Woman's Hour - Romance fraud, the Sex Discrimination Act, Slady tribute band at Christmas

Episode Date: December 17, 2025

A man believed to be the UK’s most prolific romance fraudster, who conned a number of women into giving him almost a million pounds, has been jailed for seventeen years - the longest sentence ever handed down for romance fraud in the UK. Anna Rowe, founder of Catch the Catfish and a former victim of romance fraud joins Nuala.It’s 50 years this month since the Sex Discrimination Act was passed - a cause and campaign which united women across classes and generations. Historian Dr Lyndsey Jenkins tells us about the struggle to make it law, and the impact it had on women’s lives.This morning we reveal that the Home Office is planning to expand a pilot scheme where domestic abuse specialists are embedded in police 999 control rooms to advise officers handling calls. They listen in, provide feedback, run training sessions for call handlers and ensure victims are pointed to support services. This pilot was introduced earlier this year under "Raneem's law" after Raneem Oudeh and her mother Khaola Saleem were murdered by Raneem's ex partner. Raneem had called West Midlands police 14 times to report concerns about her safety. Her aunt Nour Norris has campaigned for this change and joins Nuala in the studio.We celebrate the phenomenon of female tribute acts to male bands. Gobby Holder, aka Danie Cox of Slady and Lolo Wood of The Fallen Women and Ye Nuns tell us how their audiences have grown.

Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello, this is Nula McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, a man has been sentenced to 17 years in prison for romance fraud, the longest ever sentence imposed for that crime in the UK. We're going to hear all about that case and also why romance scams are on the wrong. rising

costing UK victims £106 million pounds in 2024. That is according to the Financial Conduct Authority. Also today,

let us go back in our time machine. Now, not to the Jane Austin era, which was just wonderful yesterday, thanks for everybody who got in touch,

but to 50 years ago before the Sex Discrimination Act of 1975. Here's a few facts. Employers could openly refuse to hire women for certain jobs.

Banks could refuse loans, mortgages or credit cards to women unless a husband approved. Landlords could refuse to rent to someone because they were a woman or unmarried. That's just a smitten of what was happening. We're going to discuss the impact of the Act this hour. But I thought maybe you'd also like to share what improvements you or maybe your mom or another woman in your life experienced due to the Sex Discrimination Act. How did you see things change?

You can text the program 84844, social media or at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note that's 0-3-700-100-444. Also today, a new initiative by the government will expand domestic abuse specialists' presence in 999 police control rooms. We're going to hear more from the woman

who has campaigned for this change. And all-female tribute bands Slady, the Fallen Woman. We'll hear from those that are flipping the script Gobby Holder will be with me. That is all coming up. But let me begin with the man

believed to be the UK's most prolific romance fraudster. He conned a number of women into giving him almost a million pounds. He has been jailed for 17 years. As I mentioned, it is thought to be the longest sentence ever handed down for romance fraud in the UK. His name was Nigel Baker. He was from Essex. He posed as a successful

businessman. He's 56 years of age. He's 56 years of age and targeted five women, all single mothers. The women included a police officer, a businesswoman and an accountant. He met them all on dating sites, spinning lies and then luring them into handing over hundreds of thousands of pounds before betting away their savings. I want to bring in Anna Rowe, who's the founder of catch at catfish.com. She herself has been a victim of romance fraud and joins me now to discuss. the impact of this case. Good to have you with us. Apparently the longest sentence ever given for this crime. Your thoughts on that? Yeah, it's definitely the longest one that I've heard

and it's really encouraging because it means that across the judicial system, we're actually getting judges that understand now about the impact of the emotional manipulation and psychological manipulation that takes place that is the thing that actually stays with victims for years and years and years after, if it ever leaves them at all. I did see there was in 23, there was David Checkley who conned at least 10 women out of £100,000. He was jailed for 11 years.

But coming to this man, Mr Baker, he posed as a successful businessman on dating apps, as I mentioned, targeting divorced single mothers. I was wondering what you thought when you read his profile in that way. It's the typology of this is very, very typical of not just in-person romance fraud, but the online overseas

romance fraud as well. So mine as well was using dating apps and he was hunting for mainly single mothers, also people that had pets in their profiles. So I think people don't realize but there is a vulnerability of sorts, not just when you're a single mother, but also when you're putting yourself out to find a new relationship. So it's a slam dunk for them, unfortunately. Can I ask you a bit more about that, Anna,

whatever you're comfortable sharing about your case? And I'll get into that in a moment, but just the pets in the picture, what's the story there? So if you've got pets in your picture, it means that you're normally empathetic, you've got a caring nature. For owls particularly, we had dogs and horses in our pictures,

which meant that we were also cleverly for his situation, bound to be looking after them at home. So we weren't people that were going to be going off or demanding holidays and things like that. So that was very important to him. Can you tell me any more about what happened? So, yeah, my case, it was literally 10 years ago this year, which is frightening in itself.

Mine wasn't a financial case, but the emotional manipulation was exactly the same, and it was that that drew me into doing what I do now. So mine was a lawyer here in the UK who was leading a double life with a fake identity. He groomed us online for several months and then came offline to meet his victims. So there was a sexual intent behind his motive.

