's dumb is setting up a bureaucratic statue commissions after the fact. So have you had some support in unexpected quarters? I mean, I was surprised to see Rishi Sunak coming to, not necessarily our defence, but at least the defence of the legal system. I don't think we can be, sorry, someone's interrupted me over there. Sorry, I've lost my train of thought. You were saying Rishi Sunak coming to the defence of the jury system. Yeah, I mean, not our defence, but at least I think it's quite illuminating that some Tory MPs don't like the result that we have

and suddenly want to change the fact that we have a jury trial option. You know, that's a cornerstone of our democracy and I suppose without without getting into sorry go on go on I was going to say what really concerns me is the um sort of diverting of attention here and making this all about statues and damage and actually we've kind of got to go back to why 10 000 people were in the streets of Bristol that day and that was in the name of racial equality and against police brutality um and it's really really illuminating that in this uh police crime and sentencing courts bill that is uh on its last reading at the moment there's a new bit of legislation to um up the charges on um oh sorry

sorry the sentencing on pulling down statues. So you can now get a maximum of 10 years. Statues are not the point here. I think they're missing the point entirely. Well, what I was going to say is rather than being drawn, I suppose, on the merits or not of the jury system and the jury system not being the thing on trial here per se and the actual point, I know that you're keen to stress that you hope uh that this doesn't make other

people feel like they can just go around and do this sort of thing that you're talking very much that the context of this was what was important but but do you have any concern that it will give a license in some way i mean a statue this time in this city. But anybody that goes and damages anything, regardless of their intention, will be held to account by the law, as we were. You know, we have gone through the democratic system and a jury has listened to all of the evidence given to them. And they've come to the same conclusion that we had. I'm sorry, I must also say that I've just been passed a little note. It wasn't Rishi Sunak that was saying that. It was Jacob Rees-Mogg, just to make sure that I'm accurate

and not misquoting people. Okay, you've got your own producer there, it seems, next to you. Are you now mooting a move into politics? Are you going to change what you do if you work in events? I don't know. You know, at the moment, I'm just sort of trying to use this platform as, you know, to keep the conversation going and dealing with the fallout of the trial. I don't really feel like I've had much time to relax yet. But this has certainly changed my life quite significantly. So maybe a journey into

politics. We'll see what the future holds. Well, perhaps we'll meet again on that road. I do tend to talk to a lot of politicians when they are available, of course, to come on to whichever programme I'm on at that moment. Rhian Graham, thank you very much for explaining your side of things this morning.

I have to say a message came in as we were talking, which said you need to understand more about Bristol and its history to understand the feelings there. Colston's everywhere in Bristol. The statue is put up by the Society of Merchant Venturers, who have a long, strong and important influence in Bristol.

So there you go in terms of something coming in from somebody who I presume probably lives in Bristol or has something to do with it. Now, in terms of our next discussion, we are just going to focus a little bit more on what we've sort of been talking about throughout the whole programme, which is relationships and kind of how they are at the moment and perhaps how they've been in the last couple of years, not least during the pandemic. But also maybe you'll be thinking about this because of Christmas that's just happened. And maybe you have just spent a lot of time with mum and dad and realised, you know, you've turned into the relationship therapist. How can we learn to step back and not get stuck in the middle of our parents' relationship?

I'm now joined by one of you, our listeners, Shelley and a life coach, Diana Higgins, to get a bit more into this. Shelley, tell us a bit about your relationship, first of all, with your parents and what's it like between your parents so um i uh i um was 14 when my parents split up and i'm now 42 um and sort of since their split um the relationship between them has been pretty difficult and i've i've felt sort of caught in the middle of it really um and and kind of been on the receiving end of a lot of my mum talking to me in a way that probably was a bit inappropriate. But at the time, I didn't really know how to deal with that or that it was inappropriate. And it's only sort of in later life that I've come to realise how unbounded it was and how much it had affected me over the years. So you found yourself kind of drawn into that and your mum taking you into her confidence?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm talking a lot, getting really upset about things with me. Diana, how's it with your parents and what's your role within that? So both my parents are still together, but i always describe um and they don't appreciate this but i do think it's a bit of a dysfunctional relationship um my parents i have and i have very different relationships with my mother and a very different relationship with my father but at the core of it um we talk about a lot of generational hurt and so behaviors that come down the line and i find myself in a position where i'm trying to break that dysfunction um but it's very very hard um because as as children you look up

