Woman's Hour - Samantha Womack as the White Witch in The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe.

Episode Date: July 26, 2022

After an eight month UK tour the children’s classic, The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe comes to London's West End with Samantha Womack - best known for playing Ronnie in Eastenders - taking on the role of the White Witch. Following last night's first TV debate Emma's joined by two women who will have a vote but have yet to decide whether to back the former chancellor Rishi Sunak or the foreign secretary Liz Truss. Sally Ann Marks is the chairman of the Maidstone and Weald Conservative Association and Lizzie Hacking is Deputy Chairman of the Hastings and Rye Conservative Association.If I said the phrase ‘girly drink’ to you, what image would it conjure up? A sweet cocktail, a fizzy wine? Or would you challenge the very notion that some drinks are for women and others for men? To discuss the history of women’s consumption of alcohol and their involvement in making it, Emma is joined by the historian and writer Mallory O'Meara, whose new book is called Girly Drinks – A World History of Women and Alcohol and Melissa Cole, beer writer and author of The Ultimate Book of Craft Beer.Plus as wedding season is upon us - some people will spend thousands on their special day. However Nell Frizzell, an author and journalist whose new novel is called Square One, had a different approach. How surprised was she that when she tweeted that she'd spent just four pounds on the fabric for her dress and her shoes cost one pound went viral. And the woman now campaigning for rights for women to get time off work after a miscarriage after losing three babies herself..Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Big night tonight for England's lionesses on the football pitch, if that's your thing. It's many millions of people's things, it seems at the moment. The semi-finals, can they roar into the final round? Good luck to them. Big night last night for another woman, Liz Truss, hoping to be this country's third female prime minister and the third Conservative woman leader at that.

She and Rishi Sunak squared up to one another. Did you watch it? Do you care? If you did, how do you think they fared? A snap poll of Conservative voters showed 47% thought Truss gave the best performance, with 38% for Sunak. Among the public, it was a dead heat. But it's all about the Conservative members, and I'll be speaking to two of them shortly.

They have a vote, two women who I think are still undecided, but perhaps something's happened, even in the last five minutes, that may have swayed them one way or the other. But who took it for you? Text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged to your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email me your take through the Woman's Hour website.

And there's also this accusation from the trust camp that Rishi Sunak shouted across her too much and aggressively mansplained policies. Did he? Or should she have better held her ground? What's your take on that? Let me know, because it's been brought up how he mansplained. Did he? What do you think about that? I really want to hear your take on that, as well as, of course, the policies and who you want to be the next prime minister. Also on today's programme, as a bumper wedding season starts with many who had had to cancel their nuptials because of lockdown, the bride who has gone viral with her £8 outfit.

Yes, the shoes, the dress, the flowers, a total of £8. During a cost of living crisis, she's done pretty well there and it's caught people's eye. The actor Samantha Womack is here to talk about ruling Narnia and girly boozy drinks in inverted commas. We'll be finding out the real history of women's relationship with alcohol and what we actually like to drink, not what's marketed to us. But first, here on the BBC last night, Rishi Sunak and Liz Truss fiercely debated their positions on tax, spending and

Brexit and other things in front of a live audience of Conservative voters in Stoke-on-Trent. Mr Sunak claimed there was nothing Conservative, quote-unquote, about Ms Truss's promise of immediate tax cuts. She accused him of scaremongering and project fear. Meanwhile, more than 10,000 Conservative members have signed a petition demanding Boris Johnson is added to the Conservative leadership race ballot paper as calls grow for him to remain Prime Minister. Well, I am joined now by two women who will have a vote but aren't yet decided whether they're on Team Sunak or Team Trust. Sally-Anne Marks is the chairman of the Maidstone and Weald Conservative Association and Lizzie Hs is the Chairman of the Maidstone and Weald Conservative Association

and Lizzie Hacking is Deputy Chairman of the Hastings and Rye Conservative Association. A warm welcome to you both. Sally-Anne Marks, I'll say hello to you first. Good morning. Morning. Are you decided? No, I'm not. I'm struggling a bit. What's the problem? Why are neither taking your fancy? Well, they both take my fancy. I both think they could do the job. But I've still got to decide which one I've got to vote for or want to vote for.

At the moment, I want the arguments and the discussion to broaden. We all know what Rishi thinks. We all know what Liz Truss thinks. And they're not going to change. So I think we've got a pretty good idea of their stance. But I really want to get a more broad understanding of what they're going to do about adult social care, the NHS, how they're going to deal with Ukraine situation, China, trade deals, let alone workforce support, let alone how they're actually going to help people who are

really struggling through the cost of living crisis. So that's how I want the debate to go. I'm going to a Hustings later in about 10 days time down in Eastbourne. Looking forward to it very much. And I hope that I will be able to decide after that. I feel like you're getting live texts while we talk to try and sway your votes. They can try. They can try. I think what you're saying there is interesting, of course, because some will feel maybe they've heard China come up, they've heard blows exchanged. But you're still I suppose what you're saying is you don't feel there's much substance yet potentially to go off on those day to day issues with the detail that you need. And yet at the same time, this isn't a general election.

So you could argue that the 2019 manifesto, which Liz Truss actually did bring up at the end, is what the two candidates should be bound by. Just before I go to Lizzie, what do you make of that? Well, I think it's a very good point. However, I still want to know how important these things are to them. Unless we get the economy fixed, then nothing can happen. You know, I get that. I understand it's the big game in time. But I still want to know that each one of them understands the difficulties that people are having, providing social care, reducing the NHS waiting lists, and so on. There is so much still to do. So I don't want them to be a single issue Prime Minister. I do want to understand better that they've got that wider view. Lizzie, let me bring you into this. Good morning.