So let's talk about the manipulation. as you understand it, not specifically personally, but in the sense of how a scammer uses that. Yeah, I mean, it is literally the same across domestic violence relationships right through the spectrum of romance fraud, whatever the intent, and through onto the online romance frauds as well. And it was that that started my healing journey when a therapist actually said to me,

I think knowledge is power to you, and I want you to go and research narcissists and psychopaths. And once I started doing that and seeing other people's experiences with these personality types, I could recognise it and draw on that and start to understand how he had done what he did to me, which was really important to start moving forward, if you like. Because I think there is, with any sort of scam, whether it's romance or otherwise, still a misplaced, I would say, sense of shame or sometimes humiliation about being taken in. Absolutely. And I can't tell you enough that victims blame themselves more than anybody needs to be blaming themselves, let alone with the stigma in society about this, because it is largely misunderstood, especially this aspect of it. It's an incredibly powerful and intense manipulation that you'll put through. And it all starts with grooming where they're collecting information about you. They're setting the scene and the expectations about what will happen. And they create a

that is modelled specifically for you based on all of the information that they've collected. So they're literally mirroring back at you yourself with all of your ideals, your morals, your ethics, your beliefs. And for the first time in your life, you actually feel like you've met someone that gets you because you're looking back at you. It's so interesting and creepy at the same time. There are these various terms that are bandied about perhaps a bit too flippantly, you know, on social media, love bombing, trauma bonding, future faking. Can you explain a little with those? I mean, the real meaning of them.

Yeah, absolutely. So the grooming is, as it implies, and we've all got a slightly better understanding of what that is now. But then once they've done that, they move you into love bombing. And it happens very, very quickly. And this isn't when someone's just calling you sweet pet names. it is an all-consuming manipulation where they are at you 24-7 bombarding you with messages and attention. And a lot of the time when we're vulnerable or people that have low self-esteem and low self-worth, this is intoxicating and actually feels addictive. And it does that because

as they do it, all of these chemicals and hormones are released in your body. And that's what your body remembers. So they literally put you on a pedestal. You become the most important. important person in their life. And for the first time, maybe your opinions matter. Once they've got you in that position and you've got this huge influx of hormones and chemicals in your body, trauma bonding then starts to kick in. And it's a very clever tactic used across all romance frauds where if they, for example, ask you for something and it doesn't have to be financial, they are testing the water to see if you will comply. And if you don't comply in the right way or respond in the right way,

they will vanish for a few days. And that, after that incredibly intense love bombing, means that suddenly you fear that you've lost the first time amazing connection that you've had. And in the way that that works is that when they come back and they will, you are then more compliant to what they want because you don't want to ever. ever feel again what that felt like when they vanished. It's really quite something, the way that you outline it and say that it's applicable in so many situations and particularly these romance scams that we're talking about

this morning. But the future faking is those promises of a future life together? Absolutely. So future faking is exactly what this guy did here when he was saying that the investment was for their life together in the future. And so it was going to, it was to benefit them as a couple. mine did exactly the same here saying that we were going to make home improvements

and things like that. We're planning holidays and none of that was ever going to happen but it was all to secure the misconception of a relationship. Yeah, I mentioned at the top there as well I want to come back to I suppose how knowledgeable perhaps that the justice system is now,

you mentioned it's becoming better at this sort of case. There was a police officer they came forward admitting that they were scammed by Baker. Another one was an accountant as we talk about law and money and finance and scams. How have you seen what's changed or what needs to change? So again, there's a huge misconception that people that are targeted and exploited in this way are stupid.

That for some, in some strange world, it's caused through lack of education and intelligence. it's actually caused through being human. And as we can tell with this police officer, and 60% of scam victims actually have a degree or above level education. It has absolutely nothing to do with that, to be targeted and exploited in that way. These criminals and these individuals use human nature as a way to exploit.

They understand human nature better than anybody, and they will use all of those trust cues as a way to exploit you. So being human makes you vulnerable in these situations. Do you think there's something the justice system could be doing better? You meant to talk about it and improving in a way, obviously with the sentence, that that's been given to Nigel Barker. Excuse me, I think it's Baker. Forgive me, let me just, yes, indeed.

Nigel Baker, who is the person who's in the centre of this particular story. it's taken a long time and in the years that I've been campaigning for better recognition and understanding about this, I've seen a huge change and that is because although victims have recognised this manipulation in the way that we're exploited, the officers and everybody else that dealt with it didn't. And that is still largely the case, unfortunately. But academics started to do research and they've put that into the, you know, the world now. And so people are better placed to recognise and believe academics. They're not very good at believing victims. And it's a godsend because it has started to move mountains. But the

other problem is that the legislation around this is often misunderstood and not used to its full potential. So coercive control in domestic violence can be used as a way forward to get these criminals in in person romance fraud in particular because economic and financial abuse is part of that so in intimate relationships in person that can be used but also obviously this this guy they got him on fraud by misrepresentation because there were clear lines of inquiry to show that those relationships were created for that purpose and I don't have response obviously from the justice department or indeed the police as you mentioned there you'd like them to act perhaps differently in certain circumstances

and I do want to also let people know that there is action line on the BBC's website to help with scams in particular and it does of course affect so many people somebody's got in touch this says more needs to be done to help victims with the complex PTSD that they're left with

due to the intensity of that trauma bonding it can happen to anyone who has empathy and natural vulnerabilities yeah that's and it's absolutely true And we need to understand that because it's the people that say, well, that would never happen to me that are actually most vulnerable because their guard isn't up to recognising those very first signs.

