Woman's Hour - Ruth Perry's sister on Ofsted review, Paralympian medallists, Director Susanne Bier

Episode Date: September 3, 2024

Head teacher Ruth Perry took her own life in January last year whilst waiting for the publication of an Ofsted report she knew would grade her school as "inadequate". Ruth’s sister, Professor Julia Waters, has been campaigning for change in the way Ofsted rates schools ever since. A review was published today into Ofsted's response to Ruth Perry’s death, and yesterday the Government announced changes to the way the school's inspector for England rates schools. Nuala McGovern is joined by Professor Waters to give her response. Susanne Bier is an award-winning director who has worked with stars from Jennifer Lawrence to Sandra Bullock. Her newest project, The Perfect Couple, stars Nicole Kidman and centres around a wealthy family in Nantucket. Susanne joins Nuala to talk about the series and how she’s leading the way for female directors.Today we speak to not just one Paralympic medallist but two - Team GB triathletes Lauren Steadman and Claire Cashmore. Yesterday they won bronze and silver in the Para-triathlon category, PTS5. They join Nuala on the line from Paris. To mother is a political act. That’s the premise of a new book – Mother State: A Political History of Motherhood, which reimagines the history of modern Britain through the figure and work of the mother. The author Helen Charman tells Nuala why she believes that motherhood is inherently a political state, and why it matters, whether you have children or not. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, in a moment, Professor Julia Waters, the sister of headteacher Ruth Perry, who took her own life in January 2023 after an Ofsted inspection, downgraded her school in Reading from outstanding to inadequate. She'll be giving me her reaction

to a report out today which criticises the way Ofsted dealt with her and her family following Ruth's death. Also today, Paralympian rivals and friends Lauren Stedman and Claire Cashmore

on their bronze and silver wins for Team GB yesterday in Paris, and also how their rivalry spurs them on. Which brings me to you. Have you had a rival that pushed you to achieve? Could be in any sphere, work, love, sport. And can you attribute your success, at least in part, to them? Or maybe you lost out to a rival and yes it can be friendly you can text the programme the number is 84844

on social media we're at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website you can send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number

03700 100 444 there are lots of rivals in the new Netflix series The Perfect Couple. We have the director, Susanna Beer, on what it's like to direct an A-list cast in a most glorious setting. She calls it elegant popcorn. It is popcorn that I have binged on.

We'll talk about it. Also, Helen Charman will be here. Her book is Mother State, A Political History of Motherhood, making the case for what she sees liberated mothering could be. And she's not only talking about women who have had children. So that is also coming up this hour.

But let us begin with a major independent review that has found that Ofsted's response to headteacher Ruth Perry's suicide following a school inspection was defensive and complacent. Ruth had been head of Caversham Primary School in Berkshire for 13 years when she took her own life in January last year. That was ahead of an inspection report being made public.

It had been downgrading her school from outstanding to inadequate based on safeguarding concerns. Ruth had no previous history of mental ill health and a report from the coroner stated that Ofsted likely contributed to Ruth Perry's death. Her school was regraded last year to good. In her diary shortly before she took her own life Ruth had wrote the word inadequate and said that inadequate keeps flashing behind my eyes. The current chief inspector of Ofsted, Sir Martin Oliver, spoke to my colleagues on the Today programme this morning and said that he accepted the findings of the independent review and wanted to concentrate on providing

a good service in the future. Let's remember we do thousands, tens of thousands of inspections and the vast, vast majority of them go exceptionally well and we get great feedback. And indeed in some of the survey responses and in Dame Christine Gilbert's review, there are plenty of mentions about how things have improved, not just since I took over, but they've been improving since my predecessor made some changes.

So we know that we can make a difference and we will continue to make a difference for children. Well, we reported on the programme yesterday that many parents and teachers welcomed the news from the government that Ofsted will scrap the one or two word judgments. They were outstanding, good, requires improvement or inadequate as a means of evaluating a school's performance in England. And this follows the work of a high-profile campaign by Ruth Perry's sister, Professor Julia Waters, who I'm pleased to say joins us on the programme now. And welcome back to Woman's Hour, Julia. Good morning.

Let me begin with the findings of Dame Christine Gilbert's independent review today. What is your response to what you've heard? Well, I would like to say that I'm surprised and shocked to learn of the extent of dysfunction within Ofsted, to learn of its defensive and complacent institutional culture. But having been on the receiving end of that culture in terms of Ofsted's public response after my sister's death, I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised.

But there is clearly an awful lot of work that Sir Martin Oliver is going to need to do to put that culture right. If he really does want, as he said, to look to the future and to rebuild trust and to build on the, yes, positive changes that have come in already. There still seem to be some profound problems within Ofsted, its structures, its systems, its culture that need to be urgently addressed if the positive messages that are coming out now about reform are actually to be realised. When you were with us last December, you told us that you had screamed long and loud at the radio when you heard the former Ofsted chief inspector, Amanda Spielman, talking about your sister's death. And as a reminder, Spielman had told us on Woman's Hour last November that Ruth Perry's death had been used by the media and others

to discredit Ofsted. And you talk about not being surprised today, but what would you say is your feeling, kind of putting all that in context perhaps from that time? Well, as I made the comment at the time, that it was just outrageous and extraordinarily insensitive to suggest that in calling for change, talking about what had happened to my sister,

