Woman's Hour - Sarah Beeny, Rebekah Staton, Spanish football kiss update, Deborah Bonello on Narcas

Episode Date: August 29, 2023

The TV presenter Sarah Beeny has spent much of her life in the unpredictable world of property renovation. You'll find her in programmes such as Help! My House is Falling Down and Sarah Beeny’s New Life in the Country. Her latest book, The Simple Life - How I found Home, is about the many homes she's lived in and her latest move to a former dairy farm in Somerset. While she was writing it she was diagnosed with breast cancer. Sarah joins Nuala McGovern.Nuala speaks to actor Rebekah Staton, who stars in the new BBC drama The Following Events Are Based on a Pack of Lies. It follows two women who have nothing in common - except conman and celebrated so-called ecopreneur Rob. Staton plays Alice Newman, who had been trying to move on from Rob’s schemes that left her family penniless and his subsequent disappearance - until she sees him one day by chance.The Spanish Football Federation's regional leaders have called on their president, Luis Rubiales, to resign. He faces widespread criticism for kissing footballer Jenni Hermoso on the lips at the World Cup ceremony in Sydney just over a week ago. Hermoso has said the kiss was not consensual. Now his mother has gone on hunger strike in protest against the treatment of her son. Nuala speaks to Semra Hunter, Spanish football journalist.VICE Journalist Deborah Bonello has written about the hidden power women wield in Latin American drug cartels for her first book, Narcas. It is the first in-depth exploration of these women. She joins Nuala to discuss.And the next in our series Women on Wheels - where we hear women speak about the cars that mean or meant a lot to them. Today, we hear from listener Rachel. Her choice of a Morris Minor bemused her friends and family but the adventures she had in it still make her smile.00:00 OPENER 01:54 JENNI HERMOSO 13:57 SARAH BEENY 29:14 LAS NARCAS 41:58 WOMEN ON WHEELS 46:41 REBEKAH STATON

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. I hope you had a good bank holiday weekend. Well, as you've been hearing, their Monday ended with Spanish Football Federation regional leaders calling on their president, Luis Rubiales, to immediately resign after he kissed player Jenny Hermoso when Spain won the Women's World Cup final. Now, this puts the Federation on the same page as the Spanish government. The deputy prime minister, Yolanda Diaz, she said Mr Rubiales acted with sexual aggression. Mr

Rubiales' mother instead has locked herself in a church and gone on hunger strike, saying it's an inhuman and bloody hunt that they are doing to her son. She says it's something he doesn't deserve. Some agree with her. But where do you stand a week on? What stands out for you about this story? You can text the programme. The number is 84844.

On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can send us an email through our website. For WhatsApp or a voice note, that number is 03700100444. Well, I spent some of my weekend reading The Simple Life, How I Found Home. It's written by the property expert, TV presenter, entrepreneur, that is Sarah Beeney. And Sarah is a force of nature. I'm looking forward to speaking to her about how she does it all and also about the concept of home.

What does it take to make one? You might have caught our programme yesterday. It was on lists. Sarah's to-do list could actually have its own programme, I think. We'll be catching up this hour. We also have the actor Rebecca Staten who is starring in a new drama. The following events are based on a pack of lies. Quite the title for this dark,

funny, unpredictable thriller. And we'll also hear about the women at the top of the drug cartels in Latin America. That will be with the help of Deborah Bonello, who has written the book Narcos. And we continue our series, Women on Wheels. Today, a beloved Morris Minor takes centre stage. But let me turn back to that story, of course, coming from Spain. Let me reiterate that the Spanish Football Federation's regional leaders have called on their president, Luis Rubiales, to resign. And it is over the widespread criticism for kissing Spanish footballer, Jenny Hermosa, on the lips at the World Cup final ceremony in Sydney

just over a week ago. He has been provisionally suspended by the football world governing body, FIFA. Now, Ms. Hermosa said the kiss was not consensual. Protests have taken to the streets for him to go, but his mother, as I mentioned, has gone on hunger strike in protest against the treatment of her son. The England lioness, as I mentioned, has gone on hunger strike in protest against the treatment of her son.

The England lioness Ella Toon spoke to my colleagues just a short while ago on the Today programme and gave this view. Yeah, it's definitely overshadowed everything that we went through, the whole tournament itself, the success of the Spanish team and that they've just won a World Cup and yet something like that is overshadowing it and being talked about a lot more. Something that shouldn't be happening in any aspect of life or in the women's game. Yeah, it's not the best.

And us as Lionesses have put out a statement and stand by Hermoso and the Spanish team and we hope that the right thing is done. And the right thing would be him to go? Yeah. That was Ella Toon, England footballer, speaking to my colleague Simon Jack.

Well, Semra Hunter is a football journalist and presenter joining me today from Barcelona. Semra, it doesn't seem to have calmed down any. The regional leaders of Spain's Football Federation are calling on him to resign. How significant is that, do you think? It'll be interesting to see because I think at this point in time, we're not really so sure as of yet. I think it's really important to reiterate that the Federation cannot actually remove him from his post at this point in time because they have

passed the buck over to the administrative court. So it's now in the government's hand to investigate, to look at the evidence, which they met yesterday, by the way, and they have asked for more evidence to be put forward before they make a decision. It will be down to them to determine whether they want to suspend him, whether they want to ban him, or if they just don't want to do anything and leave him in his post, which quite frankly doesn't seem tenable at this point. It does seem as though he will go, but it's now down to these two options. Either the government will push him out or he will finally cede defeat and say, okay, everyone has turned their back on me. People in power, people of importance. So I have

