Woman's Hour - Ruth Perry's sister, City Girl in Nature, Caring for a spouse, The politics of Christmas presents

Episode Date: December 9, 2023

An Ofsted inspection "contributed" to the death of head teacher Ruth Perry. That’s the conclusion of senior coroner Heidi Connor. This is the first time Ofsted has been listed as a contributing factor in the death of a head teacher. Ruth Perry had been head of Caversham Primary School in Berkshire for 13 years when she took her own life in January, ahead of an inspection report being made public which had downgraded the school from Outstanding to Inadequate, based on safeguarding concerns. Her death ignited a national debate about the mental health of school leaders and the pressure they are under in terms of inspections. Anita Rani speaks to Ruth Perry’s sister, Professor Julia Waters.   Born and raised in Deptford, south east London, Kwesia didn’t grow up with a lot of nature around her. That’s until she went on a life-changing trip to the Amazon. She’s since created her YouTube channel, City Girl in Nature, to guide other city dwellers into the great outdoors. She speaks to Krupa Padhy about her platform, nature activism work, and winning Best New Voice at the Audio Production Awards for her podcast Get Birding.   Lina Mookerjee had been married to her husband Richard for more than 15 years when he lost both his sight and hearing. Lina is now as much a carer to Richard as she is a wife. Lina and Richard share their story and discuss what they describe as the ‘invisible’ work of carers.   Research suggests that the average Briton spends £300 on Christmas gifts. One woman who is bucking this trend is the writer and journalist Nell Frizzell, who says that her family Christmases have improved since they stopped buying one another gifts. Krupa hears from Nell and Ellie Gibson, comedian and one half of the Scummy Mummies, who is a big fan of gifting every festive season.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. On today's programme, how does a relationship change if you become a carer for your spouse? One couple tell their story. The politics of buying Christmas presents and from Deptford to the Amazon, one young woman tells us how being in nature gave her a second chance at life. But first, an Ofsted inspection contributed to the death of headteacher Ruth Perry. That's the conclusion of senior coroner Heidi Connor,

delivered on Thursday following a five-day inquest in which she heard from family members, school colleagues, the Ofsted inspectors and medical professionals. This is the first time Ofsted has been listed as a contributing factor in the death of a head teacher. Ruth Perry had been head of Caversham Primary School in Berkshire for 13 years when she took her own life in January, ahead of an inspection report being made public which had downgraded the school from outstanding to inadequate based on safeguarding concerns. The school was regraded this summer to good. Her death ignited a national debate about the mental health of school leaders. Ofsted Chief Inspector Amanda Spielman has apologised

for the distress that Mrs Perry undoubtedly experienced as a result of our inspection and said that Ofsted was making several changes to help reduce the pressure felt by school leaders. But in a recent interview here on Woman's Hour, Amanda Spielman said critics had used the death of Ruth Perry as a pivot to try and discredit the work of Ofsted. Well, I spoke to Ruth's sister, Professor Julia Walters, yesterday and began by asking about her reaction to the coroner's verdict that an Ofsted inspection likely contributed to her sister's death. Clearly, there's no outcome from an inquest that's a positive one, if you like. But we were relieved and pleased that the coroner came to the conclusion she came to, the conclusion that everyone who knew Ruth knew already. Ruth wasn't the first headteacher or teacher to take her life after an Ofsted inspection.

But as you said, it is the first time that an Ofsted inspection has actually been included on the coroner's form as linked to Ruth's death. And actually, as far as we're concerned, it was the reason for Ruth's death. So I'm hoping that the fact that that has been publicly and officially legally acknowledged will finally make Ofsted make the changes that are needed to make the inspection system reliable, consistent and safe. I'd like to pick out some other bits of what the coroner concluded and just to get your thoughts. And they said that parts of the inspection lacked fairness, respect and sensitivity, and that it was at times rude and intimidating. I mean, that must have been incredibly difficult to hear. Well, it was difficult to hear, but obviously i had heard that from ruth herself last year um i suppose when i

mean i've read all of the disclosure evidence that was submitted to the coroner in detail so that Having seen that evidence from all parties, it confirmed, but with such brutal realism, what Ruth had already told us. There was always, I suppose, that niggling doubt that maybe it was just Ruth who'd perceived that inspection to be as it was. But her colleagues who were there not only witnessed the terrible impact it had on Ruth, but were also profoundly upset and traumatised by the experience themselves. And to read their testimony, to hear them in court talking about the sustained painful levels of stress that they were all under during that inspection, the unpleasant experience of meetings with the inspectors confirmed kind of what I suspected and knew already, that there was something just profoundly wrong

with the way that inspection was conducted, but actually with a system that allows there to be inspections like that. Well, and the evidence also revealed very little training for inspectors to identify and deal with anxiety and distress in school leaders. But Ofsted say that they're now started to develop training for all the inspectors on recognising and responding to visible signs of anxiety. Is it enough? No, no. I mean, the National Director for Education, Christopher Russell, gave evidence at the inquest, during which he repeatedly claimed that Ofsted had always been very conscious of the stress that inspections cause and had included training for inspectors in its training materials, central to their training materials. The untruth of that was exposed in the inquest the coroner asked Oster to produce these

