Woman's Hour - Ricki Lake talks about latest project. Sexual abuse in the navy. China protests. Camilla's Squad.

Episode Date: November 28, 2022

Ricki Lake is widely known for her American talk show in the '90s and early 2000s. She's an actor and a producer as well as an independent filmmaker. Emma talks to her about her role as Executive Producer, on a new documentary "The Business of Birth Control" which looks at the complex relationship between hormonal birth control and women's health and liberation. The head of the Royal Navy has defended the way the service handles allegations of rape and sexual abuse. Admiral Sir Ben Key says the Navy had changed how it investigates complaints. His defence follows a very memorable interview earlier this month with a woman we called 'Catherine' . She called for the complaints process to be made independent of the Royal Navy. He gave his response on yesterday's Broadcasting House. Over the weekend we learned that Camilla, the Queen Consort, has created a squad of her own. Rather than opting for ladies-in-waiting, she will instead be helped by "Queen's companions". Camilla has picked six of her closest friends and their role will include helping her at public events. We hear from journalist Claire Cohen, author of 'BFF? The Truth about Female Friendship.' Extraordinary protests in China grew over the weekend as people in cities across the country demonstrate their frustration at President Xi Jinping’s zero-covid approach, with some people calling for him to resign. Noticeable among these protestors are the numbers of young women, being called the ‘prominent voices’ of the action. Yuan Ren is a Chinese journalist and former editor of Time Out Beijing, and Isabel Hilton is the founder of China Dialogue, a non-profit independent organisation that works to promote an understanding of China's challenges,. Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Another week, here we go. And today we're starting the programme with a chant I haven't heard for a while. Ricky, Ricky. As I interview Ricky Lake, who's turned her hand to documentary making on issues pertaining to women's lives.

This time, hormonal contraception. Also in today's programme, finally, a response from the Royal Navy. The first sea lord, no less, to our interview with Catherine two weeks ago. A woman you may recall broke her silence about being raped while serving on a ship. She became pregnant as a result, and then a senior colleague suggested she have an abortion. She didn't and kept the baby. Now we hear from the first sea lord.

Well, certainly my colleagues did on Broadcasting House yesterday, and we'll let you know what was said. And friendship, the power of those bonds to help you in the workplace, not just on the home front. Of course, any stories that come to mind, let me know on 84844. That's the number you can text me or get in touch on social media or email us through the Women's Hour website. But today we're also going to hear about young women emerging as a prominent voice of these extraordinary protests in China against COVID-0, the policy that's brought very strict lockdowns and difficulties

to millions across the country for months on end. As one commentator put it, women have less to lose from protesting and more to gain, potentially, in China's patriarchal society. And having faced the brunt of these lockdowns, ending up handling the bulk of domestic chores plus childcare and, in some cases, domestic violence with nowhere to run. We will be hearing more details about why these protests

are quite so extraordinary. All that to come. But first, my guest today, the very first guest, I should say, you may remember her from her American TV talk show, Rikki Lake, which started in the 90s. I know, I can't quite remember. I can't quite believe it's been that long. All that she was only when it began, 24. I remember her being so much older to me, it seemed, and wiser and trying to be a conduit

for all these conversations. Or you may remember her as Tracy Turnblad in the 1988 movie, Hairspray. Well, now the actor, TV host, TV producer, has turned her hand to filmmaking and released her second documentary as an executive producer with her creative partner and director Abby Epstein after they first looked in their first film at the

business of giving birth. The new documentary is called The Business of Birth Control and it examines the oral contraceptive pill and hormonal contraception taken generally at the moment. Of course, looking at this in a way about women's lives and liberation. 60 years after the pill was hailed as revolutionising women's lives, the documentary aims to look at that complex relationship between hormonal birth control and women's health and liberation. And it's elicited strong responses from the critics. We come on to this film and the response. But first, I had to start my conversation with Rikki Lake by reflecting on her time as the youngest nationally syndicated

TV talk show host in America. When I was thinking about talking to you, it felt really weird not to begin this with Rikki, Rikki, Rikki. So I didn't resist the temptation. I had to do it because as you say on your Instagram, I did grow up with you, which must be a response you get from a lot of people. It's so, it's, it's so interesting because I've been around for a really long time, but I started very young, you know, Hairspray, which everyone knows that John Waters film was my first film at 18.

So and then five years later, I went on to do the Ricky Lake show. So, yeah, I've been in people's living rooms for a very, very long time. You were 24. Is that right? When you began? Technically, Emma, I was 23 when I got the job and did the pilot. So I 23, I did the pilot, which was 30 years ago this year. It was in 1992. I did the pilot. And then 93, we went on the air and I was 24. And then I stayed on until I was 35. Yeah. The youngest person to have a syndicated talk show I was reading.

And for me, because you were older than me, you were so wise and you were telling me things or facilitating conversations. I thought I didn't, I didn't put an age on you. But when I read that this morning, I was like, well, well, it was all a facade. To be honest, in the beginning, when I got the job, I just channeled Oprah. I would just like say, OK, what would Oprah say? What would she do? And yeah, you know, they dress me and tried to make me look as mature as

possible in the beginning because they wanted people to take me seriously. But truthfully, like I didn't have real life experience experience then I didn't have a sense of who I was and yet I was in this role of moderating and giving advice and being a role model it was just kind of I mean I look back on it and who I am now 30 years later I mean I just am such a more evolved person obviously the material that I make now is just like a different level of content you know do you see yourself because this will feed into what we're about to talk about but do you see yourself as an actor a talk show host or now do you see yourself more as a journalist or a documentary maker I don't see myself as a journalist because I'm not someone I never studied journalism but

I'm just someone that's like a public person who's been super open about my own life and hardships and triumphs. And I also am like, I love people. I love relationships. And so, you know, I sort of looked at my old show as sort of modern-day therapy and anthropology, like studying human nature and stuff. So I'm all of the above.

