Woman's Hour - Rosamund Pike, Ketamine, Author Madeline Cash, Winter Olympics

Episode Date: February 20, 2026

Rosamund Pike, the Emmy and Golden Globe winner, is known for standout roles in Saltburn, her Oscar nominated lead in Gone Girl, and Made in Dagenham. Next month she stars on the West End stage, coming back to the role of Jessica Parks, the maverick judge at the heart of the National Theatre’s hit play Inter Alia, also filmed for NT Live screenings. She joins Anita Rani to discuss her role that explores motherhood, masculinity and the complexities of justice. Ketamine has become a worryingly popular recreational drug among young people, and the consequences can be devastating. That's according to a specialist NHS clinic which reports that some teenagers suffer such severe bladder damage from taking it, that some rely on incontinence pads. To discuss the implications, Anita is joined by Dr Alison Downey, Consultant Urologist at Mid Staffs NHS Foundation Trust, who is treating young people with ketamine related bladder problems. They are also joined by Fay Maloney, Director of The Lifeboat Recovery Community Hub, along with Eva, who has stopped using ketamine and is receiving support from the hub. The American writer Madeline Cash has just published her debut novel Lost Lambs — already an instant bestseller — and she’s only 29. She won high praise from Lena Dunham, who has called her ‘a voice like no other’. Lost Lambs follows the Flynn family — parents Bud and Catherine and their three teenage daughters — whose decision to open their marriage plunges the household into chaos. As the Winter Olympics comes to a close, BBC sports reporter Katie Falkingham joins Anita to discuss the standout female athletes and record breaking performances.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani, and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the program, please, anything that will get rid of coughs and colds in one go. We've rolled out the red carpet this morning. Rosamund Pike will be gliding into the studio.

I've just seen her do it, so she does glide. She's going back on stage in the West End reprisings. her role in the brilliant play into Alia. She'll be telling us all about that. Also, debut novel Madeline Cash will be here, whose novel Lost Lambs is an instant bestseller. We'll be looking at the problem of teenagers addicted to ketamine, with some experiencing severe bladder problems that mean they're using incontinence pads. And a roundup of women at the Winter Olympics. Have you been watching? I've been in absolute awe of so much of it. Freestyle skiing, snowboarding, The curling, which I found so soothing.

And the figure skating. Have you been watching? What moments have stood out for you? One of my personal highlights was this joyful moment when Amber Glenn, who is the USA's first openly queer figure skater, she performed to Madonna's Like a Prayer and she got a message of support from Madonna herself. A total surprise.

Have a listen. Amber Glenn, I just watched you skate to my song Like a Prayer and I have to tell you, I was blown away by it. You are. You are an incredible skater. I'm shaking. So strong, so beautiful, so brave. I can't imagine that you would not win.

So I just want to say, good luck. Go get that gold. What an amazing message to get. A long shot for Usmir mortals to relate to that one. But here's a question for all of you. Who or what has given you a boost of support when you've needed it the most? What were you about to do and who came in to give you that pep talk. Let's celebrate the hype women in our lives. 84844 is the text number. You can also

WhatsApp the program on 0300-100-444 or you can email us by going to our website. That text number once again, 84844. But first, Rosamond Pike is an Emmy and Golden Globe winning actor whose performances include a scene stealing role in Saltburn, the film written and directed by Emerald Fennell, the lead in David Finch's Gone Girl, she was nominated for an Oscar for that one, and made in Dagenham, Stephen Woolley's film about the 1968 strike by women at the Ford factory. Other roles in film, TV and podcasts include

the journalist Marie Colville, the scientist Mary Curie, and President Woodrow Wilson's wife, Edith. And she's a producer on the Netflix series Three Body Problem. While next month, she stars on the West End stage, coming back to the role of Jessica Parks, a maverick London Crown Court judge

who's at the heart of the National Theatre's hit play into Alia which has also been filmed for National Theatre's live screenings. It's a role which delves into motherhood, modern masculinity and the complexities of justice. All themes we talk about on Woman's Hour. I am delighted to say, Rosamond, joins me live in the studio. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you, Nita. It's lovely to be here.

It's wonderful to have you here. Before we talk about anything, can we talk about the choice of top that you're ex-examination? suddenly made this morning. Yes, I'm wearing, not a great topic for radio, I suppose. I'm wearing a lovely blue suit by Bella Freud who I think always has a kind of little political message

or a little way of skewing reality to make you think and my jumper says, woman made. Perfect. I watched into Alia and you're extraordinary in it as you are in everything we see you in. And you play Jessica, I mentioned is a Crown Court judge fighting to reform a system that she knows is flawed.

How would you describe her? The play has really spoken to women who've come to see it because they sit in the theatre and they think, oh, that's me, that's my life. Because as well as being about the legal system, it's about how any professional woman is sort of living her life, going about her day until something else sabotages the narrative, whether it's her child who's lost his football boots or, you know, the husband who's calling in sick and suddenly

or somebody's helping with child care can't make it or you know any professional hiccup happens that means your day is derailed she says once to her friend that she feels that she's living her life in the cracks of other people's needs which I think is a line that really spoke to me

and I think we'll speak to a lot of other women too I think it's just that it seems to represent the freneticism, the frenetic nature of, I don't even say freneticism, the frenetic nature of a woman's, of a modern woman's life. Because I think we still feel, however far we've come with feminism,

we still feel grateful, I think, to be able to have careers. And we feel that we have to pretend we don't have other obligations as well, but we have to do, we want to do them. And it's called inter alia, which means among other things. So as you said, it reflects the roles as wife.

She's a wife, she's a mother, she's a feminist, she's a professional, And it's this idea that, well, maybe we were sold to there. I don't know what you think about this idea of having it all. And amongst all those things, she's also having to balance the ego of her husband as well. That's another subtle dynamic in the play. Jessica is a Crown Court judge. Her husband is a silk, as a barrister.

