Woman's Hour - Ruby Wax, Abortion in Ireland, Jo Hansford MBE and Comedian Zoe Lyons

Episode Date: April 29, 2023

What happens when a woman famous for talking to people, and for her razor sharp wit, is left stranded on a desert island with just herself and a hermit crab for company? Author, comedian, broadcaster and mental health campaigner Ruby Wax decided to spend 10 days completely cut off from the modern world and other humans, and you can see the results on Channel 5 in Ruby Wax : Cast Away. She joins Anita to discuss what it was like being alone on an uninhabited island near Madagascar. In 2018 the people of Ireland voted to repeal the 8th amendment and grant women access to safe and free abortions up to 12 weeks into pregnancy. Ireland was promised ‘excellent’ abortion services but what is the reality 5 years on? On Wednesday, an independent review of abortion services was released that proposed 10 major changes to legislation. Anita is joined by Dr Deirdre Duffy, a Senior Lecturer in Sociology at Lancaster University who was involved in putting together the evidence base for the review.Currently celebrating her 30th year in business, the celebrity colourist Jo Hansford MBE has been described as the “best tinter on the planet”. She started off cutting hair in her parents’ front room and is now one of the most famous female names in the business with two salons, her own range of products, and clients who’ve included Elizabeth Hurley, Angelina Jolie and Richard Burton, not to mention she is the woman in charge of the Queen Consort’s crowning glory! Jo spoke to Nuala about her career, passion for colour - and the upcoming coronation.Zoe Lyons is known for being funny Radio 4 comedy shows like The New Quiz and seen her on TV shows like Live at the Apollo and QI. She also hosts the BBC2 quiz show 'Lightning'. Over the last couple of years, she has kept herself busy by having (what she describes as) ‘a monumental midlife crisis’. It involved buying a sports car, splitting up with her wife and running a 100k ultra marathon…Along the way her hair also started to fall out. Thankfully Zoe has been able to see the funny side and she’s used the experience to write her stand up show ‘Bald Ambition’…which she is currently touring around the country. Zoe joins Nuala to discuss.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Hanna Ward Editor: Louise Corley

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, the programme where we gather some of the highlights from the week just gone and put them all together just for you. I'm Anita Rani and you're always welcome. Coming up, author, comedian, broadcaster and mental health campaigner Ruby Wax decided to spend ten days completely cut off from the modern world for Channel 5 in Ruby Wax Castaway. But how did she keep herself company?

You want to have some intimacy. So there was a hermit crab that I called Spartacus. And I honestly, I loved him. And I don't think he stayed as just one hermit crab. I think I named other ones Spartacus too. But at night, when I was alone, he would keep me company. Plus, she's described as the best tinter on the planet. Celebrity colourist Jo Hansford CBE tells us what she talks about

with her most famous client, Queen Consort Camilla. We both have a love of gardening, big-time gardening. She loves her garden and doesn't see it often enough, unfortunately. I love gardening as well. And our children are about the same age, so we talk about grandchildren and the holidays and what they're doing. And comedian Zoe Lyons discusses how her midlife crisis inspired her stand-up tour, Bald Ambition.

But first, what happens when a woman famous for talking to people and for her razor-sharp wit is left stranded on a desert island with just herself and a hermit crab for company. Author, comedian, broadcaster and mental health campaigner Ruby Wax decided to spend 10 days completely cut off from the modern world and other humans. And you can see the results on Channel 5 in Ruby Wax Cast Away. When I spoke to Ruby, I started by asking her why she wanted to drop the showbiz mask while she was all alone on an island somewhere near Madagascar. Well, as long as the big cameras are there, you can't help but do show business because

I'm so used to doing TV shows and you have to create a front, you know, a persona. Otherwise people go, well, who is she? You have to be a stereotype. So I created this kind of American smiley, sardonic, sometimes acidic personality. But when you just have a GoPro, a little camera, we're so used to doing selfies that you don't, I don't put on a big show. I'm just myself because they're teeny little cameras. And that's what they gave me. That was what's different about my show. And Joanna Lumley, 30 years ago, she always had a camera crew. I was falling out of a plane with no parachute. It was just these little cameras. So it became like a personal journey or a personal journal. Yeah, they do that. Explain that really well at

the beginning of the documentary in the first episode where they ask you a question and you respond by saying, do you want me to be funny? I'm paraphrasing. Do you want me to be funny or do you want me to tell you how I'm really feeling? And they say, really feeling, and that really sets it out. Okay. And you mentioned Joanna Lumley there because she went off and did something similar 30 years ago and you went to meet her to talk about her experience and for her to give you any advice? Was that useful? Totally useless. Completely useless.