training materials so I like the coroner have seen both the training materials that were used at the time of the inspection of Capuchin primary this time last year and the training materials that have been used since the beginning of this school year, which allegedly have brought in changes, all they have done is sort of pay lip service to the fact that inspections can be stressful, asking questions like, you know, how could you get this information while minimising stress and anxiety? But there's no rigorous, useful guide either to spotting signs of anxiety or how to respond to it or what options might be open either to the inspectors or to school staff if stress and anxiety are detected. And, yeah, I mean, in Ruth's case, the inspectors themselves identified it.

It's in their evidence. I mean, absolutely horrifying to read some of the accounts that they themselves have of Ruth's response in meetings. They saw that she was distressed. Her colleagues knew she was distressed, but there was nothing, nothing was done to adapt the inspection to that, to accommodate that. Nobody was aware of this mythical creature, as the coroner called it, of the option to pause an inspection, for instance. So, sorry, I mean, a long answer to your question. The training that is in place now, that was in place a year ago,

is woefully inadequate to cope with the stress that Ofsted themselves acknowledge is caused by inspections. And Amanda Spielman's suggestion yesterday, in response to those utterly damning conclusions of the coroner that they're going to do a day's training next week to train their inspectors. I mean, come on. I think anybody can see that's just inadequate. Something far more fundamental is required than that. We will be coming to Ofsted's response to this as well.

But there's something else that I'd like to get your thoughts on that was highlighted by the coroner. And that was the rule of confidentiality that was in place at the time, which meant that Ruth could have talked to other headteacher she could have leaned on, but she wasn't allowed to. what was written in the most stark terms on the draft report. You know, if you share any of the information from this draft report, it will be considered a serious breach of confidentiality and action will be taken. I can't remember the exact words, but, you know, that was the tone. That was the gist. So particularly in a small primary school i mean caption primary is a small primary school the senior leadership team is four people two of those

were the um deputy heads who sort of were part-time so you know in a school it could be just three people who were themselves part of that inspection, who themselves were traumatised by that inspection. The idea that the only people Ruth was allowed to share that outcome with were her senior leadership team, the chair of governors and the local authority. I'm sure anyone can see, we've talked a lot, I've been talking a lot about the power imbalance within the Ofsted system, the education system, but clearly here, Ruth, the only people Ruth was allowed to discuss the inspection result with were her employers or the staff whom she led and who were looking to her for leadership and guidance, who themselves were traumatised by that inspection.

So actually the people it would have been helpful for her to talk to, absolutely her wonderful, wonderful colleagues, Readinghead teachers, whom I've come to know this this last year didn't know before she wasn't able to discuss it with them the people who more than anyone really could understand what it felt like and might have been able to offer her both emotional and practical they've changed that they've changed that rule now are you satisfied satisfied? They've kind of changed it. As the coroner said, there are still elements of that. They have loosened the confidentiality requirement,

but they have still not made explicit, for instance, that a headteacher can share that outcome with medical professionals. I mean, looking through the evidence of Ruth reaching out to her GP, to mental health services, and even then she felt unable to name the school to talk about what that judgment was, even when seeking medical help. So the coroner has pointed out that, yes, there have been improvements. Ofsted have not just clarified matters, which is what they were trying to argue, they have changed the policy, having, thank goodness, recognised that that confidentiality requirement was inhumane. But there are still elements of clarification that are needed to lift that particular burden from headteachers.

Now, the coroner also pointed to the current Ofsted system, which allows for the single word judgment of inadequate to be applied equally to a school rated otherwise good, but with issues which could be remedied by the time the report was published as to a school which is dreadful in all respects. Do you think single phrase judgments will change? I sincerely hope so. It has been one of, if not the sticking point, I've had many meetings now, long meetings with the Secretary of State and the Department for Education. And we've had some tense moments when we're both kind of saying that's our red line.

So it's, you know, government policy that this is how they judge not just schools, but care homes, hospitals, GP practices and so on. And they're not going to budge. And I, on the other hand, and it seems the most of the teaching profession arguing that without removing those single word judgments, many of the other tweaks that have been offered so far will be ineffective. That's the one thing that would be easy to change and would make the most difference in one fell swoop. Get rid of the single word judgment and then many of the other issues around that sort of public shaming, the humiliation. Because that one word, inadequate, that loomed large, didn't it for Ruth?

Oh God, yeah. Oh God. I mean, it's not just that it's one word, it's that word. That word. I mean, I work in education myself, higher education. We have accountability systems and reviews and so on as well. But the idea that in education, it is ever acceptable to use that word inadequate to sum something up. If I wrote on an undergraduate essay, at the end of it, inadequate, however shoddy I might personally think their work was, I would get shot down, you know, that would not be allowed. And rightly so. How can you sum up, you know, one undergraduate essay, one student essay with the word inadequate, let alone a whole school?