to your parents and there is an essence of us that tries to please our parents in some shape or form but as you become an adult those values and it can be very very challenging so with my mother I kind of have to tiptoe a lot around conversations because she's very sensitive with my father I can be a little bit more direct um but our view and our outlook is very very different so sometimes there's a total disagreement there as well and and you've actually been you sort of stuck in the middle of that haven't you at times with with how they are about honesty and trust and how their relationship works yeah absolutely um i found myself in a situation whereby um i found out that my father had a another child out of wedlock

um and had to make a decision whether i told my mother or not and it was really really hard because here was I as an adult having respect for both of them loving both of them immensely um but holding a secret that at its core could just blow up the whole family dynamics and what happened I took a very conscious and brave step to tell my mother about the affair I didn't feel like it was my secret to hold. My father wasn't forthcoming in telling that or giving my mum that information. And given that it had happened previously before, it wasn't a burden I was willing to carry. My own peace of mind and my own sanity became more important to me, especially as I more or less around that time started to

go on my own personal development journey. And so, yeah, I just could not hold that. I couldn't look my mother in the eyes and hold that secret. And they're still together? They are still together. And in terms of your relationship with your dad after that, how was that? Very fractured, very broken. I lost a lot of respect for my father because like I said this was the second time that this had happened um and didn't speak to him for a very very long time didn't even want to be around him for a very very long time um but I

also recognized the power of forgiveness and I had to forgive um and it wasn't so much forgiving the actions that he took but it was more about myself and being able to move on. Because for me personally, I was holding a lot of resentment towards my father and that was just eating me up inside. So I had to learn to forgive and move on and just come to this place that your parents are your parents. You're never going to change them.

And so the most that you can do is protect yourself by either stepping back or by setting boundaries with them and and coming to boundaries then shelly it sounds like uh you wish there had been more of them and that you hadn't perhaps heard so much from your mum yeah absolutely because i think at the time they split up i didn't even really know what boundaries were. I'd never heard the term used in terms of emotional terms. And so I kind of ended up really resenting my dad. I can really emphasise with what Diana's saying, because I heard so much negative stuff about him.

And it was more his actions that impacted on on how my mum would talk to me. So kind of they were both both responsible in a way um but now I work in mental health myself and uh I've sort of had some therapy which has been really useful and been able to sort of put boundaries in place uh and I think that's actually worked really well and been really successful in uh in being able to manage this situation because you can't change them i think the situation is always going to be slightly there although it's slightly improved have you well i was going to say have you got any advice for for people listening who do find themselves and maybe just after christmas have been reflecting on being stuck

in the middle of their parents relationship however it is i think number one is looking after yourself and just doing all the things that you need for your self-care whether it's exercise yoga meditation chatting to friends um and then knowing what your boundaries are and just feeling those feelings if you're feeling something becoming uh too intense or you're feeling some something really affecting you then really clocking it and checking in with yourself and and then you know being kind and compassionate to them whilst being firm and knowing what what you can and can't listen to and perhaps not picking up the phone when you know that you're not in the state of mind to deal with a difficult phone call

from one of them and then you know if it is really affecting you definitely um don't keep it inside and seek professional help and have some counselling to help you sort through your feelings that's really helpful as well well thank you very much for for that shelly diana a final word from you and where you've come out on this for those again who who might be listening thinking i just don't want to know this much about my parents especially if they've heard your story and you know i just have to agree with everything shelly said it's really about setting your boundaries you have to be able to set those boundaries but do it with um you know coming from a place of love and compassion and i always say have an exit strategy right so like shelly mentioned if you see that phone ring