I mean, I'm friends with her and we have a great relationship. But how to make a pair of shoes out of your bra was not helpful to me at all. And she had different challenges. I said my biggest concern was how do you go to the loo? Yeah. And her answer was something, a technique I would never use. So it wasn't helpful at all.

But I admire her bravery. What's the technique? What was the technique? I don't want to discuss it. Please. You should never know. We're in women's house. This is a safe space.

We talked about labiaplasty last week. Oh, okay. Well, you take your labia and you bury it pretty much. She used leaves, I think, and she didn't have to go evacuate her bowels or whatever you call it, because she was eating rice the whole time and things that would stop her going to the loo. I unfortunately got the runs because I hit a bank of mangoes and there was nothing else to eat and I overdid it. So, I did have the runs.

So what happened was a medic came over and gave me something while I was sleeping, a pill, and I never went to the loo again. So miracles do happen. Perfect. I am going to the loo now in case you were. Good, I was going to say, you're all right, back to normal now. It's stopped now, yeah. It's stopped. Excuse me, it's switched on now.

The pills stopped working. Excellent. That's good to know. Did you underestimate just how real this experience was going to be? Because in that first episode, there were times when I wanted to come and rescue you when you were being pelted by torrential rain and just looked terrified, absolutely terrified. Well, they didn't mention in my contract the word cyclone or sand flies. They left those two things out. So those came as shocks to me. And I had Joanna Lumley's book with me. I never read it, but that was my only entertainment. So at night in the 70 mile an hour wind blasts and the torrential rains, bugs would come into my mosquito netting.

They knew that there was a meeting in there. And I had the head thing on because I needed to know where I was going when I was going to the loo. So literally hordes of foreign bugs would meet in my tent. I was in a tent. It was a piece of tarp. And I'd take Joanna Longley's book and I'd open it and then I'd slam it shut and catch all the bugs. And it looked like a slaughterhouse. So it was useful. It was very useful. That's when she helped me. Now we know you're a mental health campaigner. You've been very open about having depression. And so your pills went with you to the island. They had to come with you. Yeah, they have to come with me. So the deal was they had to give me a protein drink in the morning because you can't, if you swallow pills on an empty stomach, you get really ill.

So that was the deal. And it was useful because I didn't if you swallow pills on an empty stomach you get really ill so that was the deal and it was it was useful because I didn't have to hunt for food though I did kill a crab at one point yeah tell us about that tell us about Spartacus no that you didn't I've never well I did not kill Spartacus no um because in case he hears this program uh my daughter said it I had to make friends on the island and I wasn't kidding kidding. Like, you want to have some intimacy. So there was a hermit crab that I called Spartacus. And I honestly, I loved him. And I don't think he stayed as just one hermit crab.

I think I named other ones Spartacus too. But at night when I was alone, he would keep me company. And then I built a Wilson, you know, Tom Hanks. Yeah, great film from the film Castaway. He was a football, wasn't he? It was a football. So I built out of rocks and coral and flip-flops that showed up on the island. I built Wilson and he was spectacular. I wasn't that interested in firewood. I was interested in building Wilson, which is an art piece in itself. And we really did have good talks. And at the end, when I had to leave Wilson, I did an art piece in itself. And we really did have good talks. And at the end,

when I had to leave Wilson, I did cry. Did you really? Yeah, I was so touched by Wilson. I would do things for Wilson. I related to him. He stayed with me because he was in the sand. Usually men walk out on me, but Wilson couldn't go anywhere. What was it like being away from your phone, from your emails, from all mod cons? I'm used to this. You know, that's why I thought it would be so interesting. I've done a 30 day silent retreat, but that was very organized and it was in a building and it was mindfulness. So that really was a solid rock. So silence is my happy place. I know that sounds strange, but when I'm quiet, I can really hear my thoughts. Once they get over yelling at me, then they become pretty creative. So I like the silence,

but I never did anything in nature. I mean, nature and I aren't very intimate. So that was what was interesting. I had nowhere to hide. There was no hotel to hunker in. It was just me and them. And I really did learn nature doesn't care what my attitude is. And so I hotel to hunker in. It was just me and them. And I really did learn nature doesn't care what my attitude is. And so I had to succumb to it in a way. I had to let it rule me. And then, of course, you see remarkable things. There was a Joanna never saw one and she wanted to, a giant sea turtle. And I watched it getting ready to lay its eggs. And you think, how does nature know how to do that? The right fin went in and dug deep and the left fin moved the stuff out. And you think nature really knows what it's doing.

