Woman's Hour - Roxanne Tahbaz, Mina Smallman, Amara Okereke on playing Eliza Doolittle

Episode Date: May 25, 2022

It has been just over two months since Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and Anoosheh Ashoori returned to the UK from detention in Iran, and were reunited with their families. But for the family of London born businessman and wildlife conservationist Morad Tahbaz it’s been a different story. The family said they expected their father to be part of the same deal but he was only released on furlough and swiftly returned to prison. His daughter Roxanne Tahbaz joins Emma. On yesterday’s programme Nazanin paid tribute to those who campaigned for her release and in particular the ordinary women who supported her cause. Two of those women are retired primary school teacher Linda Grove and Freya Papworth from the organisation FiLia who organised a 24 hour fasting relay hunger strike. Both join Emma in the studio. Amara Okereke has taken on the role of a life time as Eliza Dolittle in My Fair Lady. Amara, who is 25 has been called 'the new face of British theatre' and has been performing at The Coliseum in London to rave reviews. She joins Emma to talk about the show.Mina Smallman has spoken to Woman's Hour several times to talk about her grief after the murder of her daughters Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman. Two weeks ago the two former police officers who took photos of her daughters and shared them with colleagues were back in court to try and get their sentences reduced. Mina was in court to see that happen, she joins Emma.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Thank you so much for your many emails, texts and social media messages about my conversation with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, which aired in full yesterday. It was her first interview since being freed from prison in Iran after six long years away from her home, husband and child.

And so many of you have been in touch. I will come back to some of those messages because, as I say, we've had so many and it'd be a shame not to reflect them. But I should say, if you missed that exclusive interview, you can catch up on BBC Sounds. It's being very well advertised on there right now. You can see Nazanin as we spoke.

And of course, you can hear that exchange in full. But if you actually want to watch Nazanin as well, there is a TV version available of our exchange on BBC iPlayer 2. Towards the end of our conversation, Nazanin was at pains to thank all of those who campaigned on her behalf, especially ordinary women who didn't know her, but still fought for her and took an interest in her story. I'll be talking to two of them this morning. And that's what I wanted to ask you about today. Who have you taken to your heart from the news or public life and followed their story? Why? What was it? Perhaps you then went on to campaign for them, all their cause, the issue that they were raising. What

petitions have you signed and actions taken? Perhaps you were part of the hunger strike chain of women for Nazanin. There's a lot that you could have done, may have done for the likes of her and others who find themselves unwittingly in the public eye who are those people for you and why past and present text me here at woman's hour on 84844 that's the number you need text will be charged just to remind you always do at your standard message rate we are on social media i hope you know by now at bbc woman's hour or you can email me through the woman's hour website also coming up on today's program with, with Boris Johnson expected to receive the Sue Gray report any time soon, really,

we remind ourselves about the woman tasked with appraising Downing Street Partygate. And we'll have some music for you from the new star of My Fair Lady, all to come. But all I'm saying at this point is there's a beautiful piano ready to be played and a microphone laid out. But first, we learned a lot about Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe during her exclusive interview with me here on Woman's Hour yesterday. You can of course hear it as I said in full on BBC Sounds.

She told us how she survived solitary confinement despite her claustrophobia. How comments by Boris Johnson where he incorrectly said that Nazanin was training journalists in Iran when she was actually on holiday to see her parents cast a shadow psychologically and emotionally over her for years. How she was forced to sign a false confession while a British official stood next to her before her release and leaving Iran early this year.

And we even heard how she taught yoga to other women who were in prison with her. Nazanin also spoke about how she's adjusting back to life in the UK. Now she's been home for just over two months. Every day there is one thing, one little thing in the house, a picture, a memory of the past that throws me back to where I was. And I don't think I have quite managed to close that and just move on. And I don't think I will be able to. I think we've got a saying in Farsi that says, you might leave prison, but prison will never leave you. It will be with you for the rest of your life. And I think I need to accept

that. And I think it takes a lot of time to get back on my feet. As we spoke about in our interview, upon release, Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe was accompanied by Anousheh Ashouri, the British Iranian, who was also being detained when she returned to the UK. Both were reunited with their families. But for the family of London-born businessman and wildlife conservationist Morad Tabaz, it's been a completely different story. The family said that they expected their father to be part of the same deal on that plane,

but he was only released on furlough and returned to Evin Prison in Tehran just 48 hours later. The British-American national, who also holds Iranian citizenship, was arrested during a crackdown on environmental activists in January 2018. He was sentenced to 10 years in prison along with colleagues from the Persian Wildlife Heritage Foundation on vague charges of spying for the US and undermining Iran's security. This is what Nazanin in our interview had to say

about Murad's plight on yesterday's programme. I cannot begin to tell you how I felt that day when I realised that Murad was not on the flight. I tried to think what Murad would have felt at the time that he realised that he was left behind. There is this kind of pain that you cannot even begin to imagine. I was mortified. I just could not believe that he was left behind. I just could not believe the image that Vida, Murad's wife, and I had made in our head that we would be all going together home. It's not going to happen. So I do genuinely believe, and I even told the Prime Minister, that Britain should hold Iran to account for that bit of the deal which Iran broke over Morad.

