Woman's Hour - Roisin Murphy, World Cup 2023, US abortion, Flexible working

Episode Date: July 20, 2023

The law on flexible working changes today. This should make it easier for employees to argue for a flexible working arrangement. It’s the culmination of years of hard work and campaigning for more family friendly workplaces. Anita speaks to the Minister for Small Business, Kevin Hollinrake, and Amy Butterworth from the flexible working consultancy Timewise. An investigation by BBC Newsnight and the British Medical Journal (BMJ) has uncovered a row over controversial research about the impact of abortion on the mental health of women. An independent panel resigned from the British Journal of Psychiatry after their recommendation to withdraw the research, which is still being used in US legal cases about abortion access, was not followed. Newsnight’s Science Correspondent Kate Lamble joins Anita to discuss what has happened.The 2023 FIFA Women’s World Cup kicks off today in New Zealand and Australia. It’s set to be the largest ever, both in terms of viewing figures and the number of fixtures. But the tournament starts against a backdrop of uncertainty. This morning came the news of a shooting which left two people dead in the centre of Auckland, New Zealand. And off-pitch there have been frustrations around pay and treatment of the women’s teams. Kathryn Batte, Women's Football Correspondent for the Daily Mail talks to Anita.The Irish singer-songwriter Roisin Murphy first rose to fame in the 1990s as one half of the electronic pop duo Moloko, with hits such as Sing it Back and The Time is Now. She has gone on to have a successful solo career with award-nominated albums including Hairless Toys and Róisín Machine. Her upcoming album ‘Hit Parade’ is produced in collaboration with electronic music auteur DJ Koze and is due for release in early September. She joins Anita live in the studio to talk about her music and to perform her single 'Fader' with James McCredie on guitar.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Bob Nettles and Duncant Hannant

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, lovely to have you with me. I'm just checking there's no lions or lionesses crawling around in the Woman's Hour office today. No, we are clear. Wonderful to have you with me this Thursday. Are you working today? And if so, where are you working from? Are you in the office? Do you have the option of working from home? How might your life change if you did have the opportunity to work from home more, work more flexibly, job sharing, flexing your hours? What impact could this have on your life? Or are you someone who runs a business? How do you feel when your employees ask for flexible working? The reason

I'm asking is because the law is changing and it's going to be easier for employees to request flexible working. I'll be speaking to the Minister for Small Business, Kevin Hollenrake, shortly, but most importantly, I would like to hear from you on this. Tell me your thoughts and the positive or negative changes flexible working could have on your lives, you can get in touch with me in the usual way. Text number 84844. You can also email us by going to our website. You can WhatsApp me or voice note me on 03700 100 444. And our social media is at BBC Woman's Hour.

Now, when I got this gig, I drew up a list of dream guests. And I'm overjoyed to say that one of them is on the show today. Goddess Roisin Murphy will be in the studio, and it gets better. She's going to be singing live. What a treat this Thursday. And of course, we want to be hearing from you throughout the programme, your thoughts and opinions on anything you hear on the show. So, text number 84844. But first, the law on flexible working is changing. The government

is committing to giving employees the right to request flexible working from day one of a new job rather than having to wait 26 weeks. It's the culmination of years of hard work and campaigning for more family-friendly workplaces. Well, joining me is the Minister for Small Business, Kevin Hollingrake. Good morning, Kevin. Welcome to NewsHour. Just tell our listeners, how is this new law going to affect them? Well, it's really good for businesses. It's good for workers. It means that there's a constructive dialogue and it can happen from day one when somebody takes a new job on how that job, they might perform that job on a more flexible basis. So this can be starting a bit later so you can take the kids to school

or it could be working around caring for a relative. So all those kind of things that happen in people's lives. And we know that lots of people do want to return to the workplace and we have got a high number outside the workplace these days. And we've got employers who are desperate for staff so this is good because it says to those people come back to the workplace because it's a far more flexible place than it used to be. But the day one right to request flexible working won't actually come into force until next year at the earliest. Why? Because it takes time to lay the regulations to make this happen. We have

to do it as quickly as possible. We expect Royal Assent, which is the legal process in Parliament, to happen very soon. But it just takes a few more months to get the rest of the provisions in place. So early next year, people will be able to request this from day one. But of course, it doesn't stop employers now having that discussion with people when they're recruiting or they're talking to people about coming into the workplace. We know that adverts at a place that carry the flexible working, that says to people that a job may be worked flexibly, attracts 30% more applicants than one that doesn't. So if employers are looking for new people in their workplace, then that's a good thing to do. So we encourage employers to do that now,

to have a conversation with people they're taking on. Could they do this job flexibly? So this is to give employers a chance to get themselves ready because why wouldn't you just include it in the bill straight away, which becomes law tonight? Well, it always takes a little bit of time, these things. And you're right, we need to write guidance here. Cancers writing guidance to help employers understand

how to work alongside the new rules. Many of the rules are the same as the old rules. Really, the biggest change is people can currently have 26-week rights, so if somebody's worked for six months can request this. This is a right to request from day one. I stress it is a right to request, it's not a right to insist. So employer can say no on eight grounds, it has to give a proper consideration to the request to work flexibly. So it's not putting pressure on employers, quite the opposite, it's actually trying to relieve pressure on employers by bringing more people back into

the workplace. And if it is declined declined will employees be able to appeal and i mean they'll be out of conversation with employer but they can't you know if somebody's followed the process properly an employer you can't they can't take it to employment tribunal if the process has been followed so it's not it's not a right to insist but um but if i mean if an employer wouldn't didn't consider it or didn't respond within two months as they're required to do, then somebody could take that to a tribunal. But we see the instances of that has been very, very low and those kind of provisions have been in place for some years now.

