Woman's Hour - Rhod Gilbert on male fertility; teenage girls and social media; and talking to children about the Holocaust

Episode Date: January 27, 2021

Men don't talk about fertility and society largely views fertility as a woman's issue despite the fact that men are said to be a factor in around half of all fertility issues between couples. That's the view of the stand up comedian Rhod Gilbert who is raising awareness of the issue and wants men to open up and be part of the conversation. He's made a BBC documentary 'Stand up to Infertility' where he shares his own struggles to conceive with his wife Sian. Stand Up to Fertiliy is streaming now on BBC iPlayer and on BBC Two on Sunday 31st January at 10.00pm.A new study indicates teenage girls experience a sharper decline in well-being and self-esteem compared with boys due to “heavy social media use". It has also suggested that the pandemic might be making it worse. The report - by the think tank, the Education Policy Institute, and the Prince's Trust - calls on the government to act quickly to improve mental health support for schools in England. Emma is joined by Whitney Crenna-Jennings , the author of the report, and Matt Haig - the author and mental health campaigner who decided to leave twitter earlier this week - where he had nearly half a million followers. Today is International Holocaust Memorial Day where we remember the millions of people murdered by the Nazi regime. For decades, survivors have spoken about their experiences in the hope that nothing of its kind will ever be repeated. But when the last survivors are gone, who will tell their stories? And how do we talk to children about such harrowing events? Children’s author, Liz Kessler has written fictional a novel called When The World Was Ours that was inspired by the true story of her father’s escape from Czechoslovakia. Noemie Lopian is the daughter of Holocaust survivors Ernst Israel and Renee Bornstein. Ernest wrote The Long Night about his time in 7 different concentration camps and several death marches. They join Emma to discuss why it’s so important to talk to children about the Holocaust and the parallels between now and then.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. On today's Woman's Hour, remembering is on our minds as we take in the news that the UK's death toll from COVID-19 has passed 100,000. How do you remember people?

How do you keep their memories alive? How do you talk to children about the time we're living in? Today is also International Holocaust Memorial Day, and we'll be exploring such questions, albeit about very different circumstances, with two women whose parents lived through and survived the Nazi murderous regime, and now try to educate children about what happened.

And if you're homeschooling, we do hope that that discussion could be of use. So stay with us for that. But first, we're to be joined by the stand-up comedian Rod Gilbert, or Captain Infertility, as he has jokingly described himself in a new documentary to talk about just that, well, specifically male fertility. Men don't often talk about their fertility struggles and society largely views fertility as a woman's issue, despite the fact that men are said to be a factor in around half of all fertility issues between couples.

Half. Has this affected you, your partner, someone you care about? Have you been unable to discuss this, find a forum, even have the examinations to check. You can text Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate or on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Some of you have already been in touch on this or email us through our website. A message here that's just come in from Jane who says, women have all the intrusive investigations, have the operations, have to take the drugs, stop drinking, take the additional supplements.

Women told to relax and it will happen. Sperm issues are ignored and the blame put on women in the male dominated medical profession, as this message puts it. Another one here saying, my adoptive mother always felt everyone blamed her. This is so important to discuss. I'm very happy Rod's doing so and somehow that she wasn't a proper woman. More messages to that effect coming in and different experiences too. I'll come back to those very shortly,

but I should say our discussion with Rod is going to be frank this morning. We're not going to shy away from any bits of it. He certainly doesn't and he's known for his straight talking in his comedy. He wants men, Rod, to open up and be part of the conversation, so do get involved. bits of it he certainly doesn't and he's known for his straight talking in his comedy he wants men rod to open up and be part of the conversation so do get involved he's made a bbc documentary which is called stand up to infertility he being a stand-up of course and he does share his own

struggles to conceive and he talks in the documentary to his wife sean here's a taster of that program i'm about to go off to the clinic, fertility clinic, to several things, blood tests, sort of screening tests for HIV and Hep B and C, that kind of thing. And also to go and give a semen sample, which is, I find very, very very embarrassing this is not my first time thank God because that was the worst time no doubt about it and I'm feeling well I hate doing this I'm feeling just just self-conscious and embarrassed and shy and nervous and just dreading sort of catching people's eye, people recognising me. It's just awful.