And it should not turn a blind eye on that because Morad should have been on that flight with us and Iran should be held accountable for it. Nazanin Zaghari-Watcliffe. Well, earlier this morning, I spoke to Mourad Tabaz's eldest daughter, Roxanne, who lives here in London. And I started by asking her what she made of Nazanin's words. We're so happy, obviously, for Nazanin and Richard and their family

for finally being reunited. But like she said, it is quite devastating for us because even with sharing in their happiness as a family, we, we were so devastated to, to find out. And we found out in the press as well, that there were only two on the plane and that, and that my father wasn't one of them. And, and that was really hard to stomach and it's with us every day really since and that's also why we've decided to to not carry on following the advice of the foreign office to to be discreet and and to go public with with his story to to hopefully shine a light on it yes because i, that's a big part of this is

that you put your trust into the officials in your country, you hope that they're doing all they can. And of course, this money has been paid, although the Foreign Office has never made the link between the two. Nazanin says that Boris Johnson did make that link to her in their meeting. And your dad was not on that flight. And it sounds like from what you're saying, you know, that was exactly what you were expecting to happen. You were expecting him to be freed. You were expecting him to be there. And it was very, very last minute that he was not. Last year, Foreign Secretary Rob actually proposed this furlough plan, which was for him to stay behind, but on a travel ban, but for

Nazanin and Nusha to come back. But we rejected that offer twice because we knew that if that were to take place, that he would inevitably end up back in prison. And they proved us right. But throughout this ordeal, we've had explicit assurances from Foreign Secretary Truss, Rob Hunt, even Prime Minister Johnson, that my father was going to be treated equal to all of the UK hostages that were being held. it's it's still it feels so fresh and so new um but but it is difficult because you you do put your trust there you you do find yourself leaning on them for for guidance um what what is the last contact you've had with the foreign secretary it's been just over two months since nazanin and Anousheh were freed. I haven't spoken to her directly.

We have two members of our family that we've kind of picked to lead on all of that. There's just so much that goes into everything that it's impossible for one person to do everything. But is she in contact with your family? The Foreign Office is in regular contact with our family, weekly and sometimes daily. So they've never not been in touch, which I think is what we found to be so surprising, to have had that regular line of communication and to not find out until the last minute and to find out from the press in a first instance that he wasn't coming home. And that is just, I mean, extraordinary. I don't want to not dwell on that. But I know you're also

now focused on now, you know, what is happening right now to try and get your father out? And with your understanding of the Foreign Office, it sounds like, and I was certainly looking at a recent interview that Liz Truss, the Foreign Secretary, gave to ITV on their morning programme on Good Morning Britain. She was making a lot of the fact that despite your father being a British citizen, he also holds American citizenship. She seemed to be talking a lot about him being an American. Yes. I mean, from where we were sitting, it felt like quite a massive misrepresentation of the reality of my father's situation. And they're the ones complicating the case with his citizenship. It's not a strong argument. He was born here. He's a British citizen. He was the only hostage of the three that was born here. And ultimately, having a naturalized U.S. citizenship shouldn't in any way diminish the value of one's natural

born citizenship or their British citizenship, period. And I suppose then, and it's again, a very important point to stress, he was born here and there's never been any question about his citizenship and his relationship to this country. Is your understanding now from the foreign office, I do have a statement here I'll share, but that it is still a fight that Britain is, if you like, waging to get him home? Or is this something where you feel it's gone to the American side? Are you now having to rely on Joe Biden's team? No, the UK always took the lead to secure my father's release from the outset. And our family agreed to include US support to the UK, given the technicalities of the IMS payment. So it's not, they're not out of the picture, but they're also, they're not leading, the UK and waiting and praying really for their help because it's been nine weeks now. And my father is still not out of the prison.

He's still, I mean, every day that passes, he's deteriorating. He's got health issues. He doesn't, obviously, he doesn't know everything that we're doing. But all he knows is he was left there and he's he's still sitting in prison I mean he's being held there. How old is your father now? 66. And you say he's deteriorating is you know in terms of the conditions and and what you know of of how he is what's going on there and are you able to talk to him uh very sporadically and never for for very long every once in a while my mom was able to connect us over a speakerphone so she'll

put two phones next to each other on speakers so we can kind of shout across your mom just to say again your mom is still in iran she she's on a travel ban still, but was also supposed to be lifted nine weeks ago. But that also hasn't happened. And she's still there. So but but she in a way is also his lighthouse of sorts, because it's her it's the only communication he has. And she's able to connect us to him sometimes. But he I mean, he's a dad, so he doesn't try to worry us. He wants to ask us how we are and tell us that he misses us and that he can't wait to see us. But you can tell when you

