Woman's Hour - Sarah Brown, Dr Julia Shaw, Ian Paterson

Episode Date: June 8, 2022

This year marks 20 years since Sarah and Gordon Brown lost their daughter Jennifer, who died ten days after being born seven weeks prematurely. In a search for answers, they founded the Jennifer Brown Research Laboratory in 2004, which looks into the causes and consequences of premature birth. Around 1 in 13 babies in the UK are born prematurely –before 37 weeks. Sarah is Chair of the charity Theirworld and tells Emma about the latest research.It's been over a year since Sarah Everard was adbucted, raped and murdered by a serving police officer, Wayne Couzens, who's now in prison for life. The vigil that followed in London followed to remember Sarah, ended up with clashes with the police and arrests. Now it's been reported that some police officers thought the event was an anti-police protest. The Evening Standard newspaper has printed what certain officers have told Westminster magistrates court this week. They say they faced resistance when they tried to break up the crowd, had feared being attacked, and were branded “murderers” by some people in the crowd. At the moment, six people are being prosecuted by Scotland Yard over the vigil. Jamie Klinger is one of the founders of Reclaim These Streets, which tried to organise the vigil.Psychologist and co-host of BBC podcast Bad People Dr Julia Shaw’s new book Bi: The Hidden Culture, History and Science of Bisexuality combines her own experiences of being bisexual and her background in the psychological sciences to explore and celebrate a sexual identity she says remains marginalised and forgotten.It's been described as "one of the biggest medical scandals ever to hit this country". In 2017 surgeon Ian Paterson was jailed for 20 years after being found guilty of 17 counts of wounding with intent. Mr Paterson was diagnosing cancer when there wasn’t any and cutting his patients open for no reason, performing unnecessary and damaging surgery. He also carried out unregulated "cleavage-sparing" mastectomies, in which breast tissue was left behind, meaning cancer returned in many of his patients. Ahead of a new ITV documentary being broadcast this weekend, Emma speaks to the whistleblower who first raised concerns about Ian Paterson – Mr Hemant Ingle, and one of Paterson’s victim’s Debbie Douglas, who is still campaigning for a change in the law to prevent anything like this from happening again.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Today, an update for you regarding that vigil, the one to mark Sarah Everard's abduction, rape and murder by a police officer and how certain officers are defending their response at that vigil. I will be joined by the whistleblower who drew the attention of the authorities to the activities of Ian Patterson, the now-imprisoned breast surgeon performing unnecessary operations on women and men. And a new look at bisexuality from an academic who's bisexual herself and wants

to change some of the understanding and stigmas associated with it. All that to come. But I also wanted to ask you about something else entirely, if I can. You may recall, if you watched the concert on Saturday night to mark the Queen's Platinum Jubilee, that Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, was sporting an embroidered blue long garment, very striking, on stage next to her husband, the Prince of Wales, as he delivered his speech towards the end of that concert. Well, it's just emerged that the beautiful item of clothing apparently belongs to her spouse, to Prince Charles, who was gifted it on one of his

visits to Saudi Arabia. And I wanted to ask, we were thinking about this this morning, for those occasions, should you have another half, when you have sported their clothes? What was it? Why? And who wore it better, you or them? I've already heard a story this morning about one of my colleagues wearing her husband's underpants. That's a whole other story, but that's because of a luggage mishap, I believe. What about you? Where have you been in those scenarios? Of course, your partner may be a lot more stylish than you or less. We'll see. Or it may have just been a case of necessity.

I'm in the market for all tales this morning. You can text me, as always, here at Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged your standard message rate. Social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or email us through our website. And I should say, not just for response to that question, as always, about anything else you hear in the programme too. We are always all ears and all the better from hearing from you for your views and experiences. But first, this year marks 20 years since Sarah and Gordon Brown lost their daughter, Jennifer, who died 10 days after being born prematurely at 33 weeks.

You may remember that at the time, Mr Brown was the Chancellor. So the couple also had to cope with their loss becoming public information. In a search for answers and in a bid to help others, Sarah and Gordon founded the Jennifer Brown Research Laboratory in 2004 through their charity Their World which she's the chairman and chairwoman I should say which looks into the causes and consequences of premature birth. Around one in 13 babies in the UK are born prematurely before 37 weeks. Sarah Brown joins me now. Good morning, Sarah. Morning, Emma.

Thank you so much for being with us today. And I just started and was thinking this morning about why it's so important for you to talk at this point, 20 years on, and I know you've continued to, but what it means to you? Well, I think 20 years is one of those staging posts. I mean, 20 years was when we set up the charity Their World and creating the lab was the founding project and has continued to grow. It's based at the University of Edinburgh. It's led by Professor James Boardman. So it's a project that we fundraise for and support and bring different visitors to and engage with. And then obviously the charity has gone on to focus on very much on early years and through to safe schooling. But that was that original founding project. And also because it's so personal to us, it's just woven into us to help others and see that they don't have the loss, if at all possible, that we faced.

I remember letters I received at the time from women who said, mothers who said, you know, I lost my baby 50 years ago and I still carry that loss with me. And I remember feeling at the time thinking, I don't know if I can always have that, you know, huge grief sitting inside me. But actually you do, you learn to cherish it because that little baby was a very, very important part of our life. The 10 days we spent with her was so precious to us. And, you know, you'd feel, well, you know, whatever that pain is, it's also about love. And so you can do carry it with you. So I understand those letters now, in a way that I perhaps didn't at the time. It must have felt overwhelming to receive those letters. I understand you received quite a few. I received 13,000 letters. And it took a year to reply to all of them, which I mean, I didn't hand write every note, but I did write back to everybody with a postcard with a picture of Jennifer on it.

