Woman's Hour - Royal Navy Exclusive, Sarah Atherton MP, Tamsin Greig, singer-songwriter Lauren Mayberry

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

A female officer in the military says she was raped by a senior officer who was responsible in the Royal Navy for behaviours and values, including sexual consent. Speaking exclusively to Woman’s Hour, the female officer, who we are calling Joanna, reported the incident and her allegations to the military police who brought charges against the officer. However, the Services Prosecution Authority later said that they wouldn’t be taking the case forward to a military court. The female officer, who feels she has been forced to leave the military, says that her career has been left in ruins, whilst his continues. The Royal Navy has said “sexual assault and other sexual offences are not tolerated in the Royal Navy and anything which falls short of the highest of standards is totally unacceptable" and that since the alleged incident they "have made significant changes to how incidents are reported and investigated." Nuala hears from Joanna and the reaction from the Conservative MP and member of the Defence Select Committee, Sarah Atherton. Known for her dramatic and comedic roles on TV, stage and film the Olivier award-winning actor Tamsin Greig is currently performing in The Deep Blue Sea - Terence Rattigan’s 1950’s study of obsession and the destructive power of love - at the Theatre Royal Bath. She joins Nuala to explain the appeal of her latest role and why in 1952 legendary actor Peggy Ashcroft said she felt she had no clothes on when playing this part.The singer-songwriter Lauren Mayberry of CHVRCHES is taking part in a new BBC Radio 6 Music initiative Change The Tune. It is an on air, digital and social media initiative to raise awareness of the impact that online abuse has on the lives of artists. She joins Nuala to discuss her experience and to talk about embarking on a solo career.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley Studio Engineer: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Well, hello again and good to be back with you on Woman's Hour. Yes, I am your new Woman's Hour presenter and very much looking forward to spending more time with you. First off, thank you so much for the warm wishes and the welcome that many of you have given to our new line-up. I couldn't wish for a better partner than the formidable Anita Ranney.

And this, I know, is a programme that means a lot to many of you. It also means a lot to me. It was a highlight of my career to present Woman's Hour, covering for Emma Barnett when she was on maternity leave, and to have that privilege of presenting again on a permanent basis well it fills me with joy. Well with that said let us get down to business. On Saturday afternoon I was transported from

Sunny Bath to a dank London apartment and to the year 1950 by Tamsin Gregg's brilliant performance in the play The Deep Blue Sea. I'm going to be speaking to Tamsin in about half an hour. Also this hour, Lauren Mabry. She has launched a solo career following a successful decade with the band Churches. We'll hear what it's like to be a woman in the music industry and why she's calling out performative hypocrisy in her newest single. You can text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media.

We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. And for WhatsApp, that number is 03700 100 444. But first, a Woman's Hour exclusive. This morning, we will hear the testimony of a female officer in the military who says she was raped by a more senior officer in the Royal Navy, a man who is responsible for behaviours and values, including sexual consent. She says whilst he has been permitted to continue his career, hers has been ruined. We're going to hear from Joanna, as we're calling her, in a moment. But to remind you, this is the latest in a string of allegations made against the armed forces.

In 2022, Sophie Brooke, a female member of the armed forces, blew the whistle on sexual harassment in the submarine service. You may remember an interview here on Woman's Hour with Catherine, again, not her real name, who described the horrific sexual assault she had experienced over a 20-year career in the force. You may also have seen the news, this was late last year, that the Red Arrows, part of the Royal Air Force,

had been put in special measures after a report found predatory behaviour towards women. The First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Ben Key, launched an internal inquiry 18 months ago that was following allegations of inappropriate behaviour in the submarine service, which he called abhorrent. That inquiry has yet to issue a report and in recent weeks victims have said they fear it'll be a whitewash and that there will be no justice. We invited the First Sea Lord onto this programme but this was declined and we have been

sent a statement instead, which you'll hear shortly. Joanna's words are voiced by an actor. This is to protect her identity. And I should add that some listeners may find details of her story upsetting. I began by asking Joanna what it was like for her being a woman in the armed forces. So I think I probably, I should go back to when I first joined the military because as a woman you were and still are very much in the minority. There's more women now, but it's still nowhere near a balance of male, female, and particularly as a career, as an officer, there are far, far fewer women than men. And in my early 20s when I joined, I would almost guarantee every single woman in the

military will have been on the receiving end of unwanted and unpleasant behaviour. And it happened to me several times on a very minor level when I was younger. And the culture was, you laugh it off. You ignore it. You don't do anything about it. Yeah, I'm quite struck by you saying also you believe nearly every female member of the armed forces would have gone through some sort of sexual harassment, as you describe it. At the time of the incident that you've come to talk to us about today,

you were already feeling very vulnerable as a consequence of dealing with a very sad and tragic event at work, the details of which aren't appropriate to disclose here. So let's go back to that point. When this incident happened, I was quite senior in a senior role. There had been multiple very stressful events involving many people at that place. But there was one particular one that stood out. It was really significant and serious and affected a lot of us. And particularly one colleague who was more senior than me, he and I were quite closely involved in that event. And this person, he was a senior colleague,