know someone so well, you can feel the weight they carry when they talk to you. So, and we know that he's had a couple kinds of cancer before he was detained and they had complications already before he went. And it required regular monitoring and treatment. But he's in prison, so we'd have no way of knowing what state any of his health issues are in. I'm so sorry for you and your family. I really am because, you know, on every level, but also that feeling that you must have had for thinking he was coming. And then that changed because I'm also very mindful of the fact, you know, you haven't seen your parents for a long time. Yeah, we haven't seen them since the autumn of 2017 and they were detained in January 2018. And we've been waiting and working ever since,

but we were kept behind the scenes and we agreed to be discreet and everything. And then it was really March when Richard and Nazanin reached out before their press conference, where they encouraged and invited us to be a part of their moment of celebration, but to still highlight that he'd been left behind and abandoned there. And we thought that we had to take the opportunity. And step into the spotlight at this moment. I mean, I know how important our conversation is to Nazanin and to Richard this morning

to make sure that we, you know, not just spoke to her, which was, of course, very important and impactful to hear in her own words what she has survived, but to make sure that, you know, there is still a glaring spotlight on those left behind, which I'm very sorry to say, of course, is your father in this instance. I did say I'd just share with you a statement we have from the Foreign Office. A spokesperson said Iran has failed to honour their commitment to releasing Mourad from prison on indefinite furlough.

Continuing his horrendous ordeal sends a clear message to the international community that Iran does not honour its commitments. We continue to urge the Iranian authorities at every opportunity to release him immediately. Roxanne, thank you very much for talking to me. Thank you for having me. I spoke to Morad Tabaz's elder daughter Roxanne there, Roxanne Tabaz, just before coming on the programme. Well, I did mention that towards the end of my interview with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, she was also at pains to thank all of those who had supported her and campaigned on her behalf during her time in Iran.

I know that many people have come down to support us when Richard was on hunger strike. They have been writing to their MPs and asking for help. They have been painting stones. They have been sending cards and stuff. But also all the politicians within the British politics who have been helping us and supporting us, all those who took our story personally.

I'm very, very grateful. When Nazanin was arrested in Iran back in April 2016, her husband Richard mounted a tireless campaign to free her, including twice going on hunger strike. And many joined him up and down the UK. And as you just heard there, Nazanin wanted to pay tribute to those people and in particular, the ordinary woman who supported her cause. Well, today I am joined by two of those women, a retired primary school teacher, Linda Grove, who's been actively campaigning on behalf of Nazanin since 2016, and Freya Papworth from the Women's Liberation Organisation, Philia, who organised a 24-hour fasting relay hunger strike.

A warm welcome to both of you. Linda, I thought I'd start with you. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. I know that you have heard our conversation. You've heard what Nazanin had to say about what happened. And also she wanted to thank people like you. I wonder what your reaction was to that, first of all. I think we're all so proud of Nazanin and Richard and the whole family the way they've had such dignity during this whole period that Nazanin has been in jail and it's just a minor thing which we as campaigners

have done to keep the story going. We've also been so supported by our local newspaper, The Hammond High, which at the time was the editor, Emily Banks, who organised a march to Downing Street. I should say, you live in the area of North London. Yes. You live nearby. And was that, because we're getting quite a few messages about Nazanin,

but also why other people have campaigned on behalf of others and what it is about their story that gets them in. And was it for you that she was a local woman? For me, and I think for many more, it was the fact that we're women, we're mothers and we're wives. And we just couldn't imagine what this family were going through. And that was what connected you to her story and you were about to say the local editor of the local paper organised a march to Downing Street early on. Yes. And did you go on that march? Yes and we presented a letter to Boris Johnson to request the release of Nazanin and we also had Tom Conti with us. Oh, the actor?

Yes. He's a local perhaps to the area as well. Right. Okay. So other people coming along, I suppose, those better known faces always help with publicity as well, don't they? Let me bring in Freya as well at this point. How did you get involved with some of the campaigning? Hi. Yeah. so I got involved. I've been watching the story like so many people up and down the country for years,

really did think she was going to come home when she was released initially from that first sentence. Couldn't believe the second sentence got applied and had been thinking, you know, what can what can I do? I'm just one person. I'm just a little old me. What can we do to actually affect any sort of change or show solidarity? And it was actually Margaret Owen who inspired us. So she continued Richard's hunger strike herself. Actually, I did have her on the programme. And she she's a very good speaker about why she was involved as well. Absolutely. Absolutely.

So I was listening. Philia, we have a podcast where we talk to interesting women and we interviewed her while she was on her hunger strike. And I was listening and I heard her say, we need more people, we need to pass on this baton. She said, you know, we need a relay of people doing this. And I thought, that's something we can do. We can do that.

