Woman's Hour - Saoirse Ronan, Nikki Doucet on women’s football, JoJo, Vaccinations

Episode Date: September 18, 2024

Four-time Oscar nominee Saoirse Ronan broke into Hollywood at 13 years old with her performance as Briony Tallis in Atonement. She has also appeared as Jo March in Little Women, as the lead actress in Brooklyn and won a Golden Globe for her performance in Lady Bird. She joins Clare McDonnell to discuss her latest role in the film The Outrun in which she plays Rona, a young woman struggling with addiction.Nikki Doucet has been called the most powerful person in English women’s football. She is the newly appointed CEO of the Women’s Professional Leagues Ltd which took over leadership of the two top tiers of women's football from the Football Association this summer. Nikki and her team have big plans to revolutionise the women's game and she joins Clare to tell her about them. The number of children who are fully vaccinated for MMR - measles, mumps and rubella - has fallen to the lowest level in 14 years. According to NHS figures, this year 91.9% of children aged five received one dose of the MMR vaccine and only 83.9% have had two doses. To reach herd immunity – the point where diseases stop spreading - at least 95% per cent of children need to be immunised. Clare discusses the issues with Carly Danesh-Jones, a parent who previously held vaccine hesitancy views and changed her mind, and Dr Vanessa Saliba, a UK Health and Security Agency consultant epidemiologist.It’s been 20 years since the singer, songwriter and actor Joanna Levesque - or JoJo - signed her first record deal at the age of just 12 years old and shot to the top of the pop-and-R&B charts. Her cool-girl appearance and upbeat music with hits such as Leave (Get Out) to Baby It's You earned her millions of fans across the world. She joins Clare to discuss her memoir Over The Influence which delves into the challenges she faced, from her parent’s addiction problems, through to her own struggles growing up in the limelight. Presenter: by Clare McDonnell Produced by Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Clare Macdonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour with me, Clare Macdonald. Great to have your company. We have an absolutely stellar line-up of guests for you today. An actress who has been astonishing audiences with her talent ever since her big screen debut at the age of just 13. That role garnered her an Oscar nomination. She is Saoirse Ronan. She's now

a four-time Oscar nominee. She joins us to talk about her latest role as Rona in the film The Outrun, a young woman in the grip of alcoholism. It's incredibly powerful. Delighted to say we're also joined this morning by the most powerful woman in English women's football, Nicky Doucette, the new chief executive of Women's Professional League, the top two leagues of women's football in England. She has big plans for the women's games, which she describes as being a bit like a start-up when you compare it to the 100-year head start the men's game has had. Also today, the number of children fully vaccinated for MMR by the age of five has

fallen to its lowest level in 14 years, which means herd immunity has not been reached and the risk of infection amongst preschool and school-aged children has risen. We will hear from one mother who says she used to be vaccine hesitant, but has now had a radical change of views. Love to hear from you today. Has your position on vaccinating your children changed? And if so, why? You can text the programme, the number you need, 84844.

Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media. We are at BBC Women's Hour and you can email us through the website or you can send us a WhatsApp message or voice note. This is the number you need 03700 100 444. Also today, another major child star for you today. This time in music, singer Jojo signed her first record deal at just 12 years old. She shot to the top of the charts, became a star of film and TV. So far, so stellar. But it was a journey underscored by addiction and her own struggles with hitting the big time so young.

It's all tied up in her new memoir. Jojo is going to be joining me live from New York. All of that on the way. But let's start here. I think what you'd call a very powerful woman has just joined me in the Woman's Hour studio. Indeed, she's been called the most powerful person in English women's football.

I'm talking about Nicky Doucette, the newly appointed chief executive of the Women's Professional League, the company now running the top two women's leagues in the country. The responsibility, which was previously held by the Football Association, was transferred to Nikki and her team just a few weeks ago. Now, the top tier of the female game, the Women's Super League,

kicks off this weekend. You will be aware that the interest in women's football has skyrocketed in the last couple of years, particularly after the Lionesses lifted that Euros trophy. But challenges, of course, still remain. How do you create a league that is competitive, future-proof, whilst not simply copying the men? Nicky Doucette's job is to meet those challenges.

Delighted to say Nicky joins me now. Hello. Hi. Big build-up there. Yeah, huge. For a big job. It's been just over a month now. You've officially had control of the top two leagues.

How are you finding the job? Yeah, it's incredible. It's such an exciting opportunity and I'm thrilled to be a part of it. So talk us through what you're actually responsible for. So we are responsible for the Women's Super League and the Women's Championship. So like you said, the top two leagues in this country. Right. And it's a big job because you've come in with an idea to shake things up, to get people to completely rethink the word football. Why?

