Woman's Hour - Rugby star Ellie Kildunne, Abuse scandal update, Women at GCHQ, Singer-songwriter Kamille

Episode Date: May 27, 2026

World Rugby Player of the Year and World Cup Champion Ellie Kildunne joins Nuala McGovern fresh from a Player of the Match performance at the Six Nations final. She reflects on her rise to the top and the story behind her memoir Game Changer.It's 15 years since Panorama exposed the scandal of abuse of people with learning difficulties and autism at Winterbourne View assessment and treatment centre. One mother, Ann Earley, tells us about the lasting damage to her son from his time at Winterbourne View. He now has a bungalow of his own but Ann says thousands of others like him still in hospitals must be allowed out. Another mother tells us how her daughter has been stuck in hospital for seven years. Jackie O Sullivan from the charity Mencap explains how the new mental health act, which is designed to stop this, may prove inadequate. It took more than a hundred years for the UK's largest spy agency GCHQ to get a woman at the helm. In post since April 2023 Anne Keast-Butler gives her inaugural annual lecture at Bletchley Park setting out the threats she thinks the UK faces and the measures she believes are needed to confront them. Dan Sabbagh, the defence and security editor at the Guardian and Professor Ciaran Martin, the former Chief Executive and founder of the National Cyber Security Centre which is part of GCHQ. discuss and analyse what she will do to encourage women in the field.Singer, songwriter and producer Kamille is one of the UK’s most successful hitmakers, with two Grammy Awards, a Brit, an Ivor Novello and six UK number ones to her name. She’s worked with artists including Dua Lipa, Kylie, The Saturdays, Stormzy and Fred Again and became known as ‘the fifth member’ of Little Mix while writing some of the girl band’s biggest hits. After being honoured with the Inspiration Award by the Music Producers Guild for her impact on the music industry, she discusses how she went from junior stockbroker to songwriter extraordinaire and is now forging a career as a solo artist.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Melanie Abbott

Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Rugby superstar. Ellie Kildon, fresh off her six nations win in just a moment. Now, her motto is a partial quote from Roaldale. Lukewarm is no good. Is that part of the secret to her success? I was wondering what about you?

Is there a quote or a motto that you live by? Something that has helped you maybe through challenging circumstances. I did a quick run around the woman's hour office this morning. Here's some of theirs. To err is human. To forgive divine. You've got to be in it, to win it. What's for you?

Won't go by you. One day at a time. And my favourite. Everything in moderation, especially moderation. You can take. the program, the number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or voice note, that number is 0,3700, 100444. Also, the woman who leads GCHQ gives her inaugural speech today on how she is keeping us safe. We're going to hear more on who Anne Keese Butler is this hour. And we ask the question, why are people with a learning disability and autistic people being

inappropriately detained in mental health hospitals. Years after promised changes to the system, we'll hear from mothers who have gone through this with their children. We also have Camille in the studio. Now, you may or may not be familiar with her name, but you will definitely know some of the songs she has written. Six number ones, no less. So we're also going to hear about what she's writing for herself this time,

all that coming up this hour. But let me begin with my first guest. some ways to describe her. World rugby player of the year. World Cup champion. Six Nations champion. Runner up at BBC Sport Personality of the Year award. That is, of course, the unstoppable Ellie Kildon.

The England rugby player is widely regarded as one of the most exciting players the game has ever seen. Most recently been named Player of the Match in the Six Nations Final, where England won a success of eight time. Her curly hair has iconic status among rugby fans, and she has shared her own journey now to the top in her memoir, Game Changer. You're so welcome to the Women's Hour Studio, Ellie. You can be blush.

Excellent. That's what we aim to do. Well, it is great to have you with us, and I reeled off some of your achievements there. I could add a few more. Let me see, can I make you blush more? Author, MBA, brand ambassador, all achieved by a female rugby star, a sport that when you were young, you're still young, you're just 26, that was just not considered a realistic career path.

Yeah, I mean, it's something that's blowing my mind and it continues to blow my mind every single day. You know, when I was a youngster, being a rugby player as a profession wasn't something on my radar at all. I actually wanted to be a football player because I could almost see that happening. I could see the role models that were out there,

but I was a little bit better at rugby than I was football. You played with the football? the boys, as many actually up the lionesses that we've spoken to, you talk about football there as well, hot to do when they were starting out. But where was the turning point when you decided rugby was the sport for you? I went to a tournament. I was a little bit younger, but I was allowed to go to this tournament representing north of England. And when I went there, it was all the best of the best in my age group and the age group above me. And suddenly I had role models, people that I hadn't seen before, women's rugby wasn't as visible as it is today,

but suddenly I was surrounded by role models that inspired me. And I think that's probably my own story coming through with what we can do for the younger kids now is as soon as you can see it, you can believe it. So, yeah, that was really the fire in my belly that made me think I want to do this. What age for you then, would you say approximately? 15. Right, because then it wasn't much long after then that you'd. took the decision to go to Hartbury College after finishing school at 16.