Because there's concern as well about people's health, especially Margaret doing this and keeping going. um you know at first it was a thought well could you do a couple of weeks that's a really big thing to commit to um and then the idea of just a day fasting for a day it's such a small thing that anyone can do but it creates such a big wave of across even the globe even we had women from around the globe yeah absolutely from India just from America just people everywhere they really they really saw how easy and simple it was to do something that would would show solidarity and hopefully make make a difference and and for you I mean I suppose it's it's one of those things of course there's the the brute

reality of diplomacy there's the brute reality of diplomacy. There's the money that we've talked about. The Foreign Office haven't made that formal link. But I was very struck by Nazanin because she's had to learn a lot of this afterwards because she wasn't here. I was very struck by how she is so moved by it, how important your actions, both of your actions and other people who have done this, has meant to her. And it meant an enormous amount to Richard because, and you mentioned Richard's family as well, Linda, you know, his job became to keep her name in the news, in our minds, didn't it? Absolutely.

And this, we've just heard from Roxanne, the advice from the Foreign Office when you are terribly, unfortunately, in any sort of situation like this, is to do the opposite, isn't it? To be quiet and try and let the diplomats do their work. And here he was mounting. I mean, you know, I remember going to his apartment, to his flat to do an interview and it was just filled with placards and stones and all these things that people had done. What was the community like around the family? Well, people were gathering and painting stones and we also made a garden in front of the Royal Free Hospital so people were planting plants for Nazanin and we were putting up information to the story what was happening to Nazanin so passers-by could read it as well and keep her in their minds yeah and again at different times like Christmas time we'd have concerts and again we're lucky

where we live so we had contact with people in the media who could come and speak like Jim Broadbent and so forth and uh sounds like a good area for actors, this. You've got good access. Yeah, exactly. But these people were also moved by the plight and the story of Nazanin because at the end of the day, they're families and we could all identify with it. So we were very lucky to have Janet Sussman,

and the list goes on, Emma Thompson, who supported the campaign. How did you feel as someone who didn't know her, and then like everyone else, as someone who'd been campaigning though, how did you feel when you heard she was home, when she had been released? Absolutely joyous. And in fact, I didn't listen to the news properly. And I hopped in the car and drove to Heathrow Airport. No, you didn't. Yes. Thinking she was going to pop out there. I got to the inquiry desk and I just said,

which flight is Nazanin Radcliffe coming in on? You said that? Yes. Well, it was blank. Nobody knew a thing. Until a friend texted me and said, no, she's going to a military airport. So then I went home again.

Yes, until Oxfordshire. I was so excited, yes. Well, we did actually have a text from, I think it was Jude yesterday, who said she was about to complain because she lives near RAF Bryson Orton in Oxfordshire. She thought her roof was about to come off because this flight was coming so low over it.

And then she heard on the World Service that it was Nazanin. She thought, well, I'm not going to complain now. I'm extremely happy that she's home. But have you ever met her? No, I haven't. And that's not part of it for you, is it? No, it's not. It's the fact that, you know, we could identify with that family

for what they're going through. Losing your child, that's just dreadful. And the dignity of Richard, the way he campaigned. And I think for many people that came for the hunger strikes, people came from up and down the country, just to have their photograph taken with him and to say I'm thinking about you I'm supporting you and that gave him and the family courage to carry on and they knew that people were thinking about them we also organized for cards and letters to come to Richard Radcliffe the pavement the Iranian embassy I mean can I just pay tribute to our post service at the moment? Because, yes, I love it, doesn't he?

That people just, I mean, I'm not advising you do this necessarily, but it's a testament to the British public and determination that they've just put her name on it. And so I don't know where she lives, London, you know. And then it does reach her. And I didn't know that about Richard when he was outside the foreign office doing his hunger strike. Yes, we had sack loads.

Letters coming saying Richard Radcliffe to the pavement. It's just extraordinary. So let me pay tribute, as we all should, to our postal service. I'll ask you the same question, Freya. Where were you and how did you feel when you heard she was coming home? I was at home. I'd started work for the day and then I think I'd got a WhatsApp message. And honestly, I just couldn't believe it.

We had women signed up to fast up until the end of March 2025. And I'd been imagining telling some of these women, you don't need to fast anymore. To tell, gosh, over a thousand women, you don't need to do this. It was absolutely mind blowing. How did you feel to to hear some of what she had to say yesterday it was incredibly moving um i mean horrified what she went through no no one should go through that no woman should be separated from her child just you know breastfeeding her child and have her child used in that way against her no family

should be separated like that um i mean it's it's a tale of of of survival as much as anything else because especially for the first nine months you know being in solitary confinement and you know the light never being off and her being claustrophobic you know she talks about being blindfolded there was there was a lot that she she shared and I'm sure a lot she also can't share absolutely absolutely and I felt real listening to her it was just such a women across the globe for whatever reason are often put in these situations where male power and male dominance affects us so viscerally and even though they're worlds apart in stories as a survivor of male violence you just listen to that story and think you know i i understand i see you

and we stand with you well no she also she did talk about the fact that her life for the last six years had been controlled by male power and very much defined by that. But as I say, she wanted, as the conversation drew to a close, she really wanted to share her gratitude to the likes of people like you, to women like you. So thank you so much for coming on and talking to us this morning. Thank you. Linda Grove there and Freya Papworth from the women's liberation organization philia i did say many of you have been in touch just to give you a couple of those messages if i can janet says i just wanted to say how moved i was by the interview so dignified but so diplomatic