It was a female Labour MP, Yasmin Qureshi, who tabled this as a private member's bill and it then gained government support. Isn't this legislation the government should have been bringing itself? We supported the bill. It was a manifesto pleasure we would do this. So it's not something we were pushed into doing, but it was great working with Yasmin. She worked very closely with us to draft the legislation and to take it through Parliament. It was very, very uncontroversial. People on both sides of the House supported it because they they can see the need for it aid so that people can plan work around their lives not the other way around and as i say we we track more people back

into the workplace there are 8.7 million people who are of working age or economically inactive some of those people by choice because they can't fit their rest of their lives around work. This is saying to those people, come back to the workplace because you can work flexibly and you can fit the rest of your life around work. It has been a long, hard fight by organisations like Working Families, Pregnant Then Screwed, Flex Appeal and lots more to get flexible working on the government's radar. Why is it mainly women worrying about this particularly in terms of flexible child care reasons? Shouldn't men be sharing the burden too? Well this applies to everybody of course women and men. Many men have child care responsibilities or other responsibilities or they want to do other things in their lives

other than work and this is the opportunity for both men and women this this is not a single gender issue and and again many employers of course uh many many businesses are male-led as well as female and so this this benefits everybody in terms of saying to both employees this is a good thing to do and you you know the number one reason why all the workers who've left the workplace might want to return to work is is the opportunity to work flexibly so this is really good to bring good talented people back into the workplace male or female. Are politicians setting a good example in terms of how jobs can be done flexibly in the times today Chloe Smith who stood in for Michelle Donnellan when she took maternity has said I'm just going to quote her here she said paternity leave and shared paternal leave should be a normal concept in

government I look forward to my first male colleague taking time off to care for their family well it's an interesting perspective I hadn't heard Chloe's views on that but I'm sure the government will listen to that very carefully and may act accordingly but it's a matter for the House, of course, not necessarily the government in this particular case on how we deal with these kind of matters. But there's no reason why, as far as I'm aware, that a male member of parliament couldn't benefit from some of those new relaxations and new provisions we've made to make the workplace more flexible for people who have children, having children or for other reasons. You've got four children. Would this have been something that would have been welcomed in your own life? Yes, I mean, definitely. I mean, I worked for myself for most of my life.

I was in business, but I think it was certainly been welcomed in terms of trying to get more people into the workplace. I mean, I think like a lot of employers, a lot of employers do this as a matter of course anyway because they realize that to have people happy in the workplace makes the workforce more productive. So good employers should always have a conversation with their teams about what they need.

And I don't think our business ever refused a reasonable request to work more flexibly or when something happened, a life event happened, or some situation in people's lives changed so they needed to work flexibly. This isn't just about working from home. That's to be very clear. It can be about job shares, working part-time. It can be starting later and finishing later, all those kind of things, or working from home on certain days.

There's lots of different ways you can work flexibly, and that's really about what's at the heart of this is creating the conditions to have a conversation between employers and workers to say can we do this in a different way which suits better your life and that's the kind of consideration you expect any employer to to take um when they're in these when they're having discussions with their workers now while many of our listeners will be celebrating this development and we are getting a lot of messages coming in, I will be reading some of those out in a moment, 84844 is the text number,

some small business owners might be worried about what it means for them. What do you have to say to them? Yeah, I mean, it's absolutely right. That's why we instigated the Flexible Working Task Force, which includes, for example, employers, representatives like the Federation of Small Business, Chambers of Commerce, these kind of organisations, so they could represent the views of small businesses.

I'm the Small Business Minister, business for 30 years prior to politics, so I do understand the needs of employers, but that's why I think this strikes the balance between employers needing workers um and workers wanting to work flexibly and but the fact is it's a right to request not a right to insist so it's about having that conversation between the employer and the worker about how he can do this job and you can say no we can't do it like this if it's not good

for customers or not good for the rest of the workplace the employer can simply say no as long as they've given it proper consideration and had a proper conversation about how that might work it's just making existing rules a bit easier and bringing that right forward from being a 26 week right to a day one right so back to the provision to be able to request on day one we know that one in two workers would consider it. When that hopefully becomes law in 2024, will, do you think, employers be ready? Well, that's why I'm giving people a little bit more time,

but we've been preparing this for some time. The Flexible Working Task Force has done a fantastic job in making sure that the consideration has been taken over employers' needs, but the ACAS guidance will be in place. I'd say lots of workplaces do this already. It is a 26-week right already, so this exists in law already. These kind of conversations do happen. All we're really saying is be able to have these conversations

at an earlier stage as a minimum. So there's not a massive change. The impact on business is quite modest. I think it's on the face of around £5 million a year cost to businesses, but there may be huge productivity upsides to this for businesses, of course, because getting more people into workplace, that's what employers generally are keen to do right now. And those people when in the workplace will be more productive if they're happy with their home lives working around their work life um well let's ask our listeners how they feel about it 84844 is the number six minister i will let you go now thank you very

much for joining us and thank you very much thank you before i go to my next guest amy butterworth from the flexible working consultancy time wise to talk about this i want to go to some of your tweets because so many of you have got in touch. It's not just for families. Flexible working helps people with long-term health conditions and disabilities. It's a reasonable adjustment so shouldn't be looked down upon.

