Woman's Hour - Samantha Cameron; Rape cases - legal challenge to the CPS; Rachael Burford on Girls' Rugby

Episode Date: January 28, 2021

Samantha Cameron spent six years at number 10 Downing Street with her husband David in the glare of the media spotlights. She was there through the tumultuous years of the Scottish and EU referendums - issues which still rage today - witnessing some of the biggest political changes for generations. She was the youngest first lady for 50 years, juggling family life and a new baby with a high pressure job. She is credited with modernising the upmarket stationers Smythson and has now set up her own clothing brand Cefin. She talks to Emma about life at number 10, family, fashion and business.Rape victims at the heart of a landmark court case say they have been failed by the Crown Prosecution Service. A judicial review lodged against the CPS by the Centre for Women’s Justice (CWJ) and End Violence Against Women (EVAW) coalition is being heard in the Court of Appeal this week. They say that a change in tactic has led to a more cautious approach and a subsequent collapse in rape prosecutions. To discuss the issues Emma is joined by Harriet Wistrich, Director of the CWJ.Former rugby World Cup player Rachael Burford talks about setting up the Girls Rugby Club to give the game an international boost.Presented by Emma Barnett Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Karen Dalziel

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. On today's programme, Samantha Cameron, a woman who for a long time, and perhaps still is to some of you, only known as someone's wife, the former Prime Minister David Cameron's to be precise. Samantha Cameron joins us today in her first solo BBC interview, and we talk about just that, how to not only be the wife, but also what a difficult tightrope spouses, in this case wives,

walk in these sorts of roles, the plus one, as it were. We also talk about first ladies in light of America having a new one in Dr Jill Biden. You'll hear that interview next. But what do you think about the idea of a first lady or first gentleman here in the UK? America having a new one in Dr. Jill Biden. You'll hear that interview next. But what do you think about the idea of a first lady or first gentleman here in the UK? Do we need it? Would you welcome a more formalised role for the other half of the prime minister?

Or are they out of date? Are we doing just fine as we are? Text us with your views at Women's Hour. 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Check with your network provider for those exact costs. Or on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. Of course, you can email us, as so many of you do every day.

And thank you for that, through our website. Let us know what you think. Also, on today's programme, we hear the latest from a landmark court case against the Crown Prosecution Service being heard in the Court of Appeal this week. Rape victims say that they have been failed by the CPS. And women's rugby. Is it time for an education? We hope to give you that and get one ourselves. Our first guest then, Samantha Cameron, spent six years at Number 10 Downing Street with her husband David in the glare of the media spotlight whether she liked it or not. She was the youngest so-called first lady for 50 years although we don't of course call them that in this country juggling family life and a new baby with a high pressure job. While she lived

behind that shiny black door she was also creative director of the upmarket stationer Smythson but when she left Downing Street she said it my time now, having supported her husband and his top job, and quickly set up her own clothing brand, Sefin. I caught up with her yesterday to hear what life was really like behind that famous door, and how she found keeping a fashion business going during lockdown. She's never conducted a solo interview with the BBC until now. So I started sort of, I've been going for about four years now and it's incredibly,

setting up my own business is incredibly tough. My mum is an entrepreneur. She's had two or three businesses in her time, but you still, it doesn't really prepare you for the reality, the kind of the highs, the lows. It's quite lonely as well because, you know, you go from being an employee to being the boss. But I have to say it's very rewarding. You know, you know, you go from being an employee to being the boss. But I have to say, it's very rewarding. You know, of course, there's been a difficult last few months, but it gets easier all the time. But I mean, the first few months after we left Downing Street was really tough. But I think every entrepreneur, you know, and everything goes wrong

and you've got a tiny team and it's exhausting. But it was something I'd always wanted to do. And I think if I hadn't done it I would have regretted it. Well you were you were kind of beavering away as I understand it at the table in Downing Street learning how to to put patterns together to to do various designs is that right? So yes so waiting to do it. I'd always planned to do fashion at college and ended up doing fine art and so eventually came back round to sort of tackling tackling that you know wanting to have some sort of fashion business uh but I thought I must teach myself how to pattern cut so I was still working three days a week for Smythson but in my spare

time um a really wonderful lady came to teach me and I'm terrible I mean it's an art form because you're trying to turn something flat into something 3D and women's shapes are all very different. So it's a real art form. I love the fact you had some spare time, the way you put that. Working, being behind a shiny door that we all know. You don't have a key to either, do you? No, there's no key. I can't remember now how we got in the back door.