And I particularly took time with anyone writing to say that they'd experienced a personal loss there. But in a way, those letters were what brought me to feeling that we needed to do something. It was a combination of, in losing Jennifer, we didn't have an explanation. We didn't know why it had happened. And as I started to learn more, and as I started to hear the stories of other mothers, other grandmothers writing to me

to share what had happened in their families, you realise so many families didn't have the answer. And so that led me to the next round of questions as to why, why there were missing answers. Do you have the answer now? Do you have any understanding with regards to Jennifer? No. And if you look back to 20 years, there's, you know, the knowledge has changed so much. And work that's taking place around the world, including that of the Jennifer Brown Research Laboratory, is contributing so substantially to how we understand steering somebody, steering a mother through a safe pregnancy, but also complications at birth and then the consequences of prematurity,

which is something that we're really focusing on, too, where, you know, pregnancy is, you know, there are risks in pregnancy and childbirth and we can put in all the amazing medical knowledge and know-how, the care. I mean, I certainly couldn't fault, and I hear this time and time again, that the doctors, nurses, midwives who are involved in the birth, it's not their lack of expertise, but they need greater expertise, greater knowledge, greater understanding. And that's why I thought at that time the best contribution we could make would be to create something that was the scientific research in the laboratory.

And knowledge that's come out there has certainly contributed to changing outcomes along the way. Once you know who's going to have a slightly more complicated pregnancy, it's easier to monitor them more carefully and when a baby has arrived prematurely, there are so many things to learn there. Well yes, I mean there are many people, I was watching a video about the laboratory last night, there are many people I was watching a video about the laboratory last night there are many who are part of the studies ongoing very proud to be and then there are those who've also directly benefited from some of the research and what's changed over the last 20 years and and also a connection just with the Labour Party as well which I found a lovely story if I may with John Smith the former Labour leader's granddaughter, I believe.

Is that right? No, it's her daughter, Catherine. Yeah, my friend Catherine Smith. So Ella is her baby who was born very prematurely. And when her baby arrived, you know, suddenly and surprisingly and quite early and needed special care in a neonatal unit, she was told that her baby was benefiting from the work of the Jennifer Brown Research Laboratory and perhaps might not have survived without it. And that work was very particularly around oxygen levels in the incubator. If you have too much, that can be as damaging as

too little. So learning and understanding how to calibrate that right helps with that last late brain development, but also eyesight and hearing and things that happen all at late stages of pregnancy. And it's so important to get right. So knowing the right levels of oxygen to put in. Yeah, absolutely. It turns out you, you would think you just need to make sure there's enough oxygen, more oxygen because obviously too little will affect brain development, but too much is also dangerous.

And so very sophisticated calibrations now to get that right. It's very striking, of course, to hear her name, to hear Jennifer Brown and have her name associated with something. How healing has that been for you and Gordon and the family to have her name be associated with a living project that is helping people? Well, I think lots of people will start projects in honour of something and in memory of something.

And you see when charities start that they're very much driven by somebody's experience. You learn something. You know, at Downing Street, I'd worked with so many charities, hosted so many, met so many people. But I didn't actually think at that time I'd be creating something of my own and certainly not seeing something that's grown to such a scale and looking back at it 20 years later um I don't know that that part of it is healing I think it's important and powerful and I love everything

that they're creating but for us our personal loss is something that lives with us um and just is what it is you know I've said before if I could turn back the clock and have it not happen, I'd probably do that, even though all the good that follows might not happen too. Yes, because of the impact. Well, I think any mother would say that. Yes, and you have two boys and I wonder with them, I mean, has the project and the work around Jennifer,

I'm sure you talk about her and keep her alive in all ways that you can. But has that also, I don't know, given her more of a legacy, do you think, with them and within the family? Or how do you manage that with other children? Yeah, we talk about her. She's part of her pictures in our home. And that's part of our family.

So I suppose the laboratory exists separately. And, you know know I love that it carries her name but I also feel that we represent many of the families who contribute and work with us I mean the Their World Edinburgh birth cohort has 400 families who either have early babies or full-term babies and we've made an investment that they'll be studied over their right from birth through to age 25 so it's a really long term commitment, but really critical to understanding. So I feel those families are much a part of it. And also we have families who take part in the fundraising,

who come and support in other ways, who've been with us on that whole journey. So while the lab carries Jennifer's name, I feel like we're there to represent a far bigger circle and far greater community of families. Do women still come to talk to you about loss and that side of things? Because what I mentioned that Gordon, of course, you yourself are a very successful executive PR and all sorts of other background parts of your career. But he was the chancellor at the time. There was a lot of publicity about this. And I wonder how that made the experience.

And if you still welcome women coming to talk to you in particular. Well, I've never had to explain to anybody what happened to us, which I've always felt made it slightly easier. I think it must be so difficult for, you know, a mother returning back to work after losing a baby where someone's cheerily asking you for the baby news and you have to explain to them your loss. And find the words. We haven't had that. But it's also meant that we've been very open to people coming and sharing their stories. And I've always made myself available to talk to mothers who want to talk about their loss or who want to know what happens next.

You know, it's such a huge thing that happens. You feel so very broken. And what I've said is, you know, what I've learned is the reason you feel that pain and that loss is because it's about love. So not to run away from that love that you're feeling, and that will only kind of sustain and carry you forward. And also to know that you don't ever actually have to be the same again. You don't have to fix. I've spent quite a lot of time trying to just get myself back to normal and fix myself and once you realize you're a different person and I think that must be true of many other life experiences too but it's certainly true here that um that's how you go forward with life you know go forward with the experiences that you have and they change you

as you go did it take you a while to realize that because a lot of people listening you know they might not get in touch but they'll appreciate the advice and your experience. How long did that take you perhaps to realise that? I feel whenever I'm talking to other families, other groups about this, that I've learned so much from so many other families, that it's not just my voice that I'm sharing. And I feel that about the Jennifer Bam Research Lab, that, you know, we're bringing together the knowledge that we have from so many different families. And that's what's going to create and unlock the changes that will reduce the likelihood of things happening. And don't forget, this isn't just about the medical care and what happens during childbirth and care in the neonatal unit. This is also about all those years afterwards.

