Woman's Hour - Rose Ayling-Ellis in As You Like It, Whistleblower: Helen Evans, Children with Mothers in Prison

Episode Date: December 9, 2022

The Canadian Grammy winning singer Celine Dion, who had a mega hit with the track 'My Heart Will Go On', has revealed her diagnosis of Stiff Person Syndrome, an incurable, rare neurological disorder that causes muscle rigidity and episodes of severe spasms. In an emotional video, shared with her 5.2 million followers on instagram she announced that the condition will leave her unable to play planned shows in Europe. Music journalist Lisa Verrico discusses what this will mean for her and her career.You may remember the video that went viral in 2021 of Rose Ayling-Ellis and her Strictly Come Dancing partner Giovanni dancing in complete silence during their Couple’s Choice dance. Rose is deaf and uses British Sign Language to help her communicate. They wanted to use their dance to show what it is like for the deaf community on a daily basis. She went on to win the show and won a BAFTA after the dance was voted by the public as the Must-See TV Moment that year. Now she’s back on stage in Soho Place theatre’s production of Shakespeare’s romantic comedy As You Like It. She joins Anita Rani to talk about her West End debut in the show and the work she’s doing to make theatre more accessible for deaf audiences.A new documentary about whistleblowers has just been released. 'When We Speak' follows the stories of three women, Helen Evans a former Oxfam employee who spoke out about sexual exploitation and abuse at Oxfam GB, British intelligence employee Katharine Gun who leaked a memo from GCHQ in the run up to the Iraq war and Rose McGowan who spoke out about sexual abuse in Hollywood. The documentary shares the motivations, experiences and fallout of each of their cases. Joining Anita Rani is one of these whistleblowers, Helen Evans, who until 2015 was global head of Safeguarding at Oxfam.An estimated 17,000 children are impacted by maternal imprisonment every year but their needs are rarely considered when their mum is arrested, sentenced or sent to prison. So today The Prison Reform Trust has issued an urgent call for action for better support for those who are among the most vulnerable children in society. As part of this call for action, the charity has published a new toolkit to help practitioners, who are involved with these children, ensure they are properly supported, listened to and their needs identified and met. We hear from Layla, one of six children, whose mother was first imprisoned when she was seven, and associate of the Prison Reform Trust, Sarah Beresford project lead for the toolkit.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Lisa Verrico Interviewed Guest: Rose Ayling-Ellis Interviewed Guest: Helen Evans Interviewed Guest: Sarah Beresford

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger.

Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Felicity Finch. You may know me as Ruth in The Archers. I have something important to ask you before you listen to your podcast. This Christmas, thousands of people across the UK will be without a safe place to call home. But you can help change that.

A gift to the Radio 4 Christmas Appeal with St Martin-in-the-Fields can help people find a home by providing a much-needed deposit or paying for rent in advance. Everything starts with home. And this Christmas, home starts with you. Please support the Radio 4 Christmas Appeal by donating online on the Radio 4 Christmas Appeal website. When times are so difficult for so many, thank you for helping people to restart their lives with a home. Now enjoy your podcast. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. And we have some star sparkle in the studio today. Rose Ayling-Ellis is coming in to talk about her West End debut as Celia in As You Like It.

Who can forget, though, that game-changing moment on Strictly when we, the audience, experienced how Rose experiences music during her couple's choice routine with her partner Giovanni Panicce. She covered his ears, the music disappeared, but their beautiful routine continued. It was magical, emotional TV that made a huge point about disability and Rose's life experience. So this morning, I thought I'd like you to share with me your own life game-changing moments or the time you felt you were able to express your true, authentic self. A moment you've been able to make your point that maybe made you feel powerful or

simply just seen. The point in your life where things may have changed for you. Was it when you became a mother? The day you came out? The day you quit your job? Or maybe got the job of your dreams? For me, there've been a few. Writing a memoir is definitely a game-changing moment. But also, I was able to express a huge amount simply by wearing a sari while presenting on national TV for the Queen's Jubilee. It was a powerful, defining moment. But how about you? Let's relive your moment this morning and high-five and fist-bump you through the speakers. You can get in touch with me in the usual way.

The text number 84844. You can contact me via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Or how about a WhatsApp or even a voice note? It's 03700 100 444 and do check all the terms and conditions which can be found on our website. There's also a fascinating and powerful new documentary looking into three famous cases of female whistleblowers. It's on general release. Well, one of the women, Helen Evans, who bravely decided to speak out about the abuse within Oxfam, the charity she worked for, will be joining me to discuss why she took the step to call it out

and the real price of being a whistleblower. And of course, you can contact us about anything you'd like to share with me about what you're hearing on the programme. The text number once again, 84844. But I would love to hear your life game changing moment. First, though, the Canadian Grammy winning singer Celine Dion, who had a mega hit with the track My Heart Will Go On, has revealed her diagnosis of stiff person syndrome, an incurable, rare neurological disorder that causes muscle rigidity and episodes of severe spasms.

In an emotional video shared with her 5.2 million followers on Instagram, she announced that the condition will leave her unable to play planned shows in Europe. Here's what she had to say. I'm working hard with my sports medicine therapist every day to build back my strength and my ability to perform again. But I have to admit, it's been a struggle.