And your mum says in the book that that broke her heart seeing you leave home. How were you feeling about it? Yeah, look, when you're younger, I don't think you can necessarily feel the way that your parents feel. You just think they've been unfair. And I think at the time, that's what I felt. You know, I committed to coming home every single weekend, which I did. But as I've got older, I've really understood why they got so upset about it and why

did break heart because yes they missed out on a lot of time with me but I've missed out on a lot of time with them and my brother and yeah my life but it doesn't come your success without real sacrifice yeah I think sacrifice is a funny word and I think it's something that we're always asked as anybody that's successful what's a sacrifice but I like seeing it as the choice what choice have you made because sacrifice you can think that something bad may happen alongside it but without the choices that I've made and the decisions that I've made, I wouldn't be living the life that I've got. And I made that difficult choice,

and we can all in our life every single day make decisions to put your best foot forward. And that's what I did. Yeah, I may have missed out on family time and birthdays and all the rest of it that I think anybody who's in sport can reel off. But, you know, I make sure that I make it worth it. I love that thought about, yeah, choices. We could even go on further,

that there were opportunities that you decided to embrace as opposed to thinking about it as sacrifice. You know, you've mentioned role models there and of course that's part of how far the game has come. There you are for all little girls to see. In the book, you say you were so excited getting your first match fee that you blew it on a pair of expensive headphones.

Other older teammates were saving it away. Tell me a little bit how you've seen it since like maybe in the past 10 years, how the women's game has taken off? It's taken off in all directions. Obviously, we're a professional outfit at the Red Roses, and at the time it wasn't professional. So I can now understand now I'm a little bit older,

why the older girls were saving that money and I wasn't. But, yeah, now it's a professional setup, so I can say it's my full-time job, and it's pretty much all I've ever known. You look at the crowd numbers. Yes. it's something that definitely over the past two or three years the growth in it is just

blowing everyone's mind obviously the World Cup was amazing for numbers but we never want to make a moment we want to make a movement and to see the numbers carry on rising during this Six Nations just passed after the World Cup is definitely showing that that movement's happened

so yeah I think the women's game and I think it's the same in football as well the positive about it is that it can only go one way. It can only go up. We can take it in any direction we want it to go and that seems to be what we're doing. I did notice Chloe Kelly has a little blurb on your book as well. I love that intersection between football and rugby and the women as you talk about. She says it's about the example, you, Ellie sets and the belief she gives the next generation that we as women belong on the biggest stage. Yeah, it's exactly that. Everyone's got a place that they belong. You know,

the beauty about rugby is that you don't have to fit into. any mould. You can create your own mould and that's exactly what I've tried to do is not look at who people want me to be and just feel it within my chest and be who I am and that's taking me to heights that I never thought were possible. And we'll talk about some of that journey as well. I mentioned at the top runner-up at the sports personality and it was Rory McElroy I think maybe that pipped you the post this time but at one of your first games for England, some fans asked you for a picture. And you assumed that they wanted you to take their picture,

but without you in the picture? Yeah, I mean, you know, growing up, my mum took loads of photos. And in the book, there's a couple of sections of photos that my mum is taking. I'm so grateful that, you know, my life has been captured. So I just thought I'd be doing the deed back and taking a photo of this moment that, you know, two people were at the game. It could have been the first game. They could have been to many games.

So I wanted to capture that for them. And then when I soon realized that they meant with me in it, I felt a little bit embarrassed because I wondered why would you want me in it as well. But, you know, that's now become a norm to get the photos and to sign the autographs. And actually another part to that bit is the next person had actually asked me for my autograph. And I was like 18, 19 years old at that point. And I didn't have an autograph. So I made it up there on the spot.

And ever since I've had to keep that same old. Is it very swirly? It's rubbish. It's rubbish. And I see some of the other girls do their autographs when we're signing things and it looks so elegant and beautiful. And yeah, mine's just a little squiggle. Yeah, it's got a nice story behind it. But I'm sure those that come up to you are just delighted to get it.

And so they are some of the highs, which I suppose you must be reminded of consistently because you're so recognisable your face. after all this success. Most of our listeners aren't winning World Cups. But I think some of what you've learned from your experiences can be shared and perhaps helpful as well. You spoke in the book about the heartbreak of losing out in the 2021 World Cup final. How do you deal with disappointment?

Do you have any sort of... Because disappointment is such a... It's a terrible emotion because sometimes there's nowhere to put it, if that makes sense. What do you do? I kind of use it as like fuel. And I'm very much a type of thing that I've got to put it into real life scenarios

so that it almost like strips it away from the emotion and makes it physical. So, you know, losing that World Cup, I just saw it as like, this fire was already burning my tummy. Now I've got like a can of petrol that I'm thrown over the top of it so it never burns out. And I'm a strong believer that everything happens for a reason. Again, I tried to make it into a positive. We would have loved to have won, but now we've got this opportunity

to rewrite the fairy tale. We're coming back to England and we've got a home walk up and we're now beatable. So more people are going to come to watch it and we can show everybody that we're here to win and we're here to be successful.

It leads me on to your motto that I mentioned at the beginning borrowed from Roll-Dal. It's a partial quote of lukewarm is no good. I think part of the rest of the quote says hot is no good. It needs to be white, hot, passion. which is what I'm hearing from you. Tell me a little bit more about that quote.

Yeah, look, it was a quote that my mum sent to me one day when I was a lot younger. And I think as life's gone on, it's kind of moulded into an everyday piece that I don't necessarily think of, but I live by. You know, I'm a very passionate person and I wear my heart on my sleeve. And I believe if you want change,

if you want something to happen, nothing changes if nothing changes, You may be comfortable, but yeah, if you want to move forward, if you want the best out of life and the best out of yourself, you've got to jump in, you've got to become passionate about it. And, yeah, whether that's my rugby, putting myself in challenging positions or trying new moves, or if it's in everyday life, some of the opportunities that I've had to a lot of people may be scary, but I've got to embrace it and see what comes from it. So, yeah, I think it's a quote that definitely everyone can live by. So I was looking at your quote, looking at your book, and then I put on you playing as well to watch back a little in preparation. I was like, I have another quote for Ellie.

And it comes from Bruce Lee. Be like water. So you adapt fluidly to life's challenges. But it came to me as I was watching you because you are like water when you're on the pitch. But you're more like a torrent that is forcing everything out of its way. until you score. I like that. I like that.

I think the way that I play, you know, I'll always be the first to say it, that rugby is a team sport and I wouldn't be able to do what I do without the girls, you know, inside me doing all the bruising hits and running into people. It gives me the space out wide.

But, you know, I play with a creativity and I've been granted the freedom by my coaches to see and do, trust that feeling and that decision within myself that I've seen and then go for it. And it goes back to being lukewarm is no good. When I've had a game that I've not really been sure about, I've asked my coach, you know, what can I do here?

And he said, you didn't go 100% at that. You kind of thought that you saw something, see, you kind of got a result. Whereas if you went at it 100%, whether it's good or it's bad, you've made a decision. And that's going back to lukewarm is no good. You're in that in-between space and you don't get the outcome you want. So interesting. of you, if we're ever approaching something half-heartedly will think lukewarm is no good.

I do want to talk about another aspect. You're so open and frank about your life and what brought you to this point. And that include the body image, Ellie. And I want to talk about that. We often talk about it here on this programme, on Women's Hour, and about the positive message that rugby sends as a sport, all body types, not only accept it, but welcomed. You mentioned that as well.

There's a place for everyone. on a rugby squad. But your own relationship with your body image took a dip during lockdown as you weren't eating enough, you were pushing your body to extremes. Can you tell our listeners a little of how that happened and you talk about it or write about it,

should I say so eloquently in your book? Yeah, look, I'm an athlete and I'm competitive. I'll always try to win and that's what has made me the person I am. But during COVID, obviously, it was difficult for everybody in many different ways. And to be stripped away from the team I'm part of, we had an Olympics ahead of us that we were training for.

So everything kind of got taken away from me. And I haven't been in that position for a long time where I've not had that structure. So I guess it started by wanting to be the best in something else. And that competitiveness in me just took over to take it too far. You know, it started with going on 5K runs and then how can I get a little bit quicker doing the 5K runs? well, I need to get a little bit lighter.

So you were setting down parameters for performance, really, I suppose. Yeah, exactly. And I think then it spiraled into wanting to be smaller. You know, I remember I used to do body checks in the mirror and see if by the end of the week I was smaller for no reason. And sat here today, I'm like, why did I do that? It's so silly. But I think it's something that, as, you know, people that are seen as athletes

and maybe, you know, people that championed a lot for what they do, it's very important for us to talk about it because it normalises it. And the thing that really helped me get out of that time was talking about it. As much I didn't want to. I spoke about it with a physio of mine at the time. She'd noticed I lost a little bit of weight. And as soon as I said it, I created this accountability that, you know,

I didn't want to do it anymore. So, yeah, it was a very tough time, but it definitely shaped who I am today. And it's made me a better athlete now I've got out of it. And you feel fully out of it, which is wonderful. But do you feel a vigilance, maybe? Yeah, I mean, it's always going to be something that I've got to be cautious of. You know, I never want to slip back into habits. And, you know, another part of it is I've got ADHD as well, which I do write about

in the book where, you know, it's strange sometimes just eating, something simple just isn't a priority. And that was one of the reasons that I went through the diagnosis was because being in camp three or four weeks at a time, food ended up not being the priority. But I know how important food is for me to perform at the level that I do perform. So I needed to understand myself. And that it's always going to be something that I've got to be conscious of. I don't want to slip back into a routine that I think is normal, but, you know, everyone around me is saying, you need to eat more than what you're eating.

And I've got to come up with strategies that help me. One of my strategies is, you know, I will never like having a big plate of food. I just can't pick where I need to eat first and then I think, I'm just not going to eat. So I almost like create my own tapas, have smaller place. Ellie tapas. Yeah, have smaller plates. It might be, let's say, sausage and mash.

I have a small plate of sausage and mash. And I get another small plate of sausage in my house. So I end up eating the same amount or whatever I'm needing to eat. And another one is before a game I always eat plain pasta. Nothing on it. It's so boring. But it's just so that I know I'm having the fuel that I need to perform for my team, for my nation. And I'm going to make sure that I've got the food in me to perform at the level I need to.

You mentioned the ADHD. You did give a very beautiful description of it talking about all these thoughts that come crashing in. that at times might be somewhat disruptive, but you love a little bit of chaos. Yeah, I love chaos. I think there's so much calm within chaos. And, you know, I thrive in things being a little bit up in the air and not really knowing what I'm doing.

I like finding my way throughout that. And I think ADHD as much as definitely over the past few years it's been spoken about on social media a lot. I think it's a superpower as well. the world slightly differently. I see the game of rugby slightly differently and I'll pick up on things being spaces to attacking opportunities on the field

that other people might not be able to see. You know, the difficulty I have or have had is how do I articulate that to my team who don't see it that way? And that's something that I've had to learn. And I think I've cracked the code on how to speak to my teammates in a way that they can understand what I'm seeing.

