Woman's Hour - Rugby World Cup, Tracey Ullman, Janet Skinner, Ava Pickett

Episode Date: September 29, 2025

The Rugby World Cup has been the culmination of a stellar summer of women's sport and a second huge win for an England women's side. And there's lots to celebrate for the other home nations too. The final broke records across the board - it was the most watched women's rugby match ever on UK television and had a record-breaking number of spectators in the stadium too. Nuala McGovern is joined by Maggie Alphonsi, who was part of the England squad that won the 2014 Women’s Rugby World Cup in France, Deborah Griffin, organiser of the first Women's Rugby World Cup back in 1991, now the first female President of the Rugby Football Union, and Sarah Massey, Managing Director of the tournament. Many of us will remember the multi-award winning Tracey Ullman from her TV shows A Kick up the Eighties, Three of a Kind, as well as The Tracey Ullman Show, which was a hit on both sides of the Atlantic. Tracey joins Nuala to discuss her latest role in the film Steve, in which she plays the deputy head in a last chance reform school for troubled teenage boys. Janet Skinner fell victim to the Post Office Horizon IT scandal, and was temporarily paralysed after the stress of her ordeal. She was wrongly convicted of false accounting in 2007 and sentenced to nine months in prison after the faulty software said £59,000 had gone missing from her branch account in Hull. Janet has now received an offer of full financial redress, which is 15% of her compensation claim. Janet shares her story and her reaction to that offer with Nuala. As people across the country celebrate the 250th anniversary of the birth of Jane Austen, a new retelling of her book Emma is currently on at the Rose Theatre in Kingston upon Thames. It swaps drawing room duets for dance floor fillers and this Emma Woodhouse is fresh from failing at Oxford University and back in her Essex hometown for the summer, along with her closest friend Harriet, a total dating disaster. It's been written by Ava Pickett who tells Nuala about her modern retake of this Austen classic.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Andrea Kidd

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Well, did you spend part of your weekend watching the Women's Rugby World Cup? If you did, you were not alone. 80,000 turned up to Twickenham, another 5.8 million tuned in on the telly. There were tries, there were tears as England's Red Roses beat Canada in the final. What we're going to hear from some women who have been swept up in the magic of this tournament, President of the Rugby Football Union, Deborah Griffin,

Maggie Alfonsi, former England international rugby player and commentator of course, and Sarah Massey, director of the tournament. And I want to know from you what did the women's rugby World Cup mean? Give me your stories. Tell me about your

inspiration. I know so many people have felt touched by it. I'd love to hear from you. 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or voice note, it's 0-3-700-100-444. Also today, we have Tracy Ullman. Now, that woman has a lot of strings to her bow, singer, screenwriter, producer, director, author,

and of course also actor. And she is starring in Steve, this powerful new film about a residential school for troubled boys. Really looking forward to speaking to her, and we do have a lot to talk about. Also, we're going to hear from a victim of the post office, a rise in IT scandal. This woman was temporarily paralysed by the stress of her ordeal. She's been offered 15% of her compensation claim,

but she tells us why she will not accept it. And we have the playwright, Ava Pickett, who has rewritten the Jane Austen classic Emma for a modern audience, all coming up this hour. But let us get in to the women's rugby World Cup. the culmination of a stellar summer of women's sport. The second huge win for an England women's side

this summer and lots to celebrate for other home nations as well. The final on Saturday alluded to it there. It broke records across the board. It was the most watched women's rugby match ever on UK television and it had a record breaking in the grounds in the stadium

as well. And with me to digest it all is Maggie Alfonzi who represented England 74 times 74 times, a part of the England squad that won the 2014 Women's Rugby World Cup in France. This time, if you've been watching, you'll know she's been covering the tournament with the BBC. Also, Deborah Griffin,

organiser of the first women's rugby world cup back in 1991, the first female president of the Rugby Football Union. Big congratulations on that as well. Well, welcome to both of you. Let me see. Are you hoarse? Are you bleary-eyed, Maggie? Tell me a little bit about what it was like. on Saturday. Good morning. I would say I'm a little bit hoarse, but I'm making it and making it

work. How amazing was Saturday, just to be able to see the red roses get that victory in front of just under 82,000 people at Alianz Twickenham Stadium. Honestly, I was a bit emotional. I'll be honest, I don't cry in public. And I cried. Tears of joy. Tears of joy. That's correct. I mean, And, you know, I was very fortunate to be part of the England team that won that World Cup in 2014. And that was special, incredibly special. And the team before me won it in 1994. So for us to be able to do it, 11 years after us winning it, is a historic moment. And how different, however, Maggie, you know, as you're standing there, taking it all in, thinking back to 11 years previously, what's changed?

It's very different. What's changed? So I would say the visibility. has changed. As you touched on at the start of the show, you know, 5.8 million people tuned in to watch that. That is crazy and like you've really highlighted as well, it's the most watched rugby match of this year. But also, you know, to have that many people in the stadium was special as well. But I think what has been the biggest change has been the way women's rugby has been received, you know, in the stands, there were men, there were boys, there were girls,

there were women, there were families, there were people who were wearing jerseys and, you know, some people would have had jerseys on them that says Ellie Killed Dunn's name on the back or, you know, Jess Breach. That really highlights to me. Our game has gone through a real transformation in a sense that it's now at the forefront. You know, people want to watch women's sport. Women's rugby is now professional. You know, all of those things have really highlighted a change. And this tournament has, I would say, has done huge. amount for the women's game and I do believe post this we will start to see more people come to watch games more watch more women play but also start to invest into the sport more

Debra good to have you with this as well how much fun was it to hand out those medals yesterday it was it was super fun like maggie I was very emotional I thanked all the all the players Canadian players and England players because you know they they made the show they made it entertaining and they put in so much hard work and training and I've just thanked them all. It was wonderful. Now, you have been central to the development of the women's game. You organised the first women's rugby World Cup in 1991 in Cardiff as we take a look back. The highs, the lows, that journey.