I mean, I consider myself to be a filmmaker, a mother. And, you know, I'm still growing. I be a filmmaker a mother and and and I you know I'm still growing I'm still like a work in progress but I feel like I'm putting out really important work work that is meaningful to me and that's really what where it stems from you know like I I want to be really like like like into the work that I do and I I could not be more into the the projects that I do with with my partner Abby Epstein well I was going to say, your other partner, you're also newlywed, if you're going to be listening. I am. I wanted to say congratulations.

Thank you. Yeah, we're coming up January 2nd of this year is when we got married. And we pinch ourselves. I mean, we're both empty nesters. I don't know if that's a term you use in the UK where our kids are out of the house. We have six kids between us. And, you know, I lost my last partner to mental illness and suicide. So I, to be in a place where I'm with someone who is my,

my partner, and we are so joy filled and happy at this time in our lives. It's really, it feels like a miracle, you know. On what you said about Oprah, I always wanted to ask you and, and people like her, do you all know each other? Is there a bit of a talk show host union, you know, like you, Sally, Jesse, Raphael, Montel, Oprah? As a British girl, now woman, I look to all of you. Yes, there's no club. I don't get to go to some private club with them.

And I don't have Oprah's phone number. But I have known her through the years. She was incredibly generous to me in the beginning. When I started my show, before I went on the air, she invited me to Chicago to see the way she worked. I went to her Oprah or Harpo Studios and got the tour and sat in on her production meeting and was in the studio watching the taping.

And it was a very, very kind gesture that I never forgot, that she was really, like, wanting me to learn through her. And it was amazing. So, to answer your question, no, I don't, I can't call her on speed dial. I wish I could. To you and what else you're doing at the business of birth control is your latest documentary film working with your, your creative partner, the director, Abby Epstein, you're the executive producer.

Why did you want to look at the way birth control has come into women's lives and how it's evolved? The theme, the overall theme in all of our films is informed choice, you know, and having access to the information to make an empowered and informed decision about your body and your baby, you know? And so that's really the theme. It's really about not telling women what to do, but really talking about options. And in the case of, you know, with hormonal birth control, there is so much to know and consider before you start taking a drug, sometimes at 13 years of age for acne or for period cramps, that really impacts who a woman is on a foundational level. Do you not think then, when you were thinking of even doing this, but now having actually watched the film myself, do you not think women,

even when they're younger and they usually go to the doctors with their parents, often their mother, do you not think that girls and women are informed of the potential side effects? No, I don't think they're told that. I don't even think doctors are really aware. They don't put the dots together until many times. I mean, we have, if you saw the film, you saw the very heart-wrenching stories of these

young girls that have died from pulmonary embolisms. And yes, there's a warning, but it's like, if you look at the page of side effects, I mean, it's buried in there and it's just, it's something that we should know. We should know that it actually can change your personality. It can cause low-lying depression. It could cause, you know, so women think that it's them when in fact it could very much be the drug that they're on. And so it's just, it's just awareness. And for me- I was going to say, if I may, you say that, you know, in the UK, certainly, I remember being tested on several pills to see what agreed with me. I was made aware by my GP of the ones that would perhaps suit me and the ones that wouldn't.

I remember reading and being shown this. This is when I was younger. And then again, when I was older and in my 20s, I think it's not a perfect way of finding a pill to have to go through those side effects. But there was that dialogue. And that's, I'm talking 15, 20 years ago. I consider yourself lucky that you had that time with your care provider, because here in the States, and I know my own personal experience, because so much of this is anecdotal, you get five minutes with your care provider, five minutes with Planned Parenthood. They don't have the time to run through all the litany of things that you should consider. And a lot of women go off the pill. I consider also them lucky that they had an adverse

reaction and they got off of it. My case, I was on the pill for two decades. I would switch the pill. I would go to my doctor and they'd have a new one in the office for free. And it would save me a trip to the pharmacy. So I'd switch brands and I'd switch dosing. And I didn't really put two and two together. But for me, my main side effect that I dealt with after the fact was hair loss. And that is a huge side effect that is actually like, I should have known that. I did not. I was not told that when I went on the pill and stayed on it for so long. And I might have made a different choice if I had known that my hair could fall out from it. I suppose what I'm saying, and you said it yourself there,

is some of the criticism of the film from those who have seen it has been, a lot of what you've put in there is anecdotal. Right, yeah, it is. Anecdata, as some journalists have called it. Well, you know, also, no, I mean, I stand by this. This film is heavily vetted. We have the top, top, top people in their field, all PhDs talking about this.

It's a small, very small number of women that die. But when it's your loved one, it's it's a big number. And just before you move on from that, do you think you stress the proportion enough in there? Because you have a long time with some of these families shared on the film. I understand that, you know, you're trying to tell their story and pay your respects and do their stories justice. But you could be forgiven for when watching this film of coming away from this feeling extremely scared, thinking that people dying from these sorts of birth controls is the norm. I mean, if I even quote one of your contributors,

they say, kill the pill before it kills you. Do you think you have got this in proportion in your film? I do. I mean, I really do. I don't think we're exploiting anything. I think we're telling the stories of these women. These families were so desperate. We followed these families for years and years and years. And in one case that we did not cover in the film, but the mother of Erica Langhart, Karen Langhart, she's the blonde woman that speaks at that panel, she ended up taking her life. She could not bear the fact that she could not have her day in court

