Woman's Hour - Rosamund Kissi-Debrah, No.10 - Women Behind the Scenes, Crime writer Claire McGowan, Gender Politics.

Episode Date: November 18, 2020

Rosamund Kissi-Debrah is number three on the Woman’s Hour Power List 2020: Our Planet. She is a tireless campaigner for cleaner air, following the tragic death of her daughter Ella from a series of severe asthma attacks. Since then she’s created powerful change from a grassroots level, influencing the Mayor of London and working with the World Health Organisation. She joins Jessica to speak about her work and her hopes for making a difference.Boris Johnson’s government has been criticised for its lack of women at the top table and for being run by a “toxic boys club” behind the scenes. The dramatic departure of Dominic Cummings and Lee Cain from Downing Street has led to calls for a female led reset at Number 10: The Prime Minister’s fiancée Carrie Symonds is a former conservative party strategist, the head of the No10 Policy Unit is Munira Mirza who is described as the PM’s “nonsense detector” and his new Press Chief is Allegra Stratton. Jessica Creighton talks about the power shift to Katie Perrior who was Chief of Staff for Theresa May and to Anji Hunter who was Tony Blair’s “gatekeeper” and longest serving aide.Crime writer Claire McGowan talks to Jessica about her new novel The Push, a murder mystery set in an antenatal group, where all the parents-to-be are keeping secrets.If you don’t feel you know enough about gender politics, a new – and free – course is now available online. It covers gender equality, gender history and stereotypes. It’s been developed by the University of Glasgow. New research indicates that nearly 9 million people in Britain don’t really understand what toxic masculinity is and nearly 8 million people said they didn’t know enough about LGBTQ rights. Jessica discusses the issues with Dr. Tanya Cheadle, Lecturer in Gender History at The University of Glasgow and Jordan Stephens, who is a mental health campaigner and one half of Rizzle Kicks.Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

This is the Woman's Hour podcast for Wednesday the 18th of November. Good morning, welcome to the programme. Now what do you know about toxic masculinity? It's become a bit of a buzzword recently, but for many people, well millions of you actually, you don't actually know what the term means. Hopefully we can clear that up for you on the programme today, because there's a new online course available on gender politics and we'll be talking to a lecturer of gender history and a mental health campaigner about it. Also, crime writer Claire McGowan joins us in the studio to discuss her new murder mystery,

The Push, which interestingly is set in an antenatal group. Lots of twists and turns in that one. Also, Boris Johnson's government has been criticised for so few women being at the top table and for being a bit of a toxic boys club behind the scenes. We'll be diving deep into that issue a little bit later in the morning. But first, if you've been listening to Woman's Hour this week, you'll know about the Power List 2020 Our Planet, celebrating 30 women who are doing amazing things, really, to improve the environment.

Number three on the list is Rosamund Kissy-Debra, who has campaigned for cleaner air following the death of her daughter Ella from a series of severe asthma attacks. And Rosamund is with me in the studio. Very good morning to you, Rosamund. Great to see you. Morning and lovely to see you too. And congratulations on being on the Power List list how did you react when you found out

I'm still laughing aren't I so that that would tell you it was such a shock but my immense thanks to the judges and everybody that emailed or I don't know how it was compiled. I am deeply, deeply honoured really. Massive smile on your face right now. Your eyes are glowing with joy. It's lovely to see. Just tell me a bit about the campaigning work you've been doing and tell me about your daughter Ella that passed away. Yes, it will be coming up to eight years now since my late daughter passed from one of the severest and rarest forms of asthma ever in the UK. And her inquest is coming up on the 30th of November. And I'm slightly a bit out of sorts because I've just been in court virtually this morning, literally just before I got on here. So that's coming up. And thank you to the public

again for supporting myself and my family through that. And what we are fighting is for justice for her to have on her death certificate, the true cause as to why she is no longer with us and it's been a long hard fight to get get here there'll be many challenges on the way and I've learned an awful lot on the way as well about air pollution and the absolutely damaging impact it has especially on the vulnerable which would include children in that and I continue to ask people and especially governments because we know this morning the government have now said that petrol and diesel is going to be phased out by 2030. This has been a long time coming. I don't feel there's anything really to celebrate because we're just getting in line

with the rest of Europe and there needs to be an awful lot of work to actually get us there they are creating jobs for 250,000 people not enough there needs to be far more action I came through London this morning and it's gridlocked even during lockdown.