How would you describe it? It's not been a straight curve. It's been lots of steps up and down. As Maggie said, you know, that we suddenly, We are very much more accepted now, but along the way, there's been ups and downs and remember the Red Rose is getting their contracts in full-time contracts in 2018. That was a big step, but that came off the back of winning the World Cup in 2014. You know, there's been so many highs and lows. And can I just say so many people involved in that, many of them volunteers that have just grown the game.

And that's why we wanted to host this World Cup was to grow the game, obviously, particularly in England, but thanks to the coverage and I acknowledge the BBC in their role in this, you know, it's gone across the world as well. And that's what we want. We want to grow the game. We want to have more women and boys and girls and men playing the game. And obviously, this focuses very much on the women and girls. Yeah, even if I think about Canada, that was not a country, I assume. associated with women's rugby before this tournament, but there you go. Maggie, let's talk as well about its impact.

Kind of closer to home, of course, talked about England there with Deborah, but Scotland made their first quarterfinals since 2002. Ireland also made the quarterfinals, Wales fielding, more professional players. What do you think, any of those facts say about the state of women's rugby beyond England? I think what I get is the fact that. that the game is moving the dials. So we're starting to see more governing bodies, more nationalities say we should be investing in our women's teams.

I think what we noticed during the World Cup, there were more conversations about what are governing bodies doing for their women's teams. And Scotland had a big discussion with regards to some of those players are not getting contracts post this World Cup. And actually it led to a very healthy debate about why are they not getting those contracts and what should they be doing?

And it's the same with regards to Wales. Unfortunately, Wales didn't have the best tournament, but the emphasis still should be on, we need to do more to support our women's team. So I guess what we've found from this World Cup is that everyone is in very different situations. Yes, we say that our teams have professional contracts, but those contracts do vary across the board.

But what we've highlighted from the World Cup is that there is now highlighting, if we invest, your teams will achieve more. And we've seen that with England, and like Debbie's really highlighted. Professional contracts, they've had further investment with regards to match fees, bonuses, etc. And also our domestic game,

so the Premiership Women's Rugby League here is very strong and we've seen more plays from across the world come to play in that league. So what we're seeing as a result of that is we're getting better quality in terms of our delivery on the field and that's led to us winning that World Cup. So if countries can do that, invest,

you will get the results. Lots of messages coming in. As there always is what rugby, I have to say, when I throw it out to our listeners. For me, says this listener, there were two incredibly powerful things about the women's rugby World Cup. Firstly, as a woman who started playing rugby in 1991,

it was a representation of everything that has changed since then, the incredible progress that has been made off the pitch in terms of being able to represent themselves as brave, strong and committed to fair play in sports. Secondly, and probably more importantly, was a celebration that it was of all. all different shapes and sizes of bodies

and the impact that will have on young women around the world to see girls who are at the peak of physical performance, large, small, short, tall was absolutely inspiring. You want to pick up on that, Maggie? I think it's beautiful. I think both of those comments really do highlight what women's rugby is all about. It doesn't matter who you are, what your size, what your shape,

what your ability is, there's a place for you. And I think the tournament really highlighted that. All of the different nationalities, brought something to the tournament. And I think that's one thing we need to really talk about, especially in regards to women's rugby, celebrating body confidence, celebrating being strong and actually bringing your authentic self

to the things that you do very well. And I think the tournament really highlighted that. Let me bring in Sarah Massey, who I spoke to earlier. She's the managing director of the tournament. That is one big job as well. And given all those record-breaking stats, I asked Sarah, how did she do it? Well, I think we started off with, yeah, a really bold ambition of what we wanted to try and achieve for both, you know, for the Women's Rugby World Cup.

We put a really clear plan in place. And then there was lots and lots of hard work by an amazing team within the team that we have within Rugby World Cup and World Rugby and World Rugby and so many of our partners across England rugby and UK sport. And of course, all of our amazing eight host cities and venues across the country. and all of the 16 teams that came along and all of the fans that came to watch as well. Yeah, I mean, it's just been the most watched and most diverse and most empowering tournament I think many of us have ever seen

and been involved with. It's just been amazing. Well, I mentioned some of the figures there, as you do. And we heard before the tournament began that it would run at a loss. But I wonder, with demand is so high, some stadiums at capacity, are you now thinking we could have charged more for those tickets and made more money?

No, I mean, it's one of those things. I mean, you know, hindsight is a really good thing. You know, people have said, could you have gone to bigger stadiums? Could you have, yeah, could you have charged more money? You know, I think where we started and where, with our ambition, we got it absolutely right. You know, we were really ambitious and we absolutely backed ourselves. We made our ticket prices accessible and affordable because we wanted as many people to come to watch those matches. as possible. And I think what has been so wonderful to see because of that is the number of

non-England matches that were almost sold out. You know, 92% of our sailable capacity across the tournament were sold. And many of those were for watching matches that didn't involve England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales, which is just incredible. So, you know, we made sure that the final tickets were £95. So it was, it was reflective of the fact that that, you know, that was a World Cup and you were coming to see the best athletes in the world, both the bronze final and the final match itself. So yes,

we were really ambitious right from the start. We backed ourselves and we've absolutely delivered, as you say, on so many of those stats and we know that the fans that were in those stands just loved being there. Because you talked about the magic of what this tournament brought on and off the pitch.