So probably economically, he earns more than her because as a judge you often take a pay cut, but then you get some time back. And obviously, as a judge, she holds more power within the law than he does, which is a subtle dynamic. And she talks about how at one point she confides in the audience and says, my God, I realize I've always been minimizing my achievements. And I think a lot of women who came to see it related to that too. I even had women talk to me privately and say they earn more than their husbands and they hide it.

And they don't want to take their bonus because they're worried that it might, you know, create a awkward dynamic. I mean, it's so interesting that as women we're still uneasy about owning power, I suppose. I think we should hear a clip from the play. Here's Jessica reflecting on her career and motherhood. It's this job. I mean, it takes up so much. It's never balanced. As a mother, I always feel guilty.

I look at the photo of Harry on the mantelpiece. He's holding a ball. He's smiling. But I see the look of slight trepidation in his face. He's never been any good at sport, poor kid. And I try to remind myself of the hours that I have spent with Harry. I don't do that at speed. My beautiful boy, his vulnerability.

God, what is it to be a parent? The worry. They don't tell you about the worry. No, it's interesting because you hear that. What you don't see is the fact that she's frantically laying a table at the same time. At the same time, yeah. I mean, you're doing stuff throughout the hot. It's so much energy.

You never stop. The rule basically is if you talk about it, you don't do it. So if I'm talking about my son, I'm likely doing the. ironing or laying the table or cooking dinner or rearranging the fridge or there's always, which I think is representative of most of our lives anyway. Why did you want to do it this particular role? I felt it was very contemporary. I think it speaks to now. It's about raising boys. And I think in all the discussion about, you know, violence against women and girls,

which is something very close to my heart and, you know, something I'm shocked by the figures and the underreporting and women's fear of going through the justice. system because they're worried that they won't be believed. I think in making a safe space for women to report sexual assaults, we also have to be so conscientious about what kind of men we're raising and how we're talking to boys about this and how not to make them feel marginalized in the conversation and how male role models are so important to young men, which is something that comes up in the play.

I have a big conversation with my husband at one point saying, you know, when did you talk to him about and my husband says, what, sex? And I say no, not about sex, about rejection and heartbreak and vulnerability and, you know, talking about women as people, not body parts and all the subtleties of framing that conversation, which I think hits home to the men who come to see the play as well. Yes, because when I was watching it, I thought in that moment, ooh, if I was a man, I'd think, and I was bringing up a son,

what am I doing? Have I spoken to them? And how are we talking to our boys? How has this character and doing all the research, and I'd like to know about what research you've done because you are playing this Crown Court judge, sort of changed who you are? Well, I think incrementally characters leave a mark on you. And, you know, since playing this woman with judicial authority,

I've suddenly found myself invited to the House of Lords to talk about reform of app design, for instance, you know, that there's a company called, this organisation called Five Rights, which is really campaigning so that the algorithms that drive these apps. At the moment, they're built with addiction kind of hardwired into the way that the apps are designed. And we're saying, you know, children don't stand a chance.

We need reform that means that the apps consciously move away from those design norms. So that's a strange thing that's come adjacent to the play. But I've also made, I would say, friends with people in the judiciary. And I've now, you know, I go in, quite obsessively, I suppose, or conscientiously anyway, into court, every time I go, there's something new that I can glean. Because in the courtroom scenes in the play, I have to conjure the other barristers and the other personnel in the court because I have a husband and son on stage with me, but in the court, I create everything for the audience. So every time I go, I see a gesture or a way of standing or a way of scratching or, you know, some little idiosyncrasy that I can bring on stage.

And the women who do this role, the judges, are the most phenomenal, thoughtful, kind, clever, wise people. And I'm so in awe of them. So what responsibility then, playing that role? And at the times it was scary in rehearsal. And at one point I thought this is too big this role. I can't do it. I never stop. It's an hour and 40 minutes straight through.

I never leave the stage. I don't have a minute to think. And then I went for dinner with these judges. And I thought, you are so brilliant. You're so cool. I have to do this for you guys. Yeah, you look like you're having a lot of fun, though, even though it's a very serious topic.

I do karaoke at one point. You do brilliantly. Karaoke is excellent. I know I was thinking about, you know, if I was just thinking listening to that, I thought if we'd done a Madonna song, would I have got a little call? How good is that clip? So amazing.

Has Shanaya Twain not called you? She did come to the play, you know? She did come to the play, which I was flabbergasted by. My assistant texted me and said, you'll never guess what Shania is in the audience. And my stomach fell out of my body. Because you're singing Shania in the karaoke. I mean, when the first bars of man,

I feel like a woman started up and I thought, oh my goodness, I've got Shania in the audience. I've never felt so kind of unnerved. I mean, you are, I can't even imagine. I can't even imagine. As a parent yourself and you've got two boys, do you, I mean, now you are, you've just said, you know, you're kind of out there advocating yourself about social media.

How would you describe how you deal with it yourself? I mean, this is a topic we talk about a lot on the program, you know, how you can try and protect them from what's outside the door, but actually what's happening within the home. I think that's the thing. You know, you're, as a young child's life, you're always making sure, you know, you're with them, you're escort into the playground, you're watching, who's watching them, you're making sure their walk home from school is safe. and yet inside your home, as soon as you give them a device, the internet knows their curiosities, their desires, their sort of, you know, illicit wanderings,

and it will answer them without any compassion, any wisdom, immediately and without care. And we can't compete with that. We, as parents, we know their minds, the internet kind of knows their darkest desires, and that's very scary. I liken it a bit to having. a sort of cigarette shop inside the house, you know, that, you know, we have to sort of say, OK, Dunning, you know, we know you have to smoke for school, but we'd really rather you

kind of didn't do it, you know, like, because kids have to use online stuff for school. But, you know, we'd really like it if you only smoked silk cut and not Benson and Hedges. And if you do have smoked Benson Hedges, let's make sure it's only for half an hour in the morning and half an hour after school. And it sounds ludicrous, but that is exactly the arguments or the conversations that we're having. You know, we're all sort of bargaining all the time with our children. And I say to them, I say, look, every hour you spend is making money for someone else,

