Woman's Hour - Russian feminism, Adele Roberts, Under Pressure - Kate and Annie, ACL injuries in women's sport

Episode Date: April 24, 2023

It's been reported that a draft law that would recognise feminism as an extremist ideology is under consideration by Russia’s state duma - that's the lower chamber of parliament. Nuala asks the prominent women’s rights activist and opposition politician Alena Popova if this is a worrying time for feminists in the country.Yesterday BBC Radio 1's Adele Roberts ran the London Marathon and broke the world record for the fastest time run by a woman with a stoma. Adele was diagnosed with Bowel Cancer two years ago and is very open and honest about daily life with her stoma, who's called Audrey. She spoke to Anita Friday ahead of the race - and joins Nuala today to celebrate her achievement.England's Lionesses captain, and no. 1 on our 2023 Power List, Leah Williamson, will no longer be able to play in the World Cup this summer. She has ruptured her anterior cruciate ligament or ACL. She and her Arsenal team mate Beth Mead are just two of the footballers out of action with the same injury. So why are women six times more likely to suffer this type of injury? And what impact be on the England team? Nuala talks to Fiona Tomas, women's sports reporter for The Telegraph.Another chance to hear Under Pressure, our series looking at what happens to relationships when couples are put under extreme strain - how do they cope? Today we hear from Kate and Annie. They had been together for more than thirty years when Annie became ill. In 2021 they told their story to our reporter Jo Morris. Sadly, Annie died at the end of January this year. Kate was happy for this interview to be repeated as a tribute to her beloved wife.The US Supreme Court has preserved access to a commonly used early abortion pill, ruling that the drug Mifepristone can remain available while a legal case continues. This has been described as the most significant case since the Supreme Court ended the nationwide right to abortion last year, by overturning the landmark 1973 Roe V Wade. Emma Long, Associate Professor of American Literature and Politics at the University of East Anglia, joins Nuala to discuss.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, this is Nuala McGovern, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. I'm wondering, did you watch the London Marathon? In whatever city that it takes place, I always find a marathon such an inspiring event to watch. I find myself rooting for people that, you know, I'll never beat. But there is one woman that many of you feel you know, even if you've never met her. She is an inspiration. She was with us on Woman's Hour on Friday with Anita.

And I'm happy to say the Radio 1 DJ, Adele Roberts, is back with us. Or should I say, Guinness World Record Breaker, Adele Roberts. Well, if you run, we want to know

what you listen to, if anything. I know Adele had Whitney's one moment in time as she crossed the finish line. But what helps you complete your run? Is it certain music or a podcast or a book? Some apparently like running naked.

And no, I'm not talking about taking your kit off and sprinting down the road. It's about running without music or a phone or a smartwatch or any of those additional items. They say it helps create more mindful running. Is that you? So is it the sound of music you're going for or that of your breathing? Tell us all about it. You can text the programme. The number is 84844.

On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For WhatsApp, for a message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. Do get in touch. Now, today, many of us, we're going to talk about this, can remember having a particularly stressful time

with our partner. It tests us in different ways. So we have a very moving episode of our series Under Pressure, which explores how the dynamic between couples can change when that happens. So we're going to bring that story to you. We also have the Russian opposition activist, that's Alana Popova on Woman's Hour. She'll tell us how she's fighting for women's rights in Russia. She's also very optimistic and hopeful, I will say. And we'll look again at Mifepristone.

It's a pill used for abortion in the United States. It remains available for now. There was a really dramatic weekend in the courts and we're going to update you on that legal battle. It continues after the overturning of Roe v. Wade. So that was the ruling that overturned the constitutional right to an abortion. So a lot coming up.

I hope you'll stay with me for the hour. But let us begin with BBC Radio 1's Adele Roberts, who ran the London Marathon, as I mentioned. She didn't just give herself that challenge of running, you know, 26.2 miles, but she also wanted to break the world record for the fastest time run by a woman with a stoma.

And that is less than 12 months since she stopped chemotherapy. You might know that Adele was diagnosed with bowel cancer two years ago. She's documented her journey through surgery and chemotherapy and has been so open and honest about daily life with her stoma, who's called Audrey, and very much encouraging other people to be aware and check themselves. And Anita spoke to Adele on Friday ahead of the race. I was tuned in as a listener. I'm delighted to say that Adele joins us again. Adele, welcome. How are you feeling? Morning, Nuala. Oh, I feel on top of the world. And what a beautiful introduction. Thank you so much. Well, I have to say I was smiling ear to ear listening to you on Friday and I was following

you yesterday. And there you go. go you did it I've seen the pictures there's the man from beginners book of records that met you tell us a little bit about it what it felt like talk us through your race oh it was a whirlwind um when I finished I didn't know what time I had so uh it was supposed to be this most amazing embrace with my girlfriend who met me at the finish line. And we were going to have this big hug and just celebrate. And I was just like, what was my time? Did I get the time?