You know, you mentioned what happens and how somebody can be groomed. I think this time of year as well, people can at times be vulnerable. And I'm just wondering what you would say to a listener to reduce the risk. So I think we need to recognise in ourselves when we're not feeling calm and normal because we can be vulnerable for so many reasons and it's not what a lot of people frame it as. It can be that you're incredibly overwhelmed or that you're lonely that creates a hot state as it's called in psychology.

And when you're in anything but a cold state, you are more vulnerable to being targeted and exploited and manipulated. So that's the first thing. It's recognizing when you're calm and that there isn't anything else going on in your life. But then also it's to recognize that a healthy relationship is normally slow-paced and calm, and you will never feel overwhelmed in that. But all of these relationships will start incredibly intensely. And we need to be able to recognize that, that it's very fast-paced,

that it does seem too good to be true in the respect that this is the first time that you've met someone that really, really gets you. So it's important we recognise that feeling in ourselves. And if we do get that feeling, it's to take a step back and not be afraid to ask a friend or family member to take a look at the situation with you because the second those hormones and chemicals start flying around your body.

Which is like falling in love? It is, but it's like that on. steroids with these people. And it does happen. You're exactly right. It's the honeymoon period where we do have that happening. But with these individuals and how intense this manipulation is, it's like that kicked up three times stronger. So when you're in that position, we don't see red flags anymore. We only see beige flags. So you need someone from the outside to look in to be able to with a fresh pair of eyes go through it with you. I'll let you go on it. But did anybody try and warn you? No, they didn't. So maybe that's also something for those that are around others to try

and help them stay safe as well. Anna Rowe, founder of catch-a-catfish.com. Thanks so much for joining us this morning on Women's Hour. You're very welcome. Having me. 8444-4, if you would like to get in touch. Gender discrimination, says Debbie, in the early 70s, my father had been taken into hospital permanently as he had multiple cirrhosis and had a loan on a car and my mother wasn't able to cancel it due to the fact she was a woman. Also she couldn't divorce him for five years.

I was asking for some of your stories of how the next thing that we're going to talk about affected you or your life. I'm talking about the Sex Discrimination Act. The bill passed on the 29th of December 1975 so 50 years coming into force alongside

the Equal Pay Act which gave stronger protections for workers, notably in relation to maternity rights. Sex discrimination was a cause that united women across classes and generations there were some men also championing the bill. With me in studio is Dr. Lindsay Jenkins. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks so much for having me.

Good to have you with us. Lindsay is a historian of women's politics and activism at the University of Oxford. She focuses on women's rights and women's liberation movement from the 50s to the 70s and have been examining the origins of the Sex Discrimination Act.

So interesting when I'm I started delving into it as well. Maybe we'll go back and have a thing. Debbie kind of kicking us off there. What life was like for women in the 70s before the act? Absolutely. So in some ways, women as a group have never been better off. They've been among the main beneficiaries of the Postal welfare state.

Their health is better than it's ever been. Education's better than it's ever been. The housing is better than it's ever been. And there have been important reforms around divorce, rights to abortion, the pills come in and work is becoming increasingly normal for women so where it before might have been the exception or something a bit odd

and this is very much now a standard but still women are primarily seen as mothers and wives they're still very much responsible for all the domestic work and the childcare, working mothers are very suspect and of course women are concentrated in the lowest paid and the lowest status occupation so we find single mothers for example and older women are among some of the poorest groups in Britain at this time.

What were they not allowed to do? I mentioned a couple at the top of the programme, but give us a longer list. Yeah, absolutely. So women in many respects are still very much second-class citizens, and you gave some examples. So, for example, men would have the primary rights in their home. They have the primary rights of children. If women have – and men have joint passports, women can't travel unless the husband is with them. And the other thing you mentioned is –

This is the 70s. is the 70s. And it's very, it is very, very kind of 70s. So the other thing you mentioned is the lack of access to money. And that's so striking that women just aren't trusted. And they can't get mortgages, insurance, credit, without men. And it's perfectly legal and it's perfectly normal to discriminate against women at work. So, you know, to hire a man just because you'd prefer a man, for example. But it's also that kind of, I guess, the patronising attitude that really is so normalised and so, so, so. such a part of everyday life and the kind of very minor indignities like you might go into a bar and they could perfectly legitimately refuse to serve you. I was refused being served.

I remember that. Yeah, such a common experience. That was even, and that was Ireland but it was in the 80s and it was just kind of a social norm which I guess in the UK after the Discrimination Act it would not have been allowed.

Yeah, but women have to take the particular bars to court in order to kind of make that happen. Like one by one? Well, once you've done it to one And what do you think? Was it really work, the world of work that was the catalyst? It's certainly one of them. And it partly is because the world of work is changing so much. And yet on the other hand, it's not changing very fast at all. So there is still so few women in professions like banking or finance or the law. I mean, at this point, for example, women have been able to qualify as doctors for nearly 100 years. But still, there's tiny minorities and there are quotas on them at medical school. So it's much. harder for women to become doctors than men. And it's mostly assumed that women who want to work

will either kind of go into teaching or they'll go into clerical work and they're kind of shunted into that regardless of what they would actually like to do. But work is really important to women, not just in terms of income, but in terms of their self-worth and value. And so it's not just professional women who are interested in expanding their rights. It's women in shops and offices and factories. They also want the kind of status, the training, the opportunities that their male colleagues have. Let's talk about Joyce Butler. So a backbench MP for Wood Green between 1955 and 1979 and very much a key figure in this battle to get the legislation passed. Yeah, she's an extremely interesting woman, has a long history of advocating for women's rights.