Rod Gilbert, listening back to that. How do you feel? Good morning. Oh, it's making me feel a bit sick. I thought it might. I mean, I've got to say... I've got a nervous tummy just listening to it. You know, it's crazy. Yeah. No, but respect because, you know, you were feeling like that anyway.

And then you've put it on television. Yes. Yeah. Weirdly, I think I find it easier to do that than I do to talk about it as me, the person. I've never spoken about it to anybody not and i and i think that's why i did the documentary is because i've never spoken to friends or family nobody whatsoever about my what i've been what i've been going through um and uh yeah i sort of i mean that i've got my hands have gone a bit clammy I feel my stomach's gone a bit weird listening to that back, but, but, but I do find that easier sort of somehow doing the performer me, you know, I've been talking about it on stage while I've been doing the documentary.

And, uh, I find that easier than talking as me, the person, you know. Which I think is incredibly striking and very important to say at the outset because you found this, didn't you? Many men feeling like this. You put out an advert for men to come talk to you. Was there about seven of you in the end in the pub? Yeah, exactly seven. I mean, that was, I put a global shout out. You know, one of the things I found was that,

I didn't, I'd have to say say I wasn't in that surprised really. So there weren't for me. There were some surprises in this documentary, but not many. I have to say most of it just confirmed and reaffirmed time after time after time the same. But do you know what I found? You know, so, yeah, seven of us anyway. Yeah, I put a shout out on social media, a global shout out. Any men want a safe space to talk to somebody who's been through it themselves anywhere in the world. Seven men. We all met up. 100% turnout. Seven of us in a pub. But I was going to say the thing I did find surprising and I've actually been through IVF is that I didn't know that men and men's health accounted for around half of fertility issues.

I didn't know that. No, no, and that's one of the surprising, not surprising things in this documentary, I think. I mean, you know, it's why on earth should it be a surprise that really that men account for 50% of this? We're half the population. We're one half of the, you know, usually one half of the business know usually one half of the

of the business yeah and um so why would it be a surprise and yet i think it it took me totally by surprise as well it's because of the way we look at fertility in the society we we see it as a female issue there's no question about it in my mind and and i did a little experiment in cardiff you know where i gave people the option of, you know, what percentage of sort of fertility issues do you think that men are in any way involved, account for? And most people went for somewhere around, I picked, I put 50% in the middle and I picked a few other random figures, 10%. Some people went for that. But most people sort of hedged it around the 30% kind of mark. You know, and that didn't surprise me at all.

I set that experiment up because I thought that would be the case. Yes. Well, it's also the way that the kind of industry around fertility has grown up, isn't it? You also go to a fertility fair and you only find one stand in this huge, you know, pre-COVID days, but this huge exhibition space dedicated to men. And you yourself, you found out about your own sperm, haven't you? Yes, yeah, yeah. So I started off, day one of our filming was at the fertility exhibition in Kensington. And yeah, there was, I don't know how many stands there were.

There were, you know, over 100, I think I say in the documentary. And then there was one Professor Sheena Lewis, who's sort of on the chair of British Andrologists, I think is her title. So she, yeah, she was there on her own one stand sort of focusing specifically on men. But yeah, I mean, I've had lots of semen analysis in lots of different places over the years and and happy to say that I one of the things that came out in the documentary was me I'm trying to get men to engage more talk about it more think about it more and I I've done that myself I'm the target I'm the target audience for this documentary as well as as well as the the host you're you're looking at it yeah I'm the host and I'm the target audience I'm preaching to myself you know all of this is about overcome trying to get past some of the stigma and embarrassment and the shame of it well i've i feel all that stigma and that shame and embarrassment

so i've got to get past it um i think the other thing that you said that really struck a chord with me is that men often hang around in the background of these conversations so when you go to the fertility clinic or if you go to a fair, it's often men sort of walking behind and then the woman taking the lead. And what we're getting through from some of our messages from our female listeners, but we're also hearing from some of our male listeners, of which we have many, is that women often blame themselves. They take it on themselves.

This is my job because obviously the baby's going into their body. You know, I've got to handle this. But actually, you know, they could save themselves some heartache if the men were investigated earlier. Yes, yeah, and that's not my job really to comment on the way the industry works or has grown up, as you said. But certainly part of the reason I started this documentary is because I observed that in all of our dealings on this,

and perhaps it's partly because our dealings in fertility started with Sian's endometriosis. And so we'd been going to see people as a couple of people. It was always about her endometriosis. And then we sort of ended to see people as a couple of people. It was always about her and Demetrius. And then we sort of ended up in fertility treatment and things. But Sian is always the person who sits next to whoever we're talking to, whether that person is a nurse taking blood samples, a gynecologist, it doesn't matter who it is, a GP. Sian always sits next to them.