But can you turn that success into lasting growth? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we said all along that our job as the Women's Rugby World Cup 2025 team was to make sure that once every four years you get this pinnacle moment when you get maximum chance to raise the standards and to raise the visibility. So we knew that we needed to raise as much visibility and awareness as possible for the sport. We knew we needed to bring in new audiences, which we know we've done. I mean, 50% of the people attending had never been to a women's rugby World Cup match

before or even a women's rugby match before. And we know that 95% of people, when we ask them in the post-event survey, you know, would you come to a women's rugby match again, all said yes. So this is what we set up. You know, we set up to be the pathway for the future, both in terms of girls and boys being inspired to play rugby, in more people being, going down to their local rugby clubs and being involved, just volunteering or being involved in their community. And just more people following those amazing personalities that we've seen across the tournament. And not just, you know, not just the Red Roses, but every single team has captured the imagination. And part of that was just because, A, they're brilliant personalities, but they

were able to be themselves. You know, they were able to let their personalities shine. They were able to just celebrate individuality. And there was so much rich content coming. We had content creators embedded in each of the teams. They were able to get that, you know, know, lovely behind-the-scenes content that meant that everybody felt that they could get to know the players. The players were really accessible, you know, going around after the matches,

making sure they were engaging with fans. And I just think that's just what has been one of the stand-out things, is just the bond and that powerful connection that we've seen between the players and the fans and almost just the fans themselves as well. I know hindsight is 2020, but considering the success,

is there one thing perhaps you might do differently next time? I mean, to be honest, the only thing we could do is go bigger, you know, so, so, yeah, and, and, and, and make sure that we were engaging even more people, if that, if that is even possible, but that would, yeah, that is absolutely the dream that, you know, the next time we would be taking this out to, to weigh more people. Would we have done things differently? No, I think we got it absolutely spot on and the team that have delivered it, as I said, have just been amazing in terms of doing that. But yeah, the only thing to do is go bigger and that's what we're obviously going to be striving for

that more people start engaging with the domestic leagues, more people start engaging in their local community clubs and supporting. And yeah, let's just make sure that we are, yeah, being bigger, even bigger and better next time. Sarah Massey there, managing director of the women's rugby world cup. interesting talking about the local teams as well here's a woman I'm a woman's rugby coach of 20 years

shout out to Maggie who came to see us a few years ago my team is the Tiger Lily's we train in Peckham I was a volunteer at the incredible final there's been a sea change about women in non-traditional sports my players are now proud to describe themselves as rugby players Deborah what do you think could be done if it's from the government

or elsewhere in getting the sport to the next level Well, I think it's wrong to think we haven't been doing anything. We've got a four-year legacy program impact 25, and we've done three years of it. So we've qualified 1,500 female match officials and coaches. We've invested a lot in our clubs to get them better changing facilities, better female toilets, better female social spaces. And that's all with the idea of people coming into the clubs and feeling welcome and being able to play. So we've spent three years and there's a lot more to it as well. We've got partnerships

with the likes of the scouts and the girl guides, even the Women's Institute. So we want to make our clubs really embedded in their communities and we want to be there welcoming more girls, boys, into the clubs and we've been preparing them for that. So I'm really hopeful. I'm not sure we could have done much more. I think we've done a really good legacy program. We've got one more year to run. And I think we're going to see the results of that. There's Rugby Fest this weekend. For people who want to hold on to the magic, what can people expect? So go down to your local clubs. Some of them will have the Red Roses out and about in them, but the clubs will be celebrating rugby. That's all rugby. So please, you know, if you've never been in a rugby club, but you're

interested in, you've been watching the tournament, go down to your rugby club this weekend. There'll be loads on celebrating the game and you'll be welcome. And, you know, just like the game for all shapes and sizes, so is a rugby club. There's positions of volunteering that you can do as well as, you know, get involved in playing as well if that's what you can do.

So they are wonderful places. So please get down there. Biddy got in touch. She says, I loved every minute. The final day gave me a great wave of emotion for the women of New Zealand, France, Canada and England. But what I came away with was a sense of responsibility to my local team,

North Walsham in Norfolk. We must invest and support the local teams if the legacy of our wonderful Red Roses is to survive and grow. Not just for you, the big games. Let's agree to go to the small ones too. Maggie. Absolutely spot on.

You know, my local rugby club, I make it my goal now to make sure I try and go down and support and watch. And I think that's what we want from this tournament. It isn't just about the elite end, the national end, but actually how do we support our local clubs?

How do we go out and just have a purpose, not just necessarily playing, but like Debbie has already highlighted, can we volunteer? You know, can we just show up and just be a good member of the community? Because that's how we're going to really grow our game. Okay, here's the tough question. Can you pick a player out of the tournament that would be, oh, Maggie's giving me a look for those that can't see her face. Go to Debbie first.

Okay, I'll like Debbie first. Deborah, what do you reckon? A tournament, a player that... Is somebody who you want to pick out who kind of summed up this tournament for you? Well, I think the three players who were in the player of the tournament were all worthy winners. Meg Jones is certainly a favourite player of mine

within the England team. But Stephanie de Good, who actually won it, just epitomised a brilliant rugby player, but and a team player so for me she was the deserved winner. So you have gone out on a limb there Maggie

Yeah do you know what I'm going to I don't want to just go just to England because there's so many people so Eva Wafers one person who basically had got injured prior to the World Cup starting and then managed to come back for the Ireland versus

New Zealand game which is the quarterfinal and she put in a phenomenal effort But unfortunately, she didn't necessarily progress any further because they played against France and then they got knocked out. But the play that I'm going to say, because I know I'm giving you too many names now, but it is Meg Jones. I think Meg Jones is really special. Last year, she lost both of her parents within a four-month period. So that resilience and that character has just epitomized, not just her, but England. I think their attitude about not letting anything stop them, you know, when you get down, you get back up.

and she's just a really special character, a special person. I think she really showed that picking up that trophy. I remember just seeing her face and just being happy and relief and wishing her parents were there to observe that. So I'd say, I'm going to say Meg Jones. Okay, Meg Jones. We had Ruby Toey in here last week as well. I'm sorry for you.

