Woman's Hour - Sally Wainwright on Anne Lister

Episode Date: May 15, 2019

Sally Wainwright’s new drama Gentleman Jack tells the story of Anne Lister, the Victorian landowner and industrialist whose coded diaries have revealed a hidden world of lesbian relationships and class and gender struggles in 19th Century Yorkshire. Starring Suranne Jones, the series covers just two years of Anne’s eventful life, including the beginning of her relationship with future wife Ann Walker. Jenni is joined by Sally and Anne Choma, author of Gentleman Jack: The Real Anne Lister.As part of a series about mental health we have been asking women how it feels to live with a mental illness. Heather is now 35 and was diagnosed with bipolar disorder at 29. In 2013, she was snapped by a street photographer at the height of her psychosis. Heather has tracked the photo down and shows it to our reporter Jo Morris. Although the photo is hard for her to look at it also reminds her how far she has come. Adelaide Bon was raped by a stranger when she was nine years old. She told her parents who registered the crime with the police. She talks to Jenni about the impact that day had on her life and how decades later she came face to face with her rapist in a Paris courtroom, experiences she describes in her book ‘The Little Girl on the Ice Floe’. Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Laura NorthedgeInterviewed Guest: Sally Wainwright Interviewed Guest: Anne Choma Interviewed Guest: Adelaide Bon

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast on Wednesday the 15th of May. In today's programme, the little girl on the ice floe. The memoir of a French woman whose life was dominated by the rape she suffered at the age of nine and the impact of her attacker finally being found. And as part of the BBC's mental health season, living with what used to be called manic depression and is now known as bipolar disorder.

I very much doubt you've missed the fact that the new Sunday night serial on BBC One is to be Gentleman Jack. It's been advertised everywhere. Saran Jones is to play Anne Lister, who was a Halifax landowner and industrialist in the early 19th century. She lived at Shipton Hall, which is where the copious diaries she wrote were hidden, and were only found in the late 1930s to reveal an extraordinary life. Lister had travelled widely, inherited the house and the business, was fearless in her choice of dress, wearing clothes more suited to a man than a woman

in her time, and she wrote openly about her love for women. The more racy parts of the diary were written in code. In the first episode, to be shown on Sunday, we find Anne in bed with her married lover, Marianna Lawton, who's just suggested Anne's life would be easier if she got married. No-one knows you better than I do. Then you do know that I could never marry a man. Not for any reason, under any circumstance. It would be perverse. It would be absurd. But the reality is that...

I thoroughly intend to live with someone I love. I thoroughly intend to spend my evening out with someone who loves me. Someone who is there all of the time to share everything with. Not someone who just drops in every now and then whenever an irritable husband permits it. And the reality is that that will never happen. This is what you can't see. And until you do, you're going to keep on getting into scrapes

with women like Veer Hobart, and you're going to keep getting upset when they get married, which they will. Lydia Leonard and Saran Jones. Now, Anne Chomer, who joins us from Leeds, is the author of Gentleman Jack, the real Anne Lister, and Sally Wainwright has written the television series. Sally, how did you come to hear of Anne Lister?

Well, I grew up in Halifax, as you know, and I always visited Shibden Hall as a child. It was somewhere you were taken by my parents and on school trips and it was somewhere I was always mesmerised by. It's a beautiful, magical place, and I always felt a real attachment to it, but I didn't know anything about Anne Lister. I only discovered Anne Lister, really, when I read Jill Lidington's book, Female Fortune, which was published in 1998,

and I was just amazed that this extraordinary woman had owned this house that I'd always felt this real, you know, connection and affection for. I'd started to pick up during the 90s that somebody extraordinary had owned Shibden, this woman who was transgressive, there was something interesting about her, but it was really hard to find out much about her up until I read Jill's book. And then retrospectively, I read Helena Whitbread's work, which she'd published in the 1980s. But, you know, we're only really now starting to figure out who this fantastic woman was. Now, Anne, how did you become interested in her?

Similar story, really, actually, Jenny, to Sally's. But I'm from Leeds. I'm not from Halifax. And so I didn't go to Shibden Hall as a child. I wished I had done. But similar to Sally, I was given a book by a friend and it was Helena Whitbread's book of extracts called I Know My Own Heart. And that set me on my way to doing a university degree at Leeds University. And I did a master's degree and a thesis on Anne's diaries. So that was my initial interest. And that's when I started going to the archives and transcribing the diaries and looking at the letters myself and the Vassalister archive that's there. Sally, how would you describe Anne? There's almost too much to say about Anne. You kind of get, it's where to start.