you're losing and that someone else is gaining. But it mostly falls on deaf ears. Yeah, well, you're a mum. I'm mum, exactly. I just wonder what the reaction is to people who come and see the play. What do people, I mean, we can't, obviously, there's a lot that happens

and there's a big twist and we're not going to give anything away. You're just going to have to go and see it to experience it, and I really highly recommend you do because it's brilliant. But what kind of, you know, what kind of conversations do people? come away with? Well, I think there's a big conversation around, you know, the manosphere

and what this thing is that sort of lures our sons online, you know, what modern masculinity looks like, how boys can sort of assert a sort of masculine bravado, you know, in text form that perhaps they wouldn't do in person. You know, you can be so sort of covert with your inclinations or what you say about someone when it's not public. You know, that's what the text message has given us, the ability to be mean, to be derogatory, without it being seen. However, of course, if you get into trouble, it will be seen by everyone.

You know, if you get into trouble, the police will take your phone and they will look through every single message you've ever sent anyone. Yeah. And I always talk to my sons about that, you know, you know, and especially, you know, with all this culture, which we never had, thank God. of like sending nude photos

and and that is just you know, just don't do it ever ever. Yeah, just don't go there. Yeah, and we grew up in a very different world. I want to talk about just your gift for acting and I start, before we came on air, I said how brilliant you are at doing dark comedy and just funny, funny bones.

I mean, we've got to mention saltburn. Wonderful. Yeah, tell me more. I mean, the film focuses on the, A student at Oxford, and most people have watched it, but he becomes fixated with a student, invites him to spend the summer with its eccentric family. In your steen-ceiling role, every role, every scene as Elizabeth Cattern, who's married to Richard E. Grant in the film, what did you make of her and how much fun did you have playing her? Funny enough, you know, were you saying that? It's also a film about raising boys, isn't it? Actually, it's about sort of, you know, belonging and the need of Barry Keogan's character to belong to this world that he's just not part of.

And we live in a very kind of aristocratic world, and it's very alluring because it's so sort of bacchanalian and irresponsible and sort of dangerous but intoxicating. And that's what Emerald let us create, you know, this kind of cavalier attitude to other people that means other people are useful to this family as long as they're interesting. And Elspeth was a sort of monstrous character, really, but very funny because she's very shallow. She trades in social gossip. She makes other people feel small and can make them feel like they're the most brilliant person for a second until she discards them. I mean, I, you know, I love, she's a very real person

and those people exist and it's sort of terrifying. Do you know that? Yeah, I've met people like that, sure. People who can sort of make you feel special and then wither you with the next comment they say. Do you move in those circles, Rosnam? I imagine you move in every circle. I kind of, that's the thing about my job,

is that you sort of get to move in all circles. which is what's so, you know, rich and wonderful about my job. And as an actor, you kind of get a free pass into all these worlds. Always watching, always observing. But as an actor in that really aristocratic world, I'm way too serious about what I do to ever fit into that world because it's not cool in that world to be serious really about anything. Well, you don't have to be.

Well said. Well, another world that you've been moving, and you mentioned that you found yourself in the House of Flauds and you know, I've been advocating. You were just recently, we need to talk about your love for Chinese language and culture and you joined the Prime Minister recently on a trip to Shanghai. Well, there you go. That's another example.

Another example of how this play has sort of led me into unknown waters. Inter alia, thanks to this, you know, the wonderful program that is NT Live, that sort of democratises theatre in the most radical way in that people, you know, who could never afford to come to London, go and buy a theatre ticket, can see these amazing production. in their local cinema. And now our play is going on to 6,000 screens. I had to check that number in China, in mainland China.

So it's phenomenal. And I've just been in China having fascinating discussions with women about, you know, feminism and, you know, this, the whole juggle of wife, mother, partner, friend. And then as part of the trip, I found myself joining Kirstama as he went to talk to art students in Shanghai. So that was very, very surreal. I mean, that's not what my day job usually consists of. What a brilliantly varied world. I've just got to say something about you because your tenacity,

I'm in huge admiration of it. Because you were turned down by every drama school. True. But you didn't give up on your dream of acting. No. I mean, you did happen to just go to Oxford as well, which puts you in a different league to most of us. But continued and didn't give up.

And then, you know, we're going to hear about women in the Olympics and how inspiring some of their stories are later. And what would you say about that, about the kind of need to just keep going? It's funny, when I listen to sports people talk, there are a lot of crossovers with what I do because there's an element of it, although we work in collaboration with people,

there's an element of acting and sport that is very lonely because it's ultimately you putting yourself on the line. You know, of course we have a sort of massive support structure and other actors. But yeah, being rejected at 19 is a, was a big thing, but it was a sort of, it was also a wake-up call to, do you have to really examine whether this is really what you are?

And I thought, okay, you're not going to let me do this, but this is still what I am in my core. I am an actress, and I've always been an actress ever since I was a little girl. That's what my passion is. And I'm going to find another way. And I think, of course, you know, I had the privilege of going to a great university and, you know, that is obviously unusual, but rejection is still hard. Yeah, of course.

I'm just thinking about another great actress in a great film, Julia Roberts and Pretty Woman, to all those drama schools, big mistake. Oh, big mistake. There you go. You got the uphand. In Taralia, it's brilliant. Thank you so much. Thank you very much for having me on.

Absolutely pleasure. It's on at the Windham's Theatre from the 19th of March the 20th of June. And we start rehearsing Monday. Good luck. How are you feeling about that? It's wonderful to revisit it because my knowledge of hers deepened. And actually, sadly, I've lost the son who did the run at the National, but I have a new son.