I think we're guided by a bigger purpose here. A purpose that is to leverage the power of women's football to inspire a more equitable society. And I think that starts with, it has started with our athletes. You know, you look at what the Lionesses have done and who they are. You know, they win the Euros and the first thing they want to do is influence government to try and make to make sport more accessible and give girls equal access to sport in schools. I mean,

they're so inspiring. So when we think about the word football, we want it to mean women's football as well. We want it to mean something for everybody. I think the unconscious bias we have today, when you think of what game did you watch on the weekend? Or did you see Chelsea versus Arsenal? You automatically think men's football because that's the legacy and that's the history. I think qualifying it provides an equitable opportunity to grow. Since you've been working in the women's game, have you noticed that? Have you noticed people dropping in?

Did you see Chelsea? Did you see Arsenal and they are meaning the men's team but they're not specifically saying the men's team yeah I think we've seen that um but I also think you're starting to see the shift across all sports and helping to qualify look at what rugby's done when you look at six nations it's the men's six nations and the women's Six Nations. I think we have opportunities. I see the FA starting to say the men's FA Cup and now the women's FA Cup. I think qualifying it allows it for the conversations that we're having to mean that it could have equal value. Whether or not it does in the future is up to the market. When we look at the top tier of women's football in this country, the Women's Super League,

12 clubs in the Women's Super League are Premier League clubs. They're affiliated to the men's team. And there's a feeling that without that affiliation, I mean, clearly that is driving success. How does that need to change? Because surely it's a corner of the market

that is driven by finances, not necessarily skill, passion and commitment. Do you need to change because surely it's a corner of the market that is driven by finances not necessarily skill passion and commitment do you need to kind of have a divorce in some sense is that even possible i think we need investment in the women's game today and i think the clubs that are currently in our both our leagues are investing um i think you see um you know we have an independent few independent clubs in the Women's Championship. There's investment coming in there. I think the top clubs in the Women's Super League are equally investing.

And I think it's our role to continue to show the future investment opportunity to encourage more investment. Because women's football is not going anywhere. You know, what we saw off the back of the Euros is not just a bump. It's a sustained growth. When you look at our growth metrics over the last three, four years, everything is up. And so to me, that is what feels really exciting. And we have to continue more investment. I mean, I've been to quite a few WSL games.

Excuse me. And often it's referred to as the men's stadium. This is what's changed in the last couple of years since the Euros in this country, that you'll have the elite women's team playing in the men's stadium. Does that, the way we describe that, does that need to change as well? Because I guess what you're talking about is two elite teams. One happens to be male, one happens to be female. And where they play, is that important? I think it is important. I think when we think about what we need to do

over the next decade, or where we are today, how we start to continue to grow our leagues. And ultimately, what we're trying to do is make this the very best version of women's football globally. And if we do that, that will drive value. And ultimately, what that means, we're creating a distinct brand of football for her. And how we articulate that how that comes to life will be an evolution. We need exciting football, the fans want to watch the best athletes in the world, they want to watch exciting football, they want games of consequence, all of that matters. And then to me, there's the entertainment part of it. And what I mean by that is ultimately the storytelling.

The fans are telling us they want more content. They want to be able to interact with the clubs, with the fans, with the league even more. And I think if we do that properly, we're creating the emotional connection with the fan base that ultimately will drive long-term success. I mean, the skill is there without doubt, but it does all, it seems in a lot of cases, come back to investment. Let's talk about, for example, Reading FC women's team. They were the top flight. They were relegated from the WSL. And now they've had to pull out from the lower league of the women's championship, the one below, which obviously you oversee as well, citing rising financial costs. They have a rich history as a women's team. They can't keep up with the costs. Is that a concern to you?

And does it worry you that a women's team kind of has to go because the finances aren't there, whereas the men's team is, you know, there's no question about it continuing. Yeah, I mean, I spoke to a couple of parents who had girls in the academy at Reading and, you know, that situation I think was heartbreaking. And I think everyone who was involved in that situation from a league perspective, from an FA perspective, you know, at the club itself, I think worked really hard to try and figure out what the right situation and outcome was for that. So I think being a professional football club that gives the players the right infrastructure around them is expensive. And there's a cost to that.

And I think the reason why I keep using the language, we are a startup, we're at the very beginning of this journey as a professional league. And as a professional company, I mean, we've been incorporated only for a few weeks. You know, I have people starting on my team who are on day eight, you know, and so we're at the beginning of this journey. And I think when you think about it from a startup and an investment perspective, there is an investment ahead of revenue. There's a cost to putting on the competition that is world class for both the players, the clubs, the managers, the referees, you know, all of the stakeholders that are involved within that, so that the fans are

having an incredible experience. And so I think it's important that we find the investors, the clubs, everyone who has signed up to the Women's Super League, to the Women's Championship, understand the stage of the journey that we're in today. And it's our job to continue to show the growth metrics. You know, as the executive on this growth journey, our job is to maximize the value at each point along the way. And the market will ultimately dictate what we can maximize at each stage of the journey. Yeah, listen, I want to talk about a little bit more about you, Nikki, personally. I mean, you started your career as an investment banker,

pretty much a male environment, I'm guessing. You went on to be a director at Nike. And this is, again, another kind of much more diverse role, isn't it? You have an all-female senior leadership team. I understand that was a coincidence. What do you think is different? What do women bring to that role as a leader as opposed to men?