For example, she was working with women's organisations to extend cervical cancer screening to women. and she kind of has this, what she calls a light on the road to Damascus moments where she realizes if we want to make equal pay a reality, we need to have sex discrimination legislation that will back it up so that women, as well as having the right to equal pay, they will have the opportunities, the training, the prospects that will enable them to make that a reality. And so she comes up with this idea for equal opportunities legislation that will give women particular rights and it will also set up a board so that if women have got complaints about the way they're being treated at work, they can take those to the board and have them adjudicated. Interesting. But she did have to try and bring this bill before Parliament four times. There was huge resistance. Yeah, it's very interesting.

So I have access to her archive, which is in Haringay, where she was from. And she was a Labour politician. Exactly. And so the first thing that she does is she writes to Harold Lawson, who's then the prime minister, the leader of her party and says, you know, this will be a great idea. This is the way that we can make equal pay happen. And he says, no, I don't think so.

He says, actually, we're doing enough. This is something for women to solve themselves. If only they would stand up for themselves, take responsibility, join trade unions. This will happen eventually. They just need to be patient. And so this is a kind of common attitude. She comes up a lot against inertia as well as opposition, this idea that the reason that women aren't in these professions is because they just don't want to be.

And so there's a kind of big social and cultural attitudes. that she needs to overcome. It's so interesting because some of the stuff that you're saying from 50 years ago, I feel like I hear some of those echoed as I present this programme when we go into various areas or industry that the women I speak to today have been told that at some point as well. I want to hear and bring the voices to our listeners. Some of the women who nationwide took the time to write to Joyce Butler

when they heard about her campaign, The letters are voiced by some of the women's our team. Tiptree, Essex. I note with joy that you're about to put a bill before the House on women's rights. I have felt very strongly for a great many years how very unfair women's inferior position is in this country. I feel that once we get equal pay,

it'll go a long way to men having more respect for us, and we for ourselves. Since I go to work, I could not devote much time to the cause, but I can certainly write letters to MPs, women's organisations, the Prime Minister, etc. I should warn you, I'm not good at all at speeches or organising anything.

Belper, Derbyshire. As a single woman, I earn much less than a man. I share a home with my unmarried sister. We pull our money and when our expenses are paid, we have very little left for ourselves, much less save. We have to pay as much as a man for coal, gas, electric light, public transport and house repairs. We get no reduction on these things because we are women on a low wage.

Now, after 25 years, I'm working in a factory where mostly women are employed, working class women. Women who just accept the fact that they are not the equals of men, because they have had it drilled into them by their mothers and fathers since they were born. They will never fight for their rights because they just don't believe that they have any. Nearly all the women I work with are middle-aged, many widowed, divorced or separated from their husbands. A lot of them are in poor health. But in spite of it all, they are cheerful and fun to be with. I have a tremendous admiration for these women.

a better future. So once again, may you have every success with your bill. Liverpool. I was very pleased to read of your suggested board to deal with discrimination against women. This is a problem that has long been overlooked in favour of racial discrimination, yet it is just as serious. As a student for the past three years, I have been made painfully aware of the problem. I didn't imagine that discrimination existed at the graduate level. One is repeatedly told the country needs more graduates. The truth is that this year there are too many arts graduates fighting for too few jobs, and employers will not, on the whole, consider women. I'm rather tired of being told at interviews that as I am bound to get married in the near future

and start a family, it would be a waste of time training me. Enfield, Middlesex, on behalf of postwomen, bus conductresses, underground gals, may I wish you a lot of luck from us all in your effort to speak for us? Getting seniority is always ignored. We have been temporary postwomen for 20 years. I hope this is being altered, but I don't see any signs yet of any women being higher-grade postmen or inspectors on buses, etc. I felt I just had to let you know how it warms my heart to even see anything in print for the good of us females. London, as a young woman intending to make a career at a high level in business and well aware of the prejudice I shall have to combat,

I should like to express my heartfelt gratitude to yourself and your colleagues for introducing a measure whereby that totally irrational prejudice may be forced to yield. The courage you have afforded me is immeasurable. Liverpool. May I make a plea for the most exploitative workers, the woman shop assistant. The USDAW, the union that covers such workers, differentiates between the pay for men and women. Here is a job where both sexes are doing identical jobs.

I know all the old arguments, a man has a family to keep, and greater commitments, but these will not stand in this day and age. The wages are an insult to. the amount of work expected. The thousands of women working in these conditions must realise that only by combined action can paying conditions be improved. Women banded together for 50 years for the vote.