someone I'd call one of the bosses who I knew and spoke to relatively frequently, professionally, because of our roles. But I didn't know him personally at all. The incident in question happened at a work social function in the wardroom. The office is mess and the wardroom is the place where we often live and socialise and eat lunch. And it's supposed to be your home and you're supposed to be safe there. And I wasn't. And so after these events that had happened within the unit that people were affected with, a lot of the traumatic events that you said, you had been flagged as vulnerable, I understand, at that point. Yeah, it had been noticed I wasn't in a great place

and possibly wasn't coping brilliantly. Okay, so the mass function is like a big event, a big social event, as you mentioned, where lots of members of the forces get together and a lot of alcohol can be consumed? Yeah, so I had a lot to drink with friends and colleagues and I said hello to this individual earlier in the evening when I said hello to a lot of other senior colleagues. And

then during the dinner, I remember he looked over and caught my eye and sort of mouthed to me, you okay? And I just sort of nodded and smiled across the room and that was it. And then the dinner went on till about, we were at the table drinking till about 11pm. And I would describe competitive drinking going on. So after the dinner, he approached me and he expressed some words of concern about me, which I thought was strange because I didn't really know him personally. And I was very drunk. I wasn't in a good mental state. And actually, I wanted to be having fun with my peers and friends there. But I remember thinking, oh, I've got to, you know, it's one of the bosses. I've got to talk to him. He's more senior than me. In the military,

there's an etiquette thing. And just to put it in context, he was a member of the Royal Navy, senior to you, as you mentioned, with responsibility for values and standards, including sexual consent. Yeah. So his rank and actually the position he was in, he was particularly responsible for the careers of others and the military discipline of others. He had the powers to apply military law to others. And he needed to have understood them very, very well himself, as well as obviously abide by them. Understood. So he approached me and it seemed like he was being a concerned boss for a

chat. I talked to him and we had a conversation particularly about the stressful incident and about work stresses in general. And at that point I was talking to him. I realised I was very drunk and I couldn't actually tell you what I said, to be honest. I don't remember the topics of conversation. And from then, there are blanks through that evening, bits I remember, bits I don't. And I've sort of pieced together over time. And that night, however much detail you are comfortable going into, you allege that a rape occurred. It did. So after the conversation, we sort of went our separate ways within the party that was carrying on.

And I spoke to lots of other people. And at the end of the night, it was the early hours of the morning by this time. I don't really recall how, but it ended up that he led me away from the party and I was trying to find my room and go to bed. And somehow I ended up with him going back to his cabin, his room for a drink. I vaguely remember him saying, I'm over there and come and have a drink. And I don't remember if I agreed or not, but I then remember being in this room with him and him pouring us two glasses of alcohol. And I remember drinking a bit of it.

And I remember a couple of details like stumbling as I was walking next to him and him sort of catching me. Essentially, he was half carrying me too and then after we had this alcohol I next remember being on the floor and him on top of me and then I next remember being in a bed with him on top of me and I think we were both naked by that point but I had no idea how that happened or when and I I now I suspect as strongly as I can that he removed my clothes because the next morning the way they were strewn around the room it was quite obvious to me I sort of I was going in and

out of consciousness I remembered at a later point that he was having sex with me and that's how I described it to the police. And they said to me, can you be really specific? You know, use whatever words you need. And I said the words, yep, penis in vagina. That's what, that's what that was. That is rape. Yeah. The other act was a sexual assault in legal terms. And there was a later rape. So I sort of, I use the words rape and sexual assault because they are separate things. I didn't know when or how long or, and I certainly not consented. There had been no conversation. And then I remember finally, he got off me and then I passed out again. And I think that was essentially the end of the night.

And we both passed out. It's very traumatic. I just want to acknowledge, you know. It happened and I've spoken about it a fair bit. Initially to the police. And some of the things that happened are horrific, but I don't have any shame because it's not my shame. I just want to acknowledge, you know, I'm sorry you had to go through that, to be frank. Yeah, thanks. Nobody should have to go through that.

And I sort of live with it every day. So talking about it, it doesn't make it any worse necessarily. I'm probably upset now because you're being nice about it, because I haven't always experienced that. And actually these things I did not do. Like I said, it's not my shame. And it's incredibly difficult to talk about it. But I think the fact that it's not talked about and on this level is why it's like a dirty little secret. I think with this stuff in general, but within the military particularly, because there's a lot of awareness about it, but I don't think they want to admit that it happens so often, particularly between, I think both me and him are demographics as people who are a bit older,

you know, professionals, both commissioned officers, you know. Let's talk about the next morning, Joanna. You tried to report it. So the next morning I had a meeting with a senior officer that I'd sort of been doing, who'd been supporting me through recent events. And I tried to tell her what had gone on, but I wasn't able to even get to the story because she was, she got cross with me.