So the action needs to be far more radical. And I am waiting to see, I think the Prime Minister is going to be making some announcements this week. So I'm waiting to hear what he's got to say. But to both him and the Mayor of London, children all over the country are suffering from diesel emissions and they need to start scrapping it now, not in 10 years time. So tell me about why this issue is so urgent, why do you want something to be done now, how did it affect Ella with her asthma? Ella's asthma was horrendous, this though isn't just about her. There's nothing we can do regarding my late daughter. Nothing's going to bring her back. But the fact that children continue to suffer in London alone, 250,000 children have asthma. This is not acceptable. Children continue to die. I think during lockdown was the only period I have heard that no child died. This is not acceptable in 2020. So parents whose children suffer from asthma know exactly what I'm talking about. And we now know there's a strong link between air pollution and asthma. And lots of,

it is the number one reason why children don't go to school in this country why children are off school because of asthma asthma is not just you know you see those pictures of a blue pump and things like that and you think there are lots of children who are admitted to hospital every year with asthma and thank you to the fantastic respiratory teams who keep all these young people going. This is a matter of life and death. And I am really not going to rest because I can't accept that any child in the 21st century is dying from asthma still. People ask me all the time. And it clearly is a matter of life and death. But you said that you've come across many challenges. Is there resistance to your campaign work? There is. We are very, well, it's not even that. We were told

at one stage that diesel was the saviour. We were, and lots of people went out and bought diesel. I don't blame them. Absolutely not. And also, we are heavily reliant on our cars. But again, people will be surprised. I will say I don't blame them. Why? Even this morning, there were adverts on the radio using a young child's voice selling cars. It's been constantly pumped to people. And the government really need to come out with a public health campaign to actually explain to the public why cars are dangerous or emissions are dangerous to people's health. You know, we can't live in a society where in every class, three or four children have asthma. And this is an area that you've campaigned in quite heavily. You've

worked with the World Health Organization, you've worked with the Mayor of London and used your influence. What was it like working with those organizations? They are incredibly supportive. I want the Mayor of London, and I'm saying it on the radio, I want him to include the North and South Circular in the ultra low emission zones because there are lots of children who walk on those roads every single day of the week going to school and and lots of schools are actually on main roads and i am i am i'm very passionate i used to be a teacher i'm passionate about children's health and it's something i can talk about all day but we don't have that time but you know these are very very important.

Every year in London, by the way, between 8 and 12 children die from asthma every single year. And that really needs to stop. Considering the scale of the issue then, are you hopeful that real change is possible, that we will see it and we will see it soon? A lot of education needs to be had. Hanks, I said to you the public health message. Yes, I am hopeful. I can't give up. And there are lots of people needs to be had. Hence, I said to you the public health message. Yes, I am hopeful. I can't give up. And there are lots of people who agree with me. And especially people who live near the main roads.

They have suffered in recent weeks. But we all saw lockdown, didn't we? I mean, we saw the clean air. So people now know what clean air is. I mean, before, I think when I used to come on radios, people used to struggle to imagine what clean air is. But the question is, though, how do we get there? We all want it. But what sacrifice? Well, that was what I was going to ask you. I mean, to finish, how would you suggest to people out there that don't know how to help the environment? One piece of advice so that we can all help, so that we can all make the environment better.

We need to drive less because emissions, diesel emissions especially, that's one cause of it. And the reason why, and also if I could kindly say to people, if you could refrain from burning wood stoves as well, that would also help. So those two things, driving less and not burning wood stoves and thank you very very much for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure to see you and that brilliant smile on your face Rosamund

thank you so much for the work you've done and congratulations again for featuring on The Power List. Now from The Power List to political struggles let's talk now about Boris Johnson and his government, because it's been criticised, hasn't it, for so few women being at the top table and for being a bit of a toxic boys

club behind the scenes with the recent resignation of Chief Advisor Dominic Cummings. It's led to calls for a female-led power reset at number 10. Now, joining me to discuss this are Katie Perrier, who was chief of staff for Theresa May, and Angie Hunter, who was Tony Blair's longest-serving aide. Good morning to you both. Good morning. Good morning, Katie. Good morning, Angie. Hopefully you can both hear me OK.