totally humbled by nazanine's strength of character during her six years of imprisonment and by the completely selfless decision to send her daughter back to England so she could go to school, learn English and reconnect with her dad, even though it was totally awful for Nazanin. Anne messaged to say Nazanin's resilience, fortitude and honesty was both humbling and inspirational. And Jenny says, I can't find the words really to describe what I feel about this interview. I can say that I'm still crying. I can thank Nazanin for the strength she's given me. I'm so sorry that the joy of her release has been marred by Murad Tabaz's continued detention and

that of all of the other detainees. Of course, we wanted to make sure you heard from a member of Murad's family. We heard from his daughter just a few moments ago. And Penny says, wonderful, just wonderful. Nazanin's bravery is awesome. Please send my love. What a journey. Thank you so much indeed. And I have to say, many of you also taking me up on my question about other people that you have connected to,

who are in the news, other people's stories that you followed. One just to mention here, Emma's message to say, excellent name, someone I've followed and rooted for is Dame Deborah James, Baobab as she's known. I'm sure many others will say the same. I found her strength and honesty, even at the end of life,

has helped me with my own cancer diagnosis and treatment. Keep those messages coming in, please. A very wonderful name to be able to mention. 84844 is the number that you need. Now, she's a woman who could be set to wield a lot of power and has unwittingly become a household name. I'm talking about the senior civil servant, Sue Gray, who was charged with investigating lockdown parties at number 10. And it has just been reported by the BBC that the report has been passed to the Prime Minister. Boris Johnson is expected to make a statement in the House of Commons later

and then hold a press conference. Well, what about the woman at the centre of this? BBC Radio 4's Profile programme spoke to Sue Gray's old boss at the Civil Service, Gus O'Donnell, who had this to say about her. If there's any one person in the Civil Service who were to write their memoirs, the ones of Sue Gray would be the most valuable and the most priceless and the most sensational. And I am extremely confident that such memoirs will never be written. Her secrets will go to the grave. Well, that report is certainly going to be known about and poured over in short order.

And someone smiling at that description about the discretion of Sue Gray is a former civil servant, Caroline Slowcock, the first woman private secretary at Number 10, to Margaret Thatcher, no less, and then John Major. She's the director of the think tank Civil Exchange. Good morning, Caroline then John Major. She's the director of the think tank Civil Exchange. Good morning, Caroline. Good morning. Sue Gray has become a bit of a household name, even if you only follow the news lightly.

People want to, of course, know what's in that report. We don't yet know. But just to give us a sense of her and how she is in her work what would you say well um what i hear from people who work closely with her and know her is that she's um she's very determined she's very thorough and i think she'll want to be getting right to the bottom of this issue um and she'll get her facts sort of firmly lined up in a row uh you know, I was worried that she would, you know, not want to implicate the prime minister. After all, she's a civil servant. She works for him.

You know, it's not her job to bring him down. But, you know, my friends tell me that if there is a woman to do this, then it might well be Sue Gray. What is it like, though, I suppose, to go from not being known? I know in those circles she will be known and she's obviously got a very good reputation with many who've worked with her. But it must be an unusual thing because it's not how it's usually done for someone's name, a civil servant's name, to have this kind of level of notoriety. And as you say, almost power over the most powerful politician in the land. Yeah, it's extraordinary, isn't it? Because civil servants almost always are in the shadows. They

stand behind their ministers, supporting them, helping them to do a good job. They don't sort of step into the limelight in the way that it's happened here. And of course, it wasn't her who chose to do this. She was asked after Simon Case, who was undertaking this inquiry, was implicated and felt that he had to stand down. So there's a huge amount of pressure on her. And I think her reputation has become enormous, you know, and it's been built up by Boris Johnson and his various spokespeople and numerous interviews, you know, her independence, etc, etc.

I mean, her name has just been said again and again and again. I mean, do you think there's anything to say about the fact that she also this could be a sort of Lady Hale moment. You remember the head of the Supreme Court who confessed, you know, talking to a girl's school that she saw herself as a girly swat. A phrase that Boris Johnson used in a derogatory way about David Cameron, because if there ever was a man who doesn't do his homework, I'd say it was Boris Johnson. But Lady Hale and the Supreme Court caught Boris Johnson out in that very large piece of law-breaking, corrobing Parliament, and this could be another sort of Lady Hale moment. And I think what the Prime Minister set out to appoint her to do the job, and it would be, I think, really quite ironic if a woman with all those qualities to which she's famous, her thoroughness, the hard work, the determination, the sense of duty, actually nails him down in the way that others really have not. For example, Lord Guyte, who investigated the wallpaper scandal, if you recall.

