Woman's Hour - Russell Brand accuser 'Alice' broadcast exclusive, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie

Episode Date: September 18, 2023

Emma Barnett hears from one of the women alleging she was assaulted by Russell Brand. Speaking for the first time since accusations became public, 'Alice', who has accused Russell Brand of sexual assault when she was a teenager, says Brand's emphatic denial of the allegations of rape and sexual abuse against him is "insulting". 'Alice', who had a relationship with Brand when she was 16 and he was 30, says she wants to start a conversation about changing the age of consent.One woman who spoke out earlier this year is the TV producer turned novelist and screenwriter Daisy Goodwin. She accused Daniel Korski, a former special advisor who was in the running at the time to be Conservative candidate for London Mayor, of groping her at an event in 10 Downing Street in 2013. Daniel Korski vehemently denies this and subsequent allegations of sexual misconduct. Daisy joins Emma in studio.On her first day back at the Woman's Hour helm after maternity leave, Emma gets some advice and reflection from someone who returned to work after a similar break, the global literary force that is Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. Author of bestselling books including Half of a Yellow Sun and Americanah, plus essays and short stories, she has just released her first children’s book, Mama’s Sleeping Scarf.Fearless is the title of the new book from make-up business owner and makeover specialist Trinny Woodall. You'll probably know Trinny best for her show What Not To Wear, alongside best friend Susannah Constantine in the early 2000s. Trinny has more recently launched a multi-million pound make-up business and skincare company, Trinny London. She speaks to Emma about reinventing herself in her 50s.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, hello, here we are. It is really something to be back with you today from maternity leave with my daughter. But as anyone who's ever done that will know all too well, it is a day with a lot of mixed emotions. Safe to say I will not be dwelling on those emotions as no one needs to hear me cry on the radio. Instead, I want to say the four words I've been waiting to say to you over the last nine months. Now, where were we?

You know, a big part of the job that I love is hearing from you. So I'm going to ask you my first question of many. If you have had a period of leave from work your day to day, it might not have been maternity leave. It could have been because of ill health, grief, a sabbatical. You may have gone travelling. What was returning like? Were you the same?

How had you changed? Personally, I do think my brain has changed. And actually, we know it has now due to the great work being done on matrescence, the process of becoming a mother. We're familiar with adolescence, less so with matrescence, but I know we've covered it a bit on the programme already and we'll continue. But the neurological impact is very interesting of all of this. What did you change in your period of transition or being away? You might be listening to this on leave right now. I've already had a couple of messages this morning from women on maternity leave. If you're stomping around your local park, big up to you. Get that caffeine in you. I see you. I know you. I hear you. And I'm now talking to you. You can text the programme, me here, on the number 84844. Text will be charged to your standard message rate. How did you change? What did you do?

That's the question today on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Email me through our website or a WhatsApp message or a voice note on 03700 100 444. I'm obliged to tell you data charges may apply, so do use Wi-Fi if you can. And terms and conditions are on the website. To discuss this and some, I'm very excited to be able to say

I'm joined by the author, the powerhouse, that is, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, who'll be joining me shortly to reflect on navigating fundamental changes and specifically how motherhood has altered her, perhaps, and her approach to writing, her craft. A woman, no stranger to change, is the stylist turned beauty business mogul Trini Woodall. She's going to be in the studio later. There's no mirrors here, but we'll talk about what's going on inside, I believe.

And the screenwriter and author Daisy Goodwin is also going to be here to talk about using your voice even in the most difficult of moments. And on that, later in the programme, I'll be able to share with you an exclusive interview. Following a series of allegations of rape and sexual assault by the comedian and actor Russell Brand in the Sunday Times and also as part of a Channel 4 Dispatches programme over the weekend, all of which he denies, you will hear exclusively from the woman who was 16 when she had a relationship with Russell Brand. She wants the law changed, making such relationships illegal

or at least a discussion about the age of consent. Alice, as we are calling her, hasn't spoken publicly since her accusations were revealed by the newspaper or since Russell Brand has issued his denial. Hear her voice, her take, here, only on Womanza this morning. All coming up. But yes, I am back at work today. I can't really fail to notice, neither can any of my family in case they're wondering where I am. It's strange but familiar at the same time. I look the same but things have changed haven't they and maybe they'll change back maybe they won't but

that re-entry feeling that metamorphosis I'm going to turn to someone who's pretty good at putting difficult feelings into words who better than the global literary force that is Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie author of best-selling books including Half of a Yellow Sun and Americana, plus essays and short stories. I remember we spoke, I think the last time on this programme, actually, about her very emotional book about grief after losing both of her parents. And she's just released her first children's book,

Mama's Sleeping Scarf. Well, Mama's Sleep just sounds good to me. Chimamanda, good morning. Good morning, Emma. Welcome back. It feels official if you say it. You know, it's a warm voice to hear and it's a pleasure to be talking to you this morning. How did you find whatever your re-entry was after, in this instance, I know there'll be other re-entry points. We talk about grief, we talk about leave, but in the instance after becoming a mother?