How come we work so consciously that we have to do this? We have to answer our telephone. We really don't have a time where nature just takes over. Yeah, that was a beautiful moment watching you watch the turtle. And it just felt, actually, I felt like there was a connection between the two of you. It was a bizarre moment. Maybe I was just reading into it too much. Well, you get into it when time stops and goes slower. You can really watch a bug crossing the road. You really have focus. But I think you have focus. You have tremendous focus. You were dedicated to your 45 minute meditation every single day. I do have focus, but I still live in this culture, which is a little bit toxic.

So I get drawn to things like late night shopping. And I, you know, I'm only human. If that's a fingertip away, believe me, I'm up at three in the morning looking for that perfect shelf or the Chanel lipstick. I'm addicted. Yeah, talking about Chanel lipstick, you were quite worried about, and it was funny, it was very, very sweet seeing you with your family at the beginning and your kids being worried about you

having to take the makeup off and be there. I don't think my kids, my kids were worried for my survival. It was me that was worried. You were worried, you were worried. But you actually had a lot to say about aging and vanity in your pieces to camera on the island. Well, because I wasn't performing anymore, the idea of what did I look like started to occur to me.

And then you think, well, that's really who cares. And I thought whatever phase I'm in is totally irrelevant to my existence. I, you know, I really started to like myself. Whereas if I had a mirror, I might start passing judgment. When you're taken away from that, believe me, it's really liberating. You just said something that really moved me, actually. You said, I really started to like myself. I think there's loads of women that can relate. We're taught to hate ourselves. We're taught from a very young age to just start disliking so much about ourselves. So to have that epiphany as someone who's just turned 70.

What bothers me then bothers me now, but on that island, it didn't. So you're hitting a nerve with that one. It just happens to be. And you could tell I was so concerned about what did I look like. And yet on the island, I knew that was ridiculous. And yet I still feel it. You can't change in a week. I mean, it's a work in progress.

Can I tell you, you look beautiful. I'm not looking at you. You're just radiant. You're beautiful. You're funny. You're vivacious. You're Ruby Wax. You're Ruby Wax.

Well, when I tell people your age and you're the age I am, watch what happens. Fair enough. You'll have an internal spasm. But thank you. You said that you didn't want your phone back when you were on the island. How long did that last?

It lasted as long as I could charge it up. You see what I mean? But the point is, is you have the experience of it. Your mind, that nagging mind, it gives up. It's as if you were arm wrestling with it. And finally, it's exhausted because you're not giving it distractions. And that's what happened after a few days in nature as your mind goes, oh, I'm so tired of listening to your criticism and you're, oh, you're too fat, you're too whatever, you're doing a horrible job. It starts to get tired.

And you realize that's not the real you. That's the input maybe you had as you were growing up. The real you is something that's curious and that's funny, but I never hear it when I'm busy. So I loved it. I peeled it back. And then I was so upset when the camera crew showed up because they would ruin that. Suddenly one of the cameramen who's really good looking, he looks like Jon Hamm, comes up and he goes, hey, how was it? And I felt myself putting my muscles together to try and gather some wrinkles and put them back and pull them. And I wanted to go. It's great because that's what they wanted, but I didn't. I just stayed in my circle and I said, could you go away? Which is odd to do when you're doing a TV show. I just wanted to stay on my GoPros. Well, that's quite powerful. Yes, quite. Yes. But I think it's quite powerful to tell them to go away. Well, that's what happens when you let your mind finally, the critical part is defeated and the other part comes to the fore. Of course, I had to leave the island a few hours later, but I wanted to hold

on to that calm and that peace for really just a few more minutes. You've got a new book out next month. Yeah, it's called I'm Not As Well As I Thought I Was. And what does that mean? What's the title about? I think it tells you everything. That even though you do, for me, I do mindfulness and God help me if I didn't, is that I have depression, but I hadn't had it in 12 years. So the idea of the book, try to follow me on this one, when I pitched it was that during COVID, I realized without my distractions, nobody really cares that much. I'm not that important. And what was I giving the best years of my life to on a telephone, on an iPhone? So I thought, let's get a little deeper. And I think a lot of people do,

of all ages. I mean, they still work, but they want to know what's the point. I think everybody got an existentialist slap in their face. So I lined up all these journeys that would not change me. And I'll tell you, Castaway could have been one of them. But I did that in February. I had to hand in the book before that. But I did do the 30-day silent retreat. I did swim with migrating whales. That was for a sense of awe.