for Erica and to be able to save women. And she ultimately took her life and helped us to make this film through her death. And that was a story that we were going to tell in the film, but we ended up not because it kind of took away from the overall storytelling. There was so much to share in this film. And Abby is my brilliant director and partner, you know, putting in the racist piece, the eugenics piece with Planned Parenthood. I mean, all of it. There was so much, the history of the pill, where we got started with Puerto Rican women,

with black and brown women that were, you know. Let's definitely come back to that. I don't want to go, you know, gloss over that because that is a really important piece of the story here and an important piece of filmmaking that you've done with that. But just to go back to, you say you don't think you've overplayed this and you don't think it's scaremongering which has been criticism it is not no i don't believe that at all but let me just go where is the evidence that such harm

is occurring on such a grand scale because if you look at a study that followed more than 120 000 women taking oral contraceptives over 36 years, I've got other bits of data here as well, it found that those on the pill were no more likely to die than those not taking it. So the grand scale is what I'm talking about, the proportionality. Right. And what they love to do in these studies is talk about versus being pregnant, the risk, the risk. I mean, that's just not really fair to say, you know, yes, there's inherent risk in everything we do. But I think I think it's fair to say that women should. And it's particularly in the United States. I can't speak for the UK. I can only speak from my experience and the people we talked in the States.

Women are not given the opportunity to understand fully what they are putting in their bodies and what it could do to them. I think, you know, that's probably not debatable for a lot of women around the world in the sense of do they fully understand it? But I'm very attached to the data and the facts around this from doctors as well, who some of whom have have spoken out saying that they do feel the emphasis in your in your film is wrong. I mean, you do cite a study from Copenhagen that did find, I remember this being reported at the time, that those aged between the ages of 15 and 19 on oral contraceptives

were 80% more likely to be depressed. But then there's a weaker correlation, which the film doesn't examine, among women in their 20s and older that show no such link. Right. Well, I can't speak for that. you guys didn't have my director on I wanted Abby to be on this with me she's the one who made the film so I would love for her to be on but you guys didn't want to have her on this morning so no I

don't think we didn't what sorry I will I thought we were we were talking you and I like this and that was that was what you could do as the executive producer but I suppose what I'm trying to say is from what I'm getting is you feel comfortable with how this has been presented I do I do and I think that any sort of backlash you know big pharma is tied to everything and um and I have to go back to my first film I made this film I'm not someone who claims to be an expert or a doctor I am simply someone who has used my sort of public platform to raise questions about the status quo in certain areas. So I made this film about birth 15 years ago,

and people didn't like it at first. People in the medical world had issues with the fact that they were presented in a certain way. Well, that was how they were behaving, and that was what the protocols were. So I think we're really a mirror reflecting and I stand by this film and I'm super proud of it. And I think it's not meant to scare women. My goal is not to scare women off of these pills.

I'm hoping to educate and empower them to be able to make an informed choice when it comes to their, their bodies. And the other bit that you were talking about, which is to do with the racism piece here and the history of how the pill was was tested. Talk to me a bit about that, because I think a lot of people will not know, especially women, that story. How did that play into what just super important to show that the marginalized and the black and brown women, particularly in Puerto Rico, were the ones that were the guinea pigs with the pill back in the 60s. And, you know, it was an important piece, particularly with the Margaret Sanger. You know, it's a complex, nuanced conversation.

And I think we have to be able to do both. We have to be able to live in a society where we can be critical of these things that we've just gotten used to over the years. And yes, there is a dark history where women have died. Women have had major, major side effects. There was five women that died during the study, I believe. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me. But yeah, I think that was a definitely important part of the story to tell. How do you feel about promoting this film at a time in America, which you will know very well, is very highly charged because this is the year that Roe v. Wade has been

overturned and there are concerns about the rowing back of women's access to healthcare that is about their fertility and their ability to try and have control of their bodies in this way. Yeah. I mean, it's by accident that it happened because we started making this film in 2014. So it's been a really long time and it just happened to come out the same year, which I think makes it even more important. Again, we are about access and options. We want all of these options on the table and more. We would love some hormonal birth control for men. You know, it would be really nice if men took the burden, they're the ones who can get someone pregnant 24 seven all day, any day.

And, you know, it's, it's really not fair that women have had to kind of deal with these side effects through the years. It just, it just, it says a lot. It says a lot, Ricky, doesn't it? That every time there's a trial with men, as I have understood it and read about it to try and come up with a male pill, they really have struggled with the side effects. They won't tolerate it. Yeah. We still don't have that pill in existence in the way that perhaps people thought we would by now. I think the other thing, just to take a step back, which again, you can very much speak to is how polarizing even trying to have this conversation is, especially in America, because people think you have to be one way if you're for women and another way if you're not.

And that gets put into the right and the left of your politics as well, doesn't it? Yeah, it is a very loaded conversation, but again, I think, I'm just, I'm really proud to be having, to have a film like this that's a tool. It's a great opportunity for a conversation starter. And yeah, I think we need to, you know, I wish, I wish, I don't have daughters, I have two sons, but I wish that I was maybe given this kind of information

back when I was maybe given this kind of information back when I was going on the pill for not even contraceptive reasons. You know, I've just food for thought. You know, it's like the information can empower us and can, you know, like we need to have the goods to be able to like make quality choices for our health that really can affect every aspect of our lives, including who we choose as a partner. And so, yeah, I'm super... So you're not worried about this coming out at a time, I know it's by accident, after Roe v. Wade has been overturned?

Am I worried? Are you worried that this will put women off taking a... No, because I think... When they can't get an abortion perhaps in their state anymore? I don't. I don't sort of take, I mean, I feel like I'm like the conduit. And I think, you know, we talk about all the options. We talk about non-hormonal options. I mean, I want this conversation to continue.