My daughter is going to be eight in a few weeks and I still haven't quite found that re-entry. Really? By the way, I'm not sure. I mean, it's so interesting that you mentioned the brain when you were speaking earlier, because I remember thinking, even before I had her when I was pregnant, that I felt as though my brain had been wrapped in gauze. So sort of a gauzy material. So I knew I had a brain. I knew there were things that I could potentially have access to, but I didn't have access to them, if that makes sense. My brain didn't walk for a long

time. And just more creatively, I think I am making my way back because I'm working on a novel finally. But I just wasn't able to get into my fictional space for a long time. I just wasn't. What do you think that was? I think it's a number of things i mean i do think something happens to to the brain not really but also i think it was just more sort of practical things that i was i was a bit obsessive i wanted to um i spent a lot of time thinking about what i wasn't doing right you know um i think i read too many of those bloody parenting books that only result in making you feel, you know, anxious for no reason.

And so even though I had help, and I want to, because I do think it's so important for women, you know, help is important. This idea that somehow a mother, that sort of caregiving for a child is something that is up to the mother or to the parents. I think a child needs a village, a community. And so we were lucky. My mother came when my daughter was born. We had relatives, but I was still anxious. So I just couldn't relax in my study. I would keep peering at my phone because I had the baby cam app on my phone and my mother had my baby. And of course, my baby was fine, but I just kept looking.

Yes, the constant. And well, I mean, I think this is the first morning in eight months of my daughter being alive. I haven't actually physically laid eyes on her. So it's one of those things. And I recognise that to be able to go to work is a necessity for a lot of women that they may not want to do, but they have to, to be able to go to work may be a privilege because they can't afford the care such as childcare costs in this country and around the world. But making it uh if you like universal which is what we're trying to get to here about how you feel in yourself and and what's not there anymore what was there it's probably very reassuring for people to hear that you as a writer was struggling when then back alone in your sanctum in your space to get back to how you were. Yeah. Yes. And of course, I mean, I understand. Yes.

I mean, everybody has a different story. But I think what's important maybe to acknowledge, I think, is that there is a cost. You know, I think that becoming a mother is a glorious gift, but it comes at a cost. And I think it's important to acknowledge that, right? There is something that we, and I will say lose, but without, I mean, I felt that I could probably have written two novels had I not had my child. But I think that having her also sort of opened me up to this new, almost a new phase of experience and awareness that I'm hoping will feed my fiction. Yes, and it's fascinating as well, because, I mean, through her, not to overextend the metaphor,

you've written a new life and they're writing a life with you. Yes. Which is, you know, just that thought of two other books in that space is fascinating. You and I, just on a much lighter note, and I promise I'll obviously become very serious again in just a moment and thoughtful. We've spoken before about constipation, which I just wanted to lower the tone, if I may, or not. You know, it's a real situation.

But we've talked about it physically around motherhood. We've also talked about it creatively. What do you feel like saying? I know it's quite late where you are, but on that important matter this morning. I think, well, to say that it's not an experience I would wish on anyone. No. But I think we were talking about it in the context of that all of the things that often one isn't prepared for in pregnancy so i wasn't prepared for so much i really wasn't and so i was i was just horrified at the constipation at my um my my joints were so achy um i just you know i wasn't prepared for any of that. And then, no, I probably shouldn't say that.

You should. Anything anybody ever says they shouldn't say, I'm in. What is it? No, I mean, also just the whole, the sort of the birth thing is such a, it's such a, there's a violence to it, isn't there? There's something also, we're sort of reduced to our animal selves.

And then there's always the possibility when baby comes out that you also. Yeah, it's real. And because you said it again, it's OK, because it's from you, an author of the finest words. I just think it's I think it's I think that, you know, becoming a mother is really, I think it's glorious. I think it's, it's, it really is. But at the same time, I think it's important to demystify that and talk about just sort of the gritty reality of it. Because it seems to me that people think it's, it's sort of like in the movies where the woman's just lying there and then they bring the baby and she's perfectly fine. But actually, lots of women are sinking in just awful depression. And it's not how they thought. They've been given no preview necessarily.

And I think also, you know, I say this again, we've spoken a little bit over the years on this. But, you know, as someone who very much struggled to become a mother, you know, that gratitude is complex with the hard bits. Because, you know, you don't want to just complain and say it's hard. It is hard. And it's important to say that, but that doesn't, you know, in any way remove the love, the gratitude and the deference. You know, it's just that balance, because I am aware that a lot of people listening, a lot of women listening aren't able and wanted to. A lot of people didn't want to. But, you know, for those who are in what I call the worst no man's land, that trench of trying, you know, I'll always have one foot and my heart a bit there when you have these conversations. Well, you know, Emma, I also had, I had, I had, it was quite a difficult sort of journey to having a child for me as well.

And so I have a lot of empathy and understanding of what it's like to deal with infertility. But also there's just something about the way that we live now. It seems to me that it's almost difficult to, I mean, it's obvious. Why does one need to state the obvious? Of course the love is there, but we can hold two things at the same time, can't we? But we're living in a society where holding two things at the same time can't we but we're living in a society where holding two things at the same time seems to be you know and i know when you did your wreath lectures you talked a little bit about this of duality of complexity you know anyone who's not heard them do go and listen i chop better when i listen to that lecture the vegetables in

the the kitchen or whatever i'm doing i walk a bit taller it bit taller. It was fascinating to hear you talk about that. You shouldn't have to state the obvious, but you do half the time. Yeah, I suppose so, yes. This is the world we live in now. And yes. Well, I was going to say that we've got lots of messages coming in, which is the joy of being live on the radio.

