Woman's Hour - Safety of Women; Sarak Sak; Adjoa Andoh and Julie Cooper; Women on Coins; Adolescent Skin

Episode Date: January 12, 2022

Adjoa Andoh is British actor who has graced stage and screen and is perhaps best known as Bridgerton's Lady Danbury - but you may not be aware that in addition to being a director and producer she is also a writer. She has collaborated with the award-winning British composer Julie Cooper on the title track of a new album called Continuum. Julie wrote the music and Adjoa responded with a poem called "Hold out the Heart" capturing the emotions of the pandemic and timed to the ebb and flow of the music. Adjoa and Julie join Emma to talk about composing the album and their musical journey during lock down.This week the US Mint began circulating quarters honouring the writer, poet, performer and activist Maya Angelou. She is the first black woman to ever feature on a US coin. But four other women have also been commemorated by the American Women Quarters Program So why have they been chosen and what is the history of women appearing on coins? Ema Sikic is World Coins Specialist for Baldwins. Prime Minister, Boris Johnson is under pressure to state whether he broke his own Covid rules at PMQs with some of his own MPs venting their frustration to their consituents, the media and online. The Prime Minister has so far declined to say whether he attended a drinks party at Downing Street during lockdown in May 2020. But the journalist Claire Cohen has written about the wave of fury felt by some women about the fact that Sarah Everard was lured into a car by former Metropolitan police officer Wayne Couzens on the pretext that she had broken lockdown rules. A new app to protect women that has the backing of the Home Office has been criticised, Rhiannon Lucy Cosslett is a journalist who says it wouldn't have stopped her attacker. The BBC’s latest hard-hitting true crime drama, Four Lives, recounts how police failings led families to fight for justice after the so-called 'Grindr killer' Stephen Port murdered four young men. Emma is joined by Sarah Sak, the mother of the serial killer’s first known victim Anthony Walgate and who is played by Sheridan Smith in the three-part series.Skin issues in adolescence can shape lives. Dr Tess McPherson is the current president of the British Society of Paediatric and Adolescent Dermatology (BSPAD) and an NHS dermatologist working in Oxford. She has developed a specialist service for adolescents to support their skin and the psychological impact of their conditions, which has been running for 10 years. Maia Grey is an acne positivity blogger who is now 27 but has lived with acne since her early teens.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. Shortly we're going to be discussing the mounting fury from some women regarding a specific element linked to that Downing Street party for which Boris Johnson is preparing to answer questions about at noon during Prime Minister's Questions. We'll also be reflecting the dismay from certain women and women's groups about a so-called women's safety app backed by the Home Office. But what I wanted to ask you today was regarding women and coins, because for the first time in American

history, a black woman is going to feature on a coin, the writer and activist Maya Angelou. This comes as the US Mint commemorates four other women as part of the American Women Quarters Programme. Of course, I'm sure you'll remember the campaign in this country to have more women on banknotes. But which woman would you put on a coin if you had such powers? It could be a woman in your life, a woman you know now, a woman you knew earlier on in your life, or a famous individual, a famous woman. Who would it be and why? Who would you like to see?

You may not be using coins as much as you used to, or certainly perhaps not even at all after the pandemic. For some of us, cash has gone out the window. For others, it's still very much part of our day-to-day life. Who would you put on a coin? What woman would you have there and why? We're going to be hearing all about that history and the association of women and coins, all to come on the programme. But I'd love your take on this, please. Your purchase, as it were. 84844 is the number you need to text. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, your suggestions, please,

at BBC Women's Hour. And do tell us the reasons as well. Or you can email me through the Women's Hour website. I'll also be joined today by the actor and writer Ajoa Ando, probably most famous as Bridgerton's Lady Danbury, but for many other roles too. She's here today with the composer Julie Cooper about a piece of music they worked on during lockdown. But Ajoa also worked with and has played Maya Angelou. So I'm also looking forward to hearing her reaction to that news about the coin in America. All that to come on today's programme. So stay with us for that. But first, the prime minister is under pressure to state whether he broke his own Covid rules.

At prime minister's questions today, questions will be flying about this. Some of his own MPs now venting frustration to their constituents, the media, online, on their social media accounts. The Prime Minister so far declined to say whether he attended that drinks party at Downing Street in the Garden on the 20th of May in 2020 at the height of lockdown one. Now, the journalist Claire Cohen has written about a specific element of this with regards to the wave of female fury felt by some women in London. Claire, good morning. Good morning, Emma. What's the element that you've picked up on with regards to Sarah Everard, actually?

Yes, I mean, for so many women, the defining event of the lockdowns in the last year was the kidnap and murder of Sarah. And I live in South London, really close to where that happened. So it's something, you know, I kind of walked past that spot many days during the week. It's something that haunts me. And I know many other women feel the same. And a lot of them have used that word in reply to me on social media. And while lockdown rules didn't take her life, you know, a police officer abusing his position with the intention to kidnap and murder a young woman took her life. When I read about this latest number 10 party, my mind went straight back there because it was those Covid rules that gave the police those powers to stop people, to find people, to potentially arrest people. You know, it was it was that time when it was unlawful to sit on park benches.

You know, we were all sort of living in this strange atmosphere of fear in many ways. And it was Wayne Cousins who was able to use those same lockdown rules we're discussing in relation to the number 10 party to lure Sarah into his car. And the point for me also is that she believed that had she bent or broken any rules, she clearly believed, because she got into the car, that she deserved to face the consequences. And I just can't help thinking how agonising it must be now for her family and friends to see our leaders brush off their own bending or potential breaking of those same rules, when clearly their daughter believed that she had questions to answer over having broken them potentially herself. Yes, it was a very specific circumstance. Of course, just important to make the distinction when we're talking about what happened to Sarah Everard. It was last year. This particular party refers to 2020, the year before.