So I think I will be a different parent to this new boy. You have to change. You know, it'll be a, we will be different parents to this version of Harry. Well, we look forward to seeing it. Thank you, Rosamim. Thanks so much. Thanks. Now, we're very excited to say,

the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back on Sunday for a new series. Here to give you practical advice and tips that will help you meet the challenge that life throws your way. It's your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle and everything in between. Sunday's episode tackles a subject that can make women squirm a self-promotion. Whether you're pitching for work, looking for a new job, asking for a raise, or just trying to update your online bio. We'll help you make it a bit easier for you. Nula is joined by neurologist Gina Rippen, author of the gendered brain, who will help her understand why promoting ourselves can sometimes feel threatening alongside Stephanie Sword Williams, a writer and motivational speaker who,

who says, from home to work, the way we think about discussing our achievements is all wrong. Even if you think about performance review documents that we have at work, they often tell you to write down three things you've done that year that you're proud of. If I've only done three things that year, we've got a problem, right? And I had a performance review where they'd asked for three things and I took in 25 things. And it was really important for me not only to do that in that moment, but I speak very openly about it of why do we reduce ourselves to these boxes or these forms, when actually what we're trying to communicate is the value and the contributions

that we bring. And I remind people, if you work hard, you will go far if you tell the story. And it's that extra bit that I don't think we talk enough about. That's Woman's Hour Guide to Life on Self Promotion Without the Cringe. Find it in the Woman's Hour feed on BBC Sounds on Sunday. 84844. A message just come in. Rosamond, you were spell-bindingly brilliant, such a breathtaking play as a mother of three grown young adults. only one gentle son I saw myself in so many moments certainly sparked a lively conversation with two men next to me who were questioning the ending.

This should be compulsory watching for fathers out there. Keep your thoughts coming in. Now, Ketamon, a powerful horse tranquilizer and anaesthetic has become an increasingly popular recreational drug of choice for young people, but the consequences can be devastating. According to a specialist NHS clinic treating teenagers with complications from the drug, some are experiencing such severe bladder problems that they're relying on incontinence pads

or even buckets beside the bed at night. Well, to discuss the implications, I'm joined by Dr Alison Downey, who's a consultant urologist at Midstaff's NHS Foundation Trust, who's also seeing young people with bladder issues from ketamine use. And I'm also joined by Faye Maloney, who's director of the Lifeboat Recovery Community Hub, which supports people with alcohol and drug addiction, and alongside her, Eva, who is no longer taking ketamine

and is using the support for hub. Welcome, the hub for support. Welcome to all of you. Alison, I'm going to come to you first. Can you start by explaining what ketamine is exactly? It's a very good drug. It is a horse tranquilizer, but we use it in medicine for usually pain relief,

acute pain relief in A&E sometimes. It can be used as an anaesthetic drug, and there's some use for it in chronic pain and some psychiatric illnesses in America. And it's really important to say that when it's used under medical supervision by a doctor, it is a perfectly safe drug. There are no issues with it. It's very much when it's used recreationally that you get problems. Okay. And what are the problems and how big an issue are ketamine-related problems in young people at the moment?

It's a very big issue nationally. We've noticed a significant increase over the past four to five years. What it does is it shrinks the bladder down. So where a normal bladder would hold about 400, 500 mills. A lot of my patients have bladders that are only holding 50 to 60 mils. So that means you're passing urine every 15 to 20 minutes. The bladder wall becomes very thick, so you get this very strong urge that you have to pass urine, and that can cause incontinence, particularly in young women, but have lots of male patients who've got incontinence as well. Because it damages the lining of the bladder, whenever you do pass urine,

you often get blood in the urine, and which can look very alarming. And if it's used progressively, it can cause problems with blockages to your kidneys, which can need drainage tubes. And it also affects other things in the body, too. you think places like the liver, the heart and the back passage. And how old are the people coming in to see you? Can you give us an idea? They're very young.

Very young. So most of my patients are in their early 20s. And a lot of them, they often started using a few years before that. So we've got patients who started using when they were 12 or 13, which is just frightening. But most of them are young, young patients. I'm going to bring Eva and Faye in here. Eva, I'm going to start with you. Thank you so much, by the way, for.

coming along to talk to us. And I think it's really important to hear your story. Can you tell us why and when you started taking ketam in? Yeah, so I started taking ket when I'd left school about 15, about 16, sorry, 17. And it starts just how it usually would just when you had your friends, just, you know, like you just had a party, something like that. but then over time it becomes progressively

where it's where you know it's not just a Saturday anymore, it's a Saturday Sunday How common was it amongst your friends? It was not that common but like after a while

I'd always find it was me wanting to them to do it with me every weekend and they'd be like no I don't want to and like I was always different to them what was it about it? I think from a young age, from the age of about 11,

I noticed that I couldn't handle certain emotions and how in your head would work. And I think that drug, because it's such like a dissociative drug, it just takes you away from all that noise in your head. head, like, and it does a perfect job of it. And that's why it got so bad for me, because the things of what my head would tell me and the way it would make me feel, like I could just take that and I wouldn't feel any of it. How bad did it get? It got really, really, really bad for me. I put off going to the hospital for a good while because

I didn't want to hear what damage had actually done to myself. Like I knew it was bad because of the way I was. I was in agony every day. You know, my mom helping me out of bed. I couldn't even wash myself. Like, it was awful. And eventually I did go to the urologist where they took me, my bladder was 30 mil.

My kidneys were failing. My livers weren't functioning properly. I would have been basically dead before the end of the year. They said if it didn't, you know, stop when I did. But even hearing that information from the urologist didn't make me stop. Like, I was in the depths of addiction at that point and not uncle would make me stop. So to most people hearing that information,

you'd want to, you know, get well and do everything you can to, like, get healthy, but with me, it was just, no. I just once. I was fine with the force of death. I accepted it because I couldn't get out with the situation that I was in. It was too much. Like the pain was too much. Like I was self-medicating myself with like more cats

because that was the only thing that took it away for me. And it was crazy. Like it was crazy to me mom to hear that because she was like, how are you continuing to do the thing that's killing her? But I couldn't actually stop it because it was the only thing that was actually helping me. But in the end, of like the cat my addiction it was coming to a point where like the cat wouldn't even take the pain away for me anymore because it was that extreme and intense i'm going to bring fay in who's sitting next to you who hello fay um i mean

you are seeing younger and younger people in your hub and tell us you know sort of reflect on what we've just heard from eva there and how young are the people coming through your doors and you kind of shed some more light on just how serious the problem is. Okay, so at the moment we have started Ketterman support groups for age 12 to 17 year olds because we found that the groups that we run, we want two face-to-face meetings weekly and then we have a Zoom online group and we have two family support groups face-to-face and online and we were getting months contacting us daily asking could they're 14, 15, 16-year-olds attend our groups.