And a message here, for instance, that says, and I hadn't thought about this, but it's a great example when I'm asking about periods of leave. A message here is, welcome back, Emma. Thank you for that. I was put on furlough in the pandemic for 15 months. So this process of people not being able to be able to go to work. My return to work found me so detached from my job and changed as a person. I had a lot of time to think and I ended up only staying for two months and then left the corporate and very safe career. I had to go and run my own business in horticulture. I'm forever grateful.

And I think that's from Rachel. Thank you for that message. What that speaks to, to bring it back to our conversation, is are you trying and have you tried to go back to who you were? Or is that a road closed? I think I'm a different person. I don't think I can go back to the person I was before I became a mother. It's just not possible.

I look at the world differently. And when I was trying very hard to get into my, what I like to call my fictional space, creative space, I used to wonder how in the world did I finish a novel in the past? I mean, it just seemed to me sort of this thing that was almost undoable. And I thought, I actually wrote novels, really? How? How did I manage that? But I don't even miss that person, if that makes sense. I'm, you know, my daughter's just brought, she's just brought such joy and so many changes to my life. I don't want to go back to that person.

Does she hold you to account, Jim Amanda? You know, this is really worth exploring, Emma. We might need to get her on next time for this conversation or when she's ready. I mean, she's actually kind of, she's a tough critic. So this children's book that I've just written, she said, when I first read the draft to her, she said, it's boring, Mama.

What? So I thought, okay, that's helpful. That is brave. Chimamanda, I hope and look forward to many more conversations in the future. It is a delight to talk to you today, to hear your voice. And I can also see your lovely face on the video screen here.

Thank you for staying up for us, because I know the time difference at Stateside where you are at the moment is a little bit brutal. Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, thank you. And I should say, just in reference to her writing, you can hear more from her next week on Radio 4, as she'll be talking to Johnny Pitts on Open Book about writing her new children's

book. But let's just hear an exclusive preview now. I kind of slightly smugly thought that, well, it's a children's book, you know, I can do it in a week, it can't be that hard. And I realised that actually, it's not easy. And so I think my first approach was to think it was just something I could just do really quickly. And I felt that I could just approach it in the same way that one approaches, you know, fiction, just adult fiction. And so I had to kind of go back, not so much as a poet, but sort of I had to try and become a child. You know, I had to just make my eyes simpler. I had to try and see as I imagined a child would see, a child who's likely to get bored. And what a critic she's got in her daughter. A little snippet there of my guest Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie on Open Book. You can hear the full interview on that programme on Thursday, the 28th of September at 3.30. Now, I mentioned you will be

hearing from Alice, as we are calling her one of the women who has accused Russell Brand of sexual assault. The comedian and podcaster and writer and film actor, I should say, he has strenuously denied those allegations. As you'll hear in that interview coming up shortly, she's talked about power structures and her hopes for accountability, as well as law change. Well, who changes the law? The lawmakers. And yet with a new vacancy to be the chair of the Parliamentary Standards Committee, how decent are the systems that hold our politicians and their entourage to account? Well, one woman who spoke out earlier this year is the TV producer turned novelist and screenwriter Daisy Goodwin. She accused, you may remember, Daniel Korsky, a former special advisor

who at the time was in the running to be the Conservative candidate for London Mayor of groping her at an event in 10 Downing Street in 2013. As you say, Daniel Korsky vehemently denies this and subsequent allegations of sexual misconduct. In the studio with me is Daisy Goodwin. Good morning. Good morning. Shortly, our listeners will hear this interview with the woman that we are calling Alice. But what I'm aware of is she has used her voice to talk out about something that happened to her. We're not conflating those two things at all or comparing

your incidences and the allegations. But how has it been for you since that? Because she's right at the beginning of that journey of speaking how she spoke, has spoken to a reporter, to the reporters at the Sunday Times. Well, she's much younger than I am. So I imagine it's a much more difficult journey for her because, of course, you know, she will be forever associated with this and she hasn't had a chance to establish herself in another field. Although anonymous, we should say. Anonymous, exactly. So I hope people don't find out who she is unless she chooses to tell them. I mean, I would say it was easier for me because I'm, you know, I'm 61 and I've got a body of work behind me. People know who I am.

And I think when I wrote about Korsky, I think on the whole, people believed me because they knew that I really had very little reason to lie about it. I mean, because unfortunately, women are often victim blamed. They are accused of making these things up or perhaps misremembering. That even happened to me on on Radio 4. And you think that and I think that I hope is changing. But I think it's sometimes difficult for women to get through all of that. And I think that's why they don't speak out and you know I'm lucky because I don't have a boss I'm an independent person I'm a writer I can say what I like within reason but I think for women who work within big organizations not so much

commercial organizations now but things like the civil Service or Westminster, it's very hard for them to speak out and feel that they won't in some house suffer as a result. What you talked about as well, though, is you also, it happens to have been the Times, I believe, when you first shared this with a name attached to it, you also were in the media rather than a courtroom as such. And I'm asking about that because I've seen online, you know, where people share their views and what people have said, that there is this space that's opened up, a new space. I mean, it's not that new.