But of course, we've had several successive lockdowns with those measures and those rules being refreshed again within Parliament and being reinforced, as it were. And I think that link there that you're making is one that perhaps has been in some people's minds, perhaps it's not been in others, which is why we wanted to talk to you this morning, because, you know, having those powers at your disposal, in fact, some of the critics of lockdown measures has been the potential abuse of those powers. Yes. And of course, the other great incident around Sarah Everard was that vigil when we saw those powers, many would say, being abused again. You know, I mean, I was there and in my opinion, it was perfectly peaceful until the Met started to escalate things. But, you know, it was MPs were told after that, that the visual was proportionate and the

next response had been proportionate because the COVID laws had to be policed consistently. I mean, how hollow those words sound now when we're finding out about what went on in Downing Street. In terms of the, as you say, a defining moment and series of moments with other women who lost their lives over the last couple of years as well. And of course, what went on with Biba Henry and Nicole Smallman and the police officers and their abuse of which they are now being punished of taking images of the sisters. We've had Mina Smallman, their mother on the programme to talk about that and their subsequent conviction. But when you talk about that defining time and safety, I think the action that is required to change society and the way things are now is coming out twofold. And the government have responded with an inquiry into Sarah Everard's death. There's criticism of that because it's not statutory. I know you've got something to perhaps contribute on that. But one of the other responses in a bid to make women feel safer is from technology. Specifically,

there's a new app called Path Community, which has been endorsed by the Home Office. Again, that doesn't, Claire, seem to be hitting the right note with some women. Well, it's not a solution, Emma, is it? That's the thing, you know, we already do the things that this Path Community app is suggesting, you know, it's supposed to help women have their friends and family track their journeys home. We all do that anyway, you know, we send our friends the I'm home safe message, you know, if we're travelling by taxi and we're able to share that journey, we do it. You know, we walk home with our keys in the palm of our hands, we're already setting these own rules around our own journeys home. And it's just a sticking plaster and it just places the blame on women, doesn't it? And it doesn't tackle the root cause of any

of this at all. Just a final word, because I want to ask another writer who's specifically spoken about the app for her take in just a moment, based also on her own experience. But you mentioned there women getting in touch with you after what you've written. It's actually in the Evening Standard, of course, a London-based publication, with regards to Sarah Everard, those rules, and now what we're hearing about Downing Street and parties at the height of lockdown, lockdown one, certainly, and then they've continued other allegations around Christmastime and thereafter. What are women saying to you?

Oh, just a tidal wave of fury and indignation. Some of them have mentioned the inquiry, which you just brought up yourself, and how that's still non-statutory, which, I mean, has all sorts of consequences, but it essentially means that not all the evidence will necessarily be on the table, that whistleblowers won't be protected. Priti Patel saying it's to get answers for Sarah Everard's family sooner, and the first phase will conclude this year. But I'm sure that they would want all the answers which a statutory inquiry could provide. Others actually making a very good point. You mentioned, of course, that this party we're talking about was in 2020. And of course,

Sarah Everard was kidnapped in 2021. But actually, some women have said to me, well, if you cast your mind back to May 2020, that was a time when we were seeing those domestic abuse numbers rising horrifically. And that was because women were following the rules and staying behind closed doors in potentially abusive households and relationships. And so there was kind of horrors unfolding behind closed doors as well. So there are so many elements of anger that this has sparked. And it's just, I'm just experiencing a tidal wave of outrage. Claire Cohn, thank you very much for talking to us all.

Rhiannon Lucy-Coslett, a journalist who's written specifically today about that Home Office-backed safety app. Good morning. Good morning. Why did you feel moved to write about it? I think, you know, it made me cast my mind back to my own attack 10 years ago, where I was strangled by a stranger on a dark London street. And I kind of thought, would this app have saved me?

And the answer is absolutely, categorically, no, it would not. And I think, you know, it's also of the ilk you know I've been I've been a journalist writing about violence against women for a long time now and I've seen initiative after initiative that claims that it will solve this problem and these things tend to put the onus on women themselves um you know from anti-rape underwear to straws that in your drink will tell you whether you've been spiked or not, to rape alarms. You know, this is just the latest in a whole kind of line of things that never seem to solve the underlying problem, which is violence against women from men. And it's very frustrating and it's very anger making, you know, to have had this

happen to me and to still see it happening and to still see nothing really being done. If I may, was any action able to be taken in your case? Yes, in my case, the person, the man who attacked me went to prison for four years. I do believe that I could have died or and that it could have been a lot worse had I not used self-defense and I do believe in self-defense but again I don't think that self-defense is is the only solution I think you know uh we need to we need to shift the onus onto men in in my case an off-duty police officer actually heard my screams and phoned it in so in a very similar way to the app the police were aware that a woman was being attacked but you know we all know that these

things can take very little time and you know the police didn't arrive in time I think they arrived about two hours later in the end um so it just goes to show that kind of texting your family members who then have to check in on you who then might contact the police it's just not you know as as an idea it's wrong-headed to begin with you know well i was just going to say around if people aren't familiar this this app as i mentioned path community provides anyone walking at home uh at night with a monitored route on their phone if the walker moves more than 40 minutes from the route or stops for more than three minutes the app asks if they are okay. If there's no reply, nominated guardians,