All I know is singing. It's what I've done all my life. And it's what I love to do the most. I miss you so much. I miss seeing all of you being on the stage, performing for you. I always give 100% when I do my shows. But my condition is not allowing me to give you that right now so um what will this mean for her and for her career i'm joined by the music journalist lisa

verrico to discuss it further morning lisa welcome to woman's hour you watched her announcement on instagram really emotional even just hearing that edited bit on the programme just now. What did you make of it? It's so sad. You can hear her trying to fight back the tears. I mean, if anybody was born to sing and born to be on stage,

it's Celine Dion. I mean, it's just, it's really heartbreaking. She was due to come on a tour to Europe, but she's had to put all of that on hold. She's been postponing things for a while. I saw her in Hyde Park in 2019. It was fantastic.

She was an absolutely crazy show. Packed. People singing along. Adele was in the audience there, who's a massive fan. Got lots of famous fans now. But yeah, since that, since the pandemic, she was supposed to be going back to Vegas last year

and postponed that. She postponed US tour dates this year and she's now cancelling or postponing European dates for next year. I think we should remind people, maybe some of our younger listeners who might not know much about Celine Dion, just how wonderful her voice is.

I mean, whether you are a fan of her music or not, the voice is undeniable. Let's get some context, though. Just how huge is she within the music industry? Oh, well, massive. I mean, commercially, albums-wise, you're looking at the 90s, she was probably one of the biggest selling artists of the 90s. Live-wise, she went vegas in the noughties and has the she was the highest earning

artist in the world because of the vegas residency but i mean what people lots of people forget about celine dale she was famous from when she was a child she was born in quebec and started singing four or five she won a international song contest at 14. And she won, which loads of people forget, she won Eurovision, age 20, singing for Switzerland because she always sung in French. And when she was 20, I mean, she was absolutely, by then she'd already had gold records in France, Canada. She was absolutely, she was a huge artist already before then.

So before she had, she did the Beauty and the Beast song for Disney, 91, 70s, and that was her first hit. But then after that, she just blew after that. 200 million album sales. I mean, by her Las Vegas residency, she was earning half a million dollars a show. So kind of the Adele of the 90s, I suppose, but almost kind of more interesting because between all the English albums she did she was always doing French

albums that was her true love but she did have to change the sort of public perception of herself didn't she because she for some people she was seen as quite cheesy and kind of mainstream and she wasn't cool whatever cool means but you said she, you just said when you went to see her play live, that she had lots of fans now. Yeah, right. And so in the 90s, absolutely, she wasn't cool. So you had big belting balladeers. You had a sort of Raya Carey and, you know, Whitney Houston.

So they were pop from the off, and she absolutely wasn't pop from the off. She was more, I don't know, kind of refined and it was more of a soft rock, definitely not cool, not cool at all. And I guess just, you know, because those songs have lasted so long now, I saw Drake, for example, the rapper Drake declared himself a big fan when he saw her on tour. And, you know, you get a few people like that. She did an album in 2019 courage which is the first english language album for years and she had sam smith sia all these big producers like dale greg kirsten sort of adele's producers on there so yeah definitely a reappraisal of her in the last few years what do you make of her turning to instagram to share this news with her fans i mean she's not the first to do it adelele did the same when she cancelled her Vegas residency. Yeah, well, definitely now you speak kind of directly to your fans. But she has been cancelling shows for a while,

this muscle spasm that she had. And you can't keep cancelling shows and not give people, you know, a proper explanation for it because people are, you know, booking flights and stuff um yeah it just you couldn't listen to that explanation and not just be absolutely heartbroken for it so yes of course it's the best thing to do but it's very difficult yeah and i guess it's this new world now where we get more of an insight into the people we we love and our celebrities that we put on a pedestal this This would never have happened before. And now, not only have they got the ability

to share this detail about their lives with us, we sort of expect them to do it, don't we? Yeah, but it means so much more. You hear her quivering voice and holding back tears, you know that she means it. You've just got a sort of press statement saying, oh, she's cancelling more shows, she's got this syndrome. You know, people would be, just to hear her say it

and hear how much she loves being on stage and how much she misses being on stage I mean her Las Vegas residency was absolutely just transformed people doing residences she had a special uh venue 4,000 seat venue built for her based on the coliseum it was you know people said it's this is crazy it was supposed to last for three years this is never going to work. People will get bored of it. And she did 15 years. I mean, that's incredible. It is incredible.

And you were lucky enough to see her sing live. And it is a very emotional clip. And if you want to watch all of it, then it is on her Instagram. Lisa, thank you very much for speaking to us this morning. 84844 is the number to text. We're asking people for their sort of life-changing, life-defining moments. The morning I birthed my son

after three years of infertility treatment, he will be 21 tomorrow and looking at him, I experienced a high that has never been repeated. Someone has been in touch. Someone else has been in touch

to say the moment was standing up to my abusive ex-husband in court. It was the first time I really said no to him. I said no in capital letters and it was frightening but empowering. Knowing that I have that strength is helping me rebuild my life and I feel incredibly proud of myself. 844 the number to text or contact us via social media at BBC Women's Hour.

Now, a powerful new documentary about whistleblowers has just been released. When We Speak follows the stories of three women. Helen Evans, a former Oxfam employee who spoke out about sexual exploitation and abuse at Oxfam GB. British intelligence employee Catherine Gunn, who leaked a memo from GCHQ in the run-up to the Iraq war. And Rose McGowan, who spoke out about sexual abuse in Hollywood. The documentary shares shares motivations, experiences and fallout of each of the cases. Well, joining me now is one of the women featured,

Helen Evans, who until 2015 was Global Head of Safeguarding at Oxfam. Welcome to the studio, Helen. Oh, thank you for having me. It's an incredibly powerful documentary and I had to put everything down, sit down and was gripped by all three of your stories. Why did you decide that you wanted to take part in it? Gosh, initially, I said no. I said no many times. Why? Why say no first? it was important to tell the story of the survivors and to speak up for them. And that,

you know, my experience was very much secondary to that. But Taz Brooker, who's the director, is very persuasive. But also she said to me, she said, you know, so often we hear the story, you know, the Oxfam story, but what we don't hear about is what happens to the whistleblowers after. And she really wanted to tell that message and to talk about the importance of improving rights for whistleblowers so yeah she she convinced me and eventually I said yes. I wonder how significant it is that it was a she? Very um I'd had a few people approach me and Taz was the first person who I thought really understood the story and I thought would put it across in a thoughtful and considered way, keeping survivors at the heart of it.