Good morning. And your vote is still up for grabs, is that right? Yeah, and I would echo what Sally-Anne said. I think it's a very long campaign and I think there's a lot of issues that still do need to be delved into a bit further. Last night, I was disappointed that some of the time was taken up talking about people's outfits and the cost of earrings, when we could have heard a lot more about the environment,

which is something that my generation really, really care about. And your generation being just as people don't know? Yeah, so I'm 28 years old. So I'm a millennial. And I've been looking at things from that point of view. And for me, I would say I was slightly concerned about the idea of 7% interest rates with Liz Truss's economic plan. As somebody who has quite a young mortgage and my peers who are very in similar situations, that for me would be hugely expensive to try and absorb that. So I think I'd like to hear a lot more

detail. And from that point of view, I think Rishi came across really, really well, but still not 100% decided. Well, this evening, I should say my colleagues on the Today programme are doing a special panel, Michelle Hussain is being joined by a panel of experts to look at what's being said about those rates and the fiscal policy generally. So perhaps a bit more detail on, you know, there's one thing to say one thing, but what actually be the reaction to that and what would be the reality which you're talking about?

Because some of that's being quibbled. So you can join us later on Radio 4 for that. But Lizzie, I suppose, just to keep going with you, if I can, there's this charge from the trust camp that Rishi Sunak was mansplaining i have to say quite a few messages coming in on that uh what one here talking about uh a response from marie she says mansplaining get a grip people trust gave a lightweight performance end of uh was he

mansplaining i think would we even be using the term mansplaining if she wasn't a woman and we wouldn't be we wouldn't be using it if her camp weren't spinning that particular line at the moment, you could argue as well. You know what, they're both very senior politicians. They're both hugely experienced. I do think that politics for right or for wrong is quite a tough game and she held her own and I don't think we should be feeling sorry for her

and saying that these comments are valid. And actually, I thought she did a really good performance. So it's a bit of an own goal by her own camp to be saying that, because it's from her side of things that they're putting that particular line out, if you like. I think it almost makes her out to be a victim

when I personally don't think she is at all. I think she's a very capable individual. Sally-Anne, what do you make of that? Absolutely right. You know, they are both feisty, passionate people. Let's face it, they are. They both believe very strongly that their view is right.

On the other hand, at the end, peace broke out everywhere. And it was pretty obvious that they're both going to be open to having the other in their cabinet should they be successful. So they say on television. But let's see. I'm sure politics is such a lovely, cosy game when it really gets down to it. Sally-Anne, do you care? And I think it's interesting, your titles, both your titles, Chairman, right?

There will be some of our listeners who will be thinking, why didn't you introduce them as Chairwomen? But that's not the title that you hold. And neither of you wish for me to change that, I understand. But does it matter to you, Sally-Anne, about having a woman, a third woman? It is the third from the Conservatives as third overall for this country if it happens again. Do you care about Liz Truss potentially a bit more because of that? Honestly, I want the right person for the job. And really and truly, this chairman stuff, it's been going on for years. I've been chairman of Surrey County Council. I'm very, very happy and actually privileged to be in that position.

And the first time somebody called me chair, I asked them to desist since I wasn't a piece of furniture and have never been sat on in an argument. So actually, let's get over that. I'm not interested in the nomenclature, if you like. What I am interested in very much is having the right person for the job, which is why I am taking my time to really think about and read as much as I can and do as much research as I can to decide this really important issue. Of course, the Conservative Party's streets ahead of anybody else because we have had such a diverse set of leaders and jolly good too, but they happen to have been the best people at the time for the job. As you would see it, as chairman of a Conservative Association and a Conservative voter, there are a lot of people who really wish this wasn't being

left to a very small group of people to decide the next Prime Minister, because of the way that this system works. Yes, Labour have the same system, should they be in this position. Lizzie, do you ever feel a bit queasy about that? That a very small group of people, it's not your fault, but I just wonder, you've got this vote that I don't have around me. You know, there aren't lots of people, there might be some Conservative members around me right now, but I mean, my point is, as a citizen, you don't naturally have this right now.

You don't have this as a law, because if you're not a member of the Conservative Party, you just can't have a say in the next Prime Minister. Do you feel weird about that, Lizzie? No, I don't. I think that that is the rules. And now would, I think, be wrong to try and change that at this point. And don't forget, at the end of the day, general elections are there, the electorate will get a say in two years time, should this prime minister not be doing what the country requires of them. So I think it's important that we defend the democracy that we already have, which I think is absolutely fantastic.

And just going back to the mansplaining, I think it is wonderful and should be celebrated the fact that two very different opinions can be raised in quite a heated situation perhaps, and that that is absolutely acceptable in this country and there's no fallback. We are incredibly privileged to have the system that we have now. So I think to say that it's queasy because Conservative members get to choose their prime minister, I think we just need to have a bit of a look at how fortunate we are to live within this country. Get to choose their prime minister, but the prime minister for all, which would be an immediate response from some of our listeners.

I've got a message here saying Rishi Sunak was rude and aggressive to Liz Truss and to the chair, Sophie Ray, with my colleague. He talked over them both, interrupted constantly. Liz was so much cooler and professional. Rishi was also given the first chance to ask the vast majority of questions, which I didn't think was fair at all. One view from Diane, who's listening in Sunderland, another person saying absolutely he was not rude,

but the whole schoolyard attitude was felt to be across in terms of both of the candidates and the debate. May I just ask about Sally-Anne to you first of all about this situation with more than 10,000 Conservative members signing a petition to ask for Boris Johnson's name to be added to the ballot paper. Sally-Anne your vote's up for grabs. Would you like a third option in the form of Boris Johnson? No, not really. I think, gosh, no, because that would only extend this long period of hiatus. No, we are where we are. And it's OK, it's 10,000 people. It's a lot of people who feel very strongly. But out of 185,000 people, no, it's a very small, small majority,

small amount of people who want that. And who knows, who knows, Boris is still a Conservative, he's still an MP. And I am sure and I hope that in two years time, when we have the general election, he will be out there campaigning. And he is an asset in a campaign. There's no doubt he's got huge abilities. He has flaws, don't we all? But the point is, he is a conservative. Did you go off him when he got a fine from the police? I beg your pardon? Sorry. Did you go off Boris Johnson when he got a fine from the police? I was, yes, I was sorry that it had happened, of course. There's a little bit of me that thinks,

well, it was in his own home. I'm not trying to excuse it. And he plainly was wrong, of course. But we are all flawed. And I think he, you know, he certainly does have some flaws to his character, and I hope he'll spend the next two years reflecting on how he could have done better. He's still got a lot to offer. He's only in his 50s, for goodness sake. He could easily come back one day. I don't think he's gone

away forever. After La Vista, baby. That's how that ended, that particular Prime Minister's questions. Sally, I hope we'll talk again as you come to a conclusion. It'd be very interesting to keep in touch. Thank you for your time this morning. The chairman, man of the Maidstone Weald Conservative Association. I'm making Sally-Anne smile there. Lizzie, let me give the final word to you. The idea of Boris Johnson back on that ballot paper, would you, would your friends of perhaps a similar generation who are fellow members, would you welcome that?