We're learning so much through the research about what happens to premature babies, how their brains develop. We invested very early on in the most phenomenal MRI scanner that we had a stake in at the University of Edinburgh that can scan baby's brain safely even before they're born, which is such an amazing thing. That certainly wasn't happening 20 years ago. But it means you can look at those changes in the brain, differences where babies are premature. And for me, that means being able to be there and put in the right care and support. Sometimes we don't get to the early learning support that's needed until those children start at school. If we start to learn and know about what we can do now, some of those

early learning interventions can go in. You know, at Their World, we're very passionate about the best start in life. And that investment in preschool and early learning we're learning all the time is so critical and everything that's coming out of the jennifer brown research laboratory is backing that up from the scientific end you also i should say as part of your your charity their world you are committed to looking at the global education situation and of course just thinking about ukraine, hopefully never far from our thoughts. You tweeted back in March that Ukraine's children need urgent action to safeguard their education, even as we consider safety. What is the work of your organisation on that front? Are you

involved in Ukraine or where are things up to from your perspective on that, do you think? The thing that's really important with education is it's the first thing to go when a crisis hits and quite often after humanitarian assistance has come it's the last thing to go back in but when you talk to refugee families and we've just had a delegation go out to moldova to meet with ukrainian families there learn and understand what they're needing but also what the host government needs to be able to support that but their first thing they're asking for once they're settled and but also what the host government needs to be able to support that. But the first thing they're asking for once they're settled and safe is for their children to have education, because it's their lifeline to hope, and it's their future to know that that's there. But more

than that, it also provides a stability for those children very, very quickly. You're in an environment where you can have your school meal, and you be looked after and you can, any of the kind of trauma and stresses can be addressed in that setting, as well as continuing some version of normality and going back to school and learning. So we've been out to Moldova, we've got a project that we're just preparing to be able to provide support to many of the host countries around the outside, so that they can accommodate children going back to school, have the equipment, address some of the language issues and certainly the trauma support.

And it's something we've done before working in the Greek islands and working in Lebanon with Syrian refugees, refugees from Afghanistan coming through from Africa. So the expertise we have. Well, I think it's also, it's very striking some of the images, I don't know if you've seen in some of the papers today of the young women of Ukraine wearing their prom dresses standing in the midst of rubble. Proms are a big thing for some of the communities and schools. And I mean, they look incredible, you know, some of them dress up to the absolute nines, but it's such a, you know, a contrast there.

But the desire, as you say, for normality, for education, for parties, for the young is incredibly strong. And in a weird way, it kind of, it brings you joy to see it, but also it brings the horror into sharper relief as well. Yeah, they're able to share a very strong story and remind you that they're there and remind you that they deserve their future too. But I think it also shows that those ways of bringing back in normality quite quickly also provide quite strong psychosocial support when people have experienced trauma and that must have a hugely positive effect for them if you're able to provide it as well as for the communities they'll be living in and where they're you know where they'll be in the future so it's actually important for all of us I mean humanitarian aid is obviously is under pressure all budgets are under pressure and we have to try and make

less go further at the moment and to me education is a really key part of delivering something that has such wide-reaching positive effect but also provides an environment in which you can support children too with the nutrition and health support that they need. Away from prom dressing, but dresses nonetheless, I have to say, Sarah, a lot of messages coming in in response to what you've been talking about, but also in response to my first question. I don't suppose you wear many of Gordon Brown's outfits if we talk about borrowing clothes.

I'm going to be honest, I can't think of a time when he's been gifted a sparkly jacket. But if I ever want to wear a navy blue suit and a red or purple tie I know who's covered to look in it's very close to yours but you haven't raided it yet that's right Sarah Brown it's lovely to have you on the program thank you very much for coming to talk to us about the um the laboratory about the Jennifer Brown laboratory and the research and of course also there about education thank you so much Emma I did say those messages coming in course, also they're about education. Thank you so much, Emma. I did say those messages coming in and they're coming in from men,

they're coming in from women, they're coming in women who've got female partners who perhaps dress better than them. Men who say their other halves, if they're women, are always borrowing their stuff because of pockets. It's a whole range here. Let me give you a flow.

Valusi says, I've been married to my husband for 27 years, but I still wear his faded, ripped 501 jeans that he was wearing when we met when he was 21. I definitely wear them better. All right, Lucy. Good backing of oneself. We've got another one here. I am now wearing right now my husband's base layer, which I bought for him. It's perfect for this changeable weather and he's not here. So finders keepers. I'm also about to ride his new horse does that count yeah we'll take that um caroline i went to an ultravox gig in the 80s wearing my husband's brown pinstripe suit complete with a feminine blouse and tie and my grandfather's uh felt hat hornberg felt hat

hornberg felt hat i think sorry i'm not reading that right uh for the for the first time i think i look quite cool but my husband wouldn't stand near me it's Caroline thank you for that hello uh boyfriend jean slash coat jacket it's a whole look I always borrow my partner's clothes his jeans are worn in his jackets are roomy and lived in I can highly recommend it I also wore my dad's clothes in the late 80s when I left school and I had no money my dad was super stylish my partner hates me borrowing his clothes says. Let's put a little kiss on the end of that message. Keep them coming in on 84844. Do let us know. But as I mentioned, an update for you with regards to a vigil.