and you oh diana you know something may have triggered your parents don't answer the call protect yourself and so have an exit strategy even when you're in their presence if you start to feel a conversation is going left or it's getting out of hand make your excuses and walk away because it's all about your peace of mind carrying a lot of that can be very very heart destroying there you go we got we got it your your line exited just for a moment as you were saying have an exit strategy and about screening calls there which was rather ironic but it reconnected enough for us to get the gist uh

diana higgins uh shelly thank you to both of you and more messages coming in with regards to your memories of may 2020 and relationships uh That day was 90 degrees in London, a socially distanced break in the garden by hard-pressed civil servants should not be taking up wall-to-wall coverage on major news outlets, says Claire. A message here, in my 80s, I was one of only 10 mourners allowed at my daughter's funeral.

So like many more grieving family members all over this great country of ours, I'm completely disgusted. Boris Johnson has shown a lack of respect and is not fit for purpose. But another message here, I just don't get it about the alleged Downing Street parties. The strain and stresses were put on the prime minister and the government during the pandemic are immense. How they managed to get through it and come out the other side, I just don't know. We've never had anything on this scale before.

And I think whatever did happen, they deserved a bit of light relief. This is what this message says from what was going on in the world. But a message here saying in May 2020, I was sitting at a Crown Court judge. The court and prison staff worked unstintingly in conditions that were physically hard as they were wearing masks in a great heat, as well as it was extremely stressful. The prisoners were confused due to prolonged detention, due to delays caused by COVID. Every one of the prison and court staff complied with the rules.

No social breaks in the lunch times were taken. That's from Caroline. Well, regarding how it was living in lockdown during the pandemic, or certainly when you think back to how lockdown was when it began, it did put the brakes on a lot of people's lives and routines.

And for some, the newfound slower pace of life created a space to reflect on and process the choices perhaps they'd been making, the lives that they'd been living up until that point. And that was particularly the case for the freelance journalist, Lucy Holden, a Times writer and Evening Standard's dating columnist. Lucy's put this into an upcoming book called Lucid, a memoir of an extreme decade in an extreme

generation. Lucy, good morning. Hi, how are you? I'm all right. How are you? Because it sounds like lockdown, certainly the first few months of it, was quite intense because you decided to sort of look back at what had been going on. Yes, basically for the first time as well. It was kind of a nightmare as it was for everyone else. But I think a lot of people tried to write books or wrote books in the pandemic. It was kind of a really amazing form of escapism. You know, we kind of didn't want to be in the world outside our windows. So getting the book deal in June of the first lockdown kind of saved me, to be honest. And you'd gone back to your parents and just to deal with your immediate reality reality at that point you've been renting lots of different places and you were you were actually in an abusive

relationship yeah I was um I was one of the people on the news who kind of were trapped in a um in a house that wasn't safe um but the government hadn't changed the guidelines at that point I think none of us realized how bad it was and how common these relationships were. I remember that the, I think actually you covered it on the show, the incredible advert saying abusers always work from home. And it was really kind of shocking, but really enlightening. I think it was a horrible time, I think for lots of people because, you know, the streets weren't safe, but for some people they were safer than than their homes so I kind of fled London uh having lived there for kind of seven eight years after uni a lot of moving house um generation rents

which is awful um I think I moved something like 12 times in seven years, kind of hopping around, looking for something. And I don't think, you know, the search that we, the search that our 20s becomes, I don't think is unique. I think that's 20s are, our 20s are kind of a springboard for the rest of our life, I think. But I do think the conditions in which my generation, the millennial generation, lives now is unique. So a life of impermanence, really. And I had a great time, you know, there's lots of joy. And London was an exceptional place. But I do kind of credit the pandemic for locking me out

because I needed to go backwards. And I don't think I would have done that ever if I'd stayed. Yes. And what I was just going to say there is just to confirm you did get out of that particular abusive relationship. It allowed you the kind of space to realise that that wasn't right and it wasn't what you should be going forward with. But as you say, it allowed you to also look back and you realise perhaps, although generation rent is a norm, that you had also been running from something. Yes. Yeah, I did. I kind of, I was quite happy with a kind of very fast life before,

a kind of life of hedonism. You know, London's one of those places where it's not 24-7. I think that's the myth. But, you know, there's always something great to be doing. And I said yes to everything. And I didn't stop. So the pandemic was a massive shock. I mean, I think it was a shock for all of us that sitting still and going, you know, what the hell do we actually do when we're not working?