no other choice but to do the right thing at this point and step down. I think here in Spain, we're waiting to see what his reaction is to all of this. Well, that was going to be my question, Samra. Has he said anything? His very defiant, I will not resign, was publicised widely. But has anything come from him or the people close to him? I'll get to his mother in a minute, but from him directly? No, from him directly, it's silence at this point in time. The only one speaking out is his mother. So if you want, we can definitely go to that. And I know you laugh, but I imagine there are probably people that support her too, because she has gone on hunger strike in her local church, as I understand, locking herself inside. What has been the reaction

to that particular aspect? I mean, I laugh because if you just look at this, it seems so bizarre and strange. And I think that's kind of the attitude in Spain in general. People are really shocked that it's gone to this extreme. But if you put yourself in her place, you can understand the extreme duress that she must be under. Because if you flip the script here and you look at it from the point of view of a mother, she sees her son who has become public enemy number one. She sees her son being attacked by everyone, not just in Spain, but the entire world. So of course she's going to be under an incredible amount of stress and anxiety. Whether this is an extreme reaction or not, I suppose that's down to everyone's personal

opinion. But for those of us here in Spain, it is an extreme reaction to this, especially the way that she has barricaded herself inside the local church. It's been reported that she yesterday was in severe duress. She was crying a lot and she was speaking out to Jenny Hermoso, begging her to tell the truth, because, of course, she doesn't believe the players' version of events. And she has said, as you pointed out, the fact that she considers this an inhumane witch hunt against her son. And she's asking for justice to be done on his behalf. And she refuses to stand down until that happens. And what about the fact, Samra, like putting this in a Spanish context, that she has decided to do it within a religious

establishment, the church? Well, she's said to be an extremely religious woman. So I can only imagine that she's calling upon her faith to intervene, to have her prayers answered. And she probably feels as though a church is the best place to do this because it is such a place of worship and importance to her particular religion, of course. So I imagine that she feels as though she can connect with the higher powers and try and have her prayers answered by some way or degree. And that's why she has chosen this particular location, because she is said to be extremely devout in her faith and her religion.

And are her community supporting her? It would seem that way, yes. I mean, I don't know if the entire community is behind her or not, but as of yesterday, there were reportedly 100 people who came to her aid who came to support her and I think it's worth reminding people that her husband Rubialis's father was a former mayor of the town of Motril which is where he's from so of course they have friends of course their family they have people who will be looking at this in terms of their point of view and of course we'll stand by them. So

there is no surprise in that sense that people have turned up to show their support and let her know that she's not alone in this. You know, an awful lot of comments coming in, Semra, as I speak to you. Let me read some of them to you and to our listeners. Such a, Susan first, so a team of fabulous, talented women worked their socks off to achieve a marvellous victory and raise the profile of women's football and it's all spoiled by the actions of a man who believes he's entitled to do whatever he wants. Another, personally

I think this incident would never have escalated to the point it has if he'd simply apologised sincerely in the first place and vowed to change his ways, which I hear involve crotch grabbing and other unpleasant displays of macho behaviour. He's brought it on himself.

Another from Ray. It was wrong for him to kiss her, but the clip I saw, if it wasn't consensual, why did she put her arms around him and not push him away? Your response to any of that, Semra? I agree with the first two.

Obviously, we'll never really know what would have happened had he actually apologized in the moment maybe it would have been an opportunity for him to sweep this under the rug and play it down and act like no big deal no harm no foul but he really did himself a disservice because this is a man who so many people who've worked with him who've known closely people like Javier Tebas who's the president of La Liga, have been so outspoken in speaking against for years and members of Spanish media, talking about all the kinds of sordid deals, sorry, sordid scandals and controversies that he's been caught up with. And so many people have said he should have been gone a long time ago. He

never should have even been in the position in the first place. But in some ways, people are kind of happy that this has all been exposed. The deeper layers to all of this have now been exposed, the lid has come off, and now we can actually have a proper debate about all of this. The last comment, if you could just remind me what it was, there was something I did want to say about that. Sorry, go ahead, Samara. What did you want to say about that sorry go ahead Samara what did you want to say about that the last sorry that the last the last comment that you had read out yes there was something I did want to say about that okay he would that that was Ray and he was saying if it wasn't consensual why didn't she push him away well of course there's all kinds of theories I

mean first of all it happened so quickly that maybe she didn't have even a chance to react. And maybe she was processing this. And I mean, obviously, I don't want to put words in her mouth. And I don't want to try and defend him in this particular case, because I mean, she has come out and said it wasn't consensual. So who am I to not believe her. But women who have been in these kinds of situations before where they have been harassed or sexually assaulted, they have spoken about an instance where sometimes they freeze because they don't know how to react, because of processing what's actually happening in the moment. And like I said, it happened in a blink of an eye. It's almost as though she probably didn't really know what was going on. But also, if you look at the way he grabbed her, he grabbed her head with so much force. There really wasn't much she could do. There really wasn't much she could have done.

And Semra, I do have that comment actually coming in from Rebecca saying about the kiss. It's the way Ruby Ellis was using his hands is significant. Holding the footballer's head in that way is controlling. It looks as though she had no chance to move her head away. I do have lots on the other side as well. This is absolutely ludicrous. New Year's Eve, we kiss lots of people on the lips, most of whom we've never met, but it's been caught up in the moment. At midnight, does this now have to stop? And another, women are such sensitive wimps nowadays. Get over it and move on.