It's a basic necessity to allow those with long-term health conditions to work, says someone. Someone else has been in touch to say, I'm in my 40s, have three degrees in STEM subjects. There is a huge reservoir of skilled competent women like me who can only rejoin the workplace with flexible working hours someone else has said i took 10 years off work to have children i couldn't find a way to get back

to work full-time without flexible working my current employer was happy for me to work 60 from the very beginning spread over four days so i could fit my hours between school runs it would be much much harder to go back without this flexibility. And Vicky in Newbury says, when talking about working from home, please bear in mind there are many of us who don't have that choice.

Shop workers, cleaners, gardeners, nurses, etc. The majority of women in the UK do not have office jobs and we're ignored in these conversations. Well, we don't want to ignore you. 84844 is the number to text. Another one here I'm just going to read out before i come to you amy sorry loneliness can be unwell an unwelcome result of working from home many live alone and for no fault of their own will have very little human contact um amy from time wise welcome lots of really lots of people engaging with this subject um I'm going to start by asking you how employers are preparing for these changes.

Good morning, Anita. So our message to employers is really that they need to start preparing now. Demand for the legislation is here. You mentioned earlier we surveyed 4000 UK workers and one in two of them told us that they'd consider using this once it becomes law. So employers need to think both about their existing teams but also about new recruits, as the Minister said. Employers are preparing by looking at what flexibility they offer their teams at the moment, starting to think about fairness. So do people feel they'd be taken seriously if they made a request? Do people across the organisation feel they'd be taken seriously if they made a request um do people across the organization feel they have equal access to make a request um and then the most proactive employers are also starting to think about how they can advertise their vacancies

differently so making clear to candidates at advert stage the flex that may be possible in a role and and it's going to be far better for employers if they can do this proactively so that they're having that conversation through recruitment rather than actually waiting for a new employee to make a request on day one when you think you've got a working pattern sorted. And you've advised 93 NHS trusts on flexible working. Why are they interested in it? So we know that retention of staff is a huge challenge for the NHS and lots of NHS workers in highly pressurized jobs feeling hugely stretched and you know it's right for me to point out that flexible working has been a

pillar of the current NHS workforce plan, the people plan before that, and it is really linked to retention. So the NHS organisations that we work with are interested because if they can improve staff wellbeing, improve staff's day-to-day experience of work by offering some flexibility, it's going to help people perform in their roles and it's going to encourage people to stay. It's as simple as that, really. Well, we know there are nearly 47,000 NHS

nursing vacancies. We talk about it a lot on Women's Hour. That's according to the most recent data from 2022. Could this new law help with that? Yes. Yeah. So we know that offering flexibility in nursing roles makes them more attractive, both to nurses that are early in their career, but also to qualified nurses and those who've maybe left the profession. You know, offering jobs flexibly can encourage nurses back into the profession. And there are some great examples of NHS trusts whose vacancies really stand out because they're already specifically advertising that they do offer flex so whether that's fewer shifts per week or whether it's some choice over shift times or a set pattern so yes I think I think the short answer is it can make a difference to

shifting some of those vacancies and we also know that there are a large number of nurses who choose to leave substantive roles and work through banks or agencies. And often that is just because that's the only way they can see to get the flexibility that they need. So to get some control over rosters to our substantive teams so that they can remain in their roles. They don't have to go and work through an agency or as bank staff. Are you seeing a divide between hybrid workers and frontline workers on this? Yeah, we certainly know that it's not an even picture in terms of who has access to flexibility at the moment. And, you know, one of your listeners commented on that just now. And in the survey that we've done recently, 41% of professionals

and managers in the survey said that they'd had greater flex since the pandemic and only nine percent of people in frontline roles said that they'd had greater flex so yes we know it's not an even picture um in the UK we've got about eight and a half million people doing frontline jobs so that's a lot of people who can feel quite excluded from the hybrid working revolution that we've seen since Covid and I think that's partly why this legislation is important because it's for all workers. So it's recognition that millions of people need or want flexibility to do their roles.

It's a really strong message to employers to think about what flex they can offer to all their people and how to make it fair, not just those of us that work from a desk and can work in a hybrid way. And make it fair so that men and it's equally as attractive for men as it is to women so I read somewhere that the only workplace that can't be flexed is an oil rig is that true? I don't have any direct experience of working patterns in an oil rig, I need to confess, although I can imagine that it might be tricky. I can tell you that at TimeWise we've worked with employers to design flexibility into a real range of workplaces that it's not necessarily straightforward to do so. So classrooms, construction sites, TV sets, hospitals, bus depots.