The Me Too movement's now been going for several years. Of the media filling the gap between police action, let's say, and I'm talking more broadly here, and accusation. As I speak to you now, there is no investigation by the Metropolitan Police into Russell Brand, for instance, who strenuously denies the allegations. What do you say to people who feel confused by that, uncomfortable by that new space?

What do you say to them? Well, I say that the reason that people like me go to the media is because there is no other redress. I mean, I went to the media because I did try and ring. I did try and complain to the cabinet office and they said, well, your only option is to go to the police. I didn't feel that that was really appropriate because it was 10 years ago and it wasn't a very serious allegation like the one that Alice is putting. So I think quite often the media is the only place where people can actually say without fear or favour what's happened to them and I think that you know it's difficult, it's difficult for the

men, I can appreciate that because there is some element of you you know, trial by media. But on the other hand, I think it's very important that people like me who have some kind of credibility should speak out. And I didn't for a long time because I thought, well, you know, women like me have dealt with this sort of thing throughout our career. We just get on with it. We ignore it. But I actually now think, and like you, I have two daughters. I feel it's very important for them that we do say this is not acceptable anymore. Was that a part of your motivation?

Of course, of course. So just on that, because I think keeping going with how we say things and where we say things and then the impact and the concern about that. There was a particular detail, and I'm a woman of details, I know you are as well as a writer, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I read that you said that you rang, when you did ring Number 10 to make this complaint or however you made contact, you tell me, you were left on hold for so long you could make a family-sized lasagna.

Yes. They just, I mean, you know, maybe I was naive, but I rang up and said, hello, this was, you know, the day that I was, my piece came out and I said, hello, I'm Daisy Goodwin. And I'm, you know, I want to, I want to raise a formal complaint. And this is to number 10. Yes. And they just, they said, well, which organisation are you calling from? And I just, well, no no it's not an organization but I'm I'm somebody who's had a bad experience at number 10 and I would like to register a formal complaint and it was they went into panic mode nothing happened and you were on hold and yeah

I went hold and hold and hold and then finally somebody spoke to me said said, oh, yes, somebody's going to ring you back. And then the next day I got an email after that saying someone's going to email and ring you tomorrow. And then I got someone from the wonderfully named Cabinet Ethics Committee who rang me to explain to me that there was nothing they could do because Daniel Kulski no longer worked for them. And so it wasn't appropriate. They had no jurisdiction. And the only place that I could actually do anything was to go to the police. So having tried that route, the police, you didn't feel it was the right place for this specific one. And then you went to The Times to do that. I think just going through that and what it brings us to talking about number 10 is the so-called pessminster uh context of that if people don't remember that there's been several allegations uh i'm not going to be able to put a

number on it because various things are still moving and fluid on that that uh whether it's mps or those who work for them or around them have been accused of sexual assault, of abusing power, in some cases more serious things. I mentioned when I introduced you that there is this vacancy to be the chair of the Parliamentary Standards Committee, a few people throwing their hat in to the ring. I believe it has to be a member of the opposition. Harriet Harman, Stella Creasy are a couple of the frontrunners.

How do you feel taking a step back about those who make the laws, the lawmakers? I'm not painting them all in any way the same way, but in terms of accountability, there are systems more in place, some would say since 2013. Do you have confidence? Not really, no. I mean, because when I originally made this allegation, I didn't name, not allegation, when I wrote about what happened to me. And I didn't name the guy. But it was clear to me from all the texts I received, this was in 2017, that everybody in Westminster knew who I was talking about. So the point is that there is clearly a level of tolerance for this kind of behaviour within Westminster. That is completely unacceptable.

And when you talk to female MPs, and even talk to male MPs, Chris Bryant talks about being groped within Westminster and you just think it's just not on. And it wouldn't happen now, I think, in a corporate organisation. It wouldn't happen in the BBC now among employees. So why should it happen in Westminster? And I really think that they should be looking at themselves with slightly more scrutiny, be tougher about it. I spoke to the lovely Caroline Noakes, who's the chairman of the Women's Committee.

And she said, yes, I heard all these people talking about you yesterday in the tea room. And they say, what's in it for her? And the idea that actually I did it because I thought it was the right thing to do didn't seem to have crossed their mind. Well, politics is a competitive sport. Indeed it is. So that's, I suppose, an insight into the frame of mind of some politicians. Caroline notes herself has obviously been on this very programme many times, but not least after she made her own accusation against the father of the then Prime Minister, Stanley

Johnson, about slapping her on the bottom, I believe that was, and where that had got to or not. In terms of your faith then in the lawmakers, it sounds like it's not very good. It's not really where it needs to be. Just a final question to you, as I always want to make sure women get their voice heard and directly how they want to be heard, if I can say it like that. Do you feel it's changed your life talking out in any way? I recognise you're much further on in your career and you're established, but what has been the impact? Well, I've had some pushback from some people I thought were friends,

Tories, who've said, well done for destroying the career of a really good politician. And, you know, I see their point, but how can you be a good politician and someone who gropes women? I'm also delighted that I now have the respect of my daughters and her friends and their friends. I mean, you know, and that means a lot to me because I want to be able to do the right thing for the next generation.