Now, of course, you've both been there, you've done it, you've seen the inner workings of government. Katie, I'll start with you. Is it as dysfunctional as it seems from the outside looking in? In short, yes. But of course, everybody says that everybody's time at number 10 is slightly dysfunctional because it is quite an odd place to work. You wouldn't have some of the things that the goings on in top businesses in the country. And so I think that it has been dysfunctional, but there is there is time to rescue it now. you wouldn't have some of the things that the goings on in top businesses in the country. And so I think that it has been dysfunctional, but there is there is time to rescue it now. Boris Johnson needs to focus on the people that he's got around him, building up a top team and getting on with it,

trying to recover from coronavirus and moving forward. So I don't think all hope is lost. Angie, what's your opinion? Is it as bad as it all seems? Oh, I don't believe we have Angie. What a shame. I'll go back to you, Katie. Now, there's been accusations of there being a laddish culture, a macho environment within the government. What was your experience when you worked in Number 10,

particularly as a woman as well? Is it particularly macho? Yes, there have been some moves in the last few years to change that. There's Conservative and Labour, more female MPs than ever before. It's always tough to get more women into Parliament and into the back rooms generally. They are long hours. You don't see your children. In fact, if you say something about being a mother, you're looked down on as if to say, oh, you're just a mum, what do you know? It's almost unprofessional to talk about

children. And yet, we are meant to be in government talking to thousands and thousands of families out there around the issues and the policies that matter to them. So I always felt that very puzzling that they didn't really want to hear from my point of view on a lot of those things. And it doesn't matter whether it's pay discrimination, I was paid less than my predecessor and my successor. And, you know, afterwards, people would contact me, lawyers would contact me and say, you know, you could take them to the cleaners. No, I'm not really interested in that. But it is a point that not only are we asking, we need more women to work behind the scenes, but we need to pay them properly and we need to listen to them when they have views. So the Prime Minister now has Allegra Stratton, who is very capable,

Munira Mirza, who does the policy for Number 10 down the street, very capable too. And of course, Carrie is in the background giving her advice. And so I actually think that this is a moment to reset. The boys have had a chance and they failed at it. So maybe it's time to give the women a chance. Wow. had certainly dealt with some serious issues there when you were working within number 10. I think we have Angie Hunter back now who I was saying was Tony Blair's longest serving aide. Good morning to you Angie. Hello I hope you can hear me now. I can. I can. And we were just talking about the macho laddish culture within government. Was that your experience as well, Angie? No, actually, not so much.

I mean, the one thing was Tony was not a macho sort of guy. I mean, he had a high powered working wife who was earning more than him. And there were actually a lot of senior women in Downing Street in my time. Civil servants like Claire Sumner and Sharon White, who's actually now running John Lewis. A really good team of political advisors and policy people.

And don't forget, you know, we had a massive influx of female MPs when we first came in, which changed the whole face of Parliament. And I suppose of all of us, I mean, Alistair Campbell's the one that's probably got the most macho label and, you know, a bit of a bruiser, the one with the biggest ego. But I don't think you'd find many people he's worked with

that, you know, don't really admire him and respect him and like him. And he certainly never got too big for his boots with us, which I think Dominic Cummings and Lee Cain did. I mean, maybe Nick Timothy did too, Katie. You know, I don't know. But, I mean, I've just been imagining what it's like in there. I mean, it's quite a... The rooms are quite small, quite sort of side by side.

You know, I'm wondering which rooms they've all met in and had these great rows and whoever heard them. And that's Sunday lunch. I mean, that Lee Cain and the prime minister had in the garden. And I'm thinking, where in the garden? Where did they cook this sausage and mash and swede? I mean, all the sort of the lurid details that have been coming out of the dysfunction. And those tweets, you know, a princess emoji and the two squirrels. And I'm thinking, why go to all that length? You know, why not just do the princess emoji? I mean, it's clearly been extremely dysfunctional and it was time for a good clean sweep and um i i just caught the end of what you said there katie and i i totally agree i think allegra is a really really

good appointment she's been around she's an experienced hand i think she was the first person to call the uh a red wall in in um uh in the north of england and said that these seats would be on loan uh she's a proponent of the leveling up agenda um she did vote picked it and i think with manera musa there the head of policy you know two women in the two most powerful positions in downing street and you know i hope you'll carry on listening to carry and and why not you know, I hope you'll carry on listening to Carrie. And why not? You know, she's got experience. She's got expertise in political communications. She knows the Conservative Party. And I'm sure she wants what's best for you.