So it can be done. Often it's about challenging mindsets. It's about questioning the way things have always been done to work out, you know, what can be designed in to give a little more flex. Most people are reasonable. They know the requirements of their role um but a bit of flex around start and finish times or being able to finish early occasionally being able to have some input into the shifts that they choose it can go a really long way um one of the nurses in a

pilot that we're running at the moment was telling me that because she's now involved in being able to select her own roster within rules she's been able to rejoin a netball team right so that was a real passion that she had before she came into this role but she hadn't felt able to commit to enough of the weekly training sessions and now she's at a point where she feels she can go back and do that and that's going to make a huge difference to her health and well-being and how she feels about her job yeah yeah get out there get playing sport feel healthy mental health um so a few of the um jobs that you mentioned there are kind of traditionally male industries like construction and bus driving so could they offer more flexible hours yeah yeah so um with bus driving, for example, flexibility is closely linked to rostering again. So like the nursing example, it's about giving some input, some predictability over times of work

and thinking about having a more consistent window of when their shifts might fall. We've done a lot of work in construction on site and often that's about engaging the team. It might depend on the stage of the project that they're on as to what flex is possible and working actually with the site-based team to look at what might make a difference for them, whether it might be finishing early once a fortnight so that they can beat the traffic and get home in time for school pickup, whether it's giving more control to small teams to organise how they run their work on the site. But yeah, it is possible. It's not necessarily straightforward, but it's definitely possible if you have the will and if you're willing to look quite forensically at how the work is done

and challenge and question that and if your employer isn't convinced as a worker what can you do so the legislation i think is a clear recognition that you have the right to make this request the minister's underlined that and you know if you're in that position um i'd say remember that you're not alone in needing flexibility so um you know, we know that millions of us need that in order to make life and work. Make sure you do your prep before you speak to your employer. So consider the flex that you need, but also think about the nature of your role, what might work well, and try and be a bit flexible yourself. So have in mind,

you know, what are the most critical things for you what's really going to make the difference are there alternatives you can suggest and you know employers might have been scarred by a bad experience in the past um or they might just be nervous about agreeing to something that they're not sure if it will work so a trial can be a really good suggestion as well you know know, suggest a trial in the first instance, agree some clear measures of success so that, you know, you can both see how it's going and review it. And that might give them the confidence they need to to support you with what you need. Getting some really interesting messages in on this topic. Someone has said as a part time professional mum, I welcome flexible working, but worry that it will mean the default burden to do wraparound child care etc will fall even more to women and another one here

saying I'm a registered nurse with 30 years experience I've been unable to reapply for my post which was a fixed term contract because they couldn't accommodate my flexible working for my child care I'm dreading bank work and never knowing if I have work you're nodding Amy yeah yeah I think you know these are real issues that we're hearing about day in, day out. And, you know, it needs sorting out because we need these people in the workforce. Yeah. Dreading bankwork is a hard thing to hear, I think, you know. There are trusts out there that are doing great things around self-rostering and team-rostering. And I really hope that your listener can find one of those locals for them yeah amy butterworth

from time wise thank you very much for joining me to talk to me about that this morning um 84844 is the number to text and so many of you getting in touch i'm just going to read a few more out my daughter is a mother of three under nine three under nine year olds she would love to work flexibly but cows need milking same day every day twice a day you can't muck about with milking time and that's from an ex dairy farmer um i would have loved this flexible working legislation when i was a single parent however it's not just a woman's problem my son is co-parenting and working full-time and some saturdays he's dependent on his employer allowing some flexibility it's not always easy in a small team, no matter what the law says.

And my health has improved dramatically since I've been able to work from home. My relationship with my children has improved. I will not sacrifice either of these to go back into the office full time ever again. Thank you and keep your messages coming in. And if you want to email, just go to our website now. An investigation by BBC Newsnight

and the British Medical Journal has uncovered a row over controversial research about the impact of abortion on the mental health of women. An independent panel resigned from the British Journal of Psychiatry after their recommendation to withdraw the research, which is still being used in US legal cases

about abortion access, was not followed. Well, Newsnight's science correspondent, Kate Lamble, joins me now to tell us more. Welcome, Kate. Tell us what this is all about. Sure. So at the heart of all of this is the idea that legal threats to UK publishers

might be having this ripple effect on the other side of the Atlantic, influencing major US healthcare decisions. And the connection, the kind of like stone in the pond, is a piece of research by US psychologist Professor Priscilla Coleman. It was published in 2011 in a British journal, the British Journal of Psychiatry. And it's a systematic review, which is essentially a piece of research that brings together lots of old research. And it concluded that women who've

had an abortion have an 81% increased risk of mental health problems. Now in the rollback of abortion access that we've seen across the US, this research has regularly been used by those who would favour further restrictions. So it was mentioned in briefs submitted to the US Supreme Court as part of efforts to overturn the constitutional right to abortion, which was set by the famous Roe versus Wade case. It was also cited by a Texas judge earlier this year when he ruled that a major drug used for abortion, mithopristone, should be withdrawn. So this research is now quite influential, but it has also been widely criticised

and calls for it to be retracted or taken down were first made all the way back in 2011, basically as soon as it was published. So why is it controversial? So some critics argue that this paper didn't meet the best practice standards for the time and that it represents what they call a serious lapse of scientific integrity. What they're pointing at when they say that is that