And as Ruth felt, her whole career, her vocation, sort of destroyed with one word and with that word. I am going to just read out the Ofsted statement from the Chief Inspector, Amanda Spielman. She said, Ruth Perry's death was a tragedy that deeply affected many people. My thoughts remain with her family, the wider Caversham school community

and everyone else who knew and loved her. On behalf of Ofsted, I would like to say sorry to them for the distress that Mrs. Perry undoubtedly experienced as a result of our inspection. After Mrs. Perry's death, we made changes to the way we work to help reduce the pressure felt by school leaders. We will do more. The coroner highlighted a number of areas of concern. We will work hard to address each of these as soon as we can.

And we're starting that work straight away. The inquest heard about the pressures Ruth felt and that she articulated in the time after the inspection and before her death, not only about how to face her staff and the parents after the downgrading, but also worrying about wider repercussions that that word, the inadequate judgment would have had, For example, local house prices potentially falling in the area. Just a huge weight of responsibility. The last time you saw her alive was on Christmas Day. How did she seem to you then? She was haunted.

I mean, she really was from the very start of that inspection until her death. She was complete. She could think of nothing else. So she was trying very hard to put on a brave face, but it was very unconvincing. You know, her children were there. My children were there my children were there we wanted to have a fun family Christmas and we did our best but it yeah Ruth's heart wasn't in it and it was very difficult for all of us I think we need to talk we sorry sorry I know it's difficult I just would like to talk about the woman behind the headlines what was she like she was she was lovely she was lovely she was very human unpretentious genuine person she had no front um she went into education because she liked to do good because she liked to nurture children.

I mean, she had a very holistic attitude to children's education, not just the curriculum and knowledge, but actually thinking about their broader development and creativity and extracurricular activities. She was, yeah, she was, she was a friend to so many people. I mean, I think it's, being a headteacher is a very, very hard, isolated and isolating job and um i think there were probably times when ruth just wanted to be a mum like everybody else and just you know live in the community like everybody else um but being a head teacher always comes to that sort of level of responsibility and and local celebrity even. Everybody knew her. But I think everybody knew her as a genuinely kind, well-meaning, hardworking, successful person.

And this is what's just so shocking about what happened to Ruth, that an inspection of a school that everybody locally knows is an absolutely excellent school that an inspection of that school could reduce my happy healthy successful sister to touch depth of despair she could see no way out um it's just a terrible indictment of a system that's meant to raise standards improve lives and she was married and had two daughters and yeah you've taken on a huge level of responsibility as well as her sister um no doubt the death was devastating for the whole family, but you're dealing with all of this and your own grief.

Yeah, it's not easy. I do think sometimes the fact that I have, yeah, well, it's not that i've decided to to do this to sort of campaign for a want of a better word i don't feel like i have any choice it's something i have to do something was so terribly clarity about what happened and my analysis of what is so wrong with the system and responses to my calls for change, that doesn't mean that that doesn't mean that it's not hard it doesn't mean that i'm not still grieving and um on some levels

i there's a lot of grief that still needs to come out that a lot of my grief is still on hold because of of doing this it's yeah it's added an extra burden, an extra layer of complication. But it has to be done. Is there anything you'd like to say about Amanda Spielman's comments on this programme two weeks ago? I can't say I was surprised. Emma Spielman hasn't spoken often publicly, but every time she has,

she has displayed a staggering lack of emotional intelligence. Can I just say what she said to Emma? She said there was a very sad case in the spring, which has been used as a pivot to try and discredit what we do. The quality of what we do underneath has been solid for years. We have really strong feedback on our inspection framework. I suspect they're getting some strong feedback now. Yes, I heard that. I heard it live. As I was just saying Hour was the first time that I have actually

screamed. I have a counsellor, I have a grief counsellor who said, if you need to scream. And I screamed and I screamed loud and long. And it wasn't, you know, expletive laden outburst at the crass insensitivity of what she did. It felt visceral. It felt painful. I really hope my parents weren't listening. They listened to Radio 4. I really hope they weren't listening then. It was such a kick in the guts and just a few days before the inquest starts and here she is again in public media casting aspersions on me on those like me who can see there's something wrong with the inspection system suggesting that Rees-Steff's being used as a pivot to discredit Ofsted. I mean, it's outrageous. Ofsted are doing a very good job at discrediting themselves.

They don't need us to come along and do that. Ruth's death was a direct result of an Ofsted inspection. I've been trying for the last 11 months, it's 11 months ago today that Ruth took her own life life to point out the fatal flaws in Ofsted's inspection system and been ignored. And that the chief inspector herself can go on, use her public voice and public platform to make such a crass and outrageous claim is just unacceptable. Well, there's a new chief inspector starting in January, Sir Martin Oliver. What's your message to him?