Yes, about how refurbishments to the Downing Street flat had actually been paid for and the links to the Conservative Party. Of course, people can remind themselves at their leisure about the details of that. But as you say, your view of Boris Johnson, you say not doing his homework, not being a master of this. And yet, for instance, I mean, there's small details coming out at the moment. The BBC's new political editor, Chris Mason, my good colleague, he, for instance, he's saying

the report is 38 to 40 pages long, we still await the actual detail, of course, as Prime Minister's questions shortly at noon. And of course, you know, that will be part of the analysis, or at least how the different sides of the political divide talk about this. But you talk about what impact Sue Gray's report could have. And, you know, of course, there are those who think, well, we'll get the account and then nothing will happen. What do you say about that? Well, it's possible, isn't it? It lies in the hands of conservative MPs. That's the way our constitution works and possibly at a later stage, the Privileges Committee. But I think it's absolutely vital that note is taken of this because standards and integrity

really matter in public life. And if the prime minister not only breaks the rules that he sets, and these weren't just any rules, these were incredibly strong rules which affected everyone in this country. But it's not just about him breaking the rules. It's also about him lying to Parliament. Now, that's not something that's too great. It's not in her remit. No. Well, that's going to be that allegation as it's being put. If he did lie to Parliament, if he did mislead, which is against the rules, that's going to be tested, as you say, by a separate committee that's going to look at this after the Sue Gray report. But there will be, you know, the material that's going to be produced today will, you know, add grist to that mill. Yes. And I would just like to say, actually,

that as someone who worked for two prime ministers in number 10, I cannot believe that this could have happened under, you know, it just simply would not have happened. There'd be no question of it happening under the two prime ministers under which I served. And I suspect it wouldn't happen under any other person than Boris Johnson. You know, we'll find out more. But I think he set a culture. He is somebody who does not respect the rules. You know, you can see it in that visit to the hospital where he just couldn't keep his mask on, even though it was a requirement. You know, you can see it in the proroguing of Parliament. You know, he's always taken a rule breaker. And that's, you know, the public, of that 38 to 40 page document written by Sue Gray, the senior civil servant whose name many more people know now and having to get used to that.

Caroline Slowcock, a former civil servant, first woman private secretary at number 10 to both then Margaret Thatcher and John Major. Thank you very much for your take there. Now, something else completely away from politics, perhaps a bit of culture and music for you, because I've just been joined in the studio by someone who's taken on the role of a lifetime, Eliza Doolittle in My Fair Lady, no less. Amara Okereke, 25 years old, dubbed the new face of British theatre, has been performing at the Coliseum in London to rave reviews. I mean, you're not meant to read all the reviews, Amara, because then you also have to read the bad ones. But I'm very happy that we're

together in the studio this morning. And you're also going to sing for us. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. How is it going? It's going really well. I mean, it's just wonderful to be in such a fantastic theatre and see it filled with people, especially considering the last couple of years, it's been sort of a ghost town. It's been amazing to be able to share that feeling with everybody again.

And of course, it's a familiar story, but it's also changed, this version. So it's more, we're sticking more true to what George Bernard Shaw had intended for the show to end with. It's more of a story about a woman with her own agency getting what she doing, what she needs to do and getting what she wants and finding a way to, you know, fill up the gulf that separates people if whether it's class whether it's sex whether it's race um yeah and we're we're trying to keep the focus on that yes so there's more of a modern twist to it although ironically yeah going back to some of the original yes yeah we're really sticking with the original writing well it's, it sounds like it's doing very well.

Are you enjoying it? I'm loving it. Loving every minute of it. Is it right that you've watched this how many times, my fair lady? Oh, God, I don't even know, about 200 times probably. I love it. I love it. Looking at what's been written about you,

and I would love to go and see it. For instance, one reviewer says, as Eliza, Amara moves like a girl used to dodging blows and elbowing her own way through the world. Does she resonate with you? Yeah, honestly, I think she probably resonates with most women, I think. You have to elbow your way through the world to get through it sometimes. And, you know, whether that means taking lessons in elocution

and um learning how to become a lady um or if that means quite literally shoving your way through the crowds then um you've got to do what you've got to do and I think um it resonates but she also really inspires me Eliza is sort of the person that I would want to hope to become. Oh, that's lovely, especially as you're playing her. You spend a lot of time with her. Similar to Bridgerton on Netflix, this production's done colourblind casting, as it's called, meaning actors play any character regardless of race, nationality.

How important do you think that step is, especially when it comes to the stage? I mean, I think colorblind casting is is hugely important I mean it's all about representation you have to be able to see yourself to be able to relate to a story and the more you see yourself in a story the more you can enjoy it and the more layers you can add to it and I think um especially a show that's about London, about the UK, about Britain, and we're seeing a version of London that we recognise. We're in Covent Garden, basically, in the show. and watch this audience, this group of people that they recognise and then come outside and it's the same world that we recognise and we know being represented.