I'm 70 years old and a woman, I'm 70 years old, doesn't say she's a woman. I'm 70 years old and women were stronger than reacting to a ridiculous kiss back in the 70s and 80s. But I do want to turn to that bigger question before I let you go anywhere, Samra, is, you know, is this Spain's Me Too moment? It is, and at least I think it has to be. And I think that's why context is so very important here. This is not just about the kiss, and I can't stress that enough. This is an example of a repeated pattern of behavior by people such as Ruby Alice and members of the Federation who have regularly, systematically been abusing these women for many, many, many years. They have been putting forward official complaints to the courts, to the correct authorities to have an investigation looked into this. But they've always been overlooked.

They've never been properly supported. And quite frankly, I think there's a lot of people just didn't care enough to really do anything about it. Which is why this was a catalyst for this whole Me Too movement idea here in Spain. Because people were saying, right, enough is enough. That is the last straw. This is abuse hidden in plain sight. It happens every single day, not just in football, but here in society. And it's time that we actually do something about it,

that there is action taken, because it is an issue. There is sexism. There is misogyny. That is a prevalent part of Spanish society. And I'm not trying to say everyone does it but environment much does exist and so it has opened up this massive debate around equality of women's rights around sexual abuse and sexual violence what is accepted what isn't what is considered to be sexual abuse what isn't and where do we draw the lines and it's it's really been fascinating to

see the way that this whole thing has unfolded, because everyone has something to say about it. And by and large, everyone is in the corner of Jania Mosso. They are showing her, their support, they defend her, and they feel as though this is really a moment that we do have to use, unfortunate as it is, to exact meaningful change across the boards. Let's see what happens. Katie in touch saying they should have a whole clear out of the Spanish Football Federation, saying they supported Rubiales, actively attacked Hermoso for over a week.

Anyway, and also going on to other issues within the Spanish football. We'll speak to you again, Samara. Samara Hunter, thank you so much for starting us off today on a woman's hour. But I'm going to move on next to the TV presenter, Sarah Beeney. Now, she has spent much of her life

in the unpredictable world of property renovation. You'll find her in programmes such as Help! My House is Falling Down, Double Your House for Half the Money, Restoration Nightmare and Sarah Beattie's New Life in the Country. Her latest book The Simple Life, How I Found Home is about the many homes she has lived in and also about her latest move to a former dairy farm in Somerset. While she was writing it she was diagnosed with breast cancer as you may know. Well Sarah is with us for Woman's Hour today. Welcome, Sarah. Wonderful to have you. Hello. Hi. Very nice to be here. Thanks very much.

Now, you've called your book The Simple Life, as I mentioned. You know, simple, four kids, huge property business, restoring different homes, full TV career. Is that title tongue-in-cheek? It is a little bit. Well, it was sort of in search of that, but I know it is a bit, yes. It's a bit ironic because it's what I'd like to have, but it's not what I've got. Although I wonder, we'll come to where you're landing up at the moment, but let's go back. Why do you think you have been so consumed with that idea of home? I thought about it a lot after I read your book. I was like, is home a feeling? Does it have to be a place? Yeah, you know, I think I think I'm obsessed by it because I I genuinely think that we all need home. And then I'm kind of obsessed with what home is,

as in, is it about the walls or is it about the people inside? And I guess, I think over my life, I felt, I feel quite deeply the sense of home and homesickness I felt quite strongly, actually, many times in my life. And I think when you feel homesickness, I'm kind of like, well, what is homesickness and what does it mean and what is it that draws us all together? Fundamentally, we all have one thing in common, really, I think, and that's we need food and water and shelter and people.

We don't need people around who love us, but it's quite nice if you do have them. I just have to let listeners know, in case they're not aware, you love having people around. Yours, as I read about it, is not shy about being surrounded by many families, you know, dozens of children,

add in a few dogs, cats and chickens. What is it about that atmosphere that you describe so well in the book that you gravitate towards? Why is that, do you think? I don't know, to me, it feels more like home. But I also I wonder sometimes whether it's it's because really deep down inside, I'm probably a terrible control freak. And the antidote to that, like it'd leave me alone on my own. And people would come in the door and I'd say, don't you put your shoes there.

You put them three centimetres to the left where they belong, the blue shoes and the red one goes over there. But I would be a terrible control freak. So I think I've been saved by other people. I've been saved by having chaotic children and family. And I also think there's something, I don't know quite which comes first, but I think I found big chaotic families very welcoming. And I don't know if you've ever noticed this,

but if you go to a house where they've got sort of four or five children, another four or five children isn't a big deal. If you go to a house where they've got one child, I've got four children. So we don't get invited to people's houses who have one child because it's chaos. Whereas we're often invited to people who have four or five, six children. They're like, oh, another six makes no difference. Yeah, come on in. Yeah, we just stick some more tomatoes in the bolognese and make it go further. It's fine. So I quite like that. And you remind me of my mother has said like after the third, having children, it's all the same.

They say after three, it's like running a zoo. And no better woman to do it, I think, after reading your book as well. But I do want to tell our listeners, in case they're not aware, that your mother died of breast cancer when you were 10 and she was just 39. Because I feel I felt this was a thread running through your book, Sarah, for me. And you wrote really beautifully that she died peacefully in her parents' bed shortly after you had been reading to her. And then just after you turned 50, you had a diagnosis of breast cancer yourself. I think in some ways you felt you were kind of waiting for 40 years nearly for that diagnosis, from what I understood. And then it happened.