No, I think we have to respect the decision that the MPs made and trust their judgment that this was the right call and fully commit to uniting the party again in September and going forwards from there to help this country. Just one more, if I can, very quickly. This message here I thought you'd like to respond to, Lizzie, which just said, what depressed me was that both candidates represented only the right wing of the Conservative Party, which used to be a broader party. I fear for the country as Mr Johnson created an extremist wing through Brexit nationalism. This sounds like somebody who likes the Conservative Party or at least understands it or felt like they were part of it.

How do you feel about that view? Just quickly, if you can. There is still a huge breadth of views within the Conservative Party, and they're very much welcomed. And I do think, don't forget, there will be a cabinet which will bring all different levels of views from a range of areas of the party and feed into that. And also the fact that we are able to debate these sorts of things, I think is really healthy within the party. I don't think it's gone hugely right wing. I don't think either candidate are particularly extreme and I can't see us

ending up polarised in the way that America is with our current systems in place. Lizzie, do come back. Let us know when you get there with your decision. It'd be great to hear from you again. Thank you for your time as well this morning. Lizzie Hacking, Deputy Chairman of the Hastings and Rye Conservative Association. Now, somebody's just walked in who you will definitely recognise

from various roles over a long career that you will have got to know her in different guises. You may know her as Ronnie Mitchell from EastEnders. But now Samantha Womack is taking on a role of a more regal persuasion. The Queen of Narnia herself, the White Witch in the much-loved children's tale, The Line, The Witch and the Wardrobe. The production has just opened in the West End of London,

the latest stop in its UK tour. The C.S. Lewis tale that many of you will know, will love, charts the journey of four siblings as they're evacuated to the countryside during World War II and happen upon Narnia through the back of a wardrobe, of course, a magical land full of colourful and mystical creatures, including the formidable and scary White Witch, Samway Mug. Good morning. Morning. Thanks for being with us.

You're welcome. Just to reassure listeners, I'm not actually also a new candidate for the Conservative Party. I'm not here to sell my wares. You're not? You haven't even brought any Turkish delight. I didn't, no. Poor Edmund, poor me. You're apparently in this, and I hope I can get to see it. I would very much like to, but you look amazing in the images that I've seen. Formidable. What drew you to this particular role? It was a really lovely piece to do coming out of the pandemic. So I think the pandemic,

all of us were kind of, you know, struggling with massive questions, weren't we? Like, what does life mean outside of the norm? All the things that we normally depend on to feel relevant. So a story about theology in the natural world, it felt very gentle, it felt very nostalgic, and quite poignant. So it was a nice piece to come back to. Yes, and the theology element when you're a child, I don't think you really pick up on. You don't pick up on it in terms of, you're not understanding that there are theological issues in there, but certainly for me it was one of the first books that I'd read that dealt with death.

You know, thinking this was written, you know, 60, 70 years ago, and actually that was a time when, you know, stories at that time were sanitized and very kind of sweet. And so C.S. Lewis came along and kind of, you know, they were terrifying tales, but dealing with quite big issues. And he was fascinated with that. He had a fascinating life and had a lot of loss in his own personal life. So I think he was constantly seeking the answers to those questions about what does love mean?

What does loss mean? And so it feels like a really beautiful piece of work. And we've kept it in that vein. It feels it's not sanitized. It's not Disney perfect. You know, it's a kind of dark and elegant production, which I'm really proud of. It's visually very beautiful. Does it give you the range? I mean, do you play it as frightening?

How do you come at it? Does it give you that? Is it thrilling to play? Yes. And the bit that's really interesting is that she kind of she changes and morphs. So I remember that from the description in the book that when she she smells damage in people. And so she is very clever with the Turkish delight. She understands that that choice of sweet from Edmund is light, it's perfumed, it's fragrance, and it's his longing for a female presence in his life. So her voice changes and she becomes sickly sweet,

like the Turkish delight, and kind of tries to woo him and seduce him. And that's a really interesting part to play because she's serpent-like. You don't really get to play the kind of full villain woo him and seduce him. And that's a really interesting part to play because she's serpent-like. You don't really get to play the kind of full villainess until the end, which is, yeah, it's fun. I bet. The energy doing that and then coming into that

towards the end. I think it also is just one of those things where it's so evocative, the way it's written. I can still remember the way she's described when you first meet her. Yes, and I remember the kind of smell of the wardrobe, you know, kind of the crunching of the snow under Lucy's feet. I remember all of that, which is crazy thinking that we all read it kind of, you know, 20, 30 years plus ago. So, yeah, the writing is very strong. And I

certainly think that part of your brain when you're forming ideas, kind of five, six and seven, the first stories that you read, if they impact you in that way, you'll never lose them. And I think that that's the kind of nostalgia that this show brings. So many people come back. It's multi-generational. You've got grandparents who kind of read it to their children first time round and then children as young as kind of four and five. You know, sometimes quite hairy for them because let's go say are there some screams yeah well there was one last night actually and I felt personally responsible and I kind of it was my job as a mother or an actress and I got quite confused because I wanted to kind of tame my performance down because I could see this child that was horrified so I didn't quite know what to do but um it's beautifully dark and you never saw us when we were watching you play a Mitchell