basically as I mentioned this work combines all these previous papers and they mentioned numerous issues with how that was done, the method, including the fact that it didn't set out clearly how it selected which papers it was going to use so other scientists couldn't replicate, copy that work and also some of those papers use the same underlying data. So when you amalgamate lots of data that's the same, you end up counting some women more than once. And another review co-authored by the Royal College of Psychiatrists also found that methodological problems brought into question

these results about this link between abortion and mental health. Now we put this to Professor Coleman and she pointed towards her decades-long experience. She insists that her work meant relevant guidelines and told the BBC that criticism is being driven by the political nature of the topic. Now, I put that to Professor Julia Littell. She's an expert in this type of work, systematic reviews,

and she's one of those who asked for the paper to be retracted. Would you consider yourself pro-choice? I would. Do you think that's played any... That's not the issue here. Because Priscilla Coleman's lawyers would say that this is a biased attempt to discredit her work. That's unfair. And there's no basis for that. Because again, our critique has nothing to do with her findings. I would make the same criticism if she found exactly the opposite thing. The issue is the integrity of the science, full stop. Surely lots of papers have problems with them. Why is this one being focused on?

Yeah, so lots of research that's out there gets superseded by the next bit. You do something, a bit more research happens and it gets updated. But because this research was being used to influence women's healthcare in the US, in 2022, some of the same scientists who'd complained 11 years ago, got together and decided to put in further calls for it to be retracted. And we talked to the US epidemiologist Chelsea Pollis, who led this. She said, basically, what pushed her is that having deeply flawed manuscripts in the scientific literature imperils her ability, in her words, to craft sound public policy. So they ask again. Then an independent panel set up by the British Journal of Psychiatry is brought together to investigate this.

They spend months doing it and they do recommend that this paper should be taken down. Now, at this point, it would typically be left to the editors of the journal to decide what to do. Do they take it down? Do they decide, oh, well, that's worth leaving it up. But ultimately, that was not what happened. The decision was not left with them. So why was that decision made this time? So Newsnight was told by members of that panel that their recommendation disappeared into the ether until the journal's owners, who are the Royal College of Psychiatrists, stepped in and told them that a retraction wouldn't be happening.

Now, they were really concerned by this intervention by the journal's owner and all three panel members resigned. Some expressed concern to the BBC that legal threats might have influenced the college's actions. And they think that because the BBC's seen legal letters from Professor Coleman's lawyers saying that she would take any and all legal options available if her work was retracted. This is Dr Alex Tsai who sat on that independent expert panel. If it truly becomes a thing where all an author has to do to get a journal to back off on a

retraction, all they have to do is send a strongly worded legal letter. I think that will undermine confidence in the journal's ability to police the content that it publishes. The journal that does not uphold editorial independence is probably not long for this world. So what do the Royal College say? So we put lots of questions to the Royal College of Psychiatrists. They didn't answer our questions about whether the threat of legal action influenced their decision. But they did say that the paper wasn't retracted because of the distance of time. So basically, it's been 11 years. The available public debate, including the fact that letters of concern are published alongside the article online and a previous 2011 investigation. Now, all of that obviously was the case before this second investigation began.

Thank you very much for coming in to talk to me about that um the report is we will be able to see it i'll just get find the information here we go you can hear thank you very much uh yeah you can hear the full report tonight on news night 10 30 on bbc2 thank you kate uh lots of you getting in touch uh with flexible working and your thoughts on this it's important people should have flexibility, but a team can lose its identity and support for each other. The work I do is emotionally taxing and it's helpful to have colleagues around you. Also, the opportunity to share and learn from each other is much harder by Zoom. Someone else says, I'm a part-time primary school teacher in Lancashire.

I went part-time before having my baby and it's been the best decision i made it's kept me in teaching and made me my work and life far more manageable i wouldn't have stayed in the profession if my employer hadn't been accommodating very grateful to them and martin says i started working from home at the start of the pandemic which allowed me to care for my wife during her cancer treatment up to her death in april I'm now struggling to find a work from home role which would help me cope with my grief and arthritic conditions. The other thing people seem to fail to mention is the environmental benefits of reducing commuting and someone else has said our council is still implementing flexible working with people choosing if they

want to work from home or in the office. For me, this has been really helpful in managing my chronic illness and also being able to drop my daughter at school and attending concerts, which would never have been an option if flexible working wasn't an option. Keep your thoughts and opinions coming in on anything you hear on the programme. More than welcome. 84844 the number. Now, the 2023 Women's World Cup has begun. Co-hosts New Zealand have beaten Norway 1-0 in the first match of the number. Now, the 2023 Women's World Cup has begun. Co-hosts New Zealand have beaten Norway 1-0 in the first match of the tournament. It's set to be the largest ever, both in terms of viewing figures and the number of fixtures,

with eight more teams involved compared to the previous championships. But the tournament opens against a backdrop of uncertainty. This morning came the news of a shooting in the centre of Auckland, which left two people dead and six others injured. The Prime Minister, Chris Hipkins, said that no political or ideological motive for the attack has been identified and the public can be assured