And it didn't deem appropriate to be honest. So we found that we needed to start a separate group. It's not just the children, it's the parents. The devastation that this drug creates, you know, the children are in so much pain and they see no other way out other than to use more of this drug. The youngest one that we've had in is 13, but we work really, very closely with this drug services locally

and we know that the youngest person to be took to the service was 9. the problem we've got, I believe, with this drug also is that it's been sold by children. So there's no drug dealer broken up, maintaining up selling drugs to kids. The drug dealers agree with the younger boys, and then the younger boys who are not realizing what they're doing and understanding the severity are giving it to the younger again. So this drug is not scary to these young people. They're not scared by it. There's no stigma attached.

It's not a daisy drug. It's quite cool to walk around with a bag of Kenny, as they call it. And they don't understand the dangers of it until they're suffering from the pain. And by that time, that's normally when it's too late. And then what we've got is the parents are not able to see the dangers because it wears off after half an hour, 45 minutes. They're taking it at play times in schools. They're taking it and coming in and look perfectly normal.

It's really cheap, so really accessible. So they're getting away with it for a long time. until it's too late. Alison, let me bring you back in. When is too late? How much or how often do people need to be using it before problems begin? It's really difficult to say because everyone's very different. So, I mean, you could be using it for years and not have problems and then suddenly get problems.

You could use it for a couple of weeks and then get problems. So there is no safe level other than under medical supervision, obviously. but whenever it's too late is when a bladder is really, really shrunken, the pressure is very high or the kidneys have blocked off. But that's quite a late time. So there is a fair amount of patients that if they stop using, their bladders will recover and they don't need any intervention from me, which is the position I'd like to be in.

So for a lot of my patients, if they stop using, their bladders can nearly get back to normal or just need some medication or some minimally invasive treatment rather than surgery. I mean, I started this item by talking about some teenagers needing incontinence pads. And is that the reality for some? Yeah, yeah. A lot of my patients are using incontinence pads and just not being able to go to work because I can't hold down jobs.

If you need to go to the toilet every 15 minutes, it's very difficult to have a job and look after a family. But yes, incontinence is a big issue. And Eva said there, and I think if you could shed some light on this, So the vicious cycle of ketamine, that actually the only thing that relieves it is to use it. So how does that happen? It's, it's, the damage can be extreme in the sense that the lining of the bladder can become so inflamed and ulcerated that it's very painful.

There also seems to be an increasing growth of pain fibres in the bladder, in patients who use it a long time, which contributes to the pain. And the other side is it affects the blood supply to the small vessels in the bladder. So you sort of get like, I suppose, a bit like a minute. heart attack, if you like, with your bladder. Every time you pass urine, it's incredibly painful. And Ketmine is a fantastic painkiller. Any painkillers that we can try and give just aren't as good as it.

A lot of my patients, the issue is not just the addiction. It's the only thing that helps with the pain is Ketman. And it's a really, really difficult cycle to get out of. Yeah. Eva, you've been drug-free for over nine months. Well done. Really well done. You've said that Lifeboat, the Lifeboat Community Hub has been instrumental.

So how did they help you? It's impacted my life in such a way because for so long I tried to get clean and I just could never do it. Like I even went to Reab and I came out and had relapsed after like two weeks. Like just not un could make me start. And then I managed to get a few weeks and a few weeks clean by going meetings in the local area. but then I found a lifeboat because my mum was like,

oh, good life, a good lifeboat, and I did, ends up going. And since then, like, I've never looked back because you don't realize how important connection is.

Like, connection's been massive for me, like connecting with other people who were just like me, is what's kept me well. It's like, although, like, it's been over nine months since I picked the drug up. I feel like your family can still be on edge at times,

you know, if you're ever having a bad day or like, you know, you're upset. They can still be on edge. Like, oh, is she going to, is she going to, you know, go back to that? But with the life, but like, if you ever having a bad day, you can just come in. Like, everyone also, like, just put their arms around your support. Yeah, uplift you when you need it. And it's just an amazing space to be in.

How do you do it, Faye? What support do you provide? We started the first. first ketamine groups in Liverpool, which I saw a real need for a couple of years, I could see in the recovery community the problem was getting, we were getting more younger people

through the fellowship meetings, but what it was as the drug of choice was not really, we don't hear a lot in the fellowship meetings about Ketamins, so they were walking back out the doors, so I could see in them communities that there was something missing. So when I created the hub, I just

started the Katteman Support Group, which is not a fellowship meeting, where it was just safe space to give these young people because they're talking about things that other people are not talking about. They need comfortable chairs. They need to be by the toilet. They need to be able to talk about incontinence pads.

The incontinence pads are in the toilets. You don't get that in an AA or a CIA or a meeting space. So it was just literally about creating a safe space where they felt comfortable where there was no stigma and there was no shame. And it grew dramatically altogether.

I'd say we probably got about 150 200 Ketterman users who have connected with us, whether it be face-to-face hybrid or on Zoom. We have ladies coming on from New York, Brooklyn, Bali. Yeah, you're doing really great work. Eva, how are you doing now? I'm doing amazing now. It's quite, with the drug of choice with Kett,

when you're in such a state that I'm doing. was at the end of the addiction. You don't even know if you're going to make it through the next day because you're so ill. So to think that, you know, we're over nine months. It's just absolutely mad to me. We're very happy for you. I am speaking on behalf of everyone listening as well.