We're going to be here all morning, aren't we? She was an extraordinary human being. She was, I mean, she's known to us primarily as a prolific lesbian diarist. But when you get to know her, as I have done over the last 20 years, the thing that jumps out at you most is just how clever she was. She was a phenomenally intelligent woman. She was remarkably physically fit. She was a polymath. She was a great traveller, a great scholar.

She was a great linguist. She became an industrialist. She sank her own coal mines. I mean, she studied the engineering behind coal mining. She didn't just pay other people to do it. One of the really fascinating things about her for me is that people have said, oh, she was rich. She could do all these things because she was rich.

She wasn't rich. She'd been always quite a modest estate. And she had to make it pay. She was always struggling to find the next five pounds where the next five you know the next uh hit of money would come from um the other great thing i love about her more than anything is she had such a positive attitude to life her life was for living she had this brilliantly curious mind and she was always doing about ten things at once. She was a real force of nature

and she's really inspiring in that sense. Anne, there were an awful lot of diaries that she'd written over the years. What's the story of how they came to be hidden, then found, and then the code translated? Oh gosh, that is a question, Jenny. In a nutshell, they were found behind a panel at Shibden Hall by the last ancestor of Shibden Hall,

the last inhabitant called John Lister. And he discovered the journals behind a panel and, with his friend Arthur Burrell, set about trying to crack the code. They eventually did do that and discovered what the contents of the code was. And as soon as they realised that it contained sexual content of love between women, the diaries were hastily put back behind the panel. And in fact, Arthur Burrell, John Lister's learned friend,

he wanted John Lister to burn the diaries, but he refused and he recognised the value of this amazing document of Anne Lister's life. So, Sally, why would you say her writing about her lesbian relationships is so significant? Because she did code it. It's significant because it's the first time, it's the first record that lesbian relationships existed between women. It's the only record of that level of affection between women because it was never illegal.

It was beneath illegal. It was illegal for men. And so there are court records that men had sexual relationships. But because it was not illegal. It was beneath illegal. It was illegal for men. And so there are court records that men had sexual relationships. But because it was not illegal for women, there's not even court records. So when it was revealed what was in the code, it's the only record that that level of intimacy actually existed between women. And who were her lovers and how open was she about what was going on? I know the writing was coded, but people must have known. Yeah, I mean, they did know.

Her first lover was Eliza Raine, who she met at the Manor House boarding school as a teenager in York. And from then on, she had subsequent relationships with Marianna Lawton, who was the main love of her life, really, and then Isabella Norcliffe before that. So she had various lovers in her life, not as many as people like to think she had. I mean, you sometimes read that she had scores of lovers,

but she didn't in actual fact. You could actually count on one hand the significant lovers that she had scores of lovers but she didn't in actual fact you could actually count on one hand the significant lovers that she did have um she never veered from who she was and she stood proud you know against a world that was often cruel about the way she looked but she did you know she was careful enough to exercise and behave in a way that didn't countenance any kind of bad thoughts about her. She was very, very careful to exercise discretion and she actually behaved in a very discreet manner with the women that she was with. But Sally, as a fellow Yorkshire woman,

I mean we're all three of us Yorkshire women, as was Anne, how surprised were you to find someone with the courage to live her life so boldly in Halifax? She was extraordinarily courageous. I mean, she had the heart of a lion. She was very singular. She was able to live life by her own standards

against all convention. I mean, she must have been a very unusual human being to have met. She was very charismatic. And again, she was very clever and I think she had to live life on her own terms because of her intellect.

I think she probably met very few people who were quite on her intellectual level. But what impact did learning about her have on your understanding of the history of Yorkshire, your home county? It changed my attitude. I mean, I've always been a keen historian. I've always loved history, always been passionate about the past. But it certainly changed my attitude towards my hometown. I mean, I grew up as a teenager who wanted to work in telly, so I couldn't wait to leave. I wanted to go and live in London because I thought that's where it all happened and then when I discovered Anne Lister

my hometown suddenly became magical to me in a way that I could never have anticipated. And how did she view her gender because I know she was often mistaken for a man and she certainly dressed in a very masculine way not particularly acceptable at that time. Yeah she was misgendered a lot. And I think I write in the book that she, you know, once when she was travelling through France, that she was mistaken for a man three times in one day. I mean, what makes Anne Lister really modern

is that she was debating notions of gender fluidity 200 years before anybody else was doing it. So she would often write in her diary, she'd write something like, you know, she was neither man nor woman in society or she'd see herself as like a connecting link. So I think she had a very, very healthy self-esteem about who she was, but she was having these debates within herself.

