Woman's Hour - Rwanda genocide, Bowie's hairdresser, womanhood during Ramadan

Episode Date: April 5, 2024

Ahead of the 30th anniversary of the Rwanda genocide on Sunday, April 7th, BBC journalist Victoria Uwonkunda returns to the counry for the first time after fleeing the genocide as a child in 1994, to find out how the country, and its people, are healing.Lots of our favourite pop - or rock - stars have had iconic looks to go along with their music. Suzi Ronson is the woman behind a hairstyle many of us will recognise - the red spiky hair of Ziggy Stardust, a character and onstage persona created by David Bowie. Her new memoir, Me and Mr Jones: My Life with David Bowie and the Spiders from Mars, talks about her time with the band during the 70s and meeting her late husband, guitarist Mick Ronson.It’s almost the end of Ramadan 2024 – the month of fasting observed by Muslims all over the world. But what’s it like to be a modern woman, potentially on your period, and still going through Ramadan? Anita speaks with Mehreen Baig from the podcast Not Even Water and Hodo Ibrahim, co-host of The Oversharers podcast, on the challenges and advantages of being a Muslim woman in Ramadan.You'll likely see the price of getting your nails done go up as of Monday, on what's being called the National Nail Tech Price Increase Day. While you might be paying around £40 to get your nails done, your nail technician would only take home around £7 an hour, once you take away the costs of things like tools and products. Amy Guy is the founder of Nail Tech Org and Rochelle Anthony owns her own salon, and they talk about what the price rise means to them.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Cecelia Armstrong

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Today, hair. Iconic hairstyles. Your own standout haircut, the barnet you'll never forget, or indeed you wish you could forget. How do you feel about your hair now? What a haircut or no haircut means to you? The reason I ask is because I'm going to be joined by Susie Ronson, who as a young

hairdresser in Beckenham in the late 60s, got the opportunity to give David Bowie a haircut and colour, or rather the haircut of Ziggy Stardust. I mean, this haircut was a game changer for him, but also led to Susie getting a job with the band and her life changing overnight pretty much. But I don't need to give you the details because she will be here to tell her story herself. I would, however, like to know about the style, the haircut that defined or defines you. I've spoken a lot on my own social media about my own hair journey. As a young lass, I had very long hair down to my bottom, but I always loved short hair.

But I was always told that long hair was my beauty. So every time I now cut it short, it feels like an act of defiance which suits my personality. Also, I was desperate for purple hair, but could only ever get purple tops of my ears. But what about you? Your wild, wacky or simple hair stories? Please send them in to me the usual way. The text number is 84844. Or you can WhatsApp me or voice note me using the number 03700 100444. You can also email the programme by going to our website. And if you do feel like sending us a photograph via our WhatsApp,

you never know, you may end up on our own social media, on the Women's Hour social media, if we get some real corkers, that is. So your haircut stories, please. Text number 08404844 and the WhatsApp number once again 03700100444. Also on the programme, we talk periods during Ramadan with podcasters Mehreen Baig and Hortha Ibrahim and Nail Technicians Unite. We're going to discuss the solidarity for financial support

for nail technicians. From Monday, manicurists around the country are raising their prices. But of course, we would like to hear from you throughout the programme, not just about your haircuts, but anything you want to share with us about what you may hear on the show. That text number, once again, 84844. But first, Sunday marks the 30th anniversary of the Rwandan genocide, when in just 100 days in 1994, about 800,000 people were killed by ethnic Hutu extremists. The UN estimates around 250,000 women were raped during the genocide and thousands were kept as sex slaves. Ahead of this anniversary, BBC journalist Victoria Uwahunda made the journey back to Rwanda where she grew up for the first

time since she and her family were forced to flee the violence when she was only 12 years old. Victoria speaks with people who survived the horrific violence and finds out how the country and its people are healing and she joins me now in the studio to tell me all about the documentary she's made. Welcome to the programme Victoria. I listened to it last night, there's a lot to get into. It's a remarkable programme. So well done on it in context as this. So the divisions that led to 1994 genocide were not something that was new. We had lived for so long, we Rwandans, we had lived for so long with these divisions, and they went on ethnic lines. So we have three main ethnic groups in Rwanda. You have the Hutu, who are the majority, you have Tutsi, and then you have a group that really is spoken about that completely seems to have been forgotten in all of what's happened,

the Twa. So those three groups that had lived together for so long, for many years. But then after the First World War, the European countries are now looking to places to go to, places to conquer, and they were dividing among themselves. Rwanda happened to fall under the Belgians. So the Belgians come to Rwanda. They're looking for a people whom they said would be the leaders, the local leaders who can rule while the Belgians are back in Belgium, but they needed a people that they could trust. And how they did was that they came in and they were looking for people who resembled them. So if you imagine a Western look, you have a certain way your nose is, your cheekbones, your forehead, your height.

That was also something that was being used. And at the time when they came, there was one particular group that looked for what they were looking for, and that was what they then just came in, and those were the Tutsi. Then they also introduced these identity cards, and in the identity cards you have your ethnicity, and now you have people who have been now divided,

and you have people who have been given more power. Now you have a mon who've been now divided and you have people who've been given more power. Now you have a monarchy who are in charge. And so the resentment then started festering. So the first waves of violence that we see in Rwanda is in 1959. And the Hutus revolt. And then they started attacking the Tutsis. And we see tons, tens of thousands of people killed in 1959. Those who survived, they left the country, went into exile

in neighboring countries, including Tanzania, Burundi, and in Uganda. And those people who went to Uganda, there were children there and they left with their parents. Now they're grownups. Come 1990, they formed a rebel group. They wanted to come back home by any means. And the first means were to come in by force. So they invade Rwanda, but they are repelled by the then government, which was led by Ahutu. But there are continued fightings around. There are skirmishes. We have a peace talk in Tanzania, many peace talks, actually.