It is good. Keep going. You've got, you know, we're sending support your way through the screen up to Liverpool. And I just say what Eva does now. Eva volunteers. The like both, Eva helps other young people. She shares experience.

She goes into students and carries away. And she's doing absolutely fantastic. Yeah, well done. Well done, Eva. Alison, I think it's really important, finally, that we should, you know, what should parents or carers look out for? What are the early warning signs?

I think the earliest sign is going to the toilet more often than normal. So if you suddenly start to notice that your child is just, you know, even if it's every half an hour instead of every hour, just that go into the toilet very often. having to really rush to the toilet, any signs of blood in the way, just really think this could be kept. I think the key here is awareness.

Exactly as Faye and Eva said, it's really cheap, it's really accessible. And there's this perception that it's safe because there's no hangover in it only lasts a little while. It's just not. And our young people really need to know how dangerous this drug is. Really important. Thank you so much, Alison. Thank you to Faye. And thanks to you as well, Eva.

Thanks all of you. Can I just say one last thing? Yes, of course. message to parents from me or caregivers. I come from a good family. I had a good child. You don't always have to be like a feral child, if you want to say, to fall into something like this.

Like the devastation this causes to families is like unreal. So it's very important that you can sit down with the kids and have open conversations and speak about the dangers of what this brings. Because if I can just sit here today and spread my message, of my story and it changed one person's life and helps other families, and that's what it's all about. So, yeah. Brilliantly said. Thank you, Eva. Thank you. And I have to say, if you have been affected by issues in this discussion,

there is a range of organisations and websites that can offer you advice and support. You can find them on the BBC's Action Line website. Once again, Alison Faye and Eva, thank you very much. 84844. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid.

I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Now, my next guest is the American writer Madeline Cash,

whose debut novel Lost Lambs has just been published and is already an instant bestseller. She's only 29. Not only that, Lena Dunham, no less, has praised her as having a voice like no other. It's a story of the Flynn family, parents, Bud and Catherine, and their three teenage daughters, the decision to open their marriage sends the household into chaos.

The eldest daughter is dating an ex-soldier known as War Crimes, Wes. One is embroiled in an online, radicalization plots and the youngest has become intensely suspicious of a local billionaire. Welcome to Women's Hour, Madeline. Thank you so much for having me. Congratulations. Bestseller in the first week here in the UK. How does that feel?

How are you feeling right now? Like, I'm really trying to suppress a panic attack. I'm very grateful and so excited and constantly terrified. This was very unprecedented, I'm told. There are entire substack dedicated to speculation that I'm in. industry plant I've heard. Are you? I'm not. I'm not. I've a single mother in Los Angeles. She was a nurse.

Yes. So unless I wanted to go into like a low level medical industry, I don't think I could. Well, we're going to find out a little bit more about you. But first of all, tell us about the novel. Well, Lost Lambs is a family saga. It takes place in an unnamed town, presumably an American suburb, about two parents. But in Catherine, who like you said, are in the throes of an open marriage. that is going poorly. And their three daughters who are each respectively rebelling. Again, like you said,

the youngest of which has sort of gotten hip to this conspiracy theory with the local billionaires in the town and no one believes her. Such a brilliant plot. Thank you. What was the process of thinking up this story? I mapped it out thoroughly.

Kind of like a serial killer mapping. You know, like I was drawing lines. On a wall? Yeah, physically. and making character charts and a lot of world building was involved because the book, it doesn't have any proper nouns in it. It is a complete work of fiction. So I just very thoroughly mapped everything out. Any of it inspired by your own family? While I tried to avoid any direct parallels and not fall into like in sort of an auto-fictional

bubble, I'm sure that there are composites from my life. I have a pretty unconventional family and this is an unconventional family. Yeah, tell us more. So you said you grew up, single mom. Single mom, she was a hospice nurse at a convent. Very good woman. And now she is retired and gives tours of Renaissance art in Los Angeles. We're very close.

She's lovely. Shout out, Susan. Shout out, Susan. We always like to shout out moms and woman's hour. You say in the book, Madeline, marriage is just an institution that informs the tax code. would you say your anti-marriage? I don't know.

That does sound so cynical. I can't be the arbiter of marriage because I'm 29 and I'm not married. But I think with the book I really wanted to examine these systems we have in place and then maybe offer some nuanced alternatives to them. In the book, the family starts out with this sort of typical American dream white picket fence family. and they are miserable. And without any spoilers, where they end up, is probably unlike anything they imagined.

It is not a cookie cutter life, but they are a lot happier. Why was it, or was it important for you, that it was the woman who wanted to open up the marriage? I like that you're getting comfortable, by the way. Just crossed her legs. I fully approve. I'm a leg crosser as well. Go on.

What was it important? Well, I think that these, there are often like archetypes for female characters, the loving mother or the rebellious teen or the, you know, good partner or the listless housewife. And I kind of wanted to take these archetypes and then turn them on their head. And while Catherine suggests the open marriage, she also is the one to regret it. And I, yeah, I just wanted to give these characters some agency, especially the women, to be flawed and imperfect and complex without judgment.

and the daughters there's Bud and Catherine who are the couple and then they've got three girls who are 12, 15 and 17 tell me the inspiration for those three and were you inspired by other books?

Definitely. I had to be, I don't have any sisters myself. The other sister novels are work that comes to mind Virgin suicides. Marilynne Robinson's housekeeping has a lovely sister dynamic

even Flea bag I think If I think of some more modern media has a great complex sister relationship. And the three girls, I think, again, were probably composites from my own adolescence, various forms of rebellion. And kind of the helplessness of being a teenage girl when all you want is freedom and you are the least free. Yeah. Like you say, you haven't got sisters yourself. Are these the sisters that you would imagine having?

I think so, definitely. Let's talk about the rebellious phase because they are all daughters doing just that. How did you rebel? Well, when I was quite young, reading was actually a bit of a rebellion. For a little while, while my father was in my life, he thought that my excessive reading was a bit strange or that I was ill-socialized. And I remember once I was tucked away reading and he plucked the book from my hand and put it high up on a shelf. So I would go play outside. And I snuck in the night back and got, and I took my book back.