And one of the things we've done with the film is that we've done a masterclass series because so much, you know, is packed into this 90-minute film that we have like a nine-part master class series that we offer for people that are looking to go off the pill and look for looking for non hormonal options someone who has endometriosis and wants a deeper dive in that or PCOS so I think you know we have so much content we have hours of content with these experts and so we've put out this master class thing for as a service to women you know because honestly making documentaries do not make a nickel like this is

not a money-making venture we have not sold this film you know it's available on our website at the business of birth control.com and um you know i really look at these as like an act of service do making well i mean i also can speak to you know it's not perfect but having got and having suffered with endometriosis myself um i didn't know for a very long time but i was given the pill and and and i was grateful for that because of how it did actually help me live my life relatively normally albeit i didn't have the diagnosis then but you're right to say a lot of women who get given it aren't being used aren't being given it because of not getting pregnant so when people are thinking about alternatives that they should be aware of other options like you you have presented i just wonder

as well because i was looking up in the uk about um these apps you know some of which you feature in the film lots of voices in the film about that you know being able to chart your cycle and being able to to and if we just go to the pregnancy example, not get pregnant. You know, some practitioners, some medical practitioners have said that these apps, they feel a bit uncomfortable about them as well. It's basically going back to the rhythm method. No, it's not. It's not the rhythm method. No, no, no. But I meant, so this is how they would characterize it. And we did see actually one of these apps being referred to the Advertising Standards Association here in the UK for false advertising,

basically saying you're 99 percent protected from being pregnant. And then we went on to hear about women who got pregnant through using these apps. So, you know, there are faults, I suppose, with these sorts of trackers as well. Yeah, I can't speak for that. I don't, I don't own a tracking company. I have no idea about that. But you were quick to say it's not the rhythm method. Well, it's not, it's not. I mean, I think there's a, you know, there is a way fertility awareness method is a scientific method that is proven if it's done effectively, it is as effective, if not more so than even taking the pill. So again, again, I am, you know, not an

expert on, you know, all of it. I wish my director was here to give you the stats that you're looking for. No, no, it's more like I'm talking as a theme, really having been immersed in these stories, if you shared, like you share concerns, I suppose, about the hormonal side of things, if you share any concerns of pregnancies that are not wanted through those women who've tried to use these apps to control their cycles, because, you know, it's not a perfect science. The apps can't say. Yeah. I mean, none of it.

Nothing. Nothing is absolute. Nothing is, you know, there's risk. There's inherent risk in everything that we do, crossing the street, et cetera. Would you now, having made this film, and something you can talk to, you don't need to ask for, would you have taken the pill for all that time, do you think, when you look back at your life?

That's a really good question that I end up thinking about a lot because we are presenting this film to many, many young women. And I wonder, with the climate that we're in in the country, I don't know if I lived in a state down in the south where abortion and that right has been taken away, would I, I don't know, I don't know because I'm not in those shoes. I know I wish, I might have gotten off of it sooner or made a different choice, you know, it's just, I can't go back in time but I am so grateful that this information is available to the younger generation who doesn't want to put endocrine disruptors in their bodies they're way more informed and if you

know we can get people thinking flipping the script about our periods and learning true body literacy it's fascinating you can learn so much they call it the fifth vital sign you know when you study your cycle and see the changes in your you know your mood and your cycle and see the changes in your you know your mood and your energy I mean all of that is like helpful to a woman who needs to really advocate her to us for herself in the medical field you know when you definitely you definitely with this film um you've definitely captured a moment where the culture is seeming to start to change that there's also innovation innovation in the period space for the first time from women

as well, which is also something to note. There's also an incredible scene. I think it's from the sixties or the seventies. You tell me where women are lying next to each other, knickers off, pants off. I think using a speculum and a mirror to have a good look. I'm definitely going to remember that scene yeah we actually i mean we shot that as well modern day we went to this this amazing event i kind of it's called cycles and sex and they had another practitioner doing

you know women checking their cervix i wish i was in that i was filming at the time but i was wish i was looking at my cervix myself. Yeah, body literacy is important. It's so, it's an amazing thing when we can actually, like, I'm fascinated by my period. I'm 54. I still get my period. And I do track my cycle on an app, not for pregnancy, you know, but just to really understand my body

and see the changes that I'm going through now. And it's thrilling. It's actually thrilling. It's something I hated for so long, getting my period was such a pain. And now I embrace it because I feel like I'm still youthful, you know? Yeah, well, I suppose see how that goes because then you'll be in a whole other area of menopause.

Is that your next film? I don't know what our next film is. This one was so hard to make and we're not there yet. Rikki Leight talking to me about her new documentary. She's the executive producer of The Business of Birth Control. It's now available on Amazon Prime UK and worldwide on the film's website. Later in the week, I should say, we'll be talking about access to information in the UK about the benefits and potential downsides of taking the pill.

And on that point, a message from Tessa. Good morning to you. The pill changed my life for the better. It's an amazing invention. I'm slightly cross and irritated listening to Ricky Lake today. I'm a nurse who prescribes the pill and I always make sure my patients

know the side effects and answer questions clearly. She said it herself. She's not a doctor. And another message here saying I've never had a doctor talk to me about the pill issues, options, side effects. I'm 48. The dialogue has never taken place over the past three decades. My experience differs very much from mine, the presenters, as you refer to me in this respect, because I did share some of mine in