Did I do it? She's like, I don't know what your time is. It was a bit of pandemonium at first. And then the man with the official blazer, so I knew he was real, came over to me and he said, you did it. You broke the world record. And it just felt incredible. Yeah, he, you know, there's all, of course, you know, battered and sweaty people coming over the line.

And he's pristine in this navy blazer with gold buttons and whatever, holding what he needed to hold to give you that honour. Was it difficult? I know you talk about Audrey the stoma that I have become familiar with. Maybe some of our listeners are not. But, you know, you were looking for her to behave. And the stoma is what you use after you eat and whatnot because of bowel cancer. It's your ileostomy.

Perhaps you'd like to just remind our listeners how you use her. Yeah, of course. Yeah, because before I got a stoma, I didn't really know what they were. And, you know, I thought when I got one, you know, hopefully I can help change that. So it's essentially a little bit of my small intestine that's been brought to my stomach to allow me to go to the toilet while my large colon heals. So that's where the cancer was. They took the cancer out and it's sort of like fusing back together at the moment. And so for the time being, I go to the toilet kind of like through my front so I've kind of got an extra hole which is great because it's kept me alive but when it comes to running it's quite tricky because anything I eat or drink

essentially ends up going through the stoma and into my bag so that's the problem so you kind of have to eat and drink enough to keep your body going in the marathon but you also have to not put too much in so you don't have to stop and go to the toilet all the time so was it mashed potato yes porridge no you want to tell our listeners yeah so one of the first things I learned when I got an ileostomy is fiber's not your friend so they don't deal very well with anything with the skin on or anything that's quite tough to break down. So usually marathon runners will eat good things like porridge to fuel them. And porridge was just a little bit too tough for my stoma to break down. So mashed potato was great, but porridge

was a problem. And so I got woken up at three in the morning by Audrey, basically emptying the porridge all over me in the bed. Gosh, but on you go. Did you sleep the night before, I was wondering? No, not really. I was getting a good sleep until she did that. And then I had to have a shower, wash all my pyjamas. And I was just like lying like just awake until I got taken to the marathon, basically.

But I thought, well, at least, you know, you've given it your best shot. You tried. And, you know, what I thought was so cute, your girlfriend Kate made a tiny little medal for Audrey as well. Look, you're holding it up to the camera, which is just the marathon medal, but in miniature and your number off your race there as well.

You know, I'm wondering what it felt like to cross that finish line I just want to play something for you because you probably heard me there talking to our listeners about

what do they have in their ears if they play something going running or walking maybe at the gym whatever the thing might be to motivate you

I want to play this for you Give me one moment in your time for you. How does it feel to hear it again? Because that was your song going over the line. Oh, I can feel, I can see you're emotional. Yeah, of course. Yeah, sorry. I don't want to cry again.

But my playlist was on shuffle, so I had no control over what was coming up. And just as I was approaching Birdcage Walk, as I was coming up past Big Ben, that song started playing. And I just thought, wow, it's like it's meant to be. And I just thought, run as fast as you can, Adele. Get to Kate.

Take little Audrey and you can do this. And as I came round Buckingham Palace, I managed to finish just before the song. It was amazing. It is amazing. Let's see, Caro. I saw Caro was getting in touch saying, you rock.

I see another one coming in. This is Camilla saying, I saw her at mile 19 smiling ear to ear. What a legend. Here's carriage says you absolutely rock you star well done huge congratulations to the best girl and dj on the radio wow thank you wow um what was it like actually just going through london because i would imagine um there must have been so much support out there for you. Yeah, the crowds just seem to be on every single part of the course. So I thought there's going to be a bit where it thins out, but it didn't.

And it was raining yesterday and there were thousands of people out on the streets and they really are the difference. They help you believe it's not only the other runners as well and seeing why they're running a lot of them will like tell you exactly why they'll have pictures of people that they lost through cancer um through different um diseases and that not only inspires you but all the people are lining the roads as well and it's almost like if you go to the london marathon it is the best of humanity it just reminds you how brilliant we are as a nation. How brilliant you are as well, Adele Roberts. Our Guinness World Record breaking guest starting off Women's Hour this morning. Go and relax, I think, and, you know, take it easy. You so deserve it.

Thank you very much, Nuala. That is some sports news. Good news, happy news. Lots of you getting in touch about what you have in your ears music motivates me but I do like to chat with friends

to help this is with when you're exercising my husband does a playlist for me based on the event and distance to keep me going and surprises me

on the tunes well done Adele amazing achievement yes it is Pauline in West Sussex I love running it gives me a chance to see wild birds

flowers trees I'm sorry I think it just jumped for me. But you're not doing music, you're doing nature. Okay. Oh, no, here we go. It gives me a chance to see deer and snakes. I missed that line. The breeze is cleansing. I can concentrate on me. I can think, I can smile and sometimes talk to myself. It's healthy time out. It helps me with my writing. It is pure pleasure. Thanks for that, Pauline. Catherine, also listening to the birds. I never listen to music or podcasts while running. I love hearing the countryside around me.