Yeah, our leadership team was a coincidence. I believe in a diverse team. So I think having diversity of thought is really important. I think some of the differences, I want to be a great leader, whether I'm a female great leader, I hope to just be a great leader, and that I continue to evolve and what that needs and what the needs of the business are, and what the needs of the team are, and that I'm providing the right type of leadership for us all to be able to grow and to enjoy the work experience.

I think everyone's on just such a massive treadmill of life today. Everyone you talk to is so busy. Everyone's time poor. I think, you know, becoming a mother, I think, changed me a little bit in terms of leadership and just you have less time to do everything. So, you know, maximizing that, ruthlessly prioritizing, and I think just having, you know, more understanding about what everybody's going through. And, you know, I have very high expectations.

I know what, for myself, what doing a good job looks like and I think trying to maybe just be a bit more kind at times and not driving perfection always. Yeah and how do you think that change in attitude because you're talking about as you said women's football in this country feels like a startup compared to a hundred years of the men's game how do you think that change in attitude will help develop the women's game here in the way that you're leading it being a woman understanding women's lives you know how will that affect not only the women playing the sport but not just the women coming to watch women's football, the families that come to watch women's football? How do you want to improve that experience? I think it's I think it is a great experience today in many parts of it.

There's obviously things that we need to improve. Part of it is listening, knowing what the fans want, knowing what the players want, how we need to continue to evolve to grow our fan base. Just continuing to listen. It is interesting, isn't it? Because we're talking about diversity. How important is it for you to have diversity? At the top flight of women's football last year, Arsenal women did come under scrutiny for a team photo that featured all white female players. It's a team that play in, you know, what is a very multicultural part of the capital. And that stands out, actually, in contrast to the men's team.

How much are you going to be encouraging teams to diversify and look for talent across the board? Yeah, again, as part of the talent pathway, I think, and going back to the concept of equitable opportunities for girls to play sport from the very beginning, everybody has to have the opportunity to have access to sport in schools, first and foremost. I think grassroots football, I think the talent pathway, making it more accessible, especially if you, if girls or families may not necessarily have the financial means that,

that the middle class or upper middle class families might have. I think all of that is really important that ultimately allows for a more diverse talent pool coming through, and then having the capabilities and, and talent to play, you know, at the top level of sport. Um, so I think it starts in the very beginning. Um, I know that the FA is working through a lot of different, um, opportunities around how to continue to attract as many girls as possible to want to play, um, and enabling, I think, I think, their access to the right coaching, the right leagues, everything to play in. And then when you get to the top, ultimately,

every team is going to want to have the best players. Yeah. And we need to have a diverse talent pool so that the teams are able to pick who the best players are. And we've covered this before that many players have dropped off because, as you say, you get good at football, but then you still need the parent who has a car to take you to the training, to take you to the matches at the weekend. And that's where people think football is a sort of access all areas. It crosses all social divides. It often doesn't, does it? Sometimes.

And, you know, we all know a lot of what the challenges are. Again, we need more investment in the game. Historically, you know, women's sport globally has been underinvested. Historically, obviously, women's football in this country has had underinvestment. And so I think, you know, the inspiration of what the Lionesses have done, of, you know, the, the FA, all the clubs, the stakeholders that have invested to date, we're at a really exciting point in time of this transformational journey that we're going on. More investment coming in means there's more access means there's more access points for everybody who wants to play.

And making sure that the tip of the pyramid, that the WSL and the championship are seen as successful and aspirational and inspirational for young girls, if that is working really well, there's going to be more people that want to be a part of it. We often also talk, when we talk about women's sport and football in particular, about how essentially, because literally the sport has been on the back foot for so long, that women get a lot more injuries because they're wearing footwear that's been designed for the male foot. There's a lot more research now, but there had been historically little research into the menstrual cycle and how it affects sporting performance. And of course, all of this kind of factors into the long term success of the game, but also sports science courses across the country

about who takes them, what they study on those courses. What are you looking to do in that area? Or is that beyond your reach? Well, when you look at sports science for elite female athletes, I think there's only been something like 6% of all sports science has been specifically on female athletes. And I just think that's such a massive opportunity that we have. So our team and a lot of the clubs are already starting to invest in more specific sports science research for the elite athletes. And I see that as actually one of the most important benefits of the success of our league long term. If you have sports signs for her and how to get female athletes back to peak performance, whether that's, you know, whether they're coming back from having a baby, or they're trying to, you know, plan for one, or whatever that looks like, or from any type of injury,

having that now then go into the universities for courses, if you're becoming a physiotherapist, and then you're working on the high street, and then you and I have access to better healthcare long term, which, you know, selfishly, I want that I still am recovering from having a baby, you know, I would have loved to and I go to my high street and different physios. And I, I don't have the right program for me to then come back from how to how do I, how do I strengthen my pelvic floor better? How do I I didn't have access to some of that in the way that I think needs to be more mainstream for the broader female public. And I just think, you know, healthier females long term creates a healthier society, which is a more positive impact, you know, on for all of us, I just think it will disproportionately influence in a massively positive way. Yes. And you're right, that is still seen as something that's quite niche, when almost 50% of the population will need that kind of advice at some point. It's been fascinating having you in here, Nikki. I hope we have you back in the Woman's Hour studio sooner than five years