that informed choice is not really a characteristic of the NHS. But it's very striking to receive that message after someone working in the NHS who's had a different experience personally, but also characterises her treatment and dispersal of that pill and hormonal contraception in a completely different light. So thank you for those messages. As always, if you want to say anything, do get in touch on 84844 about whatever you heard there that may have spoken to you. If you've seen the film, of course, also do feel free to get in touch and on social media at BBC Women's Hour or send an email through the website. Now, a lot of you have also been getting in touch over the last couple of weeks about a story, a very powerful story and an account we shared two weeks ago. The head of the Royal Navy has finally responded to it and defended the way that the service handles allegations of rape and sexual abuse. Admiral Sir Ben Key says the Navy has changed how it investigates complaints. His defence follows this very memorable interview here on Women's Hour

earlier this month with a woman we called Catherine, who wanted to remain anonymous. Catherine served in the Royal Navy for 20 years and spoke for the first time, you might remember, about being raped while serving on a ship. She became pregnant as a result, and then a senior colleague suggested she have an abortion. She didn't and kept the baby. Catherine told me she regularly experienced harassment during a long but proud military career. In a moment, I'll play you Admiral Sir Ben Key's response to Catherine, which was given to my colleagues, I should say, yesterday on Broadcasting House,

not to us here on Women's Hour, despite our best efforts. But first, let's hear from Catherine. Here's part of her interview with me. Her words are spoken by an actor. There was a time when I did sustain some injuries. I had some bruising and some cuts. And actually it happened on a ship and I needed medical attention as well. And I was given sleeping tablets and signed off of duties for a couple of days.

And I've since, not long ago actually, I got a copy, a whole copy of my medical records. And my medical records didn't mention any of that. It says that I was given sleeping tablets and signed off of work because I was homesick. It was no mention of any assault, no mention of any of the cuts and bruises or the medical attention that I needed. And actually, that was a medical member of staff with a direct access to the captain of the ship that could have helped or said something. But instead, it is kind of brushed under the carpet and we'll just put something else in the medical records because she'll never know

and she may not even ever read these medical records. So was that a sexual assault? Yes, it was, yeah. And it was that bad you sustained injuries? Yeah. And several years later, I was pregnant. I had a child and all through my pregnancy, it makes me really sad to think that, you know, I went through this now.

But at the time I was begging my midwife to allow me to have a cesarean because I couldn't bear anyone to think, to see any damage or anything that had been caused previously. Yeah, that's probably the worst time I went through, really. So you didn't want doctors to see you during the birth of your child because the harm that you'd been caused, the injuries that you had received were so severe? Yeah. Or I believe they were. Would you describe, however you did sustain those injuries, would you describe that as rape? Yeah.

There wasn't any consent given. It was... I don't think you could describe it in any other way. Thank you to the woman we're calling, Catherine, who spoke for the first time about her experiences, and that interview can be heard in full, which many of you did. And many of you have been in contact since on the BBC Sounds app and through our podcast, I should say. But elsewhere in the interview, Catherine called for the complaints process to be made independent of the Royal Navy.

Well, Admiral Sir Ben Key, the head of the Royal Navy, joined my colleague Paddy O'Connell on Radio 4's Broadcasting House programme yesterday and responded to this point. I cannot have been alone in hearing that interview and it was almost heartbreaking to hear what her experience in the Royal Navy had been like. It is absolutely true that for a long time our investigation processes were too closely aligned with the chain of command which could then on occasion be seen as presenting a conflict. So we have changed it now so that anyone who wishes to raise an issue, a formal complaint, the admissibility and the handling of that complaint is immediately taken away from the

unit they're serving in whether it's the ship or the commando unit, and assessed at the headquarters, and will then be independently investigated. Now, I know that there are a number of people claiming at the moment that actually when they talk about independent investigation, that should be completely outside of the Navy altogether. But one of my challenges and concerns about that is that actually that's just going to add time. And the second thing is there is a context that needs to be understood by those doing an investigation as to what naval life is like. That's not to excuse inappropriate behaviour, far from it,

but it's to place it within the pressures that people feel on a day-to-day basis and to understand, therefore, where and how we need to change things and where and how certain actions need to be set. And I would be really worried that if we were setting ourselves in a completely independent process, we would both slow it down and actually lead to less good outcomes. Admiral Sir Ben Key there. We have invited him on again to Women's Hour,

as well as the Defence Secretary, Ben Wallace, and I very much hope they will take us up on the offer. A couple of messages here I wanted to share. One from Christine, which says, thank you, Emma, for following up on your piece on female naval experiences. I listened closely to the interview yesterday with the Admiral. I did not feel he understood the extent of the problem or that he had taken it as seriously as he should. And another one here with the name withheld, which you can always do. I served in the Navy for seven years in my 20s.

I found the recent stories of abuse and rape very difficult to listen to. I'm sorry to hear that. Although nothing that serious ever happened to me, the culture really resonates. Culture that was, and perhaps still is, deeply ingrained, of women being other and certainly lesser. There are so many examples I can think of. The passive-aggressive, you're good for a girl, almost making you feel grateful to be both a woman and okay at your job. I'm deeply disappointed by the First Sea Lord's response. Until the senior men in the Royal Navy can have very open and honest conversations about that culture that they have certainly been a part of in their younger careers, not necessarily overtly or perhaps even

consciously, but all the little things add up. Letting things go when women are spoken of disrespectfully is just the start of a toxic culture that has clearly resulted in very real damage to so many women. As I say, no name on that message, but a very powerful message to receive indeed. Please do keep them coming. Thank you very much. We're all the better for hearing for your experiences. But to turn our attentions now to those extraordinary protests in China, which grew over the weekend as people in cities across the country demonstrated their frustration at President Xi Jinping's zero Covid approach, with some calling for him to resign. The strict policies mean quarantines and snap lockdowns are still being put in place, and Chinese people are taking to the streets to protest in the

largest numbers since Tiananmen Square. One picture you may have seen this morning or overnight is of a young woman involved in one of these protests. She's standing in the middle of a crowd, it's dark, she's masked and wrapped up against the cold but holding up a blank sheet of paper. It's a striking image, the white paper being held up and one that's become a big part of this protest. People are silent, they hold up the blank sheet of paper, partly to avoid censorship and arrest, but also to represent what they cannot say. Noticeable among these protesters are the numbers of young women being called the prominent voices of the action. Yuan Ren is a Chinese journalist and former editor of Time Out Beijing.