I think it just opened. No, you don't have a key or a pass or anything. The weirdness of Downing Street, but you found some spare time also being a mum as well to learn a new skill. And has it been difficult during the global pandemic? Definitely. I mean, it's a fashion business. So I'm very lucky in that people are still buying clothes. I think there's lots of business out there who have suffered more in the restaurant business or entertainment. And people are definitely still buying clothes. I think there's lots of business out there who have suffered more in the restaurant business or entertainment. And people are definitely still buying clothes. We're an online business, people are online shopping. Yeah, I think we're just, you're trying to keep

the team motivated because I think it's going to be, you know, another few months yet before it will go back to normal. But yeah, so it's been a challenge. Any Brexit supply chain issues? There's been a bit of that. I think a mixture of COVID and Brexit actually. So definitely trying to get into the ports has been challenging. We've had to air freight more than we'd like to into the UK. And although there'd be no issues, you know, trading with the US or outside the EU, definitely until they sort out some of the which I hope teething issues definitely trading with the EU if you're bringing if you're bringing goods into the country from

outside the UK and then trying to sell them back into Europe that currently is challenging and difficult. So as a as a small business owner your message to Boris Johnson would be? I think they need to talk to all the businesses out there who are in a similar position to me of which there are lots and it is the smaller businesses because we can't afford to have you know warehouses in Europe and that sort of thing um and I'm sure there are ways of sorting it out but yes it does need to be looked at because otherwise we can't grow our business and we can grow our business it must be frustrating for you it is frustrating I mean the majority of our business is in the UK um and we do a bit of business in America but we did have a bit of EU

business and obviously it's you'd like to grow it because it's easy it's on your doorstep but unless some of the expense and cost of doing that is looked at it will be challenging and we might well have to look elsewhere or focus on on other areas. Talked about those Brexit supply chain issues perhaps with your husband at home? Yes, no definitely it comes up. I mean initially quite because I think some of these things were you know came up in the very last moments of the negotiation so you're definitely going yeah we're having this problem at work. We really thought we'd kind of done our prep and this one's you know we weren't expecting. So I think for bigger businesses it's fine but if you're small it's a challenge.

Well, perhaps Boris Johnson will heed your words and hear them. We hope he listens to women's hour. We'd like to get him on. How hard has it been, Samantha Cameron, to come out of the shadow of being the Prime Minister's wife? We're talking to you today as a business woman in your own right. But of course, your name is synonymous with living at Downing Street and being the Prime Minister's other half for years. We've been together a long time before he became prime minister. I'd always worked. He's always been incredibly supportive of my work. So it didn't feel in a sense at all like I was coming out of his shadow because we don't really have that kind of relationship.

And I think when you're starting a business, it's so intense that you don't really have time it's sort of frightening but you're so busy that you don't have time to think about it I think if I had I probably would I may not have done it you might just have lost your nerve completely does he help out in the business uh yeah he has done he gives me lots of good advice I talk stuff over with him. He's not modelled for us or anything so far. Right. No male range. No, no, there's no male range in the planning. But the reason I ask is because I was thinking about this tricky line that partners have to follow or try to follow, because there is no route map defined.

And actually, perhaps I could get your view on America in just a moment moment because, of course, a new First Lady there. But we don't have a set role called First Lady here. And I wonder, did you have a role model? Was there a prime minister's spouse that you looked towards to be how you could be? No, not really. And there's not much guidance when you get there, actually. I mean, obviously, we have the Queen, we have the monarchy and the royal family who do a brilliant job. So we have a very different system here in that she's essentially,

the Queen is essentially our first lady. But I think it's, as a prime minister's wife or you might be husband, I think we're quite lucky in that you can find your own way to tackle the role depending on your circumstances. But I had a young family. I wanted to continue my career. And I think being able to have that flexibility, way to tackle the role depending on your circumstances but I had a young family I

wanted to continue my career and I think being able to have that flexibility you know to be able to support my husband when he needed to me but also create a kind of happy home and have time to to I think going into what is beneficial because you get out of the Westminster bubble so you have a bit of perspective you can kind of come back in and not feel like, I think it can make you maybe a better partner because you're not so sucked into the intensity of it. But it's an amazing place to live and a huge honour and privilege. Yeah, I know, but I bet you were happy when... Meet amazing people.