And in that first episode, which I've seen, she's very angry at the thought that women might not get the vote. It's interesting that she wasn't a great exponent of women's rights. That just wasn't a discourse at the time. She was interested in her own rights primarily. But when they're talking about the reform bill, she is cross in that first episode. Yeah, she's quite sarcastic about the way the world is. She is. You say in your book, Anne, that she inherited Chibden Hall because she was a lesbian.

Why do you say that? I think I've kind of pushed the boundaries there and I wanted to be a bit brave about what I was saying because I think Anne Lister and her uncle James and her aunt Anne, they had a very, very unique, groundbreaking relationship with each other. And I think my understanding is that they had a tacit understanding of who she was and what her sexuality was so I believe that Uncle James had a great understanding of her lesbian sexuality that in fact they had conversations with each other and

she'd say you know I'm never going to marry and he said yes I understand that and she would often say things in the dowries like, you know, if I was other than I was, I wouldn't have got the estate. So, you know, I kind of pushed the, you know, I pushed myself in the book because I wanted to be, to come down and say that Anton and Uncle James were very, very understanding of who she was

and that there was nobody else really there that could have inherited the estate. Sally, Saran Jones plays Anne and I know you worked with her on Scott and Bailey. Why did you think she would be the right person for the part? Well, to begin with, I couldn't imagine who could be because there's just so much to her. There's so many facets to a character.

It was really hard to... Which is unusual for me. normally I have someone in mind um and I think initially I imagined Saran is she's a very you know a very contemporary looking woman and I think that was partly why to begin with my mind hadn't gone to her and in fact ultimately that was the thing that's made the performance most exciting that she does have this very contemporary quality. I think what Saran's got in common with Anne Lister hugely is a physical energy, a mental brilliance. I mean, Saran has ideas popping out of her head all the time.

And we... So there are some really obvious... And she's very charismatic, of course. She's very... You know, she's got this huge personality, and that's so Anne Lister Since we last spoke you made To Walk Invisible about

the Bronte sisters what other northern women are you going to bring to the screen? Well I've just got very interested in Amy Johnson who came from Hull the aviatrix Amy Johnson who had a very extraordinary life.

And so that's what I'm hoping to look at next. It's fine by me. I love you bringing all these North American women out. Sally Wainwright and Anne Chalmers, thank you very much indeed, both of you, for talking to us this morning. And a reminder that the new series starts this Sunday evening. And I've seen one episode. It's well worth watching. Thank you very much, both of you.

Now, still to come in today's programme, the little girl on the ice floe, how a little French girl survived the aftermath of rape when she was only nine, and the serial, the third episode of Cuckoo. Now, earlier in the week, you may have missed the history of women's lose and the European elections, what might influence the choice of women when they go to the ballot box. You can download the podcast through BBC Sounds.

And tomorrow, we're going to look in detail at what's going on in Alabama as regards abortion and the impact it may have on women's right to termination right across the United States. Now, as part of a season about mental health across the BBC, we've been asking women how they managed to live with mental illness. Heather is now 35 and was diagnosed with bipolar disorder at the age of 29. It used to be called manic depression. Heather and her father, Barry Barry agreed to discuss their memories of when Heather's problems became serious and the impact on their relationship.

Jo Morris looked at a photograph with Heather which was taken by a street photographer, the Mancorialist, in Manchester at the height of her psychosis in 2013. Here's Heather. It was funny because I remembered saying, do you want to take a picture of me? And I, like, traipsed through the archives and found it.

And what it's showing is me with, like, two bin bags of things that I've collected throughout the day that was part of, like, the mission that I was on. I'm also, like, listening to my music, which is something which I did quite a lot during the, like the psychosis episode. But I do remember people looking, as they would. But yeah, I remember not really caring at the time,

which is quite a nice feeling. I'm wearing some brightly coloured floral shorts with some tights and wellies, because it was raining on the day. This is my grandpa's coat from, like, ages ago. And there was a song out at the time called, like, Thrift Shop. I can't remember the artist's name. But, like, I thought that song was for me. So you thought you were famous here?