And Isabel Hilton is the founder of China Dialogue, a non-profit independent organisation that works to promote an understanding of China's challenges and a visiting professor at the Lao Institute. Welcome to you both. Yuan, if I can start with you, can you remind us how these protests started, these particular ones? Yeah, so what was triggered essentially was something that happened in Xinjiang, which is an autonomous region that has a lot of tension with mainland China. There were footage, an incident where a block of flats were, because of zero COVID, the front door was bolted. Apparently, this is what was reported. And there was a fire in the flat and the residents couldn't get out um and what's what

was really haunting was that one of the women you could hear her um kind of saying let me out let me out i haven't seen the footage myself but that's kind of widely uh shared and um that resulted that fire resulted in 10 people dying i think nine injured. And that's what's triggered what's happened in the last week. I think the fire were on the 24th of November, around last week. So that COVID policy, zero COVID policy being seen as directly contributing to the deaths of those people, to the injuries of the others who managed to survive. What is your response as a a young woman a chinese journalist someone who who's lived in china also here in the uk at these protests and and how trying to process

how extraordinary they are yeah um i think it just it's astounding how quickly it's happened um you know this happened this incident was last week It was all over social media all of a sudden. And now over the weekend, we started seeing on WeChat and Weibo, Chinese social media kind of footage filmed by not just journalists, but local people. And now this protest is in every city, in all the big universities. It's across all of China. So I'm completely astounded by it. I've never seen anything like this. We've heard about the Tiananmen Square protests.

That was very much concentrated in Beijing and started at Beijing University. So it was almost like an intellectual environment. And this is on people's doorsteps. It's not just in squares at this at this point it's it's everywhere people and and and women especially young women being described as a as a prominent force in this yeah i think um obviously compared to you know 20 30 years ago women uh have equal uh equal place in universities now and they i think they feel very protected within those um universities and are on par with their uh male students um particularly and also

interesting well i think within universities obviously it's a younger generation um they feel like uh they're safe within that but also women in the residential communities who are older, but who in China, you live in these complexes, you know, who are very visible members of the community. And I've actually seen lots of videos of women giving speeches because they're well respected or an active part of that community. Yoann, thank you for that. I'll come back to you in a moment. Isabel Hilton, good morning.

Good morning. One of the commentators was talking about, in terms of women's role in these protests, that they have a lot less, you could argue, to lose from protesting and more to gain potentially because of how the COVID, the zero COVID policy has affected them disproportionately. I don't know about the lot less to use, but lose. But we've certainly seen women taking very, very bold and forward positions.

As Yuan said, we've seen footage of women arguing directly with police, calling them out for calling, trying to call them shameful for for being paid to repress people. You mentioned a young woman holding up a blank page. I've just been watching footage of a young woman in a very third-tier town, Wuzhen in Zhejiang province, walking down a street, holding a blank piece of paper with black tape on her mouth and chains around her wrist, just walking quietly towards the camera. Very, very powerful images. And we saw in Guangzhou, for example, a very telling image, which again went viral on

social media of a young woman kneeling with her hands tied behind her back in the public street. And she and a friend had gone to pick up a takeaway meal, had gone in without masks and were immediately set upon by what they call the big whites, who are the local enforcers in hazmat suits. Very, very unpopular at this point. And they were publicly humiliated. And I think that there is a sense of rage building in women. There have been so many recent cases of, you know, exposure of sexual harassment, exposure of discrimination. There's a sense that the regime is moving towards the redomestication of women because they want more children. You know, there's a sense that this is a moment for women in China. And I think that their prominence in these and the bravery of

these young women in these demonstrations is another symptom of that. And we should make the point, even if it's known, but sort of almost to stress it, that what we're seeing and the coverage we're able to see isn't necessarily what the Chinese people are able to see. Absolutely not. I mean, just looking at how the authorities are going to respond to this extraordinary series of events, we're beginning to see the disruptions, the disruptions in social media. For example, if you if you try to if you try to find any of the cities on with a search engine where you know things are happening, you'll get a whole series of semi pornographic images will come up. They're not you're not getting an honest search return. They're censoring World Cup footage in order not to show large crowds with no masks. You know, they want to remove the image of a normalized outside world and a very unique and singular China from public consciousness.

So we're beginning, you know, we're beginning to see that. We're also, you know, very, very swift censorship on social media of images of protests. So there will be places in China where people really don't know what's happening. And however much we scrutinize this, it's very hard to get a sense of the scale. You know, there will be parts of cities which are affected. We're all very surprised because we haven't seen people do this for a while, certainly not shouting very, very overtly political slogans. But we should bear in mind that the Chinese authorities are tracking every one of those people through the apps on their phones,

that they will begin to single out the people who are making political demands from the people who are simply frustrated with COVID. And they will begin to triage these demonstrations to try and get a grip. Which is a striking difference between Tiananmen Square and today, the ability to know exactly where people are and have them registered in this way through their phones and apps. Absolutely. Tiananmen, I mean, the most sophisticated technology was the fax machine. You know, things were getting in and out of China by fax, but there was nothing.

There was really nothing on this scale. And actually, the pandemic has allowed the authorities to extend across China a level of digital surveillance that they pioneered in troubled regions like Tibet and Xinjiang, where freedom of movement is very much determined by what the app on your phone says. And because of COVID, they've been able to use this to track people, and it can be used for political purposes very easily, and has been, actually.