She was dismissive. She could see that I was under the influence slash hungover and she got annoyed and I clammed up and couldn't talk to her. I couldn't trust her then. The next person I spoke to was my sort of immediate workplace boss. I just went to see him and he took one look at me and went, do you need a cup of tea? Are you okay?

And I talked to him a bit and I said to him, I was sexually assaulted last night. Those are the words I said. And he was horrified and said, do you want to go to the doctor? And do you want to go to the SARC, the Sexual Assault Referral Centre? And I didn't really take this in. I was still under the influence and I didn't really know what a SARC was at the time. And he was nice and he was concerned. And I just said, no, I'm okay. No, I don't want to talk to anyone. No, I don't want to go to the doctors. And then I left. And he, he should not have let me leave the room in the state I was in. I was sort of left. I got home that night and I, I, I thought, I cannot tell anyone this I've tried to tell a couple of people

this hasn't gone well no one will believe me because of who he was and what his rank was I just was I was determined to bury it You know, what you're bringing up there, Joanna there might be, you know, we've heard this before, there might be some people listening that ask whether drunk sex can cause regret or remorse

that could lead to possible false rape allegations. And I'd like to hear your response to that. Yeah, I'm sure it can. And, you know, I'm aware of false rape allegations that have been made and reported in the press. I've done a lot of research. And I've tried to work within the military on this topic. And the numbers are so small. It's a tiny percentage. And it's a terrible thing to falsely accuse somebody of anything, including rape. And I have huge sympathy with anyone who's been falsely accused and drunken sex. As you say, if sex is consensual and drunken, it's still consensual, I think.

This incident with me was not consensual because I did not know what was going on. I was not able to consent and I did not consent. And that is rape. That is a crime. He also made up a lot of details to embellish his story that I was an active and willing participant, which are not true. And I've thought about this a lot. And I thought he was very drunk as well the law and military rules say that is not an acceptable defense but he was very drunk and I thought did he think it was okay did he think I actually wanted to have sex with him was he just mistaken about consent and it was particularly the rank he is and the training I know he's had. There's a great poster which shows a man sitting on the edge of a bed and a woman asleep behind

him. And it says something like, she doesn't have to say no, you need to hear her say yes. And then it's sort of consent on the bottom. Let me turn, I know you reported it, the military police found three charges. What were they exactly? Two counts of rape and one of sexual assault by penetration. And it went to the Service Prosecution Authority, so the SPA as it's also called. That is the military's version of the Crown Prosecution Service. So they decide whether to move ahead and press charges.

What was that experience like for you, Joanna? So it's quite rare. I mean, it's quite unusual for things to get that far. They decided not to take it forward, not to go to court, which in the military would be a court-martial. Initially, they sent me a really terribly worded, really bad letter, and they said they basically don't think there's enough concrete evidence. You know, there wasn't a witness that saw that thing happen,

and obviously I didn't have any evidence. He admitted that sex had happened, but they said basically they didn't think it was solid enough to stand up in court, you know, legal beyond all reasonable doubt, which I sort of get that. But the way they presented it, they said, although you've had a fair bit to drink, we don't think you'd had enough to really not know what was going on. And later on, it was like victim blaming. We've looked at some of the documents and I found the language like a fair bit to drink in a legal document somewhat surprising. Oh, it was absolutely unprofessional.

And I told that individual that when I was forced to have a meeting with him, which was traumatic in itself. With the SBA, the Service Prosecution Authority, you mentioned that they had this badly worded letter that was sent to you. You asked specifically for someone to speak to you about the outcome, not to get in touch in this way. Can you expand on that a little bit? I was told that they'd sit down and talk to me. I suspected otherwise because I know military processes, and they don't always go so well. And it took months as these things do. And you get

updates. And I knew a decision was coming at some point. And actually, there was one point where I was going on holiday. And I spoke to the police officer who'd been dealing with the logistics and said, I don't want to call when I'm on holiday or I don't want to get back to a letter, you know, when I'm away. Basically, don't talk to me about it this week. And he said, fine. Like they knew I was vulnerable. They knew I'd been suicidal. I said, you know, we need to talk about how you

tell me and when. And he said, yeah, great. And then on a Friday morning, I had an email from this police officer saying, oh, the prosecutor has asked for your contact details. And I thought, okay, right. Something's coming now. And it was a Friday morning before a bank holiday weekend. I was alone at home. I was still on sick leave from work. And I had no sort of welfare support person. They were away on leave. It was like the worst time you could have picked. And I, I just replied. I tried to ring him to say, no, don't send anything through. Couldn't get through. And then the next thing I got was an email, another email from the police officer just saying, oh, please see attached a letter from this prosecutor. He just sent it through. He just dropped this bomb. And, you know, I said to

people after, I said, that's the moment people harm themselves. You know, when they're on their own, when they've got no support, when literally someone delivers this bombshell on a Friday before a bank holiday weekend, and then leaves the office. The appeal also did not have the outcome that you wanted. You know, you've told us, obviously, through your experience, about some of the impact. And we've heard, you know, what this has had on you. But how would you describe it?