Well, you're not a bit relieved when you got out of there. I wouldn't have wanted to do it forever. Right, well, you know, I actually read somewhere that Dennis Thatcher was the model for you. Yeah, well, I did always admire, I met him with Margaret a couple of times and he was so charming and so adoring of her, actually, and so supportive.

I mean, this was way, I think I spent her 70th birthday with them. So it was after she'd left Downing Street. And you just did feel like they really did support each other. So perhaps he was in some way an influence, even though Karen wasn't. Yes, definitely, definitely. Yeah. You can't win, though. I was looking back at some of the predecessors in the role.

And if you don't do anything, you can be accused of perhaps being meek, having no views, being a shrinking violet, all of those things. And then if you seem to be involved or interested, you're a Lady Macbeth who pulls the strings. And we're interested here at Women's Hour about, you know, the perception of the women that are put in front of us on the media. And I think recently Carrie Simons has been accused, the partner of the fiance of the prime minister, of being that sort of role. Because unlike you, she was in politics before. She was a press officer, a very senior press officer at Conservative Party headquarters. And actually, one of the names she was given by people who were deemed to be allies of Dominic Cummings was Princess Nut-Nut. And I don't know if you saw this, but some people were very aggrieved at that description. I don't think she should be to have that kind of criticism

laid at her door. You know, my view, in any way at all, in my view, is that your husband or partner is the Prime Minister, they're quite able to take decisions themselves. They have a huge team of advisors. And so the idea that as the wife, you're somehow, you know, influencing them over and above what they think or what advice they're getting for their team, I think is kind of demeaning, really, for the prime minister. And I don't think any partner of the prime minister would ever feel that that's the sort of position that they're allowed to be in. And I think you're just trying to do your best

thrust into a position that you may not have been expecting. In my case, when I married my husband, it wasn't a role I was expecting to be in. And you're not trained for it. So I think that... Any advice? I think it's very harsh. I was going to say, any advice for Carrie?

I think you've got to find your own way. Do the things that you enjoy. Do the things that you feel that you're good at. And, you know, be supportive as you can to Boris. I don't think... Because, I mean, other people felt it was just flagrantly sexist as well. I think it is. I mean, I think it is. And I'm not even... I think it's just...

I think it could happen to you're a husband or a wife, potentially. But I think that it's very unfair to pick her out as having some kind of undue influence. I think the Prime Minister and his team should be able to do, you know, you should... Although she is a political operator, I suppose that's the only difference. Some people may say she really actually might not only be able to help, but may be having that influence because of her background. So I suppose that's the other side of it, not the criticism, perhaps, but just the reality of their particular union. But I'm not going to draw you on

that because you might not know anything about it or you can tell us if you do. I don't. But you do know about what it's like to have a baby in there and obviously lockdown's happening. A lot of people listening to this will be at home with their children. Any tips or anything you've found a way to make it easier at Downing Street having a baby?

Is it set up for that? Is it a good place to have one? The apartment's amazing. All the people who work in Downing Street were incredibly supportive. I mean, the apartment's big. I mean, you know, you've got lots of space and there are kind of solid concrete floors and the windows have all got some sort of bomb-proof double glazing. So when you're in the flat, it's incredibly quiet. You feel a bit like a sort of princess in a tower, kind of, you know, it's a very, you can't hear anything going on. Even though there's hundreds of people in the rest of the building,

you've got these amazing views over St James's Park and Horse Guards Parade and you can't hear anything at all because all the walls are sort of so thick. So, I mean, but Florence did used to have a fairly free run of all the offices. As she was a toddler, was very spoiled there i think she she was the one most sad to leave however young she got used to was well yeah she had all these people doting on her giving her sweets and biscuits however much i tried to say can you please not give her sort of sweets every time she comes in the door and she had so much attention they became like this huge extended family so i think it was quite strange for her when we went back

and they're like, well, I'm stuck with you sort of four. Where is everyone? To bring you back to the world of fashion, you did, and you have spoken about the fact that one of the other privileges of the role is you could meet and champion people who are hugely talented as well. And fashion designers in this country obviously fall into that. And you met a lot of those while you were in that position.