I have a meeting in the diary to meet him very first week of his appointment in January. I very much hope that he is conscious of the massive challenge he's facing. What is needed to respond, not just to my sister's death, as though that isn't terrible and devastating enough, but to the mental health crisis in the teaching profession, which has exposed the outpouring of anger and upset and rage against Ofsted. I hope that the new chief inspector understands the strength of feeling and the need for massive change, not just for tweaks. And I have to ask, how are you all? We're struggling. We're getting by.

We're generally a resilient bunch, so we're managing but it's hard and um yeah Ruth's loss is immense to all of us and it's you know it's something that can't can't be filled and we just have to find some way of moving on and um yeah yeah I a local a neighbor um spoke to me quite soon after I first spoke out a neighbor lovely neighbor who'd lost her son in quite traumatic circumstances and she said to me I think the one one word of advice that um has been meaningful. And she just said, life has a way of pulling you forward. And that's just what it feels now. Life just pulls us forward, pulls us further away from that. But it's why it's so important that we ensure that things change

so that no other family has to go through this. That was me speaking to Professor Julia Waters there. Well, we have a statement from the Education Secretary, Gillian Keegan, who said, My heart goes out to Ruth's family, friends and school community. Her death was a tragedy that not only shocked the local community, but also the wider sector and beyond. It's clear from the coroner's findings that lessons need to be learned. We've worked closely with Ruth's family, as well as with Ofsted, to introduce key reforms and further support for our school leaders.

I'm extremely grateful to Ruth's sister, Julia, and her friends for working so closely with us to introduce these changes. Ofsted is fundamental to making sure children are safe and receive the education they deserve. Together, we will look closely at the coroner's recommendations to consider further changes to make sure we have an inspection system that supports schools and teachers and ultimately secure Ruth's legacy. That was a statement from the Education Secretary, Gillian Keegan.

Also, the BBC's education editor, Branwyn Jeffries, presents a programme all about Ruth Perry, which you can now watch on iPlayer. It's called The Death of a Head. And if you've been affected by the issues discussed, please go to the BBC Action Line website for advice and support. Now, political leaders and climate activists are in Dubai for COP28, and just before the UN conference started, the UK Environment Secretary announced a series

of measures to help more people get access to our natural heritage in order to help tackle climate change, including funding to help more children get into the countryside. Well, Kwasi'a is connecting a whole new generation of city dwellers with the great outdoors. Kwasi'a, otherwise known as City Girl in Nature, grew up in Deptford in south-east London, but it was a life-changing trip to the Amazon that started her on her nature journey. Kwasi, otherwise known as City Girl in Nature, grew up in Deptford in south-east London, but it was a life-changing trip to the Amazon that started her on her nature journey. Determined to share her experience with others, she set up a YouTube channel and also a podcast called Get Birding, which recently won Best New Voice at the Audio Production Awards. Well, Krupa began by asking her about growing up in Deptford.

It wasn't like it is now, gentrified and stuff. Coming from a place close to a state called Peeps Estate, it was obviously quite challenging. A lot of people within my community have an experience, hardship through inequalities, poverty, and I guess that comes along with challenges, as well as stuff like knife crime and you know. And these are some things that you impacted that you were impacted by firsthand and

know that you ended up homeless for a while. Yeah so I was homeless after a build-up of quite a few life events that happened to me across two years spans including losing my auntie to an honour killing, my friend dying from knife crime and being a young carer, which really, what really turned my mental health into where the state it was, was actually losing my friend from knife crime, which really impacted me and impacts the community quite a lot and is normalised as well. And there's no support when those types of things happen

with these types of communities, which in turn, just like me, made my mental health go into overdrive. And I guess that's where I had a family breakdown and my situation then turned into me sofa surfing. You've clearly had obstacles to overcome in your young life. How do you go then from sofa surfing, as you put it, and hostels to the Amazon? So I guess I was working with a brilliant, brilliant organisation and project called Black Minds Matter. And they were working with young people trying to build social change leaders. And I guess Serpentipity, I was there working with that project.

And also a guy from the British Exploring Society came in and presented this opportunity to go on an expedition. I had a secret passion for David Attenborough documentaries. Don't we all? But that then came a reality for me. My next step after never camping before was to the Peruvian Amazon for three weeks with no phone and strangers. And how was that? camping before was to the Peruvian Amazon for three weeks with no phone and strangers. And how was that? It was completely life changing and changed the trajectory of my life, actually.

How? So I guess how it happened was I spent myself, I was emerged in nature and I found it truly healing. I felt that a lot of the trauma I had faced being in nature gave me the opportunity to have another chance at life and in fact some of my experiences were quite extreme so it felt really good to just like be able to feel free and nature provided that space and facilitated that healing I guess that I'm speaking about and I wanted more people to feel that feeling. So it wasn't just about you and your own healing you wanted to kind of spread that joy. So you launched your platforms.