The other one was for peace. Then I went to live in a Christian monastery for faith. And then I tried to get people out of Afghanistan for compassion. But at the end of it, I ended up in a mental institution. Now, I can't say it's because I did those journeys. I did line them up a little too close to each other, and maybe I drained myself. I know this sounds terrible, but it did make a better book to be writing from a mental institution about these journeys where you were looking for meaning. I didn't find meaning because there was something

really wrong with me, which I don't find out until I'm in the mental institute, because they make me have a shrink. She plows down, locates something that's really quite traumatic that I was never aware of before. And how are you now? Oh, I'm okay. And that was, it was helpful to know. I haven't had therapy in 25 years. Well, it turns out there is something really that tripped me up, that really tripped me up. And I find that out throughout the book. Ruby Wax and her two-part series, Wax Castaway continues tomorrow at 9pm. It can also be streamed on My5. Now, in 2018, the people of Ireland voted to repeal the Eighth Amendment and grant women access to safe and free abortions up to 12 weeks into pregnancy.

Ireland was promised excellent abortion services, but what's the reality five years on? On Wednesday, an independent review of abortion services was released that proposed 10 major changes to legislation. To talk about this, I was joined by Dr Deirdre Duffy. She's a senior lecturer in sociology at Lancaster University and was involved in putting together the evidence base for the review. I began by asking her how different life is for women in Ireland now compared to five years ago. Unfortunately, despite the huge effort of committed providers who've done Trojan work, setting up a service in that environment is not easy. And it was a whole system change. It does depend where you live. So if you live in a rural

area, for example, you are very unlikely or it's very difficult to have local access and that's the kind of key point access is not just about the law it's about can you get to a GP and the the report which is available online just to give you a sense of some of the quotes it's it's a free a point of access But like one general provider said to us, it's not a free service if you have to pay 100 euros to get there. And some of the resolutions to those problems put forward, like telemedicine, so at home or self-managed abortion, where you don't have to go in to an office for two appointments.

Not everyone is able to have an abortion in their own home that's not an easy thing to do yeah and that raises the other point which is that of the 19 maternity hospitals in ireland only 11 offer access to surgical so inpatient services in the whole of ireland only 11 hospitals 11 of the maternity hospitals offer it. Now all hospitals and all clinicians faced with an emergency, a life or death scenario would obviously have to provide, but only 11. Why has that happened? It's five years and only 11 maternity hospitals offer the service when Ireland was promised excellent abortion services.

Health systems are strained. Ireland is experiencing a workforce crisis, so that's point one. promised excellent abortion services. Health systems are strained. Ireland is experiencing a workforce crisis, so that's point one. The other is that the push towards ensuring all of those 19 hospitals hasn't happened, unfortunately. The staff just aren't available. Now, that might not be due to conscientious objection. Actually, a major finding of this study was it's just simple workload capacity.

Not enough people, not enough staff, not enough money. Let's talk about the geographical inequalities that you brought up at the top. Some areas' services were untenable. What's going wrong in these areas? You have very small teams. So you're talking about one or two people in some counties holding up referral and provision for an entire pathway the contracts are given for a GP surgery so within that one contract you might have two to three GPs working in that say centre however we don't know that we actually don't know that's the number

of contracts so in others you might have you know 20 contracts in a county or 10 contracts but they might be one-to-one that might be one gp in one practice and we know from like in the uk in england and wales the gps sometimes work alone so the borders are are very problematic the southeast like this all has knock-on effects right so if you have somebody who is uh needs to go into hospital because they're at over 10 weeks gestation so they need to go into a hospital care asking them to come in from two counties away doesn't make it a nine to five another quote in the report is from a midwife coordinator said there's no point in me making a 9am appointment when somebody can't get there at nine o'clock in the morning but these are really practical recommendations and that's a

really I think a critical thing for us is it's highlighting that the issues aren't necessarily legal issues it was always access. What about women are we seeing them traveling abroad? Yes travel still happens and we have the data on travel and we are able to gather from the place that reported which is England to Wales some to Scotland and to the Netherlands. People at an earlier point, so if you find out you're pregnant and you decide to opt for an abortion and you're under nine weeks, that figure has dropped and there is a big tail end.

Most people are able to access under that. What we see is actually very little change and in some cases an increase. Now, it might be a small increase, but Ireland is a small country. In people who were over 10 to 12 weeks, who were over 13 weeks and certainly at 20 weeks over. So they would be seeking it

for a fetal anomaly but also maternal health reasons so that could be a mental health reason that could be somebody who's had a chronic condition that puts them at severe risk so these are people who potentially would be entitled but like in England and Wales abortion sits within the criminal law so if a doctor gets an interpretation wrong, they could face significant backlash. And that's resulting from our data in people feeling they can't make those judgments. And the net result is women are still traveling. Another issue raised in the report is conscientious objection. One of the findings is that women are being misled and misinformed by clinicians seeking to block treatment how should conscientious

objection be handled within the healthcare setting conscientious objection is something that most people including myself including research in terms of people have a right to exercise their conscience the issue is the management of it Ireland has regulations on that if you have a conscientious objection the code of ethics for medical practitioners says that you have to refer in a timely manner if you're a conscientious objector or you are a non-providing member of staff you still still have responsibilities in terms of education training knowing who to refer to, knowing those processes. What we are seeing is that conscientious objection is not always being well managed. People may not necessarily have engaged with training to know about what their legal responsibilities are.