I wonder, why do you think, if you do think this, that we still don't take fashion as seriously as, let's say, sport? Because, of course, it's a huge contributor to the economy. It is huge. I mean, it's one of the reasons why I did do quite a lot of work for the British Fashion Council, because it is a huge economic contributor to um uh to this country i don't know it's funny but i was sort of talking with my husband about it because i thought you might ask

and i think you can kind of were you practicing question and answer no i just want to imagine that i always find this question quite tricky because i and i think you can overthink it because of course you can you think oh well if i talk about clothes does it make me sound vain or kind of frivolous but you can't actually get away from the fact that most of us love dressing up we love clothes and if you feel good and feel like you look good on the outside you sort of feel good on the inside and you'll know you do tv and I think how you you know outside perceptions do matter you know when you walk into a room or and I think I learned that very much being in Downing Street because you're in lot you're having to do lots of different types of events and looking appropriate for that event was very important so you might be

meeting the Queen one day you might be I don't know playing going to a youth centre the next day that you're supporting the charity or with just some visiting children with disabilities or you might be at a much more formal event and I think clothes are very clothes and makeup are very much it's about a certain amount of role playing and it's as much about what you're saying or trying to make other people feel comfortable I think as well as giving yourself confidence and empowerment. And I think we'd all be lying if we said that when we walked out of the house in the morning, that if you don't feel good about how you look, that you feel as confident inside. I don't think you do. And I think we just have to accept that.

I don't even overthink it too much as some sort of, you know, feminist thing or not feminist thing. Would you describe yourself as a feminist? Yeah, I would. Yeah. Yeah. You just raised it there. But it's interesting about leaving the house. Obviously, we're not that much at the moment.

No. Lots of us are not getting dressed up or even putting a bra on. I have, just to clarify. In terms of that role, though, and as you say, being, there's role play and being a symbol and putting people at ease. I did read that when you come out of Downing Street, it's a bit of a wind tunnel there. And is that the case to the skirts? There's a concern about the Queen, obviously, and other royals have spoken about weighted, weighted skirts. And I didn't know. Has that ever been or had that been a problem? So when you're on the campaign trail, well, both outside Downing Street and when you're on the campaign trail I mean you

are in a bit of a clothing panic all of the time as as a woman as you say yeah so your skirt blowing up you know what you know what big pants were always a good idea just in case hair I had some terrible hair moments um standing on a kind of cliff I can't remember it was in Dorset or somewhere and I remember on the front page of all the papers my hair was in a sort of a sort of hurricane like spiral on the top of my head so yes you do have to think quite carefully about all of that stuff can you get in and out of a car without you know showing your knickers uh you have to think all that stuff through which the men don't carefully no I mean the hair can blow if they've still got it but and the worst was I think the worst was at the party conference

when I think eventually I asked to be sat in the row behind the front row because otherwise you're having to sit there for an hour and all the cameramen or and women um are sitting at the bottom of the stage so sort of basically kind of looking at your skirt I mean not like yeah they're all sitting on the floor and you're sitting in the front row above them so it's slightly nerve-wracking I bet well that's a good strategy so you know people listening who are affected by this go into the second row I just wanted to ask again because we're spending more time together and we're indoors a lot more being locked down a lot of the time. A lot of people complain when they're other half,

and I'm going to stereotype here slightly, a lot of women have complained, certainly when I've presented programmes over the years, when men retire, when men come home, having them under their feet, them being a bit of a nuisance. Can you relate? I can definitely relate with people who I know who've been in that experience, who know, who've had that experience.