It sets me up for the day and keeps me grounded. I'm lucky to be running in rural Suffolk. OK, keep them going. 8-4, 8-4-4. Going to stay with sport for a moment because there is bad news with 86 days to go until the start of the

Women's Football World Cup. It will be hosted, as you may know, in Australia and New Zealand and that's this summer. But England's Lionesses captain and our number one on our Women's Hour Power List, Leah Williamson, will no longer be able to participate. She has ruptured her anterior cruciate ligament, or ACL,

and along with her Arsenal teammate and international footballer, Beth Mead, they're just two of several footballers out of action with that very same injury. So we're asking, why are women footballers six times more likely to suffer from it? What sort of impact will the loss of two of the key players have on the England team? And no doubt Serena Vigman is thinking about that this morning. I'm joined by Fiona Thomas, who is women's sports reporter for The Telegraph,

who is also on our sports power list this year for her role in shining a light on women's sport, particularly on that focus of the data gap in women's health and how it relates to elite sports. So really the intersection, Fiona, right, about what we're talking about this morning. I mean, it must be devastating for any athlete. But for Leah this morning, I mean, it must be such a blow. Good morning, Nuala. Yeah, completely. This injury could not have come at a worse time, frankly,

for Leah Williamson, who was the figurehead, frankly, of England's amazing run at the Euros last summer. She's a widely respected female footballer in this country and is said to be one of the top earners now in the women's game. And, yeah, to see her keel over last week while she was in action for her club, Arsenal, in the Women's Super League, you kind of knew straight away that something bad had happened.

The way she sort of stumbled, fell to the ground, she instantly signalled to her coaching team that something wasn't up, something wasn't right. And sure enough, 24 hours later, Arsenal and England confirmed the news that she had indeed suffered an ACL. So, but this is an injury that can sideline somebody for six to nine months?

Yeah, it's a very long time. The rehabilitation period is lengthy if you're an athlete. Funnily enough, I actually interviewed a member of England women's rugby team who's been starring for the Red Roses in the Six Nations at the moment. And she, Tatiana Hurd is her name. She has overcome three ACL injuries during the course of her career and she's only 28. She's been out of, you know, they've ruled her out for at least three or four years, you know, combined when you kind of count them all up. So, yeah, it's a horrible, horrible injury and often requires surgery, which Leo, I believe, is undergoing relatively soon.

But what is it then? Because I mentioned that figure perhaps six times more likely than their male counterparts. What do you think is contributing to that? So the context to all of this, as is common with a lot of women's sports science, is that we sadly don't know the reasons why, mainly because women's bodies haven't been studied enough as they have you know with men's

as fierce debate remains over whether a woman's menstrual cycle is linked to an ACL tear and this is largely due to fluctuations of the female sex hormone estrogen which is thought to increase the laxity of soft tissue structures around the knee genetics has also been found to play a part there was some research published just last year, in fact, that showed that having a family history of ACL injuries more than doubled the odds of sustaining one. And of course, with a lot of these things, you know, there's differences in male and female anatomy. That's often cited as a factor. Women's knees have smaller ligaments, which makes them more injury prone. And I even, in fact, saw some research, I think it was published last year,

which demonstrated that lower levels of breast support are associated with altered trunk and pelvis movement patterns during running, which can lead to imbal um in the way a woman can potentially land now that's that was a very small study um so you know it's it's i'm not saying that that's obviously the main reasons it's so kind of complex this issue and there's so many different reasons so many different hypotheses and there's lots of brilliant people out there doing research in this area. But for sportswomen at the top of their game right now, it literally can't come quick enough.

And it's not where the men's is. You know, the other issue which people have spoken about before, not specifically with ACL perhaps, or maybe they have, is pitches. The pitches that women are playing on compared to the men's. Yeah, definitely. have is pitches the pitches that women are playing on compared to the men's yeah definitely like there's this research that's shown that um that um the likelihood of a woman um suffering an ACL is is greater on an artificial artificial pitches as opposed to kind of grass um and yeah like like I said it's multifactorial the number the reasons why acls are

so rife at the moment in the women's game ironically my own sister had her acl reconstructed just this week she's a grassroots rugby player so this is happening at all levels of of you know women's sport and not just football rugby netball any any sport where um you know women have to jump and land and there's lots of twisting and pivoting and cutting movements going on. So, yeah, it's a massive issue. Right. And going back then to that wider issue of the team, how do you think with Beth, with Leah now, how Serena Vigman might try and, I don't know,

I suppose try and reach a new equilibrium for the team as they go forward because it's just a few months, less than a few months. Exactly, yeah. Losing your captain is obviously a massive blow. Leah is unlikely to play again this year. That's how bad this is. So Serena is going to have to, you know, entrust someone with being a captain

to lead England on the other side of the world when the World Cup gets underway in July. There's talk that it might be Millie Bright. Millie Bright, England are also sweating on the fitness of her. She's a very experienced centre-back for Chelsea who formed that really good, solid partnership with Lille at the Euros last summer.

Alex Greenwood, who is a Manchester City defender, a very kind of experienced ball-playing defender, she could also slot into that role. But yeah, it's the cruelest news for the Lionesses, for Arsenal. It's really untimely. Are they, the Lionesses still, along with the US, the favourites to win, would you say? I think a lot of people would like to think so. You know, there's that adage in sport, isn't there, that one player doesn't make a team. And as harsh as it is to lose a player of such,

you know, a player like Leah Williamson, who, like I said, is that voice of calm and has been throughout, you know, the past 18 months for the Lionesses, you know, I think you still have to kind of rate England as one of the favourites, along with the USA heading into that one, definitely. Let's see what happens.

Let me see who got in touch. Murph says she will be absolutely gutted. Such a shame for her, the team and the fans. That is true. Fiona Tomas, thank you so much for joining us. Women's sports reporter for The Telegraph. I want to turn to Russia next. There are reports that a draft law

that would reclassify feminism as an extremist ideology is under consideration by Russia's state Duma, so the lower chamber of Parliament. The man behind the proposal, Oleg Matveyev, is deputy head of the Committee on Information Policy. He's reported to have described feminists

as agents of the West. Well, I spoke to the prominent women's rights activist and opposition politician, Alana Popova, a little earlier this morning and asked her whether this proposal could become law. 70% among all anti-war activists are women, because we are the vast majority among our population of women. So we have 77 million women and 66 million men in Russia. And also we have an article in our constitution, according to

that article, we are equal with men. And we had this practice in Soviet Union, of course, on the paper, but not in the reality. But we have and we have that tradition to fight for our rights. There is a mistake when mass media highlight that his suggestion was a draft of the law. There is no any draft, no any draft. It was just his idea to label us, to recognize us as extremists. So do you think, though, so there is no draft he discussed his suggestion within the commission of interference of foreign enemies inside or to our internal affairs. So do you think, though, this if it's a proposal and not a draft law, so to speak, or a discussion that has taken place. Do you think it will go further? Do you think that a feminist might be described as an agent of the West or a foreign agent, or indeed feminism might become understood as an extremist ideology in Russia?

Oh, thanks a lot for that question. But we are labeled, many of us are labeled as foreign agents now. So you speak now with a foreign agent. And we have a lot of NGOs who are fighting for women's rights who are labeled as the foreign agents. So we have a lot of articles in our current laws to label us and, you know, to arrest us or to jail us or to just restrict us in our activity. So they don't need any other law or another law or any special law or any standalone law to jail us or just to stop us from doing what we are doing now. So you have been called a foreign agent. And is that why you feel you can't remain in Russia? You're speaking to us from outside of Russia today. No, I'm outside of Russia now because I have my documents issues.

It's not about that I am a foreign agent. Many of my colleagues who are the foreign agents, they are in Russia. And we still have our project named You Are Not Alone working in Russia. You are able to work as a feminist within the country. We all have our possibility to work in Russia, but we are highly oppressed by our official authorities. So everyone who is in Russia, everyone knows that if you're fighting for your rights, for example, if you're a feminist or you're against this war or you're against the current authorities, current officials, the current regime, so you can be arrested for more than 100%. First you will be detained and then you will be arrested. It's just our life in Russia. What it sounds like to me, listening to you, is that there are all these obstacles in your way, being called foreign agents, proposals, if not actual draft laws,

saying that feminism is an extremist ideology. How do you think you're going to be able to change the path, particularly at this time when there is the war in Ukraine and that Russia very much needs to, I suppose, buckle down, agree among itself. You know, President Putin doesn't seem like he's going to change paths, for example,

or interact more with the West? I think we have a lot of examples from outside Russia, how people who have their oppositional views can unite. For example, in Turkey, during the elections, the opposition has the unite candidate or the one candidate to vote for from the opposition side. Also, we have a lot of self-help chains created by feminists, and we are very well organized.

It's like a horizontal movement. It's not a vertical movement. It's not just a, it's just a bottom-up. So we have a lot of initiatives, and we can coordinate our actions with each other. And I think that we are very powerful if we understand it by ourselves. The main reason is that our official ideology tries and tried for many years to prove that we don't have any voice. We need to be less vocal.

We don't have any power to change anything. But I think it's a huge mistake to believe in that. I know it from our fight for the law against domestic violence. You know that I have, you know, it's my dream to adopt this law. That's why I ran for office in 2021 to our state Duma as a candidate. So for our listeners, you ran for office to the state Duma, so the lower House of Parliament in 2021. You campaigned to get domestic violence recognised as a criminal offence, but it was unsuccessful. And I'm wondering why you still feel so hopeful. And also, how would you describe

the situation for people who are experiencing domestic violence? Yes, it wasn't unsuccessful, because I was one of the leaders in my electoral district first. And second, no one believed that we can fundraise any huge sum to campaign because we were restricted to fundraise from foreigners. I'm wondering why you are still so hopeful. And also, how is the situation for people and women who experience domestic violence? The situation is going water in water, the situation itself, because we had more than 16 million victims of domestic violence per year before the war so according to or due to this war there's amount of women um who experience domestic violence now i think it's growing up and it's for sure because we have a lot of uh you know messages from them and ask for help from them to our You Are Not Alone project. And we all know that the situation needs to be changed. But why I'm so optimistic is because the question is, how can we change the situation? Can we be silent? Or can we do something by ourselves?

And I think that their answer is very obvious yes we can do it we can change it because we need to be very very vocal and this is i i need to highlight that this is our historical chance and yes i think that my campaign was very successful because i was donated 95 percent of my donors were women from different regions of Russia. So we have 85 regions and from 84, I think, if I'm not mistaken, women donated money to my campaign, even from the rural areas. And when I asked them, why, what is the reason for you to donate because you need this money by yourself you need to feed your family uh maybe you want me to send this money back to you because you need that money i know it and the answer was just another chance was that no alona i want to support you because

we need someone to fight for us and it's not me. It's about our ideology that violence is prohibited. Violence is not the way how can we build our future. Violence is not the way how can we, you know, I don't know, be very respected in the whole world. Violence is not the way to communicate with our society. Violence is not the way to rule the country. But I'm just thinking, you know, you're speaking to me now, obviously, and you're obviously vocal. But is not the way to rule the country. But I'm just thinking, you know, you're speaking to me now, obviously, and you're obviously vocal. But is your voice really being heard, you know, on state broadcasters, for example, in Russia, to the people within the country? Are you able to be heard? I think I'm able to be heard because our petition was signed by one million people. And I think one million people who are in Russia or who was in Russia, it's a huge amount of people who disagree with current policy, current politics and current authorities in terms of violence. But violence, you know, it's like a brick in a fundamental construction of the whole of our system.

Explain that to me just before I let you go. Sorry, Elena. You feel like violence is like a brick in the structure of the way Russia is built? Yes, right. Because our regime uses violence as an official ideology. So if you have your power, you can do anything you want, and you won't be punished.

You know that in 2017, our state Duma decriminalized domestic violence, one of the hugest part of domestic violence offenses called paboy. Paboy means that someone can beat you within your own family or your intimate partner and if it's a first offense,

mostly he will be just fined and the amount of this fine is equal to an inappropriate parking in the center of Moscow. It's 5,000 rubles, which is equal to 50 pounds. So it's like a parking fine, the first fine, which it would be for domestic violence. But I'm wondering, is there change? I mean, do you have allies within the Duma that are trying to help you and your ideas actually make it into law to change things like that?

No, we don't have any allies now because it's, you know, I think all of the people, they're just the puppets in this huge theater of our current regime. But we have a lot of supporters among society, within the society. So why I highlight the society? Because I think, again, that we don't have any laws which work okay for or to protect your rights in Russia. So you need to fight back and you need to be very vocal by your own. So you need to take that responsibility. So you're talking about the individual.

Alana, just before I let you go, will you go back to Russia? I will. And I want to do that. Yes. And I want to fight back. Alana Popov. I'm Sarah Trelevan. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's

Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. The Russian opposition activist and politician speaking to me earlier. Some of you have been getting in touch instead about running and what you listen to when you do

Here's one from Laura This is such a timely conversation about running and music I'm out enjoying a beautiful trail run at the moment and always time my Monday me time what women's are, thanks for keeping me company and my feet moving Well Laura, thanks for keeping me company Here's another

I did the London Marathon yesterday and accepted to run naked So what I'm talking about when you don't listen to music, no watch, no phone, etc. I forgot my headphones and while the crowds were so supportive,

I still hated every single step. Never, ever again. But I am feeling like the proudest lady in the world today. I ran it for my son, Edward. Oh, well done you and thanks for getting in touch

with Woman's Hour. I want to turn now to our series Under Pressure. You've another chance to hear the first episode. We're looking at what happens to relationships when couples are put under extreme strain. How do they cope? Kate and Annie had been together for more than 30 years when Annie became ill.

In 2021, our reporter Jo Morris went to meet them in Newbiggin in Northumberland. Sadly, Annie died at the end of January this year. Now, Kate was happy for this interview to be repeated as a tribute to her beloved wife. I'm Kate Bromwich-Alexandra with a hyphen. With a hyphen. That's important, is it? It is, yes.

And I'm Annie Bromwich-Alexandra, and I'm Kate's wife. So you live in a remote fishing village. Did you have any doubts about moving here, someone quite remote, as a lesbian couple? There's been times when we were younger when we wouldn't have considered it for a second. When you're a young dyke about town, you need a city, you need a community, you know. I think for me, I just got to the stage where, you know, well, they can either like us or leave us alone, I don't care. So we just came and we were just ourselves and New Begin has been nothing but good for us and to us, hugely supportive. So when this happened...

I've been diagnosed with blood cancer, myeloma, multiple myeloma. I'm on the lowest dose of medication now because everything that I've had has failed. I'm comfortable. I haven't asked the big question about timings or anything like that. That's been probably the last three or four months that we've had those sort of discussions with my oncologist. I'm not going to ask.

Was it a joint decision not to ask? Yeah. It's Annie's decision, really. It's her life. If she wants to know, then I'll go along with that. I would rather not know. Why do you not want to know? It would feel like we were on a countdown.

They're not soothsayers, are they? They're just doctors. I'm not as frightened as I was. I'm accustomed to it now. I don't need to know how long it is. It has changed everything. I'm not just her partner, I'm her carer. And that's a massive change.

I just wish it could be different. But it can't. It is what it is. I hadn't settled that corner down with enough glue, had I? So where are we going? Into the hallway. Annie can climb aboard Sisyphus, her stairlift.

Ready for the off? Shall I pipe you aboard, Captain? Sorry, microphone. Aye, aye. Just negotiating the turn. did you sneak a kiss down Kate? I did does she often do that Annie?

yes nothing like a kiss on a stair lift who knew such delights were ahead of us that picture on the wall is a picture of the sky above Cannock Chase, the night sky, on the 22nd of July 1988. And it was our youngest daughter, Alex, who got it made for us for our 30th anniversary.

Why is that place special? Because that's where we went the day we met. Yeah. Flirted on the benches. It was such a lovely place. Birds, coots and deer in among the trees, if you were quiet enough. We used to see them lots, didn't we? Yes, we used to see them.

People used to say, I've never seen deer on canning trays, but you've got to sit still. If you sit still and wait, they will come. And that was our family tree. And it has Annie and Kate. 10th of December 2014, so it was when we got married. And you've got Susie, Katie and Alex.

Yeah. Your daughters and your granddaughter. Katie, who hates being called Katie now. She's Caitlin. Your granddaughter? Yeah. Preserving our relationship has always been our number one priority

from the very beginning. When we first met and when we fell in love and we decided we wanted to be together i cannot tell you how demanding we were of each other because we'd had relationships that hadn't worked for various reasons we never wanted to be in the position where we had fights we don't fight i came from a family my parents, my mother in particular, would say horrible things and would use physical violence as well. And she would say to people, oh, we just scream our heads off at each other and then it's all forgotten. And it wasn't forgotten.

It definitely wasn't forgotten by me. How did you two meet? We were introduced by a mutual acquaintance. She used to say to Annie, I know this woman, I think you two would get on because we were both very political and feminists and we went for lunch and I knew instantly that I was in trouble. I just felt like I'd been hit by a bus. And I was in a relationship with somebody else. She was just coming to the end of a relationship with somebody else, long-term relationship. 33 years ago in 88, what were your first impressions of Kate, Annie? I immediately held out my hand to shake hands,

which was very, very formal. Kate Annie. I immediately held out my hand to shake hands, which was very, very formal, and I thought, this woman is going to think I'm completely barmy. I just had to make contact with her. You wanted to touch her. It was just different to anything that I'd ever known, and I was also a little bit distracted by thinking of all the shit that it was going to bring down on my head. We just talked and talked and talked.

We were flirting with each other. I've never flirted in my life. I mean, forget it, it's the 80s, isn't it? Things were very different for lesbians. In Staffordshire as well. That year, it was the year of Clause 28, when all the dreadful books were taken out of school libraries that were going to...

Corrupt all the children. Corrupt our children. We'd both been on the marches and did our bit. I was not going to pretend any more about who I was. Had you pretended in the past? Well, yes, I had. And when you said Annie you said you were where a whole load of shit was going to come down is that because you were in a already in a relationship? Yes yeah my life was in a complete mess then there was Kate. So you were

very physically attracted to each other are you still? Oh. Oh yeah. Myeloma has done Annie's body a lot of damage. All chemo has an effect on your sexual self. So the sexual side of our relationship, I can't believe I'm saying this, may have changed but the intimacy hasn't and that is really important for us I have to be a lot more careful because she has delicate bones so I have to be careful how I hold her in bed touch is such an important thing you're able to still share a bed? Yeah. Yes. It's taken a lot away from us has myeloma. It's not taking that. No. We'll fight it all the way on that one. Yeah. I don't want Annie to feel like I'm her carer. Why not? Because I'm her partner. What does this point in your relationship feel like?

Well, it feels... Well, it undoubtedly is, and it feels like the hardest thing we've ever had to face. And yet, amazingly, we haven't lost our ability to laugh at things. And we allow ourselves to cry when we need to. It feels like we've been brought to the nub of what life's all about, really. Yeah. Annie is living, you're both living with Annie's terminal illness. It's such a stressful time in your lives why did

you want to talk to us? When was the last time you heard a story about an older lesbian couple and there's lots of us about but still a lot of people that are very isolated and afraid and have homophobic families and let's face it the world's pretty bloody hostile at the moment in all sorts of ways, not least to women. I think we like talking about our relationship. Well, I like talking about our relationship and Annie joins in. Well, you know, I've had a lot of steroids and so I can't remember much. I would say that was the case before you ever had steroids, but never mind.

How dare you? That on there, the lesbian symbol, we had that made as the first public declaration. We hung it in the window and thought, well, you don't like it tough. Everywhere you look, there's just lovely things to look at. Another friend bought us that just after Annie's diagnosis, and she'd lost her partner to cancer. It's a quote by Martin Luther King.

It says you don't have to see the whole staircase just to take the first step. I think it's very apt and very true, but Annie doesn't need to take the first step even now. She just has to sit in Sisyphus. At the start left. Yeah. When did you both come out? It's a funny question to ask now, isn't it?

You come out all your lives, you know. What do you mean by that? Well, because people are always assuming, even though I think you just have to look at us surely you know but apparently not. We're always assumed to be sisters wherever we go. Oh yeah a lot we get lots of that especially as we've got older. How do you feel Annie when people think you're sisters? We are part of the sisterhood. Yes I can't let go an opportunity, really, of doing a bit of teaching, of making some comment, and maybe they'll remember it when they meet the next gay couple.

There we are in the Morpeth Herald. So this is when you got married? Mm-hm. So you were the first lesbian couple to get married in the whole county of Northumberland? Yes. That's quite an achievement, isn't it? Historic marriage at the town hall.

It didn't make any difference in terms of our relationship, but it means if we go somewhere that such things are important, like hospital, Annie introduces me as her wife and I get treated differently than if I was her partner. And there's two daughters, Susie and Alex. Susie's the older one, Alex is the baby. So what's the age gap between them? 20 years. Susie's from my brief foray into heterosexual marriage. It was just a brief foray?

Extremely brief, yes. I was 18. By the time I was 20, 21, I was living with a woman in Litchfield. So what happened, you might be asking? Because I was raised in a Catholic family who had very fixed ideas about how things should be. And I'd never heard the word lesbian until I was in my 20s and read it in the News of the World. They were talking about the killing of Sister George, which is a great advert for lesbians. The film with Beryl Reid and Susanna York?

Yeah. And I thought, oh, that must be what I am then. As soon as I heard the word lesbian, I looked it up in the dictionary, as we all did. Every lesbian back then, that's what they did. So you had your second daughter together, obviously you're both her mums. Which one of you is the biological mum? Well, I'm not going to tell you that. I could tell you and then kill you after. So you've made a conscious decision not to tell?

We have made it. Well, it came from Alex, who was always very open about her origins. She realised that people would ask her, which one is your real mum? And she'd say, well, they're both my real mum. But we didn't adopt her. We fought for the right to have parental responsibility yes joint parental responsibility that wasn't available to same-sex couples we got the help of a wonderful barrister in london said it's not a gay issue or a lesbian issue it's a human rights issue so he worked pro

bono for us which was just as hard because we couldn't have afforded it and now brief told us that we were the first outside the high court and that alex would be written up in the law books as child a which she's quite chuffed about actually do you see yourself as pioneers that sounds a little bit pompous I suppose it's about being true to yourself, isn't it? Deciding not to hide and not to always pretend to be something that you're not so that other people that you don't care about won't be upset. You've been through so much and are going through so much as a couple. Have you ever thought that this relationship

might not be able to take the pressure no not for a second we've seen people I think upset with each other and cross with each other in the waiting room haven't we yeah feeling everything that everybody sat there is feeling and they're sort of sniping at each other about something or other. That's so sad. You know I can't escape now because I can't carry a case now. I couldn't get my luggage out. You'd have to get me to carry it out to the door. That was good.

Such a compelling listen listen isn't it that was kate and annie bromich alexandra and so sadly annie died just this january we do send of course our condolences and our best wishes to kate hearing her their story again i want to turn next on Woman's Hour to a court case. You might have been following this over the weekend. The US Supreme Court has preserved access to a commonly used early abortion pill.

It's a ruling that the drug Mifepristone can remain available while this legal case continues. So the Supreme Court in the States, it was asked to look into the matter after opposing rulings from two federal judges. So bear with me here.

I know it's a little bit complicated. In Texas, one judge ruled to suspend the approval of the drug, while in Washington State, another judge ruled to preserve access to the pill. Now the case will return to the Court of Appeals,

but it will possibly, likely, return to the Supreme Court in the case will return to the Court of Appeals, but it will possibly, likely, return to the Supreme Court in the future. So people have been watching this really closely. It's been described as the most significant case since the Supreme Court

ended the right to abortion that was last year. You'll remember overturning the landmark 1973 Roe v. Wade case. And that, in turn, led to most abortions being banned in 13 states. So the right to the constitutional right to an abortion was overturned. So why did two courts

come to two different decisions? And what impact could there be for the states? Well, let me bring in my guest Emma Long right now. Tell us a little bit about how you see the weekend's decision really in the context of what has happened thus far with Roe v Wade. Hi, good morning. I mean, for a lot of people, the ruling at the weekend will lead, will be something of a relief in that it leaves everything pretty much as it was before these cases um that we've been talking about so much for the last couple of weeks

started so in effect nothing much has has changed um longer term of course the the question remains about what might happen um what might happen at the appeals court level, what the Supreme Court might eventually rule. We already know, for example, that there are some states where pharmacists are not even stocking mifepristone at the moment because they've been threatened by state law in those states that have very strict abortion restrictions. So although this decision allows for greater access, there are some places still where that access is restricted because of the actions of the state. But Emma, and I should say you're Associate Professor of American Literature and Politics at the University of East Anglia. How long do you expect these court cases to continue

to be tussled? Because I know some states were stockpiling, for example, when it came to the drug Mifepristone. Yes, indeed, they have been because they were concerned about what might happen and what the approval might be. You know, the decision in Texas effectively rescinded the approval of this drug by the Federal Food and Drug Agency, which meant that people could not get hold of more, but they could use what they already had, hence the stockpiling. These cases can be notoriously long. So as you mentioned, it's going back to the Fifth Circuit, which will hear this as a full case, which is likely to be several months between the hearing and the final written decision. And then it has to be appealed to the Supreme Court,

which again can take a period of time. So we're probably not looking for a final decision on this until well into 2024, most likely. But the question mark is going to remain over this for quite some time it's an interesting one though right because you mentioned the fda the food and drug administration and for those that are against abortion um they would have seen the supreme court ruling as bad news uh but they're talking about the safety of that drug so it's perhaps different to some of the abortion battles we have seen previously. And isn't it something perhaps that they could take up with other states? Would that be possible with the way the system is, the court system across the states? They could, but I think it's more likely what they're going to do is wait and see because the court, the Supreme Court has effectively said with this

particular decision this weekend, we are not going to make any major changes until this has been heard by the lower court. Now the Fifth Circuit is the one that's furthest through that process at the moment. So they could try to bring it in other states, but I think they wouldn't get a different result. So it's better to focus on this one and see what happens. In terms of whether this is different, it is and it isn't. On one hand, yes, you're right, they're making arguments about the safety of this pill, although the FDA and others are saying, well, you know, it went through rigorous testing at the time, and we've got 20 years of data which shows that it's actually safer than pregnancy in some cases. But this argument about the safety of abortion and protecting women's health is an argument that anti-abortion activists have been making for a very long time. And, you know, previous restrictions before the overturning

of Roe versus Wade were also justified on the grounds of protecting women's health. So that argument might be specific in this case, but it's not new in the general battle over abortion. Because I wonder, you know, is there another drug that could be substituted, for example, instead of Mifepristone, because it is a two drug regimen, if I understand correctly, when it comes to abortions, they focused in on this particular drug. But could it be substituted out? I'm trying to, I suppose, game out how this argument might proceed. Yeah, there's a second drug in the two drug

protocol is uh misopristol i think it's pronounced um and that has been authorized to be used uh by itself without uh misopristone and in fact that was sort of going to be i think a lot of people's backup um should the supreme court take the opposite approach to the one that it did. But it's widely considered by medical professionals not to be quite as effective, both in terms of abortion, but also in terms of managing other conditions. So, yes, there is an alternative, but the medical community tells us that it Court, as we know, in the future. But the Supreme Court, it was a split decision. So I'm wondering what that tells us about the fight over abortion rights, if anything. It's difficult to tell so much about what the Supreme Court does is done behind closed doors.

There was one judge, though, that came out with some of his reasoning. Yeah, the decision was seven to two to put these decisions on hold. Justice Samuel Alito who wrote a four-page opinion and also Justice Clarence Thomas who dissented silently which is not necessarily neither is particularly unusual. I don't think that necessarily tells us much we both know from speeches and public that they've given, as well as their position in the Dobbs case last year, that they both oppose abortion, both legally and in terms of personal position. So the fact that they objected to this is not surprising. We don't know how the other seven justices voted. That wasn't recorded and it often isn't in these kinds of rulings so we don't know whether it was a 5-4 or 6-3. That's what I was trying to get at okay. We simply don't know and we probably won't know for another 100 years or so until one of the justices papers gets

open to archivists. Which is always interesting but can I go to the country as well? Because looking at across 22 states where new restrictions took effect after the overturning of Roe v. Wade, some permissive rules abortion rising by 12 percent just do we know how difficult it is to get an abortion now um but i know a lot of this will be pills sent via mail so a state line is a nebulous thing uh it is but there are also challenges to that um places trying to to find ways of getting around, of making it impossible to send those. Even before the decision last year, the vast majority of early stage abortions took place were medication abortions. So the decision had some impact, not to downplay that, but a lot of the states that you're just mentioning already had very strict regulations, which made it very hard for people to get access

to abortion services. So while this is eking, you're right, it's eking those numbers downwards and certainly having an impact. I think it's probably worth remembering that it was actually quite difficult for a lot of people to get access before. Emma Long, thank you so much. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm Helen Lewis, and I want to tell you about a podcast I've made for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. It's called The New Gurus, and it's about how everywhere you look on the internet, people are giving advice. Advice they claim will transform your life.

Advice that gets them thousands, no, millions of devoted followers. These online prophets are telling us how to eat, how to think, how to get rich, how to find love, how to manage our time. These are the new gurus. Just as people will say the Protestant Reformation and the printing press went hand in hand, so too did this birth of the new internet culture really give rise to this new religious landscape.

Subscribe now to The New Gurus on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.