And I always sit on, I'm like best supporting actor on the outside. And always. And Sian takes the, you know, really, next to them and I always sit on I'm like best supporting actor on the outside and always and and Sian takes the you know really they need to I think I rock up at the clinic when when needed or we go together but but I'm not really I'm not the point of contact if there's a phone call from the clinic Sian would take and I sort of thought is it is this just me because because when I sat and thought about it when I got home I thought but I'm I thought I'm quite happy doing not happy is the wrong word but I'm I'm I'm I'm you want to be involved I want to be involved but equally I'm I'm I'm not asking questions when I'm there at the

clinic like we've both got issues but it's it's not just her endometriosis and various other things we've both got stuff and and but I realized that I was I was sort of quite sort of happy that the focus wasn't on me and I didn't ask questions and I didn't put myself forward and I was happy to sit on the outside in my best supporting actor role and I I wasn't engaged enough and I and I just thought is this I bet I'm not alone here yes because it's so embarrassing and and emasculating and and shameful that the things and that you you don't want the spotlight on you i was quite happy for shan't to be to have it on her shoulders happy is the wrong word there no but a lot of people i

let it happen so i'm ashamed of myself i let it i let it happen a lot of people will understand that no you're not. You're definitely not. I say, what message is coming in? One just saying, talking, Rod just talking now about his journey with male fertility on Women's Hour right now. It's an incredibly brave conversation. And these conversations are crucial for raising awareness of these issues. You talk about the spotlight there.

Can we just listen to, we've got a clip of you doing stand-up where you are very comfortable with the spotlight on you about this issue. Let's have a listen. You know, men, men account for 50% of all fertility issues, but you would never think that. And you won't see it happening. You know, there's no, you don't get a little red light comes on on the side of your balls when you're running low. You won't get a letter from the DVLA in Swansea telling you your spunk's up at the end of the month. This documentary is going to have a poster.

It's going to say, low sperm count. You won't see it coming. Ba-dum-bum. Very good, Rod. Lots of jokes like that in the documentary. So if that's not your cup of tea, let's avoid it. No, I watched it last night with a cup of tea

and I thought it was excellent. And it was also beautifully written. I didn't know how many puns there could be, but you seem to have mined them all. And there was a conversation in the documentary with the writer, with the poet Benjamin Zephaniah, which I also found really emotional. And I wondered if I could ask you,

because you've been on this journey for six years with your wife, Sian. And he talked about how he felt, you know, seeing men with kids and being in the playground. And that's a conversation I've had when I couldn't get pregnant for a long time. And also I've heard it with other women. I hadn't heard it between two men before. And I just wonder, how do you feel about when you see kids and now I know you're still on this journey. And of course, many people had their IVF pause during lockdown. I think I don't think there is one answer to that. I think it's changed over the years.

You know, I've had moments of that and I've had moments where it's been difficult to hear about other friends. Sometimes it's a hard thing to admit, but sometimes it's a little bit of your brain thinking, what about us? Sometimes when your friends have kids and stuff and other people around you, you're always very pleased for them, but there's always that little voice in the back of your head somewhere as well, which I'm not proud of.

And he says the same thing, actually. He's quite embarrassed, quite ashamed. He's not proud of that behavior, that you're sort of looking enviously at other people. I've had those moments, but they come and go, really. You know, generally, I'm sort of philosophical about the whole thing. We both are, Sian and I. I read in a newspaper article this week

that somebody said I was desperate for a child. I wouldn't use those words. I've never used those words. And nor would Sian, I don't think. You know, and partly we haven't let ourselves be desperate because that's just not the way we are. No, but I think it's just having actually interviewed a few couples whose IVF was stopped

at the beginning of lockdown. I was so struck by how lockdown's a very intense time anyway, but it's just even harder if you're going through something like that because you almost can't get away from yourself. Yeah, yeah. And so it all stopped. So we were filming this documentary pre-COVID, as you say, and the gig there that you heard,