I think for me during lockdown, Dave has been around all the time, obviously, but I've been working very hard and he's been equally doing that. But he has cooked every single meal pretty much during lockdown. So I've been very lucky. I'm the neurotic tidier. So I spend my whole life washing up, tidying, picking up everyone's coats, trainers. They drop everywhere and don't pick up. Whereas he, I'm incredibly lucky that he's shopped and cooked for virtually every meal in the last few months. So I'm very grateful. I suppose it's just also about, I know he has roles and I've read about various things he's doing,

but I suppose it's about how you define yourself after a big job like that and and carry on because he's very young to have been a former prime minister I mean there was also the other side which we we talk a lot about on this program about social media and about the hate that can go on there and and have you or what would you say about supporting him as being in a public role like that when he has had a huge amount of backlash especially around his decision to hold a referendum have you have you found that difficult um i think when you i mean we were in politics for quite a long time sort of pre him being prime minister and i think you just you have to be really tough and you just have to get used to it. You have to accept that there will be an element of that at whatever stage in your career. But this was quite hardcore about the referendum and obviously he had to resign.

He didn't have to, but he did. Yes, but I think you just, I think you always have a sense that you don't know how it's going to end. It could be brutal I mean in British politics I think it is quite brutal just losing an election is quite brutal you're out of there in you know 24 48 hours and I think you just have to be quite tough you know prepared to deal with that and not let it get to you to a stage that it might you know either affect your marriage or your mental health or whatever but yeah of course it's tough you're you're it's a huge privilege doing the role you know doing that role as prime minister um it's a huge responsibility um and so of course i think you have to sort of take that on the you know take

it on the chin and as the and as the spar. So I think you have to be prepared to as well. Has it affected you? Of course, you've launched a brand. You have to be, to an extent, online yourself. We're talking to you, as I say, in your own right, but you still will have people who will perhaps associate you with his policies despite you not being in politics. Not noticeably, I would say um I'm trying to think of kind of I mean of course you get the odd person on social media who

makes kind of comments but I would say surprisingly little actually do you look I mean some people just don't look I mean I don't you know I uh I mean of course I've got an Instagram account so I'd see if people kind of comment. But I think you have to protect yourself to some extent. So I don't go looking for criticism. But on the other hand, I've not been particularly aware. And I go around on the tube and public transport and walk the streets. I've never had, and actually neither of us get much in much in the way of abuse from out about and out

and about at all I mean surprisingly I think much less than you might imagine well I wanted to to kind of get a sense I suppose of of where you've been where it's come to how it is now I have to ask you've got a big birthday coming up yep April 50 yes how are you feeling about that any plans I mean what plans no I mean what plans plans can you make um my daughter I mean I do feel sorry for the teenagers my daughter was 17 last week and um you know for me at 50 I'm not a big birthday celebrator at the best of time I normally sort of go out for curry with Dave on my own um and obviously I might have done a bit more for this one um but you know my daughter was 17 last week. And I think for teenagers it is challenging. You know, they're so, those years are so crucial, aren't they?

They have such an impact on the rest of your life. They're so special. You can't kind of relive those kind of late teens. They're such an exciting time. And I'm hoping everything will get back to normal for her sake so she can go out and date. And how's the home schooling thing in your household? Well, I'm lucky that all of my youngest is 10

and their schools have been, I mean, the second lockdown have been really well organised. And so they are quite able to work on their own online all day. So I don't feel like it's been as challenging as it has for some. I've been in meeting, you know, during the first lockdown, meetings with quite senior people at some of the businesses that we work with and we sell our clothes to,

where you could see them, you know, women, very senior women, with toddlers crying, obviously with no childcare suddenly and no kids in school, still working with toddlers crawling across their lap. Yeah, that's the reality.

And you're like, oh my God. I mean... Well, some women have not been able to keep going with their jobs. I don't think you... I mean well some women have not been able to keep going with i don't think you i mean i think it would be i think i would have found that impossible if i'd had a sort of four-year-old and a five-year-old or whatever and six or no child care homeschooling there's you know and both of you working at home i think it would be impossible millions really challenging and millions of people's realities at the moment. You will perhaps just stay 49 then for another year.