And then 1993, a peace deal is agreed between the exiled group, the Rwandan Patriotic Front, and the then government led by President Juvenal Habia Rimana. So it was after the latest talks, he flew to Tanzania, Arusha, and he was on the plane coming back with the President of Burundi, 6th of April 1994. The plane is shot down. And that is what most people say is the spark, the ignition of the 1994 genocide. And people talk about the attack happening and taking place in just 100 days. How was it orchestrated?

It had been festering along since the 1990 attack. You started hearing certain things on the radio, especially. So it was being broadcast by some extremist radio stations. And words and language that was used at the time was to dehumanise. So you hear loads of words like yin yin, which is cockroach. We need to finish them off, them being the Tutsis. And they kept repeating that. If you don't finish them off, they will come back because we saw what happened. They left in 1959, they're coming back in 90. It might happen again if we don't finish them off.

And you were only 12 years old. This is when you left. But what do you remember of the rising tensions? What were you aware of before you actually, the violence began? There wasn't really much talk about that because the thing that shocks most people is, as you mentioned, I need 100 days. It's a lot of people to kill in such a short time. But for us, as children, you never really thought about it. But the first time that I truly felt like I was in a place

or in a space that wasn't quote-unquote normal, that we had these divisions, was when I was in the fourth grade. So that was 1990. I would have been about nine. And one morning we come into class and we are being told, if you're a Hutu, stand on that side. If you're a Tutsi, stand on this side.

If you're a Twa, stand on this side. And just shock and bewilderment in all our faces. What's going on? We don't know what we are. And the teacher said, calmly, just go home after lunch. Come back and please ask your parents. Now, you don't, as a parent, I don't even remember what they told me to go back and say. But I remember the first thing was, but why? What has this got to do with what you are being taught in class? But, you know, we came back and it was just like, but does it change who we are?

Does it change who sits next to me? Does it change who is my friend? But you could already tell, but of course it came after 1990. So whether it had come from up above or somebody was trying to make a list or anything, we will never know. But that was the first time that I realised, hang on. And there was a legal document for every person in Rwanda saying exactly what tribe you belong to these ID cards yeah um so what happened

to you and your family when when did you what do you remember and when did you decide your family decide that it was time to leave so the moment that the plane is shot down gunfire bombs then it's just it's it's a blown out war but at that time we just don't think oh we might not what we are going to die or we are going to have to flee we have we're going to have to move but then in the morning of the 7th we just decide okay listen we don't know what's going to happen in our neighborhood but people always feel safety in numbers so if we go to a friend's house, maybe their neighborhood, and people had already started calling each other back in the days when you used to have phones in the house, not mobiles, but they were calling each other and say, you know,

my neighborhood is safe or my neighborhood is unsafe. Can I come to you? So we're moving place to place for the first week. And then on the 12th of April, we ran out of places to go. We ran out of places to feel safe. And the decision was made by the parents, okay, let's all get out of Kigali. So I remember a day that was, it felt endless because it was so many people leaving at the same time. Everybody felt, it felt like everybody was leaving Kigali. People on foot, people on bikes, people, you will see children on the backs of their mothers, their mattresses, belongings on their heads because it was just like an exodus. And how did you feel? I was, you know, I've been thinking about that day. I felt calm, but I didn't know what calm was. But I think I will say I was quiet because we didn't know what was happening. Yeah, I was going to say, did you understand?

Did you understand what was actually happening? No, we were just, we were leaving. What we understood then was we had been told we are seeking shelter, we are seeking refuge and safety because we didn't have any other place to be in Kigali, so we are all moving. But then you will get to people as people are moving, so many of them, and they'll start, you know, if you roll down your window, you start hearing

people say, be careful. We've just heard that down the road, there are roadblocks. And you just think, oh, okay. The roadblocks had been set up to literally, as you mentioned, the ID cards. If you had your ID card on you, open it up and it said a certain ethnicity, that was it for you. Or the people who didn't have their ID cards because most people discarded them. Once you start hearing that they're checking for ID cards, again, we go back to the looks of people.

If you're a tall person, if you had a certain length of nose, if your forehead was... People are even looking at people's gums. Like if it's a certain colour, that could be literally decisive of you live or you die. And how many people in your family trying to escape at this point? We're in the car now with all my siblings. And I just don't understand how my mum did it because she was driving. And what struck me when I went back was she was the

same age at that time that I am now. And I do not know where she got it from, but she was calm. She was collected, whether she hid it well, but she must have been completely out of her mind because she's in a car with all her children. We are six of all ages. And because we had been moving with family and friends, we are in the car with other people. So, so much responsibility on her shoulders. It's unimaginable. I mean, I'm sensing fear in my own guts. And, you know, it's completely unimaginable. So, what took you back 30 years later to make this?

And it's the first time you've been back. Yeah, it's the first time. To make this documentary. I just felt that it needed to be told because there are so many people now. It's 30 years. So many people of my generation who need to look back, you know, remember our childhood and the good and the bad because there's definitely so much bad. But also for the younger generations, I've got nieces and nephews now who are at the age where they just want to know, where do my family come from? What is my legacy? And that was part of me wanting to

do it, but also to tell the world that, you know, this happened. And there are so many people who were alive at the time who do not remember it. But especially for the younger generation, you think if you're 25 now, you probably are hearing this story for the first time. If you're 15, it's a completely new world for you. And we are seeing so many conflicts in the world at the moment. And you just think, oh, this is not new. It was happening. And as we saw, it happened again in the Second World War.

And there are so many of these conflicts and events that happened that you just feel like you have to revisit. What was it like that first half an hour? The plane doors open, you step out, you're on Kigali soil. Yeah, let me tell you something. I had never set foot at the airport, outside, inside the airport itself, the grounds. I had been at the airport saying goodbye to family, friends who were flying somewhere, but I'd never flown from it.

I'd never seen my birth city Kigali from above. But it's known for being foggy, so as we were coming above, I was really annoyed. It's like, you are obstructing my view, you know. But landing down and just the humidity, the smell, the sounds. It's it's just I fell home. But I was also saddened for everything that I'd lost because I'm coming back to where I was born. But I didn't leave by choice.

And those, you know, those moments you just think to yourself, why? Why? Why all this senseless killing? Why did we have to get to this point of pain and trauma? But it was a good sense to be home, to hear people talk your language, which I hadn't actually realised. I had not had that chance in 30 years to be in a country, in a place where everybody speaks the same language as you. And it's such a wonderful

feeling. And then you did arrive and you spent five days interviewing people. And as we know, the violence was horrific. 800,000 people died. And the UN estimates that around 250,000 women were raped during the genocide. Thousands of Tutsi women also taken away to be kept as sex slaves. Did women bear the brunt of the violence? Oh, absolutely. It's just, it's horrific. And also not even in that moment, because that is a trauma that is going to be intergenerational. Women are the ones who are, you are the breadwinner most,

if you're in a rural place, you are the one who is feeding the family. You're the one who is making sure that you have, you can stretch the money for school fees, for health care, for everything that your family needs. And having that done to you, there's the trauma that you cannot open up to anybody. And there is so much anger that you see seeping into the family life and the children. And you hear of children having the guilt because they feel like they cannot speak to their parents about that. After what took place, the Rwandan government pursued a policy of reconciliation and unity after the genocide. Tell us a bit about that. It's been a long work. It's been trying to just forget about the divisions, forget about these lines, about

ethnicity, about how we are all divided. Because the thing is, there is so much mixing, there's so much intermarriage that happens that you just feel, but who are you exactly killing? You're killing yourselves. So they have this policy called Ndumu Nyar Gwanda, basically meaning I am Rwandan, to try to make everybody know and think we are here together. We cannot stand to be divided because the divisions that we live through are the ones that saw our family and friends and everybody killed, everybody dying. And we all live with this trauma from then. But on the other side, you've got people who say, but hang on, I lost my family member. I am a Hutu. When will we ever talk about that? And you have those critics coming in. There are reports, tens of them from the human rights organizations who say there were thousands of Hutus who were killed by the random patriotic forces. When will they be remembered?

And you keep hearing that and people keep asking, is it truly reconciliation if people cannot be open? But it's a conversation that we need to keep having because part of the healing, part of it all is it's a process. It continues. Well, you talk a lot about um well people talk about forgiveness and before i listened to the documentary i was reading about what you were doing and i thought okay yes because we've talked a lot about forgiveness on woman's hour and how the act of being able to

forgive means that you can move on with your own life and the next generations can move on but then i listened to your program and that's when i really thought this is something else, because you have a man sitting next to another man who murdered his mother. Now, that must have been an incredibly intense conversation. Oh, it's everything that touches you as a human. You hear these stories and you think, when I was watching these two men, Evarist and Axis, and I'm looking in their eyes and I'm thinking, where do you get this strength? Where do you get the grace to be? So you extend a hand. And that was powerful for me to hear, to listen, to have that in my mind, to think, oh, maybe I should be giving more people, you know, more grace, more, just think of the things that we take for granted as the tiniest thing is going to annoy you for all, you know, all your, more, just think of the things that we take for granted as the tiniest

thing is going to annoy you for all, you know, all your day, all your week. And yet here are these two people sitting together, despite what they've been through, and they're forgiven, but they haven't forgotten, but they're forgiven. But then I was really astounded by another woman who you interviewed called Claudette. And I mean, it was just the idea that she could forgive when she was so, she was wounded, and they attempted to kill her so many times. And then we find out that she was only 13. Yeah, that really, you know, made me I had to pause at that point. Yeah, I, I was lost for words, because I was sitting next to her when she's telling or retelling all this trauma and her voice is breaking all along. And in my journalist's head, I'm thinking, Vic, remain objective, but just remember to ask her how old she was.

Because up until that point, she hadn't mentioned how old she was. And I couldn't look at her face and know how old she is now to kind of gauge. Just without even asking, she says, I was only 13. In the raw tape, there is a moment where nobody speaks. Literally, you could hear a pin drop. And that's when I literally was broken myself because I was only 12. So everything she's told up to that point and everything she's telling now again, I'm not seeing her as she said, I ran from this house to that house.

I had wound here, I had wound there. I'm seeing me. It could have easily been me. But yet she's sitting here telling her story and the strength and the grace that she extended. One of her attackers and he was in the room with us. It was quite powerful. He was in the room with you. He was.

He was quite powerful. He was in the room with you. He was. He was. Has there been a push from the Rwandan government to hold the perpetrators of rape accountable? They have. So they treated all the assaults, whether you killed somebody, whether you raped somebody, you maimed somebody. Everybody went. Who, if you were caught, you went through a system. So we have the gachacha system, court hearings, which are traditional court hearings, because there were so many perpetrators that the, as we know, you know, the Western way of knowing the courts, there were not going to be enough. that were set up because they realised that they had to process all these people. They had to hold them to account for what they did. And those ones were actually more powerful because you had,

it was community-based. It would be in your neighbourhood, in your local area, where you could come face-to-face with the people that you had wronged. I mean, it is really a remarkable documentary. And if you are interested, I urge you to listen to the full version of Victoria's Story and you can search for it for Rwanda 30 years on

wherever you find your podcast. But very quickly, I know you were out there for five days and you had your producer journalist head on and you were running around doing all these interviews

and I can see there's, you know, we're talking about it's a very intense environment in the studio and there's tears in your eyes. You've obviously had time to reflect. So how do you feel about your experience now? I found it cathartic, to be honest with you, Anita,

because I was able to make peace, quote-unquote, with, you know, what I'd lost, you know, what I'd left behind, and also realising that it will still forever be my home, but it is no longer my home because I did not get to grow up in there, did not get to fully immerse myself into what could have been. But it's still home. With all that comes with it, with the dark history, it is still my home. And the resilience that the Rwandan people continue to show today, whether you are inside or outside, is remarkable. Thank you very much for coming in to speak to me.

Thank you for having me. As I said, you can search for Rwanda 30 years on and you will find it there. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. 84844 is the number to text. Available now. different colours on my hair and during lockdown I grew it long. I'm 76 and my hair is now shiny plummy purple. Sounds gorgeous. I love it and have no idea what my real colour is. Probably very white.

Valerie in Essex says in 1983, the days of big hair, after a six hour session, six hours at the hairdresser to perm and highlight my shoulder length hair, it ended up so high that I couldn't fit in the car. Was it a mini? I had to recline the seat and open the sunroof. Stop it. To be able to drive home. I loved it. Still try to finger dry as much as possible.

Keep into my now grey hair. Keep them coming in. And as I said, if you want to send us your photos, please do. And we might put them up on our own WhatsApp. The reason I'm asking is because of my next guest, because lots of our favourite pop or rock stars have had iconic hair looks, Emma Bunton, Baby Spice with those pig

tails, Justin Bieber with the swept across hairstyle, my own favourite Annie Lennox with her short cropped blonde my next guest is the woman behind a hairstyle many of us will recognise the red spiky hair of Ziggy Stardust, a character and onstage persona created by David Bowie. Susie Ronson is the hairdresser who created that look with David. Well, she's now written a memoir, Me and Mr Jones, My Life with David Bowie and the Spiders from Mars, all about how her life changed after meeting David's mother and his then wife, Angie.

Her time with the band during the 70s and meeting her late husband, guitarist Mick Ronson. Susie, welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for having me on. I mean, you talk hair, everybody wants to get involved. Let's start with the haircut. Where did the inspiration for the Ziggy Stardust hairstyle come from? And how did you create it? Well, David, I met David.

I'd met his mother. I met his wife. I got invited to Haddon Hall, which was where they were living. And as I walked in, David was sitting in a bay window flipping through a magazine. And he had long blonde hair at the time. His wife, Angie Bowie, was discussing the merits of cutting his hair short because nobody had short

hair and I said such I said so I said well no one's got short hair nobody did it Beatles Rolling Stones and we'd come from the hippies in the 60s so short hair definitely wasn't in so he came over and showed me a photograph in a magazine of a girl with short red spiky hair and he said to me, can you do that? As I'm saying yes, I'm thinking to myself, that's a girl's hairstyle. And wasn't quite sure how I would do it. But I was confident.

You know, I thought he was a perfect person to have really short hair, tall, rock star thing, long white neck, great face. I mean, if I could pull it off, it would look really good. We cut it that night. The style was good, but it wouldn't stand up. It just kind of kept flopping to one side. He looked like a schoolboy and he didn't look too happy, you know, and I didn't feel too great about it either. But I said, listen, the second we get some colour in this, it's going to change the texture and it will stand up. I was praying I was right

and it worked well it did eventually yes eventually um now you say that you were just there uh in Haddon Hall but actually what's so charming about this story is how it begins which is you as a young girl working in this hair salon in Beckenham and how it was David Bowie's mum's hair that you were doing and then one day she brought her daughter-in-law in, David's wife. That's right. And she, you said, was this exotic, glamorous... She was American. That was number one. In 1971 in Beckenham, you didn't meet many Americans.

And she was tall and glamorous and she wore fabulous clothes. You didn't buy clothes like that in Beckenham either. So very unusual girl. I got a sense that, you know, you were craving, desperate for something different because she came in to get a haircut. And I think, you know, this story, you created your own destiny

because you... I did. I've been looking for something. I've been to Italy when I was 17 for six months. I've been to America when I was 20. I was looking for something. I did not want to live the life of my parents. And you got you something, didn't you? And I got my something, yes, I did.

Because you ran after her and said, because she wanted a haircut, there were no appointments, and you said, it's okay. And she said, well, come, I can do it. That's how I got to Haddon Hall, yes. And you had some help come up with looks for not just David. Tell us about the boys from Hull. Well, they were boys from Hull.

They weren't really like David and his friends. They were regular guys, which made me feel a bit more comfortable in actual fact. And we're talking about his backing band here, the Spiders from Mars. Yeah, they were just so... I think the most distinctive one out of the three was Trevor Boulder, the bass player.

He ended up with blue-black hair with spikes on top and he had those big silvery whiskers. But at first, I mean, Woody was asked to wear, the Woody the drummer was asked to wear a pink costume. And David said to him, it takes a real man to wear pink. And he did. And the makeup was another thing. They didn't want to wear makeup at first. And then it was like, oh, have you got me mascara? You know, they were in the dressing room putting on the makeup so it took them not that long to slip into those costumes and the makeup i love the contrast in the book between your home life and then you stepping into haddon

hall and all these characters and people that you would never have come across in your day-to-day exactly i thought i was on the moon the They're in a completely different world to me. You write about the first UK tour you accompanied them on, being in places like Bournemouth, Doncaster, all the glamorous places. Donny, Woman's Hour, I went to Donny a couple of weeks ago. And the kids outside who tried to replicate the haircut that you'd created. Some of them did a good job, but sometimes a 200-pound trucker with David Bowie hair

looks a little odd. A big hairy guy, you know, with his little red haircut. But bless them, they tried. They wanted something. I think England at that time was pretty grey. I think it was a pretty grey place. So David put a huge burst of colour into the pop scene. And then you moved, well, it sounds like in the book,

so seamlessly into creating costumes, make-up, styling, even getting the band members onto stage. How did you become so integral to the whole? I wanted to keep my job. And just being able to do the hair was not going to be enough. So I wanted to be on the road. I wanted to have my own wages, my own room, my own per diem. And I just knew I had to expand my usefulness.

So I did pretty much, you know, got the drinks, got the cigarettes. Besides, when you're in a town, those guys couldn't go out and get what they wanted. They looked too extraordinary. So I would go do their shopping for them, get them what they wanted, shaving cream, razors, whatever it was. And yes, coffee, drinks, cigarettes them what they wanted, shaving cream, razors, whatever it was. And yes, coffee, drinks, cigarettes, whatever they wanted. Well, in the book

you call yourself the tour madam. Oh my God, was that an unfortunate choice of words? I christened myself tour madam. I wasn't procuring people to come back to the band like that. But at the end, you know, when they got so famous they couldn't stay in the theatre

so we had to rush them out and rush them off. I'm going to bring the listeners up to speed here, Susie, because they might not have read any of the interviews or read the book yet, which you will read and you'll enjoy. But you describe yourself as tall madam in the book. And you write about bringing a girl who it turned out was only 16 to David. That's right, yes. And then having to get her out of the room because her mum arrived at the hotel.

And of course, in light of all the allegations of him having sex with underage girls at the time, which came out, came to light after he died. I mean, like you said it yourself. Oh, gosh, why did I, you know? Yeah, but I mean, he didn't have sex with her. When I went knocked on the door, she's the one that said, oh, my mother, she's come here to spoil my fun. I mean, that girl was ready to stay. And she didn't look 16. You know, girls don't when they're in full make-up and their dress is in their hair. Why wasn't she with somebody?

Well, her mum did turn up, as you say in the book. She was going to pick her up outside, yeah. How do you reflect on that time and the culture around it? It was a different time. I mean, now, if I think it would have been my daughter, of course I'd be horrified. So it was a different time is I mean, now, if I think it would have been my daughter, of course I'd be horrified. So it was a different time is really all I can say. I think the groupies in LA were 14, 15 years old.

Even that shocked me. Well, it is shocking. It is shocking, right? But they were so young. But no one seemed to be shocked except for me, really. I was like, well, where's their mother? Oh, she dropped them off. She wanted them to have a good time. And'm like wow it was very different time what was your

relationship like with David my relationship with David very professional really I mean we we was I was professional I used to I was with him a lot obviously during the during the shows changing his clothes making sure he had everything he needed. But those shows were fierce. I mean, that was a lot of work for him to do. And my job was to make it as easy for him as possible. We've got to talk about your own love story as well, which happened in the backdrop of all of this, because you met your late husband, Mick Ronson. My darling husband, yes. Your darling husband, when he was in The Spiders from Mars. And we were friends.

What was he like when you met him? When I first met him I thought he was absolutely gorgeous but I didn't want that. I wanted the job. I didn't want to be I knew that having being a boyfriend, it wasn't going to work. But after David had broken up the band

Mick and I got together and became romantic and fell in love in Italy. It was a wonderful moment for me. He was a great bloke. What's it been like? What was the experience like writing it? And now that it's out in the world, people reading your story? It's been pretty cathartic for me.

I could never talk about Mick without crying, to be honest. Even after all this time, even now. But I think it's been pretty cathartic for me. I never did marry again. I mean, I've had my relationships, but I never did marry again. He was one in a million, my husband. And when you think back on that time and that experience... Wasn't I lucky?

Wasn't I a lucky girl? I mean, I know I made the most of it, and I did, but wasn't I lucky to have got that chance and been able to do that? Travelling with those guys, and then afterwards being involved in music, the Rolling Thunder Review, Bob Dylan. What an amazing time that was for me.

I was very lucky. Susie's name dropped a couple there, but there's plenty more in the book. Susie Ronson, thank you so much for coming in to speak to me. Well, thank you so much for having me on. It's a great read. Me and Mr. Jones, My Life with David Bowie and the Spiders from Mars from Susie Ronson. I'm going to get you a tissue and we'll get you a nice cup of tea as well because we can do that at Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much. And people are still getting in touch with their hairstyles. Oh, let's hear, yeah. Let's re-read a few more out. Amanda's emailed in to say, my mum was also a hairdresser in Beckenham. Hang on, you might know each other. A little later than when David Bowie, but just as adventurous with hairstyles I was not Ziggy Stardust but my fave hairstyle was a pre-Raphaelite look permed and hennaed red my mum

said she'd never tried perm and henna and if my hair fell out we could always cut it all off I said let's do it it worked and I looked like I'd walked straight out of a Rossetti painting. How beautiful. In the 80s, all of the 80s stories, I had bright orange Bowie-esque hair. And then I had cropped and peroxided. It took the stylist hours to get the orange out. Sam in Cumbria says, I've always had short hair, even as a child, until the COVID pandemic when I finally grew it out due to no haircuts. Now I have long long thick hair with no

greys at 51. It's a whole new world. No greys at 51? What are you doing? I can't imagine that. That's what we want to know. What's the secret? Susie, thank you. You're welcome. 84844. Keep your thoughts coming in. Now, what's it like being a woman in Ramadan? Ramadan, of course, is the month long period of fasting observed by Muslims all over the world. It happens once a year, and we're currently just four days away from Eid at the end of Ramadan. It's estimated that there are around 1.9 billion people around the world who are followers of Islam, which means roughly 800 million women. So what happens when they have to do a month of fasting? And what about when they go through what many women go through once a month, about when they get their periods? Earlier, I was joined by

presenter and former teacher, Maireen Begg, and podcast host, Hawthor Ibrahim, to talk about just this. I started by asking Maireen why she decided to make her Ramadan podcast, Not Even Water. When I left teaching and I joined TV, I faced so much scrutiny and it was a real shock because all of a sudden people were treating me like a spokesperson for every Muslim in the world and it was I had to do a lot of research because I'd get invited to places and people would ask me questions and over the last few years I feel like the climate has really changed and there's even more scrutiny on Islam, on Muslim women, and people are too afraid to talk about religion and faith. And whether that's

someone, if you're someone of faith and you're, it's kind of a really awkward topic sometimes, or if you're somebody who has questions, you've got to, I was born and brought up in London, so it was very, very diverse, but there are communities around the UK who've never even met a Muslim. And the only things they get to hear about Muslims are things they see on the news. And I feel like Not Even Water is a really fun and light way to talk about Islam, to talk about faith and how young British Muslims are navigating their faith with their everyday lives, but in a really honest and judgment-free way. So it's a great platform for British Muslims to share their stories,

but it's also a great place for people to learn more about the religion. What do you think people's perception is of Muslim women, young Muslim women? I think it's growing. I think the conversation is getting a lot wider with culture and discussions that we have online. I think social media has helped a lot, having a lot of influencers

and content creators and people in media, some women kind of speaking out a bit more. I think generally people feel like there's kind of like a little facade on us, like we're kind of timid, we don't have opinions. You know, our lives are completely different and they're really not. So if anybody does think that young women don't have opinions. You know, our lives are completely different and they're really not. So if anybody does think that young women don't have opinions, then you really do need to listen to this podcast. Maureen, you brought up the fact that you were a teacher

and then you had this incredible broadcasting career, which is still ongoing. I was going to talk to you about that later, but you brought it up straight away. So a lot of pressure on your young shoulders and a lot of it, and probably exposed in a way that you weren't expecting to be exposed. Do you feel now doing this, that you have sort of ownership over who you are and how you present and what you can and can't say? 100%. It was so difficult because I think naturally when you, in your life, you

surround yourself with groups and circles of people who have similar viewpoints to yourself and that's just the circles you grow up and move within and all of a sudden when when I started my broadcasting career I had half of the people watching my shows who weren't Muslim who were like she's trying to convert everyone. And she's trying to make everyone Muslim. And this is BBC's propaganda, get her off our screen, go back to where you came from. I was born in Hackney, where do you want me to go back to? And then you had the other half of people who were watching the show who were from the Muslim community. And they were like, she doesn't represent us. She doesn't wear a hijab. She has, she can't be muslim it's like i really i didn't know

what i was in for and no matter what i said i could never get it right i could never get it right there was always somebody who was unhappy and i feel like not even water where i get to do something where it's not scripted no one writes my commentary for me and even if i got to look over the commentary this is purely my words. These are my conversations. Anything I say, I can stand by. Whether I face backlash for it or not, at least I know it was truly me having a conversation.

And actually the most special part of it is meeting incredible young women like yourself, who I feel like are so much more ready to speak about their experiences than maybe I was sort of in my 20s when I joined telly. I was really trying to get it right for so many years. And it's only now where I'm like, actually, I'm just going to tell my story authentically as my story. And that's what these young women are already doing. And I think it's the most beautiful thing to see. Well, it is a great, joyful episode that you're here to talk about, which is episode three of

the third series. And it starts off with a really important question about Ramadan and being on your period. Why did you want to discuss this? I just feel like I often think about if I was a young woman listening to this podcast what kind of conversations would benefit me would would it kind of help me to to listen to and get some answers from and also I feel so and I feel like if it would help me then it would help other women listening but it's not just to help people it's also to normalize these conversations and it's also I just feel like they're valid questions that even people who aren't Muslim might have but how do you really ask someone and go up to a Muslim and say hey Muslim colleague just wondering about periods let's have a chat so when it's wrong you wouldn't it'd be very very

difficult it would be a very awkward water cooler conversation to be having this is the podcast and here here are a group of people talking about it what are the rules what are the rules about being on your period you know what's so interesting before i get into the rules i think it's something that maherine touched on it's actually quite it's quite hilarious how often you get asked why are you not fasting today or what's going on and i think having these sort of conversations on a podcast space in a very friendly um not intensive way it kind of helps people navigate those conversations without feeling awkward and just feel relaxed and understand and and like

take informative information in so in terms of the rules um i would say for ramadan obviously if a woman is on her period she is not obliged to fast that's obviously one of the mercies that we have from god essentially because he obviously knows what we go through with our bodies. You already know what periods are like, the PMS, the pain, the trauma, just the constant emotions that go up and down. Yeah, you need nutrients. So obviously, I think that's one of the great mercies that we have, to not be able to fast.

And obviously, we will need to repay those days. But again, it's not something that you have to do within a month. You can do that within the full lunar cycle, so just before the next Ramadan in the year. So you make up the days what I particularly enjoyed was at the top of the this particular podcast where Maureen you said you feel really guilty and Hawthor you don't feel any guilt at all. There was such outrage at me saying I feel guilty I was like guys I didn't mean like there's this great shame like I meant you know all the time when I don't pray I feel really sad that I'm not I'm not actually praying and I feel really left out and I think somebody in the comment section read something a beautiful and they were like guys I think she means feels like FOMO like fear

of missing out and I'm like it's true I didn't feel like I hide in a corner and I can't tell I meant I feel like oh god I should be doing this I really want to be doing this and I'm sad that I'm not going to be able to fast with everybody and it's it was so taken out of context I thought it was hilarious but it always is if you say it like so just just because it is woman's hour and we've got a huge audience listening to us what are you what are you missing out on I think what she means is and I experienced this the first week of Ramadan because I was on my period I think Ramadan is such a special month and I think it's so spiritually enriching that you feel like oh my god I want to be able to pray I want to be able

to do the things that I need to do compared to everyone else that's fasting and praying at the time but I think one thing that Mehreen summed up quite well is, and I think we explained in the podcast, is just because you're on your period and you're not physically doing the acts of physical prayer, you can still make supplication, you can still do the other things that enrich your soul, and you kind of still get that spiritual feeling as well without having to do the physical activity.

But I did feel this way the first week of Ramadan when everyone in my household was fasting and I was just sitting there like yeah what do we do I'm really missing out on the spiritual aspect but also you're because you're in a routine and if you have been um you've been fasting for like a couple of weeks and you're really in it and you're used to like every night I'm doing this intense prayer and every like sunrise I'm doing this prayer and I'm and then suddenly you stop and you're like I don't have to wake up now it feels strange it does feel a little bit weird it's a little bit like I should be doing it even though you know you know you don't have to you know you can rest and relax and all of that

for me personally it's a little bit like I lose my bearings a little bit but it's something I really want to be doing and when I'm not doing it it just makes me feel like I wish I was yeah that also describes your level of faith as well which is really inspiring because often faith goes up and down it's not something that's quite linear and to be feeling that way constantly and having like FOMO or guilt or unbalancedness I feel like that's a good thing because I feel like you're spiritually there. I don't know about you guys, but I grew up in a South Asian family and a Punjabi family.

I'm a bit older than you, quite a bit older, and talking about periods was just a big no-no culturally. So you've got the religion on one side, but culturally, it was just not something that's talked about. Even now, I think the conversation is only just starting to happen with the younger generation. Do you feel like you are really pushing the agenda as young Muslim women? I remember a scenario just starting out my fasting.

I think I was like 16. And I think one of my uncles came back from home to visit us. And I was casually eating in the kitchen. He was like very shocked by it. Not, I wouldn't say appalled, but he was just like, please, like, don't eat in front of us. Don't eat in the kitchen sort of thing like I just felt shameful to think oh my god like maybe I shouldn't be eating in the comfort of my home and I think now that's something we discuss on on our podcast it's just the idea that because we've been given this break it isn't being on your period isn't an

impurity like it's not shameful it's a natural thing people have it we're all grown-ups we've had these discussions and I just think yeah it's a taboo subject that people it's it's strange to say that it's a taboo subject because it's something so normal for women but I think in spaces of like culture especially around men in our societies I feel like it's something that it's hard for them to grasp it's like an icky thing that they don't want to discuss I feel like periods and just women's I mean anything to do with women's health and women's sexuality and I think they are kind of taboo or not talked about even outside of the South Asian community and you're right 100% it probably is a bit like

more within the South Asian community but so when I was fasting a couple of weeks ago I saw a colleague and he's not South Asian and he said oh you're not fasting then and I said no I'm on my period and maybe I do subconsciously do it on purpose like I do say it out loud on purpose and maybe you're right maybe now I'm thinking about it I think I do I kind of enjoy not enjoy making people uncomfortable but I quite like to push the boundaries in that way. I'm like, yeah, my period, you shouldn't really ask them why they're not fasting, darling. And you could see he was visibly quite uncomfortable by it. But also, yeah, in my house, we never grew up talking about periods or sex. I'm 34. We still don't. And I think when you say that people are like,

again, people re-jump to, oh, her house must must be so strict my mum thinks armpit is a rude word I said armpit the other day she was like don't say that like she really they're really strange I mean and me and my sister really do take the mix and sometimes if we like we'll be around the house and we'll just be like vagina or something and my mum's like stop but it's hilarious it's really really funny and my dad's in on it and it's not because we live in some insanely backhood kind of how my mom just feels because she is from that generation where they really didn't talk about any of that stuff. So yeah, I learned about periods and all of that from Judy Blume books growing up. And I'm really glad that now people can listen to the podcast and learn a bit more from that and I bet there's an army of young women who are delighted that this podcast exists because obviously you have to live as young Muslim women in in your country in different worlds you have to live in different in different spheres and adapt depending on what sphere you're in so uh Hawthorne how do you find I mean it's a huge question but being a young Muslim woman

in Britain um you know what it's it's a big question I love it and I just like it sometimes I love it because I grew up here I was educated here I work here I feel like it's a part of my personality and my identity as a British Muslim woman at times the many things that I don't like is the idea that I'm scrutinized there's a lot of bias around me I have to watch what I say the way I talk the way I look it's sad that if I get on a bus and you know people don't want to sit next to me do you know what I mean it's things like that that kind of you kind of recognize yourself as being different and it's not a nice feeling to have constantly to be aware of yourself and your safety and your security. I think things

are changing. There's a lot of conversations. I think Muslim women are coming into huge media spaces now. There's a lot of representation on TV, on the BBC, on media everywhere. And I think that's really important because it kind of just shows we are human. You know, we have opinions like everyone else. But I think overall, it's been very positive. And I'm really proud to be a British Muslim woman. Hawthor, Ibrahim and Mehreen Baig there. And all three series of Not Even Water are available on BBC Sounds. Now, a study conducted by the Nail Tech Organisation, an online learning community for people in the industry, shows that the UK average lies at around £40. But their research has also revealed that only £7 of that goes to the nail technician

when costs are deducted, meaning they're often earning less than minimum wage. Because of this, manicurists around the country are increasing their prices on Monday in a sign of solidarity for more financial support in the sector. Well, to discuss this, I'm joined by Amy Guy, the founder of the Nail Tech Org, and Rochelle Anthony, owner of Doll's House Salon in Milton Keynes, and also the runner-up on The Apprentice last year. Welcome to both of you. Amy, I'm going to come to you first.

Tell us about your research. What were your findings when it came to nail techs? Hello, and good morning to everyone as well. Thank you so much for having me. So, yeah, at the Nail Tech Org we are home to thousands of nail technicians and we recently did some research around the sort of financial information of our members, of how long they were spending with each client, what were the general costs of each treatment and essentially what they were taking home per hour as a wage um and we were so shocked when we um understood that the average was just under seven pounds per hour as a profit taken for the nail technician um we have understood for a long time

that pricing you know is it it's always been something that as a standard and it'd be interesting to hear what Rochelle thinks of this too, but now technicians tend to join the industry, maybe have a little look at what everybody else is charging around them, and then maybe charge around the same or maybe even a little bit less because they're new to the industry.

And I think because of that, it's led us to the position that we're in now, where we knew that it was a problem, but not as much as what we actually found when we really did the research. So we in now where we knew that it was a problem but not as much as as what we actually found when we really did the research so we just felt like we needed to do something that was really going to um you know encourage a shift in the industry that really needs to happen for us to to remain sustainable come on then rochelle how do you set your prices what do you look at um so very similar to obviously what amy said is i will look at what the norm is in the area

um but i do think that i think it's beautiful what amy's doing i think as an industry we need to collaborate over competition and we need to charge our worth you know there's a few people in the industry that will always undercut but But I think if we come together, we're going to actually make sure that people take our industry seriously. It's something I harp on about all the time. You know, we are skilled people. We are doing a service that is a luxury based service. So if we don't charge what we're worth, then you will find that people will just always expect the same. We are feeling the cost of living crisis. We are also paying through the nose for products. And if you want a luxury based service,

I think this whole movement is just stunning to see. And I've always, always harped on about collaboration over competition. So again, you know, we look at what the pricing structure is in other salons, but if we set the bar a little bit higher, it just allows us to actually work for our passion, make a net profit and not just do it as a hobby. And this is an industry, as we all know, that is predominantly run by women for women. So now it's a, yes, absolutely. No one saw that, but we might put the clip up but you did a nice hand gesture there um tell us about the um the increase day then what are your price recommendations amy so i think it's really important within this message that we understand

that every single business is different every business has different costs obviously rochelle is running salons which would be slightly different to a standard self-employed nail technician and I think that is the point of this movement is that those costs regardless of who you are and how you're running your business have to be considered when you are creating your treatment menu creating your price list and so there isn't really any any right or wrong in terms of what your prices should be. They just have to consider all of your business costs and actually give you a profit that is more than minimum wage by the time you've done the treatment and divided that. What would you like to see happen on this day?

I would absolutely love for nail technicians to finally be earning the wage that they should be earning. It is not an easy job and we work so so hard it just seems to be the one beauty treatment I know there are a couple of others but mainly nails it just hasn't increased in price along with everything else around us and so I would love on one day for nail techs to just finally see that shift. Rochelle what are going to be the long-term benefits of increasing manicurists income? Well as you all know when you have a salon it has so many different price points and factors to it and when you have a nail tech they are literally visible all the time I'm such a hand

talker you guys can't see that but I'm always talking with my hands and this is a physical thing hands and exquisite nails may I add it's all part of you know your general well-being so it's not just an external factor it's an internal factor and that price you know you could charge thousands for it but people at home that don't do the beauty industry don't realize and I've always said it nail technicians are worth their weight in gold they are using three four different products on their nails they're using cuticle oils and they last for a good three to four weeks so when you actually break it down if we collectively come together and charge a higher price point what's then going to happen is people will start to see the worth and that that is the product that we have to do is value.

Nail technicians don't cut any corners. They physically can't. They can't start using an inferior product because it's not going to last as long. But if we actually set up a price point from the initial, the beginning, and say, this is what we're going to be charging, then no one ever can argue with that. But, you know, it's such a hard thing because I don't want to pass that cost on to everybody at home because they are also feeling that cost of

living crisis but it's got to happen it's got to be done so yeah I I'm very much in agreement with it and I hope to see it happen and everyone collectively come together to do it um and uh and how will you make sure that this is going to happen, Amy? Well, I think we already have, to be fair. The hard work has been done. We've been working so hard to just spread awareness around this. We've educated over 5,000 nail techs in the UK with our free masterclass, which is still ongoing

if anybody is listening and wants to be a part of it. My Instagram, thenailtechorg's Instagram handle, you'll get the link in there so we've educated over 5 000 nail tech so far but we know there are so many who've sort of skipped the master class and just gone straight ahead well you know be interesting to see what happens after monday and how i mean how the industry responds but also then how the customer base the predominantly female customer base reacts to it. Thank you both for coming on and talking to me about that Amy Guy and Rochelle Anthony and thanks to all of you who've been getting in touch with your great hair stories

Margaret says, this is my 74th birthday and my hair is still black no grey hair, I can't take credit for it, it's my jeans and someone else has said I once went green for a Halloween party to join work with the festivities. I used a laughably named wash in, wash out colour.

Unfortunately, I was green for St. Patrick's Day, despite my best efforts. Never again. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, this is Kirsty Young. I just wanted to let you know that Young Again, my podcast for BBC Radio 4, is back. I'm telescoping two bits of the story together. That's okay. It's only memory. There's only short bits. We can say what we like. In Young Again, we're joined by some of the world's most intriguing people.

Bill was the CEO at Microsoft at the time. And I ask a simple question. If you knew then what you know now, what would you tell yourself? Be very, very careful about the people you surround yourself with. I gave too much power to people who didn't deserve it. Subscribe to Young Again on BBC Sounds. I'm looking forwardlevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.