But I did read that you were seeing it as a blip with every intention of rubbing it out. Do you think that's possible? Yeah. Yeah, I do, actually. Only because I'm really, really fortunate with the diagnosis that I had. And I live in the UK now. And there's the NHS and all the amazing things.

Yeah, I think it has overshadowed my life before more than it does now, weirdly, because the fear, I suppose, I mean, I made a documentary during my treatment, but largely because I realised slowly that the fear of breast cancer is largely based on something that happened. You know, as my second son said, I said, oh, were you terrified when I was diagnosed? he said well I was really terrified but then I thought about it and I thought the word cancer I only associate with your mum who died and another dear friend of ours who also died and he said then when I was thinking about it almost everyone you

know's had cancer and I went yeah and he said now they're better. We never talk about it. And I thought that's the truth of it, actually. It is terribly tragic in some situations. But, well, the earlier the diagnosis, the better the outcome. And the outcomes, not always. And that's terribly, terribly, terribly sad. But compared to 40 years ago, the outcomes are considerably better than they were. I did watch your documentary that you made for Channel 4, feeling that maybe I got to know you a little bit through that as well as reading your book. But I was struck by the fact that you were prepared to go through that treatment,

which is at times gruelling, although worth it, of course. But why you decided to do that and also, and this goes for other programmes perhaps as well, but bring your family along with that as well and put them in the public eye at such a difficult time. I felt really it was really important, actually. Well, first of all, I did think twice about doing the documentary at all but I made it with only two two really good friends so Angie and Johnny and I the three of us made it together so I wouldn't have done it if it was with people I'd never met before um but I wanted well three reasons one is I wanted people to not be scared because I met people along the way who who found

who worried that they found lamps but they were too scared to go to the doctor so they didn't go. And I thought, gosh, if there's one person who goes to the doctor because they found a lump, then that's worth it. But I wanted them, I did ask them, I did say, do you want to do it or not? But I feel really strongly that breast cancer is seen as something that happens to 50-year-old women largely, but doesn't because if you're lucky enough to have anyone who loves you they go through it too and I really wanted to make that really clear that this is you know you're not on your own

you're everyone else goes through it too and everybody has to go through it and and they had a choice you know not to do it or to do do it. But I think the message that this is something that you go through together with all the people who love you, if you're fortunate enough to have them, I just think it's an unspoken thing that people don't talk about. And I wanted to blow it out of the water. And the fact that you mustn't be scared because diagnosis is, and treatment is better than it was. And blow it out of the water you did, Sarah, do with many things which I'll get to in a moment

but just before I move on from breast cancer you prefer not to talk about being all clear from cancer because language can be important you would rather say that you've reached the end of treatment do you want to explain that a little? Yeah I I mean, to be honest, it first happened when I went on a show and they said, oh, gosh, you've got the all clear. And I was like, ooh, well, that doesn't sound right. Because you don't really. They just kind of go, right, your treatment's finished, and off you go, come back if you think you have cancer.

And you're like, ooh, I'm not a doctor. I don't know. Anyway, so it is a little bit. Actually, anyone who's had breast cancer, I think when I said that, they all went, that's so true. That's so true. So anyone in my boat understands exactly what it means.

But, you know, ultimately, we're all going to die of something. And nobody knows we're clear of anything. It's just, so to say you're clear of something, I can't, that's just not true. It's just that, you know, you don't, no one's all clear. You know, anyone is not clear. There isn't anybody out there who's all clear, definitely. So it didn't, I don't know, it probably sounds the same for everyone else,

but it didn't sound the same to me. I understand. No, no, I think these conversations about the language that we use on parts of our lives like this is important. So that's why I wanted to hear from you on that. And I also want to hear from you on this. That's from your book. The one really stupid thing that I knew I did was buying Rise Hall and I knew it at the time. 40,000 square feet, 97 rooms and 32 bedrooms. What possessed you Sarah? I was dead

into it actually. We were dead into it that's probably the truth. We were quite, so Graham and I met when we were really young, we were 18 and 19 and we had a property development company and a property investment company when we were within about probably about four months of meeting. I was quite a property development company and a property investment company when we were within about four months of meeting. I was quite a grown up child.

And looking back on it, probably not so grown up as I thought I was. But anyway, so we were in our late 20s and we'd spent our 20s buying property and sites and things. And you used to get these auction catalogs in those days, which is sort of early Internet. But you'd get them posted and they were like glossy brochures of what's coming up in an auction. And then one day there was this enormous stately home and its guide was like practically nothing. And we were like, should we just go on? We call them jollies.

So we would go and look at this property. We went and looked at this property. So it was my brother who was in business with us and Graham and I, and we went and looked around this property. And I mean, if who was in business with us and Graham and I, and we went and looked around this property. And I mean, if you're going to look around something the size of the House, in the size of the House of Parliament in a field that you could technically afford to buy, I mean, you've got to be very unromantic to not think, oh.

I mean, admittedly, a lot of it was missing, that building. But anyway, it sort of set off a chain reaction and we ended up buying Rice Hall. That's sort of roughly it And hotted for 20 years with all the parties and people that went through it

it's a fascinating part of English history really that that house now has had and it continues to move on but in 2019

you did move to a 220 acre former dairy farm in Somerset. The Channel 4 series, Sarah Beeney's New Life in the Country does document its restoration. You know, you talk about wanting a simpler life. Is that farm part of it? Well, it kind of was because Rice Hall was amazing and wonderful. And it was a building at risk. And it was listed grade two star.

