Woman's Hour - Russian journalist-in-exile Elena Kostyuchenco, Karen Farquharson, Teleri Glyn Jones, Nerys Evans, Innes Fitzgerald

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

After the invasion of Ukraine by Russia on 24 February 2022, Elena Kostyuchenco, one of Russia’s most fearless independent journalists, crossed into Ukraine to report on what was happening in the country. The paper she had worked at for 17 years, Novaya Gazeta, was shut down just months later in response to her reporting. Elena’s latest book, I Love Russia, gives a rare insight into her homeland, bringing us voices we have never heard. She speaks to Emma Barnett. We hear from Karen Farquharson who has been awarded £37,000 at an employment tribunal after her boss told her she used the menopause as an “excuse for everything”. In a separate case, a woman assisted by the Equality and Human Rights commission says her menopausal symptoms should be considered, in her case, as a disability. The economist Vicky Pryce comments on the potential implications of the case. We talk to BBC Wales political correspondent Teleri Glyn Jones about the victimisation of a whistle-blower and a complainant who made allegations of a serious nature about the Plaid Cymru MS Rhys ab Owen. Both say they were harassed by a family member of the MS who has been suspended from his party since last November pending an investigation by the Welsh Parliament’s standards watchdog. Emma Barnett also talks to former Plaid Cymru politician Nerys Evans who recently produced the damning report into Plaid’s sexual harassment complaints procedures earlier this year. Innes Fitzgerald is the current under 17s UK number one in the 3000 metres and she’s made the conscious decision to no longer fly to any championships or running events abroad. She’s been nominated for Young Athlete of the Year in the BBC Green Sports Awards. She joins Emma to tell us more. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Sue Maillot

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Here we are again on a Monday and there's a lot going on on the economic front. Doctors on strike over wages and conditions, water bills potentially set to rise and a Chancellor promising to toughen sanctions for people on benefits who do not take steps to find work at the same time as announcing the national living wage is set to increase to at least £11 an hour from next April. It is Conservative Party conference season and it's the day we hear about the numbers but it's quite a morning

on the financial front for one woman in particular. She's making a large statement about her own ability to earn money. In a legal first, Maria Rooney, a social worker, is claiming the menopause is a disability as she sues her former employer. We're going to hear from another woman shortly, Karen Farkerson, who just won her tribunal last week after her boss said she was using the menopause as an excuse for everything. But do you support a law change that could see menopause badged as a disability, treated as a disability legally? As you think about that in the context today with the Chancellor talking about economic inactivity, as you perhaps reflect on your own symptoms, if you've been through it, perhaps they were anything but debilitating.

They were something that you didn't notice. Perhaps they were completely debilitating. Perhaps you haven't reached this stage in life and you cling to hear from those who have or you have a view regardless. I would like to hear from you today. The number is 84844. That's the number you need to text me here at Women's Hour. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website or a WhatsApp message. Lots of contacts, as you could hear, a voice note using the number 03700 100 444. I know there will be strong views on this and you don't have to have had the experience directly to have a view because this is really about women's working lives and how we are treated

and how the law caters or does not cater for us as we go through them. And there are changes that have been made along the way that have benefited women. But as we look at a potential another moment for the law in this country, when it comes to the way women are treated in the workplace. I mean, it may not change. I say that in terms of a legal first and it being precedent. What would you support and why? Also on today's programme, I'll be joined by the woman described as one of Russia's most fearless independent journalists.

It's an incredible story, truly. I mean that. So that's all coming up later in the program that story and to be joined by her by elena and the young athlete of the year in the bbc green sports awards in as fitzgerald is here she's unable to compete in many of her races because she won't fly to reach the destinations but she does get there sometimes what's that like and what's that going do? Talking about women in the workplace to her chosen career at the moment. I can already see many messages coming in. Let's actually come to them straight away, just before I talk to my first guest. Menopause, as with so

many things in life, just get on with it and stop being so self-absorbed, reads this anonymous message. Lola on Twitter. No, I don't think overall it should be classed as a disability, but severe symptoms can be disabling and thus could be classed as individual disabilities. For example, extreme brain fog can affect how a woman is able to do her job. And some of you pointing out for a period of time, it's not forever. Phoebe on Twitter, for some it's OK, for others it's completely disabling, affecting every waking moment of their lives. So yes, for some it is a disability. Elizabeth, good morning to you. No, menopause is a natural phase of change.

The problem is not menopause, but a society that prioritises economic production over quality of life. Menopause can be difficult. I'm 64. I know you have to make changes. This can be a positive thing. Elizabeth, to that point, others saying about whether you can afford for it to be a positive thing or not, because of course, we're living in the society we're living in. And another one here on Twitter, menopause is often a debilitating condition, which is never invited or welcomed in by women. It is a condition enforced on us by nature, which we have no choice but to go through and endure. It's an interesting point of view that I remember interviewing a couple of women when I was researching this with regards to periods and

some women actually saying it wasn't something they'd even thought about but when it happened it wasn't necessarily positive but there were things they could take from it. So no not necessarily everyone would welcome it but I don't think you can say everyone wouldn't either. It's a very personal thing as well I'm aware of that. But let's get to this case today just to say a couple more things about it. The Equality and Human Rights Commission, the EHRC, is supporting this employment tribunal that a social worker has brought. Maria Rooney says she was harassed, victimised and received unfavourable treatment while going through the menopause. She claims her health was ignored by her employer, by Leicester City Council, and that menopause is a disability in what is a legal first. A spokesman for Leicester City Council said it wasn't appropriate

to comment on the case at this time. Well, someone listening to this who has experience of what it's like to take on a place of work, talking about the menopause and the symptoms of it, my next guest, Karen Farkerson. Karen was awarded £37,000 at an employment tribunal after her boss told her she was using the menopause as an excuse for everything. She was an office manager at a company called Thistle Marine, that's a company in Scotland. She'd worked there for nearly 30 years, 27 years of service. She was an office manager at a company called Thistle Marine. That's a company in Scotland. She'd worked there for nearly 30 years, 27 years of service. She was met with these remarks when she arrived late to work following heavy snow and severe menopausal symptoms.