It has been over a year since Sarah Everard was killed. Her murder shocked people, sparked outrage and became a defining moment in this country. She was a young woman simply walking home in London during lockdown and was abducted, raped and murdered by a serving police officer, Wayne Cousins, who's now in prison for life. You'll remember a vigil in London followed. There were very striking images, of course, afterwards. And what started out as people coming together to remember Sarah

and shine a light on women's safety, more generally ended up with clashes with the police and some arrests. Now it's been reported that some police officers thought that the event was an anti-police protest. The Evening Standard newspaper has printed what certain officers have told Westminster Magistrates Court this week. They say they faced resistance when they tried to break up the crowd and had feared being attacked and were branded murderers by some people in the crowd. At the moment, I should say six people are being prosecuted by Scotland Yard over the vigil live cases. We did invite the Metropolitan Police on this morning, we got in touch. They said they would not be commenting because of ongoing court

proceedings. So mindful of that, of course. But let me talk to Jamie Klinger, one of the founders of Reclaim These Streets, which tried to organise the vigil. Jamie, good morning. Good morning. The bit of insight from some of these police officers I just shared there. I presume you've had a look at this. What was your response? My response is that they when we approached them proactively to put on the vigil, they actually by banning it and by trying to silence us, gave it 10 times the publicity. They took away all the infrastructure and all of the stewards and all the ways we were there to keep women safe, poured gasoline on it, and then were like, oh, look what you made me do. The next morning, Louisa Wolf, who was the deputy commissioner, said people crowded in because there was no PA system, so they couldn't hear. The PA system was in my living room. And the day that they decided to pursue these prosecutions

was the day that was admitted yesterday, was the day that they found out they lost against us in high court. So it's just vindictive. Just if I may, with the high court side of things, I've spoken to Anna Burley, your co-founder, before about this. This was a particular case that you did win with regards to whether it was right. You explain. Why don't you explain? So basically, the police had to have a proportional review of the public health and safety versus our Human Rights Act and whether or not we had the right to assemble. And because they did not believe that we had any right to assemble because of health restrictions. This is lockdown rules, we should say. Lockdown rules, yeah. They treated it like it was illegal from the get-go. And by treating it

like it was illegal, they never policed it like women had any right to be there to mourn. So every policing decision that was made, every part of it went against the right to be there. And so in doing that, they went in with the plan to break it up. They said every gathering was illegal, every gathering would be unlawful. The Thursday of that week, Harriet Harman wrote to Cressida Dick and said, not only did we have a reasonable excuse, but she would be attending. And if anybody had ever stood up and said, wait a minute, guys, let's let's community police this. Let's coordinate. Let's work with them to make this an environment where women can safely mourn. None of this would have happened. Right. So you went to high court about that, won that particular battle. And the Met is not able to appeal that. They tried twice and lost.

And lost and haven't been successful, I should say, in that respect. So now hearing, I suppose, and I'm aware that these are live cases, hence the Metropolitan, that's their reason this morning, certainly for not coming on to the radio. But we do have this insight about, you know, for instance, from PC Alexander Davis, a witness statement, he's a police officer saying that the mood of the crowd had also shifted from showing respect to Sarah Everard to anti-police protest. What do you make of that? Putting aside the run up to it, how it actually was? I wasn't there on the night, but in terms of that women were angry, a police officer had used his badge to rape, murder and abduct a woman. Yes, they were angry. Yes, we had a right to be angry. A person

that was nicknamed the rapist stayed in a police department for years and years. I'm still angry. And last night we were at the March on the Met for Biba and Nicole. Yes, I'm still furious, but in a democracy, we're allowed to have anti-police demonstrations. We're allowed to be angry when we're not being policed by consent. that's that's part of our human rights and that's the thing they i've gone to vigils for ashley murphy i've gone to vigils for sabine anessa and and you could hear a pin drop there we we put on a vigil for biba nicole on nicole's uh birthday last year the police can do this and do this well they should not have stormed the bandstand they They should not have manhandled women at a vigil about police violence against women.

Of course there's going to be anger. Who wasn't curious? Just when you're talking about Biba and Nicole, you're talking about Biba Henry and Nicole Smallman. Yesterday was two years since their murder, since their killing. We actually had their mother, Mina Smallman, on the programme only a couple of weeks ago,

responding to the latest twists and turns, I'm sorry to say, about what's gone on with their fight for justice subsequently. And just wanted to make sure people were following who you were talking about there. But your point there is there was a very specific context as well to what was going on with regards to Sarah Everard and the mood towards the police?

Absolutely. He had been arrested and we had been told the only way to keep ourselves safe and alive was to stay in our own homes. Yes, we were furious. We had been isolated. We were scared. We had seven days of this grief that had nowhere to go. And yes, there was fury. But there's ways to understand that fury. They should have been handing out tissues. They should not have's part of the statement that he said. Is your view that there are training and ability of the police to be able to understand different sentiment depending on context? Yes, and downplay it and have some empathy and understanding for what we were all going through. Like there is a way to police that there is a way to give women space. And yes,

there were definitely people that were not there for that reason. But who has not seen a protest in London where there's one guy with a Palestinian flag? Every protest has people from outlying events. But what the police did by giving it so much publicity was attract all of those other people. What we wanted to do was have a moment of silence. My friends were bringing their babies. We had wardens that were going to walk people to bus stations to keep them safe because we were all scared. Like the point of it was that we wanted a safe place to grieve and the police silenced that. And then we all watched those videos. They didn't need to go into the bandstand. They didn't need to trample on flowers left for Sarah. Yeah. And I think it's also, you know, regardless of where legal proceedings are up to at the moment, it's worth reminding people, and we obviously covered it extremely closely here on Women's Hour, of things like public advice at the time, public mood, how in

particular women were feeling, and the extra complexity or complexion of this, that it was a serving police officer, because these were all the context and lockdown. And it was a protest. It was meant to be a protest. And the fact that the police have done all of this vindictive prosecution against us while holding the door open for number 10, this whole fear or favour thing, I'm sorry, I am furious because it's not fair. They've got to be indebted against the women that were protesting. A cop that was, it was one of them that killed her. So yes, people yelling shame at the police.