So it's ended my career. I've been medically discharged because of the mental health consequences of this. You know, it led me getting very close to attempting to take my life. I did not attempt that. And the only reason I didn't is because I'm a mother. I strongly believe that if I wasn't, I wouldn't be here today. It's had all sorts of physical, the physical effects of the assault itself didn't last very long. The mental side remains and that manifests physically when you've been through an extreme trauma. You feel it in your body in many, many ways.

I went through periods where I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep, I lost a dramatic amount of weight. I was a different person. I was a shell. And I've partially recovered some of that, but not fully. And I never will be the same person again.

And it's changed me me mentally, you know? It's changed what I can do. It's changed how I can live my life. I wasn't done with my family. I wanted to have another baby, and that has been rendered impossible by what's happened. It's affected my relationship with my husband. Obviously, people don't necessarily think about that, but it has.

I think it's generally the worst crime you can survive. Rape's up there with murder as a really serious crime, and you can't survive murder by definition. I'd have rather broken every bone in my body and gone through physical rehab than this. And I did not want to leave. I did not want my career to end. I planned to carry on till I was, you know, retirement age. Do you know if there's been consequences for him? So I've been told nothing by the Navy.

I've pushed and pushed and pushed and found out a fair bit. So unlike in civilian life, there are various rules and some military laws that don't apply to civilians. And what he's admitted to, so he has said that he had consensual sex with me, that as he's a senior officer and I'm junior to him that breaks several of our rules and the fact that he he is married and I'm married it's they have this funny rule that it damages military relationships it fails the social code of social conduct it's a breach of trust. And there's now a zero tolerance policy in place that says if you have even a consensual affair that both sides admit is consensual, and this is not one, and there's a disparity in rank, then that, that

fails this policy, and you'll be immediately discharged. And he has not been. He is still in service and he's still in the same rank. And basically, he might have been dealt with administratively, but I don't know that and no one will tell me. Essentially, he's been given a slap on the wrist. He hasn't been demoted in rank. It might have cost him a promotion. He could have been promoted ahead of this. It might have affected his career a little bit, but he is still in a job in the Royal Navy. He's still in the same rank. He has, whatever he's doing, he will have power and

influence over people and their careers and big strategic decisions and possibly large amounts of money. And he has shown himself to have the poorest judgment, yet he's still being allowed to carry on with that. And my career has ended and his carries on. So we put your allegations to the Royal Navy and they responded through a spokesperson saying sexual assault and other sexual offences are not tolerated in the Royal Navy. And anything which falls short of the highest standards is totally unacceptable. They said, we acknowledge that this incident will have had a significant impact to those involved. And since then, we've made significant changes to how incidents are reported and investigated. This includes providing specialist help to victims and witnesses

independent from the military chain of command. We encourage anyone who has experienced or witnessed any inexcusable behaviour to report it immediately. We should say your incident was reported and investigated before the changes came about, which involved establishing the Defence Serious Crime Command and Victim Witness Care Unit to provide specialist support to victims and witnesses, and making the system independent of the chain of command. Joanna, do you have faith in this new system? Not overall, no. I mean, I would also encourage anyone to come forward. I don't regret speaking to the police. I wish I'd done it earlier.

I wish I'd been encouraged and supported to do it earlier. And actually, the DSCU themselves were amazing, the investigators, but the system is not set up to allow them to act or to protect or support people. There's a lot of stuff on paper and lots of box ticking, but you can't actually get the right support because I have tried. And since the DSCU and the Associated Victims Supports came in, I've tried to access it and it's not sufficient. And the DSCU, the Defence Serious Crime Unit, is the body which investigates alleged crimes and criminal activity involving personnel subject to service law. It was introduced after this alleged incident took place. Can I ask you though, those words from the Royal Navy, they don't give you solace? They don't. They ring hollow

because even though this was reported before those changes, what he did was still illegal and it still broke the service test. It still broke the standards of behaviour and conduct expected from anyone, let alone someone of his rank. Let me ask you, Joanna, you know, you talked about trying to move forward. Do you feel you can? I don't know whether speaking about it in this particular forum is part of that. I've lost the career that I loved. I'm, yeah, I'm still able to work. I have secured new employment, but part-time, because I'm not well enough to work full time. My salary is more than halved. I've lost a huge amount of pension. But that's, you know, that's not as important as being as well as I can be.

I will, I will carry on. But I'll never, it will never have not happened. Joanna, as we're calling her, sharing her story there, thanks very much to her. And if you have been affected by anything you've heard in that interview, please visit BBC Action Line where you'll find sources of support. Well, earlier this morning, I got reaction from the Conservative MP Sarah Atherton, a former member of the Armed Forces who sits on the Defence Select Committee.

In 2021, you might remember, she led a landmark review into women's experiences in the Armed Forces who sits on the Defence Select Committee. In 2021, you might remember, she led a landmark review into women's experiences in the Armed Forces. I began by asking her for her reaction to Joanna's story. Well, I'm saddened to hear yet another account of mistreatment in the military of a servicewoman.