Yeah. And how important is it then that these women now that have these top positions club together? Does there need to be a coalition formed, a kind of unofficial agreement between these women to ensure that they can do their jobs to the best of their ability? No. I mean, women have always sort of been able to work together. I mean, well, you know, they're going to be, I think, more discreet, perhaps more practical, have less ego and generally speaking, have better manners. Because they're women yeah yeah and i think there'll be a reassertion of sanity and order you know i'm all for it yeah i i wonder what you've made um katie of theresa may being constantly criticized for her reliance on her aids

do you feel as though boris himself is being quite heavily led by his advisers? I think that Boris would agree that maybe that went a little bit too far. And so this has been the moment to reset and pull it back. I think the whole court of Number 10 and Number 11 Downing Street, it's got out of hand. I used to get very cross at Number 10 when I found out that special advisers were on Twitter, giving their views every day. And I'd say to them, why does anyone care what you think? Only your minister should care what you think and only your prime minister should care what you think. We are here to serve. It is our job to serve the prime minister as he or she sees fit. And too many people have too much ego and want to build up their own standing on it. And I think they forget that. And I think that in the last few months, what we've seen is people that care more about their own image

than they do of the prime ministers. And I think that is the biggest letdown of all, really, that he's been badly served in that scenario. And the people that he habits around them now, and hopefully the people he hires in the future, won't come from that kind of, won't have that interest, won't be driven by that. You know, started number 10 someone said to me don't forget to you know get get all the stuff down so you can write your book and i said i have no intention of writing a book because i'm actually got an intention of doing the job and that's a you know 24 hours a day job and that's hard enough in itself uh but i think too many people now go into it with that thought and that mind about how much money i'm going to earn when i leave what i'm going to to do with this, you know, this is going to be the career balance that I

need. And I don't think women think about it so much. I think that a solution, you know, they're fixers, they're problem solvers. They just want to get the job done. What have you made of the way the press has handled Carrie Simons? And they've painted her almost as some kind of Machiavellian villain. I've seen her described as blonde assassin, as Princess Nut-Nut. I mean, is it too simplistic to just say that the media is misogynistic in its approach towards her? I think it's complicated, but I do think that there are some people who do take it too far. If Carrie was applying for a job at number 10 tomorrow in terms of a special advisor, she would get a job because she has that background and that

history. She knows the party well, as Angie said. She knows politics well. She knows many of these politicians. So for her to say, well, now that I am just the mother of your baby, now I've got to shut up, have I? I haven't got a view anymore. So I think she's perfectly entitled. And I would rather the prime minister go home in the evening and discuss the things that were on his mind and talk them out rather than be alone, quite frankly, and not have anybody close to him to be able to talk those out with. You know, other Prime Ministers in the past have relied on their partners. I don't think that they should be any different. What do you think, Angie, and these claims of a petticoat government? I mean, honestly, you know, it just made me laugh out loud that.

It's just so predictable. I mean, it's so outdated. I mean, even the word petticoat is, I mean, who remembers what a petticoat is? I mean, of course, our media are obsessed with prime minister's spouses, you know, especially if they're female.

They always have been. I'm sure Carrie's tough enough to withstand it all. I mean, it's a very odd way to live, you know, and start a family. You know, you're literally living above the shop. Cherie Blair and Sam Cameron and probably Philip May too, Katie, you know, will testify that people just drop into your sitting room,

you know, for urgent talks. There's sort of this unending and enormous pressure. People phoning up at eight o'clock in the evening saying, oh, sorry, forgot to tell you, would you be on the Downing Street steps tomorrow at 8am for a photo call with Boris and the Royal British Legion? And on top of that, Carrie's had literally her partner nearly dying on the job.

And now she's incarcerated again. You know, obviously there are irresponsible protocols in place in relation to COVID in Downing Street. And then she gets called Princess Nut Nuts. You know, I think she's quite within her rights. We want a few changes. And what impact does this have? I can guarantee you one thing.

All these women that we've talked about, there'll be one thing, as Katie said, they'll just want to get out of the limelight and just get back to work. What impact does this have mentally, though, on these women? Both of you have been there in the thick of it. How does it prevent you from doing your job how does it make your job your job harder Katie well you can spend too much of your day firefighting and people that you know want to to do you know get promote themselves that want to have more of their limelight instead of the prime

minister and so that is a distracting force. And if I look back, some of the regrets I have is that I should have just ignored them or sidelined them and just tried to get on with the job. And I used to get my team together at the end of the day and say, you know, I know it feels like you're pushing water up here when you haven't achieved anything, but there are some crazy things we've stopped today and that there is something good to be said in that. But you do get very paranoid in the job at times. You do worry about what everybody thinks and rather than just getting on with it. And I think that one of the only good things we can take from Dominic Cummings' time at number 10, and there are only a few, but one of them is that he has tried to push through an