that was the sort of culmination of the documentary. We filmed that in February 2020 in Swansea. And then, of course, everything stopped. And so the documentary we filmed that in February 2020 in Swansea and um uh and then of course everything stopped and so the documentary stopped um the filming of the documentary stopped my campaign that I just launched this infertility campaign that's finally getting some momentum that stopped and under all treatment stopped for us and for everybody else so so then it started again and we've got back into it you know and we and we're, and we're back into it now, but yeah, that was yeah. I mean, yeah, we, we haven't found the, I say this, I mean,

maybe you should get Sean on, but I think, I think we're right. I think reading and hearing about other people's IVF stories, I don't think we have found it as traumatic as some other people. And that's partly to do, this is Sian's sort of place to talk about this, but it's partly to do with endometriosis. Yes, no, and how that affects it and also what goes on with that. Well, perhaps we could talk to Sian at another point specifically about that, but we really appreciate you talking to us today. Hymn Fertility was the name and is the name of the campaign. If people want to get in touch, Rod, or get involved, are you going to revive it now a bit

more since the doc's gone out? Yeah, absolutely. What I want to do, I mean, it's difficult at the moment, but we've got the Hymn Fertility website. Hymn Fertility website is there. There's information on there about improving sperm counts for those that are able to uh not just sperm counts quality of the sperm um and there is you know i'm trying to what i want to do now is get the momentum back that i had a year ago so as hopefully as the world opens up this year i want i want i want to do more of those groups that i did in cardiff i i i'd like to to to go you know, not large venues. We're not going to be doing arenas just yet, but I think, you know, I'd like to go to a pub in Oldham

or Edinburgh or Glasgow, whatever, you know. And talk. If we can get a little group of men together who've been through similar things and get us talking, then I'm really up for that. But we've got this website. The next thing really is for me to try and work with a charity like the Fertility Network UK and to try and bring them in

so that the campaign has that kind of expertise, resources, you know, behind it really, so that they take on the campaign with me in it. Well, good luck, Rod. You've started the conversation again here on Woman's Hour. And I'm sure you will get many people being in touch on your website and in other ways too. We've got so many messages coming in.

I'm really grateful. Thank you for your time this morning. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks. Rod Gilbert there. I'm always tweeting Woman's Hour reads this message, but this interview and these interviews have been amazing recently.

Rod Gilbert talking about male infertility this morning has been enlightening. Keep your messages coming in. The number you need 84884844, excuse me, to text or on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, a story in the news today is regarding a new study indicating teenage girls experiencing a sharper decline in well-being and self-esteem compared with boys and the study has suggested that the pandemic might be making it worse. The report by the think tank the Education Policy Institute and the Prince's Trust calls on the government to act quickly to improve mental health support for schools in England. I'm joined now by the author of the report Whitney Crenna Jennings and also Matt Haig the author

and mental health campaigner who decided to leave Twitter earlier this week where he had nearly half a million followers. And we'll come on to that in just a moment. But Whitney, welcome to the programme. Your report shows that well-being and self-esteem are similar in boys and girls until the end of primary school. But after that, they both decline and then a greater decline in girls by the age of 14. Tell us more. Yeah. So as you say, the transition from childhood to adolescence, we've found seems to be a turning point for young people's mental health and not just depressive symptoms, but things like well-being and happiness in different areas of life,

things like self-esteem and how a young person feels about themselves, feels about themselves in relation to others. area of self-esteem, of happiness with personal appearance. You know, we see the proportion of girls who are unhappy with how they look double from the period of childhood to early adolescence. So it's a concern across the board. It's a concern especially for girls. And it's a concern, the board it's a concern especially for girls and it's a concern uh uh you know in our current uh context when we know that uh young people are missing out on some of the you know things that are really important for their for their mental health and what role is social media playing yeah so so this piece of research looks at a wide array of factors in

young people's lives and how they're coming to the mental health. We do find that social media, regardless of pre-existing levels of well-being and self-esteem, is associated with or predicts worse well-being and worse self-esteem primarily in girls. So this, you know, it makes sense. It ties into sort of body image issues that girls deal with. We spoke to some young people in focus groups as part of this research. And girls really talked about how social media and heavy use of social media has a negative impact on how they see themselves. They negatively compare themselves with peers. They feel as if they can't. If I may, let me bring in Matt Haig at this point, because, Matt, I know that you've got your own connections to this this week, as we just mentioned, which we'll come to in a minute. But where do you come in on this with the whole girls and boys and what you've seen and the work you've done with mental health?