I'm so sorry. Oh, my God. It was wonderful. We do have that clip online if people would like to watch a little bit or listen back on BBC Sounds, also a force of nature. I have to say just like my guests have been this morning we had Deborah of course in Debra Griffin and Maggie Alfonzi

thanks to both of you Sophie de Good that Deborah was mentioning that is a winner even though on the Canadian team I suppose coming in with silver but lots of people of course loving the way she plays she's their number eight and IFA of course for Irish people is very well known

Maggie and Deborah enjoy the rest of the week continue to float on on the magic of the tournament And I do want to let you know that the end of the women's rugby world cup marks the final event of the women's summer of sport but we are looking back about what has been achieved and we want to hear from you. Have you been inspired by what you've seen?

Have you taken up sport perhaps for the first time? Are you a coach and you've seen more women and girls inspired by what they have seen over the summer? We'd love to hear from you. Get in touch. It's the usual ways 84844 to text social media at BBC Woman's Hour

or you can email us through our website WhatsApp message or voice note the same number 0-3-700-100-444 We would love to hear from you It's been amazing, hasn't it? It's been great so much joy and escapism with sport And let me turn into another woman who brings a lot of joy and escapism

That is Tracy Ullman She is starring in a brilliant new film It's called Steve It's about a residential school for troubled teenage boys She plays the deputy head Amanda. We're going to speak about that. But as you probably know, Tracy's career has been long and varied. Many of us loved her TV shows.

A kick up the 80s, three of a kind. Tracy breaks the news. Then she had a move to the States in 1985. And she started in the Tracy Ullman show, the first British woman to be offered her own television sketch show in the States. More recently, she played one of my favorites. City Councilwoman Irma Kostrovsky in Larry David's hit comedy series, Curb Your Enthusiasm.

She's won 12 American Comedy Awards, seven primetime Emmy Awards, a BAFTA, a Golden Globe. But that is, I suppose, some of the introduction that I had to you. But of course, there's just this amazing career that you've had since then. And you're here because of Steve. And in this film, you're a character actress. And I've heard you say previously from a couple of years ago that being a character actress was the dream ever since you watched Ken Loach's 1960s television drama. Cathy come home.

Yes. So how does it feel? Well, it's like I've made that circle now. I've got, you know, I've had such a terrific time. That's a beautiful song, they don't know. The late great Kirsty McCall. I mean, she gave me that gift. Let me sing that beautiful song.

It means a lot to me over the years. It was number one in Ireland. I know it was. I probably helped you get there. I couldn't get to number one here. I was behind Karma, Karma, Karma, Karma, Camelium. Now, when I was a kid, I remember watching Kathy come home and seeing those kids being separated from their mother at that train station

and I thought, this is real, this can't be a TV program. And Ken Loach has just actually reviewed Steve and loves it. I just was shown of the, and I'm so proud that he even knows who I am, you know. It means a lot to me. I used to sit for hours as a kid, you know, pretending to smoke, you know, my mirror at bedtime, just talking like, was in a documentary, you know, and just like, oh, my husband's in prison, the kids are driving me mad, and I'm really tired, you know, and my mum would go, shut up, go to bed, stop being

in a documentary. I just loved it. I mean, I've always loved Michael Apted seven-up going all the way up to, well, it'll be 70 up. I mean, I've watched those over the years, and I find it's so affecting. So it's about the human condition. It's about the human, I love people, I love the poignancy of people, I love the vulnerability, the sadness of people. And I love to laugh, but I, you know, I'm not laughing at people ever. And, yeah, I look at Dandy Nichols and my dear friend, the late great Joan Plowright, who died this year, and Maggie Smith and Judy Dench. And I'm like, I want to, you know, be that next generation.

Well, you do that in this film. So to let people know a little bit about it, it takes place mostly over one day, an incredibly chaotic day. And you's crew is coming into the school to do a piece on it, the local MP is, showing up. The staff are facing a funding crisis. But there is the behaviour of the boys that are in your care, your Amanda and Steve, who's played by Killian Murphy. And I should also, of course, say the teacher, Shola, Little Sims. Oh, little Sims. And your character is really a maternal figure, I would say, trying to keep everything together while things are unraveling all around her. How did you approach her?

Well, as I've got to say, Killian Murphy is amazing to be in a film with him. I've met him a few years ago and we got on very well and his wife Yvonne is just great and she heard me on a podcast and she said, that's who you need in this film, Killian, so thank you. Which podcast was it?

Louis Thoreau. You know, I listen to that. It's wonderful. I never do anything so I don't want to talk about myself. My kids made me do Louis Theroux, fabulous. And she was listening to it. and reminded her jog them so you know you never know do you that's so i wonder what part of it or what was it you were speaking about that she i don't know me talking about loving boys and being a bit of

a naughty person at school i don't know it's uh and so i got to be a part of this and um it's uh he's uh he's amazing you know he'd just come off his big oscar win and oppenheimer and he he's a fabulous he wants to do something on an ensemble and something that means something and his dedication in this film i mean it's it's exhausting to watch him i mean it's an amazing role and he wanted me to play his deputy head and so i it was very improvisational this film we have a belgian director tim milance and it was you know he just got a hold of us like he had all these boys in the film that he'd that were either professional actors or people he'd found that never acted before and he worked with them for a few weeks and then he just sort of like threw me in one day and said