Thank you for coming on the programme this morning. Daisy Goodwin. We were talking, the man that she has accused, I said that Daniel Korski, that's his name, has consistently and vehemently denied any allegations of sexual misconduct. He said he doesn't believe he's ever behaved inappropriately towards women he's worked with. We approached the Cabinet Office, who declined to comment,

despite our best efforts. Also, we have not been able to make contact with the Conservative Party press office in the run up to this programme. But going back to the allegations over the weekend, as you may have seen, as you may have read, as you may have watched, a joint investigation by the Sunday Times, the Times and Channel 4 Dispatches has revealed that four women have made allegations of rape, sexual assault and emotional abuse against the comedian and actor Russell Brand. He is now facing further claims after more women have come forward with allegations, that's according to The Times this morning, who are yet to verify them.

One of these women, whom we're calling Alice, has said that Russell Brand assaulted her when she was 16 and still at school. He was 30 at the beginning of their relationship and turned 31 during it. She is speaking to me for the first time since Russell Brand has denied these allegations which have now been made public. Just hours after them, Russell Brand was on stage. He was greeted with cheers and a standing ovation from a crowd of 2,000 of his fans in Wembley on Saturday night as part of his speaking tour. He has more performances scheduled around the country in the coming weeks and months. The comedian has a large

international following for his daily broadcasts, as well as the millions of viewers on his YouTube, TikTok and Instagram channels, and enjoys a successful film career in Hollywood. Broadcasters, including the BBC, are investigating allegations. The police, as of yet, are not working on any cases. Alice, who agreed to our interview on account of remaining anonymous, spoke to me earlier this morning, and I should say her words have been voiced by an actor. You have accused the actor and comedian Russell Brand of sexually assaulting you.

How does it feel to have that very serious accusation out there? It feels quite honestly surreal at the moment to see my story everywhere and even elements of my story on the front pages of publications that I hadn't spoken to and it feels like it was a long time in the coming but it also felt like something that would never be be realized for me and so I'm just I can't say that I'm glad because it's been an unpleasant experience but I hope that we can have conversations that can lead to protecting people in the future. Which we will come to. I know that's a main motivation for you speaking out. You're referring to the fact that you have worked very closely for years now with the Sunday Times, with Rosamund Irwin in particular, the reporter who was part of the team that broke this story,

along with a couple of others at that newspaper. But other papers, as you say, have now written this up and your story sort of takes a life of its own. But that's why it's important to hear from you today on Woman's Hour. Yeah, I wasn't really expecting my story to make such an impact. Because I guess when it's your own own story it's hard to look at it objectively so I've been quite taken aback by how many people have either been able to relate to it or have been appalled by it or thought that it's at least something that needs to be talked about. I do have to bring this up because it's important to hear your response to this. Russell Brand has denied this, what you have said. He's also denied all of the other very serious allegations.

He said he's a subject of a coordinated attack, quote, involving some very serious allegations, he says, that I absolutely refute. What is your response to his response? First of all, I think it's insulting. And it's laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He's not outside the mainstream. He did a Universal Pictures movie last year. He did Minions, a children's movie movie he's very much part of the mainstream media he just happens to have a youtube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up and it may sound cynical but i do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward

with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time. And then as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened, that's not a surprise to me. These men always denied that any of these allegations brought to them. I knew he would. But what he didn't deny, he did say it was consensual, but he didn't deny that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old. I will come to that. It's a very important part of your story. And I know something that you also feel very strongly about because of the law in this country and what you see as needing to change. But I'm interested just to go back to what you said about the fact you think he's been creating an audience because you think he thought this was going to happen, that this day was going to come. What makes you think that? Because it's the biggest open secret going. You don't have to be an investigative journalist to have conversations with somebody who has an awful experience with him or somebody knows something. And so if you just in casual conversations are encountering people that have had these awful experiences with him

you know that this is just the tip of the iceberg are you hurt by his response um i expected it i expected him to do something you know probably outside of the usual press release or you know statement via publicist or via, you know, drafted by a lawyer. I expected it to be slightly offish, but what I've been preparing myself for a long time, that he's not just going to say, I'm sorry, I did it and put his hands up to it. You talked about it being well known, an element of an open secret, the idea of those who surrounded him and the businesses that employed him. One of those businesses is where I'm sat right now, the BBC.

He had a radio show here and worked for the BBC for two years, as well as other organisations, including Channel 4, where dispatches this particular programme, the broadcast element of this story, went out on Saturday evening. There's a specific allegation that I wanted to ask you about that the BBC is now investigating, and that is that a BBC car was sent to collect you. I believe, is it on a number of occasions, to go and see Russell Brand? Can you tell me a bit more

about that? He had two car accounts. You know, we weren't Ubering then. But it was, he had an Addison Lee car account. And then he had, I don't think, I don't know if he had the account of the BBC that he had for us too. But the BBC would arrange cars for him and so he would you know I'd seen him previously be picked up from his house by BBC cars so I knew the difference and also it was a chauffeur driven car it was different than just calling a cab and so he, he had a friend who was taking him to do his radio show. So he said to me, oh, you get in the car and you go wherever you need to. So he said to me, oh, you get in the car and you go wherever you need to go from there. So I took the BBC car that time.