Yeah, I mean, this actually is very personal to me in terms of members of my extended family and teenagers I know and yeah I mean anecdotally I'm not you know swamped in the data on this but anecdotally yeah I mean I can think of teenage girls I know and I'm related to that you know say, 12, 13, 14, and then certain mental health issues arose and it tied, whether coincidentally or directly, to their increased use of social media. So I think there's partly a chicken and egg situation where you're trying to think, well, you know, if you're, and I know it from my own personal experience, if you're feeling low in terms of self-esteem, often you are drawn to social media,

which then in turn lowers your self-esteem because of the way you're using social media. So I think it does, you know, qualify as an addictive substance in that sense for that kind of age group. And I do think there will definitely be gender distinctions. My only note of tiny scepticism I would put is that historically, with a lot of mental health studies, there has occasionally been, when you look at the gender split, it's sometimes hard to analyse exactly the difference because, for instance, in studies of depression with men, they've often been reticent or less alert to their own issues.

And perhaps not speaking up about it. I'll put that point back in just a moment. Why did you come off Twitter? You've got a lot of followers there. Well, I should have come off Twitter years ago. I honestly, I feel like I was addicted to Twitter so I think that in itself was a reason I the level of abuse you know you hear it time and time again but as your follower count goes up the level of abuse as you know Emma increases especially if you're a strange combination of thin-skinned and opinionated, which I am, which is not a great combination for Twitter.

So, yeah, and I do not, it's one of those strange things. I do not miss it. It was hard to come off, though. I've tried lots of times. I've given up cigarettes in my life. I've given up alcohol in my life. And both of those things were easier than coming off Twitter, which sounds pathetic, but that was true.

Are you feeling better for it? I am feeling better for it. I'm feeling more creative for it. I've got more time. I'm less angry at the world and I'm less continually offended and I'm feeling a lot better. It wasn't so much about other people's behaviour. That was part of it. But it was my own behaviour. I didn't particularly like myself when I was on Twitter. I would become slightly worried and angry and I'd put that out into the world

and I didn't think I was actually contributing what I could be contributing else. That's very interesting. How it makes you feel, Whitney, but also how you are on it. For younger people, perhaps, who could listen to this or think about this, that's a very good point, isn't it? Yeah, I think so.

I mean, it is on young people to some extent the way that they engage with social media. And I think, you know, Matt's absolutely right that if you are feeling low, way that they engage with social media. And I think, you know, Matt's absolutely right that if you are feeling low, you're more likely to perhaps spend more time online. Our research, in fact, shows that kind of taking into account mental health or feelings of depression, even kind of holding that constant, really heavy social media usage still contributes to worse well-being and self-esteem.

So, you know, it's likely that the relationship works both ways, but we do see it definitely working in this way. And social media is heavy use linking to kind of worse well-being. And the pandemic has made it more intense, perhaps, as well. Yeah. So, I mean, I think there's sort of two sides to social media use during the pandemic, you know, with young people being stuck at home, schools being closed, it's been a really important way for them to stay in touch with their friends, to stay connected, to access social support networks, you know, at the same time, they are probably spending much more time online. And we know that, you know, depending on the types of usage, you know, if you're about to do scrolling or just spending hours staring at your feed,

we know that certain types of heavy usage like that are damaging. So I think, you know, coming out of this pandemic, it's possible we'll see sort of long-term effects, negative effects on well-being. But at the same time, it's been, you know, a lifeline for a lot of young people.

It has. Whitney Craner Jennings, thank you for your time. Matt Haig, are you going to stay off it? You know, there'll be people listening to this thinking I've never been on it and I never want to now having heard this. And then there'll be others, of course, who have a completely different experience. Do you think you can stay off it? Like perhaps you've stayed off other things in your life? Yes, I think so. I'm quite an all or nothing person. So I'm thinking so. I mean, my publishers might want to borrow it to promote things, but I'm still off it i i'm i'm touch wood i can do this i'm gonna do it good luck matt hay thank you there uh you can get in touch with us i should say with some irony on social media about this

and in wales all schools um have have to have counsellors just talking about young people here and mental health support i remember the brit British Association of Counselling and Psychotherapy calling for this in England years ago. This is a message from James. Why do we have a system that makes changes to promote mental well-being so slow? We need to get that better. Another one from Rebecca.