Another year. Gary Barlow's delayed. That's one benefit. Maybe follow Gary's lead. Thank you very much for talking to us today, Samantha Cameron. Thank you. Big response to the idea of first ladies, whether you'd want one or welcome one here in the UK.

And I can say so far it seems to be a fulsome no to that idea. Jo says, no, nothing from the USA, please. We have the Queen. Even in Europe, they're not first ladies. Partners should be allowed to have their own lives as much as possible. Unlike royalty, the prime minister role doesn't last forever.

Phil says, I can't believe I'm hearing this. Samantha Cameron whinging about how difficult it is to sell into Europe as she'd forgotten it was her husband who got us into this mess. There you go. Why give this woman airtime? Otherwise,

I always love your show. Another talking here about the power of clothes and as I say, it seems to be resounding no to the idea of First Ladies.

Joanna says, we already have a First Lady, the Queen. Prime Ministers come and go. I advise a crash course in our unwritten constitution. Kind regards. Thank you for those messages. Keep them coming in

and if you want to get in touch with us it's 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. If you miss anything catch up with it on BBC Sounds where you can listen to Women's Hour at any time of day and I should also say to that last point and a very serious point there

to be made around millions of parents lives across the UK right now and not being able to work. We'll also be talking about the pressure to be able to ask your employer to furlough in short order on the programme as well. So let's do it. Rape victims at the heart of this landmark court case say they have been failed by the Crown Prosecution Service. A judicial review lodged against the CPS by the Centre for Women's Justice and End Violence Against Women Coalition is being heard this week in the Court of Appeal. They say that a change in tactic has led to a more cautious approach

and subsequent collapse in rape prosecutions. The number of rape prosecutions decreased by more than 50% in just two years, between 2016 to 2017 and 2018 to 2019, which is a record decline. And although there has been a very slight improvement since then, concerned women's organisations say that there's still a low proportion of cases being charged. I'm joined by Harriet Wistrich, director of the Centre for Women's Justice. But first, we're going to hear from Kat Araniello, whose case was one of the 20 women who were part of the judicial review. Kat alleges she was raped three times, once at night points over the course of four days in July 2017

by a man with whom she'd previously been in a short, consensual sexual relationship. Kat told her friend about the second and third attacks on the day that they happened. Two days later, at the behest of that same friend, Kat reported the attacks to the police. I asked her if she felt she was taken seriously when she made her report. They were amazing. The investigation team that managed my case were absolutely wonderful. In fact, there was never any doubt in the lead up to the trial that this wasn't going to go through. It was more around making sure I'm not going to drop out as the key witness than, look, let's manage your expectations. There's a chance that this could happen they were

convinced this was going to court and was your attacker charged he was charged with seven offenses but all charges were dropped against him with as you say very short notice before the trial yeah the trial was set for early January and it was literally just for the CPS broke up for Christmas that I was called in and told in fact they'd already released him they didn't consult with me and ask for further information or clarify things when I arrived for that meeting that they didn't want to have with me they were quite happy just to send me a letter over Christmas um it was my investigating officer who actually insisted that they they were held accountable and they they informed me of their decision in person and what

was the reason very vague to this day um so the reason in the letter was an unrealistic prospect of conviction. They alluded to various things during the conversation with them. It was rape myth central. They literally threw every kind of victim blaming comment at me. They tried to say that WhatsApp messages between us were kind of friendly, almost flirty. Well, I did know this guy, you know, and actually after he'd attacked me and wouldn't leave, I think I just went into this zone of when you're in trauma, you do some very odd things. And that's what the CPS failed to grasp. They didn't understand trauma at all. And you do very odd things. And I think I was in survival mode, just keep this man on a you know keep him happy

until I can go to work and then I can speak to my friends they also felt that a jury wouldn't believe me I wasn't a credible witness um on what basis were you not a credible witness exactly so they were alluding to these messages again well do you think a jury would actually believe that you would be acting normal with somebody who's just attacked you well they they do well they are supposed to prosecute rape in marriage women stay married to men that rape them and live everyday lives with them so there's a clear failing there in their appetite to prosecute. Before we get to what happened next, how did you feel when you learned the trial was to not go ahead? Learning in that meeting and not having the prior knowledge completely floored me. So I went in there not prepared for the fact that he was already out. So that completely, you know, I was like,