I'm sad, but I'm not surprised. And I hope Joanna is receiving the support that she may need. I've spent the last four and a half years raising the profile of servicewomen and veterans and since I chaired the Defence Select Committee's inquiry into the lived experiences of servicewomen and veterans this was a groundbreaking inquiry. It was a shocking expose which rocked the foundations of the MOD, but we made 50 recommendations. And to be fair, the MOD have implemented most of them to some extent, issues like female health policies, uniform, protective equipment, wraparound childcare.

But in my opinion, they've failed to address the grittier issues around sexual assault and bullying and harassment. So these remain and this is yet another account that reinforces that. And so this story, I suppose, is really sitting in the context of the review that you conducted almost three years ago that you mentioned. I want to get into some of the gritty, as you described, details. There are two aspects here with Joanna's story. Firstly, two counts of alleged rape, a very serious crime and one that is notoriously difficult to get convictions for, particularly when it's the word of one person against another. But secondly, the alleged perpetrator approached Joanna by

acknowledging she was vulnerable, mouthing, are you OK? And he does admit that sexual activity took place. So we have a more senior officer to Joanna who has admitted having sex with a subordinate. He knew she was vulnerable and also drunk. What, in your view, should have happened regarding those two separate elements? So what I repeatedly hear is abuse of power in the military, a breach of trust, a duty of care that's neglected.

You know, if someone is incapacitated and alcohol appears in most of the cases I hear, and actually I get into my office at least one case a week from servicewomen and veterans around this issue. So it is a topic that is not going away. And servicewomen now feel more empowered and veterans feel more empowered to speak about it. But, you know, this person, this senior officer, has a responsibility, and it's incumbent on him to have protected her, not exploit her, especially when it's a senior officer involved with personnel and is a member of a professional armed forces, which has British values of fairness, equality and justice. I know it's very difficult to have a conviction when it's one word against another.

But, you know, these are not the standards we expect from a professional military. And having read the transcript from Joanna, he looks very predatory. And this is not what we want in our military. Because also we are looking at this now in the context of a zero tolerance policy that was introduced since 2022 to great fanfare by the first sea lord, Admiral Sir Ben Key, in the wake of allegations of sexual harassment and abuse on board the UK's nuclear armed submarines made by whistleblower Sophie Brooke. Then he was emphatic that, and I quote, sexual assault and harassment have no place anywhere in the Royal Navy, unquote. And he went on to say the presumption of discharge would be followed from the service for anyone found engaging in such behaviour. Joanna doesn't think that the policy is working. This policy was introduced on the back of the Defence Committee, my inquiry.

And I have no doubt that service chiefs, ministers and civil servants at the MOD think they are doing the right thing. But there's a disconnect between what they think is happening and what is actually happening on the ground. And the zero tolerance policy is an exact example of that. So it stipulates that if it's found that there has been unacceptable sexual behaviour, whether that meets a criminal threshold or not, which is the case in Joanna's case, then there is a presumption of discharge. And you're absolutely right. When I heard about the zero tolerance policy, and it was under the Secretary of State Ben Wallace at the time it was quite clear that's exactly what it should be but having looked at evidence over the last three years or two years since this policy has been introduced very few if any service personnel

have been discharged and then we find actually this can be overridden in exceptional circumstances and what's happened is the mod defense is using exceptional circumstances now as a norm what what is an exceptional circumstance well for example uh the one in the jsp policy actually the example given there says if it's a young cadet or a young soldier talking about sex in a classroom with other young soldiers, then he is taken or she is taken to one side and explained that's unacceptable. That is an exceptional circumstance. And I don't think any of us have a problem with that when it's trainees or senior officers exploiting junior ranks.

And of course, it can be senior too, because there's the rank, the hierarchy. Somebody can be senior to, because there's the rank, the hierarchy, somebody can be senior to somebody that they're involved with without being at the top level of the military but they would still be a subordinate as it is in this case. But the First Sea Lord said without fear or favour that there would be

a presumption of discharge. Do you think this person should still be in this post? No, no, I think he's let the military down, he's let himself down, he's certainly let Joanna down. He's a senior officer, he should not be in the post. Why do you think it's not working? I think for the zero tolerance policy is not working for a number of reasons. One, the military has a problem with personnel

recruitment and retention. These people that usually are perpetrators of these acts are senior male officers with 10, 15, 20 years of experience. And the military are saying, actually, we cannot afford to lose that level of expertise. You think that's what's behind it? I do yeah and the the victims are usually female lower ranks younger. Joanna told us that despite the changes because that have taken place

since her alleged incident that she doesn't have faith in the current system. We heard her say that the DSCU themselves, that's the unit that was investigating, were amazing, the investigators, but the system is not set up to allow them to act or to protect or support people. And she talked about box ticking, but that you can't actually get the right support.

But I think I'm hearing from you that you don't think things have changed enough to restore women's trust. No, so the Defence Serious Crimes Unit and the Victim Witness and Support Unit have been set up since this case. I've been to visit them. They're doing good work, but they are running hot.