They were right to yell shame. I do not think any police should be injured. I am not, you know, that is not what I'm a proponent of by any means. But to not understand the fury and to not understand how angry we are, it's a year and a half on and I'm still angry. Well, of course, I mean, a lot of police officers were also angry, you know, and there was huge sorrow expressed by many. We got in touch at the time here on this programme that this was a person who was part of their force force it's also worth noting that

when we approached the lambeth police they said to us in writing we will find a way to police this we are as angry as you are and the local police were working with us they were talking about having it only policed by women and then scotland yard stepped in and said absolutely not it can't happen so from the powers that be we were shut down and silenced illegally as confirmed by High Court. Is that where it ends now for you with regards to this? There's no other processes ongoing? Yeah, our court case is over.

I will continue to fight and fundraise for the women that had a reasonable excuse and who were protesting. Is that the work of Reclaim the Streets, I suppose, at the moment, or is there other work? No, I'm personally going to help with those women. Reclaim, we're doing consent workshops, we're distributing the £550,000 that was given to the Rosa Stand With Us Fund for violence against women and girls charities. Jamie Klinger, thank you. Thank you. Just wanted to bring you an update on that. And as I say, we invited the Met Police on this morning and the reply was that they were not commenting because of ongoing court proceedings. I have to say many

messages also still coming into my original question with regarding clothes. I don't know if this counts but I have a pair of stout green wellies that my son grew out of during a vertiginous growth spurt at 13. They're the perfect fit for me and I still wear them. The ex-owner will be 38 next week, says Julia. Linda, in the 70s, my late husband had bright yellow flares with a black button fly. I coveted them so much and eventually persuaded him rather to let me try them on. He didn't get them back and I wore them until they fell apart. I loved those jeans. I look forward to a bit more insights coming in. I can still see them coming in. I will return to these messages. But I mentioned a new look at bisexuality while talking about relationships, I suppose, and sharing of clothes. Let's talk about this because

Dr. Julia Shaw, a psychologist with the University College London and part of the think tank Queer Politics at Princeton University across the pond has been spending some time on it. She's written a new book by The Hidden Culture, History and Science of Bisexuality which combines her own experience of being bisexual and her background in the psychological sciences. Julia good morning. Good morning. Thank you for being with us and I was just minded to look at some of the latest data that came out last week from the ONS Population Survey, which showed more than one in 10 young women in the UK now identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or other. And the largest group of those not identifying as heterosexual, 7.6% say that they are bisexual. So I'm sure you will have seen some of these number sets around the world. How do you define bisexuality? So bisexuality is the sexual and or romantic attraction to multiple genders. So it's sometimes misconstrued that bi means men and women, but actually the binary that bi refers to is a combination of hetero and homosexual attractions. And some people would also be thinking it might

mean two, bi as two, if they're familiar of it in that way. Well, it does mean two, and the two are heterosexual and homosexual. Yes. So it's not two genders. They think of it as two, they think of it perhaps as two sexes as well, in that way. And this is part of what you start to unpack right at the beginning of the book, isn't it? Exactly, exactly. So there are lots of misconceptions about bisexuality, not the least what bi actually means. And just to be clear, in terms of what I mean, when I say bi, I also include labels such as pansexual,

plurisexual, omnisexual. There's other labels that can fall under what's called the bisexual umbrella. And researchers often talk about all of those identities together as bisexual. And so therefore, do you think the word still stands in that respect? Because with people saying I'm pansexual, whatever, they may think bi is a bit, you know, and people always like to do this people identify their own sexuality who are bisexual and who say that they're pan we define them in the same way so I think the the differences seem to be linguistic rather than practical and bisexual has I use it because it has the longest history and it has the biggest research and it's the easiest to understand and your your own realization of being bisexual, was that early?

Was that more recent? When did that happen? Yeah, I always knew that I was bi. I didn't, I never went through, I sometimes joke, I never went through a heterosexual phase. So I, yeah, I've always known. I think I first used the word when I was in my teens.

I don't know where I learned it, but I obviously knew it from somewhere. I didn't have any role models, which is something that I'm hoping to change with this book, is to really bring out some people who have attractions beyond gender and who, you know, are in the sciences, are in history books, are or should be in history books. People who are in pop culture and doing amazing things in politics so I'm really hoping to bring like who do you want to give a few examples if you are trying to bring people to the fore are there individuals that you you particularly want to name yes sure so for example Brenda Howard who is also called the mother of pride and is actually also a story that we're covering in a BBC podcast

that we're launching on Thursday called Bi People. And so we'll be covering Brenda Howe's story next week and how she was crucial in establishing the pride marches that we know around the world today. And yet most people don't realize that bisexual people had anything to do with pride or had anything to do with gay and queer activism. And so I really want to make sure that people understand that there is a place for us and to take that space. Also because they're just, as much as we need to be careful not to say there's nothing on bisexuality, because there is a lot on bisexuality if you look deeply, it's just often quite difficult to find. And so I'm trying to make it easier to find and bring lots of voices to the table with me.

Why do you think it's been difficult to find? What's going on with that? Well, for one, it's been erased. So sometimes bisexual people have been obscured or erased from history. And one of the reasons for that is because if we look at, for example, how historians, so I did a master's in queer history as part of the research for this book, and you can see how historians deal with the issue of homosexuality in the past as basically saying anyone who had any homosexual desires, suddenly they're counted as gay or lesbian. And what that does is it often erases bisexuality. And so I think one thing we need to introduce for especially people whose sexuality we're not sure of or we're not totally sure of their attractions, we can say things like, oh, that person is gay or bi.