What was the book? Can you remember? I actually do remember. It was Dave Eggers, a heartbreaking work of staggering genius, which is very funny to take away. So when you say excessive reading, just how much were you reading? I was reading a lot and probably a bit above my age level. I remember reading John Updike when I was around 11 and I had no perception of marriage. And yeah, I think that it kind of freaked him out. But then when I got older, I rebelled normally, you know, sneaking out of windows and whatnot. Where did that love of reading come from?

Hmm, that's an interesting question. I don't know. I think that I always have loved storytelling. My mom brought reading into my life really young. She brought me the little prince that was very pivotal and important to me. And, I mean, it's a bit of a cliche to say you're only 29. But how has it felt having this level of success already? It has exceeded any expectation.

When I sold the book, I was copyrighting, living in a very small apartment in New York, and everything that has happened has been a delight and a surprise. People keep calling me this literary it girl figure, which, well... How do you feel about that? I've read some of that. I think it is a little bit reductive because it kind of qualifies a woman's fame in this way. I understand it just means that it's like the writer du jour, but I don't know. You don't hear like literary it boy Thomas Pinchin. So true. You know what I mean?

But we can all name lots of other literary it girls who kind of have them and there's so much expectation put on them then. Yeah, I know it is a bit of pressure. We've got to talk about the writing process. You were working as a copywriter. So when were you writing the book? nights, weekends, early in the morning, and really any scrap of time I could. Did you get some good advice on writing? Occasionally, a teacher told me to try and work a job that didn't pull from any kind of creative impulse, which I would recommend,

so that you can kind of save all of that for your work. And I didn't necessarily do that. Being a copywriter does take creativity, but I had to write a lot of puns and do a lot of work. wordplay, which, as you'll see, works its way into the book. Yeah, it's extraordinary and very funny. How have you celebrated your success? Well, the first check I got,

I paid my mom back on a loan that she sent me to college with, she sent me to Sarah Lawrence. And by the skin of our teeth, we got me into that school. It's quite expensive to go to college in America. And I paid her back. And I bought myself a pair of shoes. Madeline, that's two. of the most perfect, that's the perfect answer. Paid your mum back and bought shoes. What were the shoes?

Oh, I went to Paris with my partner and I bought a pair of corrals in the corals store. This is exquisite. Yes. That's exactly what you should do. Not just bought shoes. Went to Paris to buy the shoes. Yeah. What do you hope women are going to take away from this book? I hope that they see a little bit of themselves and these characters and are, um, feel understood and like, they are galvanized to change their situations if they dislike them. Oh, I like that. Just throw that in at the end. Also, you're going to be very entertained. Madeline, thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. And you've moved to London, so welcome. Thank you. You're going to have a great time. And Madeline's novel, Lost Lambs, is out now. I think, Ash, thank you. Thank you for having me. Absolute pleasure.

Come back when the next one's out. I will. Good. So we got it there. She said it now. She can't take it back. Now, as the Winter Olympics comes to an end, this weekend. We wanted to take a look

at the female athletes who've stood out in the snow, the ice and even mid air, from breathtaking figure skating routines to nail-biting ski jumps and powerhouse performances on the slopes. There's been some extraordinary performances and some record-breaking moments. It's definitely had me shouting at the telly and it's not over yet.

And BBC sports reporter Katie Falkenum joined me earlier from Italy and I asked her what we've seen this week. It's been another incredible week here at the Winter Olympics and we've seen some astounding performances. I think the one it's that's best to reflect on it. It's just last night.

Zoe Atkin in the women's half-pipe three-ski final. She qualified top with an astounding score in the 90s. She's looking in really good form for the final on Saturday. She's current Half-Pipe World Champion. She's a two-time ex-games gold medalist. So we've got some really high hoax there for another medal on Saturday night. That's going to be something to look forward to. So who have been the standout women for you for these games?

It's hard to specify one, but I think I'm actually going to go for Kirstie Mew. She might not have. have won a medal. She got two fourth places, but to bounce back from her disappointment in that first final where she missed out, I'd just 0.4 of a point. To then come back and go so close to a medal again. She's only young. She's only in her early 20s. The resilience that she showed at her second Olympic games to do that, I think, is amazing. And she's definitely a star in the future if she isn't one already. One to watch. It would be a great time to talk about 19-year-old Olympic snowboarder Mia Brooks. We spoke to her mum actually on Woman's Hour earlier this month.

when Mia came forth in the big air final. But she didn't shy away from giving it her all, did she? She didn't. You know what? Mia came into these games with an astounding amount of pressure on her shoulders. She was perhaps Great Britain's best chance for a gold medal alongside Matt Weston. And even though she didn't get that, she gave her a role. She tried a trick that had never been seen before in competition.

And to have the bravery to do that on this stage is phenomenal. She is someone who kind of transcends her sport, in snowboarding she is a huge name, even if she isn't up to the general population. She's massive in snowboarding. She's called a purest dream. She's a real snowboarder snowboarder. And no matter what happens in the future,

whether she comes back for another Olympics or not, I don't know, but she's going to be a star of her sport for many years to come and how great is it that? She's British. Yes, absolutely. I love the mutual respect between the snowboarders and the skiers. Like they're all the community, you can really sense it. And it's still so young, only 19.

They're all so young. Absolutely. They're all great friends. Yes, you can see. Let's talk about another brilliant young star, Eileen Gou. She's known as the Snow Princess. She was asked about missing out on a gold medal, but she stood her ground saying she's the most decorated female Olympic freestyle skier in history. I'm sort of transfixed by this young woman.

Tell us all about her. Yeah, she's pretty remarkable. So she switched allegiance from the United States to China just before the Beijing Games in order to compete for her mother's homeland. And in China in particular, she is a huge star, like massive. She's on billboards everywhere. She's got all these incredible endorsements with all these brands like Red Bull, Tiffany and Co. You know, huge global brands.