And yeah, it was very much a woman's production. And I think that made me feel very comfortable and at ease and, you know, trusted her with my story. And we are going to find out about what it meant to be a whistleblower and the impact it had on your life. But before we do, I think we should remind listeners about what exactly happened. You were asked to visit Haiti in 2011 after the terrible earthquake in 2010. What was your role at Oxfam and what did you see? So at that time I was in an HR room and I went there in an HR capacity and they were investigating allegations of sexual exploitation. So this is

basically women there, survivors of the earthquake, having to have survival sex with aid workers in order to feed their kids and Oxfam workers taking advantage of that. Afterwards, I then became the global head of safeguarding. And I think like many people, I thought that was a one off. And very sadly, quickly became apparent it wasn't and that there were systemic issues. So I was visiting many country programmes. And time and time again, I was hearing the same story. And my hope had been I thought, well, it's perhaps the organisation isn't fully aware of this and if I bring enough information to their attention they will take it seriously and act and they didn't

so I presented we did a survey with 120 staff and one in 10 of the staff were telling us that witnessed or experienced sexual exploitation and abuse. And in one country programme, we had 7% saying they'd witnessed or experienced rape or attempted rape. Really serious allegations. And at this point, you're head of safeguarding. Yeah. And it was me and one other person and a network of focal points.

And I was desperately saying, you know, we've got a systemic issue and we've got a massive problem that we need to get on top of. And I was desperately saying, you know, we've got a systemic issue and we've got a massive problem that we need to get on top of. And at the meeting, I was meant to present that to the chief exec. They cancelled my session. And that was the point where I walked out, took it to the charity commission. Unfortunately, at that time, it wasn't taken seriously enough. And it took a couple of years until Sean O'Neill of the Times broke the story about Haiti another whistleblower gave him that information but he broke the story and finally people took

note so just to get the timeline you left you left you quit the job in 2015 but you weren't the whistleblower not the times I spent a year um after I left Oxfam trying to get people to listen yeah again and again going back to the charity commission who didn't even invite me in for an interview um and then it was another person in 2018 shared that story with the times and at that point i thought this is my moment and i think because when i was speaking out we hadn't had me too we hadn't got all the information that we now have so it was the right time for that story to go public and and thankfully people did then listen and you went to in 2018 you gave your first interview to kathy newman at channel 4 news So it was the right time for that story to go public. And thankfully, people did then listen. And you went to, in 2018, you gave your first interview to Cathy Newman at Channel 4 News.

How come? Because I wanted to give the story to someone I could trust. And I'd seen the way that Cathy covered other stories of that nature. And to keep survivors at the heart of it. And for me, that was the key thing. So, yeah, I just cold called Channel 4 and said, you know, I'd like to speak with Cathy. And Cathy was just wonderful because I was so nervous and so unsure about was I doing the right thing? Because up until that point, I hadn't spoken to the press. And she was just so thoughtful and sensitive and really made me feel able to tell that story to her.

And before we find out what happened after that, what was your life like in the interim between 2015 and that interview with Cathy? It was tough. I'd constantly felt like I'd let people down by not being able to get the senior management to take me seriously. And that's so hard when you've heard disclosures and people put their trust in you. In some of the countries we're operating in to disclose rape or sexual assault, you put your life at risk if that becomes known. So they trust you with that information and they trust that you're going to take action and you're in a senior role. And then when you can't affect the change needed, you feel so powerless. And I felt really powerless for the years in between and that I'd let them down. And also you didn't have a job.

Yeah, I walked out and I had a one year old son at the time. And it wasn't easy. It took a bit of a while for me to get back on my feet. I mean, there was a huge fallout for Oxfam, a government inquiry, withdrawal of government funding, statutory inquiries by the Charity Commission into Oxfam and a few months later to save the children. But what about the fallout for your life? What was it like for you after that interview in 2018? So at the time I gave the interview, the Charity Commission were just kicking off their investigation. MPs were just starting to look at it. And so for Oxfam staff, there's a question there, is this true? And, you know, the vast majority of Oxfam workers are dedicated, committed, and you want to think the best of your organisation. So for many of them, they thought,

what are her motivations here? Is this really true? Or is there another agenda? And they were hurt and angry. And I live in Oxford, or I used to live in Oxford, and that's where most of the Oxfam workers are based. And inevitably, when I was out and about, some people shared how they felt. And I totally understood it, but that was really hard to be on the raw end of people saying, you know, Oxfam staffs, you know, Oxfam's lost income,

we're losing our jobs, and that's on you. And it's a huge global charity that actually does a lot of good work as well, and relies on people supporting them and funding them. So it's a big conflict, because you wanted to, you loved your job. Yeah, and that was, you know, that was probably the biggest thing in my mind, going over and over before I did the Channel 4 interview, is could I be responsible for loss of income for Oxfam? That would then mean less help for people and you know I've worked that through and I very much

understand that that responsibility lay with senior management for their failures but that was really when people then were repeating that back to me and saying this is on you you feel terrible about it and they were coming up to you in the street yeah it was um it was when they did that with my son that was the tipping point where I thought actually I don't think I can carry on living here anymore so I did um then relocate um because I just I don't want to put him in that position a way to having people up having a go at his mum so you left Oxford the place that was your home yeah well that's. That's a huge life decision to make. It was really tough.