time. But let's imagine you're joining me in five years time. What would you like to have achieved? Well, again, we're going on this transformational journey, and I hope I come back in five years because this has been fantastic. I hope you see that we have sold out stadiums, that we have greater reach, that we have more visibility on TV and in print and in digital, that the best players in the world see this, that there's no doubt that this is where they have to play to be seen and to be heard as being the best footballer in the world, that our clubs are continuing to invest, but also seeing their asset values going up as part of their women's team. And I want to see the infrastructure around the female athletes and them being seen as role models in broader society. I'd like to see our managers be seen as significant leaders in broader society. I'd like to see our managers be seen as, you know, significant leaders in broader society. All of that, I think, is massively achievable. It's been absolutely wonderful meeting you. So excited for you in this job

and the future of the women's game. Under your watchful gaze, Nikki Doucette, thank you so much for coming into Women's Hour. Thank you for having me. Nikki Doucette, the newly appointed chief executive of the Women's Professional League, excuse me, here in England. I do apologise. I've got such a tickle in my throat today. Hopefully that is gone. That's it gone once and for all. Nikki, great to have you in the studio.

Now, I mentioned this earlier, the number of children who are fully vaccinated for MMR, which is measles, mumps and rubella, has fallen to the lowest level in 14 years. According to NHS figures this year, 91.9% of children aged five received one dose of the MMR vaccine and only 83.9% have had two doses. Now to reach herd immunity, the point where diseases stop spreading, at least 95% of children need to be immunised. And it's not just MMR, the uptake of all main vaccines has fallen. So what is causing this drop off? Let's talk to Carly Dinesh-Jones, a parent who previously held vaccine hesitancy views and has changed her mind. We're also joined by Dr Vanessa Salabab, a UK health and security agency consultant epidemiologist. Welcome to both of you. Good morning. Good morning. Carly, let's maybe start with you and your reasons for being hesitant about the MMR vaccine? I know you don't hold

them anymore, but what was driving that? So I was a very young mother. In fact, I had my first child in 1998. Coincidentally, the same year that the Andrew Wakefield Lancet paper, which incorrectly linked the MMR to autism, was published and then obviously has been debunked since. I didn't know then as a young mother that I actually was autistic. I refused to vaccinate one of my now adult daughters. And ironically, one was was vaccinated with the MMR and was diagnosed as autistic, just like me when they were about six years of age. And then I thought, well, there must be something in this then.

You know, and it was also the creation, if you like, of social media being very active at that point, which became a bit of a petri dish for misinformation. And I was very naive, trying to find answers in all the wrong places unreliable sources so with my youngest who's now 16 I decided no I'm not going to give them the MMR they of course were diagnosed as autistic anyway at just two years of age which I promptly then thought well oh that was a bit of a very dangerous and silly mistake and experiment on on my child's behalf and they were promptly diagnosed um and vaccinated uh with their MMR after their autism diagnosis. So although I work in lots of different places raising, you know, the advantageous traits of being autistic, it's more of a personal mission for me.

I don't want anyone else to make the same mistakes. We've obviously got my daughter now is 26. And there are many people of her age that aren't vaccinated with the MMR becoming parents themselves, perhaps working as teachers or in nurseries and it's going to be a problem not just for our generation of children but for our grandchildren as well if we don't get a hold of it. Let's bring in Dr Vanessa Saliba now um i mean maybe that's a kind of familiar story you've heard but what is the what is the kind of fallout from this with with vaccination rates dropping okay so um hi everyone so you write that we are concerned about the fall in vaccine uptake as you

say we've seen a year-on-year decline i need to stress that it's it's routine across all of the childhood vaccination so it's not specific to any particular vaccine and obviously we've been looking at the drivers what what are the key things that are driving that fall in uptake and our view is that most of that is to do with access so what we need to do is to make it easier for parents to access vaccination remember what what their child is what vaccines that you the child is due when parents uh i'm a mom too i have two small kids they're five and eight and they've just started school and there's so many things flying in through the door asking me permission slips for this and that and it's really hard to keep on talking we know that there are competing priorities and vaccination may not

be top of mind for many parents particularly because well in many ways vaccination is the victim of its own success because most most parents actually do go on and vaccinate, although we see that we've seen a fall in uptake in recent years, over 90% of parents have gone on to vaccinate automatically. Okay. But as you say, it's really important that we reach up to 95%. We want to reach every single child because we want to protect them from infections that can be very serious. And it makes me as a mum and a doctor feel really upset that a child can end up in hospital suffering from something that is completely preventable. So I would say most parents vaccinate automatically. We know that we have we do surveys with parents every year to monitor changing attitudes to vaccination to pick up any concerns and then be able to address them um and actually confidence