But then we turned it into a wedding venue. So we had a wedding venue that was really successful. But it was four and a half hours from where we lived in South London. And then we had a camping field as well, which we had in Somerset. And my brother, who lived nearest in London, he'd moved to Somerset and so we were sort of spread out and then we had property businesses that were all over the place basically I spent a lot of time traveling and I thought actually um putting everything into one place and so our move to Somerset was like right okay we're only going to do it if we sell everything else and then we are based in one place, lock, stock and barrel.

And so it was a simple, I call it a major decluttering process. It was quite a lot of decluttering. You know, I was breaking out in hives as I was reading about some of the stuff. But you are the person who will be able to declutter it, if anybody. But I do want to move to a couple of aspects. You do have four boys, Billy, Charlie, Raffy and Laurie, that of course feature heavily as well. But I was interested to read that you always wanted to be a boy, which is one aspect I'm interested in. And also you have some pretty strong views on raising boys.

You wrote that someone once told you that girls trash your head and boys trash your house. Do you still stand by that? A little bit, yes. I mean, it's a grotesque generalisation, isn't it? Because everything is a generalisation and you have to accept that everyone doesn't fit into it. But as a bit of a rule, I mean, honestly, I bet if I had four daughters, I'd say I only wanted daughters. They're perfect. I mean, how awful I bet if I had four daughters, I'd say I only wanted daughters. They're perfect. I mean, how awful to have a son. But I happen to have sons, so I'm a bit biased. But I think in a way they're simpler because they do smash the house.

But they don't sort of hold grudges as much as some girls, but some girls don't. I think it's horses, of course. I think I'm very lucky to have um four sons who really like each other they have a band with their dad and that's the entitled sons the entitled sons yes the song out on friday another one um so and they're having an amazing time and and i and i kind of think i'm very i feel deeply privileged to have a family around me who like each other. But I'm not sure that it's because they're boys.

You colour your past. I edit my life because it's the way it's turned out. Do you know what I mean? Are you, Sarah Beany, as my final question, finally slowing down? No, of course not. No, definitely not. But I kind of think I might. I mean, I do. I do grow lettuces. That's my nod.

Yes, she potters in the greenhouse now, but the greenhouse is the latest project, which along with tea are one of her favourite things and her Roberts radio as well. So I hear. So you're a great guest to have on Woman's Hour. And thank you so much for spending some time with us. Sarah Beeney, her new book is called The Simple Life, slightly tongue in cheek, I think. It's been a pleasure to speak to you. Thanks so much for coming in. Thank you. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Say much. Now, Annie, of what you've heard, what's your stupidest decision that you made, or maybe you stand by it? Girls versus boys, sons versus daughters. Text 84844. Lots coming in.

Of course, unrubiales keep them coming as well. I want to move on. Maybe you've heard of Pablo Escobar. Maybe you've heard of Joaquim El Chapo Guzman, two of the most ruthless drug lords in the world. But what about the drug ladies, as they're sometimes called, or las narcas? Well, Vice Journalist Deborah Bonello has written about the hidden power that they wield in Latin American drug cartels for her first book. It's called Narcas, and it's the first in-depth exploration of these women. She joined me in the studio on a rare trip to London, and I began by asking her why we don't know much about these women.

Well, it's my belief that our understanding of the world is very much defined by narrative. And I think narrative is also defined by who is telling the story. And I think that's as much the case in journalism as anything else. And I think because organized crime is such a dark world and it's so difficult to document and it's quite intimidating, I think the coverage has been dominated by men over the last 100 years. And I think the way that organized crime has been covered has been, you know, with the sort of assumption that the man is the powerhouse. Violence has been kind of the main lens with which we look at organized crime and the mafia. And I think that's just defined sort of our understanding of the drug trade. And I think drug traffickers are by

definition male, you know, everything from Pablo Escobar to El Chapo and John Gotti and the Untouchables and, you know, all these kind of legendary male narratives. And so the women we see generally are either, you know, the babes, so Emma Coronel, El Chapo's young and glamorous, infinitely more glamorous wife than he is a very high profile figure. Or we see, you know, the kind of the monstrosities, the killers with the golden guns and the Instagram profiles and the big boobs and the big butt and, you know, those kind of outliers, if you like. But there's sort of nothing in between. But what about you? Because if you talk about the narrative,

you are creating this narrative as a woman. What attracts you to it? Well, I arrived in Mexico just under 20 years ago when the drug war had begun. Drug war, I say in quotation marks. But that was when the government set the military against the country's cartels. So the drug trade and violence related to the drug trade was always a part of my daily beat. I became very aware of how largely I was surrounded by men when I was covering organized crime. A lot of those men who have written great books and created great stories, a lot of them admitted, you know, there were very few women in their stories. And if they were, they were, you know, the wives, the girlfriends. And it just

seemed really strange to me that that should be the case when you were seeing sort of, you know, the elevation of women in all sorts of other legal spheres where men had once dominated. And, you know, it was also personal. I just felt a little bit like women were being underestimated and condescended to, you know, this idea that they're not capable of committing certain crimes, or even thinking certain thoughts, perhaps. And, you know, personal experiences of my own, where I would work with men, and I would ask questions, and the answers would be directed to the men in the group, not to me. You know, some of the reporting I did when I was pregnant in Mexico, and I was met with a lot of disapproval from the men around me.