agenda and Boris needs to not give up on that. He needs to decide what it is he's for, what he wants to do there and get on with it and do it before he runs out of time. And I think that the females around him, they will get their power from him when he puts his trust in them. And it's the same for the cabinet that in the last year kind of ignored the cabinet, ignored Tory backbenchers. If you've seen the papers in the last few days, they're doing lots to re-engage with people because they know that they've just left them out in the cold so when you know people are on your side and those people are being listened to you know it's all power to your elbow so i i think that this is the right way forward now but it's um it's not a tough gig sorry it's a tough gig in there it's not easy by any means. And Angie, just final thoughts on, I suppose this seems like a

reflection that the toxic media reports that these women are experiencing is a reflection of the media industry in itself and how much that lacks in diversity. Well, you know, of course, political journalists love all this drama, you know, I mean, they've always loved it you know they claim it's in the public interest that everyone's interested in backroom drama and gossip and therefore it's legitimate game um so you know i don't blame the journalists particularly they're just you know doing their job um but i just think you know as far as it how does it affect women women in there you know it'll just toughen them up you know it's not going to divert them from from the direction in which they need to go in and as katie said you've got to have direction from the top i mean that's why it really worked

in number 10 for us i mean we had a we had a really you know strong team you know it was the right structure it was the right people in the key jobs all pulling in the same direction as laid down by the boss. I mean, I've actually got an org chart, an old org chart, if the Prime Minister would like to see it. And I'm pretty sure that in our

time there were no weirdos or misfits there. Angie Hunter and Katie Perry, lovely to talk to you this morning. Thank you both. Thank you. Thank you. Now coming up in the programme, Toxic Maxillinity and the third episode of our drama

Spice. Also, last week we discussed a new study which revealed women with allotment plots now outnumber men for the very first time, with almost two thirds of plots in London now occupied by women. Anita Rani spoke to Sonia Hyman in Birmingham, who's had an allotment for 50 years.

I got an allotment because my father, when I was young, gave me a small little plot and I thought, oh, I'm going to do that. And I sort of work away from the end of it I enjoyed it so when I come to England second and go to college uni get married and my husband got a plot you know and I enjoyed it so much you know it was amazing you know to know you can grow your own and see the joy on your face to see what you've grown. That's why I got a plant. And the enjoyment of it, the relaxation as well. You know, it was really lovely. And your first allotment that your dad got you, that was in Jamaica, was it, when you were little?

And so what did you grow when you got your allotment in there in birmingham well go all sorts sweet corns cabbage carrots you know loads of liquor things that grows in england because many of the things that grows in jamaica does not grow here so we try to grow to the adapt to the climate here because many of the thing does not grow in this country that grows in Jamaica so we adapt to what grows in this country. Absolutely, you've got to do that and were you rare as a woman in the allotments? Did you notice

that there were mainly men? I was, well at the time, it was about when we got our plot, it was about two or three women on the plot. And it was very strange because the men used to pass and comment when I was digging and I was planting, you know. They said, oh, you shouldn't be on the plot.

You should be at home looking after your husband and your children. You know what I mean? They let you feel sort of dominant. But that didn't put me off because my first love was gardening. What a wonderful interview. Don't forget, if you miss the live programme, you can catch up by downloading the BBC Sounds app. Search for Woman's Hour and you'll find all of our episodes.

Just click on an episode to listen right away or you can download it for later. You can also subscribe to Woman's Hour so you never miss a program. Now, let's talk about crime writing. Claire McGowan has written a murder mystery called The Push. Claire is with me in the studio. Good morning to you, Claire. Morning.

We'll get to the book in just a second. But first, I want to talk to you about your Twitter profile which says that you are a younger less glamorous Jessica Fletcher I'm assuming you were inspired by Murder She Wrote yes but I don't think I can quite be as glamorous and amazing as Jessica herself so who can or this Jessica also who can aspire to that thank you very much uh shameless plug there before myself where what was it about murder she wrote it did it inspire you to write crime novels um yeah i think i did i used to read a huge amount and watch a huge amount of crime on tv as a kid and i was very i was really more into agatha christie i suppose and i read probably three or four of those a week at one stage when i

was nine or ten so i'm sure that had an influence yeah now let's get to the book it's a novel it's a murder mystery it's set in an antenatal group and I've never been to one I don't have any children and I was reading the book and thought wow what an eclectic mix of human beings thrust together simply because they all decided to you know have relations at a similar time why did you choose that setting in particular? So I've never been to an antenatal group either. I also don't have any children, or yet, I might say. I know that's part of the issue. And I just had heard a lot from my friends about these groups,