And it was tough on my son and my husband at the time. We've since divorced. But it was necessary, unfortunately. And you've divorced as well. So the impact on your life was catastrophic. It was hard. You know, it became something that I struggled to think about other things. I think you become so focused on these when you become a whistleblower, that issue becomes everything. And sometimes that can be to the exclusion of other people.

And yeah, it was a tough few years. The documentary, which as I said is a really powerful watch, is about three female whistleblowers. What do you think being a female whistleblower, how do you think that makes a difference being a woman? I was really conscious when I spoke that a lot of women whistleblowers are dismissed as hysterical, overreacting, over emotional. I'm autistic. And I think that gave me an advantage because I'm used to masking. And when I gave my interview, I thought I have just got to be cool and calm if I'm to be believed. Because I show emotion through these interviews they're not going to take me seriously as a woman and that was something I had to you know really hold and it meant people did listen that I got invited to speak to MPs I got the interviews but that does

come at a toll as neurodivergent people know when you mask that long and you have to conceal how you're feeling it it comes out in different ways I mean while all of this was going on I understand it your it was your son who received the autistic diagnosis first and then you were diagnosed at the same time and I'm bringing this up because you've you've mentioned it but also is there quite a strong tie-in between being autistic and being a whistleblower yeah so my my son's autistic with a PDA profile and um I was totally ignorant um hadn't a clue I was autistic until going through the diagnosis I was like oh this sounds very very familiar um so I got my diagnosis a year after my son and I've written a paper about this I do believe that there are strengths that autistic

people bring that mean they can be good whistleblowers. I think a lot of autistic people have a passion for social justice and because you're autistic you notice a little less those social dynamics that normally keep people silent and you tend to be a bit more direct in your communication and a bit more single minded. So I think being autistic meant that I saw it through when there were many times when, you know, perhaps I could have walked away. Have you processed the trauma of what you went through? Gosh, that's a hard one. I had an amazing therapist for two years um who I saw weekly um because I was experiencing PTSD symptoms I was getting flashbacks and panic attacks and those symptoms I very rarely get those now

I think as everyone in the documentary, Catherine and Rose said, it lives with you. I don't think you ever fully process it, but you come to, it becomes just a part of your life. And you come to terms with that, but your life is different after. We have had a statement from a spokesperson for Oxfam and they said, we should have acted more quickly on Helen's concerns and deeply regret that we did not. We have since increased investment

and introduced a range of measures to help prevent abuses of power and better protect all those with whom we work. While the UK government and our regulator, the Charity Commission, have acknowledged the progress we've made, we know there will always be more to do. We continue to strive to improve our safeguarding

and ensure that survivors and whistleblowers feel safe to report concerns. No one should suffer for speaking out. What do you think about that? I think progress has been made, but there's still so much further to go. I was one whistleblower there's so many other um incredible women who contributed to the change and are still in that space um but it was only you know in 21 21 they were um their funding was reinstated and then a month later it was stripped from them for more allegations um there's an acknowledgement by government that progress

has been made, but there's still challenges. There's still so much further to go. It is an incredible watch, the documentary. And what struck me and what comes out is that all three of you who really bravely spoke out, it was vital that you did. And yet the consequences for all three of you and your lives were huge in order to do it what protections do you think there should be in place for whistleblowers well i think first of all acknowledge protect their whistleblowing charity and they are one of the few organizations you can go to for legal advice but then you're on your own you know they can give you advice but there is absolutely no one to accompany you through that. And there was me against a three, 400 million pound charity. And, you know, I spent money I didn't have getting

additional advice. I personally believe there needs to be a public funded organisation that supports whistleblowers through that process and accompanies them so they're not alone. Because a lot of good can come out of whistleblowing you know it's in everybody's interest for wrongdoing to be called out and remedied so why is it whistleblowers have to pay such a personal price for something that's in the public interest helen thank you so much for coming in to speak to me and the documentary when we speak is available to rent on major streaming platforms. Thank you so much. Thank you. Now, a little bit of stardust in the studio. You may remember the video that went viral in 2021 of Rose Ayling Ellis

and her Strictly Come Dancing partner Giovanni dancing in complete silence during their couple's choice dance. Rose is deaf and uses British Sign Language to help her communicate. They wanted to use their dance to show what it's like for the deaf community on a daily basis. She went on to win the show and won a BAFTA after the dance was voted by the public as the must-see TV moment of the year.

She's since successfully campaigned for British Sign Language to be recognised as an official language of the UK, signed a CBeebies bedtime story and helped launch the first ever Barbie doll with behind the ear hearing aids. Now she's back on stage making her West End debut in Shakespeare's romantic comedy As You Like It at the Soho Place Theatre and she joins me now in the studio with her British Sign Language interpreter Liam. Welcome. Hello. It is wonderful to have you in the studio Rose. How does it feel to be on stage in Shakespeare making your western debut? It's really nice because I haven't been in a theatre since before Covid

since before extended and it made me realise how much I missed it. I love the audience and the energy you get from the audience and putting on a show and it's very intimate. It's only 500 people and you're putting on a show for them and making

them involved in your storytelling is Shakespeare always something you've wanted to do actually no um I still take it me with one of the worst dubstep I did not like it at all I just thinking why why do people write like that why I mean we've got modern English why do we need to learn all your language? But it didn't until now that I started doing rehearsals where I realised actually there's so much in the life that we live, it's very Shakespeare.