normally friends and family, receive a notification on their phones to say there's been a deviation. There's also this element of women needing to be tracked, women needing to be under some kind of surveillance for their own safety, which has made others feel, again, the onus is wrong. And actually, in some

ways, kind of creepy. Yeah, I mean, it's very dated. It's kind of the idea that you need someone to come to your rescue, probably a man, even the language itself, you know, it talks about guardians is kind of loaded and patronising, really. I just think it's a PR exercise. It's not going to solve the problem that, you know, Claire was talking about in her segment. I just think it's yet another example of women being patronised with headline-friendly solutions, which actually do nothing to solve the underlying issue. What do you make of the Home Office Minister, Rachel McLean,

who we have invited onto the programme? I sincerely hope that she is able to join me this week. And we had hoped perhaps for today. Of course, there's other things going on in the Conservative Party at the moment. And we'll see perhaps if she joins tomorrow. But she has said that such schemes should be part of a wider plan to make streets safer for women and girls. Some detail on that front. Certainly, I know, you know, certain things are up to local authorities and how they spend their money obviously have include better street lighting and around some of the issues about how the sort of maintenance of those streets are kept and safer areas generally. Again, I just wanted to ask if that is part of a wider suite of measures. What would you like to see that isn't being done?

I mean, I think more street lighting is always going to be a good thing but again it's and it might make women feel safer safer but that doesn't necessarily mean that they will be safer likewise more police on the streets I mean well you know the police haven't exactly covered themselves in glory in the last couple of years I don't know if they necessarily do make women feel safer they don't particularly make me at the moment um so what I'd like to see is I'd like to see some I think pornography is a massive uh factor in it I'd like to see some some work being done on that especially you know violent pornography I think that um apprehending the kind of men who attack women earlier for example you know for things like indecent exposure

that was not obviously picked up on in the case of Sarah Everard. That's very, very concerning. Just general better education of young men about about consent and about violence against women. Well, Rhiannon, I was just going to say, if I can, and I certainly don't mean to make it feel like it's your job to figure this stuff out. But of course, you've given it some thought. I don't want to give women more work to do on this front. But it's interesting that while we're talking, a man has got in touch. A man called Jez has messaged in to say we should be creating apps to track us men, not women. Somehow, I think even suggesting that would focus some men's minds. Well, indeed, it's a very good point, isn't it?

And I think it really highlights what I've been saying about the onus being placed on women um you know why don't we turn the spotlight on men for a change and you know just as one final point in answer to your question I think men need to be more involved in this conversation because as you say even by me having to come up with solutions it's us talking about this now you know what are men doing we need more solidarity from men we need more support from men we're not saying that all men are potential rapists there are good men out there who can you know make changes in their own lives when they see certain behaviors from their own friends and their own colleagues and their own

peers you know in the police force there were men who were aware that this behavior was going on in the case of sarah everard but you know they did nothing yes indeed i think well that's a that's a focus obviously at the moment of the um of those who police the police uh trying to talk about people within the police coming forward and and shopping bad behavior as it were i also remember just in in reference to your question there about what about some of the men getting involved in this conversation. We did actually have a special episode of Woman's Hour in the days and weeks that followed,

the details of what happened to Sarah emerging with men, talking about these sorts of thoughts and these sorts of solutions and doing exactly as you say. So people, if they are interested, can, of course, go back to that and listen to it on BBC Sounds. But that conversation is not limited, of course, to that day and nor should it be. Rhiannon, Lucy Coslet, thank you very much for your time and feeling you could share your experiences on air this morning. A message here from Heather, who says all these apps and gadgets for women to pay for or download or spend time using to circumscribe ourselves and monitor our movements.

No, we are not the problem. Masculinity and perpetrators' choices and impunity are the problem. Tag the men, not the women. Again, a similar message to that of Jez. He'd got in touch just before. Thank you very much for those messages. I have to say also many messages coming in with regards to the women that you would nominate

to go onto a coin. Lindsay Robinson just says, Virginia Woolf, quite simply. And this one that's come in on Twitter says, I'd like to see the amazing Professor Sarah Gilbert, at least on a 50p or even better, a two pound coin. Of course, she of vaccine fame and to whom we owe so much in this country and around the world. I like the fact that the value of the coin has also been suggested,

the most valuable one to be out there. And another one, dear woman's hour, Rosa Parks would be a suitable and well deserved face for any modern coin. Her peaceful manner and dignity shown during the civil rights movement and inspiring bus boycott should never be forgotten. Love, Victoria. Thank you for that. Well, we'll come into that discussion about coins shortly. But first, my next guest, who you'll probably be most familiar with, or perhaps you're very familiar with the rest of her work, but perhaps most familiar with her in Bridgerton as Lady Danbury.

I'm talking about a Joa Ando. But in addition to being an actor and a director and a producer, she's also a writer and has collaborated with the award-winning British composer, Julie Cooper, on the title track of a new album called Continuum. The album was composed during lockdown. Of course, we've been casting our minds back to lockdown

with the news around this Downing Street party and how life was then and was very different for most people. Adjoa wrote a poem capturing the emotions of the pandemic, which are the words you'll hear on this track when we play a clip shortly. They both join me now. A warm welcome and good morning, Julie and Ajeera. And Julie, I was just going to start with you by saying,

where did the idea for the album come about? Good morning. Well, it kind of evolved really out of us all absolutely stopping still at the end of March in 2020 and just being so affected by the silence and what was going on and all the emotions we were all feeling. And I was in the middle of writing concert work for the soprano Grace Davidson at St Martin Fields,

which obviously then got cancelled, and just finding a home for things and musicians' diaries and actors' diaries getting wiped and uh I just started to started to write a piece of music called dawn which because we were all hearing how loud the birds were because there were no airplanes in the sky and and it evolved into a suite of four movements, Dawn, Day, Dusk, Dream. And then the whole album started to evolve out of that, really. And we were still in the lockdowns. Well, I know you've known Adora for some time, but Adora, how did you get involved with this?