They're overstretched and they need more resources. The Defence Serious Crimes Unit should look at every complaint of a sexual nature because of the capacity issues they have. Some of these cases are going back to the service police. Now, I know the service police aren't best placed to be dealing with this. So the system is new. You're absolutely right in your opening remarks. This is what the MOD say. You know, everything's fine now because we've got the Defence Seers Crimes Unit. And it is an improvement,

but it's not resolving the issue at all. I was struck by, when we began our conversation, that you said you had one case a week coming to you to do with alcohol and sexual harassment. Can I just get a clarification on that? Some are alcohol,

all are to do with sexual harassment? Can I just get a clarification on that? Some are alcohol, all are to do with sexual harassment, all are to do with the poor process that these women have been through whilst pursuing a complaint. Many then leave the service with medical discharges and mental health issues. One case a week. Because of the process. Joanna started by saying this was commonplace in the forces. I think you're corroborating that there. If other women listening have had experience of this, what do you think they should do?

It's very difficult because if they have left the military, a lot of them contact me with legacy issues, which you can no longer address because of the incident, but they can be signposted. There's a fantastic charity called Salute Her. It's the only child service

female specific charity. It's situated in the northeast and they help women get through the trauma of what they've been through. The Conservative MP, Sarah Atherton. And if you'd like to get in touch with us, maybe a personal experience,

do get in touch. Text is 84844. At BBC Women's Hour is the other. And many of you are getting in touch. Here's one. I'm listening to Women's Hour and I've had a similar experience with the military system of justice.

This ended my career too. The boys club approach is awful and there's nothing and no change in the culture. It blames women. No one cares. There should be an independent system of justice. The environment is awful, and if you don't fit in, the change of command will get you out regardless.

I have a few along those lines. Here's also another one. Is this woman really expecting sympathy from your listeners? On her own admission, she was blind, drunk, and effectively abdicated responsibility for her own well-being. And the next morning, when she was offered help, she declined it. In the circumstances, her evidence would never have stood up in court. So it's hardly surprising that no prosecution took place.

Please continue to get in touch 84844. Also, you might have seen across the headlines this morning about the birth trauma inquiry. It's set up to discover why some women have traumatic experiences in childbirth. It's calling for an overhaul of the UK's maternity and post natal care and calling for a new maternity commissioner. Maybe you have some thoughts on that. I want to hear

from you. What has been your birth experience? Positive or distressing? Would a maternity commissioner make a difference? What should that person be aware of? We're going to be following up on this story. You can text the programme again, I mention 84844 at BBC Woman's Hour, or indeed email us through our website. Now, my next guest on Woman's Hour is widely known for her dramatic roles, her comedic roles across TV, stage, film. Such a familiar face to so many of us in so many much-loved roles.

It could be Dr. Caroline Todd, for example, in Green Wing. It could be Beverly Lincoln in the British American sitcom Episodes. It could be Jackie Goodman in the Channel 4 sitcom Friday Night Dinner. And that's just a few that I'm mentioning. But now the Olivier Award-winning actor Tamsin Greig, is performing in the deep blue sea. This is Terence Rattigan's 1950s study of obsession and destructive and the destructive power of love. It's on at the Theatre Royal in Bath, apparently based on an ex lover of Mr. Rattigan, the actor Kenneth Morgan. And Tamsin joins me from the Theatre Royal in Bath.

Welcome to Woman's Hour. Oh, good morning and welcome to your new life. I am so happy to be here. There's nowhere else I'd rather be on a Monday morning. And thank you for joining me on it. Now, I spent the weekend when we get into how I spend my days. Monday mornings are here as well as Tuesdays and Wednesdays. But on Saturday, I was blown away

watching you perform Hester Collier. And I've read that you were blown away when you saw the play in the early days of your career. What do you remember of it? Well, thank you very much for that. And well done for travelling out of London on a Saturday.

It was gorgeous. Yeah, it was a lovely day. Too beautiful to be in a theatre. Anyhow, yeah, I went to see a production of Deep Blue Sea starring Penelope Wilton back in the 90s. I think about 95, but it started at the Almeida and then transferred into the West End. And I saw it there and was utterly gobsmacked

by her performance, by the play, which I know was sort of sidelined as being too well made, because it was, you know, at the beginning of all of the angry young men plays of the 50s and 60s. But I was just blown away by the beauty of the construction of the play and particularly the central performance of Penelope, which was so deep and authentic and raw that I felt like I'd been skinned. You know, I was in the audience. I can tell you, you skinned your audience on Saturday afternoon. They loved it. But we were all like, whoa, like we had just had just I don't know gone through something so gripping and compelling I did see that Peggy Ashcroft who first played that role of Hester

in 1952 said she felt like she had no clothes on when playing her do you feel that I mean we're in a different era now you know a lot of performance these days is more confessional and more appealing but I think what Rattigan does is that he gives you the top one tenth like an iceberg he shows you the the top tenth of a person and does it in beautiful irony and leaves the subtext for the actor to explore. So it's a kind of ongoing, new defying, and I've just made up a word there, of exposure of this woman. So I don't feel so much exposed by the story or the character, but by the ongoing