and I just thought it was such a fascinating cross-section of society. Some of them seem to get on brilliantly and become lifelong friends, and some of them seem to be quite toxic and very competitive. And some friends of mine had been to a group and they actually only went to one session themselves because their baby came very early in the end. But they mentioned that there was a couple in the group that weren't pregnant. They were using a surrogate in America. And I just thought that was really fascinating that you could even have people who aren't pregnant at the group. And also the massive age disparity so some some of my friends were in groups with women in their 40s who are having their first child

and some were in their 20s and I just thought that was a really fertile ground for for some conflict and drama and there is a lot of drama it's a real page turner um so like you were saying it's a very socially varied group there's a young muslim couple a lesbian couple um there's a couple that haven't got a baby but are adopting from the united states and what i noticed was all these characters are just battling with their own perhaps racist attitudes their unconscious biases and it makes for a storm doesn't it yeah that's a great way to put it it's just um yeah there's a lot of jockeying for power i think there's one particular character monica who i love even though she's absolutely awful i

just really loved writing her she's such a terrible snob and she kind of sets the tone for there's a whole thing about people start competitive baking and bringing treats each week the women obviously and it's very competitive around you know who's made their own does someone buy them how good are they all of this kind of thing now you alluded to it earlier about not having children yet why have you chosen to write this book is it something that's true to life for you because the themes within the book um focus on fertility childbirth motherhood are those themes that you can relate to very much so yeah so I'm 38 now and I feel like I've spent probably the last 10 years thinking about this question on and off am I

going to have children and I've got to this age and I still don't so it weighs weighs on me quite a lot and I talk to my friends a lot about it I have friends who have children sometimes their children are almost in their teens now i have friends who definitely don't want kids and never did i have friends who've struggled to have children friends who've had children and struggled with that um and i find myself just sort of in the middle just still trying to make my mind up really it's a hard decision it's an important life decision but a difficult one to make did this book then help you come to any kind of conclusion that was it a type of therapy almost perhaps i don't think it did unfortunately help me come to any conclusion because i think it's

the kind of issue that the more you think about it and various characters in the book do think about it in a kind of pros and cons way throughout the book um the more you do that you really i think just come up with more cons because i suppose it's not a kind of rational choice a lot of the time people don't always have children. It's something more visceral that makes you do that, I think. So no, still ambivalent, I would say. Now, what I'm very interested in is the fact that you also write what's called women's fiction, but you write it under a different name.

You have an alias. Yeah. Why? So it's actually really common in the book world. One of my writing friends, I know she has at least four different pseudonyms. Four? Yeah. It's actually, there's fewer authors around than you would think.

There's only about 10. You're joking. Not really. You're joking. But the reason for it is two things. So I write women's fiction as evil words. And those books, some of them are more rom-coms. Some of them are more sort of

sad uplifting that kind of they call it uplit sometimes as well um so it's really a branding thing so if you if you'd read one of those and then say you picked up the push you might be a little bit shocked at all the kind of dark secrets and the murder and vice versa and the other reason is that the publishing industry they quite like to kind of relaunch you as if you are a debut and i personally i don't know if readers even notice these things or think about these things is that the publishing industry, they quite like to kind of relaunch you as if you are a debut. And I personally, I don't know if readers even notice these things or think about these things, but it's a definite kind of trend. And there are even some authors I know

who are still writing the same genre who have been relaunched under a different name. Sometimes that's a secret. It's not a secret for me, obviously. I'm terrible at keeping secrets. That's possibly why. But I've always been quite open about being both these people well that's incredible because the reader wouldn't necessarily

know would they if if a new book comes out and it's under a an author that perhaps you've never seen before you wouldn't know it was a an author you've been reading for years no exactly and sometimes they will have actually gone to some lengths so that you don't find out which i find kind of interesting i don't know. It's an interesting thought process. Intrigue builds. I suppose then writing romantic comedies and romantic novels must be quite different to writing a murder mystery with so much intensity. It is.

And I think one thing I noticed, for example, I don't know why this is, but in all of my crime novels, nearly all the men are nearly always really terrible. And I think this book is no exception. There's a lot of terrible women in it too, but there are a lot of terrible men. And obviously in women's fiction, you need to have like a lovely romantic hero and you have to have a good man. So that's one big difference, I suppose. But the other thing is plotting. I think I find it personally more difficult to write the romantic women's fiction because it's simpler in many ways um not always

but a lot of this a lot of the times the plot is simpler and what you need to have is that really strong emotion kind of sadness love hope um so for me it's easier to write about people kind of having dark secrets and being shifty. Lovely to talk to you. And lovely to have you in the studio. It's almost a treat now these days because everything's done via the internet and technology. So lovely to have you with us. Thank you so much. Claire McGowan, author of The Push. Now the term toxic masculinity has become a well used phrase recently, but new research suggests that many people don't actually know what it means.