And there's very little because of those staff crisis issues and because of how legislation is framed you can obstruct relatively easily and and the reports from from clinicians who who were spoken to in this study is that the chair's phrasing is that they act with impunity or they can act with impunity. So what do you have a recommendation around that? I think there needs to be a bigger conversation about how to manage the relationship between people who are not providing and who are providing and there needs to be a conversation about what are the limits of conscientious objection. So a hospital can't be a conscientious objector. You also need to address and our recommendation overall is you need to

address the number of staff available. Because one of the issues is which allows people to act with impunity. And again, this needs to be unpacked because we can't speak this for everyone in every setting. And that would be a doom and a disdain. Of course, but it was so ingrained in the culture for such a long time. People will still have that in their minds. It's interesting you mention that because in my previous published work with health providers who were there in 1967

when the law changed in England and Wales, they said the law had changed but not in people's heads. And I think that's the case. You still have that. So it takes a real culture shift and that does take time, but it also takes management. And it takes people being really clear so what

have the irish government said how likely are they going to take up the recommendations the government have said that they don't see it as acceptable that public hospitals so the fact that only 11 out of 19 as i said provide they don't see that as acceptable so there is going to be a program to increase that they've also said they're going to try and increase the workforce quite substantially, particularly in general provision to 6,000, which would be phenomenal. And just to put that into context, there's a shortfall of between 1,500 to 2,000 GPs in Ireland that has that workforce crisis, and there are only just over 400 contracts for provision. So increasing that number is what they've said.

Looking and seeing that actually obstruction through misleading information or not adhering to legal responsibilities is not acceptable. So they're the recommendation. Dr Deirdre Duffy there from Lancaster University. Still to come on the programme, we'll hear from comedian Zoe Lyons about turning 50 and what she calls her monumental midlife crisis. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week,

just head to BBC Sounds, search for Woman's Hour, and here's the best bit, it'll cost you nothing. Now currently celebrating her 30th year in business, the celebrity colourist Jo Hansford MBE has been described as the best tinter on the planet. She started off cutting hair in her parents' front room and is now one of the most famous female names in the business with two salons, her own range of products and clients who have included Elizabeth Hurley, Angelina Jolie

and Richard Burton. Not to mention she's the woman in charge of the Queen Consort's crowning glory. Well Jo spoke to Nuala about her career, passion for colour and the upcoming coronation. She began by talking about the important relationship between a hairdresser and their client. We're in a very privileged situation hairdressers because we have that confidence and we have the confidence to do for other people to make them look glamorous to make them feel good they feel that they can talk to us because it doesn't go anywhere what is said in the hairdresser's chair stays in the hairdresser's chair and I think you do build a very good relationship I've got clients that I've been doing for 30 40 years and it's a fabulous business to be

in and unfortunately years ago it used to be a question of well if you can't do anything else you can be a hairdresser I don't think it happens like that today because I think people know that if you are good you can actually take your business with you anywhere, travel the world, have your children, still work afterwards. It's a career for life. Let's get into some of the details of this amazing career that you have had. I mentioned Queen Consort Camilla, a client for 35 years. Of course, with the coronation coming up as well.

So it is really the crowning glory, shall we say, in more ways than one. Are you able to divulge what you're planning? Her colour now looks amazing. We've changed the colour over the years because obviously you change colour according to skin colour. I should know this at my age, but does our skin colour change over the years? Yes, your skin tone changes, even if you're not aware. So, I mean, obviously somebody who maybe was dark brown when they were 20 certainly shouldn't be dark brown when they're 60. Does everything need to go lighter?

Do you always need to go... It needs to go lighter. It doesn't necessarily need to go blonde, you know, and it needs to be a transition of being lighter, softer. That's with the haircut as well as the colour, but the colour is very important. You can't take it off. You can't take your hair off. You the colour is very important. You can't take it off. You can't take your hair off.

You can have a bad make-up, you take it off, but with your hair, it's stuck on your head whether you're naked or dressed or whatever. So the colour needs to be right. I read you're not a fan of grey. Is that true? No, I hate grey. Why? Oh, grey.