that there is no ongoing risk. And in addition to today's events, things have not been smooth sailing. Many players are expressing frustrations around the pay and treatment of the women's teams well Catherine Batty is women's football correspondent for the Daily Mail and she joins me now from Brisbane welcome to Women's Hour Catherine um where are we seeing these disputes between teams and their federations let's get straight down to what's happening

yeah well I mean how long have you? Because there's quite a few countries with different sorts of problems going on. You know, on a kind of lesser scale, but still important, obviously, we've seen England kind of have this dispute with the Football Association recently over bonuses. And it was really interesting to hear Lucy Bronze yesterday say that the World Cup is a time where people,

you know, listen to women's footballers. It's, you know, they don't always get this stage. And that's why we're kind of seeing a lot of countries, you know, use this as a platform to express their dissatisfaction with, you know, the treatment they're getting from their federations. I mean, some of the more serious examples we've seen is obviously Nigeria, who threatened to boycott their first game against Canada. Why was that?

So they've similarly to England had a dispute over bonuses, payments with their federation, not happy with the facilities they've had. There's ongoing arguments between the manager and the federation who have been kind of calling each other out over the last few weeks. He said they've not had enough time to prepare for the tournament and they said a pre-tournament camp was cancelled lots of different things um you know in terms of a lack of preparation and i think it boils down to they feel like that you know they don't care about them as much as they do uh their male counterparts and um you know but i think the main issue was obviously the lack of pay.

We don't think that boycott will go ahead, but the fact that it was threatened and it was a possibility is obviously not good. And as I say, ironically, they're playing Canada, who have also had problems with their own federation. They actually went on strike very briefly earlier in the year, again, over pay and over facilities and a lack of funding in obviously the World Cup year. So that's two examples.

I mean, Jamaica are having problems as well. They've had to crowdfund for meals and things like that and parts of their accommodation. We've seen more in terms of disputes between management and players. Obviously, Spain are without three of their best players because they don't want to play for their manager. France have had issues ongoing as well. So, yeah, there's quite a few countries going through different sorts of problems.

If teams like Jamaica are having to crowdfund for their accommodation and meal costs, what does that mean for a level playing field? Are things really going to be equal? Well, no, that's the thing. And I think that's what they're saying. And all of the players put out a statement on their social media accounts. It was an open letter, essentially, calling for more to be done. And that it's not good enough in 2023 that players have not got the facilities

or the funding and are having to crowdfund for a World Cup. You know, Jamaica have got a fantastic striker in Bonnie Shaw who plays for Manchester City and was the second top scorer in the WSL last season. So, you know, they're a team with some really good players and, you know, they should obviously be in a better situation than this. What could happen if these disputes aren't resolved? Are we likely to see more strikes that happened with the Spanish team?

Quite possibly. I think in terms of it happening in the World Cup, we don't think that's likely, but never say never. In terms of afterwards, if these things aren't resolved, there could be more threats of boycotts going forward. I think it's always difficult for players because sometimes legally they, it can be difficult legally to actually strike. We saw that with Canada.

They sort of didn't want to play their She Believes Cup game in March, but then had to sort of canister the strike because they would have been in breach of contract. So for some countries, it's difficult to carry through with it. I think that was to do with Canada's bargaining agreement. But, you know, there is a real chance now. And I think also because of the attention on women's football, I think footballers think they deserve more. I think, you know, with the way the women's football game has progressed,

players aren't prepared to just settle for, you know, the minimum standard anymore. You know, even England, for example, have got some of the best training facilities in the world, but as I say, Lucy Bonds was saying to us yesterday that they feel a responsibility for the other countries who don't have as much to set the standards. We've seen the United States do it for many, many years in terms of, yes, they had the equal pay dispute back in 2019,

which was eventually resolved. Similar-ish sort of situation that England are going through now. We just heard that Australia's captain and star player, Sam Kerr, will miss her first two games due to injury. How much of a blow is this to the hosts? It's probably the worst thing that could have happened to them, to be honest. I mean, Sam Kerr is their best player. She's the poster girl of this World Cup. And know a lot of interest here in australia is obviously you know

focused on her because she's a big star um i still think they should have enough to win those first two games but um they will desperately hope she's back for that third match against canada because that is likely to be the game that will decide who wins the group and obviously they need their best player and their best you know goal scorer in the team to do that. Bad for Australia, maybe good for England and Ireland. Despite the uneasy backdrop, what's the mood like? It's interesting, I think. We've always seen in the past that women's football tournaments

build momentum as they go through. We don't have people shouting from the rooftops on week one but as as you know we get through and the excitement builds it really does take hold and I think the key obviously is the host nations doing well and New Zealand getting off to a fantastic start certainly helps them and if Australia can win tonight I do think we'll see in the next few weeks that that excitement build obviously there'll be disappointment around Sam Kerr not playing, but if Australia can win without her as well, psychologically, I think that'll give people a big boost. I'm obviously in Brisbane at the minute,

where England's first game will be on Saturday. I think in places like Sydney, obviously they've got the game this evening, and it does seem to be that there's a lot of excitement over there. I think it's still building a little bit in Brisbane. But as I say, when the games start here, I think that excitement will grow definitely. OK, and very quickly, Catherine, a lot of people will be watching the Women's World Cup for the first time. Who should our listeners be looking out for? What should we be excited for?