And it just adds extra layers to the story. I mean, it doesn't necessarily have to make the story about race or more about race than it was before, but it also means that if that is what resonates with you and that's how you perceive it, then that gives you that extra layer of something to be moved by or to be inspired by. As a black woman, do you think about that? Do you hope that that will happen for some people? I mean, yeah, I hope so. I mean, this story has always been about class and it's always been about the separation of people. I'm so happy, by the way, as a Mancunian to hear you say class.

Oh, thank you. Even though I actually don't always say it like that. a Mancunian, to hear you say class. Oh, thank you. Even though I actually don't always say it like that. So I've been told off by my northerners. Yeah, go on. Yeah, it's a story about class and how that separates us in our communities. And there's a fantastic line that Higgins says in the end of the first act.

He says, he talks about the process of what they're going through and what eliza's doing and he says it's filling up the deepest gulf that separates class from class and soul from soul and i think that that is something that we as a community as a society are always trying to do whether it's class whether it's race whether it's gender sexuality whatever it's gender, sexuality, whatever it might be, we're always finding ways to fill that gulf. And I think just adding more layers to that, it just means that it will connect with more people

without excluding the people it connected with in the original. Well, just talking about other things that, of course, that people campaign over and care about, you've compared Eliza Doolittle to Greta Thunberg the climate activist yeah so I I yeah so I I am I find them equally inspiring essentially it it's that idea of of it doesn't it doesn't matter how people perceive you Greta Thunberg might be seen as this young girl with a loud voice who should be in school or whatever.

And yet she's turning around saying, no, hang on, this is important. This is something, I have something to say and I'm going to say it loudly and I will be heard. And she doesn't deviate? No, not at all. She doesn't deviate. And that's what's so brilliant about eliza as well

well you know a big part of this also is of course singing and i did say you were bringing us a bit of music what are you going to perform i'm going to be singing wouldn't it be lovely uh from the first act as the second number in the show well i'm going to let you go over to the microphone so you because we're sitting together at the moment so I'll just let you get get over to there if I can so Amara Okarike 25 years old

now the face we're told the new face of British theatre you should be able to enjoy we felt her voice this morning

she's playing Eliza Doolittle in My Fair Lady and we are very grateful that she is going to perform for us now so I'll let you take it away. Well, that was just lovely.

Amara, thank you so much. And Geraint Owen on the piano, I should say as well. We have this wonderful grand piano that you heard just there as well. But thank you. That was so beautiful. And I must say that my fair lady is running at the Coliseum in London until the end of August. That was great, wasn't it? Just great. Last Thursday, nearly a week ago,

I asked you to tell me about the matriarchs in your life, you may remember, and we got some fabulous stories in. Didn't get a chance, as always, to do them justice, and we would like more. Over the summer, we're going to focus on matriarchs, the formidable women who came up in your mind when I said that word. And I'm interested in the good and the bad, what made them tick, what they achieved and why those matriarchs matter to you. So do get in touch, please.

You can do so on 84844, that's to text, social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. And I have to say, you have been doing that throughout the programme today. I've been asking about stories in the news and those individuals who you've taken to your hearts, a bit like some of the campaigners we've heard from this morning with regards to Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe. A few messages here that are right at the top of our text message and email console, which says, I felt for Jill Morrell. This is from Ruth, who emailed in for campaigning for John McCarthy when he was a hostage.

They are contemporaneous with my husband and me in terms of their age. His five years a hostage deprived them of their probable life together and happiness, while ours has continued over all of these years in strength. A message from Ali, who says, Anthony Nolan, I had hoped so much that I would be a match for that darling little boy, not for any personal glory or satisfaction, just in the hope of saving his life. I felt guilty crying when he died because how much worse did his family feel? They had to be so strong. And another one here from Leslie says, despite widespread derision of Mary Whitehouse, she did a lot of good stuff. And when my daughters were at Playgroup in the 70s, I organised a petition locally in

support of her national campaign to ban the use of children in pornography. And so it carries on. Thank you very much for those messages. But my next guest is no stranger to Woman's Hour. I've welcomed her to the programme several times, and she may too also fit the bill of someone who's been unwittingly forced into public life whose story and situation and experience you have taken to your heart. I'm always grateful when she comes on and I know that many of you are too because you have followed and are following her and her family's story and experience. I'm talking about Mina Smallman who has become a powerful advocate of victims and women's rights since the murder of her daughters,

Biba Henry and Nicole Smallman. The sisters were murdered in a London park in June 2020 by Daniel Hussain, who was jailed for a minimum of 35 years. Mina has also had to cope with the fact that two Metropolitan Police officers tasked with guarding the bodies of her daughters had taken photos of them and then shared them with friends and colleagues on WhatsApp. Dennis Jaffa and Jamie Lewis were each given jail sentences of two years, nine months after pleading guilty to misconduct in public office. But two weeks ago, the men were back in court to try and get their sentences reduced.

They failed. Mina Smallman, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for coming back on. Thank you for asking. You were following, of course, that particular development only recently with those two individuals. And I wanted to start by asking for your reaction to the fact that their attempt failed.