Karen has now successfully sued her employer for unfair dismissal and harassment. You may have seen the headlines about this last week. Let's talk to Karen now. Good morning. Good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Yeah, nice to be here. It must have been quite a few days, I imagine. It has been. It's been, my phone's been red hot.

Yes, because this is very new. Your verdict only came in last week, but I know you've been preparing for this for some time, this case. Yes, six months. How has that been? Because the process of actually doing this is a big one. Yes, it is. Lots of meetings with my HR representative that did my case for me. Lots of preliminary hearings

and lots of preparation mentally as well. What was happening where you worked? What was something that you started to notice was being said about you or how did this all begin? It was just a snowball effect really that came to a head one Thursday afternoon when I came into work. I'd actually been working from home during the symptoms so I didn't call in sick, I worked from home and then when it was possible to travel I came up to work and I was met with rude comments by my director.

Do you mind sharing what some of them are? Well, he said, oh, I see you made it in then and walked away. And I explained my situation and what was happening with myself. And I then approached another director and I said, he can't talk to me like that. You know why I was working from home. I need to explain the situation. But then that director interrupted and said, menopause, menopause. Everybody gets the menopause.

You just have to deal with it. That's your excuse for everything. But it was full of swear words as well. And what did you say? I burst into tears. I was hysterical. I couldn't believe I was being met with those comments. A place you'd worked at, as I mentioned, nearly 30 years. Yes. I'd known them for 27 and a half years.

And then what was the rest of the day like? What happened after then? Were you comforted? No, I was shouted at even more and they were asking me to calm down because I was very upset and I just had to leave. I said I had to get out of this situation and I went to my car and phoned my husband. And was that it? Were you able to return? Were you able to do anything else? No, I had to go. I went and sought legal advice

because I was just in utter shock at what happened and went home and I submitted a grievance letter, which was ignored. What were your symptoms? And what are your symptoms? Present tense, I know you're still in the process of this. Yes, still in process. I've got brain fog. I've got lots of emotional anxiety anxiety i can cry very quickly i can get upset

very quickly i get very stressed i am i'm in constant pain because i've also got a condition called adenomyosis and that is currently being investigated and i i have to say i'm sorry to say i know it well i have it myself uh it's not very pleasant it's extremely unpleasant so i'm very sorry on all of this but i am for people who don't know about that it is extremely painful yeah well i had that on top of the regular menopause symptoms and had you had to deal with as well. Yes. Had you told the people you were working with? Because you said that there was, obviously they used it against you. So you must have at some point had a conversation.

Yes. Back in August 21, when I started going through the perimenopause, I was up front with them and explained the situation. And how was that greased? They seemed to be fine about it. I hadn't noticed anything untoward, but I worked with the younger director. The older director,

he didn't like people taking time off, end of. That was his mantra. He's been quoted from the proceedings, it's on the public record, as calling people who took time off snowflakes. That is correct. So you felt comfortable enough to say you were going through these symptoms and just because it's relevant to today's case and what some of our listeners are getting in touch about, were you saying you needed time away or were you saying you needed to work differently? What were you asking for by sharing this or about were you saying you needed time away or were you saying you needed to work differently what were you asking for by sharing this or what were you hoping to achieve by saying this I was looking for an apology from them to be fair no no sorry when you when you first raised

it as symptoms were you were you saying you still work, but you might need to work differently when you first said? Yes, yes. I could work from home if it was needed. And nobody seemed to say no to that. I had full use of working facilities at home. I used to have to drive an hour to work and an hour home, and it's quite uncomfortable driving when you're experiencing symptoms. So the point was you weren't saying, I can't do my job.

You were asking how you could do it a bit differently based on these symptoms. And then you've described how things reached ahead and then how you went forward with the grievance procedure. Can I ask, at that time, did you realise that it was discrimination? I mean, you've just been successful in this tribunal, but you know when something's happening at the time, you don't always think of it in that way. Does that make sense?

Yeah. I was more in shock that I'd been spoken to like that at first it was just this pure disbelief I just couldn't believe that somebody that I'd known all that time could speak to me like that I got in touch with an HR consultant and explained the situation and he said that there was a definite case there. And you went forward with it? You decided to go for it? Yeah. Because that's another thing, having to find the courage to go forward.

It sure is. It's been the most upsetting and quite liberating that I've held them to account. At the same time, my mental health has suffered greatly this year, but I've found that this week with the support I've got, that's been really helping me. What did it feel like when you heard the verdict when you heard that you had won? Pure relief and that I'd made them accountable for what they did. Yeah it must have been an incredible feeling. I was really pleased for women out there as well because it can show them that they can do it too and not stand up for it. And doing it while you're going through the menopause still?

Yeah and holding down another full-time job job because you do have another job we should say that yeah yeah how do you think you're going to be moving forward now having gone through this process having won and still going through the menopause I want to help others now I want to support other women that's going through it they shouldn't be alone in this and they need to speak up for themselves with their employers You are living proof

that you can work through the menopause even with very difficult symptoms Are there days where you don't feel like you can work? For sure. Yeah, for sure. Sometimes the pain is just unbeatable. Okay. Because we are getting so many messages in from our listeners

about whether it should go as far in this legal first as there is an attempt to do so today. I know you don't know the details of the case and not all the details are out there yet, but there is this attempt to say that menopause is a disability. Not necessarily on the legal side of that, but what's your kind of gut reaction to that when you hear it, having just gone through a tribunal? Would you welcome that? I would definitely welcome that. But as you you said earlier some women do sail through it um and others have a totally different experience let's see what some of our listeners think we'll

talk about the economic impact with an economist in a moment but just with you and your friends your family i know your husband's also been a support has going through this process also helped them understand how to better support you for sure oh definitely yeah I am I just some of them didn't realize the impact that it was having on me and uh what what happened at work it wasn't until the judgment came through and they could see it for themselves exactly what I did go through. Do you think you've changed anyone's minds at your old place? Well, no, your old place of work. Do you think that... I wouldn't know.

Yeah, it's hard, isn't it, to know? But your case being in the newspapers at least prompts a conversation perhaps for people. Yes. I've got friends that are now bringing up at their employers now really yeah karen it's lovely to have you on the program uh thanks thanks for speaking to me i hope that you um you you go easy today and and that it continues to get if it can a bit easier on all fronts karen farquharson there thank you thank. So many messages. There's a text here from an employer. As an employer myself, I'm afraid that labelling the menopause as a disability is simply going to make me even more wary of employing women generally. Small employers

already try to avoid employing women who are likely to get pregnant. As things stand, this risk has disappeared by the time women reach the menopause. However, if the menopause is likely to provide a reason to take large amounts of time away from work and to enable the employee to sue for disability discrimination, most small employers will simply avoid employing them at all. Lynn in Devon. Do we really need a law? I don't think so. Perhaps a more flexible attitude in the workplace and more understanding. Hot flushes and brain fog can certainly affect a woman's confidence. I will come back to more of your messages in just a moment. There are many, please do keep them coming in. It gives us a real insight into what you're thinking about this.

Let's now hear from Vicky Price, the chief economic advisor at the Centre for Economic and Business Research and the author of a book called Women versus Capitalism. Why we can't have it all in a free market economy. We spoke just before I came on air and I started by asking for her reaction to Karen's case that you were just hearing. I think it's very good news. It does show recognition that women do go through menopause and it has all sorts of impacts on them. And I think it's pretty good if the employers also adjust for that, because otherwise you lose quite a lot of well-educated and actually quite senior women at that point who perhaps will decide to withdraw from the labour market. Which is a trend I know you've looked at and how women work. I'm thinking of the Chancellor's comments today about how to get people to work and to be incentivised.

That's how some may put it, others may put it differently. But this court case today, which is trying to show that menopause is a disability, what do you make of that? That worries me a little bit because women are not disabled. They're just going through a phase which requires a little bit more attention. So being labelled with that actually could be quite detrimental and may make them being looked at differently in the workplace and I think that may have

quite substantial negative consequences. But why if we have, as we are having today, a social worker, Maria Rooney, who's being supported by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. Why, if she says she was harassed, victimised and received unfavourable treatment while going through the menopause, should she not argue that it is a form of disability?

Well, I mean, the truth is that women also have children and sometimes they get fired for that, even though they're not supposed to. And also they're still asked at interviews, even though it's illegal, how they're going to look after their children when they go for a job whereas men are not being asked the same question they're not disabled they're just different and those differences should be in many ways celebrated rather than it being considered to be something negative that women have to go through in such a way that labels them

as being disabled not you know, in fact, to do the work that others can do. You need to adjust for various periods of your life, including when you have children, but that does not mean that a pregnant woman is disabled. No, and everyone will have different experiences. But just being mindful of some of the more extreme experiences of menopause, which rather than when you come back to work after having children, and we know that there are major issues with childcare, if I could just put that to one side for a moment, there are women who describe symptoms

which do physically stop them, they say, from being able to do their job. Yes, I think what they can then argue is that they need a little bit more time to recover because obviously these things don't last forever. We know that women do go through menopause and out again and they need to get the type of help that allows them to carry on i mean right now there is so much ability to do work from home hybrid work and so on it shouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibility to have

arrangements for them that allows them to continue to participate uh participate at work in a reasonable way and don't lose out. Because once women, if they are unable to carry on doing what they were doing before, start doing either part-time jobs or start looking at different ways in which they can earn a living, they tend to work well below their skill level and the economy loses quite significantly. What we need to do is encourage them to get through the phase and carry on contributing. And just though while you're in the phase, I mean, encourage them to get through the phase. I know you're not here talking of the capacity as a support system or on the medical

side, but it's quite a phase for some. And I wonder from your perspective about how to keep women contributing to the economy and contributing to their own bottom line. Do you think all of the laws, all of the rules are there if you don't have a workplace or a boss who is in line with that type of thinking? No, I don't think all the rules are there. It's a warrant for equal opportunity, equal pay. So I think something needs to be done to ensure that when women find themselves in this position, their employer is forced to give them some support because at the end of the day it makes very good business case to continue to have all these people you invested in continuing to operate when they come through this phase but also while they're going through

with different ways of working so right now we're trying to encourage all the workers to come back to work well all the workers may need some special support well again the employer may not decide to invest on this but government needs to intervene to ensure that that happens so i'm afraid almost every attempt that women have made in the past has been through legislation not necessarily through the employer making the changes that are required so you wouldn't support the menopause becoming a disability but you would support what i would support is becoming a sort of like a prescriptive condition like for example you know different religion or sexual orientation so it is just seen as something else that you've got to accept as part of the overall workforce that you employ. And then with that and thinking about the

Chancellor's comments today talking about the number of people who are currently not working, who aren't registered as having a disability and the desire to get those people back into work, those who've been not working for longer than a year. And at the same time, making an announcement about, for instance, boosting the living wage. It's set to increase, we believe, in his speech. It's going to be announced later, at least £11 an hour from next April. What impact do these words have with your knowledge of women and women's role post-pandemic in our productivity as a country? Well, it's very, very interesting. Because post-pandemic, mainly because of their hybrid work,

I know we're wanting to get more people back into work. If you look at the types of jobs that you can do from home more easily, which offer hybrid, you've seen women move from working part-time to working full-time now, which of course is the main way to ensure that they have proper progression and they earn sufficiently through their lifetime. So I think that's good news. So I think that they need to be encouraged more. And the whole issue of the menopause itself, of course, is one that quite a lot of women have probably gone already through. And now what they're doing is they're coming back to work. And not just older women, but also younger women

who had decided before to work part-time to look after their kids now find that there is a lot more support around for them to be doing things differently. I think that's good news and I think it should be celebrated. It's good news. And then overall, just so I'm clear, because I know it's changed, does that mean women's economic activity post-pandemic is up or the employment levels of women is up? Because there was a concern about an exodus of women during the pandemic.

They've come back in big numbers, actually, because they needed to, because of cost of living issues. Until now, do they come back and work full time, which is really how they can earn a reasonable amount of wages, which keeps them all going. And I think what's happening now is that that is improving, as I said, in terms of particularly professional services and managerial jobs. It's not, of course, happening lower down where there's still big, big issues

when you have to be out and work and still have all the pressures that you've got to face. But overall, employment has gone up of women since the pandemic, and I think that's good news, although loads and loads have opted out of the system because of the extra stress that they had, lockdowns, children, schools being closed and all that sort of stuff. Just finally, if this court case, if it is successful

in creating a kind of test case, a legal precedent of menopause becoming a disability, as an economist, what do you think the impact of that could be? It could put loads of people even mentioning that they have problems with the menopause so they don't get labelled as disabled because that could affect the way in which they progress through whichever organisation they're in. What you really want is not to lose these people because you want women to also be at the top of organisations and we're still way below that. So I think there are some concerns. Of course, it all depends how it's handled. But I do fear that loads of women

would just not want to be labelled that way. The Economist, Vicky Price. A message here, you're getting in touch with your view on the idea of menopause being seen legally as a disability with this court case happening today. In your debate on menopause, please could you take into consideration that many women have no menopausal symptoms whatsoever. From personal experience and the testimony of several friends and colleagues, apart from the cessation of periods, we had absolutely none. Zilch, zero symptoms. A positive, not a negative experience.

The prospect of menopause being labelled as a disability is positively mystifying, an anonymous message signed as such. I'm a 56-year-old and had menopause or symptoms for eight years. Hot flushes, brain fog, teary for the smallest things. I'm less tolerant to people's bad behaviour. I worry about the effects on my career and I feel no one cares about us. Again, no name. Regarding the menopause, my fear is that if we classify it as a disability, are we suggesting by extension that being a woman is a disability? Wouldn't it be nice if we had a more empathetic society where legal action is not necessary?

As an employment lawyer, the law is sufficient as it is. If symptoms of menopause have had a significant and long-term adverse impact on ability to carry out day-to-day tasks, then the law may already recognise menopause as a disability in extreme cases. In most, it will not be. And so it goes on, just a couple more if I can. I have my own business and I found the menopause extremely challenging in terms of my work. I have overwhelming anxiety, increased migraines,

among many other symptoms. I feel I've had no choice but to work through it despite how hard it's been. If I take time off, my business stops. I don't feel I've had any option about not working because I don't think I would even be able to get benefits, which is, of course, in the news about who is getting benefits and who is working and who isn't. If the menopause was medically recognised, that would be a start. And I think that there's so much that could be done to support women at this time of their lives. Unless you've experienced it, I don't think you can have an inkling of what it's like, says Philippa, listening in Nottingham. Thank you for getting in touch. Well, in support of the woman bringing this court case today against Leicester City Council is the Equality and Human Rights Commission. There's a statement that we have from the chairwoman of the commission, Commission, excuse me, Baroness Kisha Faulkner, who says menopause symptoms can significantly affect someone's ability to work. Employers have a responsibility to support employees going through the menopause. It is to their benefit to do so and the benefit of the wider workforce. Every employer should take note of this hearing. I'm pleased we can support Ms Rooney, talking about the woman bringing the case, which she has been fighting for several years now.

We will soon be launching new guidance for employers so they do have the resources to ensure they are looking after their staff who are going through the menopause. Keep your messages coming in. There are so many we can barely keep up and I will try to come back to them. The idea of menopause as a disability has certainly got you talking. We're talking of holding individuals to account. What about changing your own behaviour? You may recall the sight of the Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg boarding a sailboat and making her way across the Atlantic,

arriving in New York after two weeks at sea instead of getting on an aeroplane. Her eco travel options may have inspired you. For one young athlete, in fact, the current under 17s UK champion in the 3000 metres, it seems to have done, but who knows what the inspiration was. I can ask her myself. Inez Fitzgerald has decided not to attend any competition where she would need to fly. And she's just been awarded Young Athlete of the Year in the new BBC Green Sports Awards. Inez, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Congratulations on this award. You did not need to travel, I don't believe, to receive it.

It's something that you've been recognised for, but it's a choice right now for you that's making your life a bit harder, isn't it? Yes. No, thank you so so much it's been a real honor to receive this award and um i definitely have positive feelings for the future um and i just want to use this platform that the award will give me to broaden my audience and broaden the horizons of who i'm speaking to um to try and raise awareness about this climate emergency even more than i already have um so you're you under-17s UK champion in the 3,000 metres and you're carrying on with, I presume, competing. Are there things that you're going to miss out on

by not being able to fly or travel in the way that your other competitors are? Yeah, it's quite tough. So the Europeans was in Jerusalem last year and then this summer just gone. I didn't go to either of those and then the World Cross-Country Championships, which was in Jerusalem last year and then this summer just gone. I didn't go to either of those. And then the World Cross Country Championships, which was in Australia. So I've already sacrificed a few events, but I'm hopeful that in the future, I won't necessarily need to sacrifice these international competitions

and we can find other ways to travel that are sustainable and enable sport to run just how it is, but in a more green way. What's your inspiration? Why are you committed to this in this way? I think as young people, we have such strong voices and it's on us to make a difference and to get people talking. I think part of me was like, well, I could just do these events and I can always talk about the climate later. But I was like, no, I'm a young person person I've got this platform I need to use it now

um and speak out as much as I can really you wrote to British Athletics didn't you about your decision that letters online people can read it in full but what were you saying and what was the response yeah I mean I was just trying to say highlight the fact that like the future is not is not positive at the moment if we continue the way we are. And it's terrifying what's happening. And I don't like to make decisions which cause other people suffering. Why should other people be having to suffer because I'm going on a plane to a sporting event to benefit myself? I want to help others.

And I feel like that was right going to the world cross country championships in Australia so yeah I was trying to highlight that really um as in because you didn't go yes yeah yeah I didn't go and you recently were competing where you I think I believe you took a much longer way to get there than those you were competing against and what was the impact tell us about that What was the impact on your performance? Yeah, so I went to the European Cross-Country Championships in Turin in Italy, and I went on the train with my dad.

And it was a rough journey because I think it's all a learning experience and I hadn't really travelled like that before at all internationally. So getting the train was pretty... I should have left more time for all the travel, but it was good fun, and I don't think travelling to any international competition by train puts you at any disadvantage compared to flying.

If anything, it's going to leave you more fresh because you'll have more time to do the travel rather than just flying all in one day. um do you think it impacted your performance though you said you should have left more time you know you've taken learnings from trying to travel in this way yeah no definitely that european um cross country championships i wasn't at my at my best i think i was quite tired after the travel but that's because we all tried we tried to cram it in and we didn't leave enough time but that's something that we can improve on next term and I'm sure I'll make sure I'm at my best next time is it is it hard not being able to go to things you know as someone who's training and

and wants to compete and that's a big part of of being an athlete yeah I think making these tough decisions is a lot harder than people think um I'm battling in my brain with two parts of myself, like, oh, you need to go, this is going to be a great experience, and then, no, think about the effects on other people. So, yeah, I think it's really difficult to make these decisions, and then even harder when you're looking, if you watch the events live or you look back at the footage of the events, you're like, oh, my God, I could have been there.

But it doesn't have to... You don't have to think of it in a negative light and i try and like go over the positives of all these things is it awkward with other competitors because they have flown there and then you see them i guess it is slightly awkward but they're all really supportive whenever i speak to people they're like I respect that decision like you like I understand why you've done it and I think that just like makes me feel like I've made the right choice although I've maybe gone about it a different way I've done what's right would you like other high profile and and increasingly you know the bigger names to do this yeah I just like more people to talk about it it's about getting other people educated so that they can make like informed choices for themselves i think if they don't have the if not everybody

has the facts then they can't make choices which are necessarily the best i think it's about getting people within the athletics community to be like educated about their impact so they can make informed choices which are better for everyone and benefit everyone in the future. It's definitely a discussion I'm sure a live discussion with with more airtime on it. Ines Fitzgerald thank you very much for talking to us. Thank you thank you so much. All the best there. Well let's turn our attention now to Wales specifically Welsh politics because earlier this year we reported on the publication of a damning report into the toxic culture of bullying, misogyny, harassment in the Welsh Nationalist Party, Plaid Cymru. That report was written by one of my next guests, Nerys Evans.

The party's leader, then leader, Adam Price, resigned shortly after that was published. And the 83 recommendations she made have been accepted in fuller and in the process of being implemented. However, a story this weekend broken by my colleagues at BBC Wales means we're bringing you an update. The political correspondent Tulare Glyn Jones is here to tell us about a whistleblower who's made allegations of a serious nature about a Plaid Cymru member of the Welsh Parliament and has been harassed. Tulare, who is the member of Welsh Parliament and who is the whistleblower and what's happened to them? Yes, so this is a story about a member of staff for a Plaid Cymru MS who's given information in a case about another Plaid Cymru MS, Rhys Abowen. If we go back just to give people the background to this, it all started in november

last year when reports started emerging of discontent among plight company staff and activists in the media specifically about the way complaints were dealt with a number of staff members i spoke to at the time said they didn't want to speak out about serious issues because they didn't have faith it would be taken seriously by senior staff and politicians in the party and they didn't want to discredit the party one I think quite poignantly said to me that many plied activists, staff and politicians feel lucky to be part of this historical lineage that stretches back very far and don't want to be responsible for damaging a party that's played such a key role in shaping modern Wales. Anyway, the party at the time appointed an HR firm to investigate a claim

of sexual assault against a senior member of staff and a panel of MSs to listen in confidence. I'm so sorry to interrupt. MSs for our listeners, you're talking about? Members of the Senedd. Yes. A panel of members of the Senedd. So politicians were appointed to listen in confidence to staff concerns. After that, the chief executive, Carl Harris, left his job in December. And Nerys Evans, who you're about to speak to, a former member of the Assembly, as it was known then, it's now known as the Senedd, was appointed to conduct a thorough review of the culture and processes at Plaid Cymru. That was published in the spring and she did not pull her punches. As you said, she found a toxic culture of bullying,

harassment and misogyny in the party, which had got worse in recent years. And the report was so damaging that in the end, the party's leader, Adam Price, resigned over it. You mentioned it earlier, there's this ongoing investigation now into a member of the Senedd about a serious allegation came to light around the same time as those issues over culture were raised last year. We don't know the nature of the allegation against Theresa Bowen because the Standards Commissioner won't confirm that he's even looking into anything.

But BBC Wales understands that it's a serious allegation of misconduct. Theresa Bowen is currently suspended from the applied group in the Senedd, which means he's sitting as an independent. But that report still hasn't been published almost a year later. And what's been said this weekend in terms of the whistleblowers who's given evidence? They've talked about being harassed by a family member of this politician.

Yeah, so this is a story broken by my colleagues, Elio Gouad and Joe Langstaff yesterday on BBC Politics Wales, which you can watch back on iPlayer. But Math William is a former member of staff to Applied MS. He worked for the party for nine years, and he's one of those people who raised their concerns about culture internally, then anonymously in the media. And he gave information to the Standards Commissioner, who is the person appointed by the Senate

to uphold standards about the investigation into Theresa Bowen. This weekend, Math has gone public because he's faced months of anonymous harassment, including a dossier sent to journalists claiming that he had a political vendetta against Adam Price and his allies. It turns out that the man responsible for at least some of that harassment is a man called David Evans, who is the uncle of Theresa Bowen. Although there is absolutely no suggestion that Mr Bowen knew what was going on, he said that he's not close with his uncle and David Evans denies that what he's done is harassing Math William.

But this is what Math William told Politics Wales about the impact it's had on him. The first thing that happened was that a social media account y cyd-destun y mae wedi ei gael arno. Y peth cyntaf a ddigwyddodd oedd bod cyfrif arweinyddiaeth cymdeithasol wedi'i sefydlu'n anonimol, a ddiffynu fy hun a'i ddiffynu. Ar ôl hynny, dechreuais cyflawni e-bostau, eto yn anonimol, yn dweud pethau'n wir a' a ddifrifol. Roedd ddwy wefan ar gael i ddiffygio arnaf. Cefais ymweld â'r cyswllt ar waith, a chyfieithiau ar waith. Ac mae hyn wedi bod yn digwydd ers 10 mis.

Roeddwn i'n teimlo'n ddiogel yn fy ngwlad fy hun. Doeddwn i ddim yn gallu gofio. Roedd gen i ddylwadau. Os oeddwn i'n clywed sŵn yn y nos, roeddwn i'n meddwl bod rhywun yn dod i fynd i fynd. Roedd yn brofiad anodd. nightmares. If I heard a noise in the night, you know, I thought someone was coming to get me. It was an awful experience. It's a very visceral description there. The response to this has been what to Larry? Well, Math Williams has been very critical of the way the situation has been dealt with and says

nobody supported him and nobody took responsibility for what was happening. Although the police did eventually step in, warned David Evans, and the harassment has since stopped. Plaid Cymru said they condemn harassment and support was offered to staff. A spokesman on behalf of the Standards Commissioner said they do offer support to claimants and witnesses. But Math William isn't a witness in this investigation. But BBCales understands that mr william gave information to the commissioner but the commissioner didn't think it was relevant so he's not considered a witness and therefore we can presume from that that he doesn't qualify for that support the senate itself which is separate to the commissioner but obviously

sets the system up um says there are processes in place and they're continually reviewing them and they welcome feedback. But I think this complicated and nuanced story will do very little to give anybody faith in a system which is meant to uphold standards, protect reputations and answer the Welsh public's concerns. Hilary Glyn Jode, thanks for putting us in the picture. It is a nuanced and quite complicated story with a lot of details, so it's good to to get those out but Nerys Evans listening to that the former Welsh politician and author of that

original report looking into Plaid Cymru's culture good morning. Good morning. People who don't know very much about this might be taking a step back thinking what on earth is going on? Well exactly and I think the story breaking over the weekend doesn't reflect well, but it's not uncommon in terms of the issues that we face here in Wales. Deleri there mentioned my report into Plaid Cymru and those recommendations have been implemented. This is a story fundamentally about the Senedd complaint system and the fact that it's inadequate. It doesn't support victims and whistleblowers. blowers and specifically on sexual harassment I know of tens of women who've been sexually harassed over the last 10-20 years by members of the Senedd none that I know have abused the Senedd complaint system to to complain and this is partly one of the reasons why you know the

appalling treatment of the whistleblower is unacceptable should be called out and condemned but it's and it's taken courage for to speak and condemned. But it's, and it's taken courage for it to speak out. And, you know, it's the anonymous attacks on those who complain, those who raise their voice and challenging poor behaviour. And it's all too common.

I've experienced it. Sorry, I know you're about to go on to an experience there. I don't want to interrupt that. But can I just, because you talked about the complaint system in the Welsh Parliament and the Senate not being fit for purpose. We've also heard in Westminster about that not being fit for purpose. There's a new complaint system in the Welsh Parliament and the Senate not being fit for purpose. We've also

heard in Westminster about that not being fit for purpose. There's a new complaint system there that some are saying, you know, is obviously an improvement, but perhaps doesn't go far enough. What do you want to see in place that women would feel confident coming forward to use a complaint system? I mean, how can you stop online attacks, harassment? These are also just part of, you know, sadly, part of modern life, it seems. Yeah, absolutely. And the same for sexual harassment and misconduct. It will continue, but we need robust systems in place where victims have got confidence in that system. At the moment, the Senedd Commission, the body set up to put the rules in place for the standards commissioner here in wales and there is no separate system for sexual harassment and misconduct of this kind it's the same system if a member of the senate uses the wrong envelopes in the office or if they sexually harass somebody or has a campaign of intimidation against somebody now westminster have introduced

new rules where there's an independent system. It's separate to the normal code of conduct and the procedures there with experts in place. At the moment, we have one man, very high integrity here in Wales, the Standards Commissioner, determining if you've been sexually harassed. And I don't think it's good enough. There's no anybody in the room with experience of expertise of sexual harassment and the nuances with that. Especially, you know, we know it happens in every workplace. Most workplaces we've seen it, you know,

police and the fire and other organisations. But the dynamics in terms of politics is different. And coupled then with inadequate systems here in Wales, it makes this even more difficult for women and young men to speak out. And that's why we haven't seen them. It was the complaint system.

It doesn't mean this behaviour has stopped. It means it goes unchallenged and it's even worse here in Wales because we don't have those systems in place. Well, I'm sure we will talk again. Nerys Evans, thank you for your time. The author of that report that had originally looked into Plaid Cymru,

but we're talking across the board about the complaint system that's available to those and especially us being Women's Hour, the women who come forward to complain what needs to be changed about that system in Wales and in the Welsh Parliament, in the Senedd there. Thank you to you. Many

messages still coming in. Just to give you a flavour of some of those still coming in, thank you for that about menopause becoming a disability with a particular court case going ahead today. I realise that the menopause can be a struggle with some women, but as one of your contributors said, it's only a phase. To call it a disability is frankly ludicrous. What next? Would we call puberty a disability?

Another one, has the work ethic disappeared from this country? I would just say on the puberty point, obviously you're not holding down a job in quite the same way with the same responsibilities usually. What about we consider capitalism and toxic productivity as a disability and menopause as a natural right of passage that needs space and attention?

Many messages I have to say frustrated, but also some of those talking about the system that we live within. And so it continues, as I say, so many coming in. Thank you. If I can, I'll come back. But let's talk about systems.

Let's talk about somebody looking at a system and looking outside a system. Elena Kostyuchenko has been described as one of Russia's most fearless independent journalists. After the invasion of Ukraine by Russia on the 24th of February 2022, Elena felt compelled to cross to Ukraine, cross over there to report on what was happening in the country. The newspaper she'd worked for for 17 years, Novaya Gazeta, was shut down just months later, partly in response to her reporting.

This meant returning home to Russia would be dangerous and as it turned out, impossible. But Elena was also not able to stay in Ukraine, something we will get to as well as an alleged poisoning. Her latest book, I Love Russia, a mix of personal essays and reporting, gives a rare insight into her homeland, bringing voices from the country that we don't hear. Elena, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much. Thank you. thank you very happy to be here well it's it's very important to hear your voice but it is your voice that has got you in into some of the trouble that you find yourself in at the moment first of all how are you today because it's been quite a journey yeah it's true i'm fine um like i still believe I need some time to like establish myself, but I'm doing fine. Thank you.

And where are you at the moment? Are you able to say where you're able to live? Not really. I don't have any base. I'm traveling a lot, as police asked me. I'm in Europe now. You're in Europe. And when you went to Ukraine, you felt compelled to go. Tell us about that. And what was it like reporting on what was going on in Ukraine as a Russian? Actually, precisely because I was Russian, I got so much help from Ukrainians because they saw me as a possibility to address Russians, to explain what's happening with them.

So I got lots of help and some Ukrainians risked their lives to deliver me, for example, into the occupied zone around Kherson. All my reporting was possible only because this helped. And I was lucky to investigate some of war crimes as a torturing and kidnapping Ukrainians as shooting on the car with Red Cross, the pre-woman were killed, they were teachers of the orphanage. And, of course, I saw a lot of people who'd been killed by Russian shellings, including children. Yes, which we mustn't forget. And that's why, you know, in part, I know why you went, because you wanted to make sure that people knew. And you felt it was important for Russians to know what was going on? Of course. I mean, Russians should know what our country is doing by their names, by our

names. And like our government, our politicians do everything to not to let people know what's happening. In Russia right now, it's forbidden even to call this war a war. They changed the criminal legislation, so spreading any information which is controversial, the information from our Minister of Defense, is a crime, up to 15 years in prison. And since this war had started,

20,000 Russians were detained and prosecuted for not just anti-war protests, but just for sharing the information about this war. But people want to know the truth. And they are my readers and I work for them. I mentioned, and I was asking to establish for our listeners, I don't want to know exactly where you are. And I recognize the problem with that, but I was trying to establish where you are

because you're not able to be in Russia, and you're also, you weren't able to stay in Ukraine. Is that right? Well, I wasn't. I have security issues in Ukraine too. Yes. After I covered a few cities including occupied Kherson, I was about to travel to Mariupol and just one day before my travel my colleague contacted me

and told me that her sources informed her that Russian checkpoints know that I'm going this road and they're waiting for me there not to arrest not to detain but to kill me and after that i got this information confirmed from my sources from ukrainian military intelligence service and from another people so it was already fifth weeks that I was working in Ukraine and I was completely exhausted and my newspaper was shut down. And then this, and it's how I decided that I should leave Ukraine. I mean, on a personal level, that's very, very scary, I imagine, and very difficult.

And then at the same time, you'd worked for your newspaper for a long time and that was also shut down. It must have been very hard for you and your colleague yeah i mean it was obvious that it will be shut down because like since the full-scale invasion uh like all russian independent media were shut down or uh silenced either way or got exiled or somehow like that. And I didn't expect how painful it would be for me because Nowhere Gazette for me was not just a place of work but also family and my colleagues are the best people I ever met.

And now, despite we don't have media license anymore, despite of our website is being blocked, some of the journalists of Novaya are staying in Russia and keep their reporting. And one of them is my younger sister. She's an investigative reporter on Novaya Gazeta as well. And I'm extremely proud of her and I'm extremely scared for her. Because you still have family in Russia, don't you? Yeah, like my sister and my mother, they're both in Russia.

They're both still there. And you, I mentioned as well, an alleged poisoning. This is another part of the last 12 months of your life, which is, again, you know, you've already described something that would be almost like a film to most people. And then there was this, you falling ill and you didn't know what it was. And perhaps you thought it was COVID and you still don't necessarily know what happened. What can you say about that?

Well, it wasn't my first guess for sure. I was I was traveling to Munich to apply for Ukrainian visa so I could go back to Ukraine and keep working there and just on my way back I felt strange the first what I felt it was just I started sweating and smell of stuff was strange it smelled like rotten fruit and then I got headache and then I got some kind of disorientation. I couldn't really understand how I can go home. And then some other symptoms appeared. And then I approached the doctors. They also was thinking like the same I was thinking,

that it's some kind of post-COVID condition. But then they ran some blood tests and they were bad. And then like after two and a half months of ruling out other diagnosis they say that they have only one version left and this is poisoning so i approached the police and police is investigating it right now uh so we don't have results of the investigation yet. Another investigation is being made by journalists of Bellingcat and Insider, who successfully investigated the poisoning of Navalny, Dmitry Bykov, Karamurza and other Russian dissidents. So we'll see how it goes. The journalist says that I'm not the only one, that there are two other female journalists who face quite similar symptoms and doctors and experts also thinking that it might be poisoning.

I believe my mistake was that somehow after leaving Russia, I stopped following any security protocols here in Europe because I felt like I'm safe. But obviously, we're living in reality, which is changing. And I need to adjust to this reality. And yet, at the same time, you've been able to publish a book, I Love Russia. You know, your voice is loud and strong in there. And I know that's important to you because we're Women's Hour. What would you say? I've only got a couple of minutes left, but what would you say to our listeners about women's lives in Russia

and how you feel as a Russian woman? Well, it's tough. I mean, I have like a chapter in my book, which is called actually How to be a Woman. You never feel secure. You feel vulnerable. You always feel that you have to control the situation. Somehow, though, you have a lot of control on everything. In Russia right now, because we're having fascism there,

and it's stuck with traditional values and all the things, we have... So home violence is decriminalized in Russia. It's not a crime. Most of the people, like 90% of the women who are in the prison for murder, they actually were trying to protect themselves. And it's a reality we live.

But another thing that we don't really speak out loud about our experience, the story I write in this book about how I was almost raped while my assignment trip, it's the story I'm telling like first time in my life because even being a reporter in such a wonderful place as Novaya Gazeta, as a woman, you need to compete for the assignments with men and you need to be so much better than them to get these assignments and you definitely don't need to cause any troubles to stay in this

competition in this competition so after i was almost raped i never told my editor I never told I told nobody and now uh when like all my life crashed down I was thinking okay what why I'm so scared why I cannot tell about this and that's why I wrote this chapter yeah it's incredible it's incredibly brave of you and it's incredibly powerfully written and I applaud you for being able to talk about it as well this morning. I wish we had a bit longer, but Elena Kostyuchenko, I'm so sorry, I'm going to have to leave it there, but thank you so much for your voice this morning and for your voices and company. We'll be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Have you ever wondered who you really are?

It clicked in my mind suddenly. I was like, why have I never done this? I'm Jenny Kleeman, a writer and journalist. In my new series, The Gift, from BBC Radio 4, I've been uncovering extraordinary truths that emerge when people take at-home DNA tests. He said, what do you know? You don't even know that your father's black. So I'm like, Jeff, we got him. And he's like, what are you talking about? And I go, we got him.

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