And why did you feel like you wanted to contribute? So Julie Cooper and I, we met working for a socialist feminist small-scale touring company in 1985 called Theatre Centre and a play was written by an amazing writer-director called Nona Shepard, who is the Queen of Rada now. And so Julie was taken on as the touring musician and I was playing a galumphing series of characters and so we've known each other since 1985 we've toured in America in Canada in Italy and then we had big periods where we didn't see each other at all anyway Julie is the most amazing composer and we sort of kept in touch tangentially and And then I wrote a thing for the Today programme called Points of Light.

They were doing a series. They were just getting various people to do four minutes of wittering about how the pandemic had affected them. And Julie heard the piece that I'd written. She got in touch with me. She was composing something. I love orchestras. I wanted to work with her again and so this has sort of come out of that proactive

action by my friend here. Well, do you know what, there's nothing worse than hearing people talk about music but not actually hearing it and not knowing what the work is about. So let's play a bit and then we can talk some more afterwards. Let's hear an excerpt of the title track of Continuum now. The universe. A river of light. Of stars and planets long since gone. Their echo singing and shimmering to us In the star-bright night Beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

I want to listen to the whole thing, but I want to also be able to talk to you. Jo, the words there, the poem, draws on some of your experiences of lockdown. And actually, in the last couple of days, we've been hearing people remember what they weren't able to do. What were you struck by and minded to mention? Well, it's interesting.

It sort of speaks a bit into what you were talking to your other guests about this morning. There's a bit in the poem that later on that just talks about we speak up, we speak out, we witness, we ask. And, you know, if we can house the homeless in a pandemic, why can't we just house them? If we can extend financial support, why can't we just support? You know, there's all these sorts of things. And I remember I was on that that demo at Clapham Common when, you know, after Sarah Everard was was murdered.

And I also remember Dolly Henry and Bieber Smallman. And we're going to talk about Maya Angelou. Well, their mother requested Still I Rise, a Maya Angelou poem, when she was on the radio last week. So I think for me what happened was there was a layer of skin that's come off all of us during the pandemic. And so people are more angry, they're more hurt, they're more fearful, they're more generous, they're more intimate. You know,

we're all sort of all our emotions are more at the moment. And I feel that that was a big reveal for me during the pandemic. So we're more, you know, we are outraged about things. This is the whole party gate banana at the moment. People are genuinely distressed and people are genuinely more available to be outraged about the treatment of women and fearing violence. And we're genuinely more generous and caring of people we didn't bother with before. I think what's interesting about this, Julie,

and you mentioned the peacefulness, even if your job, because I'm very aware some people's lives and everything came to a halt, some people stayed exactly the same or got busier. If you worked in the NHS, there was no moment for thinking more or having some of those feelings that you're talking about. But I think that moment of peace

and being able to hear the birds and all those sorts of things was there for everyone, even if you got home from a busy shift. And I just wonder, actually, if what you're saying, Jo, is true, you know, if it will stay, if people will remain changed, because or was that just a moment of change then? I don't know what you thought about that when you were making the music Julie? I think they will remain changed and less accepting of things that were brushed under the carpet before and I think everybody has heightened emotions now and I think they discovered through through that silent time we had so much time for thought and thinking and thinking about your own people around you and suffering um awareness is extraordinary since then um you know and and also the awareness of of what what the nhs staff were going through um during that time and how it has affected their mental

health since and their lives will never be the same again. So, yeah, I think it's an awareness. I think also... Oh, the line is just so... I know, I'm much more of a twitcher of a birdie person now. Oh, yeah. Go on, sorry. Jo, your line slightly glitched there. You're much more of a twitcher.

Much more of a twitcher. So I think this sort of awareness is it's come in all sorts of ways you know I've got my bird feeder out there and I'm waiting for me gold finches oh look oh they're all in you know so all that stuff is marvelous and just you know I think it's about just becoming alert to stuff I'm finding enormous comfort in standing and looking at the stars or... The universe. The universe. Respecting it. Indeed, Julie. Yes. So I think there's been lots of strange wins

as well as terrible losses. Well, it's a lovely way to put it. And you have a way with words, as we are hearing and have just heard. And I do actually, I really remember, you call it wittering, but I really remember your reading on the Today programme. I think those moments were very important to hear others putting things into words if you were finding it hard to try and process what was going on around you. Music also so important at all times, but especially during very strange times. We're going to stay as part of our next discussion because I did mention about the US Mint, which is going to begin circulating quarters,

honouring the writer, poet, performer and activist Maya Angelou. And she's the first black woman to feature on an American coin. So many of you have been getting in touch with who else you put on coins, which women you would. I'll come back to those messages in a moment. Four other women have also been commemorated as part of the American Women Quarters Programme. Emma Sikich is a world coin specialist for Baldwins and joins me now. And I'll come back to her in just a moment. But Emma, how did the US Mint decide who they were going to honour? Good morning. It's a pleasure to join. Thank you for inviting me.