Nearly 9 million people said they lack knowledge on the subject and nearly 8 million people said they don't know enough about LGBTQ rights. Well, a new gender politics course offered by the University of Glasgow might be able to help you. It covers gender equality, gender history and stereotypes. Now to discuss this with me, Dr Tanya Cheadle, lecturer in gender history at the University of Glasgow, and Jordan Stevens, who is a mental health campaigner and one half of the music group Rizzle Kicks.

Good morning to you both. Good morning. Lovely to have you with us. Now, Tanya, just explain what were you trying to achieve with this course? So our course is called Global History of Sex and Gender, and it's really just another version of the courses that we offer out of the Centre for Gender History at the University of Glasgow. But to this broad, international, intergenerational audience. So at the moment, we have around 3000 learners. It's a four week course, it's free. And we what we're doing is providing learners with both the concepts, and then this sort of rich array of historical case studies to allow people to view history through a gendered lens. So to learn about the whole approach of the history of gender history and the history of sexuality and what it does to history when we use this type of approach

fascinating now jordan i suppose for you you already seem quite well versed in this so perhaps you don't need the course i remember last time you came on woman's hour you actually called yourself a difficult boyfriend or at least you had been at one stage. What did you mean by that and how have you changed? That's great. Yeah, I think the only reason why I'm really asked to comment around these spaces or surrounding the topic of masculinity and what that means is just because, yeah,

I suppose I've gone through a process myself of battling some behavioral patterns that I that weren't conducive to benefit even me or people who I'm intimate with or people close to me and I felt passionately about that at a certain point because I felt that as though my life was depending on it and I'd certainly affected others lives so so I yeah so I just thought I would do something to change that I was I've been in a lucky enough position to do a lot of therapy and and a kind of emotional work and from doing that I've discovered a lot of um I don't know I've discovered a lot of you know rooted problems and and issues that I see kind of I see these things pop up in

the conversation um with men and I see it happen again and again and I and it gets repeated in other relationships and I initially saw a lot of these things pop into the me too conversation way back when I first started talking about this stuff and I suppose that's really why I'm here so yeah at a certain point I did I was definitely a difficult boyfriend I probably am still a bit of a difficult boyfriend to be honest everyone's difficult though at some point every every yeah yeah and I think I'm just I think I it was it's always been important to me to be honest about the fact the fact that I'm not that I have you know trouble with with stuff and I I put it into the context of masculinity because there seem to be common traits between men that was really it you know and and and I think it and it's the disadvantage

of everyone involved and and I feel passionately about people not feeling like that man like I want people to to feel like you know as though they can deal with what life throws at them and I think a lot of people don't and they take that and then the worst outcomes of that are when people project that pain onto others and and I just don't want people to feel that well there is that that common phrase isn't there hurt people hurt people and I commend you for actually taking the time out to do that work Jordan because so many don't and having gone through the journey myself it's very emotionally traumatic to kind of look in the mirror and realize your fault isn't it with that yeah 100 are you talking about like therapy work yeah therapy work looking at past emotional trauma just basically digging very deep

to understand why we do the things we do yeah it's really tough so what do you understand is toxic masculinity what what is it to you, Jordan? Yeah, you know, that term, I think even since we last spoke, I think it keeps taking on a bit of a life of its own. It's becoming, I feel like it's slightly attached to just generally negative ideas. But for me, personally, it was, I suppose it's a word that you can use to describe maybe like macho traits, maybe machoism is a term i've used a little more um

i i honestly struggle a little bit to be honest in terms of being more specific because i've seen in the last year or so it for for one this kind of toxic the toxic masculine traits that i i thought were... I'm not making sense here because I'm not actually saying what the traits are because I'm a little bit worried about saying them. Why am I worried about saying them? Why are you worried about saying them? I think... Do you know what it...

Because I think, like... I think... I don't think they've been... Actually, hold on. I'm just going to say the traits that I felt were an issue. I thought it was the avoidance of pain um the choice to avoid pain in kind of like abusive uh behavioral patterns in terms of might be substance abuse um it could be a number of things I I felt as though that we've been toxic masculinity there would be kind of a sense of entitlement to other people's space.