The language that was involved from it, the humour and the jokes we did, everything came from it. So it's like a real history lesson for me. But also you being in Shakespeare because you are using sign language to express what's being said actually is making it more accessible for people who maybe fear going to see Shakespeare because of the language.

Yeah exactly. I had someone in the audience last night who's not very Shakespeare, doesn't really watch Shakespeare but because of the caption and because of the sound language, it made them feel less intimidated by it and a bit more accessed and more inclusive. And you can see a lot of humour in the body language as well. So even if you don't completely understand everything that's being said, you can understand the story. And Celia is funny funny the character you play she

brings a lot of light to the show very different to your gritty role in eastenders um what appealed to you about her character i just feel like um she it's almost like a deaf character even though it's having me listening this day there's a lot of things that I can relate to it a lot because she had a really close friendship and then she got left out when her friends fell in love and that happened to all of us I'm sure. And also her bad relationship with her father, the family dynamic, the language is perfect because with her father, she speaks, but she's so strong-minded by it that she sues not to speak. Rather than she can't speak, she sues not to because she wants to stand.

It's her expression, it's her language. And almost you can see Sheila's desperate to just be who she wants to be. You mentioned there one of the themes in the show is friendship and sisterhood between the cousins, Rosalind and Celia. Did you draw on your own family or friendships when you were preparing for that role? Luckily, I got some of the closest female friendship that we stay close. And I think we all have that.

And I think female friendship is one of the most important things at being a woman, I suppose. I mean, this is women now, so let's talk about women. Oh yeah, let's bring it on. You're in the right place. Let's do it. Yes.

And sometimes when you fall out with your female friend, it can hurt more than relationship. Yeah, it's a heartbreak. It's a heartbreak. Yeah. It's a heartbreak. It really is. Just how easy or difficult is it to translate Shakespeare into BSL?

Oh, not easy. Not easy. A lot of people think you just sign word by word. No, no, no, no, it doesn't work like that. Because if you sign word by word, you kind of lose the meaning. What did it mean? Because Shakespeare is very mystical, but in sign language, very literal. So if we sign, for example,

it's raining cats and dogs. Yeah. That means it's raining heavy. If we do it in sign language, word by word, we would literally be saying there's cats and dogs falling from the ceiling. So we actually have to change it to more like an expression. To paint a picture for our listeners,

you use BSL as part of the performance and there are captions because it's in the round, the theatre is in the round. So there are captions around the stage for everyone to be able to read. Why was it so important? Why were you so passionate to make this an inclusive show? Because I don't go to many West End shows.

Yeah. Because West End shows only have like one caption per year or per whole run. They only have one. And when I do go to watch these captions, they're like on the other side of the room and I'm twisting my neck and I want to watch these captions, they're, like, on the other side of the room, and I'm twisting my neck, and I want to watch it actor. I don't want to be... I might as well just print off a script and read it myself.

Yeah. So with this, I felt like this is a brand-new theatre, a brand-new theatre, and I feel like, right, at the first show, let's make it inclusive. Let's set it up. And because it's round, you've got captions all around, and it's also designed to sort of integrate into the show. So it's decorated.

So it's nice that I can go and watch a show and feel like the caption is part of the show rather than the caption is there because I need my access. Yeah, as an add-on. How much of the part, how part of the process were you of making sure that it was as inclusive as possible? Yes.

So everyone had deaf awareness training. Jodie, the director, she's wonderful. I didn't feel like I have to fight for anything. I didn't feel like I have to ask. I just asked once and it got done and Jodie really caring about it too and the theatre as well

because it's brand new they're learning and they want to it's a modern world that we live in now some of the theatre is so old it needs to catch up with time I can't believe I said that Say it! You're not shy of talking about things you're not shy at all i re-watched your amazing alternative mctaggart speech now this is a huge speech that

you make to people within the television industry and you got on that platform and you really spoke some home truths about what it means to be deaf and working as an actor but you also said that you were torn because you just want to turn up smile do the job but here you are having to push for change as well yeah yeah um doing that to be probably the hardest thing I ever done because it's so honest and so open and it's the part of me that I don't always share because of the fears that come with it. But yeah, I feel like sometimes I want to just enjoy the job I do, but a part of me, I can't just fully enjoy it.

I still have to make changes. But in a way, I appreciate, I love being deaf because it's giving me a purpose it's giving me something to aim for but it can be exhausting sometimes and what are the fears the fear of speaking the truth and perhaps everyone get a bit scared of it or not there's a thing because people are learning and they don't know about it and that's okay people learning for the first time but they could either go extreme way where they're too scared of offending me that they avoid me completely or don't speak about it or just don't want to talk about it and it's okay to talk about and make mistakes that's what I want to say but the fear of okay um losing all my opportunity

because no one wants to offend me so I mean no one wants to or you're the person who's constantly talking about the change so you can't just turn up and smile and do the job. No, I can't just turn up and talk about, oh, look, this is what I'm doing. I'm doing acting, all this stuff. But I'm also, I've been, it's almost like I am political without asking to be political. Sure.

You've got no choice. No, I've got no choice. But that's okay. I mean, who else is doing it? Yeah. Well, it's just you is that a big burden yeah yeah um yeah it can be hard sometimes but it can be exciting as well because when it goes right yes but when it doesn't feel like fighting like fighting. Sometimes I just feel like, you know what, I can't be bothered.