Oh, you're not going to walk up that hill like that. You're not going to go to that crime scene like that, as if it wasn't really my place. Yeah, really interesting. You start off the book with Digna Valle, the matriarch, as she's called. Tell us a little bit about her. Yeah, I kind of got fascinated by her. She came onto my radar. And at the time, the DEA was doing a really big crackdown on the drug cartels in Honduras, which, you know, has since imploded and is now officially considered a failed state or

was a narco state at that time. Her family controlled the flow of cocaine coming up from Colombia on its way to the United States and worked with the Honduran government. It's now for the US courts to decide, but the then Honduran president has now been indicted and extradited to the US to face drug trafficking charges. And he was aiding and abetting Dignivaya's cartel. So she was arrested in 2013 on a trip to Miami. And after she was taken into custody, they subsequently brought down her entire clan. And so when she came across my path, she had been released into immigration detention. As a foreigner who's been convicted of a felony in the US, you're automatically up for deportation. She was fighting that. And of course, if she did get sent back to Honduras, she would have faced some challenges of her own, you know,

because the government there had seen what she'd been doing in the US, how she'd been cooperating with prosecutors. You went to her hometown of El Espiritu. This is fascinating, the whole story of going there. My heart was beating fast as I was reading how you recount the tale of what happened. I'd asked her for an interview a couple of times. She'd said no. So I figured, oh, I'll go to her Pueblito, her little town, and speak to the people who knew her. Before I went, I befriended the local bishop because the drug trade does generally have a good relationship with the Catholic Church in Latin America. And I knew that Dignan had contributed to building this huge Catholic church in the middle of her town.

You know, it's the kind of town that as soon as you roll in, they know you're there. So I knew I had to be very conscious of that and like maintain an appearance, a non-threatening appearance. And so when we got there, all the people that the bishop knew were women. And they took us to a house of her quote unquote friend, which happened to be her next door neighbor. And so when we did get onto the subject of Dignor, one of the women sort of came out from the back of the house and said, Oh, I have, I have Dignor here on video phone. Would you like to speak to her? And I was like, yes, because I did. But weren't you scared? I mean, this is the thing. Like she obviously knows you're there.

She sees what you look like. You see what she looks like. You're surrounded by her. I don't know whether they're her dearest, but they're definitely her nearest. And there you are. I think that was the point of the phone call was, we're letting her know you're here, asking around about her. And she was very loved in that town, and particularly by that group of women. And when the lady came through with the phone, I did look back at the team I was with, I was with a local reporter as well as a former Honduran police officer who'd sort of come along as protection of sorts and they both looked pretty anxious I think it's fair to say because I think the thing about women like

the ones in my book is even though most of them are now out of circulation in terms of their criminal connections. They still have those relationships and that history. But you did speak to Digno. I did speak to Digno. And the conversation was? We were talking about how she was doing in the US. She seemed pretty discombobulated at the time that we spoke, kind of slowed down. But she was very proud of the Catholic Church in El Espirito, which she had helped

furnish and build. She wanted to get one of the women to open it up and go show me around. I'm not sure she realised when we spoke that I was the pesky journo who'd asked her for an interview twice. And that might have been good for me. But how do you reconcile that danger that you're putting yourself in? I actually didn't expect that to happen, honestly. I mean, I think in field reporting, there's always an element of unpredictability. I knew she wasn't in El Espirito when I went to El Espirito. And she had been arrested, I think, eight years earlier. So it wasn't fresh. So I knew that even though she would have maintained relationships, her arrest had happened a long time ago, the dust had settled.

But that is just one of the women. Because I think our listeners might be curious with these various women that you've spoken to that are high up the ladder when it comes to trafficking. I mean, are female drug traffickers any any different male drug traffickers in their behavior? Not especially. I think I've seen that women when they understand that the use of violence is fundamental to their business, and especially the protection of their families. And it's important to state that most organized crime in the world, but especially in Latin America and countries like Italy, is family based. So when women get involved in the world, but especially in Latin America and countries like Italy, is family-based.

So when women get involved in the business, they nearly always bring their children in. And then, you know, that kind of lioness factor is super dominant, you know, protecting their business and protecting any threat to their business, and that includes members of their family. The other thing to remember is

I think women are very capable of violence, but a lot of violence and organized crime is outsourced. So they're not commonly pulling the trigger themselves. They're getting people to do it for them. And I think in that sense, there's no difference. Because some of what she has been accused of and others that you profile in the book is horrendous. And it is a lot of violence against young women, for example. I was in an event for the book and people were asking me, is there a sisterhood? You know, is there sort of a feminist element to this? And I would say my hunch is no, it's tempting to want to see it like that. And there is something in the narrative, my narrative, at least that's taking this focus as kind of an

exercise in making those voices heard. But is there a sisterhood or an element of loyalty towards women or to protect other women? I didn't find that. And I think the majority of the women I was speaking to were coming from socioeconomic backgrounds with low levels of education and weren't sort of really tapped into that vein of thinking, I think. I think it was more of motivation that came from economic survival. You know, in the places where Dignar and Sebastiana and other women grew up, there was no social mobility or work opportunities. You know, for them, it was like contraband. That's what they and their families had worked in for a long time. But there is evidence of female drug traffickers going back as early as the 1900s.

I mean, that really surprised me. Yeah, I mean, Elaine Carey, she's a historian. She's written a book about female drug traffickers. And the women she documents start as early as the 1930s which is basically when the narcotics trade across the US Mexico border was born and it's extraordinary that these women are so unknown and I think this is why I go back to my theory about the male gaze and how the narrative has kind of been controlled by men over the last 100 years. Because those women have always existed and we've always known about them. And yet they're not part of this mainstream narrative.