in vaccination programs is extremely high right so i just i just wanted to pick up on that then so you say it's down because we were hearing there from carly who went off and did her own research and and it's changed her view entirely but you and lots of people say well people read stuff on social media and it's not the best place to get informed you're saying it's not that that's not the reason this has dropped off it's to do with people not what access what do you mean by access so what I think is that it's very complex and there's lots of different things driving this. So a big part of it is around making sure that parents are aware what vaccines their children are due and when. So for example earlier this year the NHS launched a new immunisation strategy which talks to these factors

and how they're meant to be addressed. So doing things like using the NHS app, making it easier for parents to book vaccinations and sending reminders to parents. So we've been doing some of that earlier this year. So, for example, just to give you a bit of context of what happens when vaccine update goes down, measles is one of the things we really worry about because it's spread so easily. It's extremely infectious. So it's the first infection to come back. Some of the other diseases like diphtheria, pol maybe we haven't seen in many many years and parents don't see it's a clear and present danger but measles is back we've had this year 2,500 cases of measles most of those

children under the age of 10 who have unfortunately missed out on the routine vaccinations. Many of them will have ended up in their GP, practice, A&E, and ended up in hospital. Some of them have complications like ear infection, chest infection, encephalitis, which is an inflammation of the brain. Those can have lifelong consequences for that child. It's completely preventable through the vaccination. And for me, it's a real shame. And what we're doing, apart from what I've talked about, so the NHS focusing on improving access, we know that parents want to receive their vaccine through primary care, so through their GP practice. If any parent listening is not sure what their child's had, I would say pick up your red book. That's where all your vaccine that your children have had is recorded.

Check. If you're not sure, pick up the phone and call your GP practice. They will find the records and they can get you booked in. You can catch up for all your vaccines for free on the NHS. And it doesn't matter how old your child is now. You can catch up now. So I would urge all parents to do that. OK, I just want to go back to Carly briefly. We don't have much time. Carly, how do you think health bodies can help parents, some who might be fearful, some who might not know where to go to get their worries answered? What do you think needs to change, Carly?

Well, I think there needs to be a lot more reassurance, Claire, for those that are and also for people to come forward and feel, well, I don't know if I feel sure about this and for time to be made for people to have that reassurance with their health practitioner. And particularly in those cases of wondering what, you know, I've heard all these stories, who do I go to? When I decided that's it, I'm not going to give, for our example the MMR to mine I wasn't challenged at all in fact the receptionist said to me don't blame you um and there wasn't any challenge there wasn't an offer of would you like to speak to somebody about your concerns um it was just okay then um and that was obviously a long time ago and I hope things have moved on since I don't have any young children but uh but yes I was quite uh I was pleased by that because that to me confirms my wrong beliefs if you know the

receptionist is telling me that's absolutely fine don't blame you it would have been nice perhaps in hindsight for someone to go that must be really worrying for you would you like to come in have a have a chat with one of us um about that and and i might have seen differently but i think there needs to be a lot more reassurance and absolutely no judgment um because i think everyone's trying to do the best things for their children. But of course, it isn't just about our children. It's about everybody else's child and also grandchildren, the next generations. Great to have you on the programme.

Thank you both so much for joining me. Carly Dinesh-Jones there, a parent who previously held vaccine hesitancy views, has changed her mind since we've heard. And Dr. Vanessa Saliba, UK Health and Security Agency consultant epidemiologist. Do get in touch with the program with your views on this. 84844 is the text number.

And of course, anything else you hear here on Woman's Hour this morning. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Now, let's talk to the woman sitting opposite me.

Four-time Oscar nominee Saoirse Ronan. Ronan broke into Hollywood at the age of just 13 with her performance as Briony Tallis in Atonement. She's also appeared as Jo March in Little Women as a lead actress in Brooklyn, of course, and she won a Golden Globe for her performance in Lady Bird. She made her Broadway debut in the Tony-nominated revival of Arthur Miller's The Crucible. And on the UK stage, she's made her debut as Lady Macbeth at London's Almeida Theatre to rave reviews. She's now starring in the quite exceptional film, The Outrun, in which she plays Rona, a young woman grappling with addiction. Delighted to say, Saoirse Ronan joins us now live in the Women's Hour studio. Great to have you here.

Thank you for having me. It's an incredible story. And it's such a brutally honest performance. What drew you to this part? So initially it was the book. It was Amy Liptroth's writing. This is a story that is based on her life and her journey to and through recovery from an alcohol addiction. Home and the Orkney Islands plays such a huge part in that. And I'm a lover of Scotland and anything rural and wild and natural. So all of those elements were probably the things that made me most interested initially but I think also from a performance perspective being able to play someone who's at times their judgment completely lapses and there's a sort of

this blurred gray area where anything can happen when you're under the influence it means that there's sort of nothing that's off the table for me as an actor. So it meant that I could do things that I had never really done with any performance I had given before. It is quite something. And as you say, it's Amy Lipthropp's memoir, and she was there with you. How much of a responsibility did you feel? Was that useful having her there? Or I mean, to have a real life person that you're portraying on screen at their lowest ebb I guess comes with a huge responsibility. A huge responsibility and I always felt that