Yep. And that's why I started doing the work that I do, just using myself as an example so that more young people and people that have these experience understand the importance of having a relationship with our natural world. What's been the response from people you grew up with

and the community that you grew up around? So it's quite funny because when I first told them I was going to the Amazon some of them didn't even know where it was and some people were like what are you crazy? Yeah and I guess that was interesting having that feedback but I was completely looking forward to like I couldn't imagine, like what it would be like, but I kind of did. And I was excited by that. And I guess by having the life experiences I did, it built that resilience to really just go for that opportunity. I was going through some of your videos and there's one that was so heartwarming. It was you talking to your mum about repotting plants.

That's exactly what i do with my mum now and i grew up in a very kind of a bit of an urban jungle really you didn't even realize there was acres of greenery down the road because we were never really exposed to it um but one thing we did do as kids is repot plants and have those conversations you've really touched communities not just your own generation, but older generations too, haven't you? Definitely, yeah. Especially not just with my platform with City Girl Nature, but hosting Get Birding, for instance. I've spoken to people that are visually impaired even and just showing that wherever you are, you know, you can connect with nature on your doorstep. Yeah. You've recently had a baby. Congratulations.

Thank you. Little boy, little girl? Little boy, yeah. Little boy. How has that changed the way you are seeing nature, I wonder? So it's really gave me another new set of eyes. It's really transformative, you know, having a child, the whole process and the innate feelings that you feel and just how transformative our life goes once having a baby and the whole process as I say and just the importance of him building that relationship with nature from a young age and I also did a lotus birth which for those who don't know is where the baby is still attached to the placenta and it falls off naturally So just like homing into holistic practices and, you know, getting that relationship with nature

from a baby and continuing it as that child grows is something that I've found so important and definitely something I'm trying to do in my next project too. Next project, because let me just go through the various projects that you've got underway. You've got your podcast, you've got your YouTube channel. You also organise trips away and nature walks for young people.

You're a busy lady. Yeah, but it's all coming from a place of passion and, you know, seeing those young people and people being impacted by the things that we're doing. Like, I just ran a camp in summer for 11 to 16-year-olds in the New Forest. Good on you. Brilliant. All of these types of experiences are life-changing, big and small. Could a young Kwasiha have thought of herself in this position just a few years ago?

When you look back at all of what you've achieved, how do you feel? I guess serendipity is the word that I like to use nowadays because I wouldn't have imagined it, but it's what life has given me, I guess. Yeah. Inspiring. Kwesia talking to Krupa there. Nicole said, what an amazing woman, blew me away.

Georgina said, loved this, nature is a healer. And another said, Kwesia moved me deeply, what an eloquent woman. And if you'd like to get in touch about anything you hear on the programme, email us via our website or contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. All you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. There you will find such delights as an interview with Mary Berry and the actor and activist America Ferreira. Now, one of our listeners recently got in touch to

share her story. Lina Mukherjee had been married to her husband, Richard, for more than 15 years when he lost both his sight and hearing. Richard has retinitis pigmentosa and was 38 when he found out he would one day go blind. By the time they met more than a decade later, he'd already lost some of his sight and around six years ago he went fully blind. However, neither of them were prepared for him to rapidly lose his hearing at the same time. Lena is now as much a carer as she is a wife. She does everything functional for Richard, including cooking, driving, making important phone calls and constantly narrating every scene to him. Krupa spoke to both of them and began by asking Lena why she wanted to speak to Woman's Hour. I feel very strongly about giving voice to the thousands and thousands of carers who are the silent, invisible workers that society, much of society today, choose not to acknowledge or even value.

And it was my way of giving voice to those of us in this position, from young carers right the way through. And also for those suffering with sensory disabilities, which are hidden. And as we said, we tick so many boxes in terms of our isms. We don't fit into mainstream society and often treated as oddities. And I'm saying, no, no, no, there's many oddities. It's just that we're honest about them

and we can't hide them. Well, I'm glad you did. And your story that we're honest about them and we can't hide them. Well, I'm glad you did. And your story and what I understand about it is very powerful. Richard, I want to learn more about you. You were a very independent person. What impact did losing your hearing and eyesight have on you? They were quite different, Cooper, because losing my sight was something I knew was happening very progressively. And I anticipated it and, in a sense, planned for it to some degree and adjusted to it over time. Whereas my hearing declined really quite rapidly, entirely unexpected. And I had learned to rely on my hearing to compensate for not seeing.

So that's been a much more significant, much more painful process. and I had learned to rely on my hearing to compensate for not seeing. So that's been a much more significant, much more painful process and much more isolating. If people say, well, would you rather lose sight or hearing? I would rather lose sight. Hearing isolates you. I've been losing my eyesight since I was born. It's a progressive condition. I was registered as partially sighted at the age of nine.

I was registered as blind, technically blind, by the time I was 36. But I still had quite a lot of usable residual vision left, whereas my hearing was really good until about five or six years ago. And that's been the most disempowering thing for you? It has. It has, really, yes. I can't take part in conversations. I can't hear people say hello. I don't know whether they're talking to me.

There's just a mumble of sound. Lena, it's interesting that Richard said he was anticipating the loss of his sight. But I wonder for you, what went through your head when Richard started to lose his hearing as well as his sight? First, panic and dread and the, oh, my God, this is really happening. And it was a bit of a joke in our earlier life, in our married life, that, you know, I've lost my sight and I've got excellent hearing. That's fine. The contract had changed on some level but it

was absolute terror because I just thought how on earth are we gonna function and and loss so the the panic of trying to keep going and to make things work was bloody hard yeah and you've even used the word anger you've used the word being angry as well and that's very honest of you oh yes because um the anger was with the world you don't realize the loss until it's really gone so the anger was very much about my powerlessness i couldn't make this better i couldn't make a difference to make this better because sensory loss, there is no making better because once it's gone, it's gone. And that's a very disempowering, lonely place to be.

And anger was my protest, but it's not useful. It can be useful if you can use it effectively. But in my case, well, no, because there was no way I could make this any better for Richard and ultimately for both of us it's interesting you both used the word lonely there but you had each other it's lonely because it's the rest of the world that you're excluded from or have to feel the need to exclude yourself from because it's so hard to cope with going out in into social environments because I can't

function and Nina either interprets all the time, in other words, talks to me, translates if you like, because she has a microphone around her neck and I have a receiver around mine and I can hear her unless, of course, the background noise is so loud I can't hear her. There's so much distortion and so many people think if you've got a hearing problem it's simply a volume problem. For me it isn't at all. I can get a lot of volume but my hearing is distorted so I can't hear. I can't hear music anymore because it sounds like it's all off key so I've lost that too. Things that you used to enjoy so very much. Absolutely. Lena at marriage we talk about being with one another,

standing by one another's side in sickness and in health. What has that come to mean for you? I think for me it's about being honest with myself. Where am I in this relationship now? And being respectful to me and to Richard to say as is, so standing by each other literally has meant digging into the deeper, darker areas of relating, including the hurt, the mutual anger, the mutual frustration, and walking alongside the suffering.

Because at the end of the day, as I said earlier, I can't make it better. But what I can do is alleviate some of the loneliness and suffering by being a companion in that suffering. And that, to me, is standing by and including my wedding vows, which were about, yeah, in sickness and in health. And by goodness, well, I have been tested. And I'm glad that I have gone to those dark places and will continue to do so. You know, it's a progressive loss. But I know I have the

stamina. And the bigger reason to be with Richard is because I love him. When you're in those dark places, you're understandably concerned about Richard. But what about you? Who do you turn to in those dark places? Well, that's been fascinating, Krupa, because we were part of big social circles, because we were, we were part of various groups and friends. And the testing out of those early days of who is going to be with us and be with us in this suffering. And I quickly began to realise that there are friends and there are those who are

befrienders and will walk with us so who is there for me I can count them on one hand who have what I call the stamina the want and the love to be with us they can't understand what it's like for us you can't live with it but be prepared to listen not have to look for solutions but there aren't many and at the end of the day I have to dig deep within myself and the early hours of the morning of the test when I'm wondering will I find a way through this in this panic and I'd have and will continue to do so and therapy has helped really helped I was going to say I'm glad you've had some support. But in those early hours, when you're lying awake, looking at the ceiling, thoughts going through your mind, do you turn to prayer?

Do you turn to, I mean, what's your routine to kind of shake it off and crack on with caring for Richard and being there for him? The big thing is about self-care. So the self-care about, and you said something really important there about shaking off movement. Movement is one of the greatest antidotes to when you freeze and that's the panic because when I'm feeling powerless, I freeze. So to move, to swim, to exercise,

to get out into the world as a society person, because I'm not non-society like Richard. I still have my faculties. I'm making sure those needs are still met and I have choice so my yoga practice my writing my gardening gardening has been an absolute salvation for us both we're both therapists we've enabled people all our working lives to grow and to see grow through plants and to feel that and to enjoy that it's been absolutely healing the greenhouse

is my is my scene because things are within reach and I know where they are and I know what I planted. And that way I can really enjoy it. It's just delightful. And I've been growing things I've never grown before this year. Oh, the power of nature. Lina, I want to kind of move into some difficult territory because you have had individuals in your life

who have said at various points, Richard they have indeed and in fact when I have been told and I can remember saying trade him in for a younger motor why are you wasting your life why put up with his stuff when you should be out with people who are enjoying life. So that honestly, for quite a few years, put me into a bit of a spin because I start to doubt what my priorities are. And maybe I am missing out. Maybe I am confused about my commitments. When an expression has been shared, oh, thank God, Richard, it's you and it's not me that's got these conditions. My heart just drops and it's dread thinking, wow, is that the fickleness of human compassion? So, yes, I have been tested and very much about what is my commitment and loyalty.

What do those words mean? And they're honourable words for me, because as we go back to the sickness and in health, it's standing by in good times and the not so good times but we come back to a level where there's profound love and that's out of respect as well. And I know that you fall back on this concept that is rooted in the Hindi culture really of seva and that that's a hard word to translate because it's more than just selflessness, isn't it? Shabba, as we say in Bengali, is very much about the walking alongside suffering and the fact that human existence is full of suffering as well as joy.

But what you get from it to knowing that, as we've always said, isn't it, Richard, this is palliative care of the longitudinal life because it is. We know it's coming into decline. We knew this when we got married, because there's a 25-year difference between us in years. But I knew that. And however naive it was at 30, I knew it was going to come to some change, profound change. And it has. But Sheva, to me, is the greatest respect of showing love I cannot make him better I cannot make me in the situation better but what I can do is show my commitment my strength and and joy that actually

we can look at life and go there's more than this or this it's all of this there's there's the honoring of what's in shadow and not seen but actually let's live it we've come to experience each other in marriage let's live it to the full and by god we've done it continue to do that lena i've just spoke to lena for the past few minutes and she sounds like a remarkable woman what does having her by your side mean to you? She is remarkable because we have both given high priority in our existence to valuing honesty as much as we can. We've learned to be extremely honest with each other and talk about the sorts of questions many people might choose to avoid,

like, do you want to leave me? Are we going to separate? Do we go our separate ways? We were talking the other day, and I used the phrase ringing the most out of life, using the word ringing with a W. And Nina said, yeah, and it's doing that without the W as well. We ring the bells of real extreme delight that we can enjoy as much of life as we can. We've had problems doing that,

of course, the humour as well, it's helped enormously. Richard and Lena, well Donna got in touch to say an extremely moving and honest account. I became a carer for my late husband too and whilst you're exhausted emotionally and physically, the person who you married and those vows you made together is still with you, needing your love, help and physical presence more than ever. It's a sad thing to hear that people suggested to do otherwise. And Sarita says, being a carer is wild, bonkers, brutal and beautiful all at once. It's a test of patience, resolve and spirit. It's devalued and is at times a derogatory term, yet we have to start caring and amplifying the voices and stories of those who do additional caring.

It's all in the shadows at the moment and the more we normalise it and value it, the better. And you can find details of organisations that can offer information and support for carers on the Woman's Hour website. Now, are you a big Christmas present giver? Research suggests that the average Briton spends £300 on Christmas gifts, for carers on the Woman's Hour website. Now, are you a big Christmas present giver? Research suggests that the average Briton spends £300 on Christmas gifts. Well, one woman who is booking this trend is the writer and journalist Nell Frizzell, who says that her family Christmases have improved since they stopped buying one another gifts. Well, Krupa spoke to her and Ellie Gibson, comedian and one half of Scummy Mummies, who is a big fan of gifting every festive season. She started by asking Nell why she doesn't give presents.

It's not because I'm mean and it's not because I don't love my family. It's basically because I think having to schlep around an overheated, like wham blasting, polyester stinking shopping centre for the whole of December and probably a lot of November is a terrible way to treat the people you love, to expect them to do that for you is so miserable. And, you know, the amazing thing about traditions and Christmas is that it is what you make it. You know, if you do things in a certain way, your family and your children will just grow up thinking that's how it's done. And so I'm really lucky. I'm a privileged woman. I can, if I need pyjamas, I can buy pyjamas. If I want a scented candle, I can get a scented candle. I don't really need my 73 year old mother or my full-time working sister or my six-year-old son to go out and buy

those things for me at Christmas. And, you know, I understand the tradition of giving gifts at Christmas is, you know, older than Christmas. The Druids were exchanging things and, you know, and the Romans at Saturnalia were exchanging things, but mainly that was stigs and twigs. It was bits of mistletoe. It was bits of holly to sort of wish you luck for spring so maybe this year you know we went through we'll do it under a fiver we'll do homemade presents you know we'll do things that you have got second hand experimented absolutely yeah i'm giving up on the nicotine gum we've gone cold and it's now absolutely nothing but maybe this year twigs and sticks or nothing how do you

explain that to your six-year-old son i haven't had to really you know that he goes to school with enough people who don't get christmas at you know don't get presents at christmas because maybe they celebrate diwali or eid or you know they're doing a different festival or there are always going to be people around you who can't afford to do this. You know, the YouGov poll I was looking up from last year said the average Briton spends £642 at Christmas. £300 of that is on presents. There are so many families this year who don't have £300 to spend on presents. And I think if people like me are not buying presents, I don't send my child into school reeling off this

huge list of you know landfill that he's been given and that will ease it for the children whose parents can't afford to give them that kind of thing and I think it's about setting expectations also Christmas you can do it in so many ways you know there's food what children really want is time off school they want to to stay in their pyjamas all day. They want to watch too much telly and eat something brown. But now, I've got little ones. What about the magic of Santa? Well, I, you know, Santa is not my responsibility.

He does his own thing. And he leaves footprints on the stairs that smell surprisingly like coconut. And he eats his carrots. And food arrives in the stocking as it does in Germany and it does in Eastern Europe you know on different days of the year um but personally I don't I don't do anything like that he sprinkles a bit of fairy dust um I want to bring Ellie in here how do you feel about all of this oh oh I love Christmas I have got an elf on the shelf spreadsheet uh to help him organise his activities.

I've got a Christmas bullet journal where I keep a list of all the presents I'm getting everyone. And then year to year, I can make sure I don't get them the same thing. I'm I'm super into it. I mean, I agree with a lot of what Nell says. And of course, a lot of people aren't in a position where they even have the luxury of making the choice about whether or not to buy presents. And personally, I'm lucky enough enough I do have that choice and I love it so yes I'm down the shops most days in December having a marvellous time. What's been your strategy this year to present buying? Well for me I think we do do wish lists in our house I mean yes I have a nine-year-old who has a list of landfill as long as your arm, quite honestly. Most of it Danish small brick based. But we what we do is we have this,

but we have an agreement that we understand we're not going to get everything on the list and we don't. So then what you do get is a surprise, especially for me, because my birthday is in October. So I give my husband a list of birthday presents in October and then he gets me a few things and then because I'm 46 by the time Christmas comes around I've forgotten what was on the list so it's a marvellous surprise I go oh how did you know what I wanted and he goes because you wrote it down but that's a system we've had to develop because he's given me some terrible gifts over the years oh tell me about terrible gifts yes yes my husband once gave me a Tottenham scarf and I'm not even a Tottenham fan. But that's a good question.

I've had this message in from Marianne who says, I am sick of passive aggressive gift giving. I'm at a peak stuff and I need nothing. And I tell my friends so. Then one of them comes along and hands me a gift. And despite my desire not to have the gift, I then feel obliged to give them something in return. How do I get them to stop? Or do I just say thank you and carry on without rather returning the favour? Now, do you want to take that one? Cut the door on their fingers. No, I think there are so many other lovely things you can do at

Christmas. I genuinely think offering childcare or respite care for people with carers. Oh, that's interesting. Make them some meals for their freezer, go around, paint their kitchen, you know, repair things. I'm sewing on a lot of buttons and darning a lot of jumpers for people this year instead of giving them presents. Do their washing up, push their buggy, get them a library card. There are loads of things that aren't presents that you can do for people around Christmas that are really valuable and will last a lot longer. But if you've got one of those friends who just cannot resist giving you something,

I think you just have to have a couple of wrapped bits of coal and throw it at them as they go past. Ellie, have you ever had to reject a gift? Not so much reject, but what I have done is taken terrible gifts and turned them into comedy. So in our current show, I show the audience some of the gifts my husband has given me over the years, like a men's toiletry set.

That was a hit one year. Actually said sporty and fresh on it. Two words I've never been described as. That was quite good. Always terrible underwear. Often men like to give, don't they, terrible underwear. Whereas what we really want, especially at Christmas, is a pair of enormous comfy pants so big you can put the turkey in and defrost it with your own body heat. So I think we just we maybe need to be just a bit clearer about what we want to avoid the waste this message says I detest Christmas but my partner loves it so for Christmas he goes away to his mother's and I stay at home and I have a duvet day with the dog now how do you deal with people who might want a present but aren't getting one from you? My husband's love language is gift giving. And so we are a very unhappy couple at Christmas

because he occasionally says things like, I'd really like a running watch. And I just act like I can't hear him and walk away. So I think it is tricky. And I think if you know, if there are people in your life, and it's really important to them you know then of course that's the thing that you have to negotiate and when I say negotiate I mean bring in the UN weapons inspectors because it can get pretty spicy at home when you're talking about these kind of things but also they have to respect the fact that you don't like this year is my birthday today my husband has changed the handlebars on my bike from drop handlebars to straight handlebars and that is genuinely the kind of present I want something useful and it will save my sciatica for years to come. I do want to read a few more of the many messages that we are getting this one from Grace

says I haven't given or received presents for years and I gave a sum to charity instead and another idea from this listener who says our family, both sides, decided around 10 years ago to stop gifting between adults. As soon as any child in the family reaches 18, that's it. It works really well. What do you make of that idea, Ellie? Kids only? Oh, no. My mother stopped helping.

She stopped leaving my Santa out, my stocking out for Santa when I was about 22. And I remain devastated. I've had to have years of therapy. I'm very sad about it. I think just keep it going. There you go. Both arguments laid out. The choice, ladies and gentlemen, is yours.

Ellie Gibson and Nell Frizzell there. That's it for today. Join Emma on Monday. Louise Doughty, bestselling author of Apple Tree Yard, tells us about her new ITV drama, Platform 7, and why she loves to turn male spy thrillers and police procedurals on their head. Have a great weekend.

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