So I really want people to start using that inclusive language because that makes bisexuality visible. And it allows space for people within your family, for yourself to grow and say, oh, bi, like me. And not to erase that repeatedly, which is what mostly happens now. And what do you think are some of the stigmas associated with saying you're bisexual? Oh, man. So some of the first things that, according to research, are core assumptions about bisexuality have to do with hypersexualization and erasure of, well, the reality of being bi. So for women, quite often the problem is that the assumption is when you say that you're bisexual is that it's performative,

that you're doing it for the male gaze. So it's for the attention of men. I mean, I've been accused of being attention-seeking for writing this whole book, which I find would be quite the performance if I was pretending to be bi just for attention. It's quite a lot of effort to write a book as well, isn't it? Yeah. Even this't it? Yeah. Yeah.

And so unfortunately, the knock-on effects of this hyper-sexualization go into many spheres. So in universities, we see that bisexual women are more likely to be sexually assaulted and less likely to receive appropriate counseling services than their peers. In workplaces, bisexuals are given a bisexuality penalty when coming up because it's seen as inappropriate or too sexual it's seen as basically talking about threesomes and or that you're interested in something else and it's not seen as a valid identity or by men well i was gonna say also all the word greedy is used you know it's it's a joke yes it's a joke it's greedy it's a

phase it's not real it's not enough of anything so it's not enough Yes, it's a joke. It's greedy. It's a phase. It's not real. It's not enough of anything. So it's not enough heterosexual. It's not enough for queer spaces sometimes. And it leaves bisexual people more isolated than their peers, which is a travesty. There's also a trope that you talk about in there with one of the coming out stories in your book, I should say, with someone doing it through a cake. And that's because the trope could be along the lines of having your cake and eating it if you're bisexual. But they were

very nervous, I understand, to tell family members, and they baked a cake, you say, with the words bi on the top? Yeah, so I now know lots of bi coming out stories. So unfortunately, research finds that bisexual people are less than half as likely to be out to significant people in their lives than homosexual people. And so there's a huge bi closet. Most people who are bisexual are in the closet. So you, we all know people who are bisexual and we don't know that they're bi because they aren't out and that needs to change. And that's one of the main things I want to achieve with this book. But the bi cake story. So one of the most memorable stories I've been told about coming out was by a young woman who said that she was really nervous about telling her parents that she was bisexual because

of all of the stigma that can come with that and the fear of it. And so she said that she baked cake and she, and I just like picture this sort of really fabulous cake although it could have been really basic I don't know and she said that she was in the kitchen and her parents came in and she started crying and because she was so nervous and she didn't know how to get the words out and her parents are like oh what's wrong what's wrong and she's like it's a cake and so they went and uncovered the cake and immediately and it just said she said i am bi so she'd written on top of this cake that her coming out and then her parents came yeah and her parents came and immediately gave her a hug and it was a very positive coming out

experience for her she said but you can see the the nerves that come with coming out as any non-heterosexual identity of course but bisexuality specifically and it's not just kids coming out as any non-heterosexual identity of course but bisexuality specifically and it's not just kids coming out right parents also need to come out to their parents parents need to come out to their parents and to their children as well you mean correct yeah and to their children so people who are themselves parents we often talk about sort of children or teenagers or young people coming out to their parents but we rarely talk about people who are already mothers or fathers themselves coming out in both directions. So coming up potentially to their own parents and coming out to their children. Because one thing that research shows is that often there's an erasure of your bisexuality if you're in a monogamous relationship.

Because the assumption is that your sexuality is whatever partner you currently are with so if you're a mother and you are why why do you think that's important to to have parents come out to children oh so that's that's a good question and the mostly it's for people to be their authentic selves within the context of their families and unlike homosexual people who are often then visibly within a relationship or a family structure where you can say you know there's two dads or there's two moms you don't really need to come out it's sort of obvious but for bi people there's still um well if you want to come out if you want to be visible in that way there's a need to say it and at some point have that conversation and i think that

if i think that if is quite interesting. I imagine we're going to get some messages on this and I've seen some messages like this before. But what do you say to those who don't feel

the need to come out, whatever they are, but because they feel coming out in some ways passe, it shouldn't be necessary anymore. They also perhaps don't wish to be defined by their sexuality, which they then,

through no fault of their own could be all of those are valid concerns but unfortunately the reality of statistics around the sexualization and invisibility of bisexual people and the consequences of that for the bisexual community mean that a lack of visibility is one of the main reasons i think that people think they know nothing about bisexuality and they continue to stigmatize us. So I think there, if people can come out, even if you feel like it's not going to be particularly important for your own life, it is almost certainly going to be important for the lives of others, including you don't know this maybe until you have come out,

the people around you. So when I came out, the amount of my friends who were like, me too. And suddenly we had these conversations. Suddenly they could tell me about things that they also found challenging about being that sexuality. Nevermind, of course, standing up for people who don't or can't have a voice in places where human rights abuses are perpetrated against people who are bi. So I think speaking up if you feel able to is a really important thing to do and a really good thing to do for others, even if you feel like, well, you know, I don't want to make a fuss. Make a fuss. Julia Shaw, thank you very much. The book's called Bi, the Hidden Culture, History and Science of Bisexuality. It's out now. And as she mentioned,

there's a special first episode of By People this Thursday on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, your message is still coming in and I will try to return also a couple of messages coming in with regards to the discussion of the policing of that vigil. But we're now going to turn our attention to being a whistleblower, in particular around a story many of you will remember. It's been described as one of the biggest medical scandals ever to have hit this country, and the man at the centre of it became known as the butchering breast surgeon. In 2017, the surgeon Ian Patterson was jailed for 20 years after being found guilty of 17 counts of wounding with intent.