Yeah. So when that happens, when you do feel like you can't be bothered, who supports you? Who have you got around you to really pick you up and say, we've got you? I think my family. My family, my friend, my interpreter, my deaf friend, they do pick me up. And especially deaf people, I think, because you can talk about it with them without explaining to them.

They just get what it is. Or sometimes I just like to just watch a film with subtitles and just watch a film. Or read my book. Or paint a picture. It's important to do that. Or go to a concert. A concert and dance yeah yeah i read somewhere that friends of yours when you were younger couldn't understand why you

would go to a concert because they didn't understand how a deaf person would experience a concert yeah i go to last issue festival and i went every single year for many many years um and i love it it's just the atmosphere, the vibe. And they have interpreters there. And they're saying, I can hear the music, but I don't know what they're saying. So sometimes we just love it. I'm like, oh, this is the start. Why not?

I like to go to a festival. Of course. Absolutely. And we've got to, I know we've talked about the burden and the pressure of having to speak out about your experience. But also, we've got to recognize the changes you have made and how beautifully you have done it. I started the program by talking about that game-changing moment of watching you dance with Giovanni Panicce on Strictly. I mean, you must have had a huge reaction to that.

Yes. It's funny because when I was in City and doing the dance, I didn't really see it because you're so in the bubble. You're focused on the new dance, right? You've got a dance every week. It wasn't until I left City and then the whole Bath with me and until after that, it was thinking, oh, wow. And people still talk about it. every week um it wouldn't till i left for it and then the whole bath with the and it till after that is really stinking oh wow and people still talk about it um yeah and it it's a funny one

because i never really planned for this much of a change and it happened and i'm so happy that it happened in this way but there's still a lot of work to be done there's still a lot of i mean it was so positive, but that's why I'm going to do the documentary at the moment. Tell me about that. What's the documentary? So the documentary, we haven't planned anything, but it's basically putting me on a journey to sort of discover what needs to be changed

and what support deaf people should get nowadays. We're still working on it and we're filming it at the same time doing the theatre. So I think it's good to see all the positive, but it's good to have a balance to see all the reality. Do you have the option to say no to things? Only just recently now, yes. I mean, before 3E saying i always say yes to everything because i don't get that many opportunities i say yes whenever i can but now i got given so

much stuff for the first time i'm saying no and it felt awful you feel awful do you not feel powerful that's what my agent said actually it's good to say no because it's good to show what what kind of um path i want to go on yeah i just want to do everything but i understand how important it is to say no yeah and i'm learning how to say no and i think that come with age i think i think i'm 27 now and i'm 28 i am no to being, I've got my boundary and I like it. Yeah, more power to you. Yeah. And you're only 28.

I love how you say it comes with age. You're only 28. You're such a long way to go, yeah. But also how, I know it's really important for you to create opportunities because you, like I said, it's just you at the minute. You're a lone voice, but you want to change that. Yeah. And telling stories is really important to you.

Aren't you working on a series or are you writing something? Yes. So because there's not many action role that is deaf, so we have to start writing it. And I want to have more than one deaf character in it. And the thing is, I always believe I like to have more than one deaf character in it and the thing is I always believe I like to build a ladder climbed it but I don't want to take the ladder with me I want to leave it behind for other deaf people to climb up to um so I feel like right this is the opportunity for me

I can't I'm not very good at writing but I've got a writer co-writer. So I've got a writer who is amazing. She's going to write it. And then we're going to sit in a room together with different people and have their experience share. Because I've always been talking about how there should be deaf people talking about their experience. I want to need it as a demonstration for my comedy series. Oh, yeah, we can't wait.

Cannot wait. Might be a long time, though., you have no. Well, come back and talk to us about it. And you dance in the play. Do I dance in this play? Well, Sheila is not a ballroom dancer. So I have to dance with a character dancer.

So it's not particularly like beautiful dancing. I mean, but how did it feel to be on stage dancing again? Yes. That must have felt great. Like a party. Yeah. It's actually quite nice because I don't have to worry about,

right, finish the foot, point my finger, do all this. I know. I don't have Giovanni telling me, like, do this, do this, do this. I can just jump up and down and do it really badly and not being told off anymore. As someone who has gone through Strictly, it's so magical, but it is hard work. It's hard.

It's so hard. It's hard, isn't it? Your body hurts. That's the stuff they don't tell you about, how much your body hurts. But you made it look so effortless and so elegant. Have you been able to watch it back? Yes.

It's only lately I start to watch back i'm like oh but i really missed it i really wish i really want to dance like that again because it's come with so much training we've been training eight hour every single day to get to that point but now even just me standing in a ballroom position I get out of breath what about you do you feel like I mean I couldn't I think you're taught

to dance like that aren't you I mean I'd rather just dance at any given opportunity just move around but I was not a patch on you

you were absolutely amazing Rose it's been such a pleasure talking to you thank you so much I can't wait to see what you do next

good luck with the rest of the production have an amazing Christmas thank you and Thank you so much. I can't wait to see what you do next. Good luck with the rest of the production. Have an amazing Christmas. Thank you. And thank you for having me. Oh, any time. You're welcome any, any time. We'll put the kettle on,

get the biscuits in next time. Get the biscuits. So we've been asking you, Rose Ayling-Ellis, amazing, amazing woman. We've been asking you about your breakthrough moments, the moments that defined your life.