peeling back of the layers, as you do with every new audience yes yeah and that peeling back of the layers is a really good way of putting it because um you really have the three acts and each time we're kind of getting closer or we think we're going to get to know hester a little bit better maybe I should just briefly ask you as well, Tamsin, to give us an idea of the plot without any spoilers. The play starts in a shabby room in a sort of run-down boarding house in Labrador Grove and

there has been an escape of gas and other people who live in the house find a body which they think is dead. This is Hester Coyley, who has attempted to take her own life through gas poisoning and an overdose of drugs. She has previously left her very well-known, well-established barrister-turned-judge husband and gone off with a becoming alcoholic ex-RAF fighter pilot from the war. She's fallen madly in love with this younger man, left her husband and is now considering whether to stay alive

because he is threatening to leave her. We won't love her in the way that her passion requires. We'll get to love and lust in just a minute. But first, let's hear a clip of you as Hester when you see William, your estranged husband, played by Nicholas Farrell, for the first time after months apart. He believed you were abroad until he received a disturbing call from a neighbour. Are you all right? Quite all right. What happened?

How much did that boy tell you on the telephone? Enough to spare you the necessity of lying to me. I must be careful what I say. Attempted suicide is a crime, isn't it? Yes. And I'm speaking to a judge. You're speaking to your husband. Shall we say crise de nerf?

Nonsense. You're as sane a person as any in the world. Perhaps I've changed since I left you, Bill. No, I'd better not say that. Might give you an opportunity of saying I told you so. You misjudge me. Misjudge a judge. Isn't that Liz Majesty? Why didn't you let me know you were in London?

The last time I saw you, you said you never wanted to hear from me again. The last time I saw you, I didn't know what I was saying. How long have you been back from Canada? Oh, three or four months now. Freddie lost his job. That's to say, he gave it up. It wasn't a very good one, and neither of us liked Ottawa very much.

Why didn't you answer my letter? I never got a letter. Oh, didn't you? I addressed it to the aircraft firm in Ottawa and put, please forward. Oh. We left rather hurriedly, and I forgot to leave a forwarding address.

What did you say in the letter, Bill? Just that you could have your divorce if you still wanted it. So that gives us a little snapshot. But, you know, one quote, Tamsin, that struck me as almost a thread through the play is to love with one's eyes open sometimes makes life very difficult. That theme of love and lust and relationships um talk me through that a little bit there's a character uh called dr well mr miller who also in the boarding house who has been struck off from the medical register and has a slight

german accent and you find out out through the course of the play that he has been in the UK, in Britain since 1938, and has spoken nothing but English, apart from a year in the Isle of Man, which a lot of people find funny, because they think that you don't speak English in the Isle of Man. But actually what it was is that he would have been imprisoned during the war as a German refugee.

But he is a doctor who's been struck off and you never quite find out why he's been struck. It's just hinted at. But he, as a kind of outsider, is the one that Hester finds a kinship with. She talks about her having a fellow feeling with him as one who's been rejected from moralistic society. And he's the one who speaks these words of piercing truth and insight into her breaking heart. Because there is also an aspect of Hester, though she's vivacious, intelligent, really quick-witted,

like we hear a little in that clip there. But there's also a cloak of shame on her, which I just found, I suppose this is Woman's Hour as well. I'm actually going to be speaking to my next guest, Lauren Mayberry, who has a song called Shame Out, who's just come into the studio. But it is interesting that it's often tied up with female characters. It's so interesting. Her husband, who is this barrister and judge, who is always questioning her, always trying to understand her, but never really getting to the heart of that. And he says, well, what was it? What were these feelings that made you do this terrible act? And she says, anger, hatred and shame about equal parts, I think.

He says anger at Paige, her lover. She says, yes, hatred of parts, I think. He says anger at Paige, her lover. She says, yes. Hatred of myself, of course. And then she continues, shame at being alive. And she lives with shame like a dressing gown. It kind of encompasses her. And she has agreed to be ashamed. So at the very end, Miller is the one who says to her, she says, if you can find me

one mitigating circumstance, one single reason why I should respect myself even a little. And Miller says, you must find that reason for yourself. And it's such a beautiful, very modern look at how women have had to go on this journey

of aligning themselves with self-respect rather than agreeing with the opinions of those around them. My goodness I can't tell you how much that segues into my next guest Lauren Mabry as well who I think has been thinking about some of those issues it's amazing that it's a play that's been around for 70 years that still has all these themes that just feel so um relevant today and really resonate i'm i can't really recommend it highly enough i know you've pressed night tonight i know it's going to be glowing reviews tell me about your next project though because you are not one to sit on your laurels well as well as learning this quite difficult, very precise play, and the director, Lindsay Posen, has been so precise with every single syllable, thankfully, I've also been learning to play the bass guitar. I saw one behind you. I'm speaking to you on video. I am doing the next Sally Wainwright project for the BBC called Riot Women about a group of five women of a certain age who form a punk band as a fundraiser and sing very angry songs about the menopause.