sister we were screaming at that sometimes yeah she was quite terrifying um it's it's what's lovely is is genuinely watching people be moved by the piece of work that they're seeing that feels very special um we've got puppeteering we've got um actor musicians on stage so kind of floating cellos violins fiddles um it's it really is kind of all-encompassing um and for me certainly i mean i've been watching it from the side of stage for you know six months plus but i'm still moved by it Aslan's speech um you know to to his audience is just beautiful and poignant and it's done to kind of you know violins and cellos it's just it's very lovely yes well I I think as you say when you read something that powerful and then it stays with you you don't care about what age you are although if you're

four and you're screaming that's a slightly different thing I was very disappointed to completely lower the tone that when I did finally try Turkish Delight I didn't like it it's horrid you don't like it either 70s they did didn't it fries Turkish Delight so not only was it bad but they then covered it in chocolate oh my grandmother used to have it in a fruit bowl in a flat we're now going to get messages believe me telling us that we think we're right and we're completely wrong. Do you have to eat it on set? Luckily, I don't have to eat any. And I think Edmund, I'm not sure, actually, I don't know if his is real or fake.

I think it's fake. I think it's little bits of foam. But we have huge pieces of Turkish Delight, which are lit in kind of, you know, deep shades of pink. And they fly across the stage. Those I like. And it's just wonderful. And then they form a huge kind of image of a man, a Turkish Delight man. And he moves across the stage. Those I like. And it's just wonderful. And then they form a huge kind of image of a man, a Turkish delight man, and he moves across the stage.

Now we're talking. That's fine. I don't have to eat that. Although we've already had our first message saying, you're wrong, it's yummy. I told you, you're never in the majority when you think you are. It's for you, though. You say you're watching from the side, though. Do you, when you have been able, and you're not doing a live performance,

when you've done things like EastEnders or things on television, you've done many, many shows, do you watch yourself back? No, no. Ever? No, I find it really disturbing. I don't like it at all. I like to have the experience of working and then just leave it alone. I think when I was younger, I would make the mistake because people said, you know,

you should watch what you do and kind of learn from it. And I just was constantly paranoid. You don't want to be thinking about what you're doing too much. You want to just kind of give yourself over to the experience. So, no, I don't have photos. I don't have CDs. I don't have DVDs. I just once it's gone, it's gone.

Do you watch Eurovision? I love Eurovision. I didn't like I didn't love being in it we need to talk about that just briefly because I did not know I still have PTSD but I love watching it

you were 90? I was a baby and I was a session singer I wasn't ever supposed to do it and you were part of our entry you were yeah but I was only supposed to do backing vocals

and then the producer came in and heard me sing it in the studio and I think at the time I didn't really understand the enormity of what I'd said yes to. For me, it just meant more money. What year was this?

91. 91, okay. The only reason I thought of Eurovision this morning, apart from the fact that you played a role in it and I hadn't known, was the fact that we're hosting it. It's been decided. I don't know if you saw this in the news. I didn't know that.

Yes, no, next next year after organisers said it couldn't be held in the winning country Ukraine of course due to the ongoing war so there's now obviously a conversation about where it's going to be in the UK

so there is excitement for those who love that and I didn't know if you've done something like that you say you have PTSD can you still watch it I can still watch it just being deeply relieved

that I'm not in it I bet I bet I also just had to ask you and I remember on the day the day after we talked about her but you did work with June Brown dark cotton died earlier this year at age 95 I mean what a woman yeah she really speaking on woman's out yeah no she's she's phenomenal I mean she I mean her early career I'd spend hours with June um in her dressing room um just chatting to her because we got to do a lot of scenes together and she was fiercely protective

of all the characters in the show including mine she kind of fought valiantly to I don't know just kind of protect the characters and remember their history I was always very moved by her memory of other people's stories, not just her own. But, yeah, her life in the theatre and raising children, she, you know, kind of taking children on tour with her. She was a tour de force, but she was a very, very warm and supportive friend, for me anyway, during my time there.

That's lovely. And just phenomenal. her talent was phenomenal she she rewrote a whole scene once there was an explanation of kind of Ronnie's story depicting her kind of her loss of her baby and all the storylines after that and it wasn't completely accurate and so she sat down and she said no I've got to get it just right because it's important and she she kind of made all these adjustments and then she did it in one of those wonderful scenes where she was just smoking a cigarette in her kitchen and and tells Ronnie's story and I sat and watched it on the on the monitors and just thought wow she's she's incredible the attention to detail yeah and just thought, wow, she's incredible. The attention to detail. Yeah, and just to her very last day,

just fought and cared immensely about her job. It sounds like there was a real friendship across a lot of the cast and also a real sisterhood, because is it right that you're still very close to Roxy? To Rita, who played your sister. Yeah, because we spent the best part of nine years pretending to be related. So your brain starts to you know that's

the majority of your day is is making out that somebody else is related to you and you do that with all the members of the cast so leaving a job like that the job is one thing but leaving the personal relationships is quite confusing because in your mind you've invested in a family for 10 years yes and their chemistry but the chemistry also looked very real between you yeah it was i mean we from day one we did um when we were auditioned we we had a great chemistry and we listened to each other really well i think that was part of our thing was listening or maybe get around for your revision and get some turkey delight on the go it sounds good. Well, Samo Mark, it's lovely to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed.

We won't keep you because you've got to get back to it. Go straight to the theatre. Queen Narnia herself. In the Lion and the Witch and the Wardrobe as it hits London's West End. Delightful to have you on the programme. Thank you. You're getting in touch. Many of you this morning just to talk about a completely

different sort of theatre. Last night's debate and what you are thinking about the next prime minister, if you are thinking about it. Amanda wants to say something about the title chairman. I agree 100% with your speaker regarding that title. I was also chairman of an authority and found it equally silly to be referred to as a chair. Nowadays, it's conventional to refer to actresses as actors, so surely this debate is passé. As regarding the upcoming Tory leadership election, as so often is the case,

the best candidates never push up in the first place. Joanne says we desperately need a general election to clear out these awful people. Only have to look at Taunton and Wakefield, not interested, still acting as though they're still important and have the people after 12 years of terrible governance. John's view is they do not. Of course, there'll be different views of that. And certainly in that locale, Phil says the thing about mansplaining is that you have to be telling someone what they already know.