When your 16-year-old daughter says no one's listening about how she feels regarding her GCSEs and the news just keeps banging on about teenage mental health, the irony. Rebecca, thanks for that message. Keep them coming in at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, today is International Holocaust Memorial Day, where we remember the millions of people

murdered by the Nazi regime. For decades, survivors have spoken about their experiences to lots of people and a lot of the time focusing their attention on schools and they do that in the hope that nothing of this kind will ever be repeated. But when the last survivors are gone, who will tell their stories and how do we talk to children about such harrowing events? We're mindful that many of you will be homeschooling at the moment so we hope this discussion could also be useful for that on a day like today.

Children's author Liz Kessler, she's playing her part by writing a fictional novel called When the World Was Ours, inspired by the true story of her Jewish father's escape from Czechoslovakia. The novel is about three young friends growing up during the Holocaust. Leo, inspired by Liz's father, who managed to escape to England and grow up as an immigrant. Max, an Austrian boy who ends up in the Hitler Youth. And Elsa, who is sent to Auschwitz. We're also joined by Noemi Lopian, the daughter of Holocaust survivors Ernst Israel and René Bornstein. Ernst wrote the book The Long Night in 1967 about his time in seven different concentration camps and several death marches. It was translated into English by Noemi, who's continued that work by educating children in schools.

Noemi, we'll come to you shortly, but Liz, to come to you first. Good morning. Good morning. Hi, thanks for having me. You grew up knowing the Holocaust was part of your history. How did your parents talk to you, though, about what had happened? Do you know, I've been thinking about this recently and obviously with the book coming out. And I feel like it was something that was almost sort of always there. I don't remember being sat down and, you know, the kind of we must have a conversation about this. We've got something terrible to tell you. It's almost like it's sort of always just been.

It's always been a part of the background even my dad's story you know which was so incredible I tried to pinpoint when I first realized that my dad had escaped due to an amazing stroke of good fortune but it feels like it's something that's just always sort of been inside me you know almost part of my DNA I guess that stroke of good fortune is regarding a letter. Yeah, I mean, it's just incredible, really. The short version is that my dad was four years old in 1934, living in Vienna, Jewish family,

and he went on a ride on a Danube steamer with his father, my grandfather. And in the course of this boat trip trip my dad was kneeling on a seat his father told him to be careful not to scuff the dress of the woman who just sat down next to him and this led the woman and her husband who were an English couple uh there for a dental conference to get into conversation with my grandfather they missed their stop my grandfather said come back with me instead come and meet my wife have a sacrosanct day i'll show you around vienna um and then they got they the joneses sent them a thank you letter a little while later and in fact that letter five years later was the only thing that they had to that

could provide an affidavit they that they needed in order to get out of czechoslovakia which is where they were then. Without that, their attempts to leave the country at that point would have come to, ground to a halt. So, yeah. Incredible. Incredible. I've got to ask, how did you approach then writing about the Holocaust for young readers?

A lot of people listening homeschooling, as we've said, trying to think about how you do this and how you talk about difficult events. Yeah, so so I've known it's probably been about 10 years that I've had the idea in the back of my mind that I wanted to write something that was inspired by my dad's story uh but I I always and my dad you know would occasionally say to me oh you know you're the writer in the family why don't you write a book about it but I always knew that I wanted to write not so much my dad's actual story, but the story of what if that moment had not happened.

And, you know, I'm an author for young people and have been for nearly 20 years. So I was always going to write it for young people. I think the important thing for me is that it's told from, like you said, from the perspective of three young people. They start age nine in 1936 and it moves up to 1945. So they grow with the book. So the telling of the story through their eyes is one thing. I didn't want to shy away from the truth. It was very important

to me that the book was authentic and real and truthful and respectful to not just my heritage but that you know the facts of this awful period um but it was equally important for me that it had at its heart hope and kindness and that for me in talking to young people it's about trying to strike that balance I don't think we should lie I don't think we should pretend things didn't happen I don't think we should overwhelm with brutal, horrific facts either. So, you know, treading that line through writing this book was one of the most important and possibly one of the most difficult aspects of it. It was good advice there. Thank you for that. The character of Elsa is based on your family's

history and was influenced by a great aunt, I understand, who was murdered at Auschwitz. Could you read, I know you're going to read us a short extract from the book now, which I think kind of speaks to this, how you talk to children. And it's a bit where Elsa's being told by her parents she's being sent away. So if you didn't mind doing that, we'd be very grateful. Yeah, I'd love to.