Yuan, Isabel was saying there that this could be a real moment for women in China. These extraordinary protests and the role women are playing, younger and older. What do you say to that? Yeah, I think there's been the problem with the Me Too movement not taking off as much as it was a very select number of activists. And, you know, that was something that the idea of feminism wasn't isn't as strongly anchored in China. So while that took off in a kind of more common sense of sexual harassment in school so it was where people could relate to it um they felt like that was worth pursuing but this affects every single mother child you know one my my for example my own granddad uh lives on his own and the only person uh that can look

after him is my aunt at the moment. So she has traveled from Beijing to the middle of China to go and be with him for, you know, months. And we don't know how long she has to be there. And so women are taking on so much burden. They're the ones who are sorting out, you know, the shopping when they've shopped the community. So I think at this point, women are much more empowered, young women especially, you know, the one child policy empowered women, young women like myself. And that wasn't the case actually in 1989. So I think you've got intellect kind of women going to university

who are much more outspoken. And then you've got women who have had to do so much work in the last three years. And as a result of that, have more place in the community. And these protests are happening on your doorstep. We talk about coverage. And yes, it's being censored. But they can't on social media anymore. It's everywhere.

You just have to put your phone outside your street. And so I think China knows what's going on. I'm not familiar with what's going on in the rural areas, and I'm sure there's things that, you know, aren't as positive in that sense. But this is a moment, yeah, for something that's been suppressed for a very long time. Yuan Ren, thank you to you.

Isabel Hilton, just a final question to you, if I may. The idea of President Xi Jinping, for his resignation, being called in this way, how seriously should anyone take those calls because of how we know the regime responds normally? Well, we should certainly take the calls seriously. I very much doubt that Xi Jinping is going to resign. And I think the people who have made those calls, you know, will be in some danger. What's been interesting, though, is the speed at which these memes and these slogans have spread across China. In particular, you may recall that just before the 20th Party Congress last month, there was a banner appeared on a bridge in Beijing, which it took the authorities

some time to take it down. And it called directly, it said, there was a whole series of slogans, we don't want PCR testing, we want food, we don't want lockdown, we want freedom, we don't want lies, we want dignity, we don't want cultural revolution, we want reform, we don't want lockdown, we want freedom, we don't want lies, we want dignity, we don't want cultural revolution, we want reform, we don't want dictatorial leaders, we want elections, we don't want to be slaves, we want to be citizens. And we've been hearing these slogans chanted in a call and response manner in these demonstrations. So it's, I think one of the things that will really alarm the party, and they will be trying to make a distinction between, as I said, between people who are just protesting about lockdowns and people who have turned this into a political moment. And I think that is the message that they will be taking extremely seriously. I don't expect, as I said, Xi Jinping to resign, but they will certainly be taking note. Yes. And what this moment might mean for those people who are trying to make it political.

Isabel Hilton, thank you to you, founder of China Dialogue, a non-profit independent organisation that works to promote an understanding of China's challenges. And Yuan Ren, a Chinese journalist and former editor of Time Out Beijing. Let me ask you a question about where you work and perhaps the support you do or do not have there. Friendships at work. Who's in your squad? Perhaps it's also your friends away from work who are helping you get through work. You may not have that sort of support system there. I'm asking because over the weekend we learned that Camilla, the Queen Consort, has created a squad of her own. Rather than opting for ladies in waiting, she should instead be helped by what we're called

by what we're called Queen's Companions. Camilla's picked six of her closest friends. Their role will include helping the Queen Consort at public events. They won't receive a salary but expenses will be covered. At the end of last week on Women's Eye, you may recall I spoke to Lady Glen Connor.

Fantastic insight into an extraordinary life. A lady-in-waiting to Princess Margaret for three decades. We discussed all manner of things you can catch up on that full exchange. I really recommend it on BBC Sounds. But she was sad, having been a lady-in-waiting, and also her mother was a lady-in-waiting

to the late Queen Elizabeth. She was sad the the tradition is ending and she told me a little bit about what the role entails the reason for ladies in waiting is that although we do a lot of jobs and letters and all that sort of thing but we're friends and when you go abroad uh very very busy day and then in the evening you know i used to used to go up to Princess Margaret's sitting room, you know, and we used to have a drink and laugh and talk together. And I think ladies-in-waiting have an ear to the ground, too. They know what's going on, you know.

I think now the reason they don't perhaps have them, they take a secretary or something. It's more professional now. But it was great fun. And if you're a lady in waiting and know somebody very well, like I knew Princess Margaret, you pick up things. I mean, you're always in eye contact. Lady Glenconner there. Well, a woman who knows the value of female friendship is the journalist and author Claire Cohen, who took the time to write the book BFF, The Truth About Female Friendship. Claire, good morning.

Good morning, Emma. We're hearing about this idea of Queen's Companions, and I suppose it's not really your views on friendship generally today, perhaps, that we want to hear. It's more about what they could do for you at work. What do you make of that, the idea of changing ladies in waiting to Queen's Companions because of that network perhaps she needs at work? Oh, I think there have been many moves to modernise the monarchy that we've all heard about so far.