Disagreeing with someone can never be mansplaining. Apologies for having to explain this. Ah, Phil, thank you. That was good. I didn't enjoy it, though. Sunak did better, in my opinion. Someone before was saying it was trust, he was more poised. I'm a lifelong Conservative Party member, age 60, no blue rinse. He was a breath of fresh air,

clearly intelligent, called out the government jargon. The pandemic was hugely expensive and the NHS is creaking and needs to be reformed and funded. Inflation is always the enemy. This be reformed and funded. Inflation is always the enemy. This trust looked dated and wooden, too many promises and slightly head mistracy. Can we please stop talking about clothes and jewellery, so many other issues in our

fantastic country that need sorting? And I can't understand the point reads this message of all this coverage of Tory leadership campaign. Most of us don't have a voice at all and all we can do is lie back and take it. No name on that particular message. But thank you for taking the time to express how you feel at the moment about this. Now, wedding season is upon us. Some will spend thousands on that special day. The average cost of a wedding last year was around £17,000. But one woman tweeted that she had spent just £4 on the fabric for her dress, her shoes, one pound. And in fact, her whole outfit coming in at around eight pounds.

The tweet went viral. And that woman joins me now, Nell Frizzell, an author and journalist and also with a new book out, I'm told, called Square One. But let's get to the nuptials or certainly how we were dressed for them. Nell, your message certainly seems to have struck a chord why do you think it has hi yeah it's interesting isn't it i think we're in the midst of a cost of living crisis people are you know after the pandemic even more sort of hobbled by the difficulty in bringing people together gathering affording big occasions so i think the idea that you can do this kind of thing on the cheap is very appealing but also I think my generation who've been interested in sustainability and in a kind of DIY culture for years have always been making things doing things themselves cooking food you

know doing up their homes all that kind of thing So I was quite surprised that so many people wanted to comment and share a picture of me in my wedding dress because, like I've been saying, I made the suit for when the paperback of my first book, The Panic Years, came out out of an old pair of curtains. I made the dress from the Square One launch out of £2 worth of fabric. My outfit for Hay Festival was £ pounds worth of fabric from a recycling kind of craft um project that runs in oxford where i live i've been doing this for years i don't and maybe it's just the fact that it's a wedding and people have such expectations about what weddings

look like how much they cost i mean 17 000 pounds that is really shocking that's actually quite you know for some people though that that's quite cheap because that's the average cost you know I'm not saying that's I'm not saying that's affordable I'm just saying this is what can end up happening and you know there'll be people listening thinking well I had to have this person and then the minute I said to this supplier it was a wedding this went up by this and I mean you talked about four pounds on the fabric you sewed the dress so you have to have some skill there, which I'm going to say I don't have. I should say shout out to my neighbour because I was making the dress the day before

and my sewing machine, which I've had since I was 17, started to break. Sent out a desperate WhatsApp message to my neighbourhood group and the lovely Sarah at number 83 brought me around her machine. And she said,

have you got a sewing emergency? And I said, I can't believe I'm telling you this but yes I've got to wear my wedding dress tomorrow and I can't finish it is it so I'm yeah is it your first wedding yes it is okay that was a question that had come in at one pound for the shoes from a car boot sale is that right yeah that's pretty good and as I said to my friend even if they broke they only you know even if it worked out at sort of 30p an hour that's pretty good for a pair of shoes yeah it is charity shop headband uh you made your veil from a one pound off cut borrowed some makeup and a second hand ring did the groom do the same yeah he wore the suit he's been wearing as a teacher for probably the last two or three years he's been wearing as a teacher for probably the last two or three

years he's been writing job interviews for at least a decade okay um he had the shoes already he did iron his shirt and my bouquet I should say was flowers all the flowers I've been given for my book launch and various events in the run-up I dried outside my back door and I used that as my bouquet lovely I mean I couldn, I couldn't quite, it looked pretty beautiful. I could see when I, when I zoomed in on the, on the image. Well, pretty dry. My mum said, that's a very climate change bouquet. That's the best kind of compliment, right? Yeah, a mum, a sort of jellyfish mum compliment that it seems so soft on top with a real sting underneath.

I look forward to honing that skill. I only have a four-year-old, but I'm sure they'll be coming. Those skills, that's a great way of describing it. I'm going to remind myself of that the next time I receive one of those from my own mother. Let me also just say, though, I think the reason, as well as there being a cost of living crisis,

if I may say that, I think people also respect it, not just because of the sustainability thing and how important that is, that whole area. And obviously people trying to rent dresses now and all those sorts of things. It's because when you're the bride, even the most sustainable of us still perhaps for us want to have a new dress or want to have that moment. So I think it's that as well. I don't know what you make of that.

Well, I would argue it is a new dress. It was to me no no I meant sorry but you know the bells and whistles there is a little voice in your head that thinks oh I should be treating myself a phrase that I've got a lot to say about or the idea that you should you know that an outlay is an investment, whereas actually I think so many people who wrote to me about the dress said really hearteningly actually the investment is almost disproportionate to the amount of money you spend, that the people who bought a ring from Littlewoods for 20 quid and have been together for 45 years, you know, they see that there is actually maybe a sort of counterintuitive relationship between how much you think spending on your relationship counts and how much effort emotional effort you know the emotional spending the psychological spending people just sometimes

also don't think about it i mean that's the reality you know they they don't necessarily give it some thought and i'm really lucky i suppose to have a peer group and a family who are supportive of that kind of thing if i had you, you know, an auntie Marge who was shown up by the fact that we all walked around to a pub around the corner where my ex-boyfriend knew the manager and had pizza. But like maybe it would have been difficult. But actually, as it is, we're quite a ramshackle, dysfunctional, cheap bunch. So they're all quite happy to join in. Wow. Have you written that down on a card for your mum for mother's day yeah that was the vow we're a ramshackle dysfunctional cheat bunch I love that you need to get that on the you can print that on the dress now it's finished