Linda has been in touch to say, my breakthrough moment was my first day as a teacher when I was 40. It always been my ambition to teach, but I failed to become a teacher at the age of 21. On that first day, I thought I'd end a day's pay as a teacher. No matter what happens now, nothing can change that. I taught for years and loved it. Rose, we've been asking people to share their life-changing moments based on your life moment on strictly ah so people that's what people are getting touched and telling kate says she says i was sacked and decided to go solo and work as a self-employed it was a nervous moment waiting for the telephone to ring but i've never looked back. Good for him. Good. Yes, exactly.

Now, so many of you are getting in touch. 84844 is the number to text. So what do teenage girls talk about and think about when they're together? For an occasional series called Girls World, Enna Miller went to school in Glasgow to talk to Olivia, Francesca and Saskia, who are all 14. First she asked about something they seem to do a lot of, hanging about.

Hanging about, I guess it's just kind of being comfortable in each other's company and just kind of enjoying the silence and the peace. It's just a very nice vibe to everything when you're hanging about. And the fun? The fun is more like we jump about and we're like not screaming but we're shouting you know like having a good time and just using a lot

of our energy while hanging about it's more like you're mellowing out a bit we brought in a blanket and had some snacks to watch the sunset quite a few times and it's just a really nice experience because you can kind of forget about the stress of like the whole week and just relax yeah I just sort of want to have a rough idea of what those stresses are definitely school because you know now that we're seniors in our school there's more pressure on us we all work hard in our classes but obviously now that the work is getting harder you have to put more effort into things and sometimes the people in our school also that causes quite a bit of stress definitely then I go to bed and I'm thinking still thinking about it what type of advice do you give each other if we're having like struggles like mentally if we're

just like having a bad day or something at least one person will be able to cheer you up and like give you a bit of helpful pep talk almost I'd say like Saskia's quite calm if I'm stressed out about something she's kind of like Olivia chill out just down, it'll be fine. Because I tend to overthink about the silliest things ever. Whereas Francesca's like, just deal with it. I'm a terrible vice-giver. Yeah, you kind of just, like, bat people on the back and, like, that's it. It's so much better now, thanks, Francesca. On a Friday when we make pasta together we can all have a big conversation

and everyone's included and just listening to music even if no one's speaking it's still like we're together so we're in each other's company But what are you talking about? A lot of the time it's what's going on at school and stuff We might talk about something we're watching.

What are you watching? Well, Stranger Things that came out on May 27th. I love how you remember the day it came out. Every teenager in the world has been waiting for it for four years because, you know, the set burned down and COVID happened. So, you know, we've all just been so excited. Because it's set in the 80s and stuff, and obviously we grew up in 2000s, 2010s,

and that's a completely different era. I really like the music from the 80s. I like the vibe of it and stuff. I like the 70s as well. Like, 70s have my heart, but the 80s is really cool. And then they really bring it to life in the show and they give you, like, a feel of... It's not exactly realistic, but it gives you, you like a nice little insight and kind of atmosphere I guess

that's it and why does the 70s have your heart because it has all the rock music I like all the punk music Led Zeppelin were booming in that time and I really like that band because of my dad and stuff so he got me into that when I was really young when I want to like think about my dad or something if I'm missing him or something because obviously I live in a different household than him I'll play like my playlist that I play in the car with him and it makes me feel like a bit better not seeing him why are you smiling about that Olivia yeah I remember as well the same for me like my dad whenever I was in the car when I was little he'd just be playing rock bands that he used to listen to

and, like, my parents' stories of having the posters on their wall, all the cars back then, they had a lot more character than that. Like, all the colour and everything, it just seemed more exciting, I guess. That was Girls World. 84844 is the number to text. Lots of you getting in touch about your game-changing, life-changing moments. From an early age, I'd been scared to speak out,

shy and really lacking in worth. Nine years ago, I went through a yoga teacher training where I was gently supported to find my voice. Now, an estimated 17,000 children are impacted by maternal imprisonment every year. But the Prison Reform Trust say their needs are rarely considered when their mum is arrested, sentenced or sent to prison. So today, they and a group of adult children whose mothers have been in prison are issuing an urgent call for action for better support for those who are among the most vulnerable children in society. As part of this call for action, the charity has published a new toolkit to help practitioners who are involved with these children ensure they're properly supported and listened to and their needs

identified and met. Well, joining me now is Associate of the Prison Reform Trust, Sarah Beresford, Project Lead for the toolkit. But first, I'm going to chat to Leila, who's now 21. She's one of six children whose mother was first imprisoned when she was seven. Morning to you both, Leila and Sarah. Leila, like I said, I'm going to come to you first. You were only seven when your mum was first arrested. What was it like for you and your siblings growing up with your mum going in and out of prison? Yeah, I was only seven at the time and I'd say it was very hard for us all.

It's a traumatic experience, isn't it? So I think the fact that we got no support for about it was the hardest part we were left to raise each other you were left to raise each other yeah well until like our family noticed and stuff but the professionals didn't so no so because your eldest your your your eldest sister you were 10 your eldest sister was 12 so when how long were you left on your own and when did someone notice? So we were left like just short periods of time on our own. Sometimes it got to like a couple of months and that's when someone noticed. It was our family that noticed that we were on our own.

I mean, Sarah, I think for people listening, that's going to be quite shocking to hear that. Just that one fact from Leila that they were left on their own until their family noticed. Is that unusual? It's really shocking. And whilst particularly harrowing, it's not sadly unusual. There's a serious lack of care for and consideration of children with a mum in the criminal justice system, despite the fact that they experience a range of emotions. So trauma if they witness mum's arrest, shock when she's sentenced, grief and loss when she goes to prison. Some children might feel angry with mum. Others may be relieved if life was tricky and then guilty about feeling that.