And can I just say, by the way, that Elsa was, yeah, the character's name for my great aunt. And during my research trip, we went to Auschwitz and we found her name in the Book of Names and said Kaddish while we held the page open. And it was one of the most special and moving moments. I should say that's the Jewish mourners prayer. Yes, that's right. So this is about halfway through the book and this is a section of Elsa's.

I rub my eyes and stare at my parents. You can't be serious, Otto says. You're sending us away. This has to be some kind of a joke, right? Vati turns towards my brother. Do we look like we're joking, Otto, he asks, his voice husky and dark. But things aren't really so bad, are they? I ask. How bad do you want them to get, Elsa? Batty replies. It's not enough that neither you nor Otto is allowed to join the youth groups with all the other children. Not enough

that I have no work, that you are not allowed to walk in the park, ride your bicycles, go swimming. Not enough that our friends are disappearing on a daily basis. Mutti puts her hand on his arm. Darling, go gently on the children. They don't need to think about all this. But Stella, that's just it. They do need to think about all this. We have to face what's happening. We are facing it, Mutti replies calmly. I'm with you on this decision. But still, we don't need to ram it down their throats. Vati lets out a breath. Very well, he says. But the decision is made. We just have to sit tight and wait till we are given our date.

Mutti is crying openly now. My babies believe me. If we thought we had any other options, we would take them. But why can't you come with us? Otto asks. My big brother, the one who always tries so hard to be tough and strong and capable, sounds as scared as me. They won't let us, Vati replies, but you children have a chance. Mutti kneels in front of Otto and me. She takes our hands. You are the most important things in our lives, she says. There is

nothing that I care about as much as you. Then why are you sending us away, I ask. My throat hurts and I can barely get the words out. Because we want you to live, Vati says simply. Thank you so much for that, Liz. Very powerful indeed. Let me bring in Noemi at this point, who has also been thinking a lot about how to bring survivors' stories to life and those who, of course, perished. And you've been talking to children, and I know you've got a project called Holocaust Matters, which in regular times does go into schools or is part of an education toolkit.

Noemi, how do you broach the conversation with children? What have you thought about? Hi, Emma. It's Holocaust Matters. It's the website that I set up after publishing my father's book, The Long Night, in English, in England in 2016. It was originally in German and I translated it. When I go, I believe that it's important regarding Holocaust education to tell the human story,

not just the history, that we have to connect, especially because it happened a long time ago. And so I believe in something called layering, that you already start in primary school. And of course, the Holocaust was the end of a huge thing. It didn't start, we hear this phrase now more and more frequently, with the Holocaust. It started with prejudice,

human behaviour that didn't respect other human beings. So in primary school, I took my mum in because she was 10 and that's year five, that's 10 year old children. And I actually had the help of a local psychologist. He was the one that encouraged me and actually gave me the permission to go into primary school because I myself thought the children were too young and I was frightened of damaging the children. And we had many meetings with a headmaster, with a head teacher and the form teachers. I myself thought the children were too young and I was frightened of damaging the children. And we had many meetings with a headmaster, with a head teacher and the form teachers. And it was done in such a way that they had a project throughout the year about how they should behave to each other. And the message is we don't all like each other, but we don't have to act.

We don't have to hurt and certainly not kill. And so it comes back to bullying or playground behaviour. And they had various projects in their English classes, in their math classes. It wasn't just specially, you know, during history lessons. It was all about human behaviour. Because what happened then can happen today, maybe in a different form. We're all capable human beings of good and evil. And what feedback do you get from the children?

I must say the children were absolutely amazing. It startled me because they were so young. So I didn't know what to expect. But actually, they were the most amazing audience. The questions didn't stop they all had their hands up they all engaged and what was even more surprising to me is how adult like they were they weren't perhaps nuanced like an adult but the thoughts were very much the same on adult thinking and so I think we do have to start young to teach about human behavior. We're all inherently prejudiced, unfortunately, and social media picks up on that because they keep offering us our own echo chambers. So we have to educate. It's not something that we carry within us to understand different and to tolerate difference. And to, you know, as we get older, we learn so much from being different.