that it was being used to discredit Ofsted. I think what Christine Gilbert's report shows very clearly was that there were absolutely profound and dangerous gaps in systems, a defensive culture that would never accept that they could possibly do anything wrong. You know, it says in this report that most Ofsted staff and the board of Ofsted that are meant to hold Ofsted to account found out about Ruth's death via the media. That Ofsted staff, the board, and actually the Department for Education were shocked by the inquest conclusions because they'd been told that Ofsted had done nothing wrong. And so here we see, if you like, behind the scenes, what was going on

that made Amanda Spielman feel she could go out publicly and make these statements that were hurtful and turned out to be wrong. Let me read a statement. We did contact Ofsted and the Chief Inspector Sir Martin Oliver said the tragic death of Ruth Perry was a catalyst for this change. But the case for change has been building for years. We recognise the growing challenges facing education and social care, particularly since the pandemic. We don't want to add to this pressure. Many of the changes we are introducing are aimed at reducing the pressure on those we inspect. We always strive for higher standards for children, particularly the most vulnerable children.

And I should say we also contacted Amanda Spielman, who was chief inspector, as we were saying, when Mrs. Perry died. She did decline to comment. I want to get into a couple of specifics with the review. It said that Ofsted did not attempt to contact the school or Mrs Perry's family in the months following her death and could have shown empathy by seeking to speak with them straight away. Do you think,

that's a difficult question maybe, that some of the pain off the aftermath of your sister's death could have been mitigated in some way if you had been contacted by the organisation earlier? That's possible. I think what's more important, actually, than Ofsted showing empathy is Ofsted learning lessons. Martin Oliver, like his predecessor, has spoken often about Ruth's

tragic death. The tragedy of Ruth's death was it was preventable. Ofsted and the Department for Education have been issued with prevention of future death reports by the coroner. You can only prevent a death if you're prepared to learn lessons from that death and turning to looking towards the future without looking at the failings and the mistakes of the past is wrong-footed in my opinion. With that the current Chief Inspector Sir Martin Oliver that you mentioned there I heard him this morning on today saying he met with you on his second day of the job that that that engagement continues. Do you feel your message is getting through? Do you feel

the reception is different to Miss Spielman, for example? I was, I said at the time when I first met Martin Oliver, I was cautiously optimistic. He certainly said all the right things. He seemed to understand, having been a head teacher himself i haven't actually seen martin oliver since march i only received christine gilbert's report yesterday at the same time it went out to the media um i'm quite surprised that martin oliver feels that there's been an ongoing engagement. It's been quite patchy in recent months. But, you know, I have been reassured that change is going on without me and without my input. And of course, I just have Sir Martin Oliver's words from this morning, from today, not to him to respond directly to you right now, but that is also how you see the relationship thus far. You know, yesterday and today, I suppose, some of the specifics coming out saying that inspectors will now be trained in mental health

and an inspection will be paused if a head teacher is in severe mental distress. I'm wondering how you see that. Do you have faith in that, it's specific training that acknowledges the power imbalance between the inspector and the inspected. As you said at the beginning, Ruth had no history of mental illness before that inspection and it was the rude and intimidating behaviour of the inspector, the shock of that inspection and the consequences of an inadequate judgment that really preyed on her mind. And what is being recommended is that that sort of general mental health training be much more targeted for the specifics of that power dynamic between inspector and inspected.

I think the other point that you made about giving schools like Ruth the chance to put right what were actually quite minor issues around safeguarding record-keeping before the final inspection report comes out is eminently sensible. And I welcome that. And I've been arguing that that should be the case right from the start. Ruth was more than capable of putting right the few slips that were identified by the inspector. And it so preyed on her mind that she wasn't given that opportunity to improve the school she loved herself, you know, and she feared losing her job. And if I may pick up on something you said right at the beginning, just to clarify, the inquest concluded that the Ofsted inspection contributed

to Ruth's death, not likely contributed, but it contributed to Ruth's death. There was no doubt around that. Forgive me if that wording is incorrect. Yeah, it's a sort of legal technicality, if you like. But the words are important. Coming to words, actually, why don't we go straight there? Because yesterday we talked about this, that they are scrapping

the one or two word judgments as I was putting them out, whether it's, you know, requires improvement or inadequate, of course, which was the terrible words that haunted your sister. How do you feel about

them being scrapped? I did see this Shadow Education Secretary, Damien Hines, said the headline inspection outcome was a vital indicator for parents and that it's an accessible means to understand how a school is performing. You know, they haven't replaced it with anything yet. We know it's going to be a report card coming from September 2025. Your thoughts?