Listen, we're going to chat again soon. I will let people know the Deep Blue Sea is on at the Theatre Royal in Bath until the 1st of June. Get there if you can. Tamsin Greig, thanks so much for spending some of your day in between practice sessions and in between the actual show with us here on Woman's Hour. Thank you. Thanks to all of you getting in touch, 84844. I see another that has come in speaking about the military.

It talks about a girlfriend of mine years ago was in the RAF junior rank. An army captain tried to rape her in her room. She fought him off. It was a social function on the block. She didn't bother reporting as it was, in inverted commas, normal. And the rank made her feel like nothing would happen.

8-4, 8-4-4, do get in touch. Right, well today as part of the BBC's mental well-being season, BBC Radio 6 Music has launched Change the Tune. So this is an on-air, it's digital, it's a social media initiative to raise awareness of the impact that online abuse has on the lives

of artists. And as part of this, 6 Music is talking to musicians and presenters about their experiences of online abuse and will also set out its own clear codes of conduct and a new means of reporting comments of concern on its own clear codes of conduct and a new means of reporting comments of concern on its own social media platforms. One of the musicians who's been sharing their experiences is the singer-songwriter Lauren Mabry, frontwoman of the band Churches and about to

release a solo album as well. She made a documentary for Six Music called I Change Shapes. I hope. Let's just dive in. Obviously called Change Shapes, but you also say it's exhausting trying so hard all the time. Performative hypocrisy took over my mind. Explain a little. That line was actually the line that the whole song was based off. I had that written down in a notebook, the performative hypocrisy line.

I was probably being a bit mean to myself that day, but I definitely had been feeling like a lot of what is presented as part of the church's universe didn't feel that authentic to me sometimes I think um we've been very lucky that we've always been given a platform to talk about uh feminism and gender and inequality and those things but that then implies that my life is full of equality and full of wonderful opportunities. And sometimes I'll be playing a show and kind of my head was in two places because I wouldn't know that I dealt with a lot of stuff today that probably a lot of the fans wouldn't have enjoyed. And like what? I think I have to be careful how I politically discuss it I just think that I don't live in the feminist utopia

that people think I do a lot of the time necessarily and I think sometimes especially in like a media sense or you know people I don't know on a day-to-day basis I think having presented it as that gets people's backs up in a lot of ways so they come in to me in a more antagonistic manner than they would if they knew

me as an actual person rather than the media construct yes like i've heard you say before that you sometimes feel like you're leaving leading a double life the outer and the inner you yeah i think so and i think that's important to have that separation to a degree but how do you keep those two things feeling authentic and interconnected somehow but far enough away from your normal self that you don't lose your mind your documentary is really interesting it's beautiful as well actually watching and people can catch it on iplayer but you know the levels of abuse that you were exposed to online was shocking um do you feel you're able to move past it is it still in that same do you feel still in

the same spot of not being able to turn it off because I saw you know you were reading them in between gigs and going about your business and it felt I felt reading about you that abusive comments were often there in the ether around you? I think now we're lucky enough, basically, we're lucky enough that the band has enough money that we can pay for a social media company. And I think that that is the part of the conversation that is very privileged, which I don't want to leave out of it. The reason I was doing all that in the early days is because the band didn't have any money. And the person that was the youngest and the most media literate, because I worked in it, was the person that was the youngest and the most like media literate because i worked in it was the person that was doing the promotion and now i know enough to not do that if i see certain things i'm sure it will still make me feel a certain way but i just know to try as much as

possible to not see those things um and if anything the thing that i'm kind of desensitized to a lot of that now just from repetitive things so so what advice would you give to a young woman starting out in the industry um i think i wish that i'd had more time and space to focus on my artistry rather than having to be in charge of that i think um the part about being a woman in the music industry, do you mean? As opposed to just being the artist? Yeah, I think that the conversations around that took up and continue to take up so much oxygen. And that would really stress me out because I felt like I was kind of a...

And that is a huge part of your job, obviously, is doing promotion. And there are many things that come along with that. And I'm not complaining about that at all. But sometimes I'm like, oh like oh man it would be nice to talk about the art once in a while and the only thing I can say is that I don't know how you change any of those conversations the only thing that you can do is really double down on investing in yourself and your work and what you're making and yeah. I read that you said once that you wondered how your brain would have developed if you'd spent more time around women at a formative time, say around the end of high school. This is woman's hour. In 30 seconds, you know, it's an interesting concept, isn't it?

Yeah, I think so much of that time period, I was in bands with very well-intentioned boys and then well-intentioned men. But a lot of the time I have spent explaining things, explaining why this is bad and why this is hurtful, and then they can empathise. Whereas now in my session band, there are women and non-binary people who already know that because they live in that world. So the extra teaching part doesn't have to happen, which is nice. So you're creating it, Lauren Maybury.

Her documentary, I Change Shapes, is on iPlayer now and her album will be out later this year. Thanks so much for joining me on Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.