Not only do we learn, but we learn exponentially. It really fires us up. And it's a wonderful thing, differences. To bring Liz back in, you know, people talking about, as Noemi was just saying, there are parallels to draw between events of the day that we're in now and events gone past and how we have to be very vigilant. What would you say on that theme?

Yeah, I mean, this was something that was always important to me when I started writing the book, that I didn't want to write a history book. I didn't want it to be something that was about the past in itself. I felt that it's really important that it's something that young people, it's like Noemi says, it's a jumping off point. I think you have to be appropriate for different ages. So my book, for example, is aimed at 12 plus, and it's not suitable for primary schools, I would say. Can I just say very quickly on that? We just had an email saying,

11-year-old children are far too young to be taught about the Holocaust. My daughter's been left very upset and anxious. There'll come a time to learn about it, but 11 is far too young. Let children be children. What would you say to that, Liz? And I'll bring Noemi in again. Yeah, I mean, the important thing is, as we've been saying, that you have to be extremely careful about making sure

that what you do is age appropriate. I was adamant that this book is not a book to go into primary schools because it does get quite upsetting and because I was determined not to be dishonest about the facts it's not I don't wallow in them but you know they're there especially towards the end of the book and I think you have to be very careful I don't think that Eleven is too young to, for example, you know, talk like we've been saying about prejudice and about people being kind to each other. And essentially, that's the heart of my book. But I think that you, as you get older, you can obviously go deeper with the subject matter. And it's important to make sure that

you don't. Yes. And Noemi, would you? But don't patronise, but you don't go too far too young. Noemi, would you agree with that? Yes, and perhaps what I should have mentioned in the project for Year 5, on Year 5, children aged 10, 9 to 10, we did it throughout the year. There were little mini projects. And the beauty was that the children could come

to their form teacher any time during play, any time they had a thought. They had the same teacher throughout the year. It was very safe. It was done pedagogically safe. And I think we can teach the beginnings of human characteristics and values and behaviour. Noemi Lopian, thank you for your time. You translated, as you say, your father's book, The Long Night, in 1967. And Liz Kessler, who read us an extract from her fictional novel, When the World Was Ours, which was inspired by the story of her Jewish father's escape from Czechoslovakia. For those of you who are homeschooling and keen to teach your children about the Holocaust, you can find Holocaust Memorial Day teaching resources for primary and secondary school on the BBC Teach website. So many of you have been in touch. Thank you so much for this because we started the programme talking to Rod Gilbert about fertility and specifically male fertility.

Karen emailed saying, after a few years unsuccessfully trying to conceive in my 30s, I was diagnosed with polycystic ovaries. My partner of 10 years couldn't face being investigated as he'd been in and out of hospital with chronic asthma and the early steroid treatments had really affected him and his life choices. This effectively put an end to any treatment I might have had. I respected this, but his inability to talk about it all meant a gradual breakdown in our relationship. And we separated recently after 24 years of drifting apart.

It took me two years after my diagnosis to get him to say anything at all, as he literally couldn't speak when I tried to talk about it. We never argued. He said later he couldn't face having yet another thing wrong with him, which was terribly sad. We're on good terms, but he remains sort of stuck in his life. Shafika says, I feel really sad to hear how little things have changed.

I had IVF several times in the early 90s, and it wasn't until way into the treatment that my husband's fertility was considered. Of course, apart from the nurses, all the doctors were male in our instance. Thank you for discussing this. But Helen says, how far we've come. We had IVF in the 80s because my husband had a low sperm count. In those days, talking about infertility at all was taboo, let alone because the man had the diagnosis. We never told anyone, and I only let my children know when my husband died. Wow, it's wonderful that people can talk about this now.

And you are doing that. Please continue to do so at BBC Women's Hour or email us via the Women's Hour website. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. A new podcast series from BBC Radio 4. In the first stage of a poltergeist haunting, the entity will confine itself to making noise as if it's testing its victims.

The Battersea Poltergeist. My name is Shirley Hitchens. I'm 15 years old. I live with my mum, dad, brother, gran and Donald. Subscribe to The Battersea Poltergeist on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.