I mean, also, I'm always very minded at this point. Some people were not sitting still and some people, of course, working around the clock and depending on what their jobs were. But you're also right to reflect that for some it was the first time that they had had everything come out of the diary. Yeah. To just try and be on your own. And especially for single people, that was quite tough. But what I did when I was forced to look backwards and not forwards, which was how I run my entire life, was realise. I mean, if you've ever experienced sexual abuse you don't ever forget it it's not like that of course but I had an exceptional block um on an event which happened when I was 21 at a New Year's Eve party um where a friend of a friend um raped me I still can't say that word very easily it's a horrible word but um I told my friend and he said that the guy was always weird with girls um so I shut up and um

didn't speak about it for years and years and years and then I kind of only in the pandemic which was also the first time I had therapy um to kind of try and cope with the recent trauma of the abusive relationship that I'd left. And this guy trying to make me go back. And obviously I couldn't because I was locked in and that was a saving grace. I kind of saw my life as a domino, I don't know, domino stack? What are they called? You know what I mean, dominoes. The domino effect I don't know what, domino stack? What are they called? Those, you know, you know what I mean, dominoes. The domino effect through your life.

And so writing it was really kind of, it was the summer, like real heat wave. And my parents have a, sorry, there's more to hear. Yeah, no, I recognise what you're talking about. You're actually saying those things must be very hard, never mind writing it. Yeah, the word victim is awful. I think most people who've ever experienced

um trauma don't like to use that word if they can help it um because you don't want to be one of course you don't want these things to have happened to you so the language is the kind of first barrier I think for talking about it but yeah I realized I was kind of running away from from that and that I don't think I realized in my 20s how my relationships were so affected by that and how it made me um distrust men really I was kind of hopping from relationship to relationship and like the next man could fix the pain of the last or even kind of make up for their own gender in some ways which was ridiculous but because I never sat still and thought I never kind of gave myself the time for that consciousness I just didn't understand at all. Having gone back then like that and realized that thing right at the beginning of

your 20s that thing I shouldn't say I mean that event that you had run away from and kind of locked away and that attack has that changed, your understanding of your 20s? And how has your life changed since lockdown? It has, yeah, it has changed my idea of my 20s, I think. I mean, the piece I wrote in The Times over the weekend about that particularly was quite dark, but I kind of, it's important for me to really kind of drum in to myself but everyone else you know that it wasn't just a really bad time I mean anyone who's experienced trauma of any kind you can have a life full of full of greatness um but it was kind

of a surface level uh a surface level fine, maybe. It kind of allowed me, I think, or maybe forced me, pushed me to put up with a lot more in relationships than I think I would have, because basically nothing was as bad as that. And I stayed longer than I should with them. No, I went out with some great guys. They weren't all awful, but, you know, some of them might have a bit to answer for. Well, I think that that moment that you took will resonate with people and also, you know, not least what it's been like for lots of people in their 20s and perhaps they haven't really taken the time to think about that. So thank you for coming to share a bit of that today. And, you know, I suppose it's quite powerful in some ways because we're thinking back to that first stage of lockdown as well today and how people's lives were or weren't processing in the way that they were progressing, in the way that they would have hoped.

Or differently for you, perhaps going in a different direction that was great. Lucy Holden, the book's called Lucid, coming out next month. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello. I've got a story to tell you. It's called The Coming Storm, a new podcast series from BBC Radio 4 and the World Service. On January the 6th, 2021, a mob stormed the capital in Washington, D.C. It looked like a strange fantasy had gripped America, about how a cabal of satanic paedophiles had stolen an election. I'm Gabriel Gatehouse, and I've been looking for the origins of this twisted tale. It was a puzzle, and it kind of compiled a story. But what began as a quest to understand a conspiracy theory known as QAnon turned into something else, something bigger.

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