So this is a very dear topic to me, actually. And the decision process for this American Women Quarters program is quite extensive, actually. And as you know, they've gotten a lot of names submitted for this very important landmark in American numismatics. So obviously, they relied on a lot of experts from the Smithsonian American Women's History Initiative, National Women's Museum of History as well, as well, you know, as certain citizens panels to decide which women will be featured on these coins. There is a lot of firsts to cover in American numismatics. So I think, you know, they really had a lot to choose from. And for this first,

let's say round, because this is a programme that will be going on from 2022 until 2025. I think the first five are really, really important. You keep saying numismatics, the study or collection of currency, including coins, token, paper, money, medals, related objects. It's a great word that's now in my vocabulary. I'm very grateful for that. It's very firmly in yours with what you do for a living, but just in case others didn't know. Adira, to bring you into this, quite a moment for Maya Angelou and those who care so many do about her work. And I know you've played her in the BBC Radio 4 dramatisation of her autobiography, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings,

and also worked with her back in the 80s. What do you make of this moment? What do you think she'd make of it? Well, you know, do you remember she delivered the inaugural address for Bill Clinton? I think she's part of the fabric of America. So absolutely, she should be literally, physically part of the fabric of America. So absolutely, she should be literally physically part of the fabric of America. And a coin is a wonderful, commonly used object and something that can provoke discussion and interest in that way.

So I think this is a I think it's a sort of long overdue, terrific idea um and uh you know the the uh the contribution to the um the flourishing of america of um uh enslaved and trafficked people to its shores of whom mayangelo was a descendant um it it should be celebrated the contribution should be celebrated and she has in her extraordinary life you know she was a ghana ambassador. She worked with the civil rights people. She's a she loved young women. She'd love to encourage them. She was she was all about, you know, uplift. You know that that there's still I rise poem where she says, you know, you may write me down in history with your bitter, twisted lies. You may trod me in the very dirt, but still like dust, I'll rise. I mean, that's a huge encouragement for anybody who's feeling trodden down like dust.

And she had a difficult life. You know, she was mute from seven to 11 because she'd been raped by somebody. And she overcame extraordinary things and produced this amazing body of work and then became this great source of profound encouragement and joy. There's footage of her in the 80s. I think she's in Deptford and she's doing a concert. The theatre is packed with women just in gales of laughter. She swaggers and she shimmers and she shines and she sings and she recounts stories and she is full of laughter so there's something so wonderful about the extraordinary breadth of her life and that joy and creativity and fellowship that she made people feel like

they were connected and valuable oh what a what a wonderful portrait you paint uh thank you for taking us across so many different parts there joejoa, thank you for also talking, of course, about your own creations today. Ajoa, Andrew, I'm sure we'll talk again soon. All the best. To come back then to the others who are commemorated, Emma, these other women who are going to appear on quarters later this year, do we know all of them?

Who are they? We definitely know all of them. Oh, gosh. Emma, I'm so so sorry technology is a bit of my enemy this morning i am just hoping we can fix some of the glitches on that line because we don't want to just hear half of a name and half of a story emma do try again who are the other women who will appear so the other women who will appear will be Dr Sally. Yes, well, we are hoping to be able to get you back up on the phone while we sort out that. So do bear with us and forgive us for some of these glitches this morning.

But with regards to coins and people that you, and women specifically, that you would very much like to to be able to see commemorated at any time uh message here that's come in i would like to suggest dame cecily saunders who founded the hospice movement her influence has been massive and vitally important today and forever transforming end-of-life care and making it so much more sensitive and helpful for millions of people and their families. Jo, thank you very much for that message. And a lot of people, I'm sure, would agree with that, certainly at the moment as well, with care, of course, never being far from our thoughts.

And I love this one here because you've also suggested, this is from Julie, somebody you know, as opposed to just not just the famous women, but of course they come famous for often very good reasons in the way that the women you're getting in touch about. But this from Julie is about my friend Maureen, as she puts it, commemorated on a coin. I knew her only for a few years before she passed away. And in that time, she comforted and consoled me when my mum died. Other times she made me laugh out loud

and I was so often left with a sense of love and appreciation for knowing her. She joined the women's protesters at Greenham Common and drove her van to provide food for the striking miners. What a girl. I miss her. And Marianne says, I'd vote for Tracey Emmett, bringing women's personal issues to light with her amazing art and bravery in the face of devastating medical issues recently.

Yes, I remember my interview with her last year very well indeed. So many of you responded at the time. Emma Sikich, the world coin specialist for Baldwin's is back. Emma, hello. You were telling us who else are on those coins. Hello. Thank you for having me back and apologies for the interruptions. So basically other women that will be on coins in 2022 on these quarters will be Dr. Sally Ride, which I've mentioned before. I'm not sure if you heard me fully. So she's the first American woman in space,

a very famous astronaut and a physicist. Another woman will be Wilma Mankiller, who is the first female principal chief of the Cherokee Nation. Then we have Nina Otero-Warren, who was a leader of Mexico's suffrage movement, very important for the Santa Fe educational system. And finally, we have Anna May Wong, who is known as the first Chinese-American film star in Hollywood. She reached international fame,

yet still she struggled with a lot of discrimination in her day, which ultimately led her to leaving the country. So, as I said, there is a lot of firsts in this American Women's Quarters program. And obviously, behind this program, behind this initiative, there is also a woman, Democratic Representative Barbara Lee, who actually was behind the circulating Coin Redesign Act of 2020, and she's been working on it since 2017. And in some of her statements, she emphasized that she wanted these women recognized

on a medium that traditionally recognizes men. What would you say to those listening who do question how important or why it's important to have women on coins? Do people even look at coins, their currency? You know, they may not have the same fascination that you have. That is true. However, the coins, the circulating coins especially, throughout history since the very first women on coins

have been a very important method of propaganda, of sending political messaging, of recognising one's endeavours and achievements. So to have, you know, these women's fest this late, sort of in time, but still it's quite remarkable. It's, as I said, it's credit due and long overdue. Are there lots of women working in coins, collecting coins in the field of numismatics?