and I think Amy was aware of that as well so she was also very respectful for our process for mine and Nora as the director that you know we needed our own time and our own space to help this story evolve into its film version. So she kept her distance when she needed to

and she felt like I needed that as well. But I think I felt a huge responsibility to her, her story and also just anyone who is in recovery. It's something that I haven't been through myself, but I have watched people that I love go through it, some of whom are not in recovery and unfortunately are still kind of in denial about the illness and how it affects them. And that's an incredibly painful, confusing experience experience to have especially when you're young

and there can be a lot of resentment that can come out of that which is what I had experienced and I think to be able to do that story justice for family and friends who are affected by this and also you know the addict themselves I just really wanted to try and give it as honest a portrayal of someone going through that as I could. So I always had that in the back of my mind. That was definitely the motivation for sure. You certainly do that. We're going to play a little clip now.

This is Rona with her partner, Danon, played by Papa Esidu. Danon, I'm so sorry. Whatever I did, I'm so sorry. Whatever I did, I'm not drinking anymore. I'm sorry. I'm so tired of hearing you say that. I can't hear you say that again.

What do you mean? I don't even recognise you anymore. I wish you were a completely different person. Don't say that. I can't do this. What do you mean you can't do this? I just can't do this. Did I do that to you?

Shh. I'll never do that again, right? Whatever I did, I'll never do that again right whatever I did I'll never do it again I'm never going to drink again I promise you right because I don't want to lose you I don't want to lose you I love you I mean I felt as a viewer watching Rona her spiral is like kind of watching a slow motion drowning and you heard it there she pushes everything away in her life to make way for the alcohol

her relationships her work her family you mentioned that you've been touched by this you've seen it in your own life and now you've played this character with the real life woman sat there talking you through it

because you feel exasperated watching her and you feel angry. And then you feel this incredible sympathy for someone who's in the grip of this illness. Having gone through all of this now, do you understand alcoholism better? Or is it impossible to? I think it's both.

Yes, I understand the stages that someone goes through better than I did. I have more of an insight into it in a way that I probably didn't want to have before. I'm more open to understanding that experience now. But of course, I can't ever really empathize with it in the way that one addict can to another, one person in recovery can to another. I think there's something that really bonds them together because also, especially no matter how you choose to recover, whether like with drink whether that's

AA or rehab or you just go cold turkey or whatever there is such a humility that comes out of that experience especially when you go through rehab which Rona's character does where you're doing therapy you know a couple of times a day in groups on your own. You're having to face every single aspect of your personality, your history, how you bad that it's sort of like if you don't laugh, you'll cry. working with those people, those people that we have in the rehab group are in recovery themselves. They informed that performance more than anybody else and seeing how they were able to laugh at themselves, at the situation, the ego is completely eliminated from that experience

because it has to be. You kind of have to go back to zero. And so having all of that insight now, of course, is just something that has added to me as a person, but I'll never fully understand unless I go through something like that myself.

It's so interesting, isn't it? Because there's so much shame attached to this. And then you see those people, as you say, it's absolutely fascinating to know that they were all addicts in those scenes. And you think, well,

you're the strongest people on the planet because you got up and faced another day. That's what I said to them. I said that, like, you have an insight into human nature that none of us have. Even when it comes to filmmakers who make movies all the time about the human experience, they have this insight that's so deep and so raw and so honest that I think everyone else walking around who is slightly in denial about the fact that we're all slightly addicted to something probably and you'll kind of I think especially when you're in the city like we are right now I find that I become a bit desensitized to everything I become disconnected to everything around me because I just find it

the older I'm getting I find it quite overwhelming to be in this environment and to be around people who are so in touch with that I'm sure sometimes it's incredibly overwhelming for them but it's it's very inspiring to be around that. What I loved also is is the way that the dialogue is kept loose. It's improvised in parts, a script written in indirect speech. And sometimes when you're watching it, you think, I feel like I'm watching a docudrama here. This feels so naturalistic, which is so unusual. And you used locals, didn't you? We did. We used locals.

We, as I said, we used people who have been in recovery for years, some of whom have only been in recovery for a few months. Everyone was encouraged to bring their own life experience to this movie. And that was part of Nora Fingishite, our director's vision for the piece was that because she comes from the documentary world, she always wanted it to feel like we were really stepping into this world and that there wasn't anything enhanced or heightened, but we were showing this experience as it really is, because that's interesting enough and that is valuable enough. And so, yeah, when we go, obviously we have this stage where it's really horrific for Rona but then also there's the aftermath where healing starts to take place and she starts to immerse

herself back into a community that she ran away from a very long time ago that she didn't really want to be a part of and so I was working with people who grew up with Amy Liptrot who went to school with her who served her tea in the local cafe who worked on her dad's farm we we shot on the farm that she grew up in um which is an incredible place and that's where the name the Outrun comes from because it's inspired by the sort of outfield where they would put the sheep, which is right by the sea, like on a cliff. So we were so immersed in that world. And it was a great experience for me as an actor, a really interesting exercise in how to almost sort of edit

and rewrite a scene through your performance as you're doing it. Because I was working with people who were either novice actors or people who had never even thought about doing it before like farmers who had never been on camera before and so sort of working with them to get what we needed from them while also delivering my performance was like this whole other layer of acting that I'd never really had to think about before. It was absolutely brilliant. It really is. You can't see the join. It just feels so naturalistic. And I think what's interesting because you get Rhoda's backstory, the difficult childhood she had, her father's sort of initially undiagnosed bipolar disorder.