I wonder, though, when I was reading the book, I was thinking, yes, they're keeping a low profile. But maybe that just means that they're better at being a drug trafficker than others. I mean, you really don't want to be front and centre, name known and photograph known. No, you're absolutely right. Fame is bad for business. I think women understand that. But I also think everyone's different. You know, I think some women are sort of smart and understand the value to being low profile. But like Marixa Lemus, who was one of the women I met in Guatemala, she controlled one of the sort of important parts of the border where cocaine crosses from El Salvador into Guatemala on its way to the US. She loved the sort of bravado and the reputation that came with the

levels of violence that she was accused of. And there was a local governor who was a guy who was petrified of her. And she loved that. I got into a Guatemalan prison to interview her. And when I told her that the local mayor was terrified of the prospect of her getting out, she was delighted at that. You know, much as men and women's motivations differ, I found it really hard to sort of pigeonhole women,

which I think is kind of the point of like trying to dismantle gender tropes and stereotypes. I think as soon as we try to identify trends, there are always exceptions to those too. Deborah Bonello there, her book Narcos, The Rise of Women in Latin America's Cartels is out now. Let's turn to women on wheels, women on the cars that mean or meant a lot to them. Today, Rachel's choice of a Morris Minor bemused her friends and her family. But the adventures she had in it still make her smile. So why that particular car? I just passed my test when I was 27 I always wanted to have a Morris Minor and lots of people were trying to put me off saying I'm a bit unreliable and I worked with lots of people

in their 50s and 60s and they said oh you don't want one of those. And I researched it and I quite like the history of it. I just thought, I just want one. I had a strong sense of individuality about it and I love the shape. So I just went to a garage on my way home one day and just said, can you get me a Morris Minor to this man? And he found one for me within a couple of weeks and I called it Mavis. I was just about to ask, did the car have a name? Because I had a feeling it would.

So Mavis, what was Mavis like? What did she look like? Oh, well, she was pale blue, four-door saloon. The webbing had gone in the seats. So when my mum got in it once she sort of sunk down I think I named her really after um Mavis Riley from Coronation Street that was the Mavis that was coming to my mind because her hair kind of had a tint of blue yes yes quietly enthusiastic about things that's that's what I thought about her but anyway I wanted to get it to Somerset to show my parents when I first had it.

So I drove down and I broke down on the M4 quite late at night on a Friday night. And then a police car came up, sort of took me to their car and sort of looked after me. Then they drove it to the police station and called the AA. So they were all looking under the bonnet and trying to just find out what was wrong with it. It was just a small electrical thing. But they were so kind and they gave me a cup of tea and a piece of cake. And that was like in 1997 or something. And then they escorted me home to my parents. And my mum looked out the window and saw the police car and me. She thought, what's been going on?

But doesn't your whole experience with Mavis, with the breakdown, kind of sound like something from decades earlier, where actually the Morris Minor comes from, that the gentleman police officer comes to escort you and gives you tea and cake? I think it sort of made people feel quite nostalgic. And I didn't have a mobile phone in 1997 or anything. And I only just had a map, you know, in the car. So I think people just expected to help more, in particular the AA. They were fantastic. Did you get intimately acquainted with the AA? Because I know, and I love old cars as well, they're beautiful, but man, they break down.

They do, yeah. You expect to go from A to B, and you don't always get to B. You mentioned your parents are in Somerset. I believe you had another little breakdown, or Mavis did, on the way to London. Yes, I wanted to take my sister back to London from Somerset, and I was driving, and we were in a queue of traffic a bit near Stonehenge and I thought that the car was going to overheat so I thought well I better just pull off because I was panicking I was putting the radiator on opening the window it's just my sister thought it was very amusing we ended up in a little lay-by and we just watched the sunset and could see Stonehenge. And then I just thought, oh, I've got some cherry bake balls

in my glove compartment. I'll have those. I just thought, well, a little bit of a predicament, but it's quite a nice moment. Yeah, and you wouldn't get that moment without Mavis the Morris Minor. No, it was just lovely. Do you drive a vintage car now? No, I had it for about five years and then when

I moved to Stratford I decided that it was too unreliable you know even like the wing had fallen off once on the m5 hard shoulder and I taped it back on I thought I can't do that with a six month year old child right you know I'd got it when I didn't have responsibilities. So I thought, now I've got responsibilities and I sold it to a young girl who actually she saved up for one. And that was her dream car as it was mine. It went to a good home. Rachel there with Mavis and we'll have more car stories coming your way with our series Women on Wheels Let me turn to my next guest She is the star of the new BBC drama

The following events are based on a pack of lies as I mentioned quite the title The series follows two women who have nothing in common except a con man

and he's also a celebrated here's a new word ecopreneur, for me anyway. His name is Rob. He is also famous for his gaslighting in this series. It's a five part series. It's out today on BBC One and the BBC iPlayer and I think it jumps really

between the light hearted and the comic and the sinister. Let us speak to Rebecca Staten who plays Alice Newman who has been trying to move on from Rob's schemes until one day she sees him by chance on the street. Rebecca, welcome to Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much. I just want to let our listeners know the series starts with this monologue from Rob in very stark colours. And we think maybe this is the usual con man thriller narrative. He's the protagonist of the series telling his side of the story. But actually, then once we get into it, the plot is led by the women and their journeys coming to terms with Rob and his gaslighting.

I'm wondering, it took me a while to get my head into exactly where is this going? What were you thinking when you first read it? Well, when I first read it, I thought whoever gets to play this part is the luckiest actress in the country. And then the second thing I thought was I wanted to know what happened. I needed to see it because on the page, it was so creative and interesting. And I think what we're trying to do as a creative team is to give you the experience of being a victim. So you're not entirely sure whether you're getting the truth or something false. Are you being gaslighted?