in there, talk to them, find a way through, improvise with them. And I've done loads of things in my career. I'm pretty brave. It was terrifying. They were so feral. They'd worked up this boy energy, this drum and bass music they were listening to, and all being together and hitting each other and being difficult because that's where they, their backgrounds, why they're in this sort of facility. And it was really hard, no life. For the first couple of days, I said, I don't know how to get through to them. I don't know how to, you know, I said to Killiam, you know, we are in charge here. But I did because Jay, who plays shy, is astonishing. And he's very, and they're so vulnerable. And I love boys, you know, and I think they are vulnerable. I have two

grandsons now and they're just, they can be feral, you know, but you, they're just full of hormones and full of rage. And, and the complexity of the. characters and the unpredictability perhaps as well of when somebody might lash out. And of course, when I'm watching it, I realise there are facilities like this and there are people doing jobs like Amanda does and like Steve does in this as well. I'm going to play a little bit of it actually just to give people a flavour. They are hugely complicated, intricate human beings who require enormous amounts of what we now call special educational care.

It's exhausting, complicated, demanding work and it's just destroying us. We are underpaid, we're understaffed, we're chronically under-resourced. I am part prison guard, I'm part of nurse, I'm part battle axe, I'm part mummy, I'm part, you know, you get me. And you go on to say, however, that you really love them. Yes, yes. And this is Amanda speaking to the film crew,

about her job. You have alluded to the fact there that you feel it is difficult for boys. Why is that? It's difficult for everyone now. But, you know, and I think programs, wonderful points, like adolescents have pointed that up recently about the pressure on boys

and this unrestrained violence they're seeing thrown at them. I just look at a few video games that my grandsons already want to watch. I think, oh, my God. At least my son, Johnny, was one of those lovely boys. It wouldn't even go to paintball parties. I don't want to go to the valley, going to a darkened room and pretend to shoot guns of paint at people.

He said, it's horrible, mum. And I'd think, thank God I've got this kind of boy. It's just hard for everyone. I spoke to a lady in special education, a wonderful lady called Yvonne, who really inspired me. And somebody said to me, oh, it's such a male film. But there's such beautiful moments. No, nor do I know.

There's wonderful moments. when Tyrone is speaking to the actress Emily Watson about how he's let his mum down ultimately and he loves his mum. They all talk about the women in their lives, their grandmothers, their mothers, and they've let them down and they wish they could go back to being little boys

and feel that love and security again and they don't know why they've exploded like this and they feel bad about it. The acting is phenomenal. It's phenomenal. These boys are phenomenal. And Max Porter, he wrote it, a wonderful author and he so understands this world.

and he was at school in the 90s and he just cared so much and we wrote so much and it gave us all individual moments which were terrific. And it's interesting, it's in the 90s as well another aspect that many listeners it will resonate so many...

But it comes at a time it was like 96 just at the end of an 11-year Tory government and things were, you know, this school was started by us in this film with private money, private equity money which gets, as we all see in the film, it's very, it gets taken away from us a lot of it. And it's an interesting period of time.

No one's on a phone. You know, you don't see the boys on a phone. They're connecting with each other more. And that has changed so much, obviously. It's also filmed in chronological order, I read. How unusual is that? That is unusual. But really, it was really only one location.

It was that big house that served as our school. And so we could do it in chronological order, which is a real luxury for everybody, for the actors and the whole team. and it was wonderful. Has it scratched an itch playing a character, actress, or has it just ignited a bug? It's just lovely to prove that I can do it.

You know, sometimes, you know, I've loved what I've done. I love what I've done, I've been a kamikaze comedy person. I've done crazy stuff. And, you know, to be nicknamed, labelled wacky, zany crazy. I mean, I'm a very serious person at times. And I started off really wanting to do this because of people like Ken Loach. No, it's lovely to be recognised for that.

I do love having a laugh as well. I mean, I'm currently on Ted Lassau and having a wonderful laugh and improvising and doing it. But, no, I'm very proud to be in this film and I'm very proud that they chose me to be in it. Thank you, Yvonne Murphy again, and Gillian to trust me to be in it. And I got moments in this one.

I've never been given so much time to be real and to think about the director. I've never been given a direction like this. This guy Tim would say, go in and take as much time as you want look at Killian and say whatever you want you know it's like wow normally you come in you hit your mark

that's light and someone's checking that it was all about you know and then I would do another take and you go take even longer you know it shows though I was totally gripped from the beginning of it it's so compelling it's so raw so very much recommend

people to catch it Steve and also the film in the 90s as well I was thinking that's, at that point, you were in the States, really, right? And you had, of course, this string of successful shows on both sides of the Atlantic. Because you're such an acute observer of life, I'm wondering how did you find the American way of life compared to the British way of life and, you know, why you moved to. Because I lived in the States for years for about. Did you, where you live? I was in New York the whole time.

My plan was to go to San Francisco. It never happened. I know. I know. I know. Never left. No. Everyone says that, yeah.

I know, I just, my husband, who I married in 83, he's an East End guy, you know, but he lived in Lookout Mountain in L.A., and he wanted me to, we got married there. And I had a hit, they don't know, was a big hit in America, introduced me to America. I'd done a movie with Meryl Street, plenty, and that became big in America. And I just love living everywhere to get the opportunity to go to America at that time and make a show. that, you know, people like, they weren't women with their own shows in England, really. I mean, we have wonderful Victoria Wood and French and Saunders geniuses. But to be, it was just astonishing.

And I got a whole new, because as you know, I'm a bit of a parrot. I got to visit. I do know that, Tracy. I like to, I would travel around America and I'd go to Toledo, Ohio. I'd go to Nashville. I'd go to Atlanta. I'd go to, you know, and learn all these new accents and have experiences and study all these people that I love. And then put them in a show.