God, he could have come round. He could be here. You know, what protection have I got? But what I ultimately was left feeling was just completely like, this has been your life and I have given my life to this. You know, I've given every single personal information about myself over and for what? And it literally left me feeling exactly how my rapist had left me feeling humiliated discarded unbelieved unworthy and that evening I genuinely felt so low I actually considered taking my own life and I've never felt like that before in my life. You requested a review of the information regarding the decision

to drop it. Of course, I'm sure a little bit of time after what sounds like a horrific evening and a horrific time for you. What information were you given? Just more of the same, really. So all of the decision meetings were were done as meetings so face to face they at least gave me that uh you know i felt that those meetings were actually very unprepared so i learned through the investigation that the man who attacked had a history of convictions and uh all relating to violence against previous partners. You've waived your right to be anonymous. Why? So I strongly believe that the world needs to know this is happening. And when you're able to put your name and your face to your story,

I think it's really strong and really compelling so people that know me and that don't know me know that it happens to people like them and it is happening all the time to people like them I think it has so much more impact when you when they can see what's happened um rather than you know the silhouette and an anonymous name. And as for shame, there is no shame in coming forward as a victim or survivor of this crime. The shame is for the perpetrator alone. And I'm hoping that by doing this, I'm actually lending my voice to everybody, every other woman and man that's been through this

and hasn't had the support to come forward. Is this your way, informally, of seeking justice? Because the way that you were hoping to do it didn't go ahead. Absolutely. The public needs to know that this happens. Do you know what's happened to the alleged perpetrator? No, no, there is no contact there whatsoever. Do you feel safe no no I I it has crossed my mind that he could hear about this um however I do know that you know the power it sits with me through through

trauma therapy has made me realize he is the weak individual he used his one and only kind of I guess uh you know strength strength over me, which is the physical brute strength. The real power, you know, doesn't lie with him. I have, you know, it's with me and I know that. Kat Araniello, who has waived her right to be anonymous. Let's speak now to Harriet Whitstreet, Director of the Centre for Women's Justice, part of the group bringing this case and trying to mount the case. Harriet, you tell us that the CPS isn't doing its job. Yes, I mean, the challenge that we're bringing of the CPS

is in relation to a dramatic impact of a change in approach, a change that they took covertly without consultation. And that change was brought about in 2016, 2017. So at that point, the conviction, the number of rape prosecutions, the volume of rape prosecutions was going up and up and up. And it was still very, very small. So it's still only a very small number of cases that are reported or actually prosecuted, and an even smaller number of rapes are actually reported. But of those cases, the CPS had achieved an improvement from the seven or so years previously. And then suddenly, in around 2016, 2017, the figures started changing, and then they fell dramatically. So from an average of three and a half to 4,000 rapes prosecuted each year,

the figure fell to below 1,500 by 2019. Now, what was the explanation for that? Well, we were given information by a whistleblower from within the CPS that in a not open way to the outside world, all the specialist rape prosecutors had been trained to what we say was effectively take a slightly more risk averse approach, and to stop using something called the merits based approach. The merits based approach was designed exactly to weed out the sort of things and the sorts of perceptions that might be made in a case like Kat's that we heard.

So, you know, if somebody had a flirty relationship with somebody before the rapes took place, or if they communicated after because of whatever reason in Kat's case, because she was fearful and he was still in the house. That doesn't mean that she wasn't raped. And that is a myth. And that is a myth that the merits-based approach is designed to weed out when you make decisions as to what case stands a realistic prospect of conviction, which is the test for the Crown prosecutors. Belinda's message to say the bravery of the woman who has just been on Women's Art is phenomenal.

Talking about Kat, what a courageous guest with a story we all need to hear. And those stories you've been relying on to take this forward. The CPS, the Crown Prosecution Service sent a statement, a spokesperson said, our duty is to make sure the right person is prosecuted for the right offence, to bring offenders to justice wherever possible. Rape is a devastating crime that has a lasting impact on victims.