And that feeling of being confused, we are playing on that too. We want you to really understand the victim experience in its horror and also sometimes its glory. Yes, and various guises. So the Rob that your character Alice encounters at the beginning of the series is set up as a completely different man from the man that she and her family knew years before. The show focuses on two women in particular with nothing really in common, I suppose, apart from Rob and his deception. How important is the female friendship, would you say, in this series? Well, what I like about this particular friendship is that it's not particularly sweet.

It's very freeing. It's not important to these women that they please each other or are pleasing to each other. It's important to come together in their common goal to take this man down. I found that very refreshing. Not all relationships are sweet by nature. And so they are coming together in a powerful way, I suppose, really as a little team. And Alice, who you play, she's almost a little cowardly, perhaps, at the beginning of the series. How did you understand that part of her character? I found her a very relatable character actually in lots of ways. I think when we see heroes in capes, because we see Alice wearing this pink cape. She does.

This pink cape is very important to the story. She's designed it. She's designed it for a woman who has confidence, who can take up space. But actually, subconsciously, she's designed the item that she needs to go on this journey. And she doesn't have confidence. She's no Marvel superhero. But she has a feeling of injustice and a lot of questions, and that motivates her to keep going. You know, when I saw in one of the episodes, no spoiler here, it's just that cape. She was running through woods at one point, and I thought, ooh, it's like a modern-day red riding hood. Right, right.

Or pink riding hood. And also, it's not an accident that this is quite a bright garment. And a woman in her 40s is wearing it, and yet she seemingly remains invisible. That's very deliberate too. It's Red Riding Hood and Victorian ladies trying to be proper and Marvel superheroes, and now Alice Newman in Pack of Lies. But gaslighting feels like kind of a modern term to me, although, of course, the actions are not.

And it's a huge theme in this series. So small lies maybe to really bigger financial deception. And there was also really part of it of the women trying to forgive themselves for falling for these deceptions. and there was also really part of it of the women trying to forgive themselves for falling for these deceptions. You talk about trying to get across what it's like to be a victim. What did you make of some of those scenes? Well, I think...

And also, I suppose, sorry to interrupt you, Rebecca, also with some of the stories that we hear these days, it seems rampant in a lot of ways. Well, it's really interesting that the person we go on the journey with initially, Alice, is a working class woman over 40, not particularly educated. And I think, do you know, her boss describes what's happened to her as a rich man diddling poor, gullible, you know, gullible poor people. That's the exact quote. But actually what happens with Cheryl is here's someone who Alice would deem as more intelligent, more creative, more capable,

and it's happening to her too. What we quickly realise is that the con man exploits a point of vulnerability that can happen to anyone, regardless of their social class or where they're from or their intelligence. In fact, he just needs or she needs to find your Achilles heel in Alice. Her father's had this life altering accident. And with Cheryl, Marianne Jean-Baptiste's character, she's recently a widow. And once Rob in our show finds these points, he exploits them. And it plays into also, Rebecca, the discussion really about how one can be conditioned

to believe the man's side in many stories without even sometimes people realising that they're doing it. It's something women in these series are guilty of doing, also being conditioned in that way, even when confronted with the truth. What is the series trying to do? Have the discussion and have not just the female point of view, but the victim point of view put front and centre for once. I think the con man is often a very glamorous character and the victim one that's dismissed as a short, brief sentence in the headlines.

Here, what I'm really proud of is's certainly by episode five and i don't want to spoil it but i think we um we have that discussion where as a viewer you suddenly start to think about the things that you've watched and what you've supported uh subconsciously and uh hopefully you'll think a little differently after these five hours. I have to talk about Rob. I read that you needed to keep your distance from Alistair Petrie, who plays him, before some of those scenes because he's too hard to dislike.

I mean, I disliked him massively just watching him. Tell me about that method. Well, no, I assure you, he's an absolutely lovely man. And actually, the fun fact about Alistair and I is that we met and worked together in July 2005, which is the exact date that Alistair and Rob got married. So we'd already got that history. But yes, we needed to create a tension that wasn't there.

And so we decided, well, I actually asked him if he wouldn't mind keeping his distance from me a little bit so that we had that tension and actually I think that does feed into the the scenes that we have together and when they were done we went back to normal of having a great time. Well I have to tell people that it is now available on the BBC iPlayer as well I really really enjoyed it. It's kind of just something unexpected and I had to keep changing my perspective with it as well. So Rebecca Staten, thank you so much for coming in to the Woman's Hour studio. Let me see, back to Women on Wheels, having just wistfully

listened to your article about Mavis, the Morris Minor, and thinking what great cars they were and how long it was since I'd seen one. There was one beside me in the queue at the traffic lights while they're listening. What a delightful coincidence which has made my day. Thanks, Woman's Hour, says Joe P. Well, thanks to the Morris Minor driver beside you. So that is it for today. Thank you so much for your company and all these messages coming in. Do join me tomorrow. I'll be talking to the author Natasha Walter, her beautiful new book Before the Light Fades. We'll talk about that

and I will see you then. you That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm India Axon and I just want to quickly talk to you about witches. In this series from BBC Radio 4 simply titled Witch, I'm going to explore

the meaning of the word today. It is a twisting, turning rabbit warren of a world full of forgotten connections to land and to power, lost graves, stolen words and indelible marks on the world. Because the story of the witch is actually the story of us all. Come and find out why on Witch with me, India Rackerson. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.