Surely we can do the same for equality. That's great to hear some of those, isn't it, Lindsay? Joyce Butler used the Race Relations Act of 1965 as an inspiration for what the Sex Discrimination Act could look like. why did she take that path? Yeah, so in 1965 and 68 there'd been really important

race relations legislation which was about outlawing discrimination in areas like housing and employment and they too had also kind of used this model where you would set up a board that you could take your complaints to and she thought that could be a helpful precedent and people in the Labour Party at this time

are also kind of inspired by the American civil rights movement and the steps that are being taken there. Now later on problems become apparent with this model but at the time it looks, quite promising. And that's the model that she thinks, okay, it works in this situation. It should work for women too. And what about women of colour at this time? Yeah. And so we'll have heard in the letters one of them kind of referring to legislation on race being done before legislation on sex. And there is among some women this attitude that racial discrimination is

being taken more seriously than sexual discrimination. But of course the problem with that is it leaves women of colour out the conversation entirely. And that's particularly important at this time because women of colour are becoming increasingly important in the workplace, and yet they are some of the most exploited workers. They are subject to some of the most appalling treatment and also the lowest pay. And that's a combination of both racism and sexism. And of course it would be hard for these women to determine whether their poor treatment would be the result of race.

So if you've got these two separate boards, where should you take your complaint to? So black women, women of colour, have to really be very proactive in advocating for their rights. And actually the year after the sex discrimination comes in, there's the famous strikes at the Granic photoprocessing plant, which are led by South Asian women. And it's not just women of colour. There's also, there's no place in this conversation yet for disability. There are very interesting letters in the archive from gay rights activists at this time who are saying, okay, if you're outlawing discrimination on the grounds of sex, you should also be doing so on the grounds of sexual orientation. And actually, that legislation doesn't

come in until the 2000s. I also want to bring a voice. This is there were dissenting women as well. Here's one from Bournemouth. It is my opinion that you do the greatest disservice to women by introducing your bill for equal pay in all spheres. I have been engaged in commerce and industry since I was 17 and I'm now nearly 60. There is no doubt that I should not be engaged in my present position

if I had insisted on receiving a man's salary for a job, which is one normally done in this area by a man. It is quite obvious that if my salary was the same as a man's, my employer would prefer to employ a man, since at the same price, that would be the better choice. But the bill was passed. Not everybody happy with it. Some saying it hadn't gone far enough.

Do you think it was a feminist success story? Yeah, I mean, it's still a very mixed picture. There's so much that's left out, anything to do with pensions or taxes or benefits. smaller employees, the army is left out, the church is left out, and there are kind of real weaknesses. It says nothing, for example, about pregnant women. And in fact, when women try and bring cases that they've been discriminated against because they're pregnant, you can't actually make that case because since a man can't get pregnant, there's no one

that you can compare yourself to. And the Equal Opportunities Commission, which is the board that Joyce Butler had envisioned, turns out to be quite toothless in practice. But on the other And, you know, it does have a tremendous effect. Some of the women that we've heard from were talking about ideas about self-worth and respect. And it gives women this tool to realise that, you know, sex discrimination isn't just something that they have to put up with. And they are able to kind of take steps to address it. It takes a lot of work by activists and campaigners and lawyers in particular to kind of make it a reality. But it does make a difference.

Here's one from Catherine. My mum worked at a bank. And when she was married in 1955, she was told she had to leave to become a housewife. another in 1963 my mother researched the local schools and selected what she thought was the best one for my older brother to attend however as my father wouldn't sign

the application form he ended up going elsewhere and one from Suki she said I had to quote the Sex Discrimination Act at my comprehensive school in 1976 to force them to allow me to do technical drawings for my O level so just some of the stories coming in

I want to thank you very much Lindsay for coming in And I want to mention that Lindsay has recently curated an exhibition at Bruce Castle Museum and Archive in Haringay, which showcases the life and work of choice butler, the protagonist in this story, who have we, as we have just learned, originally came up with the idea for the act. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. Now, I want to know, have you caught our new podcast, Send in the Spotlight, on BBC Sounds? This week's episode is all about EHCPs, four letters that take a moment to say, but can be a long and frustrating battle to get one.

EHCP stands for Education, Health and Care Plan. It is the highest level of support for a child with special educational needs or disabilities. Episode two, as I mentioned on BBC Sounds, if you subscribe, you will never miss one. So why don't you do that? Lots of tips, I should say, and help and advice. Anna Maxwell Martin joins me as does Alex Stafford from Ipsi which are one of the groups

she's a lawyer who gives advice to parents who are in the thick of it. 844-844 romance fraud my ex stole my life savings not of a name he also stole my trust it is three years later I still cannot date

as my trust is destroyed police are investigating but it took almost a year for them to pick up the case There are eight other women involved. It was his career. He's still doing it. I'm destroyed, as are the others that he has left in his wake responding to the first story that we were covering this morning. That longest sentence given to a romance fraud, a scammer in the UK that has happened this week. Well, this morning, we can exclusively reveal that the Home Office is planning to expand a pilot scheme

where domestic abuse specialists are in police control rooms to advise officers handling 9-99 calls. The pilot has been operating in five police forces since February with the specialists listening in to live calls and then running training sessions for call handlers and also trying to ensure that victims are pointed to support services immediately. It was introduced under Reneem's law.