Because you don't need to be grey anymore because we have the best products in the world now that you can look beautiful and much younger, 10 years younger if you don't have grey hair. Unless you have the most beautiful, beautiful silver, silver white hair, which is very strong, very sharp haircut and you are a very glamorous person. But not a lot of people are that I think it's mumsy I think people look at you in a different way they talk to you in a different way they talk to you like you're an old person I have to throw this out to my listeners Jo you haven't got grey hair but I've got red hair and you know all the teasing that you get when you're younger I think the payback is when you're older that you don't go grey for a while in the

sense of you don't need to colour your hair no No. But I have to throw that out to our listeners to defend your grey hair because that is Jo's opinion. But I have to say, so many people colour their hair. I know a lot of people would agree with you as well. Do you feel it's easy to speak to your clients, whether they're queen consort or another, that it's time to change, like that darker colour isn't suiting you anymore yes because I think you build confidence it depends on your attitude of how each person is individual each person is treated exactly the same way whether you're royalty whether you're a superstar whether you're a housewife and the whole thing is about caring for that person as a person, not just the hair. You look at them, you talk to them. I've been involved with people for such a long time. And as it transpires, you do the same with

the hair and they have confidence in you and they know that you actually do care about what you're doing. Then it's easy. So, you know, you've had so many clients. I mentioned the Queen Consort, but I could say a kind of funny anecdote with Naomi Campbell. Oh, that was hysterical. When we first started the business, Sam McKnight, who we used to work a lot with, phoned me up and said, oh, Jo, I need Naomi's hair done. Can you sort something for me? So I said, yes, of course.

And I thought, oh, so exciting. And then suddenly this Rolls Royce drew up outside and the chauffeur came out with a box and he gave me the box and it was a fringe. It was like, seriously? And Sam said, oh, sorry, darling, I meant to say to you, can you just match the fringe to a hair colour, please? And I thought, OK, Sam, but we did it. You did it. Yes, we did it. So your job is nothing if not varied. But when I mention all these people, people probably think you have always ran in those circles.

But your story is interesting. You started in your parents' front room. I always wanted to be a makeup artist. That was my love when I was at school. And there was a television programme with Rolf Harris and it was called Just the Job. And it was looking for people to come on board who wanted to do something different when they left school rather than be a teacher or a nurse or whatever and my mother said oh come on you need to get involved with that because you want to be a

makeup artist and I said no no I'm too shy I can't do it anyway she wrote in and they took me on the show and the BBC trained their own makeup artists in those days. And for a sort of a thing about going on the show, they said they would take me on as an apprentice, but I couldn't start until I was 18. So they said I had to do hairdressing. So I said, fine, never even thought about hairdressing. So I went to the career officer and she said, right, we've got two jobs, one in Ealing, one in Mayfair. My mother said Ealing because that's near where we lived so I obviously said Mayfair had no clue where Mayfair was not a clue anyway got to Mayfair next to Claridge's this very posh salon and it's like all so exciting and yes my mother couldn't afford the fare for me to come into town every day so she let me have her front

room to experiment and all my friends and family and And I thought, oh, God, I don't think I can stand this. Buffon hair, rollers, sweeping the floor, very boring, until somebody sent me into the back room. And when I got into the back room, it was a colour room. And it was like, oh, my God, this is fabulous. So I start with colour on the hair instead of colour on the face. And from there, I went to Bedell Sassoon, which was the highlight of my life, apart from having my own business. And that's where I built all my celebrity clients like the Richard Burtons and the David Hemmings and worked for producers that used to whisk me off in cars and take me off to sets and name your price and fabulous time.

Absolutely amazing time. What a life. Let's read a few that are coming in, which are so much the same as well. No surprise there. Let me see. My hairdresser, Tracy, is retiring next week. I'm devastated. 20 years of sharing every aspect of our lives.

We've gone through styles and colours and she nurtured me and my hair. Once I decided to go grey, I'm always complimented. I've been going to the same barber, says Rob, since 1968. Oh, fabulous. By 55 years. Oh, see, I'm always complimented. I've been going to the same barber, says Rob, since 1968. Oh, fabulous. By 55 years.

Oh, I see that's loyalty for you. Yeah, here's, hi, Woman's Hour. My hair query is that I'm just 60, naturally a brunette, but I've coloured my hair for decades. I'm transitioning to grey. Is it too early to use those purple shampoos on the market? I think the Queen Consort's hair is looking particularly glorious at the moment. No wonder she stayed with her hairdresser for decades and not Sarah.

What do you think? I think you'll probably tell Sarah, don't go grey. No, don't go grey. Don't go grey. Go lighter, go lighter, softer. Even go into low lights. You know, you can have low lights through grey hair, which just breaks it up. What are low lights?