Not yet, I would say. There are lots of women collectors and women specialists. There is, you know, some of us, we're certainly getting there. And I'd like to say that each year there is more and more women working in the field of numismatics. What got you into it? Well, I'm an archaeologist and an art historian. So I sort of started with ancient coins, Greek and Roman. And for me, coins were the most valuable thing you can find an archaeological dig because it would, you know, date an entire stratum very, very precisely. So in terms of archaeological remains, they're invaluable. There's something, you know, that we leave behind. And for portraiture is incredibly

important because we only know how certain important historical people look like because of the coins. Never thought about that. Many portraits that you can rely on and something that were kept because, of course, of the value. Emma Sukic, thank you very much for your expertise there and taking us through this story. Who would you put on a coin and why? Keep your messages coming in 84844. Which woman would you pick, either in your own life or someone very well known? A message that came in straight away that I didn't quite manage to read out yet when I asked this question.

Jane Goodall is who I put on a coin, an amazing lifelong conservationist, activist and scientist who has impact globally. I very much enjoyed talking to her not long after I joined the programme. So yes, you have got some of the same sort of people coming in and then there's a huge variety as well. And don't be afraid to suggest those in your own life as well. But do tell us why, do let us know the reason when you get in touch. Now you may have seen the BBC's latest true crime drama, Four Lives. It follows the tragic murders of four young gay men between 2014 and 15 by the serial killer and rapist Stephen

Port. Port met his victims on gay and bisexual dating apps before luring them to his flat, where he gave them lethal doses of the date rape drug GHB. He then left their bodies near his home in Barking, East London, but the police didn't piece the murders together, despite striking similarities, I should say. The three-part series re-enacts the police investigation, which was so fundamentally flawed that last month an inquest jury found that it probably contributed to three of the four deaths. I'm now joined by Sarah Sachs from Hull. Her son, Anthony Walgate, a 23-year-old fashion student at the time,

was the first victim in this sequence of murders. If you have seen the programme or if you haven't, she's played very powerfully by Sheridan Smith in this series. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you very much for joining us today and being able to talk to us about something I know that is very important to you, but mustn't be easy every time you do try and talk about this. Four Lives is a very powerful programme and it actually makes damning television about those who are meant to protect and serve us.

Yeah, exactly. And we all felt strongly that we wanted this to be shown. And I think it's been absolutely portrayed perfect. Absolutely. I mean, it's nowhere near what we actually went through. But three hours is not long enough to put seven years into, you know, the public's eye. So I've actually written a book, which is a lot more intense, which is out the 17th of next month. It's called A Life Stolen. There's a lot more detail in there because I really do think that this story needs to keep being told, you know,

so that it doesn't happen again. Yes, and what I wanted to do, if I can, was to go back because I believe you feel that if this was young women and you feel that homophobia played a part in the links being made and if it had been young women that perhaps the police could have been quicker to make those links. Absolutely, absolutely. I've always said that from the beginning i mean um if anthony had been

a young girl 23 found dumped in the street i do really do believe that you know there'd have been a lot more of an investigation and then the other three boys in such close proximity if that would have been girls you know it'd have been all over the media. There'd have been a lot more interest in it. Yes, I mean, in a statement from the Met, they do say, we are deeply sorry there were failings in the police response to the murders. We give our heartfelt apologies.

All those who loved Anthony, Gabriel, Daniel and Jack expected a professional and thorough police investigation into their deaths. And it is a great sadness to everybody at the Met this didn't happen. It's absolutely not right. The friends and families had to produce their own information about the deaths. We would have expected the officers to have listened to all concerns and investigated them properly and in an organisation of over 44,000 people there will be a small number with attitudes and beliefs that are not welcome in the Met. We will challenge, educate and discipline.

We are working hard to develop our network of LGBT plus police advisors to support communities. We know there's more to do. What would you say to that? Yeah, when I spoke to Professor de Dick, I'd actually said, you know, when somebody rings the police, they expect some knight in shining armour to come to help, protect, you know, and look after them. And none of us got that. It was absolutely appalling.

The liaison officer was rude, ignorant. It really does need looking at properly. and i don't want this to go away i don't want you know once i've stopped about the drama i mean that was so well received and i'm receiving a lot of messages on social media from young gay lads their families saying you know oh god i use these apps i'm going to be so careful. I'm going to stop using them. And I just want people to be safe. I don't want this to happen again. No.

And I think, you know, in terms of when there is a drama, it's a risk, isn't there? It's a risk that the story is presented correctly and the way that you're treated as part of it. I know you were consulted. The way that you're depicted. I mean, I imagine, though, at the same time, it's been very triggering for you to see this

and to watch this, even if it couldn't tell every aspect. Oh, yes. I mean, when they'd actually made it, we all watched it, you know, but it was more from a critical point of view. It wasn't like watching a drama. We were watching each sort of segment thing. And this time time I watched it

again and it broke my heart to be quite honest it really did it was it was especially I mean the scenes with Anthony and his um you know doing his fashion show and that the the young lad Tim who portrayed Anthony was just absolutely so much like him and when I met him he sort of come running up to me waving his arms about and you know and gave me a big hug well that was it because you know it that was Anthony's every time when he got excited his arms would go like calm down you know and yes it was sad and Sheridan just got me to a tee. Everything, everything she did, even even the playing with her hair, it's saddened me constantly and the swearing. And it was strange watching how I sort of got through it.

And, you know, my emotions as she portrayed it, it was really quite upsetting watching it again. And I imagine also, you know, from her perspective, it's a huge pressure to make sure she does you justice. Yes. And you will have had those conversations. Yes, we did. And she said, you know, it's so much more pressure than just playing a role. If I'm just playing a role, I can, you know, do it however I want to do it. when I'm playing a person and we met several times and

had some good talks and and I personally think she did an amazing job she really did you know capture me. Is it important to you as well that there is that that joyful commemoration and depiction of Anthony in that way as well that that there is that part of him reflected. Definitely. I mean, he always, always said that one day he'd be famous. He'd get his name up in lights. And he said that from being about 14. And he is famous now, but for not a nice reason.

So I think, yeah, that little bit, you know, the first couple of minutes showing that was him, he was so full of life, you know, he loved his friends, he was living his best life in London. So I think that really is important to show that bit, you know, and show him his human side. Yes, and I read that he would call you for a good hour to tell you absolutely everything that was going on. It sounded like he was a very entertaining entertaining he had the most strangest sense of humour

you've ever met I mean I understand it the study but a lot of other people didn't because I mean I'm sure he would be

if I may go as far as to say I'm sure he'd be incredibly proud of you and the fight that you have fought to make sure that there is justice

right through to the telling of this story to speaking to young gay men about what's going on in their lives trying to make sure as you just said right at the telling of this story to speaking to young gay men about what's going on in their lives trying to make sure as you just said it right at the start of our conversation that it doesn't happen again but but i mean how are you doing now because when you've had to fight there also can sometimes be a bit of a lag as to how you you grieve and how you cope yeah i think

to be honest the fighting has helped me grieve and because it's been so long we're going into the eighth year now and so I've never really had time to sort of stop and think there's always either I've been doing you know interviews getting ready for the the court case getting ready for the inquest writing my book everything just, and that is a little bit of a worry once all this has stopped. You know, the interviews, the books come out, you know, and I'm sort of like, what do I do now? That to me is the worry bit of, you know, the end game where there'll be nothing to do. Well, it's very, very important to hear your voice today because, of course, you're being depicted

and there is a real woman and a whole cast of real people behind the series, which people will have been tuning into in their millions. You know, Four Lives is the name of it. But it's also, I think, really lovely and important to hear about Anthony from his mum and remember him. Thank you. Thank you so much. Sarah there, Sarah Sachs, talking about Anthony from his mum and remember him. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Sarah there, Sarah Sachs, talking about Anthony, her son Anthony Walgate, and of course with reference to that particular crime drama, which you can see on the iPlayer, you can catch back up with it, it's called Four Lives. And of course also with regards to the latest on that and the latest on the statement from the police, all of that publicly available to catch up with. And of course, the book that is coming up as well that you were just hearing about from Sarah, All To Come Still. So thank you to her for her time this morning. Now, over the last couple of weeks, we've been hearing from women on the programme dealing with

scars from Amy, who lives with psoriasis, Emily on self-harm scars, Jane, who recovered from a flesh-eating bug, and Laura, a burns survivor. And you can hear all of those features on BBC Sounds if you just search for Woman's Hour and the related words. But many of them had experienced life-changing events which had affected their skin. But of course, skin issues are a normal part of many of our lives, especially in adolescence. And this led to Dr Tess McPherson getting in touch with the programme after hearing some of those pieces.

She's the current president of the British Society of Paediatric and Adolescent Dermatology and an NHS dermatologist working in Oxford. She's developed a specialist service for adolescents to support skin and psychological impact, which has now been running for 10 years and recently published a book on this. Maya Gray is an acne positivity blogger and her handle on social media is at It's Just Acne. Maya, I actually thought I'd start with you, if I can, because the way that you describe yourself beyond your social media handle is as just a girl with acne helping you love the skin you are in. But it's not that straightforward, Maya, is it? No, it's not. I've suffered with acne since I was 13 years old.

And originally it was just on my forehead. I didn't think too much of it until a girl in my class at my school commented on my skin. Then obviously, you know, everything, my acne got worse and I was severely bullied from that moment. I'd spend most of my time in the girls' bathroom eating my lunch, which is not the most hygienic place to eat, but it was that bad, the bullying. And I think many people tend to think acne is something that just affects the skin it definitely doesn't it can affect your mental health as well um so that's how it's just acne came about because I just I know what it's like to have acne and I just want to tell people

that or if somebody knows somebody that has acne that they're not alone in this. And your photos, for those who haven't seen it, you show your skin as it is, without filters and without makeup. Yes, that's correct. I started my page September 2020. And originally, it was just a way to document my skin journey. I had my page on private originally. And as soon as I unprioritized my page, I then got so many messages explaining, you know, how I've helped people deal with their skin. And I then sort of wanted to take pictures in a way that grabbed people's attention because

I want to raise as much awareness as possible. And that's how it all came about. Tess let me bring you in at this point do you think we make that link enough especially with younger people the impact on the psychological? I mean I think we all should and it's great to see people like Maya speaking out about it I think it is something as dermatologists we're really aware of but whether we can provide the right support at all times is a different issue. And it's something that I'm really keen to promote and to make those links and to address both sides, not just manage the skin, but manage the impact, the psychological impact, which, as Maya describes, can be so massive and doesn't just affect who you are at 13,

but can affect who you grow up to be. How have treatments come on for acne and eczema? Yeah, so, I mean, there's lots of developments in treatments. There's lots of medical developments. There's more effective treatments. But I think that doesn't mean that we don't try, as Maya's doing, to accept that skin conditions are common, do happen, and that we should be sort of celebrating difference,

reducing stigma, and not expecting everyone to look some flawless, unobtainable way because that doesn't help. It doesn't, you know, I think acceptance, as Maya is clearly doing brilliantly, doesn't mean putting up with things that aren't acceptable. It doesn't mean seeking good treatment when you need it. It does mean thinking of things which you can't change necessarily. I was going to say, have you got any advice for those parents and carers of those who are specifically struggling with acne and are perhaps going through what Maya went through?