So a wide range of complex emotions, but next to no support available. Children are ignored at best and actually often further stigmatised within the very systems that should support them. So, Leila, what impact did it have on you when you became a teenager and now as a young adult? I think as a teenager I was a bit reckless. I didn't know who to listen to or, like, no one had authority on me. I'd just done my own thing. And even now as a young

adult it still plays its effects like I have attachment issues and certain mental health issues and stuff like that. And what about your siblings? It affects us all like we're all very different people so it affects us differently and like my older sister as you said she was 12 at the time and taking on a mum role, you can just imagine the effects. It seems the system let you all down. Yeah. But what support could have made it easier for you? What should have been available?

I think the likes of teachers, they should have the support available for you because that's who you run to. Social services, they were aware of what was going on but just weren't any help at all and the police when they arrest mum why not come to the children and check they're okay and that's partly why I've come up with the child impact assessment form with Sarah tell me more about that Sarah what we've done is we've been listening to children and young people like Leila with their own experiencing, recognizing that nobody's thinking about children at any stage of their mum's journey.

Often agencies think that someone else is, but they're not. And we have created together, we've been asking children, what is it that would make a difference? And we've put together this child impact assessment that's really about listening to children, offering them support at the earliest opportunity and crucially, including them in decision making about that support. Lots of children said their views were never considered. And we believe that they should be, it's their right under the United Nations Convention of the Rights of the Child. And so the child impact assessment is a framework for a conversation with children. It's very action focused. Children are invited to write actions in their own words, to ask questions that they might have. And alongside

it, we're publishing a toolkit of resources to support a wide range of practitioners to use the child impact assessment to make sure children get the support that they need. And who will this toolkit be available to? It's for everybody. So what I did was, as well as consulting with children and young people, I spoke to practitioners from health, education, social work, charities that support families affected by imprisonment, and criminal justice agencies, don't deal with children and among practitioners who support children, we don't know what to do about criminal justice. So really to address that, funded by the Churchill Fellowship, I put together this consultation process, took all the feedback from everyone. And really, we're laying out the vision in the toolkit of how we can support children. That's the question that has failed to be addressed over the years. How do we do this?

And that's what the toolkit does. Because the needs are so specific. Yeah, the needs are very specific, and yet they often feel lonely, isolated. It affects their mental health. It's a really vulnerable time for children and young people, and there isn't the support often available. I've got to ask you, Sarah because people listening might might want to know the answer to this which is how is it different when a father is arrested and in prison so when a mother is taken away the issues are very much uh very similar and and the toolkit that we're publishing how we've adapted the

resources for use with with children with fathers what we do know from research though is it's particularly hard when it's your mum lots of children children said to me, you know, it's my mum who makes me who I am. And the loss of a mum can bring a lot of other changes for young people. When dad goes to prison, most children stay in the family home. When it's mum, they often go into either formal or informal care. And that's really disruptive for all of their lives. But the bottom line is what we're saying today is all children need support at the earliest opportunity in a way that includes them in decisions about them well let's ask leila you know how hard was it to lose mum it was very hard i mean it has it affects on me now still and when i was younger and all my

siblings it's it's not. It's a traumatic experience. But it has impacted you so much, but you actually are doing something about it. You now support children who have mothers in prisons. So how do you go about it? What do you do? So I'm a children's mentor for a thing called Time Matters, a support group,

and they support children whose parents have gone into prison. It can be their aunties, their uncles, their uncles brothers sisters just anyone who's affected them and why is it important for you to do that i think just giving them the time to talk about the feelings and they know someone's there to listen to them and they're not alone because it can feel very isolating it's important so what would you like to see happen now sar Sarah? We would love this toolkit to be implemented. We've designed it so all the resources within it at the heart is the child impact assessment itself, which is a framework for having those conversations with children and drawing out what it is that they want to happen. And then resources around it that can be used as standalone or as part of a pilot project to really make sure that children's needs are assessed right through the criminal justice journey.

And it was interesting when we were putting together, it's very much centred on children and young people themselves. Practitioners we spoke to often were concerned, what if we can't deliver what children are saying they want? What children are actually saying they want is more than deliverable. I'll just give some examples. So Brad said, you know, he wanted to say goodbye to his mum before the police took her away. He wished someone had said, is there anyone we can call? And like Leila, Brad and his sister were left alone in the house. And so they weren't able to say goodbye. So there is nothing. Right. And lots of children want to hear mum's voice as soon as she gets to prison. One girl said when her mum came out on tag, she didn't understand what that meant in terms of restrictions.

In other words, what children want is often about understanding, communicating, listening to their questions and concerns. And I think if we get that right, that will go a long way to ensuring children are better supported and are not living with trauma and grief and loss and not supported. Well, Sarah and Leila, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning on that. Lots of you getting in touch about your life game changing moment. I'm sorry if I haven't been able to read your message out.

So many of them, but thank you for being in touch. Someone anonymous said my game changing moment was after my early retirement when I morphed into a community activist, leading volunteers during lockdown, actively encouraging residents' comments on massive developments in our village, and then being elected to council. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Anita Arnand and I'm hosting this year's BBC Wreath Lectures, which are on the subject of freedom. The lectures are inspired by Franklin D. Roosevelt's famous Four Freedoms speech. And this year, we have not one, but four speakers.

We look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms. The first is freedom of speech and expression. The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way. The third is freedom from want. The fourth is freedom from want. The fourth is freedom from fear. A quartet of speakers examine what freedom means today, beginning with the best-selling author Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie.

Freedom of speech is, I think, essential to being human. You can hear all the lectures on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. Just search for The Wreath Lectures. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.