And I just got very lucky and I really love America too. I love my American life. I love my British life. I'm very lucky. I really am and my children were born there. And I still have a very strong American identity. I really do. Now come on, baby.

So you're in New York. Come on, I'm walking here. No, come on, talk to me. Come on, I'm trying to walk here, baby. I'm feeling like I kind of want you and I'm making myself stop. You're tough. I can see. Look at you.

I'm trying my best. Yeah. But I'm wondering. Because when I first went to the States, so let's say early 90s, American comedy was so different to British comedy. They were worlds away. I feel that distance isn't there so much anymore. What do you think?

Yeah, oh no. I mean, it's so many shows that were in America that had translated from, you know, England. There were so many changed formats. I don't know. I think American comedy was always kinder. And then it got less satirical as we are here. But I don't know.

I think we've always appreciated. shows like Cheers and they loved, you know, Sanford and Son was from Steptoe and Son. And, you know, you look at you, it's very, yeah, I think it's similar now. And we just watch each other's TV somewhere. But there's a great respect for British shows. You know, something like Fleabag comes along and the enormous respect for it. Something like adolescence, it's intrinsically British and there's enormous respect for it. But comedy, I don't know, when I wanted to do this TV show with James L. Brooks, he made me watch American

shows from the 50s to get a background in it. And I saw things like Ernie Kovacs that were purely Benny Hill really. I saw lots of but one thing I did notice that women were given a chance to do comedy in America much earlier than they were here. Gilda Radner, Saturday Night Live.

Lucille Ball. I loved. Carol Burnett, you know. And Imaging Coaker on your show of shows and Elaine May and so I was excited by that. I think we were ahead of the game in America with women. So we've touched on a few aspects of your career

But is it character acting, do you think, that you want to try and do next? Yeah, I want to be in something funny as well and just, but meaningful, you know, and just be with a nice ensemble. It was so wonderful to be with Larry, David and Curb Your Enthusiasm. I mean, I watched that with kind of, what would I say, white knuckles holding on. It was so great. And he's the best. He's secretly a very lovely man.

And he'll hate me saying that. He put it under wraps, exactly, the big secret. That was, oh, to do something like that, every year as well and to be considered to know that I can handle the heavy stuff too is wonderful.

What do you think you learn because you talked about working beside Killian Murphy and finding that so enlightening. Is there one thing you took away from it as an actor? With him, no vanity,

just total dedication and he has to go as far as he goes to get what he wants and he's prepared to and just he's fantastic. I call him the Rolls Royce because I've worked

with a few hundred. some Tesla's. Let's not get political. Let's not get political. And he is the Bentley Rolls. He's just the real deal. Well, also the real deal is Tracy Ollman.

Her film, Steve, is out now in selected cinemas, also on Netflix from the 3rd of October. As I mentioned, I loved it. Congratulations on it. Good. Thank you so much. I hope you'll come back to us again soon. I will because you've got a window in the studio now.

I've got two. Portholes. Original, might I ask. In the BBC. Woman's Hour. Also, speaking of Women's Hour, I need to let you know that we've just launched The Woman's Hour Guide to Life,

a brand new series of conversations available only on BBC Sounds. It's your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle, and everything in between. You're going to hear expert insights and honest conversations that will help you tackle life's challenges and opportunities.

So series one focuses on the juggle and our first episode is all about friendship, how to squeeze in time with our friends despite our very busy lives and why we should be be making time with our friends, our friends, a priority. Here is a clip from psychologist, Dr. Marisa G. Franco. So when we look at the research on longevity, for example, exercise decreases our risk of death by 24 percent, diet by 25 percent, and having a large diverse social network, not just

one person, decrease our risk of death by 45 percent. And so that's like the value of diet and exercise combined. And I just want to emphasize that large diverse social network because I think Sometimes when you have a family, it can feel like, well, I am getting like social connection, right? But there's actually three different types of loneliness. There's intimate loneliness, which is a desire for a close intimate connection. Then there's relational loneliness, which is a desire for someone as close to you as a friend. And then there's collective loneliness, which is the desire to be part of a group working towards a collective goal. Which means that, I think, you know, like many of us have the experience in the pandemic, too, that even if you're around one person and you really like that person, you can still feel lonely without having friends.

Well, to hear more, just go to BBC Sounds, search for Woman's Hour and on the feed there, you will find the Woman's Hour Guide to Life. Thanks for your messages coming in on rugby. My 16-year-old daughter is a referee. She's ambitious to referee an international at Twickenham, maybe even a World Cup final. I really believe she can do it. I'm ridiculously proud of her. Now, I want to turn to a woman who fell victim to the post office arise in IT scandal and was temporarily paralysed after the stress of her ordeal. She has been offered 15% of her compensation claim.

Janet Skinner was wrongly convicted of false accounting in 2007. She was sentenced to nine months in prison after the faulty software said £59,000 had gone missing from her branch account in Hull. She has now received an offer of full financial redress, but it is a fraction of what she claimed. The government says it made every effort to make full and fair offers to all claimants. I spoke to Janet just before we came on air and I asked her what her reaction. action was to the offer that came through.

I was devastated. I was absolutely devastated. I couldn't believe what I was reading, if I'm honest. Because? Because of the 15%. I mean, we have our claims done by experts. It's not just

numbers that are just pulled together and it's literally laid there in front of them. And 15% in your mind does not come close to covering what you should be awarded in terms of what you've gone through? Exactly. I mean, this is the thing.

If our numbers are just being put together and not being done professionally, then you can understand it and understand them pushing you back. But to have it done professionally by a number of people, and I mean, I've had also have five medical reports and an occupational health report, and to come back with the 15% offer.