And on another occasion, it picked me up from school. So you believe a BBC car picked you up from school to take you somewhere to meet him? It was back to his house. And you know that because of the way that you'd seen these cars used, that's your understanding of it being a BBC car? Yes and because I'd used one of their cars previously that he told me just to tell the driver where to take me so a bbc chauffeur driven car picked you up at the age of 16 to take you to russell brand's house yes yeah the bbc um has said in a statement the documentary just referring to

that dispatches program and associated reports contained serious allegations spanning a number of years. Russell Brand worked on BBC radio programmes between 2006 and 2008, and we are urgently looking into the issues raised. What would you like from the BBC? I'd like to know why Moore wasn't done at the time to keep... I mean, he already had a very well-known record of doing things that were inappropriate on the air, having inappropriate conversations. He was not being held.

I don't think he was being held to the same standards that other presenters or other certainly not newsreaders would behave like this. Anybody else that was working with the BBC, There was exceptions and allowances made for him. And we need to ask ourselves why. What would, if you like, make you feel better perhaps about those systems now? They say years have elapsed and lapses have gone between and things have changed, systems have improved. Do you have confidence in, you know in a major organisation like the BBC?

There were many others that employed him, but do you have confidence things have changed and that wouldn't happen today? I can't speak for the BBC, but I'm not sure across all television companies and across all media organisations that things have changed. We went through the, Operation U-Tree and the several revelations. And then after that, you know, I was working in television at the time and was party to conversations about employing Russell on a TV show and taking women off those shows too, so that he didn't assault them because he had before and that he wasn't inappropriate

with them so we'll just take the young women off so that he can work on this this was post U-Tree post Savile so I don't have confidence that things are changing I think we have these moments these little landmarks in history of people coming forward. And it feels like there's going to be a big movement and it maybe lasts a few months. And then we sort of slipped back into our old ways. Just to be clear, which broadcaster are you talking about when you say there was a request for girls to be taken or women to be taken off the show? That was Channel 4. Channel 4 have also said in a statement that they're looking into allegations raised.

You do want to talk about this and are talking about this. And thank you again for talking to me and to our listeners this morning because you want to talk about the fact you were 16 at the time. Russell Brand knew that, presumably? He knew before we ever went on our first date. So when we met initially and he took my number and asked me out on a date, he didn't. He hadn't asked me, but he didn't know. So I texted him prior to because he said to me, he knew that I was stalling on agreeing on a date with him. And he said, why aren't you? He said, what's going on? Like, why aren't you? Why don't you

want to go out with me? And I said, listen, because I said, because I've got something to tell you. I said, I'm 16. And he just replied saying, okay, so we're still on for dinner at 7.30. And how old was he? He was 30. What do you want to say about that now as an older woman? Now that I'm in my 30s, looking at 16-year-olds, I can't even imagine finding them sexually attractive. I can't imagine even thinking of them as that you know a potential mate in any way it just seems the only feelings I have towards them are maternal protective feelings I couldn't

even imagine you just don't even put them into that category in your head it's not as I became an older woman and began reaching the same age as him that that's when I really started to get, that's when I really started to feel angry. And felt like what had happened wasn't consensual in inverted commas or how would you describe that? Because although it's technically legal, the power imbalance, which is what you're referring to there,

is huge in this. Yeah. And just because, you know, he was telling me that I'm a very intelligent woman I'm mature being intelligent doesn't mean that you're not naive and that you're not vulnerable and that you you don't have the life experiences and your brain isn't fully developed and you don't have the capacity to understand what adult relationships entail. And you don't have a voice yet to advocate for yourself, because you haven't had these experiences yet. So it's very difficult to say that it's

appropriate in any way for a 16 year old to be with a 30 year old. Your mum obviously had those experiences, was in charge of you to an extent, but you were 16. I know that she wanted to try and stop what was going on at the time. What happened with her and how did that play out? My mum did try. She did all the things that mothers, you know, she followed all those motherly impulses.

She took my phone away she grounded me she didn't you know she would try to keep me confined to the house but I'm 16 year but I'm 16 years old so I need to she can't do that indefinitely so I need to go to school I need to go to after-school activities I need to see my friends and then it was within those times that I would sneak off and see him and Russell groomed me and told me to save his number in my phone under a different name and so that you know nothing's flagged when there's, you know, messages coming up. And he coached me on what to say to my parents. And my mum didn't, there was nothing that she could do to protect me from being in that relationship.

Because she's, she's, she had, you know, breakdowns about it. And people say, well, just call the police. And then what? I was legally allowed to be there. And that's what you want to change? I think we should at least start to think about changing it, because perhaps we can suggest the idea of staggered ages of consent. You know, there's a reasonable argument individuals between the ages of 16 and 18 can have relations with people within that same age bracket so that we don't have adults exploiting a 16 17 year old's capacity for sexual determination you're allowed to make mistakes as a teenager they should be with

other people your own age and they should be you know they shouldn't be able to be manipulated by somebody that might have ulterior motives once he did know your age do you think that was part of it for russell brand this is obviously your view of of him at it wasn't a convenient relationship in any way for him because I was grounded. Sometimes I was in school. I was doing, he couldn't be, you know, after a few days, it was decided I couldn't be seen publicly with him. Decided by whom? Sorry. He told me that his management had told him, his agent,

not to be seen out and about. His management had advised him not to be seen out and about with a 16-year-old. Yeah, because they said it wasn't a good look for him and for his career. He's just, you know, made it to where he wants to be and it's not a good idea. And there was some kind of discussions. Well, maybe we can say she's your goddaughter. Well, we can't say she's a niece because people know you're an only child. There were those kind of discussions.