This is after Reneem Uda and her mother, Kala Salim, were murdered by Rene. Neem's ex-partner, Jan Baz Tarin, that was in 2018. Reneem had spoken to West Midlands police 14 times about concerns for her safety in the months leading up to her death. Her aunt Noor Norris has campaigned for this change. We'll speak to Noor in just a moment. But first I want to bring you Tia. Now, Tia has been working in Northumbria's police control rooms as a specialist domestic abuse advisor.

And I asked Tia how her role works on a day-to-day basis. So we sit within the control rooms, the court handlers, they can wave me down and say, okay, I'm on a call now, I can go over with my headset, plug myself in, listening and off at any sort of support then. I can listen back to the calls as well, and we're looking at what the risk could be. I've then reviewed it. I've had the time to look back at the history of the case and say, actually, maybe this should be a little bit higher than what we've expected it to be. we can re-look at that grading. We've done that quite a few times

and send officers out or maybe a higher response. What sort of grades are they? Grade one, which is an emergency, grade two, where it's still, you know, high risk. We still need someone to be seen that day or then we have an appointment system after that.

You mentioned grade one there being an emergency. What would that be? Someone's life at risk. Is there any particular notable successes that you've had since the pilot started? We've had a log which has came in as a sort of a grade two, the person is vulnerable, I've listened back to the call

but also looked at the history and saw that only the week before there'd been a high-risk incident. We've realised that she's more at risk than what she's made out over the form because it is really hard for victims and survivors sometimes to grasp their own risk as well. And so we've looked at the higher risk incident the week before, what's happened today, based solely just on the incident that happened that day,

it would have been a grade two, but when we look at the history and we look at how risk can escalate, we've upgraded the call to a higher level so that police can go out straight away. What was the outcome of that particular case? So the officers went out on a grade one, they were able to make some positive, police actions where they've arrested the mail.

They've then contacted myself and we've went through sort of everything that the victims told them as well. So looking at is it safe for the victim to stay in the home which she wanted to which was absolutely fine and we've then looked at what security measures can be part in the house. So then looking at

like letterbox jammers cameras on the home. Why did you want to take part in this? What was it that appealed and that you thought you could do that other, that that the previous services were not able to offer. I don't think there's ever been a service sort of for this,

which I think was quite interesting. Within the control rooms, and there's definitely been a gap. So I think that's probably what pushed me to want to do it. It's not been there. We can develop something really good, really great that will help the victims get the right support. That was Tia.

Thanks very much to her. Listening to that is the aunt Afronymudah Nournors, who as I mentioned, has campaigned for domestic abuse specialists like Tia to sit in 999 police control rooms. Good to have you with us, Nour. Hi, good morning to have a little of the listeners. When you hear a little of the work that Tia is doing,

the pilot was launched in February and as we say this morning, there is a plan to expand that scheme. Is it working as you expected it to? First of all, let me just express. my feeling towards having the 999 control room specialist and all the involvement that went on with that I think is is a must have tool law whatever you're going to call it because it's not just a having just a specialist in the control room is

because beyond that we have a huge different shift culture shift from going from having nothing for people being abused into a major system that gets put in place. And part of it is the specialist, which they do a marvellous job, which I'm really grateful to see it taking place, even though I wanted it to be a bit more faster, more speed to implementing the law. Because when we say time means victims, and we need to really safeguard them as quick as possible. Yes, because I mentioned the 14 calls that Reneem had made four, I believe, on the night that they were killed, your sister and your niece, and they called the police four times. And I know that must be very difficult to think about. Can you tell me a little bit about Reneem and Kowla what they were like?

Yeah, I mean, Kowla and Reneem, there were beautiful women, mother who was 49, the daughter was 22. We both lived in Solihull, we had an amazing life, very simple, and we just enjoyed each other's company. They were great women, and we were very happy, very simple, and they wanted to do better in life. Reneem, she was amazing young woman who had a future ahead of her, and everyone knows them, loved them at the time, and still do. But the most important aspect of this is what Reneem's law has come from, came from a tragedy, came from somewhere where anybody in the country could get exposed to. And when I went to the inquest after we lost them, I realized that this is not just our story, not just our family we lost, actually the whole country's tragedy.

Why? Because of the amount of failing. And at the time, I looked at it and said, this is not just in a single incident. to a family, this is a whole crisis for the country. And I saw the, I was very close to just to the, most of the failing in the country at the time. And do you feel with having that domestic abuse specialist within that control room, have you got any direct feedback from the home office, for example, about how it's going or how you understand it? I work closely with the home office because I do my campaigns called Secure Life and I did ever since we won that inquest against the system and the campaign really campaigned for

Ronin's law. Renim, she made 13 calls and she spoke to police 14 times and all her calls were never linked, meaning that every time she called that was treated as a single call now. but Reneem is law that doesn't really happen and that's why the specialists are able to trace the calls. Reports were written, now reports are all there. So there's a huge shift

in culture change and evolve the system. So that's interesting and I did hear from Tia that they're basically trying to put together a compass a picture of all the previous calls or basically a profile of what has happened thus far. I know Reneem had a non-molestation

order in place against her ex-partner that's a civil court injunction to keep somebody away. Reneem had to seek that for herself. But we know the police actually didn't know about it. You've mentioned some of the information sharing that is going on. So on the whole, you feel it's already improved? It's going towards there, but obviously there's still a lot to do. We're talking here about going for nothing for domestic abuse

into all this new laws and all new registration and all that. And it's going to take time. And I do understand, even though I do have frustration and I push for more change. I spoke a few weeks ago to the Sir Keir's time I promised her. And he said to me, no, push us for more, challenge us more. And it's nice to know that the government recognized that eventually. But I do understand how much gaps in the system is, we have nothing.