And I know listeners will be wondering, well, how much are we talking about here? But we cannot discuss the amount that you claimed legally. Can you explain, however, to our listeners, what happened to you? Yeah, I worked from the post office from 1994, worked my way up on my own office in 2004. and then in 2006 experienced balancing issues which led to a shortfall of £59,000,

had asked for an audit to be done, was relieved at the time, thinking that it was going to be resolved and they'd find the issue and that wasn't the process, the issue they was having, with me, they was just going to prosecute me and that's what they did. I was given a nine-month prison sentence since February 2007 and then lost my house later the year due to the fact that I couldn't pay the mortgage.

Then in 2008 it came after me again for the 11,000 pound compensation I was supposed to pay. And when the case concluded in August, late August 2008, 10 days, well, 12 days later, I ended up in hospital with a body breakdown, if you like. My body attacked itself. And I ended up paralysed from the neck down and I spent a couple of years learning to walk again. And this is just how my life has been. So traumatic. And you believe the paralysis that you suffered was due to the extreme stress that you were under because of the horizon scandal? Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, you've got it, there's 12 days. The last time I was in court was the 28th of August in 2008. And then they ended up in hospital on the 10th of September. And I spent four months in hospital. And I think that was even harder than when I was in. prison. And I mean, prison's hard. But I was able to self-care when I was in prison. But when I was in hospital, I couldn't even do self-care. So, I mean, I've lost abilities in every way possible. And when you say self-care, that is the issues of personal care, whether it's, it could be eating or

going to the bathroom or issues like that that are very personal and connected. I suppose at times to one's dignity that you felt could not be completed, that you couldn't do. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I had to learn to eat with a knife and fork that had sponges around them

because I couldn't even grip. To have a bath, I had to be hoisted about. I mean, I lost all of my dignity in everywhere. I've never felt so dependent on other people. And it's not a nice feeling.

to have your independence taken away from you, even down to prison. But then to have it, again, in the severity that I did in hospital, I don't think people really understand. I've never really made that part of my life very public. So have you decided how to respond to the redress offer that you've been given? Yes, we've rejected it. and was sort of like still awaiting a response to the rejection. We know the Department for Business and Trade said it didn't comment on individual cases

but that it took every effort to make the full and fair offers that an independent dispute resolution process was available to all applicants who are not content with their offer. They also said more than £1 billion worth of compensation has already been paid out to more than 8,000 victims and that the bulk of these payouts has been in the form of uncontested fixed payouts, either 75,000 or 600,000 pounds,

depending on the severity of the case. Yeah, but that's the blanket, that's just for the blanket, overturning convictions of people whose cases potentially are not worth as much as what they're offering. It's all right to took that number out, that $1 billion, but how much of that's gone out in legal fees as well? Because that's incorporated into that.

The legal fees, I know some people have talked about them as well, that they were, of course, incredibly high throughout this whole process as well. So what do you think will happen next? How are you feeling? I'm just going to keep pushing back until it's resolved in the way that's satisfactory for me. And I think, you know, a lot of people have going through the similar process. it's all the high value cases, that thing to be the ones that are getting punished the most. And some of us have suffered the most.

Do you know, it's just sort of a hangar-head and shame. May I ask you just before I let you go, how is your health now? My health will never change. My physical ability will never change. It'll get worse as I get older. It gets worse when I get cold when it's cold. So coming into the winter, winter months, my body tends to tense up a lot more and that'll never get better. Janet Skinner there.

You can read more about her story on the BBC online piece that is up as well. Thanks very much to her. Now, as people across the country celebrate the 250th anniversary of the birth of Jane Austen. A new retelling of her book, Emma, is currently on at the Rose Theatre in Kingston-Pompthames. It swaps the drawing-room duets for dance floor fillers. This is Emma Woodhouse, fresh from failing at Oxford University and back in her Essex hometown for the summer. She's with her best pal Harriet, who is a total dating disaster.

Some new themes, although some will very much recognise Austin and the original matchmaking and mischief that Emma likes to do. It's writer is Ava Pickett. She's here with me now. Good morning. Good morning. Hi, yeah. So I came into the news that you were the joint work. winner of the stage debut awards last night for another play of yours. Yeah, yeah, it's amazing.

Yeah, it was for 1536, which was on in May at the Almida. Yeah, it's great. When did you get the news? Last night. So, yeah, like, they had a big ceremony. It's really cool. I'd never been to one that, like,

where you find out that you win there and then. It was terrifying. Terrifying, but what does it do to your confidence, do you think? I mean, it's lovely, because it's, like, validating, and that's great. But I think it's just so lovely to be, like, recognised. And the whole point of those awards is the debut award.

So it really celebrates people at the beginning of their career or who are, like, making it, like, breaking out across all the different, like, forms of theatre. So it was just wonderful. It was just lovely. It was really lovely. And a lovely night and, like, really optimistic and full of joy. It was great. 1536 is all about Anne Boleyn.

Yes. You do have women at the centre of a lot of your work, which, of course, we love here. And you, like your Emma, come from Essex. Tell us a little bit of your retelling of the story. Yeah, so it's obviously set now. And when I read the novel, I mean, I'm a Pride and Prejudice gal, really. Me too. I know.