Well, I mean, there's some fantastic players on show. I think obviously in the England team, Lauren James is definitely a player to watch. She wasn't at the Euros, but I think she will have a key role to play at the World Cup. And then in the United States team, Sophia Smith is a great player.

I know we talk a lot about Alex Morgan and Megan Rapinoe, but, you know, Sophia Smith is definitely one to watch. Brilliant. Thank you very much for that, Catherine Batty,

for speaking to us. And you can find coverage of the Women's World Cup across the BBC. Now, on to my next guest, the Irish singer, songwriter. I'm going to riff here. Artist, performer, dancer, styled goddess. And I mean this in the best way possible.

Glorious, misfit and all-round badass. Roisin Murphy is sitting opposite me. Roisin, first rose to fame in the 90s as one half of electronic pop duo Maloko, with all those hits, Sing It Back and Time Is Now. She's gone on to have a huge, successful solo career with award-nominated albums, including Hairless Toys, Roisin Machine, her highly-anticipated upcoming album,

Hit Parade, produced in collaboration with electronic music auteur DJ Cozy is due for release in early September and she's just released a new single You Knew. She's currently on tour but I'm delighted to say she's found time to come and pay us a visit here at Woman's Hour HQ and it gets better she's going to be performing live. Welcome Roisin. Thank you so much. How's it going? It's going really well and I'm looking forward to the PRS check after that little intro. We've got a few in there, didn't you? Well, there's so many brilliant ones. I was like, and this one, and this one, and this one. And it got us going as well. Slightly belated, but happy birthday. Thank you so much. How was turning 50? I spent the day getting nits out of the children's hair. It was very glamorous. Where, in Ibiza? No, in Ireland actually, yeah. Did it feel significant?

Not the nits, the birthday. I think this whole year has felt very significant you know and putting out this record feels amazing to be doing at this point in my career to be still making surprising records is at least interesting. And so I'm happy to say that's the case.

Well, I want to congratulate you because Hit Parade, I have been listening to it nonstop and it's fantastic. Thank you. What can people expect? It's a whole universe. We finished it without playing it to anyone and then I didn't have a record deal so I played it to a load of people in the industry.

I had a lot of interest in signing the record because I'm on it and he's on it. Cozy's quite a big artist. And so I played it to lots of people and every time I'd go into the office I'd think I'm going to play two or three songs, but in every meeting, I kid you not, they wanted to listen to the whole album.

So I think the album very much is a journey. It's very colourful. It's very joyful, but it has some undertones, obviously, as well, what with it being me. What do you mean? Well, I mean, it's's very very joyful in the in on the whole but um that's misleading if you think that's that's all that's there um more I think

people will be surprised to hear that you made it and had no record deal and that you went touting it around yeah well I mean I tend to do very short deals these days. I mean, that's part of the way people operate these days anyway. And it was nice to have it. It was kind of a secret record in a sense because we made it hobbyishly over a number of years and we made it remotely from each other. It was a very easy process, but it took a long time. So you weren't together at all?

Once we did. He recorded my vocal once, but no, most of it was remote from each other. And what was that like? It was interesting. It sounds colder than it was. We certainly were communicating a lot when we were working, but then things could go very quiet for months. But when he, the producer, DJ Cozy,

came to me and said he wanted to make this record, but he had to make it in his way, and that meant that it had to take as long as it needed to take. He wasn't going to be rushed about it. And that I would have to get familiar with the same music software that he uses so that I could write wherever I was and send him the files. We could share files very easily. What a lovely way to create some work. It's like a hobby. No pressure. No pressure. Apart from the pressure we put on ourselves. Yeah.

But and he's ruthless. So there's lots in terms of what, you know, if it doesn't sound great, he gets rid of it really quickly. So it was emotional at times, but it was very joyful. And I've been going through a period where I just get loads of great music sent to me and great music people coming into my life, and I think that's the joy that you hear on the record. It is joyful, and you do take us on a journey I particularly like the like the spoken interludes that you've got in between bits and pieces and the conversational bits and it's also quite romantic. Yes. There's a lot of love in your

life. There is yeah I think that's been a great time for me the last few years because I've got two lovely children and I've got an amazing partner and I'm making tunes, which is just, to me, amazing. You don't expect to be this happy at this age. Do you not? No, I think when you turn out to be happy at this age, it can be quite surprising. You're only 50.

I'm only 50, but you know what I mean? Like, you're kind of made to feel like maybe you're on the down, but actually I found the opposite. Well, we're made to feel it. We're told, aren't we, that at 50... Well, because you spend more money, you know, quick, because you're running out, and you better spend more money on stuff that helps you not run out.

I think that's what it's about, isn't it? Do you feel the pressure of time? I lose track of time very easily, especially when I'm being creative. So I just throw myself into things and time can go by and I'm not aware of it. But at the best of times, I'm not aware of much, you know. At the best of times, either when I'm writing or performing, I'm in a flow and none of these concepts are coming into my head whatsoever. Not even the concept of gender comes into my head as I perform and write. I want to talk to you about your performance because you brought it up

because you are so incredible on stage and it feels as though you are giving your all. It's almost like you embody something else when you perform. What's that experience like? I certainly commit to my performances. And I always have, you know, I remember at the beginning of Moloko, which was my first band years ago, like in the mid-90s. Oh, yeah.