Coloured lights that go into grey hair so that you end up like a tortoiseshell effect. So it's sort of a blend. So it's softer, but it's not actually grey. It's low maintenance. Because a lot of people don't want the maintenance of roots when they get older. So low lights is a low maintenance situation. How much has the techniques changed over the years? Absolutely massively. And balayage, which is like, well, was the new thing. That was the thing where you kind of had a block of different colour kind of at the end. Yes. That's only retro. That's not a new one. It's a retro. Okay. When we first started colouring hair, there was no foils to put highlights in. So everything was padded out

with cotton wool and you just painted the colour on the ends. I have to say, there's always such interest in your life, Jo. Let me see, shall we do a silver one? Silver hair looks fab. I'm shouting at the radio. Yes, that's what we want patting crudley at this hour in the morning. Everybody has their own opinion and everybody's entitled to their own opinion. One more for the Queen Consort. Do you get to chat with her about you have kids the same age? Yes. Is it like any other client? Very chatty, confidant? We both have a love of gardening, big time gardening. She loves her garden and doesn't see it often enough, unfortunately. I love gardening as well. And yes, our children are about the same age so we talk about grandchildren and the holidays and what they're doing and you know her son's a very successful chef Tom and it's

a mother interest as well as a client interest and yes we talk about normal things like any other client basically I don't delve into the secret things No, of course not That's why people come back to you But what can we expect during the coronation for her hair? I think she'll look gorgeous I mean, you know, I think she's nervous like any other person would be nervous but I'm sure her hair will look the same as it always looks and it does look good now, yes

In photos it looks so much better, the colour because it's softer and it's warmer I think the difficulty will be putting the crown on without changing the style and how that happens I don't know because I won't be there I'll be watching it on the telly like so many or maybe listening on the radio Joe Hansford thank you so much for coming in with beautiful hair I should say for people who are asking as well thank you so much for coming in with beautiful hair I should say for people who are asking as well

thank you blonde yes blonde I'm always going to be a blonde I'll never ever not be a blonde if I'm stuck on a desert island it'll be a toothbrush and a tint brush

forever lovely stuff now many of you may have heard my next guest Zoe Lyons being funny on Radio 4 comedy shows

like the News Quiz and Cena on TV shows like Live at the Apollo and QI. She also hosts the BBC2 quiz show Lightning. Well, over the last couple of years, she's kept herself busy by having what she describes as a monumental midlife crisis. It's involved buying a sports car, splitting up with her wife and running a 100k ultra marathon.

Along the way, though, her hair also started to fall out. The alopecia she first experienced as a child returned and she lost almost 80% of her hair. Thankfully, Zoe has been able to see the funny side and she's used the experience to write her stand-up show, Bald Ambition, which she's currently touring around the country. Well, she joined Nuala and began by describing her midlife crisis. Oh, rather embarrassingly, it was a little bit cliched. I mean, the whole thing, to be honest, was kicked off really by the start of the pandemic. I think that period of history that we went through recently sort of afforded us time to

have a very good look at our own lives. I thought you were going to of afforded us time to have a very good look at our own lives? I thought you were going to say afforded us time to have a really good midlife crisis. Well, I will say if you are planning on having a midlife crisis, I can highly recommend doing it on the back of a global pandemic because hardly anybody notices. It's like a really distracting star curtain in the background. But I think for the first time in a very long time, I had a very empty diary, which sort of afforded me time to look at everything in realise that I was carrying behaviours and thoughts and processes that were no longer useful to me in this stage of my life. Midlife crisis sounds sort of negative, but I now see it as a huge, huge positive. It's like being a sort of mature crab and shedding your exoskeleton and then growing something afresh. I mean, the process

isn't pretty. There's a moment where you think you're going to be eaten by the seagulls. But once you come through it the other side, there's a new shell to you. So, but yeah, it was very cliched. It was, some would say sad. I bought a sports car. Of course I did. I bought two actually. Yeah. I bought two, actually. Tick, tick. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because I bought the first one and I went, that's not going to make you happy, so is it?

I thought, no. I thought, why not? I thought, it's not the right car. My wife and I separated. We'd been together for 25 years. We did come back together and we've come back together afresh and happier because of that separation, I think. We spent a year apart and I lived in what I cheekily refer to as my divorced dad flat because it felt very much like that. It sort of had a can of lager and a chair.

It was quite depressing. But a year is a long time to be apart from somebody, and it does give you that time to sort of reflect and go, are we meant to be together and can we find a way and thankfully we did and we are much better for it so it's like a great reckoning i think is the way i'm hearing it from you zoe as some of our listeners got in touch i'm about to go through that midlife period now and have been training to run a 10k as a midlife fitness achievement my husband on the hand, started learning to ride a motorbike, was wishing to feel the wind through his now receding hairline.