no it's it's brilliant I mean I think I may have said this before on this program but I do think with horror to to my dress actually hanging up in my in-laws, it's 10 years on since I got married and it just sort of hangs there like a body bag and I don't know what to do with it. Like a dark secret. What do I do? This idea, Emma, I don't know what you think about it, but we're going to have another party where we live

because we got married in London but we don't live there. And I wanted to say to people if you still have your wedding dress and you wish you could wear it you've never been able to wear it again wear it to my wedding it would be so fun now all those people with their wedding suits or wedding dresses whatever it is they chose to wear they maybe spent a lot of money or definitely time and energy choosing it and haven't worn it for 10 years I'd love for them to turn up in their wedding. Right, I'm in. I'm in. I'm in. Invite me.

I'm there now. Come down in your wedding dress. I want to meet the ramshackle, cheap, dysfunctional bunch. Nell Frisell, thank you very much for talking to me. And congratulations. Thank you. Lovely to have you on. Absolutely brilliant.

Just do keep getting in touch. I'm sure some of you will. We've got a message here, and I thought we would have a few of these. One saying, I made my own wedding dress from a remnant from Laura Ashley in touch. I'm sure some of you will. We've got a message here and I thought we would have a few of these. One saying, I made my own wedding dress from a remnant from Laura Ashley

in 1972. It still has the tacking stitches in the pin tucks. That's the sort of content that I'm always up for and all of your views, of course,

still coming in about politics. And I'm also looking forward to our annual listener week. I wanted to tell you about this just briefly, which begins when I'm back from my holidays. It's beautifully coinciding, 22nd of August, actually about the week before.

But I really, really want to make sure as many of you know about this as possible. It is the week when you're in charge. You decide the topics you'd like us to explore. We've posted about it on social media already. But if you aren't on there or perhaps you missed it, I just want to tell you if there is an issue, a story, an interview, you've always wanted to hear

us tackle on this programme, please get in touch. You know I listen, you know the team listens, I hope you know that by now. www.bbc.co.uk forward slash Women's Hour.

That's one way of getting in touch. Or text us 84844 text to charge your standard message rate or let us know on social media at the charge at your standard message rate or let us know on social media at BBC Women's through Twitter and Instagram. Just get in touch, have a

think, let us know. You've got a little bit of time but we need a bit of time to set it up so please do do that. Now my next guest who's just joined me in the studio is trying to do something difficult but extremely worthwhile. She's trying to turn immense personal sadness and grief into a heartfelt campaign to help other women and families. Keeley Langthorne has been in a situation that some of you might be able to relate to, and I should say, of course, this might be difficult for some listeners to hear. But if you haven't also been through this, it's something perhaps you should engage with because it's about rights and it's also about women's rights.

Keely has lost three babies in three years and each, of course, brought heartache and she needed time to recover. But she was shocked and concerned to discover that there are no legal rights for any leave from work. This is, of course, if you suffer a miscarriage or loss before 24 weeks. And I should say, Keeley was lucky. Her law firm, where she works, were understanding.

But Keeley, who's with me now, Keeley Langthorne, I know you started a campaign. Good morning. Thank you, Emma. Welcome to the programme. Before we just talk about the campaign, I just wanted to say how sorry I am for your loss thank you because it's very important to to say that and to acknowledge it yeah and still very

raw of course and and it the the latest loss if I may put it like that was in March of this year yeah so we lost our son George on the 3rd of March and This year he was born sleeping at 22 and a half weeks after my waters broke. George was an IVF baby, my only embryo that survived. Yeah, unfortunately he was born weighing just one pound. That was my third loss, my first miscarriage having been um in 2020 um i miscarried at six and a half weeks in the office at work um and then in february last year um i was rushed to hospital um i'd had an ectopic pregnancy emergency surgery um because the pregnancy had ruptured and had to have one of my fallopian tubes removed um hence why we had to have IVF for George right so that was why you had to go along that particular route yeah again I am

I am so incredibly sorry and this is as you say very recent very raw all of your losses but particularly this year and and in this time you've made this discovery about rights and lack of rights yeah I think after after george was born i had lots of women we set up a just giving page for george and we've raised over over 20 000 pounds for for simba and for sands who are two charities that helped us immensely since george died and i had people reaching out to me and we're on linkedin saying like how have your work been because i had to go straight back to work after my miscarriage um I was really lucky at the at the end of last year um I had taken note of what the New Zealand president had done in New Zealand and whereby they enacted a policy across New Zealand whereby

you get three days um leave upon the death of a child under 24 weeks um so I worked closely with my firm at Taylor Rose and my HR director and we put in place that policy within the business um that went live in the new year unfortunately I was the first person to use it um yeah so they they were really really really great fantastic but I had lots of women reaching out and saying like well what can I do what rights have I got and then when I looked into it it dawned on me that there is no legal entitlement to any leave or any pay in circumstances where pregnancy loss occurs before 24 weeks so even if you have a baby at 23 weeks and six days or or you have a baby at 22 and a half weeks that I had George, that there's no legal protection, you're expected to go back to work the next day.