It's frustrating when I still feel I can't get it across. But that's something that getting the diagnosis really help me understand. And I never want to see it as an excuse. It's just how can I get better? Now I understand this, how can I get better? I love this idea, Ellie, explaining to the other Red Rose is her chaos theory of how she sees it all playing out.

Right, one more superpower before I let you go. Your hair, iconic, lovely head of blonde curly hair that we see bobbing up and down as you play or maybe actually flying back because of the speed that you go at. In your book, you say that also helps with performance. Yeah, it does. I think it goes back to the body image part of things. So, you know, I'm quite a tall female. And on the field, I'm still quite tall, but I'm quite slim.

And I remember years ago now, I'd always stand in the tunnel and try hold myself higher than everybody else because they'd be scared of me if I was tall than them. You've kind of got that lioness. I mean, we're talking about football, but you have got with the hair that kind of presence. Yeah, exactly. But then obviously going through what I did with my body image and eating,

I lost a lot of confidence and I felt small than everybody else. I felt my hair was a lot longer at the time. I felt small and then that lacked in confidence than I'd lose a contact when I'm getting tackled. So I cut my hair off. I didn't go down to the bone, but I cut my hair a lot shorter. which obviously the weight of it was lighter and it got bigger.

And suddenly it gave me this presence that I am bigger than anybody here. It doesn't matter about, you know, the way that I look. My aura is bigger than everyone else's. And if you can have that confidence, especially in rugby, in any walk of life, if you really believe in yourself that I have got this, I am carrying something that everyone is thinking, who is this person? You'll be able to do whatever you want to do. You're reminded me of Oscar Wilde, another little quote.

why do we throw it out there as well. Be yourself, everyone else is taken. Yes, exactly that. Well, it's great to have you with us, Ellie. No doubt you're going to go on to great success again and again. We hear all about that fuel on your fire to just keep reaching heights that were unimaginable, as you said, growing up. I want to let people know. Your book is Game Changer.

It's out now. Also, Ellie is touring. She's going to be in London, Leeds and Bristol in June. Tickets are available online. And if you have been impacted by anything we've been speaking about, you can find help and support on the BBC Action Line. Thanks so much. Thank you.

Thanks for all your messages that are coming in with the mottoes. Here's a few, Carolyn, a quote from Arthur Ash, the late tennis player. Start where you are, use what you have, do what you can. Here's another from Sarah. Never sing louder than lovely. I lead a small singing group and that quote serves me well. Another. My favourite saying is one that I made up.

It is better to have lived and cringed than never to have lived at all and one more. My best life motto says Josie and Devin the words of the great Joni Mitchell something's lost, some things gains in living every day. Keep them coming. 84844

if you'd like to get in touch. Now, some of you may remember a shocking documentary from panorama that aired 15 years ago. It showed the terrible abuse of people with a learning disability and people with autism at Winterbourne View

that was an assessment and treatment hospital. Many had been stuck there for years despite being sent there only for an assessment. That programme led to the closure of that hospital and promises that things would change. But a decade and a half later we're going to hear now from mothers and also the charity Mencap

they say that not enough is being done to release what Mencap estimates to be 2,000 people with autism and or a learning disability from being detained inappropriately. Jackie O'Sullivan is the Executive Director of Strategy at Mencamp, mencap, excuse me. Great to have you with us. We're going to hear from a couple of mothers

in just a few minutes' time from Anne and also a woman we're calling Sue. But let me begin with you, Jackie. Can you explain, I say, assessment and treatment unit, what are they? And give us a little bit more context to that panorama program. Yeah, absolutely. So an assessment and treatment unit is basically a mental health hospital, and it's designed to treat people with mental health conditions, which is why people with a learning disability shouldn't be there. A learning disability is not a health condition and you can't treat it. So I guess it's designed for people with serious mental health issues that can respond to treatment like medication therapeutics. It's also exactly the wrong environment for somebody with a learning disability. or somebody who's autistic because it's very clinical, it's very controlled, and it basically

makes people's behaviours worse. So there was this panorama programme that exposed what was happening in this particular institution which closed down. But you say there are still people in institutions that shouldn't be. I mentioned the number 2000. How are you seeing that estimate? So that comes from NHS data. So we know there are just over two, it fluctuates a bit, but they're generally just over 2,000 people.

We know of that 200 are children and we know 213 are cleared to be released, but there's nowhere for them to go. And we also know that for people with a learning disability, the average length of stay is 4.7 years. There's a lot of aspects to this that I think people need to understand. there was a new Mental Health Act passed just last year and it sought to address this issue of inappropriate detention so people staying overstaying, should I say what they should when they've just been there for an assessment, for example. What did it say exactly when you feel it comes to this issue?

So it said that people with a learning disability or autistic people should not be detained in assessment and treatment units unless they also have a mental health condition. So the Mental Health Act was really good news. We welcomed it. We worked and campaigned for it. But the problem is that those provisions won't be switched on until there's enough community support to enable people to be released

and to enable people to be prevented from going in. So it's really good news. It should stop people going in, but only when it's switched on. But that is the crux. If the community support is not there, then they would not be released. Yes, absolutely. Now, the government at the time that the bill was passed, an MP Gencroft, who has done a lot of really good work in this area, got health minister Stephen Kinnock to agree to set out a roadmap for that community support. But so far, I'm afraid we haven't seen it.

With the, coming back to the 2000 figure just before I move on, do we know, are we sure or is there evidence that within that people with a learning disability, or with autism do not have a mental health condition? So we think some will. So we know that 213 are cleared to come out. Yes, you mentioned. We think, and these are just our estimates, that there's probably another 6 to 800 people who should and could. But at the moment we don't have that level of detail.

But these aren't huge numbers here. Somebody should be able to collate everybody's details and actually work through the list and make a really good assessment. and then really work hard to get those probably up to a thousand people out. Let us speak first to Anne early. The Panorama program 15 years ago was shocking. Some parents ought to watch how their children were being treated or abused, as people would say.

And son Simon was filmed, being abused. Anne, thank you very much for joining us. what did you know about Simon's care before you were alerted by panorama to Winterbourne View? Good morning. We knew very little about Simon's care. He had been sectioned against our wishes and taken to Winterbourne View,

which had been deemed unsuitable before he even got there. So we knew day-to-day, very little of, what happened. I failed at the time and I still failed to see how they expected it to help Simon, bearing in mind he had no mental health problems. He wasn't ill. He had a learning disability that unfortunately was not curable. We would have loved to find an answer to it and we'd spent a long time looking. But it is what it is and that's what and who Simon was. And I really really failed to see what they had expected to achieve

by this. When he came out of Winterbourne View, as I mentioned also, that the institution was closed after Panorama aired, how was he? What do you think? Because there was a lot of restraint, for example,

there was physical abuse as well that had taken place. Absolutely. Go ahead. He was a very changed person. He was not the son that I had known. He was distressed.

He was anxious. He self-harmed very badly and still does to this day. He was on antipsychotic medication that we've not been able to wean him from. His whole life had been turned on its head for over two years. By what he had gone here? True. Yes, how could he make sense of that? It was hard enough for him to make sense of normal life. But everything that he'd known, all the familiar people, places, routines had been disrupted and removed from him, including his family. I want to bring in another mother who we are calling Sue. She wants to remain anonymous as her daughter is still in an assessment centre.

Sue, thank you also for joining us. Can you tell me a little bit about. your daughter's story. Yes, good morning. My daughter went into a mental health hospital seven years ago as a child and for the last four of those seven years she remains in what is termed long-term segregation. She is effectively on her own. So during when she went into long-term segregation she was was diagnosed with autism, which to be honest was no surprise to me and people who knew her very well from her whole childhood. She spent many years not wanting to be alive. She did, in her time in hospital, she's been in a few hospitals, but in previous hospitals she did suffer abuse and negligent,

and her living conditions now are very isolating. There are restrictive practices in there. I wholly believe that her background is she, in many ways, she was able to attend mainstream school. She achieved very well academically at GCSE levels. however she suffered trauma in her childhood which that mix of undiagnosed autism along the trauma led her into hospital

she her life now is is very difficult it's been devastating to us as a family there was a period of time that I didn't see her for three years for a number of reasons So she does want to live now and she's looking forward to leaving hospital. And I'm glad her mental health is improved in that way, Sue.

But what is the reason given that she is not allowed leave at the moment, as I believe you think she should be? It is obviously a complex picture, which for anyone who's... I mean, she needed hospital at the time of admission for sure. I was expecting her to receive treatment and help with what's happened in the past. That didn't happen. So it's she deteriorated massively due to the impact of the treatment she received, knowing that she has that diagnosis of autism.

It's just very long. and ensuring there's appropriate trained staff that a trauma-focused, understand the needs of people with autism in terms of each person is individual. My daughter is very sensory in her needs, and it's been incredibly difficult. There's been delays and delays from moving hospital when she needed to. She had to remain in hospital without leave because she was sectioned under, 3 of the Mental Health Act and at time she has been, she's been a risk to herself and others at time. However, now she is on a path towards discharge, but it's a very long, lengthy process.

She wants to live in her own place. She's looking forward to that. However, it's so long because of the number of processes involved in for her to come out of hospital. And to have the support that she would need. Absolutely. There can be some complex needs, as you mentioned there as well, Sue. Coming back to you, Anne, I understand your son Simon finally has his own home. That sounds like a positive outcome, but as well, I know it's more complicated than the way I put it across.

Yes, he does. He has a lovely home in the same village than I live in. so he's back in his home where he knows people where he grew up. He's very well known in the area. But he has, as I say, severe problems with self-harming and sometimes very disruptive behaviour. But he has an amazing team who look after him. They've done fantastic work.

One of his carers has been with him for a, a long time over 20 years. So there's been continuity there. But it's not been a straightforward thing. But he has the best care that he could possibly have now under the circumstances. She's incredibly lucky in that respect. But it was a torturous journey to get there. Yes.

As we hear Sue going through a torturous journey, as she described it. Jackie, let me bring you back in here. we mentioned community support which both of these mothers would like to see for their children instead of being in the assessment and treatment units for example do we know how people do for example within community care settings

as opposed to treatment centres and I want to be very clear and don't want to imply in any way that those in treatment centres are at risk of abuse So we do. And there are lots of examples like Simon of people who have vastly improved lives. I mean, clearly, leaving one of these places and the damage that the treatment has done to people take some time to unravel. But actually we do know that people can live really successfully in communities. They might need quite high levels of care when they initially come out. So somebody might need, say, four to. want to support to begin with. Four to one. But over time, that will diminish. And within a couple of years, that can be reduced to regular levels. But we do know people enjoy bike riding with their families.

They enjoy going to train museums. They grow vegetables and flowers. They have pets. You know, they can live really lovely lives. And their families can see them as regularly and as often as they want to. Do you feel the situation will be resolved? So that's a really hard. There's no question.

it's really complex. The funding is in the wrong place for a start. So if you're in a mental health hospital, the NHS pays. If you're in community support, the local authorities pay. And we know that they don't have money. But actually, it's cheaper to support somebody in the community. We know that we need more housing. And actually next week, we've got a conference where we're bringing together families, housing providers, care providers, ICBs and NHS people, local authorities, officials from government. We had Zabir Ahmed who was supposed to be speaking, but unfortunately he's resigned. And of course, we haven't been able to find a replacement for him. So it would be nice to have some encouragement from government. But we're trying our best to tackle that and generate some more

housing. But really, I think, you know, we have much better data now. We know exactly who and and just after Winterbourne View, we didn't have that. We also can point to good practice. And I think there's a lot can be done to share that. But ultimately, this needs accountability. We need people in ICBs to be held accountable for getting integrated care boards in the NHS to be held accountable for people. And some of that, of course, will come down to exactly who funds what and the financial structures within it. Jackie O'Sullivan from Mencap, thanks very much.

I also want to thank Sue and Anne Early for sharing their stories of their children. We did ask the Department for Health and Social Care for a Minister to come on air. We were told no one was available. They did send us this statement. The abuse uncovered at a Winterbourne View should never have happened. We're absolutely committed to ensuring that people with a learning disability and those with autism receives a high quality of care that any other patient would expect. The Mental Health Act of 2025 represents the most significant reform to mental health legislation in a generation

and is a vital step towards ensuring people with a learning disability or autism are supported sooner and where possible in their communities. We will be working with stakeholders, including people with lived experience, to implement these changes safely and effectively. And if you have been affected by anything we have been speaking about during this discussion, there are links to help and support on the BBC's Action Line. Thanks for all your messages coming in. Here's one.

I heard I see a little bit of Irish this morning. My father would often use this expression, says Miriam. Be egg e-htacht, August egg five. Boglem, listen and learn. I hear my daughter using it with her London-born children. There's one little one for you. Another, what gets me through, Quentin Crisp, after the first two years, the dust doesn't get any thicker.

There's anybody who's struggling. Trying to get their house underway. We have more coming in, have a full board 844-4-844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, it took more than 100 years, but the UK's largest spy agency, GCHQ, has a woman at the helm. In post since April 23, Anne Keese Butler gives her inaugural annual lecture at Bletchley Park today. Setting out the threats, she thinks the UK faces and the measures she believes are needed to confront them. To discuss it further, I'm joined by Dan Saba, the Defence and Security Editor at the Gartian.

Also Kieran Martin, former chief executive and founder of the National Cybersecurity Centre, which is part of GCHQ. He's now a professor at the University of Oxford. Great to have both of you with us. Kieran, let me begin with you. I believe you used to be her boss. What was the director of GCHQ like to work with? She was excellent. She's grown into an accomplished national security leader and a consummate organizational leader. At heart, however, I think part of her is a quiet maths geek, and that's why GCHQ is a good choice for her to lead. I remember at GCHQ, because this isn't her first tour there. The heart of her career is MI5, but she is an Oxford graduate mathematician,

and when some of the GCHQ cryptographers and other experts would be explaining operational complexities to her, she'd have to remind them that she fully understood what they were talking about. So she is a maths expert. She's very passionate about the mission, very driven, but very people, person, somebody who inspires immense loyalty in her teams across the whole mission. which I'm sure is also a very covetable skill. Karestella Rimmington, Eliza Manningham Buller rise to the top of MI5. But are women still rare in leadership roles?

How significant do you see her appointment? Well, it was significant. One of the things GCHQ's had to do over the years is fight to protect itself from, if you like, the sort of pro forma approach that sometimes the rest of the civil service takes. So because it needs genius, it needs eccentric people and so forth.

It has a more different workforce, but yet its leadership has been very traditional up until now a mix of insiders and so forth. And MI5 broke that glass ceiling some time ago. So in a sense, it was surprising that GCHQ got thereafter MI5 in some respects, but it's very welcome and I think very important symbolically. But the organisation has changed a lot beyond just that. What do you think works when it comes to recruiting women? I think it is having an environment where women feel that their skills aren't looked down on.

I think if you look, GCHQ is a very multidisciplinary organisation, but its past, brilliant though it is, has given rise to an impression that it's sort of very linear and very much just head down, looking at maths or studying languages and so forth, but actually communication, psychology and so forth, I think has brought in a much wider range of people. And it's partly about getting out there, just telling people, I think there's been a lot of self-exclusion of women and other groups from

GCHQ in the past. So it's just getting out there and showing that you're not monsters. But I believe you think you need to get women girls young, so to speak, to get them interested in it. I used to run this program called Cyber First Girls, and it was to address the huge deficit of females in the cybersecurity workforce. And when we started out, we realized that 10% of graduates were in the relevant fields were female, which is very low. So we went and started looking at A levels. but we'd already lost them. So we ended up with the competition focusing on 13 and 14 year olds

and it was a real success. Wow, so 13, 14, if anybody has daughters out there. Now is the time to get involved. Karen, thank you very much for spending some time with us to speak about the new director, or I should say, the first female director of GCHQ. She's actually in the role a while. Dan will tell us more about that.