And then it was, well, why don't you just stay inside? And then we only met with inside the four walls of his room. What you're describing there is, as you were alluding to earlier a system around him that was aware excuse me a system around him that was aware of this particular relationship and and the details of it yeah and they were just advising him that you know know, you're not doing anything illegal, but because people would disapprove, just don't risk being seen out and about publicly. We would go in and out the house at different times. I would either get there before him and he'd leave a key outside for me, or I would leave a couple of hours after he left. Alice, how has this affected your life? It certainly had an impact on my relationships going forward. And it made me feel at 16, I'd already felt it was my first sexual experiences and I felt used up.

I felt cheap. I felt dirtied by the whole thing and so then I went on to have another series of you know relationships with people that were for want of a better word sleazy or whatever else because I just thought well if I go for bottom of the barrel I can never be disappointed by anyone and I can never be hurt by anyone because I know to expect the absolute worst and also I missed a lot of school and I was not in a good place mentally I was just recovering from an eating disorder and I didn't complete my education I didn't even get to finish my A-levels is there anything you want to I just think that we should take a look at why people and there's been a lot of discussion about this

online in the in the past few days or a couple of days about people saying well it was completely legal even though stuff that happened within the relationship wasn't consensual people are saying well he didn't do anything illegal and people are saying you know they were even there were foul things written online they've been very disturbing even saying well in solidarity with Russell let's go out and have you know fill in the blank a 16 year old And so I think we need to ask why. What interest would adults have in keeping the age of consent at 16? And don't forget that the age of consent in the UK was set at 16 in 1885. And at that time, the average life expectancy was 40 years old. You're listening to Alice, not her real name, and her words were voiced by an actor.

A spokesman for John Knoll Management, that's the agency that represented Russell Brand from 2002 to 2017, told The Times, The Sunday Times and Channel 4 dispatches that, quote, for legal reasons on which they cannot elaborate, they were not in a position to respond to questions. We have a statement from the BBC as well to share with you because of some of the allegations concerning the corporation and the ensuing investigation. The BBC statement reads as, Russell Brand worked for a number of different organisations

of which the BBC was one. As is well known, Russell Brand left the BBC after a serious editorial breach in 2008, as did the then controller of Radio 2. The circumstances of the breach were reviewed in detail at the time. We hope that demonstrates that the BBC can take issues seriously and is prepared to act. Indeed, the BBC has, over successive years,

evolved its approach to how it manages talent and how it deals with complaints or issues raised. We have clear expectations around conduct at work. These are set out in employment contracts, the BBC values, the BBC Code of Conduct and the anti-bullying and harassment policy. We will always listen to people if they come forward with any concerns on any issue related to any individual working at the BBC past or present and moving to channel four said he had asked the production company who produced the programs for channel four to investigate these allegations and report their findings properly and satisfactorily to us this is with regard to Russell Brand and those programs he appeared on. The broadcaster

added it was conducting its own internal investigation and encouraged anyone who is aware of such behaviour to contact us directly. The statement added we will be writing to all of our current suppliers reminding them of their responsibilities under our code of conduct. And just to remind you that Russell Brand himself has called the allegations a, quote, coordinated attack involving some very serious allegations that I absolutely refute. He says he was promiscuous,

but that the relationships I had were absolutely always consensual. Now, to talk about my next guest, you'd have to think about reinvention. You'd have to think about change. Perhaps now you may think of the word fearless. And it sounds like one of our listeners, when I asked you right at the beginning of this morning's programme, my first morning back on air with you, and what a delight it has been to have your company, what you felt when you had a bit of a break from work. One of you got in touch to talk about fear. message from petter in hampshire good morning i lost my husband

in may and then 10 weeks later my mum too very sorry petter i've changed so much in those last four months and in these last four months my worry is i can no longer do my job properly or will it make me better at it i'm petrified well fearless is the title of the new book from my next guest the makeup business owner and the makeover specialist if we can call it that there's many other roles she's occupied trinny woodall she's just walked into the studio you may know her best from those shows in the 90s what not to wear alongside her best friend susanna constantine and the early 2000s i should say tr Trini has more recently launched a multi-million pound makeup business and skincare company, Trini London. And it's her latest reinvention as a business mogul in her 50s, which is giving us all hope. Trini, good morning.

Good morning. Lovely to have you here. Thank you. I wanted to ask, first of all, if I may, who tells you how to feel better? You're sharing some advice, but who's your person? My daughter, actually, because she's been through a lot and she's had some tough things when she was younger. And she could be quite traumatised by things, you know, just what she's been through. And she's fearless when I'm feeling a bit nervous.

You know, she might just say, don't worry, Mummy. And we had this thing always 99% of everything you worry about never happens because we spend a lot of time worrying. And she's incredibly calm in that moment I might feel frazzled. So you do have those moments? Yeah, I have those moments. Of course I have. I couldn't write this book if I didn't have those moments. And to our listener who's feeling very nervous about a different point in her life, what would you say?