I feel so basic saying that, because I feel like everyone is. One word that I learned the obsequious. I always remember that. Yeah, it's so good. But Emma, I loved. And what I loved about the novel is her. She's so complicated and flawed. And it reminded me a lot of.

because she's 21 and she's so that sort of like steadfast confidence in that you know everything about the world and you know how everyone should live their lives and how they should conduct themselves not just with dating but everything and so it made me think a lot about that period in your life now rather than like hundreds of years ago so I really wanted to write something now that was I guess sort of like a love letter to that period where you feel really sort of lost and but also so overly confident that you know what you're doing and and I'm very loud about it, which is my Emma Woodhouse is very loud about how she thinks everyone should be living their lives. And very, very funny. Yeah. But, you know, you have talked about that being young is hard and trying to find your way can be difficult, which is rich material. How much should you base that on your own experiences? Oh, yeah, like a huge amount of it was about my own journey and my own experience sort of returning from uni, having like had such a bad. so I was like one of the first people in my family to go to university

and I'd made such a song and dance about going and how I was going to change the world and I was going to be this amazing person and then coming back and it not going quite the way I'd planned and feeling such shame about it and I think that I just think that like I say like it's so difficult to be young it's so difficult to find your way

to feel like you have time and I feel like Emma Woodhouse really feels in this version that she's running out of time and I think that's sort of the devastating thing about being 21 is you think you're old it's so mad. It is and it must be some sort of societal pressure or, you know, the beast of comparison.

But in your own instance, I heard you felt like you were going insane when you came back. Yeah, it was really difficult because I think I, like I said, like I'd been so loud about going to uni, it's such a big thing to say I'm going to go off and do drama. And then to have gone badly after, like just didn't get an agent,

couldn't get any work. Like, I felt mad. And I've returned back to, I'm from Clacton in Essex and to return home and my mum was great and was really like you've got time and I just felt like I didn't

and I just felt like I was going crazy going well what am I going to do with my life how am I going to live my life because it's so different from the version of my life I thought I was going to live and I think lots of people feel that especially at that age and you picked up a pen and you began writing

yeah I did I mean it really saved me like because I didn't know anyone and so I just one day I wrote a pilot called Essex Girl which was sort of based on my own experience. And then a wonderful producer read it actually who I'd auditioned four years before he read it

and sort of said, I think you're really good at this. And then it all sort of snowballed from there. It was amazing. And you started going on your way and not being an actor. It's kind of interesting because Tracy Olman was here as well. And now she's finally character actor after all. You know, she's done so much writing as well,

which is interesting. And there might be a question, do you ever want to find your way back to acting again? But now you are a writer. Did you feel pressure because Emma, of course, has had so many iterations, some that are purists, some who love Clueless, when you approached it? Yeah, I think it's like I've felt a huge amount of pressure, but I think all you can do in that situation is just know that you love the characters

and you protect the characters and you're going to honour that story as much as you can. And you kind of have to block all of that out and just say, what is the story that I'm going to tell and know that you're going to do the best that you can? What about being a female writer? kind of coming back to comedy again in a way or being able to write female characters as a woman. Do you think is different than for men? Yeah, I think, like, I spoke about this before about comedy.

Like, I think sometimes it can be ignored maybe with female writers the craft of being funny and, like, how rigorous you have to be with your writing. I think sometimes there's this narrative that, like, if you're funny or you write funny characters or you write comedy, it's sort of by accident. It's sort of like easy. and actually I work really hard to have scripts that are satisfyingly funny and that get like belly. It's really hard to make people laugh in unison.

Why do you think that there's that snobbery if that's the right word about it? I don't know. I think obviously it's like a history of that, I guess. And I think that I don't really know why. I mean, there's always that sort of age-old thing that's so ridiculous about like, oh, women funny. Do you remember that like that whole kind of narrative? I try and ignore it, but yeah.

And it's so frustrating because I think, oh, we're allowed to have a type of funny. We're allowed to be a type of funny. So explain that a little bit more. Yeah, like this sort of, like you're allowed to be sort of intellectually funny or sarcastic or rye, but silly. Sometimes people get funny when women are silly or clowning or farcical, yeah.

And so it's been so freeing to be able to do that. And I take it really seriously. Like, it's really hard. Comedy is really, really hard. And so, and Emma is, this version of Emma is, sort of very farcical and very silly and there's lots of falling over and doors hitting each other and stuff like that.

And so that has been really wonderful. But yeah, I definitely think sometimes female writers are kind of maybe dismissed for how funny they are and how much work that takes. I know you're working in Bazelerman now. On Joan of Arc? Yeah. I've only got about 30 seconds.

But tell me, what can we expect? You can expect a sort of a very similar thing of like a female-centered narrative. But this is a film? Big film, yeah, about Joan of Arc, who is a brilliant, interesting, complicated figure from history and it's just been amazing. It's been like a dream come true working on that, yeah.

It's great. Can you give us any kind of little secrets? Can I can't. My brain is like going mad in my head. What can I say? What can I not say? But it's been wonderful and like she's very much at the centre of that story. And yeah, I think it's going to be brilliant.

Well, maybe you'll come back and chat to us about that as well. But I do want to let people know that Emma is on. at the Rose Theatre in Kingston upon Thames and people saying it is laugh out loud, funny, so enjoy it all. I want to let people know that tomorrow I do have Andrea Reisborough in here, one of the five women playing Mary Paige Marlowe,

get the words on at the Old Vic, speaking to her and also Bridget Collins. Do join me tomorrow right here. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I think we need to be jolted out of thinking this is just a programme of tributes to people It isn't. It's an exploration, and we may not always like what we find.

It's such a cliched idea to say a chimpanzee. At least say an octopus or a wasp or something, God's sake. There's Elizabeth Day on the Pharaoh, Hapshetsud. The subsequent ruler defaced a lot of her statuary, and so we also have very little clue of what she actually looked like. Miles Jop on the novelist J.L. Carr and Stuart Lee on guitarist Derek Bailey. You've got to meet the challenge of a culture, that is failing the public.

Great Lives continues on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds.