Woman's Hour - Safer sport for women, novelist Nadine Matheson, Sabrina Ali on Dugzi Dayz

Episode Date: May 8, 2024

Now that women’s sport is advancing, we need clear safeguarding rules for women and girls about what is and isn’t okay when it comes to talking about female health outside the realm of medicine. That’s the call from Baz Moffat, one of the co-founders of The Well HQ, which aims to break barriers in women’s sport and champion education about female health. She joins Hayley Hassell to tell us more about their new Safer Sport poster campaign and why it’s needed.Once one of Russia's biggest pop stars, Manizha represented the country at the Eurovision Song Contest in 2021. Then Russia invaded Ukraine and Manizha used her songs and her platform to share her anti-war views. Subsequently her concerts were cancelled, her music banned and Manizha's safety, both in real life and online, has been compromised. She talks to Hayley about her life and her new single Candlelight.How do we keep children safe online? Hayley is joined by Esther Ghey and Marinna Spring to discuss Ofcom's new safety codes of practice.Bestselling author Nadine Matheson is a criminal defence lawyer and uses her own experiences in the world of criminal law to build her stories and characters. She talks to Hayley about the new book - ‘The Kill List’ - and why there aren’t more black female detectives in crime novels. Four girls sitting in a Mosque in detention are stuck in darkness after a power outage. To pass the time, they tell Somali folktales and bond in a modern day take on The Breakfast Club. That’s the scene for Dugsi Dayz, performing now at the Royal Court Theatre. The writer and actor Sabrina Ali joins Hayley in the Woman’s Hour to tell us more about it.Presenter: Hayley Hassell Producer: Laura Northedge Studio Producer: Neva Missirian

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Hayley Hassel and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. Here's what's coming up on the programme today. Once a famous face across billboards and advertisements in Russia, Maneesha is the singer-songwriter who in 2021 represented her country of Russia at the Eurovision Song Contest. But now she's in hiding, fearful for her life,

after she used her platform and her songs to protest against Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Maneesha is here today to tell me how she is continuing to use her voice to sing against the war. Also on the programme today, we're responding to Ofcom's new regulations around online safety. If you've not caught it yet, they're new rules which will come into place next year, proposed to monitor harmful content and alter algorithms on children's social media feeds to prevent inappropriate

content online. Well, I'll be joined by the BBC's disinformation correspondent, Mariana Spring, and mother of Brianna Jai, who was murdered last year. Esther has since been critical of the access children have to unsafe online content, and they'll both be here to discuss whether these new rules go far enough. And we're talking about the launch of a new safety campaign warning girls in sport to seek proper medical support for their injuries and be mindful of sports coaches who may use their position of power to offer intrusive and abusive physical contact. I'll be discussing their new posters and their campaign which is launched today.

I'm also going to be joined by author and criminal defence lawyer Nadine Mitherson whose new book The Kill List is as gripping and as gory as her real life encounters. She'll be here to talk me through the twist plots and also tell us about her vast experience in real life crime which led her to creating some fictional bestsellers. And if you haven't caught it yet, Dugsy Days is the new play written and performed by Sabrina Ali about four girls in detention in their school mosque or their dugsy as it's called in Somali Muslim culture. It's funny and dramatic and has an award-winning run at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival and it's now on its national tour. It's full of recognisable antics and stories of detention, which got us all talking

here in the Women's Hour office this morning and confessing our own detention stories. Some of us have been put in detention for giggling and someone whose name will remain anonymous was put in detention for a whole term. I know, you wanted to be in the office this morning. It was great. But we'd love you to share your detention stories with me. Were you given maybe lines for cheating or maybe you were made to stay after school for not doing your homework?

Or was it worse? I'd love to hear your stories, please. You can text the programme. The number's 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website too. Or you can send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note on the number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply depending on your provider, so you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can.

But terms and conditions can be found on our website. But let's start the programme with one of Russia's biggest pop stars. Maneesha is the last person to have represented the country at the Eurovision Song Contest back in 2021. And at this point in her life, she was the face of huge brand campaigns. Her music was everywhere and she was performing to the masses. Then Russia invaded Ukraine and Maneesha decided to use both her songs and her platform to share her anti-war views. But from that moment, her life changed dramatically. Her concerts were cancelled, her music was banned and her safety,

both in real life and online, were compromised. Her new single is called Candlelight and it's out today. It's part of her latest album Hope. Thank you so much for coming on the programme, Aneesha. The song is beautiful and I was just picking up on some of the words there. You talk about who you were before. I've already mentioned your fame and popularity before Russia invaded Ukraine, but what was life like for you before 2021? I was so naive. I was so, you know, a normal, ordinary girl who was a refugee before in her life.

But then she became a big star in Russia. You know, I did it by my own hands with my mother. It was absolutely independent way without any labels without any i don't know supporters with money we did it two women together but then war started and you know um i said what i what i feel i said what i felt and i I was like, you know, I couldn't imagine what will happen next in my life. What did happen next? Because obviously when the war started, what was life like for you then?

And if I may put it into context for our listeners, because... I'm blacklisted right now. And blacklisted means that you can't release any content. I can't have any performances. I can't, like my music band in public places. Children in school cannot listen to my music. Even I cannot do, you know, charity performances on the stage. I worked with a big and cool foundation in Russia

who works with autistic people and we had our, you know, we call it autistic orchestra and I was singing with them and the council of St. Petersburg cancelled my participation in it. And as you say, you were doing amazing things. You were the face of the Eurovision Song Contest for Russia and you were doing brilliant things in your personal life as well. And how was your personal life affected? Because if I can just explain the context, as you alluded to earlier, you and your mother were both refugees in the country. You left Kazakhstan when you were four years old due to conflict.

So you've already lived through a war-torn environment. And then this happens in your now home country of Russia. How did, how were you affected personally by that? I, you know, I remember that morning when I saw all of the news that war started in Ukraine, and I, I had so many flashbacks in my head. You know, it's horrible to be a refugee. It's horrible to experience that in your life. And when I said what I wanted exactly to say, I want, you know, to see peace. I want to reflect peace. Not reflect, sorry, my English sometimes can see peace. I want to reflect peace.

Not reflect, sorry, my English sometimes can be bad. You do remarkable. But you decided to stand up against it and use your voice and your songs to give some kind of anti-war sentiment. Why did you decide to do that and do it so publicly? Because, you know, I think it's a normal thing to do. I know it's risky and I'm risking a lot right now. I didn't lose my career.

My government is trying to destroy my career in my home. That's okay. I'm continuing my way. I'm doing what I can. I always was a supporter for refugees. Me and my mom opened before war a foundation which helps people who cut up in difficult situations in life and we work with migrants, we work with refugees. I am UN ambassador and I'm helping refugees all my life

and, you know, war is going on still. And there are so many women and kids. And they are in unsafe places. And the only one thing they want is to come back home. And they can't. And I know it. I know that feeling. And I wanted to support all of those people.

I wanted to show them that they are not alone and we have to think about that because even if tomorrow a war will stop, I wish, I really want it, there still will be lots of refugees with no voice, with no home, and we have to be their supporter of their bright future. So you have spoken out, but the consequences of that are, of course,

have been quite debilitating for yourself. How has your life, in terms of surveillance, constant attacks on you, how have you been affected since you've been speaking out? I'm receiving threats. I'm going through cycles, cyberbullying attacks. All of my media platforms, social media platforms, are attacked by bots. I'm going through right now under the investigation from Russian investigative committee.

And it's dangerous. And, you know, I don't want to look like a victim. I know that I'm still a human, you know, and I'm singing and I'm a woman and I can do what I love to do. I became a mother for these three years. Yeah. And I'm writing my songs to give people hope because my wish today is to make hope viral. And I'm not stupid. I can't, you know, stop war and any musician can't, you know.

But I believe that with music, it's a little bit easier to go through this pain, to go through this path of life with a warm heart. That's why that's the only one thing what I can do. Your passion is palatable. I can hear it through your voice. But, you know, the threats are still real. You've had to go into hiding. You've had to record your music secretly. And you're currently being investigated by the investigative committee in Russia, as you say.

And they're accusing you of justifying terrorism after remarks made following the concert hall attack in Moscow in March. How does that feel? And what are you going through at the moment? I will be honest with you. Sometimes I feel myself very weak and helpless. But at the same time, I understand that, that first of all I'm not alone I have my family and I have my daughter and that which means that I have to continue my way you know um but does having a daughter not make it more scary if you will I mean if found guilty you could face what is it 14 years in prison yeah and I hope that that we're not going to be in prison

because you know from prison it's hard to hear music but uh i know you you think that but why you're speaking out just you know exactly that was my next question no i was born in Tajikistan. In our culture, we are very open to people. We are thinking about our families, about the world, you know. And when I started my way as a musician, my mother always asked me, why are you doing this, Manisha? Why do you need this, Manisha? You want to be popular? Okay, but for what?

And I said, Mom, I want to do this world a little bit better. I know it sounds very banal and maybe simple, but now, in 2024, I understand that this is the reason why I'm doing it. This is still the reason why I'm doing it and why I believe what I do you're now a mother congratulations has that changed anything for you does that not make yeah go on how is that that's crazy nobody talks about motherhood you know everybody's talking about this pregnancy period oh my gosh you're so beautiful la la la do that do that but then you're sitting at home with the yelling baby and you don't know what to do and you feel yourselves you know so

weak i i said to myself like manisha you can perform on your vision song contest you can say lots of things against the war but you cannot choose which vaccination to do to your daughter really well we are women are so cool we're having so many roles it's a lot you know it's a lot and it's a lot when you're living through what you're living through as well we're not doing it well we are doing it well trust yeah most definitely And you're obviously here to talk about your new single, Candlelight, which is out today. Tell us about that track a bit more. What does it mean to you and why have you decided

to get it out there? Well, as much as you can. I didn't just, you know, wrote this song or sing this song. This song, I lived through this song. That's my life. It's a part of my life right now. And I wrote this song, first of all, to help myself to go through these hard times. And if I can do that, it means that everyone can.

And I really want, I wish that maybe this song will support someone and help someone and make and can give hope people because you know there are lots of people who are you know gave up with themselves and um they don't see any hope i can understand them because you know we did so many things to stop war in our world. So many peaceful actions have been taken, but war is still going. And it's devastating. And in that moment, you feel that everything breaks down. But it's not. You have to calm down. You have to think about yourself.

You have to inspire yourself. Because have to think about yourself. You have to inspire yourself because of that, you cannot go. Well, that's what your new album is all about. So, Manija, thank you so much for coming on the programme. I wish you the best of luck with everything. The new single, Candlelight, is out today. It's part of her latest album, Hope. Manija, thank you very much. I just posted it and I'm asking you you please share it and please listen to it.

I will be so, so grateful for that. Thank you. Thank you. And honestly, good luck with everything. Thank you for coming on the show. Now next, we're speaking about online safety today. And how do we keep children safe online? It's a question often asked. Indeed, we have regularly asked it here on Woman's Hour. And today, the media regulator Ofcom has published its answer.

The new rules include 40 practical measures, and Ofcom's boss Dame Melanie Dawes has described it as a big moment. The centrepiece is the requirement around algorithms which are used to decide what is shown on people's social media feeds. But parents of children who died after exposure to harmful online content have described Ofcom's new rules as insufficient. First of all, I would like to introduce you to Esther Jai, whose 16-year-old daughter Brianna was murdered by two teenagers last year. One of Brianna's killers, Scarlett Jenkinson, who was just 15 at the time,

had been able to access videos on the so-called dark web, which is an encrypted internet browser, before she and her friend Eddie Ratcliffe, who was also 15 at the time, killed Brianna. They were sentenced to life in prison. And Esther is one of a number of parents who say the new rules don't go far enough. Esther, thank you so much for coming on the programme. It's an honour to speak to you today. When you first heard the rules, what did you think? I think that when I first read through the document of the consultation, I think that it is positive.

It's a really positive step in the right direction. I think that Ofcom really wants to do a good job and they want to protect children. I just think that they've got such a mammoth task. And yeah, like social media is just so vast. And I just worry how that actually going to enforce everything that's in the document. But yeah. Do you think it goes far enough, though? I mean, it's a good step.

Does it go far enough from what I've read that the wording is vague, it's subjective? What do you think about that? Yeah, I think that there is quite a lot of ambiguity throughout the document. So, for example, there's a part that says a significant amount of children. I think that this needs to be more clear and also the age of children. So there's not actually an age that's stated within the document. I think that it needs to be crystal clear so that social media companies know exactly what they have to do, because I think if there is anything that's slightly ambiguous, they may use that to sort of not comply with the act.

And you know how children can get past these things and look on the dark areas of the web that they're not supposed to. Does that worry you? Yes so I've actually set up a petition a couple of months ago calling for mobile phone companies to take more responsibility for children's welfare. And I would like to see mobile phones developed to be safe for children. So I think that there should be like word monitoring apps, which the software is there, it's available,

but it all needs to be at point of purchase. And it needs to be tamper-proof as well because children can get around these things. Parents are putting parental controls on phones and children are managing to take them off. Like I say about the Online Safety Act, I think it is a great step in the right direction but I think that we need other things alongside it

to take basically a belt and braces approach and to make sure that nothing ever slips through that and children are safe online. Mariana, I'd love to come to you now, because can you tell us a bit more about these rules, what they entail and what are they trying to do? And do they go far enough? Yes. So a lot of this is about algorithms. It's about these automated systems that recommend us content on our social media feeds. And we don't know lots about algorithms, mainly because the social media companies

are not transparent about them. So what we do know is they, on the whole, tend to recommend us content that will make us react, maybe happily, maybe that scares us. And then that keeps us on the social media sites, which is obviously good for them. I think that it's an interesting proposal from Ofcom here which is basically trying to say hang on kids are being recommended harmful content how can we deal with that can the social media companies commit

to ensuring that their algorithms are not recommending this kinds of content to accounts that register as being children as under 18. There are kind of two issues here from the people that I've been chatting to and I've chatted to a lot of social media insiders and also families affected like you Esther and I really applaud your courage I think you've done a brilliant job of speaking out about this. I think that the two issues are both the actual age like how do you ensure that kids are the age they say they are when they sign up everyone anyone who has kids or knows kids knows that that's something that they're quite good at getting around so a lot of this is about how they ensure the social media companies ensure that

people are registering as their correct age and then you've got this issue of what kinds of content they're being recommended the problem is is that um on social media adults and kids exist in the same spaces so there'll be recommended content that's possibly not meant for people under the age of 18. And I think it's a big question, certainly from the kind of social media insiders I've interviewed before for investigations and otherwise, how they would succeed in managing to ensure that accounts under the age of 18 aren't recommending this kind of content, but accounts over the age of 18 could be. I think as well that something that, you know, I set up undercover accounts quite a lot of the time.

They're not deceptive. They're designed to test the social media algorithms. I've done that for BBC Panorama, for the AmeriCast podcast to try and understand what people and kids as well are being recommended and suggested. And there's no kind of clear science to all of this as well. So I think that's that's what makes it so difficult is everyone's sort of stumbling around in the dark trying to figure out how you

can better protect kids I think the idea that Esther's actually mentioned around different mobile phones the idea that actually kids have to exist in almost like a totally different space which is designed to protect them is one that certainly lots of people I've chatted to have welcomed and been interested in again I think today is a big reminder that the social media companies are big, they're rich, they're unaccountable. In some cases they are as if not more powerful than governments and yet what we demand of them is far less. So I think what Ofcom is doing and from lots of the people who get in touch with me about the harm social media causes to them, I think that they welcome the stand that Ofcom are taking. They feel as though people are trying to do something. But it's another

question what that will actually look like in practice. Mariana, you are the BBC's disinformation and social media correspondent. It's your job to look for those gaps in things. And from what I gather, most of these social media companies are out in San Francisco or elsewhere and have different laws in those states. So will changing the online safety bill in the UK and for companies here actually affect what exists on the world wide web that we can still access? I think that's one of the massive problems here because actually social media companies or social media sites are not limited to one particular country, one particular jurisdiction. And that poses a problem for politicians and governments in different places

that want to deal with this perhaps in slightly different ways, or are trying to ensure that they can protect people in their countries from the harm on social media. The other issue is that legislation takes quite a long time. And social media is constantly evolving. We've seen that even happen in the past few years. And so I think that it's a really difficult thing for policymakers and politicians to grapple with. I constantly hear from and say every day from someone who's been harmed by content on social media, often parents really worried about their kids, but also all kinds of people who have been affected by hate, disinformation, polarization, other kinds of harm. And they constantly say to me, I feel like nobody's listening. I feel like the social media companies are big and inaccessible. And I can't, you know, they're not responding when I report content or I can't reach out to them.

They feel as though policymakers, even with the best intentions, often aren't quick enough or aren't acting quick enough to deal with this sorts of stuff. And so they message people like me to say, can you please investigate? Because I don't know what to do about this it's worth saying that all of the social media companies you know defend their position and talk about prioritizing the safety of users over profit and you know they'll continue to be asked big questions I think but it's a reminder that this is really hard to do basically and ultimately there are very real people and in this case and what we're talking about now, kids who are affected by this kind of content but without a clear solution.

Esther, if I could come back to you because I know you speak to other parents who have tragically lost children under these circumstances. What do they say and what are they saying about these rules? Are they sufficient enough? So I'm part of a group called the Bereaved Families for Online Safety and I think they don't feel that it goes far enough they feel that it needs to be bolder and I suppose that yeah they just don't feel that it does go far enough. I think that it's really they just don't feel that it does go far enough.

I think that it's really important to state as well that this is something that impacts people from all walks of life. Like we're all affected by this. And it's really important as well that we all come together. I suppose like government, tech, parents, children, Ofcom, we can all come together. Because we're in the position now which is bad and we need to try to find a solution and like I said before like if that's the online safety act, smartphones that are safe for children and yeah I think we all need to now just work together and put our heads together and find out what we can actually do to solve this problem. Because what was apparent to me is that a lot of the restrictions coming in or rules that are

coming in are asking the children or parents of children to monitor them themselves. So you either report harm when you see it or you set up algorithms that mean you don't get that harmful content. A lot of people would say that's too late a child has often already seen it by the time they report it and secondly you're asking children to do the right thing or parents to monitor children that is not always the case is it no and i think that um expecting children to um to sort of be responsible for themselves and that um it it's it takes like a certain level of emotional maturity which children don't have and i think that that's something that maybe the online safety act is missing the um support for parents um because at the moment they've got they've got social media on smartphones

that that's with them 24 7 and we can't monitor monitor everything that children are accessing so I think that there needs to be more support for parents um and yeah I think that's something that is it is really missing and do you think these rules would have changed anything for Brianna um I I'm not sure potentially but um the main main reason why I started with the mobile phone campaign was because before her life was taken, she actually really struggled with mental health and anxiety and she was self-harming and she had an eating disorder. And I didn't actually realise that she was accessing forums online that were encouraging eating disorders and anorexia. Sorry, eating disorders and self-harming. And I just think that it might not have prevented her death, but she might have had a bit more of a happier life as a teenager.

Thank you, Esther. That's heartbreaking to hear, but so brave of you to come on and give that message and continue doing your wonderful work. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. And if anyone who's listening has been impacted by what you've heard on the programme today, you can seek help and advice from the BBC's Action Line. We also have a statement from Ofcom's chief executive,

Dame Melanie Dawes, who says, in line with new online safety laws, our proposed codes firmly place the responsibility for keeping children safer on tech firms. They will need to tame aggressive algorithms that push harmful content to children in their personalised feeds and introduce aid checks so children get an experience that's right for their age.

Our measures, which go way beyond current industry standards, will deliver a step change in online safety for children in the UK. And I'd like to thank Marianna and Esther for coming on the programme today. Thank you very much. Moving on to my next guest today, because she's got many feathers in her cap. Nadine Matheson is a bestselling author whose books have been translated into 15 languages. She's also a criminal defence lawyer and a podcaster. And she has a new book coming out tomorrow, The Kill List, the latest in her crime series featuring the black female detective Angelica Henley and her serial crimes unit. For this third book, and I have to say it's quite gory and gripping book, Nadine again uses her own vast experience in the world of criminal law to build stories and characters.

Nadine, welcome to the programme. Thank you so much for having me. First of all, what I love about your writing is you know your stuff. You can tell when you're describing witness statements or holding cells that you've been there. It's real life to you. I mean not that exaggerated but I'm sure it closely gets there. Do you get much of your inspiration from your real life work as a lawyer and where does the line get drawn between writer and legal professional? Well yeah I do get a lot of my experience obviously as a lawyer comes into my novels The Cureless, The Jigsaw Man and The Binding Room and I think the most important thing for me when

I was writing my novels is for them to be authentic and I want the readers to actually feel as if they're there in the story and also feel like they can even smell like the cells when they're reading the novels. But for me, I've always specialised in criminal defence law. So when I'm working on my books, which is, I said, they're police procedurals and they're set in South East London and we have this fictional serial crimes unit, I've had to switch my brain around to think like a prosecutor, basically.

You're usually on the side of the good guy, but there ain't many of them in this book. No there's not there's very few good guys in the book so I've had to switch my brain around to think like a police officer think like a prosecutor and build the case up from the very beginning so for me it's not thinking about oh you know thinking about the defendant it's more focused actually now on the victims and actually pursuing the killers but in terms of my experience, I've always thought about, in terms of the killers, in terms of all the characters in the books, thinking about the own defendants that I've represented in the past

and how everyone's got their own unique story. No one's the same and making sure that all those elements, their uniqueness, their own individual stories, their backgrounds come through when I'm writing the novels. And they do. They're not caricatures. You can tell they're real people. Tell me about Detective Inspector Angelica Henley, because she's quite a woman. But who is she? Is there any inspiration in real life towards her character?

Well, she's definitely not me. You've said that straight away. No, because I've been honest before. She's definitely not me. I mean, she's very complex. She has flaws. But, you know, I've been in before, she's definitely not me. I mean, she's very complex. She has flaws. But, you know, I've been in criminal defence work for nearly 20 years and I've lost count of the amount of times I've sat in police stations and I've sat in interview rooms and I've sat opposite not only black female detectives, but also Asian female detectives.

And it just always seems strange to me that for someone who read a lot of crime fiction, especially crime fiction set in London that very few of those novels featured or protagonist who was a black female detective and I feel like crime fiction it has to reflect real life so for me it was always I was always going to write about a black female detective but what I mean we have similar attributes in the sense that we're both from southeast London we both have the same background that our families are from Grenada but I said she's very flawed she's very complex she suffers from PTSD she's a wife and a mother and I think we can all relate to that trying to balance your professional life and your personal life and trying to work out what takes priority yeah you

don't give her an easy time she has a lot going on as you say the PTSD and then she is struggling with motherhood at the same time and it's quite nice in a way to see someone who's flawed because it's relatable and not only that she's trying to juggle some really important parts of her life. Was it important to you to make her not perfect? Yeah definitely because I say when I when I'm given a, I always say I'm given a case nicely packaged up. You know, I have all my witness statements. Everything's ready to go. I meet my client and we get on. And but I always think for, you know, the detectives, they have to live with these cases day in, day out. And I always just think to myself, well, you know, how do you get through the day? How can you not take that home with you? Because you're with a case from the minute the 999 call comes in until the case is concluded and that could be a year later two

years later even five years later so for me it was just making sure that shunned through you know the impact of the cases on her personal life and saying that she's not perfect because none of us are perfect we've all got our issues a few a. A few. One of the things that did strike me as maybe there's correlations between the two of you is obviously in her job, she's a black female trying to work in a world of crime. And she talks about how her community don't trust her profession.

I wondered if that's anything that has been an experience in your life. No, I think because I'm a criminal defence solicitor, I've never had that experience of someone looking at me suspiciously. I mean, there's been situations when I've been in a police station and a client, especially with the young kids, they've asked for a duty solicitor, but they don't quite understand that a duty solicitor

doesn't act on behalf of the police. So you've had that kind of issue. You've had to deal with that quite quickly. But I haven't had the issue that Angelica has in the novels where they look at her suspiciously as if she's been a traitor as a black woman working for the police. And I'm aware that that happens.

You know, there's that feeling. So for me, it's very important that, you know, that's not ignored in the books. I think it's supposed to reflect real life. and it's better to deal with it and confront it and then show how she gets on with that and moves on from it. Yeah, you can't change it unless you are someone within that field. And there's lots of female characters in your book, actually. The unflappable pathologist, Lynn, of a determined journalist, Lillian. And how important was it for you to include women in your book?

You know, not just as victims, but actually as strong, as strong powerful women yeah because I'm you know they're all around me you know the strong women are the women that I grew up with the strong women are my friends my say my aunts the people that I worked with throughout my career so 20 years in criminal law I've worked with a lot of strong women and you said I'm Linda pathologist I I've met, you know, female pathologists during my career. So, you know, I know how dedicated they are, how committed they are, and how strong they are. But also, they are human, they have, you know, they're vibrant people. So it's important for me to show that in the books also. And how much research does it take? Because this book is obviously about a serial killer. And I know you, you will have worked in lots of criminal

cases. But are these cases you've worked with in the past or do you have to do extra research and sort of find the inspiration for these stories? How far do you go? Well, I don't use like a total case for my books.

I'll take out, there's always like a unique quality about a case and especially with defendants, there might be a unique attribute that sticks out in my mind. So I'll be like, okay, there's something about

and I'm going to use in a book. I always say I had a client I represented in the early days, and she'd been charged with possession of firearms. And I had an image in my head of what this woman's going to look like, like a, you know, just a full on South London gangster mole. And then when I met her, she looked like my grandmother. Really? Gangster granny. She was a gangster granny. So it was those things like will stick in my head and I thought okay I need to put those attributes in the book but you know I've never represented a serial killer so that's kind of my bucket list of cases I would have liked really yeah I love the fact you want to work on a serial killer case that's so weird I know I think it's

because I'm motivated I'm motivated by people and I want to know what motivates them. So even when I come up with my characters in the book with the serial killers, it's, you know, what makes you do the things that you do? But when it comes to other parts of the research, like the actual crime scenes and I'll say the post-mortem scenes, I know pathologists and I'll email them and ask them for information. But then they'll say, oh, do you want pictures? And I'll be like, no. Well, you do get quite gory in your description and quite violent in the scenes. Where is that inspiration coming from? It's not from the pictures, obviously. No, God, no, because I'm a bit of a chicken.

So I don't need to see the pictures, but I do have a very vivid imagination. But what I've also said in the past is that I think I'm able to write those scenes because I instantly go into criminal defence lawyer mode, so I just completely compartmentalise myself from it. And I'm just writing the scenes as a lawyer coming in, as a police officer coming in onto the crime scene, and seeing

the blood, seeing the body, and also showing the feelings. So what's next for you? There's an intriguing ending in this book, which I won't say anymore, but it definitely leaves it open to another investigation. There will definitely be a book four, because I'm working on book four right now. And yeah, I just hope to keep Detective Inspector Angelica Henley and the Serial Crimes Unit going for as long as possible.

Well, it's fantastic. Thank you so much, Nadine. Thank you. That's author Nadine Matheson. Her new book, The Kill List, is out tomorrow. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Now, lots of you, as Woman Hour listeners, know better than most how far women's sport has come in just the last few years alone. But with that advance comes the need for clear guidance

for female athletes and young girls who are playing that sport. The Well HQ is an organisation that was established to break down the barriers stopping women from succeeding in sports, as well as championing research and education. And they've just released a series of Safer Sport posters, which are to help women and girls know what is and what isn't OK when they're asked about female health. Well, the CEO and co-founder of the WellHQ, Baz Moffat, and former GB rower, of course, joins me now in the studio. Thank you so much for coming in, Baz. tell me about these safer sport posters where did the idea come from and

why did you feel you needed to do it yeah thanks very much for having me um the idea came from a project we were doing with the FA and we produced some training for their senior uh for their for their teams and we were sat around reviewing the content that we'd done and they've done a brilliant job of getting loads of different people around the table to kind of review this education that was going to be educating coaches and support staff in the elite game and someone's and someone just started there was a representative from safeguarding and they said oh like have we thought about safeguarding and we were like oh like not we haven't and yeah that was on us we hadn't thought about it and then we just started to think, goodness,

if you're starting to educate normal coaches around female health, then we have to make sure that girls and women feel safe when we're talking about periods and pelvic health and breast health. And so that's where the idea started. And we thought, well, let's go out there. Someone must have already done this and thought about this, but nobody had. And because no one had done it, we thought, well well we might as well do it you have to and when you talk about

you have to safeguard young people what are you talking about what do you need to prevent or warn or safeguard against yeah we don't want people to think that it's unsafe out there but what we need to make sure is that when girl when female health is being discussed, like when periods are being discussed, when different parts of female health is being discussed, that girls know what is and isn't okay for a coach to talk about, what isn't okay for a GP or a massage therapist to talk about. So the topics we've started with is pelvic health, sports bras and breast injuries.

Because when you're in the world of sport, if someone says to you, oh, go and get yourself a bra fitting. Actually, as a young girl, you might not know, like, do I need to take my top off or do they do it over my T-shirt? And so these bits of information just make sure that you know what is normal and what isn't normal. So that when you're experiencing anything with regards to female health in sport you can ask for more help. So for instance it would be some advice like you need to go and get a sports bra fitted that's okay but if your coach says let me measure your breasts that's not okay. Yeah absolutely that's absolutely right and I think that female health is unregulated and there isn't a qualification in female health. So anybody can call themselves a bra fitter or a menopause expert or a menstrual cycle coach.

And because and so because anyone can really call themselves that you don't you have to trust that person. And generally these people are absolutely brilliant and doing a fabulous job. But we just want to make sure that that people understand what is normal and what isn't so where will these places be displayed and how can people see them yes i mean they can they can download them off our website and we've had 400 people in the last two weeks download these posters which is fantastic we want them everywhere i think that the back of toilet doors is a classic place to put them so people can read them while while they're on the loo um but we want them in changing rooms in physio rooms in doctor's surgeries um in sports clubs so that it's just it's

just out there and normal for people to see this information and and who are you targeting with these posters because i've got one of them in front of me and and they're very good at talking about this one's about pelvic health assessment so talking about your pelvic floor how important it is to keep it strong check it it's even got a diagram talking about your pelvic floor, how important it is to keep it strong, check it. It's even got a diagram of where your pelvic floor is. And then it talks about who you can talk to. So your GP, your gynecologist. But it does say you can talk to your personal trainer and your sports coach.

But the language used is very subtle, if you don't mind me saying. It comes to the last page where it says you can refuse any assessment or treatment that you're not comfortable with. And you should always have a parent or guardian with you during a health assessment. For younger children, do they understand what they're comfortable with or, you know, what that means? Is it clear enough for young children to be able to say this is OK and this isn't?

I wouldn't expect pelvic health to be brought up when you're talking with young children. I think that really pelvic health only starts to be talked about when girls are kind of in their later teens. So I think that teenage girls would absolutely understand. So we're talking teenagers, young women. Girls in primary school, pelvic health, sports bras, breast examinations are not the kind of topics that are coming up in those settings. So what advice would you give young people? You know, if they find themselves in a situation like this, what can they take home from this conversation today? Or what can parents listening tell their young children, young teenagers, young women, what language can they use to know whether something's right or wrong or get out of a situation they're uncomfortable with?

I think talk, always bring it up. We need to normalise conversations around female health in the world of sport, because right now it seems there's quite a private and personal conversation that sport hasn't done a great job of talking about until quite recently. And so we just need to make that if you feel uncomfortable, it's not your fault and it's not something to do with you.

It's like talk to somebody that you trust and use whatever language you've got. But by us producing these posters with really accurate language, we're really hoping that everyone can start to talk in the right way and just raise issues sooner rather than later when they become a much bigger problem. And you're a former athlete yourself. What sort of difference do you think this information

would have made to you in your career? Yeah, I thought about this a lot. And who knows? Like I was on the British rowing team for four years. I didn't make it to the Olympic Games. I was absolutely part of a system. So I was just training on a system. My training wasn't optimised around,

like individualised for me. It worked for British rowing at the time and I I would love to have been an athlete now where I felt that I could learn about my menstrual cycle get fitted for a sports bra talk openly about things that at that stage when I was an athlete we absolutely couldn't talk about and yes everyone else would be talking about it so they'd all be better too but I'd love to have known like how good could I have been if I'd have tapped into the potential of the female elements of me which at that time I mean this is a long time ago now things have moved on but at that time just were never discussed within the world of sport. Really

so you in a way you'd have loved to have gone back in today's culture and seen how different it could be. Yeah. Gosh well it's interesting because today the IOC have launched a mindfulness program for all Olympic athletes competing in Paris. I don't know where you've seen it. They're basically sending out mental health support packs and allowing mental health support to go on for the next four years for anyone competing. What do you make of that? It's fun. I think it's really interesting how sport is evolving we have moved away from just being fully focused on high performance and medals and just getting this athlete to be stronger fitter faster and we're now starting to take responsibility for the holistic

athlete for the human being that is the athlete so anything that that looks after the athletes mental well-being her female health I just think it's brilliant. And I don't think it means that sport is soft or losing its focus. I think we've had too many stories of women especially doing irreparable damage to their bodies because of elite sport. And if you've been within a system of sport that's done that to you or you've been a part of that, then it's that sport's job to kind of like also look after you um you know when you retire or when you leave that sport well hopefully it will make the next generation even better than they can be but thank you so much baz thank you for coming on the show and if you do want to see the posters you can find them at the well hq website thank you very

much now to my final guest today because we're talking to writer and performer sabrina alley who plays doug c days and it's about four girls sat in a mosque in detention. They're stuck in darkness after a power outage. I previously mentioned the fact that we were talking about our detention stories in the Woman's Hour office and it got lots of people talking. Since then loads of you have been contacting us on social media and on the text messaging. Sue here has written a comment that says, many years ago, a grump of us, a group of us in our A-level Latin class told our Latin master that

we had to leave that morning for a dental inspection so we wouldn't be in class for our double lesson. There was no such inspection. We skipped off to town for the morning. But of course, our Latin master was a smart guy and on our return to school that afternoon, we received an invitation to one of his tea parties. This was his personal code for detention.

All one and a half hours of it. Incidentally, we passed our AS level Latin with top grades. So nothing was lost that morning. I love that story, Sue. And Andy says, detentions are an increasingly serious issue. At my son's school, detentions are given for things like looking at a clock, picking up a pencil without asking, or taking a a sip of water some kids are less able to control these normal impulses and their mental health can really suffer as a result that's a good point

thank you andy and another one here that says i was once i was once canned on my hand for having tuppence in my coat pocket and keeping money in the cloakroom was against the rules funny thing was that it wasn't my coat i borrowed my friend's coat to show my mother what a much-desired duffel coat it was. Well, I bet you never wanted the coat after that. Thank you so much for those and keep those coming in. They are amazing comments. And of course, Sabrina, who's created the play

and stars in the play, is in the studio with me. This play tells the time of these four girls trapped in a detention and they start to tell the tales of somali folk tales and bond in a modern day take on the breakfast club that 80s teen classic but in dougsy days performing now at the royal court until saturday the 18th of may sabrina alle who plays one of the four girls herself called manira is here thank you so much for coming into the studio. Thank you for having me.

Tell us about the play, first of all. The title, Dugsy, what does that mean? And give us a sense of what it means for these four girls. So Dugsy is almost like, I describe it almost like a Sunday school. So it's somewhere where we went every weekend and we learnt Quran and Islamic teachings. And Dugsy, for a lot of us growing up in the UK, it was almost like a community centre for us. So it's a shame.

I feel like it's almost dying out now because Doegse, sometimes a lot of the kids are doing it over Zoom or Google Meets and stuff like that. But Doegse is where I met a lot of my friends that I'm still really close with to this day. And I had a lot of my funniest memories and my best memories there. And is this play based on your experiences then? Yeah definitely it's based on my experiences and it's based on like the girls I met in Duxie as well so I really wanted to write something where audiences could come in they could reminisce on their times in Duxie so I feel like if you ask

anyone like who's a British Muslim like oh tell me about Madrasa or Duxie like they'll have so many stories to tell you and a lot of times they are funny stories. Well, I know you were inspired by The Breakfast Club, the 80s film classic. What in that film particularly resonated with you? You know, I watched it when I was younger and I re-watched it again, but when I was younger it really resonated with me

because I liked how they explored the different archetypes of teenagers and I feel like when I got into writing it was so fed up with like seeing the same stories like same two-dimensional characters on screen and like we could only ever play like one archetype so I was like how cool would it be to have four girls and force them in a room but just because they're Muslim or Somali like it doesn't mean that the best of friends like they're from completely different worlds but how can I force them into a space and

like the tension was like the perfect home for that and also Doxie. Yeah because it brings out those raw characters in the world doesn't it they're at their breaking point when this tension happens um but they also discuss Somali folktales and legends when they're sort of in the middle of a power cut in this evening um give us a flavour of those folktales and why you wanted to incorporate them into this play. Um so there like, I knew essentially that I wanted people to, like, take them back to memory lane. And one urban legend that we all grew up with was, like, the monkey girl. And, like, I found out, like, by talking to my friends

that we were all told different versions of this urban legend. Like, I was told that she turned into a monkey because, like, she wore her clothes backwards. And my other friend was told she turned into a monkey because she talked back to her mum. And, like, someone was, like, she turned into a monkey because she like, she wore her clothes backwards. And my other friend was told she turned into a monkey because she talked back to her mum. And, like, someone was like, she turned into a monkey because she was listening to music all the time. So I was like, it would be so funny if I, like,

bring back this old urban legend that we all grew up on and also the story of Dagder, which is essentially the BFG, but not very friendly. And, yeah, so it's so fun seeing the audience's reactions every single night, because as soon as I mention these stories there's like a collective oh that story like yeah like we remember that story like we were told that version but yeah that's what I wanted to do that's amazing it's so nostalgic but it but it's properly contentious it's set in the present and it's very much of a modern sort of

gen z girl exactly um you write it and you are in it. Yeah. Tell me why you decided to place yourself in it and why you felt like you needed to write yourself into this play. Because I started off acting. That was my main thing. I've always wanted to be an actress my whole entire life. So I grew pretty fed up after a while,

after going to so many auditions, playing the same roles. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to write myself into these roles. So when I was writing Duxedays or any other projects I'm writing it's almost inevitable that I'm also going to perform in them because that was my main passion and I was like, why not also perform in these stories? When you say you were getting fed up of playing the same roles,

what do you mean? Do you mean stereotypical? Yeah, a lot of stereotypes and tropes and stuff as well and I feel like the characters weren't really well looked after as well and like they weren't treated with like a lot of care and um it was I think I spoke to a lot of the cast as well in dooksy days and like a lot of girls who grew up in theatre and acting and like who were Muslim or black they say the same thing like well very it's very exhausting like playing these roles so I wanted to create something where these girls felt free to be themselves and they didn't have to worry

that they'd be portraying any negative tropes or stereotypes as well because I feel like how we see ourselves on stage, on the screen, is like how we see ourselves as well and how others see us. So it's so important how you portray these characters. It's brilliant that you've written these characters and you've managed to break those stereotypes. But is it not a shame that that's often what's only available to you definitely definitely I think a lot of time people think representation is about um who you have on

stage and like this like it's almost like like a tick box criteria like oh we have a Somali character like there's your representation but it's so much more about the people behind the scenes and behind the stage as well like the producers are like Somali and like we've had a Somali writer, like Somali cast and like everyone who's a part of Dukse Days genuinely believes in the story. And they're so passionate about the story. And like we all started off doing this like with little to no experience. But we had the support from Cade, which are almost like a Somali arts council. And it was as simple as I've got a story and Sa I were like um all right we'll give you the stage and like I spoke to Cade like how much do you need here's a venue but when I was learning to become a playwright I was speaking to other playwrights and it's not like that at all you have to jump through so many hoops and

they see you as a risk but Cade and like side eye and like the people behind Dux today they didn't see us that they genuinely believed in the story. And that's the reason that we're doing so well today because there's people behind, like, us who are rooting for us all the way. That's brilliant. But what do you think needs to be done to make that more accessible to all, particularly for Muslim characters? What would you like to see happen now? I think give us a chance.

And, like, also, they see us. I think sometimes people look at us like a risk as well. They're like, oh, we don't know if this is going to sell out because the majority of people who do come to the theatre are predominantly white and like middle class. It's like, why these stories? Like, are they going to pay to see these stories? But we've sold out every single time

and it's like a testament to our audiences. Like people want to see this and like theatre is about inviting people to your world so they could open up and they could learn and like they could engage with stories they've never seen before so the main thing I'd say is like trust us to share our stories and let us like share our stories the way we want to as well I think sometimes people come to see unrepresented characters on stage and they think they're going to get a particular type of story like a very meaningful deep like traumatic story but I'm

like it's a comedy like it's okay to see us existing in these comedies where we don't have to over explain or like disarm your stereotypes that you have about us so yeah I think it's about trusting us and just genuinely coming with an open mind. And how has that felt it's been such an amazing success like Dugsy Days has had an award-winning run at Edinburgh Fringe it's sold out in the national tour and now it's at the Royal Court where it opened the 2024 season so how does that success feel finally playing the part you've always wanted to play being the funny woman you've always imagined yourself yeah and it being a success it's amazing I say that the point where I genuinely felt most successful was when we were performing in Bristol Old Vic and we performed in front of a bunch of school kids and they genuinely loved it so much and they were so open enjoyable part for me and like going to see the theatre but a lot of time I wasn't engaged with a lot of stories we were seeing on stage so seeing a bunch of school kids really enjoy your work like that's

the most important thing for me like more than any other critic or what anyone else has to say like if the people I'm writing these stories for are loving it then I felt like I've made a successful play. Well I wish you every bit of luck. Thank you you it's already a success but I hope it goes on to be even more so thank you so much Sabrina thank you so much coming on and speaking about her play Dugsy Days and thank you so much for joining me this morning tomorrow on Woman's Hour the singer songwriter of the moment Rachel Chinnaruri performs live in the studio? And how do you discuss money in romantic and other relationships? Well, psychotherapist Vicky Raynall will be here to explain a lot more about that. And thank you so much for your comments this morning about your detentions.

They're still coming in and I've not got time to read them all, so I'm just going to read them in my own time because they're massively amusing. But Claire will be here tomorrow at 10am. Thank you very much for having me. Bye bye. Well, thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour on BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm Dr Michael Moseley. And in my BBC Radio 4 podcast, Just One Thing, I'm investigating some quick, simple and surprising ways to improve your health and life. So which will you try? Maybe playing a musical instrument to boost your brain power or a spoonful of olive oil to help your heart. How about doing some

volunteering to improve your immune system? So to benefit your brain and body in ways you might not expect, here's just one thing you can do right now. Subscribe to the podcast on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.