Relieved. Relieved. Because had they won the appeal, I think it wouldn't... It was a kind of... The reason they got a custodial sentence was unusual uh and and uh with their appeal being denied sent a signal no this is serious um and we're sending out a message we will not tolerate this kind of behaviour. And also, of course, what an appeal like that does to you as a family again,

I can't even imagine because you then know what they physical reaction to being in that court and coming forward. You know, we didn't have to attend. I just felt if we didn't, what would we be saying? You know, this matters. This really matters. I had palpitations in the trial. I could feel my my head pounding. I know my blood pressure had gone up. And at one point I thought, good heavens, am I going to have a heart attack here or a stroke we the stuff we had to listen to in particular uh Jaffa's defense um lawyer he said one of the defense in fact is they didn't have a defense but he he said know, let's just put this into context. All that Jaffa did, and that's what they do now, Milady, people just show people pictures of, look what I'm doing now. Look what I'm doing now. And that's all he was doing.

You know, he was just sharing with his friends and milady i have to tell you he he knew these friends so well they've been on holiday together and he knew that they would never send those pictures out ever so he was certain they were not going to go out but but of course the whole thing is that they took the photos in the first place and then went on to use them like that, even if that is the way of the world in terms of using WhatsApp. But trying to normalise it as, oh, I'm having coffee in Saint-Tropez, or look where I am, I'm fishing, to two dead bodies

and superimposing yourself in the picture. And the text messages say it all, really. I know that you also struggle with the day-to-day things since losing your girls and how hard it is. Then having that to re-traumatize you on top of it you know I'm so incredibly sorry and and I also know um we actually were talking a bit about this on Monday's program that you you live with chronic fatigue syndrome and we were talking in particular about ME but also that because of a recent

announcement by the health secretary but the energy that this also must take from you Mina it's um you know when you've got chronic fatigue syndrome I've got fibromyalgia as well um stress actually flares things up so today I'm I'm a bit slower in my speech and that's called brain fog. Like you can't quite, sometimes you're reaching for a word, but you can't get it. So, you know, it starts with usually a phone call. We need to inform you that the two police are going to appeal. So we knew that months ago, but you don't have a date.

And then no one will tell you what their appeal is. That's all kept hush-hush. And then you don't know. You've got to, and we don't live in London, so we have to pack a bag and have to get everything ready. Chris always drives. I can't I can't do trains or or buses or anything like that. You're talking about your husband, of course. But yeah, and I know that's so important for you to, of course, have each other and be able to get through this.

I'm also just mindful because we've spoken before. Sadly, I don't have all the time to go into all of this now. But you've talked a lot about who gets the attention, who doesn't get the attention. We're talking on the two year anniversary of George Floyd's killing. I know that you are also very aware of making sure your daughters are not defined by their killing, which is why, in part, you agreed to a documentary coming out on Sunday, the 29th of May. BBC Two, nine o'clock, called Two Daughters. Stacey Dooley has put that together. Why was that so important for you to do um well it was who because I was asked um would I do a documentary ever and I said the only person I'd do it with would be Stacey Dooley so I chose her and it was trying my best

to control the narrative of our story um and so you know we have a whatsapp group and the name of the whatsapp group is Nina's film crew and so they they always see me as the person who they were always checking I was okay they were you know I get involved because of the drama and everything. So, you know, I would know what I felt was a good shot. And I learn all about the microphones. I love that you've come from being, you know, working as part of the church and not least, of course, I should say, as a prison chaplain as part of your work to this. You're now part of the crew, in terms of making making telly yeah and in what I wanted was for people to remember the victims usually all the notoriety goes to the killer yeah because we're fascinated aren't we by what makes somebody do what they do. And I've watched programmes because I'm fascinated by human beings

and the way they behave. But when we actually became part of the story, Chris and I, we would have watched a programme and we would say, can you imagine what they're going through? And then suddenly you find yourself, you're now in that drama. Well, you have made this and it is very powerful by all accounts. I'm really looking forward to being able to see it. It's called Two Daughters on BBC Two, as I say, on Sunday, nine o'clock.

Mina Smallman, as ever, I'm very, very grateful. Thank you for talking to me. Thank you. Bless you. Take care. And you. And take care to all of you too. Thank you so much for your many messages. I'm actually off on holiday for a few days, so you'll be left in very capable hands. I'll miss you, but I'll be back. So all the best to you and yours and these messages we will keep going through and keep them coming into about matriarchs back tomorrow at 10 that's all for today's woman's hour thank you so much for your time

join us again for the next one hi i'm andy oliver and i'd like to tell you all about my radio 4 series one dish it's all about why you love that one dish the one that you could eat over and over again without ever getting tired of it. Each week, a very special guest will bring their favourite food to my table and will be unpacking the history of it. And food psychologist Kimberley Wilson is on hand to talk us through the science bit. What food reminds you of your child? What's your favourite place to go for dinner? What do you have for Sunday lunch?

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while you're eating breakfast, then this podcast is going to be right up your street. That's One Dish with me, Andy Oliver. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know... It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

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