Yeah, I think it's a difficult balance because you have to obviously allow independence and accept that as people go into their teens, they're going to be looking after, it's their body, it's their skin. I think you've got to be supportive. Don't dismiss anything that they ask you about because it's their body it's their skin um i think you've got to be supportive um don't dismiss anything that they ask you about because it's clearly important young people don't express concerns unless they really are very worried clearly don't blame them for things because skin conditions are

complex and there's nothing that they would have done wrong and that's often the first thing i say to people that it's not their fault and then you know it seems obvious but they do need to hear that they need to hear that from their parents. Offer them support. As I said, respond to anything they're asking. And I think really importantly, try and direct them to reliable resources. We know that there's a lot of information out there and some of it isn't helpful. Some of it's clearly very positive, like Maya's work.

And we know that's why the book I wrote, because young people want facts and they don't know where to get them often. So publishing this book and resources on the Association of Dermatology, you know, are reliable resources. But I think we know that young people often don't go to them and they might find the information less reliable, less supportive and less helpful ways. The book's called Skin Conditions in Young People, a practical guide to be comfortable in your skin. Maya, did any of the treatments help you? So I've tried loads of treatments during my time. As I say, I've had it since I was 13. I find that salicylic acid really helps my skin.

My skin's quite sensitive, but I haven't tried any other treatment apart from that as yet. And do you put makeup on? I do wear makeup. And it's funny you should say that because when I was younger, I used to wear it just as a way to hide my skin. I was very insecure, but now I wear it just for fun.

So a lot's changed. Yes, I mean, because I think, you know, test people can get nervous about whether they should put makeup on. Should they squeeze spots? What would you say, Tess, to those questions? Yeah yeah so first i would like to there are some really there are some really effective treatments for acne so if you are having scarring acne do get referred to a dermatologist because there are things that can be given and you know i don't know what my

journey has been but that would certainly be worthwhile um because there are some things that can help acne short term and long term a lot. In terms of makeup, absolutely fine. I think anything that makes you feel better that you want to do, either for fun or to cover up, I think as Marge's doing, exposing her skin is a really brave and really wonderful thing to do, and I encourage my patients to do that if possible. But washing it off at the end of the day is probably sensible,

because occluding the skin can make spots more problematic. Squeezing spots, always get asked this it's a tricky one if you've got a you know ginormous pustule it's probably fine it's fine to squeeze it if you're picking it every tiny little blemish on your skin that's not so helpful okay but you ideally even the ones that look like they are good squeezy ones should you leave i mean you know i'm a dermatologist so i i enjoy those sorts of parts of the skin and there are websites there are people copying yes that's a whole that's a whole other discussion i think i would watch the websites and i wouldn't do too but i think the other important thing i always tell people is that spots can scar even if you're not touching them or squeezing them there's a real assumption that if you've got scarring acne it's because

you've been picking and squeezing and that's not true um i think as assumption that if you've got scarring acne, it's because you've been picking and squeezing, and that's not true. I think, as I said, if you've got one that's good to go, clean your hands, give it a squeeze and wipe it off afterwards. But I think really that if you're getting lots of those, that is the time to see a doctor and try and get some treatments prescribed. And actually get some help. Maya, final word to you about what you'd like to say to anybody who's feeling low about their skin, perhaps a teenager listening

or someone who's in charge of one or trying to be in charge of one? So the main thing I would say is don't compare yourself to images you see on social media. A lot nowadays is highly edited. We have so many different editing apps and that's not the reality. So my few tips would be don't compare yourself to social media and just know that your skin will heal eventually with time.

Yes. And I suppose I just wonder about if we'll ever get to that point where we are more comfortable with seeing different skins. You know, there's been a huge push, I suppose, in the sort of body shape and how we are in that way. But I know you're looking for that in skin. Definitely. I think it's changing for the better. When I was younger, there was a lot more campaigns that were heavily filtered. But now a lot of companies are embracing real skin. You have so many amazing people on the front covers of magazines. And sometimes, you know, they don't use filters or airbrush in so many great magazines now. And when I was younger, that didn't happen.

So it's great. You can see some of the real bits of skin if they're still there. Just like saying thanks for joining us, Maya. It's so important. Well, Maya Gray, Dr. Tess McPherson, big thanks to you both. A message here. I want Victoria Wood on a coin, our greatest female comic. That's from Paula. Thanks for your company today. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

Hello. I've got a story to tell you. It's called The Coming Storm, a new podcast series from BBC Radio 4 and the World Service. On January the 6th, 2021, a mob stormed the capital in Washington, D.C. It looked like a strange fantasy had gripped America, about how a cabal of satanic paedophiles had stolen an election. I'm Gabriel Gatehouse, and I've been looking for the origins of this twisted tale. It was a puzzle, and it kind of compiled a story. But what began as a quest to understand a conspiracy theory known as QAnon

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It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.