A God and what else? But these are all these are all traits that you've worked through. And I just yeah, I just want to bring in Dr. Tanya Cheadle here again. And the traits that Jordan is talking about there, Tanya, these start from a very young age, do they not? Is it almost too late by the time we become adults and then we're in relationships? Well, I think, I mean, looking at it with a historical perspective, I think what history teaches us is that the types of

masculine traits behaviors uh that jordan's uh referring to life badly quite badly life this is sort of like a you know emotional repression or it's this sort of manly stoicism if you like that they are they're not innate they're not something that men are born with that they're taught to men through culture and if they can like, that they are they're not innate. They're not something that men are born with. They're taught to men through culture. And if they can be learned, then they can also be unlearned. You know, and so what history gives us is sort of this diverse array of different ways that men have performed their masculinity in the past. So so what we might think of now as toxic masculinity, we know, we can trace where that came from. This whole notion of the stiff upper lip is a legacy of the 19th century, of the very strict gender regime that was in place in that period, which dictated that women were exclusively emotional and intuitive and maternal, that so-called notion of the angel of the house. And conversely, that men had to be self-controlled and rational and stoical. And this was linked to empire and to nationalism and the need for European powers to retain dominance, not just over women, but over

whole other nations. So by revealing, I guess, this divergence of masculinities in the past, it shows how, you know, very different ways of being a man can be performed today. And of course, it is International Men's Day tomorrow, Jordan. Will you be celebrating? Oh, I think we might have lost Jordan there. What a shame. Tanya, I'll just come back to you to end the discussion.

I'm wondering, you know, you said this is a four week course. It's going to take a bit more than that, I imagine, for people to unlearn the gender politics that they've already grown up with. Yes, but it's a start. And I think one of the great things about this course is that it's free and that it's that it's so international so it's available all over the world so you'll go as I say you'll have a different be exploring a different theme each week but also you know it's for the general learner it's through these really fascinating different case studies then what we've been finding is that actually the discussion forums are the real place of learning because there you'll be introduced to these really different perspectives from learners from all over the world who maybe are coming to this topic for the first time. They may identify as LGBTQ plus or may not, but they're sort of teaching each other in the forum. So we've got these really rich conversations going on.

Thank you, Tanya. I was talking there to Dr. Tanya Cheadle, who is a gender history lecturer at the University of Glasgow, and also Jordan Stevens, mental health campaigner and one half of Rizzle Kicks. Now, lots of you have been getting in touch. I've got some of your emails here, particularly about the power list. Kate has emailed in to say Rosamund is so deserving of being on this list. She is a fantastic and tireless campaigner and wonderful human being. She has done so much to raise awareness of this very important issue. My son has asthma and it's horrible. Tim has emailed in to say, I live in a cul-de-sac with a walk through to a large secondary school.

Every morning we witness cars speeding up to and away from the drop off point in the mornings. Many drive four by fours. And in the afternoon, the immediate area is often blocked with vehicles, many with the engines running for a considerable time whilst the drivers sit in their vehicles. Stepping outside at this time, one is confronted with a heavy smell of diesel fumes. Why not use the schools to inform the children about this huge environmental issue? And just maybe they might change their parents' habits. Lynn has said, any polite suggestions as to how to ask drivers who are parked with engines running,

especially in car parks, to turn them off while they text or chat on the phone to keep warm or to keep cold? Parking near schools, I watch push chairs, resting beside car exhaust while mothers talk. I make the request politely. It's not always well received, though. And in regards to our discussion on the female-led reset of power at number 10, Alex has had this to say. The discussion today about the influences operating in Downing Street

featured some breathtaking casual sexism along the lines of women wouldn't behave like this. But if the opposite view had been expressed, you would be rightly up in arms. Bad behaviour, bullying, PT Patel is under investigation as we speak, and personal attacks are not gender attributes. Love the programme, lifelong listener, and my husband is an addict since working from home. And Claire McGowan, the murder mystery author of The Push, Sally has written in to say, what a genius setting for a thriller novel.

So looking forward to reading it. Sally, you will not be disappointed. It is a page turner. And on our gender politics discussion, Linda has said, please tell Jordan he did a good job of demonstrating how hard it is to talk about these things. And that's echoed by Jackie. Jackie says this, please check Jordan is OK.

He was very brave and did not mess up his description at all. These things are very difficult to talk about in such a small amount of time. It was movingly unrehearsed. I hope he didn't sign off because he felt he'd failed to explain himself. The two examples he gave were very powerful. I agree. It was very moving and he was very honest in talking about his own personal battle with toxic masculinity.

Now, do join me tomorrow on Woman's Hour, where I'll be talking to singer-songwriter Nadine Shah about her new album Kitchen Sink. It explores themes of fertility, tradition and identity all told through the stories of various women at different stages of their lives. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.