The coronation being slimmed down, probably the most high profile of those. But I think this move by Camilla to gather her friends, her companions. Her squad. Her squad, exactly. Companions is a slightly old fashioned term, isn't it? But I'm not sure she could get away with saying squad or mates or pals. But this move to kind of gather them around her in a professional, as they were nicknamed of the lady in waiting, which as we just heard, was sort of a kind of duty bound thing. And actually, by changing it to this sense of companions, I think that's really incredibly powerful. It's sort of showing how important it is to have people around you professionally, who know you, who know where

you've come from, who know who you are. A lot of the women that Camilla has chosen are people she has known for many, many years. And I think it's fair to say she's had quite a turbulent few decades in the public eye. And these are friends who have stuck by her, who know who she is, who have ridden that roller coaster with her, and who clearly she trusts immensely. And to have that in the workplace, I think most of us will know, is incredibly rare, but incredibly valuable. You know, when you've got somebody with you who you can, I don't know, roll your eyes at the madness of it all with and who you can grumble with, who you can complain with, who you can celebrate the good

moments with as well. That work, that is quite hard to find for most of us. But she's in a privileged position where she's able to sort of pick and choose her best mates to be around her. I was going to say, who you actually want to make a cup of tea for or would rather trust them to make your tea with and then have a chat over at work is invaluable. I think what's interesting about the idea of a squad, though, is a lot of women, we've done quite a few bits on female friendship lately is I'm not sure

if these women know each other if they are an actual squad or their individual bonds to her but just taking it as a jumping off point you know lots of people are would love to have a big group but they may just only have one or two friends that they can really count on like that. What did your research tell you about the benefits of maybe being in a bigger group or being just very strong with a couple of people? You know what, it is that one-on-one relationship that women really value the most. Even when you've got a big group, actually it's very important to have those individual bonds within the group and not just treat it as this homogenous mass.

Because actually the research shows that it as this homogenous mass. Because actually, the research shows that it's that dyadic relationship. It's sitting down opposite your female friend, having a cup of coffee, having a glass of wine, making eye contact, having that one-on-one bond that is so very important to us as women. And there is some evidence to show that that's, you know, biologically kind of built into us. It's something we crave in a way that men just don't in quite the same way. Although there was an author I spoke to recently, he was talking, his book's called Billy No Mates, I remember, and he was talking about the danger to men by not being able to build those bonds as well as women.

Oh, absolutely. And I think there is a lot of toxic masculinity around the narrative that men don't have best friends, shouldn't have best friends, you know, only kind of go out on bike rides and that's how they do their friendships. And there is some truth to that, but there is some toxic masculinity behind it as well that kind of tells them it's not something they should do. But it certainly, my research has shown, speaking to a lot of psychologists and scientists, that this one-on-one bond for women is very important. And you're right, we don't know whether Camilla's squad all know each other and scientists that this one-on-one bond for women is very important. And you're right, we don't know whether Camilla's squad all know each other and what that bond is like. But for her to have these trusted women around in a professional sense

is going to be incredibly powerful, I think. Yes, and they're meant to be there tomorrow at this event, which is her first one, I believe, first large official reception, which is tomorrow at the end, Violence Against Women Day, the United Nations Day. And have that ear to the ground, perhaps, that we were hearing about from Lady Glenconner, because you do need to have your friends inform you, don't you?

Oh, you do, you do. Well, it sounded from Lady Glenconner, they get pretty well informed about what's going on behind closed doors as well. So I think that relationship will work both ways. But, you know, it doesn't seem like this will be so transactional in some ways for Camilla. You know, she clearly wants trusted women around her. And we all know how valuable that is in the workplace.

And actually, I think more generally, we're entering an age where female friendship is taking on that role for more of us. You know, it's becoming our sort of survival critical relationship is how the scientists put it to me. You know, as more of us don't follow that traditional path in life. life you know we're relying on our friends for the big decisions more than ever we're running those huge life choices by them even if we have a partner so I think that will really play into Camilla's role with you know with her companions as well she'll be using them as sounding boards not just as women to sort of stand there dutifully at public occasions. I think it'll really, it seems like it'll be a much more interactive and important bond for her. And I think it's incredibly modern and forward thinking. I mean, we know the Queen, the late Queen, had a group of very important female friends.

So Camilla will definitely have seen that model, I'm sure, and will try to make it her own. But in terms of her professional life, and we know that she's a woman who likes to have a laugh at public engagements, I think it's worth saying. You know, we often see her, don't we, in photos kind of rolling her eyes and having a glass of wine. And I always think that she is the royal that you'd kind of want to be on a public engagement with and that she'd be really good fun. So it sort of speaks to that side of her character that she'd want friends around her at work, I think. We need to tell her maybe squad's the word she's looking for then, not companions. But there you go. She can't quite do it yet, but it's changed from ladies in waiting, which one of our listeners has written in to say, I'm so pleased they've removed the ladies in waiting as it always reminded me of women queuing outside the public loo, which is a reality for a lot of us, no matter where we go, that there are never enough toilets. I won't draw you on that. Claire Cohen, author of BFF, The Truth About Female Friendship of a Journalist and Broadcaster. Thank you

for your time. And thank you for yours today, all of your messages coming in. I have to say we've had a major response to the remarks of the head of the Royal Navy, the first Sea Lord. Quite a few of you talking about the response that was given yesterday to my colleague Paddy O'Connell on Broadcasting House not being what you wanted to hear. I will reiterate we have invited him onto the programme to respond directly to us and to what we heard from Catherine, the woman who spoke for the first time about what happened to her. So that invitation's gone out again to Admiral Sir Ben Key. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. What happens when you combine dog shows? The Kennel Club is not overdoing it when they say it's the greatest dog show on earth. And poison. The world of dog breeding has been rocked by claims that a prize winner at Crufts was poisoned. It's extraordinary behaviour. It is. Some people are ruthless.

The fear was real. People were much more protective. They didn't leave their dog for a second. New podcast, Dead Competitive. Presented by me, Kerry Godleman. Wow, look at that dog on the floor. It looks like a rug. No, I'm not a real detective. Crufts where every dog has its day. But I will try my best. Quite moving, that, innit?

Subscribe to Dead Competitive on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.