Mr Patterson, who was working for both the NHS and private hospitals in the West Midlands, was diagnosed in cancer when there wasn't any and cutting his patients open for no reason, performing unnecessary and damaging surgery. He also carried out unregulated cleavage-sparing mastectomies in which breast tissue was left behind, meaning cancer returned in many of his female patients. The cases of hundreds more women that Patterson performed surgery on are still being investigated. A new ITV documentary being broadcast this weekend, we'll hear for the first time from whistleblower Mr Hemant Ingle, who worked alongside Patterson at Solihull Hospital, as well as one of his private

patients, Debbie Douglas, who is still campaigning for justice. They both join me now. And welcome to you both, I should say. But Mr. Ingle, if I can start with you. Good morning. Morning, Eman. Good morning to the listeners of Radio 4. You started working with Ian Paterson some time ago in 2007. He had a reputation as one of the best surgeons in the business. But you had concerns early on, didn't you? No, I didn't have any concerns early on.

Only thing is when I joined, the first day when we met, after our MDT, it's called multidisciplinary team meeting, I went to introduce myself because he had not met me before. And his first comment was, you shouldn't have been appointed. We don't need you so you can imagine as a new consultant who's newly appointed when you get a response like that you're taken aback and all I could say is well your medical director appointed me you should check with him not with me so I didn't have any concern regarding him as such but I could see that he was going to be a difficult character.

But I had known that before, simply because five years before I was appointed, there was another consultant who actually left the job. And she was appointed. I won't take her name, but she knows who she is. And if she wants, she can contact you. And basically, after six months in the job, he didn't give her any clinic, didn't give her any theatre. And eventually when she said, look, I need something, he said, well, this is how it's going to be. It's a dog eat dog world. If you want to stay, stay, otherwise you can leave. So I knew it's not going to be easy. What did provoke your concern? Number of cases, number of cases.

I mean, we used to fight in MDT all the time because he was advocating reconstruction inappropriately. And I thought this is not really and some of them are colleagues, just to make sure that I'm not making a fuss unnecessarily. And in fact, three of the cases, they flatly refused. They said, this is dangerous. You shouldn't be offering reconstruction. One of them, there was a bit of a debate, and it's a term called papillomatosis, which has caused a lot of confusion. And one said, well, if that's the case, then I'll offer a reconstruction. Other one said, no, I won't offer a reconstruction.

So basically, these were the cases where he was then taking them across. And as far as I know, even those three cases where Warwick said you shouldn't be operating, he still went out and did the reconstruction. But one of the major concern was when he asked me one day to say, can you go ahead and do a reconstruction on the lady who he'd seen privately and he said well that lady has got pre-cancer the word we use is TCIS which is called ductal carcinoma in situ and I thought well actually the man is not too bad even though we fighting he's obviously offering his theater list you know as a junior surgeon as a consultant you think what somebody's offering you they're trusting your ability but the standard is to present the case properly to say this is the histology this side we're doing it this is the mammogram he didn't have anything so I said look

can we discuss it next week and next week also it was the same scenario no histology available and at that time he said you're going to Western Thetan, aren't you? And I had to then stop him to say, you know, we're not discussing the case. Can I have the histology properly? And I had to actually go to the minority coordinator and say, can you find this histology wherever it is? The shock to me was when the third time it was presented, there was no DCIS in this case. It was a completely benign histology. And I just then challenged him to say, where exactly is this DCIC talking about? Why do you want me to do a mastectomy on somebody when it's a benign tissue? Where I felt really sad and anxious that he just became angry, didn't answer to me.

But nobody in that MDT, where so many people, pathologists, radiologists, breast care nurses, another colleague of mine, nobody even once then stopped him to say, Ian, why did you actually ask him to do this? That's when my tentacles were up to say, this guy will really do anything. And he still obviously doesn't like me, doesn't want me there. What sort of responses were you receiving when you did go on to raise your concerns with more senior people at Solihull Hospital NHS Trust and then also where he worked the private provider Spire Healthcare? Well Spire Healthcare really won't come in picture at this stage because remember when you're

appointed a new appointed consultant surgeon all you're looking after is making sure that you actually establish properly you do a job properly. Suddenly changing from a registrar, becoming consultant is not easy. Somebody is always supervising you as your registrar. When you become consultant, you are now responsible. So private never even came in picture at that time. Private came in picture much later on. But some of the cases that came across, they were alarming.

I mean, just to give a brief background, mastectomy, what we tell patients, if you remove 95 to 97 percent of the breast tissue, that's what a mastectomy is, right? Now, whether you do a skin sparing, where you leave the skin behind and do reconstruction between, that is still the issue, that you remove that much breast tissue. The first case that I saw, and unfortunately, this lady has passed away. Her sister is also my patient, and I got her permission, but I'm not going to mention any names. If I just give you briefly, this lady had a left breast cancer, and he persuaded her to have a reconstruction. There were various reasons behind that. But this lady had large breasts,

and all she wanted is bilateral mastectomy so that she didn't want to carry this breast all along. Now, he did first cancer surgery and he did a left mastectomy. I'm just going to give you briefly how tricky this patient was when she presented to me as a follow up. So first mastectomy on the left side, the tissue removed was 1 kilo 74 grams, 1074 grams. Right. That's the cancer side side it's a 5.1 millimeter centimeter cancer then he left so much tissue behind that when she wasn't happy he did then second surgery and in the second surgery he removed further 800 grams of tissue now that's 40 percent of breast tissue left behind and on the right side, as he started the operation,

he removed something like 800 grams of tissue in the first operation. On the right side, in the second operation, 970 grams of breast tissue removed. And this patient was still wearing an A-cup bra. So you can imagine that was really something I just couldn't understand. How can you describe it as a mastectomy? Have you ever understood his motivations? No, I'm not going to comment on that topic because obviously it will be a conjecture. I and so many of my colleagues, we got our own idea why this was happening. But NHS was

one motivation and private was another motivation. Let me bring in Debbie at this point. Debbie, good morning. Hello, good morning. What sort of treatment did you receive from Ian Patterson? I presented to Ian Patterson with a less than two centimetre tumour and basically no spread to my lymph nodes.