I thought I was, like, kind of moving towards it. I thought by doing all the things that I was doing, I would eventually get there. But at this stage, I did think that I was being filmed as well. It's like all the CCTV cameras, I thought that they were filming me as I went around the city. I remember walking down the street to the Verve song, Bittersweet Symphony,

and kind of performing parts of the video. And then it all culminated in me, like, spinning round with my arms up in the air at the town hall. So we're just walking up to the area where I collected the bin bags from. There is a lot of, lot of rubbish at the back here and I feel like, yeah, it must have been this one because I would have rounded the corner with the bags. So I would have picked them up from against this wall where this other

rubbish is. So what were you looking for? What was going through your mind then when you were walking around? I felt like I was on a mission and that I had to collect certain things. And that it was all part of this goal to get married and book a venue. And so you were collecting rubbish? Yeah. Yeah. In the hope that it would help, basically. So how did the world look to you when you were in the midst of your psychosis i don't feel like i probably was looking properly because i was looking for different things

i was looking for things on the floor thrown away scratch cards or what was like in the rubbish and like picking you know picking that up so i feel like i probably didn't take in a lot of stuff i think i felt like I was doing really well and, like, gathering all this stuff, getting the, like, pairs of shoes that I found in the rubbish area. And I thought, yeah, I'm doing well here. I've got loads and I've not, like, paid for it. And then, like, I'd pick up money off the floor as well.

One piece, two piece, five piece. Just, like, anything. So this rubbish here, would this have been any good to you? No. It's, like, empty, like, anything. So this rubbish here, would this have been any good to you? No. It's, like, empty, like, bottles and crisp packets. There's nothing of any, like, use in them. So you're choosy about your rubbish? Yeah, selective.

How much self-awareness have you got when you're in it? Minimal. Don't really care what people think. Like, if they see me picking up bin bags, like, it doesn't really matter. I see a guy, a photographer guy, and says, do you want to take my picture? So it just all kind of fits in with the thoughts at the time. Could you see how people were reacting to you? I don't think that I noticed.

Did you notice if people were scared of you? I don't think so. I think I was quite harmless though because, because I was more, like, happy, singing out loud. And when you told your boyfriend about this when you got home, how did he question you? Yeah, it's funny. I don't know if I even told him that. I might not have even said anything. I might just have gone back.

He's like, oh, you've got some bin bags of stuff, and just ignored it, and, like, probably been quite laid back about it. I don't know that I would have told him the full story. So there's part of you that was still holding stuff back? Definitely. It was all kind of my own experience. It didn't, like, matter, like, if no-one else knew about it. It just felt like it was something for me to enjoy,

and, you know, I did enjoy walking around, doing my own thing, and not really worrying about anything. How frightening was it when you were psychotic was it ever frightening yeah it was frightening when I thought that like a UFO had landed outside my apartment that that was the most frightening time and that's when I grew like quite distressed as well and contacted like a crisis team yeah oh so you actually you contacted the crisis team? I think my partner might have done it on my behalf.

That's the thing, it's all fuzzy, isn't it? Yeah, it's all fuzzy. Yeah, a lot of it's fuzzy. What does that feel like, not knowing? I feel like I'm OK with it, cos I think there's stuff that I've done, like, recently that I might not remember exactly what happened. So I don't know that it's, like, too much of a problem. I mean, it would have been good to have kept a diary but I just kept like random bits of diary as you know to see what I did but I felt like I was doing it for like weeks

but whereas actually it might have only been like four days did you ever become aggressive with it no I don't remember being aggressive in, like, the psychosis. I remember being aggressive in the hypomania. I'd, like, fall out with people. I fell out with my mum as well, which was really difficult. Thankfully, it's been OK since I got my diagnosis. Basically around, like, me being right and them being wrong and, like, not being able to see able to see where they're coming from.

So how has it affected your friendships? I don't feel like I ever shouted at any friends. It was just more family. I've kind of lost friends along the way because of the periods of depression and hypermania. And I think because it went on for so long, people just kind of disappear and move like, move on with life, have children,

and you just kind of, like, lose a few people along the way. But I've still got, like, a few friends that I'm in contact with. Hey, Dad. Hi, baby. Do you want a brew, Dad? Yes, please. I'm Barry, Heather's dad. Like, you'll just check that I'm all right, won't you?