Good to have you with us as well. So as a director, what is her role exactly? What does she need to do? Well, she's the boss. So in that sense, she sort of sets the tone, sets the culture and leaves the organisation. Of course, she's a spy, works for politicians and political masters. GCHQ funnels up to the foreign office and, of course, the Prime Minister. So as any of Britain's three spy chiefs, she'll have regular access to the Prime Minister and Senior Ministers on National Security.

GCHQ, though, is a bit less well-known than the others, MI5 and MI6, which you probably have heard of. And what else do we know about her, even though she's a spy? Do we have any more personal information? We don't know a lot. And these are shy retiring people. And of course, Anne is the only member, only person within GCHQ who's publicly avowed, as they say, in the trade. And that means in English, whose name we know and we can refer to openly,

or his name is acknowledged and can be referred to openly. And if you had met, if you'd met Anne earlier in her career, a lot of her career was, as I understand it, in MI5, actually, but it still amounts to the same thing. If you'd met earlier in her career, and sometimes us journalists are allowed to, you would have found that you should have introduced self probably as Anne, most likely,

that's traditional for British Spice to use their first names, but you might have struggled to get a second name. You certainly wouldn't have got a business card, an email or a phone number. And if you'd had a briefing on a topic, you were unlikely to meet that person again or find any way of asking follow-up questions. So it's a pretty remote world. And even when you come into the public life as the boss,

they don't sort of say an awful lot, We know that she's a mathematician, I think, has already been referred to, studied maths at Merton College at Oxford, and then a 30-year career in intelligence, including roles and counter-intelligence, but you're not going to get a lot more detail than that. But I suppose she has to be a more public figure, perhaps, with just the way of the world now and people have an expectation to put a face to a name. You are going to Bletchley Park today to hear her speak. What are you expecting? Well, she's going to make some warnings about there'll be a kind of sort of tour d'Orizant's State of the Nation, look at all the threats facing the UK. There's going to be, there's a heavy emphasis on Russia.

She's used this phrase and trails overnight. Russia is relentlessly threatening the UK. That's quite a high bar. I mean, the idea of a Russian threat is not unfamiliar. But it's interesting, the range of things that she's talking about, that they're Russian threats to critical national infrastructure. Well, that might not be a surprise. And we've seen in Ukraine and a more.

aggressive and traditionally military way Russia, for example, targeting Ukraine's energy grid. But in the UK, you'll be thinking about cyber attacks and so forth. But also she's talked about, and this is really interesting, acknowledging threats to the democratic processes and public trust. And what are we talking about here? Well, this is things like trying to manipulate, you know, inauthentic campaigns on social media, on X, using bots, fake accounts, sometimes real people, but trying to, for example, magnify divisions in British society.

over whatever the current issue of the day is. And so it's interesting she's talking about this dual nature of the threat, both if you like infrastructure and, you know, the Russians are trying to get in our heads too. Fascinating. Thank you so much for giving us a preview of what to expect and also to learn as much as we can about the director of GCHQ, who is, as we were saying, Anne Keist Butler. We get her full name now, Dan Saba, and previously, and Martin, thanks to both of them.

Now, you may or may not be familiar with the name of my next guest, but you will definitely have heard at least one of her hit songs, maybe on the radio, on the dance floor, perhaps playing at your local supermarket as you shopped. She is the singer-songwriter and producer Camille, one of the UK's most successful hitmakers. She's worked with artists including Little Mix, fifth member in a way.

The Saturdays, Kylie, David Getter, Fred again, Clean Bandit, six number ones, get this, two Grammys, a Brit, an Ivor Novella songwriting award, and last month, honoured with the Inspiration Award from the Music Producers Guild, so the MPG, who called her an incredible force in today's music industry. What a nice accolade. I love it. I think that's the one thing that has made me happy is that people see me as an inspiration, because honestly from day to day, I don't know how I keep finding the energy to keep doing this.

And I know so many of us women know how it is, and we're trying to multitask and, you know, sometimes be parents or do this and work. And yeah, so to have that amazing accolade behind everything is just beautiful. Yeah, Nal Rodgers Storm, the skeptic. These are just some of the people

who have previously won that award. But I mentioned some of the hits. Let me see, 31 billion spot-for-street throw out these numbers. Yeah. When you talk, you know, you talk about the energy and having the energy to keep it going. I know you have two young kids as well.

Yeah. Do you know when you write the song, you're like, that's a... Yeah, you know straight away. Yep, you know straightway. You do. It's like a butterfly feeling that you have in your stomach when you know something is that incredible. And also, everyone in the room is feeling the same way. So it's not just you thinking I've written a hit.

It's like, everyone is like, oh my God, this song is incredible. Yeah, and no one else has heard it yet. And that is the best feeling ever. Like, every hit record I've been a part of, there's been that crazy moment where we've made the hit. And it's like a secret. until the whole world hears it. It's beautiful. Now, we may not have been privy to all of your talents because you were a stockbroker previously.