We have nothing for domestic abuse. And just to have that culture change is a massive thing. But obviously, I always, my campaign concentrates on secure life means everyone has a right to live. And how can we make that happen so quickly to preventing death in the future? And so prevention and early intervention is sticky. And then rolling out everything is really important. I do have a statement from the home office. As spokesperson said, Reneem and Kowla's legacies continue.

to live on seven years after they lost their lives. Our work to embed domestic abuse specialist in 999 control rooms continues ensuring domestic abuse victims across the country get the expert response they deserve. It is our mission to have violence against women and girls within the next decade and our violence against women and girls' strategy being published tomorrow will do exactly that. It is targeted at preventing these awful crimes,

tackling perpetrators so they can't offend again and helping victims get justice. Of course, people are very interested. in each detail that comes out. What would you like to see announce tomorrow? I would like to see every force in the country uses the Reneem's Law as soon as possible. But I understand that, sadly, sad enough is every force they operate in a different way. And Reneem's Law is such a big law that when it went into every station,

it really changed the whole work process in there. so it has affected other calls. So basically you have a system, not just a control room specialist, but you have a new system, a new strategies. You have a different kind of shifting in a control on answering calls,

how they filter it. So it has affected other areas in the 999 control room. So we see even tighten a law coming in place because of Rennem's law, like for instance electric tags and that is really important because you link everything together

and then Reneem's loss it's like an umbrella where we are tackling every angle that goes wrong and has failed in the past but really we want to save as many lives as possible and then take it and expand it into prevention preventing people from harm from suicide from being abused and live in fear, chronic fear all the time. Noor Norris, thank you so much for speaking to us.

Noor is the aunt of Reneem and the sister of Kaola. And talking about this new plan, which is to expand a pilot scheme where domestic abuse specialist will be in 9-99 police control rooms to advise officers handling calls if you have been affected by any of the issues I've been speaking about with Noor. please go to the BBC's action line page for links and support.

Now, 84844, if you would like to get in touch, some of you've been talking about gender discrimination, other ones about romance scams. But I want to move on to something completely different. Female tribute bands. And, you know, there's a lot of music playing right at the moment around Christmas. I suppose there's one song that springs to mind. Would it be Slade's Merry Christmas?

Slady, an all-female tribute band, keeping the glam rock sound alive. And we've got quite a few female tribute bands that are flipping the script. Women stepping into the spotlight to perform those iconic hits of legendary male bands, some with power, style and attitude. I'm joined by Gubby Holder. Hi, how are you doing? From Slady, otherwise known as Danny Cox. And we have Lolo Wood, who is in the band The Fallen Women,

who play tribute to the fall and a singer of Ye Nuns a tribute to the 1960s band The Monks who I was not familiar with before this. But let me bring you in. Danny, Gobby. Gobby, Gobby Older.

Okay, Gobby. I think you need to describe your outfit first for radio listeners. It's 100% polyester and it's Clash of the Tartans. So I've got quite a lot of tartan going on here. Got a lot of stripes going on here. And, I mean, I'm impressed with the level of eye makeup as well for this hour in the morning.

Yes. Well, I did get up about three hours earlier than I should have just to apply it. Well, we appreciate it. But this must be a very busy time for Sladey right now. Oh, it's being absolutely crazy. I mean, it's the most lucrative time of the year. And, okay, lucrative. That is definitely one reason why you might create a tribute band to Slade.

But what was the reason? The reason being we, me and my friend, well, she was my bassist in crime. Is she still your friend? Yes. Wendy Solomon, she plays Gemley, who is Jimley in Slade. And we just wanted to have a little bit of fun. We were both musicians at the time doing our own stuff. But we wanted to do something for a laugh, a little bit of fun, to go down the pub and get on stage, do a couple of numbers,

and go, ha, ha, ha, we're Sladey, we're the female Slade. and then it just Our first show that we played people were coming from all over Germany, Ireland just to come and see us play a pub in South End and then we just became part of this and for me who's a massive Slade fan

to sort of be adopted by a whole Slade fan community has been absolutely amazing So you're staying close to the original sound and style? Yes, more energy I think as well So I feel like it's more of an energy rather than a colour by numbers, Slade. That's a lot of energy.

Yeah, if you can imagine Slade reborn or Slade in another dimension where they were all women, that's kind of what we're going for. Sladey. Who came up with that? Me. It's genius. Let me bring in Lolo. So you play keyboards in The Fallen Women

and singer, as I mentioned, in you. nons. That's right, yeah. But you also set up the all-female tribute to Juran-Juran called Joanne Joanne. That's true, yes. I love this. I mean, I even just love the names before we even get to the music. But if you played keyboards for Joanne Joanne, Lolo, were you a fan of Nick Rhodes?

Were you trying to channel him? Oh, absolutely. No, he was my favourite member. And the reason I didn't choose to be the singer in Juan Jouin, is because I'd be too jealous of whoever got to be Nick Rhodes. Also, Nick Rhodes, a man known for wonderful makeup. Indeed, yeah. And that's, you know, that was part of the reason I wanted to do as well. So let's talk a little bit about your tribute bands. The Fallen Women.