Yes. And in fact, I was worried about you the other week. And in actual fact, so was your mother. The conclusion was that you were worried about moving. Now it's all sorted out. You're fine. Oh, OK. I can tell a difference in you straight away.

And how did that present in me, though? Short-tempered and short-fused. Oh, OK. But is that not normal? Probably. It probably is. But because I'm looking for things, yeah? Well, yeah.

It's obvious things. And as I said, it was Martin who started the conversation, that's my son, saying, how's Heather? Because Mum said. Oh, OK. She wasn't 100%. I'm just thinking it's nothing really related to, like, bipolar, though, is it? No, but...

I'm sort of very conscious to watch for changes in your behaviour, yeah. Is it hard knowing that your family are looking out for signs now? I think they should come to me first. I don't think that it all should be behind my back. Like, talk to me and I'll tell you what's wrong with me and I'll tell you why I'm really annoyed about something. How I'm, like, short-tempered is just, like, normal for me sometimes. I'm like that occasionally.

So you've been through a lot together, obviously. Yes. My first experience with her was at... Sorry, I'm getting a bit emotional. When I was just in the car, when I got the phone call saying that she wasn't well and could I go to Salford Royal. So that was my first experience of her really having a bad attack, didn't you?

Yeah. It's difficult to explain, but I knew what she... Well, I didn't know what she was going through, but I knew that it was something that was mental because I'd seen my brother in that situation. So I didn't know it was bipolar, obviously. I'm not a psychiatrist, but she wasn't well. That's the only way to describe it.

Can you try and describe what she looked like? It was the build-up to that, really. She was worried about the aliens landing. She was worried about the aliens landing she was worried about the aliens in the flat and she was taking me upstairs to show me where she'd seen them landing on the roof I've forgotten all this I only remember the aliens landing outside

so I've forgotten all that bit that's what I mean, there's a lot of missing parts of what I've experienced she was finding bus tickets on the floor and saying, these are the messages from the aliens. I'm picking the bus tickets up. I don't know why. That was the one that really got to me. Because I'd do it out in Manchester in front of other people.

Yes, it probably was. It probably looked quite strange. It probably was because you're in front of other people. And I was thinking, I wasn't embarrassed. I just went along with it because you've got front of other people. And I was thinking, I wasn't embarrassed. I just went along with it because she got to give her support. But my most worrying time was when she would go out on her own around Manchester and chat to anybody. And that's when I thought, hmm, this needs sorting.

But what can you do until you're actually diagnosed? I was, like, irritable, though, as well, so I'd, like, cry, but then I'd be fine again. It just kind of felt like it could change quite quickly. You sort of wonder whether something triggered it, but I don't know what did, do you? There's a possibility of, like, going through all the divorce. That's quite traumatic, all of that stuff,

what was really difficult for me. How old were you when your mum and dad got divorced? Six, yeah. Much too early. Yeah. I think I remember thinking at the time that I should have done something to stop it from happening. It was just quite a messy divorce. It wasn't, like, amicable.

There was a lot going on. Still isn't. Exactly. You can't live other people's lives. You can't be sat with her all the time. She's just got her head in a different place. But what does that mean, really? If you have got your head in a different place

and you can still hold down a job and, like, lead a normal life, it doesn't matter. But when it starts affecting you day to day and you can't hold down a job and, like, lead a normal life. It doesn't matter. But when it starts affecting your day-to-day and you can't get up for work and you're inappropriate at work, then you've got a bit of an issue. So if you think back to, like, hypermanic episodes, back when I was, like, 24, depression, like, kind of kicked in. It was, like, constant, basically.

It was, like, four years outside of that when i was were you okay when when i was here and i was depressed oh yeah and i lost my jobs and then i'd be hypermanic and then i'd spend money and then i'd get another job and then i'd lose it again and it was just like that for like for a while but again that was um that was all feasible wasn't it you know if you look from my point of view if you look back you you were you were losing jobs because you were um you didn't particularly like them in my in my head okay and the spending i mean i was worried about your spending oh yeah you, you'd come back with, you know, as though you were earning a fortune, weren't you,

with all sorts of things. But again, I didn't see that as a real, that there was something wrong with you, stability-wise, yeah. I didn't see that. Yeah. So the help that I got was, you know, a psychiatrist that said that I had seasonal affective disorder and then just got discharged. And then I was just really unwell again and there didn't didn't seem