This is a story I read. You tell me whether this is true or not, that you walked out one lunchtime from that stockbroker job and never went back. I did, and it was raining. It was like I was in my music video. I just stormed out. I just didn't want to go back and I do not advocate anyone leaving their job. But for me, in that moment, it just was not the right choice. I'd studied so long. I'd got all my amazing, you know, my education. and all that stuff and I always encourage people

to go and get a degree. I would always recommend that. But for me, once I was in the job, I just felt like it just wasn't who I wanted to be and I wanted to be music. And I then went and,

you know, hung out at this music studio, wrote all these songs and the first song that I released went to number one, which was, What About Us? By the Saturday. Which we all know.

The minute you say what about us is like playing, like a little earworm. I mean, wonderful. It doesn't always. go this way though and I do appreciate the fact that's a very random and rare case of how it can go in the music industry but I just knew it was for me. And this thing of writing for other musicians, I wondered what it's like to hand over you realise it's a brilliant song, you realise

it's going to be a hit. Do you ever want to keep it for yourself? Yeah, of course. Sometimes you're oh my God, I wish I had that for me. But my management are incredible encouraging me to understand that every song has its journey. Every song has a reason. So just because it's not the one you think it might be, there's always a purpose for every song. It could be for a record label to hear it or for an artist to then think, oh, I want to work with you more. And it just helps in the journey. You know, it kind of reminded me when I was reading about your story.

There was a 2013 rockumentary called 20 Feet from Stardom. And the film shines a light on these long overdue spotlight on unsung backing vocalists who contributed to the biggest hits of rock and pop history, but didn't step into the spotlight themselves. But I'm glad to say you do write your own music. music too. You've been releasing tracks under a new name, Cammy. A lot of artists do say that it can be quite torturous, like actually making an album or a body of work. It's so stressful. But I can only do what is right for me and I have to let that out. I can't keep that kind of music inside of me.

I go crazy. But yeah, it's very stressful. It's stressful. You did have what you called, talking about your success people might find unusual in the sense of you want to talk about sharing your flop era. Oh yeah. Oh my God. I flop every day. Yeah, 100%. I feel like there is something I haven't got done. There's something I haven't achieved. And I think when you're an ambitious person, that's like a curse that you're gifted with is that feeling of never actually fulfilling what you wanted to do. There's always more. Do you ever take the time to look back and see everything you've achieved? I do. When you give me intros like that, I do. I'm going to give you another one. In 2023, you were honoured with the Ivor Novello Award for Outstanding Song Collection, the Young

black female recipient and only a handful of women to have won it including Lily Allen who won this year's award last week less than 20% of credited songwriters are women.

Historically women have been left uncredited despite co-writing major hits. Wow. But you've managed to break through that. I don't know how. I think I'm a very tenacious person.

I would say so. I'm going to get yourself. I don't know if Ellie Kildon was here earlier, our rugby player. I'm feeling some of the same traits from both of you. in the green room about this because honestly I think you just have to not stop you have to keep going and for me especially as a black woman I felt like I had so much to prove so much to want to

inspire others by and yeah my mom has an MBA yes she's incredible and I think having her as an example I think was you know incredible for me I just knew I could do anything so I just don't believe in the word no I really do I hate when people tell me I can't do something it just drives me even more to want to do it there's a motto we were talking about mottoes this morning I know you've set up your own label to nurture up and coming artists. Yes. Maybe that is the piece of advice, is it? Don't accept no?

Absolutely not. It should make you literally want to like throw up if someone's telling you you can't do something. How dare you say that? How dare you speak on my life? And it's other people's fears that often make them feel like we can't do something when it's got nothing to do that. Explore that a bit more.

I feel like when people say no and say, oh, you shouldn't do that or, oh, you sure you want to do that? I think that's their own fear. They're speaking about their own fear that they can't do something, not. that you can't. And so they'll sometimes give you advice about your life, which is completely the wrong advice to hear. You need to be around people who want to encourage and uplift

and make you feel like anything as possible. And I think I'm lucky enough to be surrounded by a lot of people like that in my life. The radiation is. 100%. The people around me just don't think that things are impossible. Everyone, my management, my family are like, yeah, if you want to go out to that, why not? You want to write a book?

Why not? You want to have a number one? Why not? Why not? Why not? there. We're going to leave it on why not. It's been wonderful having you in, Camille. I want to thank you for coming and joining us this morning.

Also, congratulations again on the MPG Inspiration Award. What an achievement. And good luck as well with the music that we are so blessed to be able to listen to. I want to let people know that tomorrow, Dr. Kimberly Crenshaw, U.S. civil rights activist and legal scholar who coined the term intersectionality. We'll be talking to Anita about her memoir. Don't miss that. Also, the 25-year-old woman who is piloting

combat drones in Ukraine. Thanks for your company today. I'll join Anita tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm David Bodeal and from Radio 4 and the History Podcast. I'm hosting 60 Years of Hurt, a series about football and Englishness in which we try and define what Englishness actually is via the roller coaster history of the England men's football team. It includes contributions from various English gentlemen and women, Stephen Fry, David C. and England sports psychologist Pippa Grange and many others. England may or may not win the World Cup in 26,

but maybe you'll find out why it means so much to us as a country that they might do. Listen to 60 Years of Hurt on BBC Sounds.