I'm really pleased that the the new government has recognized how damaging those single word judgments are but also how simplistic and reductive and unhelpful they are for parents and actually to counter what damien heinz said yesterday ofsted's own research that they have published now coming out of the big listen clearly says that 78% of parents do not like single word judgments. So he's quoting outdated and discredited data there to defend a point that has been proven to be flawed. I'm happy to move on now from the era of defending single word judgments that is a very welcome and overdue um change that i know from the hundreds of messages i've received since yesterday is widely predominantly welcomed by the teaching profession

so that is a great move and i want to talk about this moment that we're in with you in just a moment. But just briefly, I had Sir Michael Wilshaw on yesterday. He was a former chief Ofsted inspector. He changed his mind over time about the one word, two word. What would we call it? Kind of characterisation of a school. But he also said to me yesterday, which I thought was interesting, that Ofsted inspectors need to spend at least two days of a school. But he also said to me yesterday, which I thought was interesting, that Ofsted inspectors need to spend

at least two days in a school instead of the one. Is that something you would also champion? I think there is a real danger. And here, you might be surprised to hear this. I think that the Ofsted inspectors themselves are not best served by the current framework and the pressures they are under. Reading Christine Gilbert's review, who would want to work for that organisation? Reading how Ofsted inspectors themselves are treated, the lack of communication,

the complete lack of any performance management processes and so on. They're being kept in the dark about what's going on, the pressures they are under. So I do think there needs to be a proper discussion and decision about what it is actually feasible for inspectors to do in the time they have, in the budget constraints they have. I don't think personally, but it's up to the government. And the answer is to throw more money at Ofsted. It's actually to have a proper discussion and reflection on what Ofsted's purpose is and what it needs to prioritise

and give them the time and the training and the focus to be able to do that. You have been working very hard on this campaign since the death of your sister. And you talked about kind of putting that one word or two word behind you that there's been a decision on that now. But I do wonder, do you draw a line as well after this review on some of the work you've done or does it continue? Where are you at?

I would love to be able to draw a line and to be able to at least pause and to give myself time to grieve and to spend time on my own well-being and with my family but it always seems to be this kind of unattainable um target that goes on that there is still this you know getting rid of the single word judgment is a a really important first step and a really significant signal that the new government is listening and understands the changes that need to be made. I hope that Bridget Philipson follows through with that and everything she has said to me and to the sector reassures me that she will.

I'm not yet convinced that Ofsted has sorted out its own culture in a way that will allow me to step back, if you like. I mean, it shouldn't be up to a bereaved family member to keep sounding the alarm about what's dangerous about their system. But I mean, the thing I think for now that I feel I need to push for, and I have been pushing pushing for is far, far greater transparency and openness in Ofsted. I hope you'll come back to us, Professor Julia Waters. Thank you very much for spending some time with us this morning on Woman's Hour. And if you have been affected by the issues in this story, help and support is available at the BBC Action Line. I want to turn next to TV and to something that is called The Perfect Couple. It is a new Netflix series.

It's directed by my guest, Susanna Beer. She also directed the film Bird Box and the TV series The Night Manager. Her film In a Better World won an Oscar for Best International Film in 2011. And in her latest project, it's based on Ellen Hildebrand's novel, we meet a wealthy, entitled family living in Nantucket who are plunged into chaos when a crime occurs on their property

on the morning of a lavish wedding. And what a cast. Nicole Kidman, Liev Schreiber, Dakota Fanning, Eve Hewson, Megan Fahey. They're just some of the actors that we follow through this mystery romance. Susanna herself has described the series as elegant popcorn. I spoke to her earlier and she told me what she means by that. You know, popcorn is a kind of slightly condescending terms for film and television, which reaches a huge audience.

I have an enormous amount of respect for that. I have an enormous amount of respect for that. I have an enormous amount of respect for being able to talk to a lot of people at one time. But I did feel that it needed to be somewhat elevated, or I felt it needed to have a kind of magic to it. So my pitch to them was it needs to be elegant popcorn. It needs to be, to be, to have a kind of precision and a beauty, but still be really compelling for a lot of people. And it was. But you have this fabulous ensemble cast. I mean, if we talk about Nicole Kidman or Eve Hewson or Eve Schreiber or Megan Fahey, and I'm just mentioning four people there. Every person you look at is a star.

It's a very particular time, isn't it, that we're living through in television? It is. I mean, I think it started, it sort of softly started 10 years ago and then five years ago, it kind of became very real. The fact that even huge big movie stars now don't feel that they're degrading themselves by doing television. And I think it's because everyone is realizing

that if you want to talk to an audience, you know, television is really the most immediate. It's not exclusively the only media, but it's sort of the most immediate media. And for a director like myself, it's incredibly fascinating having six hours to play with. And therefore having a big cast and give every single person in the big cast their moment, which you won't be able to do in two hours. How is that? Was there a lot of egos in the room? It's fun. It really is fun.

I can see that you're laughing slightly, not quite believing me, but it is fun because yes, there is a lot of navigating big egos, there is also a lot of creativity a lot of great ideas a lot of kind of um wonderful alive madness in that space and yes it takes you it takes it for a director you kind of need to to kind of to kind of hold all that creativity and make sure that it doesn't stray. But there's a lot of wonderful, surprising gifts in that space. And you have actors, of course, that are at the top of their game that you are also directing. We won't do any spoilers here, but I will talk about the opening credits when you have all of them dancing, you know, these, you know, names that we know and have watched grow up, whether it's Dakota Fanning, for example. Let me just throw her in as well as another one off the stars.

And it pulls you in. Everybody seems to be in tandem, synchronised, dancing together. Were you part of that opening credits in deciding to have it like that oh yeah i decided to have it and and where did that come from at some point in the script there was like a nightmare sequence where there was a dance and i was like i don't want to do the nightmare i don't want to do that but there was something about the dance that kind of it kept staying with me and i was like we I want to do opening credits, which is a dance. And I want to create something where you feel that they are all together and where you see all of those amazing actors, but also where you as an audience know this is going to be fun. You're not telling the audience this is going to be serious and, you know, this is homework.

You are actually telling the audience, hey, you are allowed to enjoy and you're allowed to laugh. And I wanted that. I think that's going to go viral, that dance. I do on TikTok. Mark my words. Did you? I joined the dance in one. I was like, OK, I'm going to because they had such a short time to prep it and we had a very

short time to shoot it. And I was like, okay, I promise you all, I'll jump in and do a dance with you. And I did that and that was so embarrassing. So they all got their revenge. I have to say when I was sitting in the living room, I kind of wanted to get up and do it. I'm going to

learn that dance. It's wonderful, those opening credits. Family, suspense, tragedy is in this and also in a lot of the films and series that you do. Is there something that kind of draws you back to those themes? Family, absolutely. I think ever since I was at film school, I was fascinated by family. And I think family defines us. You know, both if you're close to your family or you've chosen not to be close to your family, it's still very much your identity. And it's always struck me as something which is so character, yeah, defining. Even if you try and leave it behind, it still defines you.

Yes, it's very much part of you, even if you try leaving it behind. Is there a particular message you want people to take away from this series? Well, I emphasize this wasn't homework, but I do want to say that the series sort of suggests that you think that if you're entitled, the rules does not apply to you. And the series also somewhat shows that that's not true. And I kind of enjoy that. It's such a current theme. We hear about it all the time, you know, in news stories. Yes.

About what people can get away with or not get away with, depending on status and power. That was sort of what drew me to it a little bit. The fact that there is a sense that if you are wealthy enough, if you're privileged enough, if you have enough connections, then the rules don't apply to you. And I detest that. I detest that sentiment. And I think playing around with that and having fun with that was incredibly satisfying.

The spirit of Nantucket that we often hear about, you know, just off Cape Cod, and I know it was filmed some Nantucket and other surrounding areas. Was it difficult to capture that, particularly if you're someone who's not from that part of the world? Alan Hildebrand's books have so much of that texture.

And I actually only read the book two weeks before we started filming, and it was like a shot. It was like an injection of inspiration in that sense. So no, I didn't feel it was hard to capture. We had people who really know that world and know the wealthy world and know the difference between this cup or the other as advisors. But I enjoy immersing myself in different worlds. And I kind of want to get to know them. It's like, you know, part of the quality of doing what I'm doing is I get to learn so much about other worlds than my own all the time. And it is so incredibly interesting and rewarding. You mentioned from film school, really, that you were interested in the topic of family. And what drew you to film directing? Was that something always in your mind as a young girl? No, I studied architecture. It came to me quite late. Oh, architecture first.

And then I became interested in set design. And I became interested in the characters moving around within the buildings I was designing. And I was like, that's what I need to do. So you made the leap? I did. And haven't looked back? No, never. There's so few female film directors still being recognized compared to men.

And I'm just wondering how you've seen that trajectory since you were a young woman. Look, it's gotten better, for sure. There are more female directors in, you know, there are more female directors at festivals, there are more female directors at Oscars, but it's still nowhere where it needs to be. And I still worry that young women entering this world feel, for example, they have to choose between having children, having a family and having a career where you have to be on set at 5 a.m., which is not entirely family friendly. And I always kind of I've got two grown up kids that I'm very close to. And I always want to tell young women it is possible.

It is possible. You've got to make choices. Like? You've got to embrace the fact that you can't be perfect in all manner of the word. You might not be able to bake their own rolls for the school meetings. You know, I've had a lot of things where I've kind of felt, OK, I'm not, I'm looked upon, I'm not entirely satisfying the expectations. But you've got to face that, you've got to face that there are certain expectations you won't be able to accommodate. But it's possible to do it, it just takes real determination. And also, somewhat allowing

yourself to enjoy the excitement of doing something which is as interesting as making film and television. That's so interesting. So good enough mothering. But I was wondering how much of your attitude to being able to be this incredibly successful film director, I just want to let people know you've an Oscar, an Emmy, a Golden Globe, European Film Award. First woman to have that collection. Doing that and being a mother and thinking I can do this. How much of that is because you're Danish? Because, you know, Denmark was the first place I went to that I saw men out for a beer with the baby strapped to their chest. And then they put the babies in the box in front of the bike and they cycled home.

Nary a woman inside. And I was like, I have come to the future. Oh, for sure. Denmark is a much more egalitarian society. And that there is no doubt that that makes it easier. But I do want to say that when I finished film school, I spoke to a hugely successful male producer. And I'd just gotten pregnant, like very soon after film school. And I told this producer that I was pregnant, and he said, you're finished, you're done.

Don't, I mean, you'll never ever get to do anything. So it was, however egalitarian Denmark was, it was still, it was still a bit of a struggle. So I don't think that nothing comes for free. So I don't think it's Denmark as much as do not let the rest of the world define you. And in particular, do not let the male-dominated world define you. So that is good advice for other female directors that are trying to follow in your footsteps. Or maybe not just directors. I mean, in general, young women who want to create a career

and are concerned about that. Yes. Because male society infuses us with an anxiousness about roles we have to fulfill. And I think it's about us defining those roles as opposed to being defined by the other sex. Anything next for you? Anything in your sights? I mean, we literally mixed episode six a few weeks ago.

I mean, so I haven't had time. I've got like a bunch of things I've got to read. But as of now, I'm still sort of recovering and I'm enjoying. I'm, we're premiering. I'm hoping people are going to like it. Susanna Beer, their award-winning film director and the perfect couple is on Netflix from Thursday.

I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, I've not won,

but two Paralympic champions for you next. They're just fresh off the podium. Not only are the Team GB paratriathletes, Lauren Steadman and Clare Cashmore fierce rivals, they're also friends and even went to the same school. Yesterday, Lauren won bronze and Clare silver in the paratriathlon category

PTS5. Both women have a missing forearm. And I caught up with Lauren and Clare just before we came on air and started by asking Clare, just how is she feeling? I feel pretty awful to be fair. My body hurts a lot, I think. Riding over those cobbles, the beating you took. Yeah, it's definitely, I'm definitely in a lot of pain this morning.

So what is it, ice baths? How do you go about a bit of recovery now? Well, I didn't, I definitely didn't do any recovery yesterday. There was no warm down taking place. I think that that's probably the issue. But yeah, I'm going to go back and have an ice bath, I think, today. And just some sleep. I didn't sleep at all. So I am very tired's probably the issue. But yeah, I'm going to go back and have an ice bath, I think, today and just some sleep. I didn't sleep at all. So I am very tired.

That's incredible. And was it no sleep because you were celebrating? A bit of celebrating. And then I think the caffeine was just and just the adrenaline, you know, there's so much expectation going into this. And then suddenly it's that relief and you just feel you just feel on a bit of a I don't know. It's a really weird state of mind that you've got after after the race. So generally you don't sleep very well. And even with the little bit of sleep, though, that you may have got, it must be pretty amazing when you first wake up and go, ah, that just happened. Yeah, well, yeah, my definitely my alarm went off and I was like, whoa, whoa okay we're going straight to media 7 30 in the morning I need to get my brain into gear so apologies if it if I you know say anything we're here for it all let me turn to Lauren how about you how are the legs how's the head

yeah no I I didn't go out and have any drinks I feel probably a little bit better and I've had a few croissants this morning so in very French fashion um so no I feel great um I think just going on what Claire said like the expectation of just being at a Paralympics with such a crowd and just wanting to do your very best um the moment that you cross that line uh is a sense of relief like you've you've done what you trained for. You're proud of it. So, yeah, celebrating time and, yeah, feeling pretty happy. Well, let's talk about your road to this, though, because I was reading an article just from July before the Paralympics.

And you said you didn't feel ready because you've been suffering from long COVID. Tell us a little bit about that particular journey. Yeah, it's been an exceptionally tough year. We came back from a race out in Abu Dhabi and I got struck with COVID and I've never had a response like this before, but it pretty much took me down and attacked my central nervous system. So six months ago, I couldn't sort of run 5k without being at 180 heart rate and in bed for the day after so I think going into this Games and you learn so much as an athlete throughout your whole career in that my expectations had to shift and I really was proud yesterday when I crossed the line because I really wasn't sure if I would be on that podium or not and I just say I'm super proud to bring

back another medal for Paralympics GB. Yeah, it was really emotional. I did see that saying you celebrate that bronze as much as gold from Tokyo. But I'm just wondering, how did you adjust those expectations for somebody who's been pushing for so long? I'm just thinking mentally, what does that take? It took absolutely everything uh but i think i had a fellow teammate of ours george peasgood actually it's not these games um had a very terrible accident and i spoke with george about this and it's managing um expectations perceptions and i still had the ability to go and do my best it may not have been a gold medal winning performance, but I also, when I was really ill in bed,

I was sort of saying, well, it's still my body and I need to look after myself. I am more than just being an athlete and I'll just take what I can, do my very best. And yesterday I was, I just didn't want to let anybody down. I didn't want to disappoint anybody. And I just wanted to cross the line

having given a performance that I would be truly happy with in my heart. And I felt that yesterday. Yeah, that was all I was looking for yesterday. Well, congratulations on that. I mean, that's quite something though, isn't it? To imagine you finding difficulty with the 5k, for example, and what you achieved yesterday.

Claire, Lauren has always called you her mentor um how fierce is the rivalry let's get down to brass tacks oh yeah it's super fierce you know we're sat in this room together on opposite sides now you know lauren and i have known each other since well she was a very little girl and we we went to school together um so i was always the older one probably bossing her around, telling her what to do. Nothing has changed. Exactly.

But yeah, so we raced each other as swimmers and then to go into the triathlon world and obviously she moved over first and then she definitely helped me with a lot of advice when I first moved into the sport. So yeah, it's great to be able to push the boundaries together.

I think both of us are very passionate about getting more young girls involved in disability sport. And, you know, it's something that we both want to want to do more of. And I think that's great that we can fly the flag for British triathlon and hopefully inspire the next generation of young little Laurence and Claire's. And does the rivalry spur you on? Absolutely. Yeah, I think that you on? Absolutely, yeah. I think that's why we do it. You know, you don't want an easy race. And particularly, you know, Grace Norman,

the three of us together have been battling it out for the last few years. And it's kind of who will get on the podium on that day. I should say, sorry, forgive me for interrupting you, but I should say just for our listeners that Grace Norman is the US athlete. She won gold. But this podium of three can be various configurations

when it comes to the three of you. Yeah, definitely. And yesterday was a British sandwich. But no, it's great. I think, you know, we're rivals on the start line, but then we're friends at the end. And that's the way you kind of want it. It doesn't make you, keeps you on your toes for sure.

And day in, day out, that's kind of what keeps us going. And speaking about Grace Norman, the US athlete, Lauren, just to keep it all in the family, you were a bridesmaid at her wedding. Yeah, she, I think after what we went through in tokyo we got really close and yeah she just said um you know we exchanged lots of messages post games and it was really special went out to train with her and she was like actually i'd really love it if you'd come to um my wedding and i remember the first time i ever saw Grace in 2014, she'd come forth and I turned to my dad and I'd said,

she's coming for me. And rightly so she did. But yeah, so I've known her for a really long time. And I, yeah, her and her coach as well were fantastic this year, you know, going down with COVID, like even her coach, you know, sent me guidance, sent me, you know, what I needed to get back up there. So I think I just super proud like we were sat on the pontoon yesterday all of all of the girls were raised Camille as well the Canadian and I think

we talk about rivalry and friendship but we were all sat there and we're just like appreciative of we have the Eiffel Tower there we have the Pont Alexander Bridge behind us what a backdrop to go and showcase just how great our category is and how competitive it is um why did you make the move this to both of you but let me begin with you lauren uh moving sports over to triathlon from swimming um i was a very good swimmer but i never seemed to get over that last hurdle um i finished fifth and i've always been proud of my fifth place at London and what was London it was incredible uh with you know everyone in the aquatic center though I've never had a roar as large as that um but I think for me switching over I was a much better swim bike and run athlete than I was just the swimmer um and I just to be honest triathlon is a sport where you can swim

anywhere you can ride anywhere you can do it with, you can do it with family, you can do it with friends. Like the amount of time my mum's got her e-bike out and we've just been riding around. Like I absolutely love it. It's a participation sport. And so for me, that makes it super special. And you, Claire? Yeah, probably very similar to Lauren, actually. The variety of triathlon is incredible. You know, from following a black line and counting tiles every day two times a day to suddenly being able to see the world and speak to people which is definitely

something I like to do um but no I I got a little bit stagnant in swimming um I kind of started to lose the love for sport but I knew triathlon was always something I wanted to do I'd run as a kid and I was like one day I'd love to do it and then the fact that it came in in Rio I was like right I'll let there be one cycle. They can figure all the things out. And then after that, I'm moving into that sport. So, yeah, after Rio, I joined the world of triathlon. And also my partner Dave Ellis is in it as well.

So to be able to travel the world with him and to watch him win gold medal yesterday was just so, so special. We need to tip our hat to him as well congratulations um but you know at the finish line is there any athlete that is more exhausted than a triathlete yeah well we're going to be biased aren't we we're going to say absolutely triathlon is the hardest sport but no i bet a lot of other people to be fair i used to find swimming 100 breaststroke pretty pretty horrific that you know you'd be sick regularly after the race so I think all sports are hard I think physically maybe obviously the three sports and it's you know going for an hour to an hour and 15 sometimes so physically maybe the most exhausted but the

mental I don't know alignment you have as an athlete across any sport. Actually, the day before our race, I sat there thinking, how many people are sat here right now wanting their best performance in this whole village? There's just thousands of people with nervous energy. So I think every athlete would be mentally exhausted regardless of the sport. We had Rachel Latham on the programme last week. She gave us a heads-up preview to the rivalry

and to you two as being two to watch. But she very much talked about, you know, the day of the race, mentally getting yourself in that space to win. Anything you do in particular, Claire? To be honest, it was a bit weird this time because obviously we were expecting

to race the day before. So we woke up the morning of what was meant to be our race with being told that actually it was being postponed. So you're kind of in that state of mind the day before you didn't sleep well at all. And then suddenly it was like, right, OK, change the next day. But yeah, very much. I quite like to be chilled. I like to be myself. I'm chatting away. Probably my only routine is eating rice. And yeah, it's really exciting, isn't it? I feel like I should give a much better answer than this.

Can I just note that there was a little rice trail all the way from the Paralympic village to the triathlon venue yesterday. I kept dropping it. I was not doing well with that rice. I think it was the nerves and the adrenaline, the shaky hand. It's kind of got a Hansel and Gretel vibe doesn't it? Like a Paralympian Hansel and Gretel vibe. But it was because the water was too dirty in the

Seine, right, to swim in. That it was postponed or whatever. Unfortunately there's been quite a bit of rain in Paris and it just tipped it over the edge. So yeah, but thankfully all the levels had come back down by yesterday so we were ready for action. So, Lauren, not rice. That's not your thing. What is to get in the zone?

Definitely not rice. Boiled eggs. Oh, yeah, that was a few years back. I forgot my lunch and then had to eat boiled eggs and Claire was beside herself. No, for me, I love my coffee in the mornings. I had some porridge yesterday. And actually, we're still sat in our flat because obviously Mel Nichols went off super early doors and a couple of our other guys went off. So I got to actually watch some of the racing from the village, which was quite nice to see how it was all working, the dynamics. And then, yeah, just super, super chill.

I think when you get to the experience that me and Claire have with the amount of games, you kind of know yourself well enough to actually relax into the moment you're still you're still nervous but I think also you know how to handle that and the expectations and so yeah being a golden oldies but also I think it's it's so much about enjoying it I think I've definitely learned from my past of kind of just letting the whole experience pass you by and Lauren probably was so same for her first games and you kind of get to the stage where you're like do you know what that we don't know how many more times we're going to be able to compete at the Paralympic

Games it is so incredibly special let's actually enjoy this rather than you know stressing and beating yourself up about you know whatever performance it is and just going out there and actually soaking absolutely everything up we are very much enjoying watching you but what about this you know you have said that this could be your last summer games do you want to talk me a little bit through that or what you're thinking about what's next uh yeah it's it's just coming from inside me and i think it's very much my last games and actually yesterday um I knew that I was going to get the bronze and it was a long way back till fourth so I slowed up and thought to myself I'm

pretty sure this is the last I'm going to run down here and decided to give back to some of the fans that were there and sort of I don't know do the high fives and stuff and I was super special for me um I've just I've got other things that I would like to achieve now outside the world of sport. Um, and that has been the way since I got my, my gold medal in Tokyo, I just felt a sense of achievement. So I need to get back to my PhD. Now I really want to make a second career that's just as worthy as what this first career has been. So yeah, I think just maybe a change in priorities. What is the PhD in? Mental health and our Olympians and Paralympians.

So after the three years I've had post games and being unsure of who I am, what I stand for and anything to do with life outside of sport. And just in general, we've spoken about the heightened environment that we have to get in in order to perform. Like I think that I've learned now what I need to do and probably so as Claire but when you're younger that kind of program or mentorship isn't quite in place yet for our younger athletes so yeah try and create some sort of research that will actually make a difference to the

younger generations coming through Lauren Steadman Cashmore, thank you both so much. Thank you. Now, just before I move on to my next guest, I want to clarify Sir Martin Oliver's comments on the Today programme this morning about his contact with Professor Julia Waters, who we were speaking to earlier. She's the sister of headteacher Ruth Perry. The chief inspector of Ofsted

said he had met with Professor Waters in January this year and then went on to say Professor Waters has had other conversations with me and brought other headteachers in to meet me and we have spoken and had exchanges. But next to a new book, a tome, which argues that motherhood is political and that matters whether you have had children or not. The book is called Mother State, a political history of motherhood. The author is Helen Sharman. She is here in studio with me

and she reimagines the history of modern Britain from women's liberation in the 1970s to the austerity of the 2010s through the figure and the labour of the mother. Welcome to Women's Hour, Helen. Hello, thank you for having me. So let me start with the title Mother State and your premise that motherhood is inherently a political state. Maybe explain that first and then we'll move on. Yes, so motherhood is political, as you say, that's the argument of the book. And that's where the title comes in. Mother State, for me, state in that title has three definitions. And they're interwoven, of course. And the first is the state of being a mother. So we might think of that as a physical state, including pregnancy and birth, but not only.

And also, you know, the daily labor, the work of mothering. And then the second definition of state is the relationship between these mothers having these daily experiences and the British state itself. So the support that they're given, but also the ways they're politicized, the uses that the idea of the mother is put to. And then the third and final definition of state in that little trinity there is the welfare state specifically as something that was conceived of originally as maternal, as something that had a nurturing and caring responsibility for its citizens. Who do you want to read this book? Well, I want as many people as possible to read this book.

But you know, when I looked at the title and even when I began reading it, I guess my biases came out because I expected you to be a mother of children. You are not, but you do think that everyone can mother whether or not they have had children. Yes, definitely. And I want mothers to read this book. Of course I do. But I don't just want mothers to read this book because I think, you know,

mothering as a political concept means that it's something that everyone has a responsibility to consider, to think about, and to try in our own ways to support the work of mothering wherever that's happening. So what do you think mothering is? I think mothering is caring for and raising children. I don't think, you know, I don't want to exclude fathers, I don't want to exclude any other form of parenting. But I think, you know,

if you think that the labour and the care that you're providing for children is mothering, if you feel that you yourself are a mother, and that's the kind of relationship that you're providing for children is mothering if you feel that you yourself are a mother and that's the kind of relationship that you have, then I think, you know, the tasks, the repeated actions of caring can be the actions of mothering. It has numerous examples, your book, of mothers organising themselves within the state.

Lesbian squats in the 70s and 80s, anti-nuclear protesters in the UK also in the 80s, the mining families on strike in the mid-80s, and talking about alternative support networks. But we don't hear so much about those sort of networks now. Are you against the status quo or the way that it is at the moment? I would certainly say that the maternal state, if we want to think of it in that way, is at the very least in crisis in the present moment. I think the way things are

for mothers and for children in this country, I think, particularly due to austerity and its ongoing legacies, is pretty dire. The kind of forms of support, the kind of social services, public services are, you know, at breaking point. There's a housing crisis, which impacts how and where we mother, whether we can decide to have children is very much impacted by where we live, whether we have enough money, all these things. So I think at the moment, I would say I have serious concerns about the status quo and the way things are. And this is something that your listeners will be intimately familiar with. I mean, in the news recently, we've had all of these stories about the crisis in maternity care, you know, birth trauma. There's the ongoing discussion about the two child benefit cap. The NHS, of course, is really, really suffering and has been for decades. I think we don't at the moment have a social settlement that allows people to mother in the most supported way. It's interesting you mentioned the birth trauma there. I saw as part of the research for this book, you've been volunteering as a birth companion with a charity

which provides pre- and postnatal support to pregnant women who would otherwise be birthing alone. And you've witnessed six births. How did that inform the book? So I've supported, I think I've actually supported seven, but you're not always at the birth because you're on call as a voluntary birth partner. But it absolutely was so central to the way I was thinking about mothering. It's an organization based in Glasgow called Amma Birth Companions. And they train up voluntary birth partners and postnatal companions.

So the kind of training that you get alone is really amazing. And what do you think changed by witnessing those births? Well, the first birth that I was present for, I mean, apart from my own birth, which I can't remember, it was a completely life-altering experience,

not least because I felt so privileged to have been trusted enough to be there in that moment and to offer the kind of support that I could. And, you know, it's the moment that someone becomes a someone. It's the moment that someone becomes a someone. You know, it's the moment that someone emerges into the world. And, you know, emotionally and intellectually, that's very, very moving. So, yeah, I think I suppose it was in a way I felt like I was putting my money where my mouth was a bit and that I'd spent all these years researching mothering and motherhood and arguing for the necessity of taking responsibility for it,

whether or not you have a child. And that felt like something I could actually do that was helpful. And concrete. I need to talk about Margaret Thatcher for a couple of moments. She looms very large in your book and you link her directly to the austerity and different ways of politicisation of motherhood that we see. What would you call her legacy when it comes to motherhood? So when it comes to motherhood, I think she's intimately linked to motherhood in the kind of national imaginary, you know, she was against the supportive state. And she was against society in

her own words. And she set that up in opposition to the traditional family. And she used her sort of performance as a national housewife and national mother to sort of excuse, I think, in some ways, or certainly for her supporters, the fact that her don't look to somebody else to solve the problems that Margaret Thatcher and those around her were a society as each individual was. And some would say, you know, there was finally a woman who was in power that broke gender stereotypes, that she had a marriage we could call off equals looking back in it. And also postmenopausal woman who was actually visible in society. Do you not think those things about her could have, in some ways, bolstered motherhood? I think they bolstered a very specific conception of it, you know, conception, an appropriate word there. But I think she was, a conservative ideal of mothering was what she was advocating whilst sort of subverting it herself. And I think that was, again, something that she did, you know, successfully, which was that she was pushing

this idea that mothers and women's kind of duty was to remain in the home and to care for children. She often said that that was the most important work that a woman could do whilst she was running the country. So I think there's a kind of hypocrisy to some extent in the way that that was the most important work that a woman could do whilst she was running the country. So I think there's a kind of hypocrisy to some extent in the way that she was advocating for something that she herself wasn't doing. And I think she played that quite masterfully, and that she kind of occupied mothering as a concept during the 80s. Certainly, it was quite hard to resist her as a feminist in lots of ways during that period.

Yes, and of course, as we know, she has very staunch supporters that would disagree with your characterisation. Of course, Sir Keir Starmer, he was taking down her portrait. I mean, she looms large in day-to-day life in the UK as it continues. But you have been called perhaps

of having utopian idealism for what you're looking for, this, you know, liberated version of mothering that the mother or the woman, not that all the burden is placed upon her to raise this child

to then perhaps feed a capitalist system. I'm paraphrasing your book. But are you, do you think it's a utopian? Do you think the things you talk about could actually happen? I mean, on the one hand, I absolutely do think it's utopian. And I think, you know, if the project of the book is to reframe motherhood as a collective idea,

I know we've got a long way to go. Political change, structural change doesn't happen overnight. But in another sense, I hope that people who read the book, even if it just changes the way they think about their neighbor who's just had a baby, helping their neighbor carry the buggy up the stairs, checking in with their colleague who's just had twins, those things are changes too, right? And hopefully those are less utopian and more

immediately possible. And then we can work on the revolution in the meantime. Helen Sharman, author of the book Mother State. It's out now. It's published by Anne Lane. Thank you so much for coming into our studio. Tomorrow I have the actor Gemma Arthit and that is at 10am

and she'll be talking about her TV series Funny Woman about the Blackpool beauty queen who becomes a comedy star in the male dominated sitcom industry of the 1960s and we also want to hear about the thousands of women suing an implant manufacturer over links with a rare

cancer. Join me then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm India Rackerson, and I want to tell you a story. It's the story of you. In our series, Child, from BBC Radio 4, I'm going to be exploring how a foetus develops and is influenced by the world from the very get-go. Then, in the middle of the series,

we take a deep look at the mechanics and politics of birth, turning a light on our struggling maternity services and exploring how the impact of birth on a mother affects us all. Then we're going to look at the incredible feat of human growth and learning in the first 12 months of life. Whatever shape the journey takes, this is a story that helps us know our world. Listen on BBC Sounds. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.