to be anyone that helped to you know work out what was going on because I knew that it was there was just like so much more at play and that it was really difficult to live like a normal life I couldn't I just couldn't do it it you saw it as a relief to be actually diagnosed bipolar because she always thought she was different and couldn't actually explain how she was different

and once she was diagnosed with bipolar you came to terms with it didn't you yeah because I knew I felt like I knew that I was already but but I just needed someone to recognise it. And that was really important. Do you worry about relapsing ever? No, because I've got loads of insight. I know the things to look out for. That doesn't mean it won't happen, but it that I'll probably have like more control over it I don't think it would happen unless I stopped taking medication sometimes the medication can

stop working I think that's probably one of the like fears but aside from that I feel like quite confident yeah the other thing is if I wanted to have a baby like they would probably take you off lithium as well. So that would be a big thing. The thing is, you can kind of describe it to people, but unless they've been there, it is really difficult. Which comes back to you capturing the information and taking the pictures so that you're able to explain to other people what you went through. This is a picture on something called the Manchorialist,

which is a Manchester-based photographer who takes pictures of, like, interesting people or, like, strange fashions. Right. So he took a picture of me on the 14th of January 2013. Oh, dear me. I'm pretty zoned into it. I've never seen you with the rubbishth of January 2013. Oh dear me. I've never seen you with the rubbish bags, you know.

And such an extrovert as well, you're coming across there, aren't you? I know, that's what I mean. But look how happy I am. You are happy. Well, you're happy now. But it's balanced happiness. Yeah, exactly. I'm glad I didn't see that at the time. I felt a bit upset at first when I saw it but then

I kind of accepted it for what it was. What made you upset? Just because it's like I do look like a bit stupid. I'd be fine if it wasn't for the bin bags to be honest. But also it's a marker of? Of like you know how far I've come as well yeah it's quite quite good to see how far I've come as well. Yeah, it's quite good to see how far I've come. Heather and her father spoke to Jo Morris and the photograph they discussed can be seen on the Woman's Hour website later and on Twitter at BBC Woman's Hour. And of course, details of organisations which offer information and support of mental health

are available at bbc.co.uk forward slash action line. And that address is on our website too and yesterday's interview with a woman who lives with dissociative identity disorder is available now on bbc sounds now in 1990 a little nine-year-old girl was coming home to her parents flat in a wealthy neighborhood in paris when she was followed by a stranger who attacked her in the stairwell of the building. She told her parents, they took her to the police and the crime was registered. But the perpetrator of the sexual offence was not uncovered until 2012, and she and a number of other women would appear in court to recount their experiences. Well, Adelaide Bonn has written a memoir of the years

during which the impact of what she'd suffered affected every part of her life. It's called The Little Girl on the Ice Flow. Adelaide, what's the origin of the title of the memoir? For years, I felt so despaired and I had so much self-hatred and so I went to a therapist. And I would try to describe him how I felt and usually I had a lot of anger and then it stopped. And I felt like I was this very tiny little girl lost and alone on a huge white and icy desert.

And I told him, well, it's kind of Little Girl on an Ice Float. And that's, yeah, what became the title of my book. You were only nine when the attack took place. How much did you remember of what had happened? Well, at the time, I was dissociated, so I didn't remember much. The cops called it a sexual assault and I thought that's what it was. And then I didn't really think of it after that. Many things went wrong in my life after, but I didn't link it to that.

And it took me years to find the memories because I suffered from traumatic amnesia like most of the kids who were abused and then bit by bit I understood that what has happened to me was rape and that and this word made all the difference for me because all of a sudden I had a word to explain all my suffering. But if you were to pinpoint the moment which was the turning point in your recovery when you recognized what had happened what would it be? How did that happen? Well there were different moments. The first one I was going to doing a body therapy because I had so many issues with my body and so much self-hatred against myself. And one day, the memory of his finger inside me happened. And I remembered it very vividly as if he was there right now.

And it was absolutely terrifying. But I quite didn't know what to do with it and then later on I was working in a feminist company and the and and the the state director told us the French law and that's where I learned because I didn't know it that digital penetration was rape and then after that I discovered that he had done other things to me but for me me, that was really the turning point. When I was able to put rape on what has happened to me, that he had done that word to me and that all my suffering, it was legitimate to be, it was okay.