And yet she still comes back to the Olympics where, you know, her sport is perhaps her focus for those four years in between games. But on the Olympics, she gives it her role. And even though she hasn't won gold yet, she's in the half-pipe final on Saturday night. She still sees those silver as victories. And actually, you know, I'm in Lavinio up in the mountains where Eileen is competing and there is no athlete up here who has more fans and attendance. They follow her everywhere. The noise is phenomenal when she competes.

And actually, you know what, despite being this massive star, this massive global star, she has time for everyone. She goes over and sees her fans after her runs. She speaks to every media outlook. And, you know, she's just polite. But she just is happy to talk to anyone. Yeah, incredible. Elizabeth. Alicia Liu, who gave up skating, but came back and went on to win gold. Tell us about her.

Yeah, this was another great win last night for her. She beat a standout field in the women's final. She's the first American Olympic champion since 2002. But she was playing catch-up through the program. But she came back and she got that gold medal. And she'd quit age of just 16 after missing out on a medal. But to show such resilience. at that young age to come back onto this stage.

She's still only 20 to win gold. I think that's remarkable. I mean, there's so many inspiring women in these games. Another one, Alana Myers-Taylor, who at 41, her mother, just added another Olympic goal to her collection of medals for Bob Slay. Yeah, she's finally got that gold after five attempts of competing at the Olympics. She's an extraordinary woman. She's 41, but she's still been going.

She's got two young kids at home. both her kids are deaf and the oldest one has Down syndrome so she has huge challenges at home but to still be able to commit to her sport to do the training that's required and then come out and win Olympic gold I mean that's one of the most inspiring stories

of the games for me isn't it and her children were there and she's one of several women who we've seen celebrating alongside their children absolutely yeah there's plenty of parents out here it just shows you know I think there's always been this long held belief hasn't been that

once you have children, that's your athletic career over. But I think that's old news now. That's not the case. It's brilliant to see the children, you know, on the start lines, on the sidelines, sorry, what their mothers compete and what better role models in life. Absolutely. There's also been some dramatic heartbreaking scenes too at the games.

I mean, we have mentioned on women, Sarah, about Lindsay Vaughn, who's now back in the States recovering from her injuries. Yeah, Lindsay Vaughn came into these games. I think we were all hoping for that fairy tale finish for her. She did her ACL injury, I think it was nine days before the game started. So that looked as if, you know, her games were over before they'd even started. But she strapped it up. She battled through.

And she looked in phenomenal form in training, even with a broken knee effectively. But yeah, that crash, just 13 seconds into her downhill run. I think every person who was watching that had their heart in their mouth. And unfortunately, it was very bad news. She's got a horrendous broken leg. I think it's a lot more serious than we actually think. She's had four operations today, I think, so far, with more in the pipeline.

So obviously we wish her well. And whether we see her again on Olympic stage, I don't think we will, but what an athlete. Yeah, absolutely. And as you say, we do wish her well. So what about this weekend? What have we got to look forward to? It's the final weekend of the games.

I can't believe we're here already. As I've mentioned, we have Zoe Atkin in the Half Pike Final on Saturday night. We also have the curling finals. it's going to be a brilliant end to the games and then obviously the closing ceremony on Sunday night so what a way to look back on the games and celebrate what has been a phenomenal game for Great Britain. Three goal medals, you know, Charlotte Banks on top as well,

finally getting her a long way to a gold medal and yeah, what a brilliant game it's been. Lots to look forward to there. That was the BBC Sport reporter Katie Falkingham and you can watch and hear all the action and the closing ceremony this week. weekend on the BBC. We started with that brilliant message to Amber Glenn, the figure skater from Madonna and I asked you to tell me about your hype women who have boosted you when you've

needed the support. I'm going to read out some of your messages. My name is Kyle. I'm undertaking a doctorate in health psychology. Whenever I feel like flowing in the towel, there have been many, many times. My mum is always there waiting in the wings to give me a hug, a pep talk and to quieten the imposter syndrome. Big love to my number one cheerleader, Jill, aka Mum. And this one is is a brilliant one for all of us. I've already written it down. Years ago, when I was setting up a human rights education charity called Journey to Justice, I told my stepmom, I was full of self-doubt, and she said, yes, but your idea is greater than your self-dipped. And that first year, especially, I thought of what she said almost every day. Each time I repeat it to a woman friend, they say,

let me write it down, and I have written it down, and now I've shared it with all of you. I'm going to repeat it all my time. Yes, but your idea is greater than yourself. self-doubt. Join me tomorrow for weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Parenting a young child today means navigating a whirlwind of advice, opinions and relentless information. Tell me about it, Katie, but the good news is CBB's parenting download is here to take the edge off. Join me, Katie Thistleton, Radio One presenter and new mum. And me, Governor B, Mobo Award-winning rapper and Dad of Two, as we discover and unpack what

It really means to be a parent. From the art of negotiation to tips on dealing with parental anxiety. Each episode, we're joined by well-known parents and trusted professionals to share their own experiences. People say you never know until you have your own, but no one ever really gets into what that means. And it's very true. Someone, when I was on my first walk with him alone in the pram, someone went, Professor Green, went, yeah, you went, congratulations, went, cheers. And he went, welcome to the truth club.

I went, what do you mean? You'll find out soon enough. And to provide useful tools and advice to tackle the daily challenges, that come with parenting, offering honest conversations and expert insight that can really help. The biggest thing that I've noticed since I became a negotiator is we don't listen. We're really good at pretending we listen and we do this, don't we? So our young people in our life, especially are talking away. You've asked them a question.

They're answering the question and you're like this. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh-mm. Because you're not really interested because you're already thinking about what's next. We've learned so much already. So whether you're a first-time parent, you've got multiple kids. kids, you're a carer or a grandparent, this podcast is for you. Search for CBB's Parents in Download with me, Katie Thistleton.

And me, Governor B. Listen now on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts.