Woman's Hour - Ruth Jones, Women and renting, Couples who disagree about having children

Episode Date: May 28, 2024

Ruth Jones is live in the Woman’s Hour studio to talk about playing the Mother Superior in a West End production of Sister Act. She discusses getting out of her comfort zone by appearing on stage for the first time since 2018 and working on her fourth novel. Plus what can fans of Gavin and Stacey expect from the Christmas special?What happens in relationships when one person wants a family and the other definitely doesn’t? Is missing out on the chance to have children a deal-breaker? Or do some couples decide to stay together, with one person choosing the relationship over a baby? As BBC Radio 4 drama The Archers explores the dynamics between a couple in this situation, Nuala McGovern hears from Joanna Van Kampen who plays Fallon Rogers in The Archers and relationship therapist Cate Campbell.With the cost of renting and living on the rise, housing insecurity is an increasingly harsh reality for many. A survey by Shelter and YouGov found that 54% of women feel that being a renter has held them back. Three young women—Aimee, Rhiannon, and Rebecca—talk about the significant challenges they’ve faced in the rental market, and how this has affected their lives, plans, and sense of stability. Nuala is also joined by Jenny Lamb from Shelter to talk about how to best negotiate renting.Marina Gibson, a leading female angler who runs the Northern Fishing School in North Yorkshire, has called on the Flyfishers’ Club in London to finally open its doors to women. The club, which was established in 1884 and counts the King as a patron, describes itself as a club for gentleman interested in the art of flyfishing. Marina explains why she wants women to be able to join, and how her love of fishing led to a career change. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Olivia Skinner

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. I hope you had a good, long and relaxing weekend. Well, I usually live like a nun on work days, but last night I stayed up late to go and see Ruth Jones playing the Mother Superior in Sister Act and what a party it was. Ruth is in the studio with me. We're going to speak to her in just a moment. Also, the Conservatives' promise to abolish no-fault evictions before the election will now not happen. The Renters' Reform Bill, as it was called, which would ban landlords from

evicting tenants without a reason, will not become law as Parliament has been dissolved before, of course, that election in a number of weeks' time. Today you're going to hear from three young women and they'll talk about how high rent and difficult landlords have affected their life plans and also their sense of stability. But what rights does a renter have? We're going to get into it. And one that some of you may have experienced, maybe you want to share your story with us this morning, it's this. How do couples negotiate when they don't agree about having children? If you're a fan of The Archers, you will have heard a plot line on just this

between Fallon and Harrison. Joanna Van Kampen, who plays Fallon, and relationship therapist Kate Campbell are going to talk us through it. But maybe you want to share your experience and what and Harrison. Joanna Van Kampen, who plays Fallon, and relationship therapist Kate Campbell are going to talk us through it. But maybe you want to share your experience and what you've been through as well.

If you do, the number to text the programme is 84844. We're on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or if you'd like to send us a WhatsApp message or a WhatsApp voice note,

that number, 03 700 100 444. Again, to text 84844. Plus, we'll hear from the woman trying to gain admittance for women anglers at a men-only fly fishing club. That is all coming up. Maybe you're a fisher, man or woman.

That's also another part of the discussion. 84844. But let us begin. I mean, where to begin with this woman? There's so many areas. But we do know that fans of Gavin and Stacey were just overjoyed when it was announced earlier this month that that much-loved comedy

will return for a Christmas special this year. But it was bittersweet news because it was also announced that episode will be its last. The series is co-written by the actor Ruth Jones with fellow actor and comedian James Corden. As I mentioned, Ruth is making her West End debut as Mother Superior in Sister Act the Musical.

She's here in studio. A very big Woman's Hour welcome to you, Ruth. Oh, thank you very much. It's so lovely to be here in this splendid studio. Isn't it lovely just to give our listeners an idea it's kind of all bathed in pink lights

with a grand piano in the corner. It's the nicest. I feel we should do a radio play or something. Well, do you know what? We've just the woman waiting in the green room. Joanna Van Kampen coming up

and we'll get to the archers before too long. Let us talk about last night and I suppose every night for you for quite a while that is your role as Mother Superior

in Sister Act the Musical it's been extended until early August I hear and I was wondering do you ever get to walk among the audience do you know what

a party is going on down there? Well, it's quite funny because there is, I mean, for people who don't know the story of the show, Mother Superior is the head of this convent which is connected with a church and it's very run down. The whole place is falling apart and they need somebody to come to help them. And who should

come along but Dolores, who Dolores Van Cartier, who is a singer hiding from her gangster boyfriend in the convent. And what ends up happening is that she gets involved with the singing nuns who at the at the start of the show sing terribly badly. But she manages to find their voices and they end up being this amazing choir. But Mother Superior doesn't like change. She doesn't like what Dolores is doing to her beloved convent. And so it's a clash of two personalities. But at the beginning of Act Two, by this point, the nuns have found their voice and they're really into their singing

and what we do is have a little bit of interaction with the audience where some of the nuns go out and hand out leaflets inviting people to come to the Mass because it's quite a party. So I'm always in the wings at that point waiting to start Act Two and all I can hear are these cheers, these massive cheers.

And I don't know what those nuns are doing out there. I don't think I'll ever find out. Well, I can tell you because I was there last night and it is like they're sending out flyers to a party and everyone's invited. But even beforehand, there's a real frisson of excitement. People were singing along with, you know, the tunes that are played

before it even starts. And it's such a diverse audience as well, which really struck me, perhaps compared to other theatre performances that I've been to. So it was loads of fun. But as I was looking at you up there, because I had read my briefing notes beforehand, this is your West End debut and your musical theatre debut. Yes. I mean, I have technically, I have been in, I did perform at the National Theatre, which I guess is also West End, back in the 90s. But this is definitely my first foray into musical theatre. I used to do it at school. Guys and Dolls?

Guys and Dolls. Rob Brydon and I were in several musicals together. I just want to know, like, what that teacher had to put up with. I know. I know. God knows. God bless him. He must have, yeah, must have been quite a challenge having me and Rob in the same show. But, yeah, so I used to do them in school and I loved them and did them at university.

I've always loved watching musicals, but I never thought I'd actually be in one professionally. Was it out of your comfort zone? Very much so. I mean, to be honest, I turned it down initially because I just thought, oh, no, that's not me. And when I think about the people who'd played Mother Superior before, so, you know, we've had Sheila Hancock and Maggie Smith. And it's a very specific performance. I mean, Jennifer Saunders obviously played it brilliantly

and she brought her own comedic genius to it. But I just thought, well, everybody's English and quite sort of RP. And I just didn't feel it was me. That's received pronunciation. And so I didn't really automatically think I was ideal casting for it. But they were so open to my interpreting it in my own way. And I said, well, can I do a Welsh? And they said yes, thankfully. But I did find out that there were quite, because the show is set in Philadelphia, I did find out that there was quite a big Welsh emigration to Philadelphia and Pennsylvania back in the 19th century,

I think because of the mining. And so, and apparently a lot of, there are street names that are Welsh there and there's quite a Welsh flavour there. Few. That means that it's OK for me. Did I see that you were wearing socks? You did. I noticed a little flash of red with your feet up on the desk. Yes. So that's. I had good seats.

Mother Superior, I should say my Mother Superior. And we address this in the prologue. She moved to Philadelphia 30 years ago, but she's still got her accent. its end because her beloved convent has been so transformed by the arrival of Dolores because what it's done is it's brought loads of people to the church. They've raised loads of money to restore this beautiful church but it has meant in Mother Superior's world that there are people attending who are not the sort of people she would have imagined would have attended. And so she's in her right old fix and she just is despairing. So I have this lovely song to sing and right at the end, I won't say what happens, I don't want to spoil it, but I end up putting my feet up on the desk in satisfaction and you'll see that I am wearing a pair of Welsh flag socks. Indeed you are. Which often gets a cheer from the Welsh contingent in the audience.

There's always a Welsh contingent, no more than the Irish contingent. But, you know, talk about stepping out of your comfort zone in musical theatre. What about duetting with Beverly Knight? Oh, gosh. I mean, Beverly Knight's voice is, I say this to people all the time, it is like something from another world. It is absolutely, it's stunning. I can't find adjectives to describe her voice because the tone and the changes that she manages to achieve and the strength of her voice. And it's consistent night after night after night.

And she's so professional, but she's also so lovely and so welcoming and inclusive of everybody. There's no kind of stariness about it, and yet she is a star. So there's one bit where I sing kind of at the end, I sing a few lines with her, and I am literally, if you could go inside my head, I'm standing there trying my best to sing. And she's looking at me with this love and kindness, like almost like, come on, Ruth, you can do it.

And I'm just there thinking, I'm singing on stage with Beverly Knight. Well, I'm sitting in the seat looking at you on stage with Beverly Knight and I'm like, yes, you can hold your own. That was wonderful. I thought it was excellent. Thank you. Because just knowing that I'm coming to speak to you as well, I was like, and out of the comfort zone,

I was like, you go for it. They say do something right that scares you daily. But let us talk about somebody else who scared you. You mentioned Maggie Smith there. I heard you used to have, you had a nightmare about it? Oh scared you. You mentioned Maggie Smith there. I heard you used to have, you had a nightmare about her? Oh, yes. Sorry, Maggie, if you're listening. But when I, so when I first started rehearsing,

because I took part in the tour, actually, because there's a touring production of Sister Act going on right now at a theatre near you. And I did Two Weeks in Dublin, which was my real debut on the stage, you know, that moment where I had to stand on stage in front of an audience. And I was just, I was anxious about it. And I had a dream one night that Maggie Smith said to me,

oh, my dear, I hear you're playing her Welsh. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, that, no that that will not do. So, yeah, I don't know. Who knows? Maybe she thinks it's a great idea. But in my dream, she didn't. I'm sure she does. Well, I loved it. I have to say it just such a feel good. And I just found there was so much laughter all around me and a lot of even chair dancing as well throughout so it's a really good time It is, it's a great show and I think it's so uplifting

some people come and they dress up as nuns which is fantastic but what I think is wonderful about it is that it is so joyous and the message of that of the show really is spread the love and just and that in this day and age, I mean, without wanting to get too serious about it, but with everything that's going on at the moment, I think musical theatre offers people an escape, you know, a live experience because it's not quite the same as watching your favourite film at home with a box of chocolates to sort of comfort yourself. You're there and you're with

other people and you're joining in and you know people leave that theatre and they are smiling and they are uplifting. They're on a high. So come and see it. It's on till the 31st of August. Exactly. Well I did and I loved it but But I have a lot to talk

to you about. I can see the clock ticking. You talk about not sitting, watching a film that is more physical with Sister Act. That is true. But that's not dampened the excitement for the Christmas episode that will be coming up of Gavin and Stacey. I suppose, how

did you come to the decision that it has to end? Well, do you know, it's funny. I'm kind of not really thinking about Gavin and Stacey at the moment, which is quite... Which I can understand. Well, because, and it's funny because at the end of the show, when I go, people often very patiently wait for me to get my slap off. And I meet a lot of people at the stage door

and I sign programmes and things. And so many people are going, oh, thank you so much for doing the Christmas special. And I'm like going, well, I hope it doesn't disappoint you. So it's funny because I'm so thrilled by how much people love it. It's a huge, huge compliment. And it always has been.

And, you know, even we had sort of 10 years away from it and when it came back, people were so excited. And then now we'll have had five years away from it and people still seem to be excited. And it's a real, real compliment. And I just don't know, you know you know how it will be the end um people will i will people still say to me is there going to be any more covenancy stacy i don't know because they've been asking that question for for years and i've said no because until you know for definite that it can happen you you can't say anything.

It was unfortunate that somebody decided to leak it to the press that we were developing this Christmas special. And it was unfortunate because James and I wanted to give everybody a nice surprise. And I think it was really mean that they leaked it. Because also it meant that I had to lie to people. I had to lie to friends and family because they were all saying, oh, is it happening? Is it happening? And the reality is that until you have your cast booked, you have the budget worked out, all of those things, you cannot say categorically, yes, it's going to happen. And it's a lot easier sometimes to be creative without public scrutiny. Absolutely. Absolutely. We knew that we would write, we wanted to write the script without telling anybody, which is what we've done.

We did it with the last special because rather than saying, oh, going to say say going to the BBC and saying would you like another special um because if we then we'd have the pressure to come up with it whereas we just wanted to know if we had something to say so uh it's a real shame that that journalist decided to leak that story but hey ho they did and then I felt so awful I mean I had to go on radio in in Ireland when I was promoting Sister Act and I had to just say, no, no, no, it's a rumour because it still technically was a rumour. But also until you have the goods to be able to deliver

on what the question is they're asking you, I know. So until that night when we took a photo in my dressing room in the Sister Act, in the Dominion Theatre, because James is rehearsing for a play, I'm performing Sisterite in the night so the only time we had was this 20 minute window he had to come to my dressing room after his rehearsals and took a picture of us with the script and that was literally the first day we were actually able

to say yes it's it's happening so we told them when we knew for sure. If you say, and I'm saying it big, if you say goodbye to Nessa, what do you think you will miss most about her? Is there, I don't know, a phrase that she uses or something about her? I think she, there's so much about Nessa

I love as a character. I think mainly that she really does not care to hoot what anybody thinks. Or never did. Never did. Never will um and i love that about her and um there is a little tiny little nod to nessa in sister act actually uh in the in the second act because it just felt right that she should just have a tiny little place there. So she's part, I think she's sort of, she's always there.

I often use little Nessa lines if I want to, you know, divert somebody. Usually if I want to tell somebody to back off. Yeah, I think it's actually, yes, I know exactly. I'm remembering now, which of course the audience was also in on the joke. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been so wonderful having you in. I want to let people know that Sister Acti musical is on at the Dominion Theatre in London until the 31st of August with Ruth Jones playing Mother Superior until August 3rd. Well, I'm on until August 3rd.

But the wonderful Leslie Joseph, who's also in the show, is taking over as Mother Superior after me. Got to speak about the Archers in a moment. You're a fan, right? I'm a massive Archers fan. I love the Archers. But weren't you approached to do something with it? Have I got that wrong? I think I've kind of like over the years, they've kind of mentioned it to me, but I couldn't possibly be in The Archers or write The Archers because to me it exists. Ambridge is a place. Those people are real and I don't want to go and talk to them in a radio studio.

I want to imagine, I've got my own idea of what Ambridge looks like and I don't want that ever to change. Yes, they are real people because Fallon's about to come in right behind you. I'm so excited. I know. I met her earlier and I was like completely fangirling at her. And I'm sure she was with you too. Ruth Jones, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you. Some messages.

You've been getting in touch with me. We're talking, as we will, in a moment about the Archers. You know, can a couple survive if they have a completely different opinion on whether to have children? Here's one. My first husband sprung it on me a year into marriage that he didn't want children, I was devastated as I had an immensely powerful maternal urge, so I left thankfully I met my wonderful second husband

and now have two sons, another my first husband and I broke up because he didn't want children with me then I met my second husband who already having two children with his first wife told me he didn't want any more, but we went ahead and married, I started worrying him for any more, but we went ahead and married. I started worrying him for a baby.

Eventually he gave in and four years later we had another. I've never been allowed to forget this. It is brought up in every argument we have. Julie, thank you so much for getting in touch. 84844 if you would like to get in touch. Right, I am going to play a little of The Archers, just a heads up for those of you that are behind on your listening. What happens this is the question we're asking today

in relationships where one person wants children and the other definitely does not? Would such a divide likely be a deal breaker for the couple going forward? So BBC Radio 4's long-running drama The Archers has been exploring the dynamics between a couple in this situation.

The married couple, Fallon and Harrison, had decided not to have children. Harrison thought he had accepted it. But after an unplanned pregnancy and a miscarriage, Harrison is struggling. I can't believe this isn't affecting you. It is.

Of course it is. Just not in the same way as you. But I can't think of anything else. You know I don't want kids. And you know I do. But you chose to stay with me. You said you'd accepted it. And I thought I had. I really thought I could live with it.

We were pregnant. Fallon, that means something. I was pregnant. Okay. You were pregnant. For a few weeks, without realising. I'm really sorry, Harrison, but it didn't mean anything. You're relieved, aren't you? Relieved? Can you hear yourself? Of course I'm not!

It's clearly breaking your heart and I'd never want that. If it had survived, we'd have got on with it all, wouldn't we? Sorry. We'd have had to make the best of it and you would have got used to the idea, wouldn't you? What else could we have done? I'm sorry, but I don't know where you got that idea from.

Who said I'd have even kept it? Joanna Van Campen as Fallon Rogers and James Cartwright as Harrison Burns in The Archers. I'm joined now by Joanna, who plays Fallon, and also by the relationship therapist, also an Archers fan, Kate Campbell. Welcome to you both. Hi. It's lovely to be here.

So I'm already beginning to get so many messages in on this particular storyline, Joanna. When you and Harrison have been speaking about it, it's really moved into a whole new level of negotiation and really quite moving, I think, when you listen to the archers and the two people that are caught up in this. Oh, that's good. I hope so. I mean, yeah, it's kind of, when you say a whole new level of negotiation, it totally is, isn't it? Because I guess they thought they'd negotiated, but actually it was theoretical, wasn't it? And I think, well, I'm sure Kate will know more about this, but sometimes you might make an agreement with somebody and subconsciously or something.

You kind of think, oh, well, maybe, you know, they'll change their mind or not even, you know, I really mean subconsciously, you know, that things will be different. And now having had the physical experience and really feeling it and for him, it felt like a bit of a miracle. That she had become pregnant. Yeah, it was like a gift from the accident. You know, the accident was really terrible. But out of this trauma came this unexpected gift in his eyes. That she was pregnant, but she did miscarry. She did miscarry. Yeah. And for her, she moves on with her life.

Yeah. But he can't. No. Yeah, that's where it is for them. Yeah. Let me read some more comments and I'm going to come to you, Kate, in just a moment. It says,

the Harrison Fallon Archer storyline mirrors my own recent experience with horrible accuracy. My ex-partner had two kids already. I never wanted any. Then I had an unexpected miscarriage and my amazing partner changed overnight. Oh, wow. Clearly he was grieving and I tried my best to help him to Danny. Then I had an unexpected miscarriage and my amazing partner changed overnight.

Clearly he was grieving and I tried my best to help him, but his grief became anger at me. Just like Harrison, he became unable to see past his own emotions and took them out on me while I was trying to recover myself. It nearly destroyed me. Oh gosh. Wow. That's so interesting. Let me turn to you, Kate. I mean, is this something you often hear? It's really common and it seems to be becoming more common, actually. It's really difficult to even consider having a baby at the moment. It's a hard world. It's very expensive. There are all kinds of reasons.

But I think when people absolutely decide that that is not what they want, there are usually more reasons than just a lifestyle but when people decide i mean it's interesting right you probably don't want to go on a first date and bring up the topic of children but when should that be broached or what do you see about when it is broached or decided upon, because we are evolving creatures. An opinion we have one year, one month, one day may not be the same that we have the following year. That's absolutely true. And what I always encourage couples to do is to discuss this before they get into a committed relationship, before they make that decision to move in together or

marry, because you don't know how you're going to feel. So you have to actually second guess how you might feel and what might happen then. And could the relationship change? Does it have the capacity? Because an awful lot of people can think in different terms these days. Maybe, you know, if it's the guy that wants a baby, maybe he can have one and the relationship can continue. But with someone else, donate sperm or something like that, that happens. People do that. So that's a possibility. Explain that a little bit more to me. Well, sometimes people decide that they can't continue with the relationship as it is without a child if they decide afterwards for some reason that they want one.

And so they find another way to do this. Oh, I understand. So, yeah, so that can happen. Do we know, Joanna, why Fallon in this instance has decided that having a family or having children, should I say, I sometimes don't agree with that word family because you have family without children, has decided that having children isn't for her. Yeah I think she is just fine as she is like there's no trauma around it for her there's no you know you know a childhood which made her think I'm not going to do that you know nothing like that's happened I think that's I really like that

about the writing of this because it's just her choice and she's a creative person. She has all her own projects going on and it's enough for her. In drama, Joanna, we often see female characters that they change their mind once they become pregnant by accident or whatever. But this hasn't happened. No, no, it hasn't. And I really like that too. You know, I think it is such a personal thing, you know, was aware of it.

She felt, you know, sad. She's empathetic, but it's not, it didn't, yeah, it didn't do that for her. And I think that's... Let me read some more of the comments coming in. And Kate, in particular, I'd like to come to you in a moment about whether there's ever a compromise on this. I don't know whether there is. Let me read some that are coming in.

And Manny, of course, wanting to remain anonymous because it's something that's so personal. I left a wonderful relationship because when it came down to it, he couldn't commit to having a family

and I really wanted to. Being 34, I chose to walk away rather than always regret giving up on being a parent or trying to force him into something he did not want. His wishes were as valid as mine

and deserve to be respected. However, it was the hardest decision I've ever had to make. And a year on, it's still something I'm still grieving and working through. Here's another. I've always known I didn't want kids. And as I grew older, I felt more confident in sharing that openly. That wasn't an issue when I was dating in my early 30s. But as I got older, I noticed a change in the response from prospective dates. I was even told my stance on kids made me undesirable this came from a guy who I'd only been seeing for three weeks and who had bantered me incessantly on why I didn't want to have them as I am happy in my life choices I promptly showed him the door um what about that kid I mean that is

heartbreaking particularly from our first person who you love somebody so deeply but you this woman felt she had to make the choice and is there a way to work through it what are the practicalities what do you advise really it's very difficult because it's not something that you can compromise on you can't have half a baby um it's a it's a whole living person so So it is really, really hard for people. And I think a lot of people do compromise or do put their own feelings aside and go with what the other partner wants. And it's still a problem 20, 30 years later. I see lots of couples who are still arguing the same argument. It's just being brought up all the time and it's just going on and on and on and on and on.

And you think, well, maybe you could have found another way at the time. Maybe this relationship didn't have legs as it was. It's interesting. And we did hear that from Julie, I believe it was, in Gosport, who brought up that it comes up with every argument as well. I want to come to you about changing minds in a moment because we spoke with Joanna there that Fallon did not change her mind. I believe the listeners were kind of, some listeners anyway, were happy about that. Here's another one from Rebecca. So many messages. My son had been with his partner for six years and she asked me

if I thought he would ever want a child. For her, she said it was the meaning of her life to have children or to have a family as Rebecca puts it. So I asked my son privately and he was non-committal. With some reluctance,

I then told him how essential it was to his partner to have a baby. Now they have a six-month-old baby girl and they are both very happy. The compromise was that they will not have

more than one. Any thoughts? Oh, I thought that was... It was going to be for Kate, but I see Joanna that you're reacting to it there. Oh, I don't know. I was just, I was reacting at the silence. Kate, go ahead. Oh, no,

sorry. They've worked out what they think will work for them. but for some people the whole idea of a baby at all is just not possible I mean if you've come from maybe a chaotic family background have difficult relationship with your own parents it can be very hard to imagine being a parent yourself and you don't want to cause more more pain in another family and equally if you feel that you are a son or a daughter, primarily, and you can't imagine being a parent, it's not negotiable. It's not possible for some

people. And that thing of changing minds? I think a lot of people go into relationships thinking that they will change their mind, that maybe they think they'll change their own mind, maybe they think their partner's mind will change and quite often I see people in therapy where basically they want me to arbitrate and say oh go on you really do and do people change do no do people change their minds very often not no it is it and if they do it become then the other way it becomes it becomes a problem. You know, you made me have this baby. I didn't want it.

Very briefly, just before I let you go, is there a difference between men and women when it comes to wanting to have children? No. No. Thank you both so much. So interesting. We're 84844 if you want to keep sharing. Kate Campbell, that was with us, and Joanna Van Kampen.

And you can follow this storyline. I have to say, it is heartbreaking listening to to it on Radio 4's The Archers. It's weekdays at 2 p.m. and 7 p.m. But you know that already. And on BBC Sounds. Thank you all so much for speaking with us here on Women's Hour. Right. Let's turn to a recent survey conducted by Shelter and YouGov that found that over half of women privately renting in England feel that being

a renter has held them back in some way. 39% of women spend half or more of their income on rent. This compares with 31% of men. The issue of housing is likely to become a key battle in the upcoming general election. In a moment, we'll hear what the major political parties are saying about it. We'll also speak to Jenny Lam, a policy officer from the housing charity Shelter. But first, let's hear from three young women, Amy, Rhiannon and Rebecca. They spoke to me earlier about the challenges they experienced while renting. They came on Woman's Hour to share their personal stories and shed a light on how renting has affected their lives, their plans and their sense of stability. Let's have a listen. Amy's first. She's renting with her husband.

So how are they finding it? We found it very difficult. We've obviously been through a number of properties. One of the houses that I moved into with my husband before we were married, we lived in for several years. We found that the landlord and the tenant agency weren't very good. We were having many issues with damp and black mould. It made me very sick. And you couldn't get them resolved, no? No, because the letting agency or the

tenanting agency were up in Derby. So we were ringing them and messaging them and emailing them and they just weren't getting a resolution for it. We were having water dripping down the walls just because of how damp the house was that's a pretty miserable way to live no doubt it was it it prompted a requirement to move and we were very lucky with the house that we moved into we moved into a two bedroom semi-detached house the issue we had then was that after covert and everything the rent was kept at rate for a couple of years yeah when we came up to our renewal this year or last year um they wanted an additional week's worth of rent so we were paying 1200 a month yeah they wanted to raise it to 1500 okay so a substantial jump there so you had to move again yes it's lovely uh but we've had to downsize how has that affected

your day-to-day life um well i now pretty much live out of one room so my work and sleep and everything from my bedroom right just because we don't have room in the living room to set up my my computer it's also meant that me and my husband haven't been able to try for a baby. So we have had to put off having a child until we can move again. That's a big life decision, Amy, to be affected. Yes, it's disappointing because obviously I'm getting to the age now where I see children and I very much want to be part of that lifestyle. But because of the situation I'm in, we just don't have the room to be able to have a child. So stay with us, Amy. I want to turn to Rebecca.

Rebecca, you've rented on your own. How affordable have you found it? Not very affordable at all. I would go as far to say if you're a single woman, the market is not for you. Your options are very limited. Sorry to interrupt you there, Rebecca, but why is that as a single woman? Why is that particularly difficult? Most rooms on the market nowadays, anyway, you're looking at at least 800 upwards of just the room. So you're not even guaranteed like your own bathroom with that

whereas if you're with someone you've got more options because there's more money there as a woman it's it's not great if you're on your own and you are now renting with a partner however and has that solved any of the issues yes I mean I'm in a much happier place now because you know the the lady who manages the property is amazing she's brilliant um I've had quite a fair share of horrible and dodgy landlords and letting agents you know I'm not as anxious or stressed anymore because everything's so organized here and it is affordable because it's split between two. And you heard a little of Amy there. Her living situation was having an impact

on life decisions, big life decisions. Do you feel you can do what you need to do or want to do? I would definitely relate in terms of having a baby. When you're, especially for me, when you're hopping from house share to house share and I don't have that family network behind me the thought of having a baby is it's

not feasible like practical what do you think would make you feel secure enough to start a family or think about starting a family probably if I was was in a long house share for a long time. You know, if I was able to make roots, I had a good price point. And that was long term. But, you know, having a baby in a house share is not feasible. You need your own flat or your own house. You know, the foundation for the child.

Rhiannon, let me bring you in. You've been renting on your own. Your experience was different, I child. Rhiannon let me bring you in you've been renting on your own your experience was different I believe can you share your story? I moved into a property in I think the beginning of 2021 and so it was in Covid it was in London when they couldn't really fill flats I was on a three-year contract and the beginning of the contract was great. I'd actually done research to ensure that I had a good landlord. And the first landlord that were at the property were great. And overnight the property, well, for me, overnight the property was sold to a new landlord. And we were just informed by email and that was it.

And we were never allowed contact details of this new landlord, who were a shell corporation from operating out of jersey and they basically did whatever they wanted like illegal and so they would make illegal entries to the property with no notice no information they would just use spare keys they changed our locks and just kind of let us know that there were new keys to pick up they would enter frequently so they would make various excuses and they would um so it's the property managers that were doing this they would make various excuses so i was doing my law degree at the time and if you ever denied it they would tell you they would incorrectly quote the law and tell you that you

weren't legally allowed to deny them access and so I would write back saying actually that's not the law and quote the law correctly and then they would like basically threaten my tenancy I'd always paid my rent on time I was like friends with all my neighbors all the local businesses and so they used various intimidation tactics eventually they did just stop telling us if they were going to come around and would just enter whenever they wanted. And I woke up one day, went to shower, and at around 8.15, I opened my bathroom door in a towel

and there was a man sat on my floor facing my bathroom door. And I just, I didn't even know what to say. I didn't say anything. And he just stood up and acted like he was working on a door. And so I emailed the managing agent immediately. And they said that they were taking it seriously. And I emailed them again two weeks later after hearing nothing. And they said, we've decided it didn't happen because he said it didn't happen.

So I said, well, the other neighbors know that they were at the property because they disturbed them too. But also you have cameras on site so you can see that he was in the property because the claim was that he was just never there maybe a week after this incident an estate agent got in touch and said that i had seven days to agree to pay a rent increase of almost 65 percent or i would be given a section 21 eviction notice. And so I was evicted from the property that I'd been living in for two years. It is shocking. So you were facing this massive 65% rent increase or eviction.

What impact did that have on you afterwards? And it also came after this stressful period that you've described. Yeah, I actually had to defer a few of my law finals. So my entire degree actually was delayed, including my graduation. I didn't get to go to my graduation for a degree that obviously is very hard work. I had to move pretty much in the middle of exams. It was really stressful. I was having panic attacks because I was

so worried about like because of the impact of the man being in my house I don't feel comfortable living alone now I don't think I would live in a one bed without a partner I have like a lot of anxiety now generally around my housing situation I find moving a lot more stressful um and I actually ended up leaving the country and moving abroad not long after that I think two months after that how badly landlords behave it like affects everything because it's your home and that's where you're based, that's your life. And for a lot of us, that's now work and study, like everything happens at home after COVID. Sadly, I feel like I've lost my home and it's really ruined London for me. Very, very stressful. And I'm sorry, Rh Rhiannon that you went through all that but back

to you Amy you spoke about how stressful your rent increase was also that insecurity really that you were facing can you buy is that something that would ever be achievable not currently I don't have a support network of family that have assets to be able to help with um a lot of my money is going towards rent and bills so we don't have a lot of free funds to be able to get savings in place yes i understand that and do you feel we were hearing a little from riannon there do you feel with your mental health that it is that you are well, that you've been able to navigate those choppy waters of renting? I'm well now, but there have been periods where I've had a lot of difficulty with anxiety and stress and illnesses brought on by illness, by the stress and anxiety. I caught shingles nearly a year ago

due to some of the stress issues that I've been having, either with money or with housing. Yeah, I suppose it's kind of at the core of where we are each day. Back to you, Rebecca, you have been renting for years. I was asking that question to Amy of whether she could get on the property ladder. Is that something you think about?

No, I wouldn't say so because, you know, things are skyrocket at the moment and yes i'm i'm with someone right now but the property ladder's miles off a lot of our income goes to rent and we don't really have that much left over after i'm i'm in reading right now and buying a house in reading is just not feasible if If we were to go on the property ladder, it would be elsewhere, for sure. Right. For sure. Because it's just too expensive.

Rhiannon took the step of moving out of the country altogether because she was so impacted by that story. But what do you think, Rhiannon, I mean, what could be done to improve renting for people in London or other places, as we're also hearing around the country? I think there needs to be a regulatory body because there is legislation to protect tenants. I would say the legislation also needs to go further.

But there's nothing right now tenants can do. I feel like as somebody who was educated in the law I could tell these property agents I know you are incorrectly quoting the law to intimidate me so whilst the insight of like new legislation is being spoken about I actually think if there's nobody for renters to go to nobody that regulates. It doesn't matter because landlords have and will or will have been and will exploit the lack of knowledge or the lack of support, the lack of ability for tenants to often go to court and represent themselves. And so there needs to be regulation.

I was speaking to Amy, Rhiannon and Rebecca. Thanks so much for their time and their stories. I want to read you a little of a statement from the National Residential Landlords Association. I was speaking to Amy, Rhiannon and Rebecca. Thanks so much for their time and their stories. I want to read you a little of a statement from the National Residential Landlords Association. It says, The overwhelming majority of landlords are responsible providers of high-quality private rented accommodation who have a positive relationship with their tenants.

The behaviour reported by your case studies is unrepresentative of the majority and unacceptable. Private lettings are highly regulated and no landlord or agents should enter a property without securing prior permission from a tenant. They also went on to say the best way to address all of these issues is for any future government to address the causes of the supply crisis by introducing pro-growth measures which will keep landlords in the market, encourage future investment and empower tenants to vote with their feet.

Let me bring in Jenny Lamb, a policy officer from Shelter, a housing charity. Jenny, good to have you with us. How do you see the rights that renters have when it comes to rent rises like those we were hearing about? Well, with rent rises specifically, renters are really on the back foot. There are certain rules that landlords have to follow if they want to increase the rent, and it does depend where you are within your tenancy agreement. So if you're in a fixed term, the only way that a landlord can legally increase the rent is if the tenant agrees to it, if they sign an

agreement, or if there is a rent review clause in their contract. But if you're on a periodic or a rolling tenancy, the landlord must serve a section 13 notice in order to increase the rent. And they must give at least one month's notice of that rent increase. But one month, it's not a long time. It's not a long time, no. Tenants are always up against it when we're talking rent increases, when we're talking evictions, you get a two month notice of eviction

if they're asking you to leave. And we all know right now that it's just not enough time to find a new home. And with the no fault evictions, as I mentioned a little earlier in the programme, the renter's reform bill hasn't, it's basically stalled in Parliament and Parliament has been dissolved

because of the election campaign. But the election is around the corner and we do expect housing to be a key issue. In response to Amy, Rhiannon and Rebecca's stories, the Conservative said, and I quote, we are committed to creating a fairer market for renters, sticking to our plan to deliver a more secure future for the whole country.

Our plan to deliver the homes people need is working, building one million more homes since 2019 and increasing local housing allowance by £800. Labour said, these women have been held back by Britain's escalating housing crisis that the Tories have failed to get a grip of regardless of whether someone is a homeowner

a leaseholder, a tenant everyone has a basic right to a decent, secure and affordable home listeners can stay across what all political parties are saying about this as the campaigns continue we have it on the BBC website and we'll continue to cover all aspects of the election right here on Women's Hour.

But Jenny, what do you make of what you've heard so far? Well, the government has had five years to fulfil a manifesto promise. And as it stands, they have failed the 11 million private renters who will be headed to the ballot box with this in mind. Renters can't be ignored anymore and lip service is just not going to cut it. And when we talk about house building, one of the main issues, one of the main pressures that is on the private rented sector right now is it's filling the gap that has been left by the absolute lack of social homes. There's been so few social homes built that, you know, that kind of results in the private renter sector kind of stepping into filling that void that's left. Because some of the landlords I know in the private sector

would say, you know, with financial aspects, particularly when it came to mortgage rates, etc., became incredibly expensive to keep their properties going. They felt they needed no fault eviction notices

to be able to sell their properties because they felt as a landlord that they weren't able to make a profit, that basically they were on the back foot what would you say to that i would say that renters uh on average have um a spending as i think you've already said today a lot of renters are spending up to kind of half their income on rent and more than half of renters have no savings so they have nothing that could kind of save them from the need to at short notice find a home. It's you know we are in a cost of living crisis and people do feel that differently but renting is becoming hugely unsustainable for most

people as rents kind of run away. I do have somebody who got in touch they says yeah rooms or flats are impossible to rent in London as a single person I've rented with my best friend for 20 years because it makes it affordable fortunately neither of us wanted to start a family but 60% of our income goes on rent. What should potential tenants look for in a landlord before I let you go Jenny? It's quite hard to find out an awful lot about your landlord before you rent a property but if you live in London for example there is a rogue landlord register that you can check that's publicly accessible and that will show you if your landlord has kind of abided by the rules. But in terms of you know trying to

find out if someone has raised the rent often in terms of finding out what kind of condition the property's in before you move in that's it's really it's really difficult to find out that kind of information. I feel it's still not there really difficult to find out that kind of information feel it's still not there jenny lamb policy officer from shelter thank you so much for joining us now members of the garrett club in london's west end voted earlier this month to allow women to join you might remember the all-male private members club which was founded in 1831 had been under pressure to admit female members now mar Marina Gibson, a leading female angler who runs the Northern Fishing School in North Yorkshire,

has called on the Fly Fishers Club in London, described as a club for gentlemen interested in the art of fly fishing and whose patron is the king. She wants them to finally open their doors to women. Marina joined me shortly before we came on air and I asked her why she wants women to join this club. I think that in this day and age, fishing has become one of the most inclusive sports that

used to be very, very heavily male dominated. And to a certain extent, it still is. But things are changing and things have changed so much over the last 10 years that I understand that there are men-only clubs and women-only clubs. But as fly fishing goes or fishing as a pastime or a sport, I think that times have changed. fishing and some would you know have a career in it and others would just do it for fun to be able to go into the fly fishers club by themselves and sit down read books go through the archives and enjoy everything that's there um that's so historic and so interesting for for us anglers instead of you know having to be invited and you know feel that awkwardness where where you kind of feel like you don't really belong there. So you can only go as a woman if you're invited? As a woman, you can go there if you've been invited

or you've been invited to an event or you've been invited to dinner. So you're only allowed to go there in the evenings, not for lunch. But you mentioned feeling awkward at times there. Is that how you felt? I never felt awkward when I'm there, but it's the awkward feeling that you can't just go by yourself. I understand. You've been in touch with the club?

Yes, yeah, I have. And I have many friends who are in the club as well. And most of them would love to welcome women, which is great to hear. But what has the club responded to you directly? Yeah, so they've actually had votes on whether to accept women. And every single vote has been in favour to stay as a men only club. And I think that they they do, to be fair, have quite a few of these votes over the last um you know sort of 10 years but um i think that it will change one day um and i hope it will change one day and to become a member of the fly fishers club you have to be you have to have two recommendations from people who are

already you know a member so it's not like anyone can join and, you know, you have to be vetted and you have to make, they have to make sure that you're a really passionate angler. And with that comes lots of things. So you love fishing, but you also a conservationist, you know, you get involved in initiatives and campaigns and you support the fishing industry. So, you know, because fishing is inclusive and it's men, women, children, anyone who wants to join is welcome. I think that it would be a great thing for them.

You are nonetheless continuing to expand the field or the river or the stream for women. I understand you gave up a job to set up a fishing school in North Yorkshire. Is that where I'm speaking to you from today? No, I'm actually in Hampshire and I'm just about to welcome 11 women today. But I did give up my job in London and I followed my passion and started up a fishing school. And that was seven years ago. And, you know, fitting is my life. It's 365 days a year. And I love it so much. And it gives me a lot. So, you know, it's, yeah, it's wonderful, really. So what are you going to teach today? I'm intrigued. the river we are on the lake at the moment but um we have something called the mayfly hatch which

uh people call duffers fortnight so the mayfly which are very very big upwing flies they emerge from the water from a nymph and they come up and then they peel away their paste and they become an adult fly and you'll see if you're around hampshire uh wiltshire um you'll see and actually a lot of places in the uk you'll see these huge flies and they'll be going onto the water and laying their eggs and then the cycle starts again but these fish really turn on when this happens and so it's called the mayflower hatch and that's where i am today hopefully we see some mayfly but it is pouring with rain and we've got a lot of beginners so we'll be teaching casting um what you know how to match the hatch which is uh how to choose a fly to replicate the real thing and we'll just be having a lot of fun we'll have a picnic by the

lake and um yeah hopefully we catch some fish i can hear some birds behind you as well. And the flies are the bait that fly fishing uses to lure the fish. And they often imitate or replicate what a little insect you might be using to lure them fish. One quick question for you, just a story I saw in the newspaper today. There is a pilot scheme that has been designed to try and tackle levels of social isolation in children. And it talks about fishing as a possible activity to help kids, I think between nine and 13, deal with their loneliness. At first blush, what do you think of that plan? Absolutely. And, you know, fishing has been prescribed now from doctors to people who they think will benefit from it.

And I think that children get so much out of fishing. You know, there's most people you will talk to will have a fishing story at some point in their life, whether that was course fishing, carp fishing, fly fishing, sea fishing. I was lucky. I started fishing when I was five and I was so lucky that I was introduced to it because actually I came back to it when I was sort of going through ups and downs so I count myself as the lucky one but I hope that by talking about it by showing people what we do as a community that we spread the love of fishing and try and get as many people into it. Marina Gibson talking to me earlier her memoir is called Cast Catch Release and we did contact the

Fly Fishers Club this morning for a statement we have not heard back Alistair Collette the club's president told the Times newspaper that allowing women to become members

was under consideration and that it could be put to a membership vote Tomorrow on Women's Hour Grammy Award winning singer-songwriter Anais Mitchell will be talking to me

about her genre defining musical Hadestown yes I'm out on the town again tonight to see that. And will be performing live in studio. So that's from 10am. One last comment. Thanks for all of you who got in touch.

I'm child-free by choice. And I'm so grateful for this Archer storyline, as I cannot think of a single rom-com film where the couple chose not to have children and, quote, live happily ever after. That's Lisa in Leeds having the last word. I'll talk to you tomorrow on Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again

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