What did your friends and your parents, who were very supportive, took you to the police, what did they make of your distress as it continued? Well, I tried with all my energy and intelligence to hide it to the people I loved. I tried to be a good girl, smiling girl, good working in class. And I needed so much to see the little girl I was before in their eyes because they were the only ones still believing in this nice little girl I felt so awful and

and I was so ashamed of myself that I tried to to hide it from them and And then they had no... I think my parents thought I was an artist and that, you know, it was... You know, I was moody because I was an artist. And my friends, well, they knew I had issues and they didn't really understand why, but that was okay. You did seek help over the years.

What sort of help turned out to be useful for you? Well, I went to many therapies, but it was really the day where I met a psychiatrist who was working specifically on the consequences of sexual violence and was trained in psychotrauma and PTSD. It's when I understood how brain work and what happened really to me that day that I started to link all the symptoms together and to understand how it has been a poison everywhere in my life and to be able to link things to that moment that really helped so much and the symptoms stopped one after another as when I begin to understand okay this is because of that then the symptom will stop and now I'm

I don't have symptoms anymore I'm I can live my life entirely that was just unthinkable even five years ago. Now, he was found almost by accident, having committed a burglary. And you went to court along with 18 others, 13 other women who had suffered couldn't face it. How did you manage to stand up in court and give evidence about something that had happened so long ago? Well, it did happen a long time ago, but for me, it's exactly like it has happened one second ago. The memory, the traumatic memory is so vivid, so alive. It happens every time you talk about it, it happens again. It's very terrifying, but at the same moment, it needs to be said. You need to go through it again and again until it becomes a normal memory and it doesn't affect you as much but what helped me so much at

court was to meet the other victim that feeling of um sisterhood was so strong and so moving. And for once, I wasn't alone anymore on the ice floor. I had sisters there and we were holding hands and it gives me so much courage. What are you hoping your speaking out will achieve now? Well, I really tried this book to be a toolbox for the victims and for the people that are around them and for the judges and for the cops to understand what rape really is and how this poison goes through the entire stand by the victim and understand them and take care of them. Because right now, worldwide, the victims are left alone by the justice system, by the medical system, by everyone. And it must stop. I was talking to Adelaide Bon.

Lots of you got in touch this morning on Gentleman Jack, the two women who are so passionate about her. And Michael said, first written record of lesbian love. Has Sally Wainwright never heard of Sappho? I'm sure she has. Caroline Raphael said there was a 10-part Woman's Hour drama in 2002 about Anne Lister based on the journals and letters directed by the rather brilliant Nadia Molinari. And Laura said, listening to Anne Lister's Gentleman Jack on Woman's Eye, you do know I could never marry a man. I thoroughly intend to live with someone I love.

Navigating gender fluidity 200 years ago. Looking forward to this. Eek, hope it's good. Fingers, toes and eyebrows crossed. Corinna sent us an email saying, just listening to the inspirational Adelaide Bourne talking about her powerful and important memoir. And then on living with bipolar disorder, the manchorialist who took the photograph they were discussing told us, I recall thinking, I wish everyone would like her, as I usually have to ask people to pose, but she offered, just goes to show we never know what

people are going through. Thanks for telling your story, Heather, and I'm glad the picture is serving as a marker for your progression. And Sarah said, I relate to the story of the woman and her dad today, particularly her expression of the joy of being manic and no one understanding that, especially not the family. Now tomorrow I will be joined by the journalist and author Joan Smith to discuss her book Homegrown, How Domestic Violence Turns Men Into Terrorists. She questions why in the debate about what makes a terrorist a striking common factor has long been overlooked, a history of domestic abuse. And I'll also be joined by Nigel Slater, who'll be talking about a pair of books

that he's bringing out. Spring Summer is the first, and the second comes out in October for the autumn and winter months. We'll be talking about eating maybe less meat, a collection of recipes for spring and summer vegetables, and he's going to bring a lemon meringue pie. Oh, joy.

Join me tomorrow. Bye bye. Every week on Desert Island Discs I have the delicious task of dispatching my guests to a mythical desert island with their choice of eight tracks a book and a luxury. This week it's documentary filmmaker Louis Theroux. His music is fabulous but if you listen you'll also

find out how he tried to impress Michael Moore, why a series of Enid Blyton's books changed his life, and how he de-stresses in the kitchen. There's even a bit of rapping thrown in for good measure. Don't miss it. Just subscribe to Desert Island Discs on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.