I gave birth to George I kissed him, I cuddled him, I loved him we had our photo done of him he was a fully formed baby, 10 fingers, 10 toes hair and the thought of giving birth to a baby and then you're expected to return back to work the next day is just

beyond me. And it's also been beyond some politicians. I understand MPs or a few of them have looked at this. Is that right? Yeah. So Angela Crawley MP is working to put together the miscarriage leave bill. So she met with me a few weeks ago just before the first reading. And she took a lot of what I had to say on board. She looked at the baby loss policy I drafted for the firm and she mentioned myself and George during the first reading in Parliament which I'm pleased to say was a success. So we're going for

the second reading on the 16th of September when hopefully the bill will be enacted. So that means that it will entitle everyone to a discretionary leave of three days paid leave. So that's what is the is the ask on. Yes. Because I mean, as a spokesperson said from the Department of Business in this statement for the programme said, losing a child is devastating for parents, which is why we've legislated to give parents who are in this terrible position, including those who have a stillbirth after 24 weeks, which we just talked about, a statutory right to parental bereavement, leave and pay. The entitlement is just a starting point for employers. We urge them to show compassion and flexibility towards women who have suffered a miscarriage and to respond sensitively to each individual's specific needs. But I suppose your point to that would be it's leaving it to the discretion of the employer. Yeah, it's leaving it to the goodwill. I think we're in a situation where we can no longer rely

on the goodwill of our employers. Obviously, the policy or the passing of the bill will ensure that employees are protected. But having a formal policy is integral to workplace well-being we always talk about well-being and this is at the the heart and the core of it um how are we in 2022 and we haven't got such a policy in place to protect employees and protect their rights how are women expected to go and give birth and then go to work the next day it's beyond me I was quite lucky I had an eight hour birth with George but I had a seven hour placental delivery after and then what the law says I go back to work the next day. If I made it with your specific situation you've talked about your firm actually being supportive some things were already in place that you had talked about and already looked at you know how are you doing now you know I know

some of our listeners would like to hear that um every day I would say is a struggle um I'm trying to channel in my my grief I suppose into to doing this to help other people so that George has a legacy um and that all these losses are not for nothing and that this heartache hasn't been for nothing. But there needs to be change and I need to. So I'm getting lots of help from Simba. I'm getting lots of help from SANS and bereavement counselling. And counselling.

Yeah, so I'm having specialist baby loss counselling. My counselling's been amazing. The NHS has been amazing. I have a designated bereavement midwife. I didn't even know such a thing existed. No. But as soon as we were told George wouldn't make it, I was appointed a specialist bereavement midwife

who still works with me now. And you say we and your partner? Yeah, myself and my husband, Will, yeah. How's he? Yeah, he's OK. Again, his firm were brilliant with him, but we had a lot to take in. So we were lucky that George had...

We were given a cold cut when George was born, so we were able to spend his birthday with him. But obviously we had a funeral to arrange. His work were brilliant. He's good. He went back a week before me. I only had in total, I think, seven weeks off work. But I felt like I needed, that was my choice.

I felt like I needed to go back. I felt I needed to try and get back to some sort of, I think it's called my new norm. Because my life will never be the same. But I'm just trying to find my new normal now. And do a campaign alongside. Yeah, do the campaign. As well as some incredible fundraising.

Yeah. So, yeah, we've raised just over £20,000 for Simba and Sands. And I'm just trying to put all my efforts now into encouraging employers to enact this baby loss policy. Because we know, Emma, that laws take a long time to go through. And we don't know the second reading is going to be successful. But I hope if we keep the momentum up, then we can make some change. Because the statistics speak for themselves. One in four pregnancies end in miscarriage.

Thank you very much for being able to talk today. You know, it's one thing to campaign, but coming to talk on the radio is a completely different thing. And I hope it was OK for you to do that. It was. Thank you very much. Thank you for coming on. K keely langthorne there and of course it's actually very relevant what she's saying because we've been talking essentially when we're talking about who's going to be the next leader we've been talking about politics throughout policies changes laws how it's how it's all going to work and and you know you've been getting in touch about all sorts

of our conversations today all sorts of elements of them, like you always do, that you're generous to do. You keep me company every day, or rather, I hope I keep you. A message, if you like, about who could be a very good new leader. One here that says Liz Truss comes across as a good number two, not a number one. I don't trust her fiscal policies. Rishi Sunak annoyed me by his constant interruptions of Liz Truss. I've seen many of you getting in touch about whether that was mansplaining or not. Even so, he's the right candidate for the job. I feel

he has integrity and is honest about how to take the UK forward. Who cares about his clothes? Why are the British so down on people who've worked hard to succeed? Rishi Sunak's grandmother was an immigrant, so he understands the fight to survive and thrive. Another message here in support of

Liz Truss, talking about her vision being more in line with the Conservative vision. And so it goes on. And again, some concern about Rishi Sunak, for instance, Linda here says, would not stop talking over both Liz and the chair, Sophie Raworth. I found him arrogant, petulant and rude, says Linda. Keep your messages coming in and perhaps you'll even want a drink for the next conversation because if I did say the phrase girly drink to you, what image would conjure up? A sweet cocktail, a fizzy wine,

the women from Sex and the City with Cosmos? Or do you challenge that notion quite regularly that some drinks are for girls, others for boys? Here to discuss the history of women's consumption of alcohol and their involvement in making it and producing it is historian and writer Mallory O'Meara, whose new book is called Girly Drinks, A World History of Women and Alcohol, and also with us Melissa Cole, beer writer and author of The Ultimate Book of Craft Beer. Welcome to you both. Sorry we've only given you tea this morning, but Mallory, I'm going to come to you first.

Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me on. The title's a bit tongue-in-cheek. It is. It is. It's intentionally so. I really wanted to challenge those ideas about what is a girly drink. Yes. And what do you mean by that? What has been meant by that? I gave a bit of a flavour. Oh, I mean, it's anything sweet, anything with a flower in it, an umbrella, anything that might be a bright colour, anything that, you know, like you said, someone maybe in Sex and the City might be drinking. But I wanted to prove that all drinks are girly drinks. All drinks are women's drinks.

And you also looked into the history of women and making alcohol, brewing. Let's talk about brewing. Yes. Brewing is a lady thing. That's for girls. Tell me more. I mean, historically, I mean, really from the very beginning of time when brewing started thousands and thousands of years ago, it was a women's activity. It was something that could be done in the home.

It was really for women. It took hundreds and hundreds of years for – it was really once men went, oh, you can make money off of this. As ever. and hundreds of years for it was really once men got went oh you can make money off of this once beer reached the point where it was able to be exported and didn't spoil quickly that's when men were like oh maybe we should take over but up until then it was a hundred percent it was literally the only industry that was a hundred percent women owned and operated because it was something that you could do in the home you didn't need specialized equipment you didn't need specialized training you could do it with kids around. I like the job title, Alewife.