And I went in on the Friday and on the Monday, he went from telling me my lymph had to be removed to telling me my breast had to come off but he could immediately reconstruct my breast he could give me a double mastectomy a single mastectomy and I'd go in with two boobs and come out with two boobs and a nice flat stomach and that's how he used to talk he basically said if you do what I say it's curable so I had every faith in him and went along and was only to find out years down the line that I was over operated on and that was the issue so so because what was true and what was not true

so what was true is I had cancer right because some people didn't some people did a lot of people didn't have cancer the people that talked to me didn't have cancer. The people that were in court, the 10 people in court, didn't have cancer. But you did. I did, but I did not need to have an immediate reconstruction and my breast removed. And it was a very debilitating operation.

I was cut from hip to hip. I was removed on my lymph nodes. I was given chemo. I was scans under patterson um he would get you in this culture of fear and um you know always on the edge where you need a scan um you know people worry anyway when they've got cancer that or they've had cancer that potentially could come back and what he was doing was he was keeping in this loop of fear and what happened to to people like me and and many thousands of patients you know you're talking about 11 000 patients had to be written to that saw patterson he would then have you back uh one example is that i he scanned me using a peck scan technique which is quite invasive.

And he said to me, you have a nodule of dubious suspicion on your right lung. And immediately I thought, oh, my God, my dad died of cancer. I've got cancer. And it was always this kind of cat and mouse game almost with him saying, you're cured. I've done everything for you. And then saying, oh, but you need this scan. So the mental anguish really that he caused patients can't be underestimated. You know, when he came into me telling me that he told them,

for example, that cancer was like ants spreading around their body and, you know, they had phobias about ants, that there was so much trauma caused by this man, it's unfathomable.able well i'm very sorry for for what happened to you and i think we must say that but also i'm very aware of the fact that you've been involved with persuading people to come forward once it started to come to light that there was issues and as you say and as i mentioned at the beginning, there are more women in particular, as well as men, we should say, who are still being contacted and are unaware of whether something happened to them that shouldn't. And I have to say, we've just received the most extraordinary message, Debbie, if I can read it to you from a listener who said, I've tuned in this morning to discover that you are doing an article on Ian Patterson. I'm in shock as I received the news last week that my operation performed by Ian Patterson was totally unnecessary as none of the

diagnostic tests revealed that any surgery was necessary. I'm sure that many more cases will continue to appear and it is horrific that this went on with no questions being raised. The scale of lies and deceit is horrific. There's no name on that message, but that just came in as we were talking, Debbie. That's honestly typical. I belonged to various support groups. I was part of a Solihull Breast Friends cancer charity straight after my diagnosis almost.

And I fundraised for them, became part of the committee. So I was in a position to hear so many stories. We were being recalled and we were told it was just fatty tissue. But I knew in my own case and then in others, talking to others, that it was more than that. I also knew that people were having unnecessary general surgery. Well, and also your campaigning led to a full government inquiry. We have a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care say,

and I'll let you come back in on this in just a moment, but the statement says patients of Ian Paterson were undoubtedly failed by the system that should have protected them. We apologise to all of those who suffered unnecessarily from his horrific malpractice. The Health and Social Care Secretary has been clear that the system must never let patients down like this again. We have accepted the majority of recommendations made by the independent inquiry

and are taking action to prevent future patients facing similar harm. This means it is now easier to raise concerns across all healthcare providers and for authorities to act swiftly in stopping patients from being harmed. Let me just read a couple more statements. A spokesperson for University Hosp's Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust, which merged with the Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust in 2018, say, the trust wholly condemns Paterson's actions and the inaction, culture, poor governance surrounding decisions made by Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust during that time. Too many patients received horrendous treatment at the hands of Paterson and we have endeavoured and continue to do our utmost to support them in

extremely distressing circumstances. And I mentioned a private health provider, Spire Healthcare earlier, there's a statement here which says, we apologise for the significant distress and harm suffered by patients who were treated by Ian Paterson in our hospitals. Spire has changed radically since 2011. Our culture, management and standards have been overhauled with safety and quality sitting at the heart of everything we do. Systems are in place which enable us to identify consultants whose practice could give rise to concern

and we are able to take action quickly to respond to those. Debbie Douglas, to come back to you, I know that you have stayed with what's happened to that government inquiry in terms of the findings. Are you satisfied? I mean, the government inquiry, the recommendations are great, but they're not implemented. And those inquiry recommendations came out in 2020. And we're still being, I have regular meetings with the Department of Health, potentially every, usually every six weeks, I would say. However, the pace of this change is totally inadequate.

You know, one of the recommendations of the government throughout, or they didn't accept, I would say, is that surgeons who harm patients should be suspended immediately. Now, it talks in the report about proven or shown to have harmed patients. So we're not talking about a witch hunt where we're getting rid of consultants. But in Patterson's case, in 1994, he cut through three vital organs in a lady that I shan't name, but she almost bled to death. And the point of that, in 1994, he was shown to lie about the reason for that injury and what happened to her. He basically said it was an equipment malfunction.

So that shows then his traits. 2003, he was reported to an audience. Yes, and that's the concern, isn't it? Well, you are staying with us, Debbie. Let's talk again if we can. Debbie Douglas, thank you. Mr Herman Ingle, the whistleblower there, thank you very much to you.

And I should say that documentary is on ITV at 10.20 this Sunday, on Sunday, as I say, on ITV1. Thanks for your company this morning. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Uncanny is back.

The hit paranormal podcast returns with a summer special that will chill you to the bone it was a real dream holiday really the family trip of a lifetime becomes the holiday from hell whoever was in that room wanted to do us harm they wanted to frighten us the uncanny summer special out now what do you think was in that house six very frightened and they weren't afraid of us. The Uncanny Summer Special. Out now. What do you think was in that house? Six very frightened tourists and something else that didn't want us there. Subscribe to Uncanny on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.