And then you see, obviously, you think, aha, this is this kind of turbulence in her earlier life possibly put her on this path but you see the relationship between rona and her mother superbly played by saskia reeves and how the trauma in their lives set these two women off on different paths one turns to god the other turns to the bottle but at the end there's no judgment how important was that to have as a message to say bad things happen in life people take different paths it's incredibly important because it's not the hollywood version of real life but yet it's far more interesting i think it's it's um honoring everyone's own journey it's honoring life as an experience which to me what I take

away from the movie when I watch it as an audience member is that life consists of so many waves and there will be there will be momentary highs but there will be a lot of lows and there will be a lot of kind of middle of the roads and you're going to just have to sort of ride that and hold out for those moments of joy because they don't come along very often and when you do and when you get to share that especially with someone that you're close to who you didn't who you felt kind of disconnected from for a while which I think happens to a lot of parents and children at that point in their life it's so precious and I think happens to a lot of parents and children at that point in their life. It's so precious. And I think we really wanted to celebrate those very brief moments of connecting with someone that you love.

Is it important for art to do that, do you think, more and more these days? Just as you say, life's a roller coaster. And if you watch mainstream cinema often, everything's tied up in a neat bow. This film doesn't do that. It doesn't do that. And yes, I do think it's very important. I don't know if it's because I'm just getting older

and I'm becoming more aware of how complex life can be if you let it be. But it does feel like, particularly right now, the world is in a very kind of chaotic place a lot of the time. But there are still beautiful moments to be had. There's still moments of peace that you can find and quiet, whether that's on your own, whether that's in the ocean with a bunch of seals whether that's with your mother who you haven't had a relationship with in a long time that's what we're living for and I think that's what we yeah we wanted to remind people of when they watch this movie because there's I hope that

there's going to be a lot of people who will come to see this who maybe have felt a little bit lost regardless of how big or small that might feel to others on the outside. And I just want them to see that, oh, we can find these moments of solitude and yet togetherness anywhere. Yeah. And just final question. You go to the remote island, Pape. Your character works for the RSPB.

Are you a twitcher now? Do you like looking for birds? I don't. Right. And you seem to in the movie, you just started this interview saying you love the outdoors. So you're a great actress because when you go into the very cold water in the movie, it doesn't look like you're enjoying it at all.

But that's the kind of thing you enjoy. I love it. And just to say no disrespect to birds. There's just other animals I want to give my time to more. But I will say that like from working with the RSPB a little bit, the passion they have for it is like it does rub off on you a little bit, but I would just prefer to hang out with the seals but um what was the question you love open water swimming I love open water swimming yes and yeah I've always done it I grew up right beside this river in Ireland called the River Slaney so I learned to swim in like freezing cold mountain water so I was I was always exposed to that and when cold water swimming became a thing over the last few years I was just just always like, isn't that just swimming? Yes, it is. So, yes, that required the most acting for me in those scenes.

You do it brilliantly. Thank you. It's a brilliant film. Thank you so much for dropping by. Thank you. Saoirse Rona there. And you can watch The Outrun. It is in cinemas now.

Thank you so much for dropping by. Thank you. Now, let's talk to another big name, singer-songwriter and actor, Joanna Levesque, or Joju, signed her first record deal at just 12 years old and shot to the top of the pop and R&B charts in the mid-2000s.

Her cool girl appearance and upbeat music with hits such as Leave, Get Out, To Baby It's You, earned her millions of fans across the world. Let's have a listen to some of those tracks. Throughout her teens, Joanna also starred in films, appeared on national TV and continued to make music. But then it all came to a halt. Now age 33, she has written a memoir over the influence, which delves into the challenges she faced from her parents' addiction

problems through her own struggles growing up in the limelight. Delighted to say Joanna joins me live from New York. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for getting up so early. No, thank you for having me. It's a brilliant memoir. Why did you decide to write it now? It's 20 years since I started my career as a recording artist.