Yes. That sounds great. I want that on a business card. It doesn't mean that you're married to beer. I mean, but you could be if you wanted to. But that's what it was. I mean, if you think about really where the roots of alcohol are, it's a community thing. It's something that is in the home. It has to do with food in the kitchen, all these things that are very traditionally feminine. Before I bring Melissa into this, and Melissa and I have talked before about, you know, culture of beer now, but just staying in the history and the historical times, a question that I feel I definitely only want to ask, or would love

to ask on Woman's Hour, and I'm going to, is what's the link between witches and alewives, Mallory? I mean, they're one in the same. Really, what happened was, because this was the only trade that women controlled, of course, men were a little concerned about it, because they had, when the alewives had a lot of power in the community, it was the only avenue that women in medieval times had to financial independence. So, of course, we've got to be very suspicious of that. And if you look, the most tradespeople that are depicted as evil in medieval art are alewives. They were very suspicious of women having independence and power in the community. So art started depicting women as evil.

And alewives. Some of them had tall pointy hats so they would stand out at the market. They had bubbling cauldrons of beer. They had black cats around to keep bugs out of the grain. All of these things that you dress up on Halloween as a witch started out as the uniform of an alewife. A message here that you'll like immediately, Melissa. Morning, Emma. If I ever hear the word, shall we go for a girly drink or a glass of fizz?

I want to gag. Give me an IPA any day of the week. The advertising of alcohol to the sexes is weird to me. I know you know an enormous amount about beer and about it is the culture of it now. Perhaps we'll get to that. But why did it have the culture of it now perhaps we'll get to that but but why did it have the way that advertising began like this why did we get this uh with this rich history do you think unfortunately we have to blame marketing um and really wanting share of pocket so particularly

when um men were the major breadwinners the idea of going for a couple of pints after you after you'd finished a very hard day's work was part and parcel of your rights as the person who was working out and working hard, sort of up-pit, down-mill kind of attitude, was that actually why would you advertise to women when they would possibly be only going out to the pub or purchasing beer maybe once a week? So it wasn't that we would be seen as enough of a drinker yeah and then of course it was it was well it's just about money isn't it who can

who's gonna who's gonna buy the most beer it's the blokes so therefore at that point beer being the most popular drink of course alcoholic drink in the world um the actually everybody started scrambling for share and And as businesses became bigger, as businesses became more international conglomerates, actually what they did was they went, right, OK, let's aim for the men. And that really became the moment where a lot of women became disenfranchised from beer because it was definitely, they were told it wasn't a drink for them. So there will have been that moment, really?

Yeah, pretty much the late 60s early 70s yeah and has it righted itself if you were to view it like that no the ship really hasn't righted itself still there's still very much there are still women who feel that a pint of beer is unfeminine who i know who are incredibly broad-minded incredibly independent in every other walk of life but still just go, I still feel I'm feminine carrying a pint of beer. And it's like, well, okay, sometimes if you're a very petite person, and that goes for blokes as well as women, a pint of beer does sometimes look a little bit sort of out of kilter, but this isn't the case with most people now. And it is just that

horrible, horrible, if you'll pardon the pun, hangover of that marketing. And I think the other thing as well is that here's a hangover we haven't got rid of, that Judith M. Bennett, when she was writing about medieval brewing, found out that on the odd occasion where men would go to market to sell the beer that was made by the women, they would sell it for roughly more that equates to the gender pay gap still today. Hundreds of years old. Hundreds of years old. Hundreds of years old and still this nonsense is happening.

Well, we won't drink to that. Maybe you drink to forget that. And of course, I should say drink responsibly if you do drink. Mallory, for cocktails, tell me about how that came out in your book in terms of your research and the marketing towards women. Oh, I mean, well, it wasn't until Sex and the City. I mean, we joke about it, but it really wasn't until then that cocktails were marketed towards women.

They were a manly thing. Men drink whiskey. And it wasn't, there were no, I mean, martinis even were for businessmen. And it wasn't until the 90s where there was finally someone on, some female on TV drinking a cocktail. Really? That late? That late, yeah. I mean, think about it. The only prominent woman up until Carrie Bradshaw was Julia Child drinking wine on TV. There just wasn't any sort of cultural template for women to

drink cocktails. Nobody was calling James Bond a girly for drinking vodka martini. I mean, shake and not said. That, shake is not a third. That's the controversial bit there. But nobody said, oh, you know, we're a bit worried about his masculinity. Too many olives, too many olives. No, I'm a big whiskey fan and it still does sometimes get a response

from women and men. You know, that's just a drink I enjoy. And I remember even being asked by a drinks brand to go on a trip because it was novel that I might know about whiskey and might want to know a bit more. And about taking up space, Mallory, like where you actually drink. What did you find out about that, about, you know, women drinking in public as well? Oh, well, that's really the thing is even in places where they're OK with women drinking, women must be drinking at home.

They can't drink in public. We don't want people to see women drinking. But the funny thing is, I mean, the bar itself was invented here in London for female customers. The perception that a lot of people have about women drinking is so at odds with the actual history of women's contributions to drinking culture, to drinking technology, innovations. It's absolutely staggering. Really? So it was invented for women, what, so they could be out of the home to have their drink? Yeah, it was during the 1700s, the gin craze. Because at that point in time, taverns were really a thing.

Beer was, at that point, still a very masculine drink. But gin was brand new, and dram shops where gin was being served, there was no masculine tradition there. It was a new place, and this was around the same time that there was a massive influx of single, young, childless women in London who were working. So all of a sudden, you had this huge population of women who had jobs and were out of the home all the time, but they didn't have time to sit around in a tavern like the men did. So to cater to those female factory workers, housewives, maids, just women workers, a lot of

the dram shops started putting in a long wooden counter. I'm gonna have to leave it there. I love the story. Mallory, Melissa, thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.