And we did our first gig in London and I came out on stage and I had a dog collar on and a lead and I got into a dog basket and I had a bone in my mouth. Incredible. And I didn't have the gay following I have now. You know, it was just like a couple of music journalists and skateboarders. Did they get it? No. So where did that freedom, I mean, you've always, I described you as a misfit in the

best possible way that I like that you said that you don't consider time or space or even gender, but where does that confidence in your identity come from to want to just do things your own way? You've always done it yeah it's i don't know if it's all about confidence or if it's about um having a goal or you know being um i just fixate on things you know and uh but i think all of that flow state is all beyond all of that you know know, and this is my yoga. You know what I mean?

I go out on stage and I go there. Brilliant. Yeah, we fully appreciate it. You mentioned Moloko. I want to take you back to your time living in Sheffield. Obviously, being a Yorkshire lass, I need to bring in a bit of the connection. How did living in a good northern city like that influence your ability to retain your individuality and creativity, not being in London? Well, I mean, at first we moved to Manchester when I was 12 with the family.

And then I was there until I was 19. And I immersed myself in the club culture and going to see bands. And it was all about music. My whole life, my whole friendship and it was all about music my whole life my whole friendship group everything was about music people obsessed with music and was a big melting pot at the time in Manchester and you could see any kind of music you know anytime you could go to a reggae sound system or you could go to Hacienda or you could go to like a dirty little acid house club or everything everything

was and all the live music all the bands would come through Manchester so it was a great starting point to just become really obsessed with music yeah and in music culture and that's where all my friends were and then I moved to Manchester Sheffield sorry and I found that in Sheffield, sorry. And I found that in Sheffield there was this DIY scene so that if you were into music, you inevitably within five minutes would meet people who were making music, who were building studios, who were starting record shops, labels, graphic designers.

So it was like the scene of sort of dance music at the time really needed that, really needed that energy of DIY. Everything was being done. The people that you were sharing the culture with were actually making the culture, which was different to, say, pop music or rock music or whatever. But it took five minutes for me to meet people who were doing stuff in Sheffield,

and they took me under their wing. Which is brilliant. And then your world explodes, doesn't it? But your musical influences. I've got to talk about him because I've heard you talk about him in other interviews. And you talk about your childhood in Ireland and the influence of your dad, who I'm so sorry that you lost. Yeah. But he was a big Shirley Bassey fan.

He was, yes. Loved Shirley Bassey. I think that was his ideal woman. And you are a big Shirley Bassey fan. And He was, yes. Loved Shirley Bassey. I think that was his ideal woman. And you are a big Shirley Bassey fan. And I am, yes. Yeah. I think we should hear you sing some live music. Oh, don't say Shirley Bassey and then tell me to go and sing.

But you, I mean, I feel you've got the Shirley vibe. You've got it. No, no. Absolutely. Oh, I try. Spread your arms and bring the joy tell us what you're going to sing for us I'm going to sing

Fader from the new album, wonderful and is it Jamie on guitar? I will let you take wonderful Jamie on guitar what a treat, live on Woman's Hour this Thursday morning Roisin Murphy is going to sing for us

you can take your headphones off, that's it take your position at the mic uh this is fader oh yes girl roshan murphy singing fader on woman's hour that was spectacular oh watching you you're so in it you started on the floor sitting down that wasn't good enough you had had to get up. You had to get up, get into it. And you shot, you directed the video, you went home to your hometown, Artclo. What was that experience like? Did it feel full circle? It really had a, it was an amazing experience. I mean, I had to be very focused on the day because I was directing it and I put on a parade and I think people just thought,

she's just going to put on a parade and we'll video it. But really I had to make the route seem very believable and so it was quite complicated, the shoot. And people really had so much patience and they were just so wonderful. It was magic, Roisin, you see it. I felt like I was, even though I didn't know that many people involved in it, I felt like I was around people who cared about me in some way.

Performing within that is one of the best moments of my life. You could see it. Honestly, watching that emotional, I can see you getting emotional now. Yeah. It is, you see the joy. You see the little girls performing around you and you skipping with them and it just feels poetic. Well, we spoke about my father, but my mother's

listening. I'd like to say hello to her and to say that her family go back so far in that town that they can't trace back them not being there. Mum's name? Rose. Rose. Rose Kavner. Lovely to have you with us

Rose. Hasn't she done well? Hasn't she done well? Roisin Murphy, what a pleasure having you on Woman's Hour. Best of luck with this album. It's a banger. It's going to do brilliantly. Jamie, thank you. And thanks to all our listeners. I'll be back tomorrow for more Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, Woman's Hour listeners. I'm Dr Michael Mosley. And in my new BBC Radio 4 podcast, Stay Young, I'm investigating some simple, scientifically proven things you can do to rejuvenate yourself from the inside out. Which will you try? Maybe a slice of mango to reduce your wrinkles. Mmm, delicious. Or learning something new to stay sharp.

Hi, OK. Hi, OK. How about lifting some weights to protect your muscles against the ravages of time? That was quite tough. To hear all about how to stay young, subscribe to the podcast on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.