No matter how challenging the case, whenever our legal test is met, we will always act to bring the strongest possible case to court. We await the decision of the court, talking about this week, in terms of this case going on appeal. Meanwhile, we're focused on our comprehensive programme of work with the police to drive lasting improvements and narrow the gap between reported rapes and cases going to court. You say this is like a David and Goliath judicial review, to give it its proper name. When are you going to find out if you won or not? The hearing finished yesterday and the three judges have a lot of information to consider.

There was a huge amount of evidence which was put forward and particularly we rely on statistical evidence which shows that the fall in rape prosecutions, the main likely explanation for that is this change of approach. It ties up with when prosecutions started to fall. And the judges say they will deliver a judgment as soon as they're able, but that could be a couple of months away, I would say. Harriet Wistrick, thank you very much for your time. I'm sure we will talk again. And of course, if you need any support, there is a link to helplines for support on the Woman's Hour website on our of. So many famous names. Well, that's the situation that the former Rugby World Cup player Rachel Burford found herself in when training young women at her rugby academy. Why do women playing the sport know so little about former women players and its history and what can be done about it?

Rachel, specifically, what are you doing about it? Good morning. Well, we've set up the Girls Rugby Club to try and inspire, create more opportunities and create incredible moments for young girls who are in the game so they can recognise their role models and the girls who are playing the game. You found that there were what, blank faces when you were saying whose names? Give us an example. So I would be coaching some girls and I'd try and give them an example of maybe would be coaching some girls and i'll try and give them an example of maybe maggie alfonzi very well known in the game emily scarra and some of the girls are kind of looking at their teeth like the girls decided and thinking who's she on about

um and it's quite um demoralizing as well they came on a camp with me knowing not knowing that i was an international as well at times so i think think there's just more of a need to keep showcasing our role models. Were you not tempted to say, do you not know who I am? Oh, no, I wouldn't ever go that far. But, yeah, it was quite a humbling moment when they were kind of like, what does number 12 mean to you? And I'm like, that's my shirt number. They're like, oh, oh, okay.

And I've played in the World Cup. And perhaps you should look up some of those moves that I did. In terms of the names that you've been able to draw upon to help you with this, tell us a bit more about that and how you see this going forward. And if anyone listening wants to get involved. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the Girls Rugby Club is a global project

and, you know, we want, it's definitely going to take a lot of people to get where we want to get to. And our advisory board is just outstanding. And the players that want to be involved, you know, like I just said there, Emily Scarrett, Leanne Riley, Seanan Brown, Flo Williams from the Perception Agency.

We've got so many great people that want to be involved and want to get stuck in because they know, you know, we want to create more opportunities for young girls. We want to have these moments where they look back and they remember that time when Emily Scarrett taught them and then they see her on the TV and then they can aspire to be her. So we've got lots of people involved, but there's still so much to do. I mean, we really want to be female centric so we're looking to find people who are in that space you know researching into women's health menstrual cycle you know women who go off and have children and then come back and play rugby you know we want to

be in that space where we're providing a platform of information and support to to all women and girls involved in the game and yeah we are I was just gonna say do you think having this sort of network and making those names become reality to the girls will also perhaps create a situation where they want to do it full-time you know the idea that this could be your job yeah absolutely i still don't think that everybody really understands that there is an opportunity to be a full-time rugby player and there is a small amount of contracts but it is available and I think you know just showcasing that to say you know if you focus you put your energy and your time and your effort into this then it's an opportunity for you um in later years and I think putting the likes of

you know Shauna Brown and Emily Scarrett in front of these young girls makes them look up and go cool I could do that well thank you very much for coming to talk to us about it how do they look it up how do people look it up you can just find us on social platforms so girls rugby club um but also our website girls rugby club but yeah get in touch with us if you're you know a researcher in women's health and women's sport and want to connect with us please do so and we're on the lookout for everybody to help us on this journey. Thank you very much for talking to us and make sure those girls who are training don't forget your name either in the midst of this ever again. Thanks for having us on.

Rachel Burford there, former Rugby World Cup player trying to make a difference to the game and to those coming through the ranks. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. A new podcast series from BBC Radio 4. In the first stage of a poltergeist haunting, the entity will confine itself to making noise, as if it's testing its victims.

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