Oh, yeah, I hear you with the receding hairline because I lost mine as well. I had a comb over during my midlife crisis. Let's talk about that, though, because you had alopecia as a child, right, when you were 11, and then it returned. Stress related, do you think? Oh, absolutely. Completely, yes. I mean, I'd had it on and off in my 20s. I had little patches. I have alopecia areata, so it's losing patches of hair.

But, you know, this particular period of my life was obviously extremely stressful with everything that was going on. And my hair started to fall out again, and it just didn't stop this time. It really went for it and I I had that awful moment when I thought I think it might all go I I lost about 85 percent of my hair at the worst it's very distressing it was hugely distressing yeah it was really I mean to stand in the shower with handfuls of your own hair in your hand is alarming. And then of course, you know, I, what I do for a living is, is slightly odd. You know, I'm a standup comedian. I'm...

Put yourself out there. You put yourself out there. It's a, it's a, you know, you do feel vulnerable for want of a better word at times you are, you know, you are literally exposing yourself and your thoughts and your being on stage. And to not look and feel like yourself was challenging. But I found an amazing wig maker. I had a wig made and it meant I could carry on doing television work and keep going. And now, I mean, I'm nearing the end of my tour and my hair is sprouting back. It's like spring has sprung. This is like the full circle, Zoe, I'm hearing.

But, you know, you do have a wonderful photograph for your bald ambition tour and you show off your hair loss, I think is an incredibly powerful image. Do you want to try and describe it to our listeners? Yes. So I have an amazing friend, an amazing photographer friend called Mark Vesey, and I said to him, I want to capture this difficult part of my life in a very positive way.

And my hair fell out in quite a peculiar way in that it left me with one grey streak down the middle of my head. A little Cruella. A little Cruella. And I thought, you know, I want to make this look strong. I thought, actually actually it looks quite punk it looks if I'm honest I thought actually I think it looks quite cool at the stage it does yeah and I thought you know we're so used to seeing bouncy hair adverts on television you know we're used to seeing you know a woman is her hair and there she is under a waterfall somewhere

in the rainforest with you know parakeets going off around. And I thought not every woman's experience is that. I think people are much better at sort of showing a diversity of skin types and skin conditions that people have, but not so much hair. And I thought, actually, you know, I've only got a tuft, but I still want to feel cool and, you know, present a strong image. So that's what we went for. And I'm really proud of that picture. I'm really proud of it. It looks great. Do you want some more stories from our listeners? Please. Tell them I'm not the only one. Here we go. Here's Jane. After a six month sabbatical travelling in South America, I left my job, my home and my friends to go and live with a man in Venezuela whom I hardly knew. I was 55. It was a big change and

many people thought I was mad. I stayed 55. It was a big change and many people thought I was mad. I stayed there for six years until the relationship and the political situation became difficult and returned to the UK. Here's another one. Oh, please let me have Zoe as my lifestyle guru. So far, I've simply left my husband, stopped dyeing my hair and taken up DIY.

I feel Zoe might give me some more fun ideas and that's Michelle. Well, I also got into running in a really big way. I find exercises help me enormously. And I ended up signing up to do a run from London to Brighton. Why? I don't know. Because a normal person would have gone, let's try a marathon. So I've done a half marathon. And I think the next step normally would have been, let's try a marathon, you know. But for me, I was like, nah, that's no, let's go further.

How did it go? Shall we say there were issues? Okay. Here's another woman getting in touch. Let me see. I'm 64. Four years ago, I bought a rib. And then I did a powerboat level two course. Let me see. I'm 64. Four years ago, I bought a rib and then I did a powerboat

level two course. That's fantastic. I mean, I'm presuming she doesn't live in a landlocked part of the UK. That tearing down the M1. She's broken that cliche. She's gone, sports car, no. No, sports boat.

Sports boat, a powerboat. Well done. So you have another couple of dates, I believe, until you finish your Bald Ambition tour. Just very briefly, Zoe, I mean, how different is it now for female comics out there? Really different. I mean, I'm on stage talking about my alopecia and menopause in this show.

There's no way I'd have got away with that 20 years ago. Absolutely not. I'm having such a good time talking about this particular crisis point in my life because it seems to resonate with a lot of people. The lovely Zoe Lyons there about her stand-up show, Bald Ambition. That's nearly all from me.

You can join Nuala on Bank Holiday Monday where we've got a real treat for you. The book Honey, Baby, Mine is a joint project by mother-daughter actors Diane Ladd and Laura Dern. A few years ago after Diane faced a serious threat to her health the two embarked on a series of walks and talks that Laura recorded. Nuala is going to chat to them about those strolls and how they became a book. Enjoy your extended weekend. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's

faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.