And that's just a crazy thing to say at 33. I put out my first single when I was 13. And I think that in writing this book, it was an opportunity for me to make sense of some things that were so chaotic in my life, in my experience. And I wanted to share the things that I've learned and the just interesting experiences that I've had through starting so young and having this longevity and just the wide variety of things that I've seen in the 20 years and before with kind of my upbringing. I think that just me even being here still defies the odds. Well, it's interesting because we were just talking to Saoirse Ronan about the character she's portraying who is an addict it's it's amazing and obviously this is something

that touched your childhood both your parents were addicts and met at AA they met at AA yeah and similar to what she was saying I mean I have such respect for people that admit that they have a problem and that they, you know, want to seek help and community and fellowship. And that's what my parents were both seeking at the time. And then they did the 13th step, quote unquote, as they call it, and they fell in love and ended up having me. And, you know, they both are self-proclaimed addicts they were in and out of the program and their sobriety didn't didn't last but that was a foundation of of my experience was kind of growing up in the halls of AA being there in meetings while they were there and kind of hearing that type of lingo like the serenity prayer is probably one of the first prayers I ever learned. Wow I mean in the midst all of that in the book you say but they

did their best your mum especially because she eventually leaves your dad and becomes a single parent but you went to libraries you had a hamster you've had a rescue dog yeah and I guess now when you look back you think how do you view your parents to think wow all of that was going on and yet they pushed through and they gave me this normality in the best way they could absolutely I mean I think when we're younger we tend to think of our parents as they're supposed to be perfect they have all the answers and now as an adult I'm able to see that they're people before they they were parents with their own traumas and things that they were trying to work through. And I think both of them did the absolute best job

they could. I'm so grateful for them. I have so much love for my parents. And particularly when I think about my mom, who was my manager, and I started out so young, I just cannot imagine how scary that would be as a single parent, someone who had their own things that they were dealing with and trying to overcome and, you know, trying to maintain a sense of like not letting her child's ego get too inflated as everybody's telling them yes. And how great they are when fame starts to, you know,

when fame was introduced at a young age so I think she's unbelievable when I think about it in retrospect yeah and you say in the book you became the breadwinner the family breadwinner at 14 15 um you had your own issues with alcohol but it's I mean it's quite incomprehensible to see how somebody could not hit that level of success and not be affected in some way with the benefit of hindsight now looking back on what you went through how do you judge yourself on how you navigated it I through putting pen to paper and and being able to see it all in black and white for the first

time I have a lot more compassion and empathy for my younger self than I did. I think I was pretty hard on myself before that. And, you know, at 18, I had to file a lawsuit for my record company because I no longer had the rights to my voice. I couldn't release music anymore. I felt like my career completely came to a standstill. And there were things going on where in my family life, I just felt like I was really on shaky ground. So I coped with that in the way that I saw around me. And I'm grateful to be on the other side of it.

But there was just so many conflicting opinions about what I should value. And I just, I didn't know where to turn. So I tried to numb myself. And that is, I can look back and be like, completely understanding of why I wanted to get outside of my reality, because I was so afraid, so afraid of, you know, what is next. You survived it, which is incredible. Tragically, your dad died in when you were in your 20s. And I guess when you grow up with an addict, there's always that fear hanging over you. When it eventually happened, how did you process that? That's the thing. You nailed it on the head. I think that I always in the back of my mind didn't expect that my dad would be around to meet potential grandchildren one day or things like that.

I think I just knew that he wasn't going to be around forever. So I was on tour. I just released some music. And when the call came in, it doesn't make it any less devastating. But I think there, and I shared this in the book, I don't know how else to say it, but when you've been worried about someone your whole life, there's that sense of devastation and disbelief, and also a little bit of a weight that is no longer there because the inevitable, the worst thing that you've always feared has now happened. You know what I mean? Um, so absolutely devastating. And I always wished that I could save him. And something that, you know, I worked

through in therapy is that the only person that you can save and be responsible for is yourself. And that definitely set me on a path of saying I'm no better or worse than either of my parents. I think I used to feel kind of self-righteous, like I'll never be like that. But it was very much in me, a part of me. And losing my dad made me take a look at how do I want to live my life and be responsible for this one body and this one experience that I have. You're a survivor and you are doing Moulin Rouge on Broadway. You have your comeback this year to do it again. How does it feel then?

Sorry, we don't have much time left, but I wanted to get you to comment on this. Going into this whole new genre and still being in the industry, still being in demand all these years later. Sorry, how does it feel? Moulin Rouge, yeah, to sort of be playing that part again

and to still be taking kind of center stage you are a survivor in this industry. I don't take it for granted it's I there was definitely a time where I thought that I would never have the opportunity or the exhilaration to to feel so alive again like But this is one of the times of my life. And it's just, I think about reclaiming the narrative, feeling more empowered and not letting circumstances or a victim mindset kind of overtake everything so that's i'm grateful for this this moment right now it's been fantastic talking to you thank you so much for joining us thank you

so much for getting up early in new york as well uh joanna levesque or jojo and her autobiography is out now and just to let you know uh that the film we were talking about with Saoirse Ronan just a short while ago, The Outrun, is out on the 27th. Tomorrow on Woman's Hour, join Anita. She'll be hearing more from our reporter, Madeleine Abbott, about breast implant illness, including the first clinic in Europe dedicating to treating it, plus the comedian Lucy Beaumont. Woman's Hour tomorrow from 10. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

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