What's happening with them? You have your, it's a tribute to the fall. Yes. Give me a little flavor of what people could expect. Now, it's a tribute to the fall played by women. Well, non-men, because we do have a couple of non-binary members as well. But the twist is that everyone in the audience can be Markey Smith, the singer of the fall, for one song. So we have, sometimes we get famous people

like Sharon Horgan and Stuart Lee coming up to do songs, and sometimes it's just random people from the audience. Did I see Maxine Peak? Yes. Yes, she did the song with us as well, yeah, yeah. But how does that happen? Well, when we find out that somebody is a fall fan,

I have to confess that we do stalk them a little bit and ask them if they want to do a song with us. Yes, yes, it does, yes. And how would you describe Marky Smith's style what it was? It's very difficult to describe. It's kind of a half-singing, half-talking style. So you don't actually need to be able to sing in pitch in order to channel Markey Smith.

I mean, he could sing. There's one song called Edinburgh Man, which shows that he could actually sing, but he chose to just have this very idiosyncratic focal most of the time which is really fun to do exactly the monks I'd never heard of right well I got into the monks through the fall actually and I think most people my age had because the fall covered a couple of their songs but the monks what American kind of punk well they were American GIs stationed in Germany in the 1960s they were the anti-Beatles basically

they were on the same Hamburg circuit as the Beatles and but they were singing, I hate you with a passion baby instead of she loves you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for that, what costumes do you have then for the monks? Well, I do dress as, the monks did dress as monks and shaved tonsures into their heads. I looked at some photographs this morning, I have to say,

and it was not, it was surprising. Yeah. So I do wear a nun's habit. my mum was an actual nun and hang on a second my mum was a daughter of charity of Vincent de Paul in Dullery

and then in France so yeah I'm channeling my mum's pre-marriage was there a habit in the wardrobe somewhere there wasn't though unfortunately I have to go to Halloween shops to get mine but our banjo player did actually shave a tonsure into her head for one of the gigs

but it kind of grew back a bit weird so she didn't she didn't do it again That is, I mean, that is commitment to the cause. Who is coming to your gigs, Gobby? Danny. Like who in general or like how many people? No, I want to know. Men, women, like this is women's hour.

Give me, you've got an all-female tribute band that is up there. Who is attracted? When we first started, it was predominantly men. Predominantly men? It was. And we were playing for a long time. people's 60th birthday parties. But now it's families.

It's become like a family event. People bring in their teenagers along. There's so much nicer now to see a balance of women in the audience. And also it's a really good chance for people to get dressed and a good excuse to glitter and glam up. And yeah, even if you're not really a Slade fan, lots of people come along to hear the Slade hits, also the novelty around Christmas as well.

Christmas parties, Christmas nights out. And then people are genuinely quite surprised by actually how good Slade were for, you know, not just being a Christmas band. They were a brilliant 1970s glam rock band. And what about for you, Lolo, the audience? Yeah, well, with the fallen women, there are a lot of fall fans

who are really missing, being able to see the fall live since Markey Smith died. It is a, I wouldn't even say, predominantly men as much as the actual fall gigs used to be. I'd say it's a mixture of two and again people who aren't even particularly a fan of

the bands we cover end up at our gigs as well. When we were thinking about this this morning they are obviously all male bands that you are a tribute to well the fall did have various female members

over the years. That came true but have you thought about Like, is that part of it that it's kind of stepping into a very male space? Yeah, oh, absolutely, yeah. Lolo, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I went to see Dave Hill's Slade, and it was at the time, Dave Hill and Don Powell on drums.

And I just stood there, and I thought, well, initially what had happened, they were looking for a lead singer, and I applied for it, and I never got anything back. And I thought, actually, I can just do this. I can do a female Slade. You know, I just, and that's kind of like what I thought I'd do. So it wasn't really like going, I'm going to take on a bloke's job. It was more like, I can do this as well.

I think it must be very inspiring. I just before I let you go, have you watched Riot Women? I haven't, no. I've started watching it. Unfortunately, because I'm in Ireland, I don't have BBCR players. Oh, yes, that's right. I'm going to have to go back. I think you might.

I'm going to have to go back and last next time, well, like, when I'm in England next week, I'll be able to. You've got a gig coming up. I do, yes, this is why I'm in England next week. Where when? The Lexington in London on the 28th. Fantastic. And I'm playing Worthing, the live factory live worthing support in mud that sold out. The next one is at the Hairy Dog in Derby on the 21st.

And you have a mini album out. I'm going to let people know that as well. Wonderful to speak to both of you, gobbie holder, Danny Cox and Lolo Wood. What a lovely way to end this edition of Women's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Philippe Sands, and from BBC Radio 4 and the history podcast,

this is The Arrest, a race against time to apprehend a seemingly untouchable man. He had filed a flight plan until 6.30 in the morning. A former dictator accused of crimes against humanity. And I found louder there, and she says, they killed death. We cannot go in history.

story, having been those who abandoned the Spanish victims. And there is General Pinochet sitting in his bed and distract pajamas. I thought, oh my God, it really is him. The arrest. Listen first on BBC Sounds.