Because I should say in this book, and I know you talk about things online as well. You've got a Trini tribe, I believe, as they're called, who follow you, every move or what you share on Instagram. It's not just about clothes and makeup. No, the bit that I found the hardest to write, but what is for me the most interesting thing for me to write was a bit on life. I wasn't going to do anything autobiographical because that's not the person for me. That's not me. But I've been through quite a few things. So it was how did I deal through those difficult times in my life and what tools did I use?

And I've also, like you, met lots of interesting people who've helped me and so I put them in as well so so it's life which could be from the difference between intuition and instinct um worry um looking at things in our life that can really affect us and bring us down what what helps you with worry any a specific tip you could share on the I think a lot of it is that separation out between what we feel and the voice inside our head and understanding when one is a voice inside our head, which is generated by fear, and the other one is us, a greater sense of person. So there are two ways that I do that when I have that negative voice that might come in. I see it as a raven sometimes on my shoulder going, you can't do this or you're not good enough. And I just think,

is that me or is that my day of having a lack of self-worth? And then I might say, shut up. Or I might say, you can go back to sleep now and be nice. But it's separating out the two. Oh, I am. I can be literally on the tube going, shut up. Somebody will look and think, is she talking to herself? But I think it's understanding that difference. Sometimes we need to nurture ourselves and sometimes we need to say, come on, we can do this. And if we don't feel like this lady who left that message has been through a lot. And it's about finding who she is again. When you go through loss, you lose parts of yourself. And you need to find out who you are without those people in your life. And that's one of the most challenging things to go through. But I think that it can be as superficial as, well, not superficial, but as physical as wearing color and being present in a room. And it can be as intimate as thinking I've been a part of somebody else. Now I've got to find the full me.

Because sometimes in tight relationships, we are 70% of ourselves. With Susanna, I was 50% of myself because we were in a partnership. So we relied on each other for those other moments. So I think I've found myself over the last 10 years of who am I as a single entity. So it's a journey. It does get better. I too have experienced loss. And I think it's just one step in front of the other sometimes and then relying on other people's faith in you

when you haven't got faith in yourself. I did mention constipation at the start of the programme. You're looking probably quite concerned with the author Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. Shots of testosterone talk to me about that I read you get three a year is that right? I think that I spent 10 years I went into menopause at 43 so I spent 10 years researching it and when you do IVF I did 15 rounds of IVF you you knock off years of when you'd normally go into menopause so I knocked off 10 years. And I only found that

out by going to see a woman in America I must have spoken to so many people in England and GPs, some are brilliant but some are really old-fashioned. And I understood the importance for me of testosterone as well as progesterone and oestrogen. I mean the reason I was linking it back to constipation is the idea of things getting blocked or things going in. I mean you haven't been afraid to experiment. You're obviously also not afraid of needles. You know, I've done six rounds of IVF. So you know, that daily going left, it's like you've got to get used to it, honey. Me and going left and a bruised tummy are real. I'm still trying to get back there. But yeah, I suppose, well, IVF about reinvention about now with your very successful business. Congratulations on that you know and

doing it in your 50s as well I'm not making a big thing of that per se but it is a thing for other people as they're thinking about reinvention how to do that what would you say to to someone who who's in a bit of a rut right now listening I think what do you feel is missing in your life you know what would you like to be doing a lot of us might have an idea for something we're scared to get it out on the kitchen table because we then it will be in the open and when we keep something inside it can be a dream that we can always think might happen they might have to flog the kitchen table to be able to afford it in my life so I do feel it's what what is making you happy right now and what do you feel is missing you know is it a passion is it a reason to get out of what do you feel is missing? You know, is it a passion?

Is it a reason to get out of bed in the morning? Is it enough of something for you and not for all the people around you that you give to? Figure those out, write them down a bit, and then just write down small little things that you think might get you closer to that. Is your daughter a fierce critic as well? Chimamanda was saying that earlier. A fierce critic? Fierce critic. Fierce critic. I mean, every daughter has the right to be. She's at the front of the line for that and it's

a part of her duty in her mind to be that harshest critic. But she's my biggest champion and my harshest critic. We'll take that. Trini, the book's called Fearless. Thank you very much for coming on this morning and I hope some of what you've said has got through to people in the way that I know that you're

hoping to do that with this book, but also with your broadcasts across your channels. Thank you so much for many of your messages this morning. Very good advice I'm going to take about different transitions. And it's a pleasure to be back with you back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Who's in the news for all the wrong reasons? Step inside the world of crisis management and so-called spin doctors with me, David Yelland. And me, Simon Lewis. In our new podcast from BBC Radio 4, we tell you what's really going on behind the scenes as the week's biggest PR disasters unfold. Simon and I used to be on opposite sides of a story in the media when I was editor of The

Sun and Simon was communications secretary to the late Queen. Now we've teamed up to share everything we know about what's keeping those big stories in and out of the press. As the great philosopher King Mike Tyson himself once said, everyone has a plan until they're punched in the mouth. And there's a lot of people punching people in the mouth in this town. Listen and subscribe to I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.