Woman's Hour - Sarah Brown sings Mahalia Jackson, Performative activism, Over-exercising

Episode Date: January 31, 2022

Nikki da Costa is former director of legislative affairs at No 10. She has a piece in the Times this morning saying that 'No 10 failed us when we needed our leaders most'. Nikki joins Emma for an exclusive broadcast interview.Sarah Brown has worked with some of the biggest names in the music industry. She grew up singing gospel in a Pentecostal church, which first inspired her love of Mahalia Jackson’s music. To mark the 50th anniversary of Mahalia’s death, Sarah has released an album in tribute to her heroine.Last week Mars Wrigley announced a rebranding of the iconic M&M mascots. The green M&M character will be losing her high heels to be replaced with sneakers. We ask whether this kind of ‘activism branding’ leads to any significant change? Lee Edwards is a Professor of Strategic Communication and Public Engagement at the London School of Economics and Political Science. Carly Lewis-Oduntan is a freelance features writer.Following allegations of abuse against footballer Mason Greenwood posted first on social media, Women's Aid CEO Farah Nazeer joins Emma to discuss the ramifications of making allegations on social media before going to police? Regular exercise is something we all know can help your mental health and reduce your stress levels. But is there a point when it becomes unhealthy? The mental health charity Mind is concerned people may be getting overly reliant on exercise and are urging ‘exercise addicts’ to build in rest days. Hayley Jarvis, Mind’s Head of Physical Activity and 21 year old Catherine join Emma.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucina Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. And we find ourselves at the foothills of another week. And on this Monday morning, as we face it together, I want to know what it is that rouses you, that gets you out of yourself when you're having a hard time or you just need to shake things up. What do you do? For one of my guests today, the vocalist Sarah Brown, it is singing. While she has worked with some of the biggest names in the music industry, from Mick Hucknall to Stevie Wonder,

she's now stepping to the front of the stage, releasing her own album based on the American gospel legend Mahalia Jackson and her music 50 years on from her death, with Sarah having grown up here in the UK, attending Pentecostal church. She is going to talk more to me later in the programme as well as perform for us. But when she walked into our Woman's Hour office this morning, I asked her for a line that makes her walk a little taller, feel a little better,

and if she wouldn't mind sharing it with us now. Move on up a little better and if she wouldn't mind sharing it with us now. Move on up a little higher, yeah, gonna meet the old man Daniel. Oh, love it. That is a way to start our Monday morning. Here on Woman's Eye, I don't know what it is. Sarah, we'll talk to you very shortly. Looking forward to it. That is Move On Up from Mahalia Jackson's repertoire. Much more of that to come. But let that flow through you. Does singing release you? Are you part of a choir? Do you sing alone? Are you in the shower with it? What does it do for you? Has it got you through some really tough times or is it something else? I mean, I'm thinking about starting to do some, I don't know, freeform dancing, just something to move, not with choreography, just to get moving. I've said this before, but I'm going to try and do it. This is the year. What about you?

Tell us here at Woman's Hour. Text me 84844. That's the number you need. Text will be charged to your standard message rate. Do check for those costs on social media at at BBC Women's Hour is what you need, or email us through our website. Also on today's programme, as Mason Greenwood, the Manchester United striker, is arrested on suspicion of rape and assault after a woman posted allegations on social media,

he will not be returning to the club to train or play matches until further notice. He has not responded to those allegations. What are the ramifications of making such allegations on social media before going to the police or any authorities? All that to come. But first, it's being reported, according to a new poll, that less than a third of voters trust the government to do the right thing after the Downing Street party scandal. That's according to a survey out today. And as we await this civil servant Sue Gray's report into so-called partygate,

a former government advisor is breaking her silence on the matter. Nikki da Costa is the former director of legislative affairs at Number 10. She served first under Theresa May and then Boris Johnson until September 2021, four months or so ago. Nikki's written a piece in The Times newspaper this morning saying that number 10 failed us when we needed our leaders most. Last year, during lockdown, she argued from her position for the creation of bereavement support bubbles for those who had lost close family, suffered miscarriage, the stillbirth of a child or neonatal death.

But she says this idea was rejected because of a concern that it would send the wrong message to the public, that expanding support bubbles would signal everyone could relax their guard. Nikki da Costa joins me now for her first broadcast interview on this subject and her views based on the fact that she's worked in Number 10 and probably knows quite a lot of people who are going to be implicated or certainly concerned about this at the moment. Nikki da Costa, good morning. Good morning.

Why did you want to talk about this now? Because I know you've been focused on some other issues that concern you politically, but what about this? For me, it's taken a long time before I thought I should say anything. I've had views and that has been, you know, the views that you see expressed in that article are the views I've held for some time. But I've wanted to preserve the space for official response. And because as a former advisor, I don't think it is my role to be speaking out. And yet, when it comes down to how politics is conducted, and how number 10 engages with the public, I think it is really important to think about the message that's promoted. And you are left wanting it seems you are disappointed.

I am. And I think here we have to distinguish between there is a false distinction, I think, that is being made by Downing Street or by allies of Downing Street, where they sort of want to now push the parties into the past. And yet there's a failing on two levels here. There's one in terms of these parties that have taken place against the rules at different stages. And there's secondly, the handling of that the communication and very early on what should have happened the first time something came to light there should have been a discussion around the table with the prime minister where it the you know comms 101 get out there say what's happened apologize and move on and in that conversation there will be people around that table who knew about other things other parties or other events.

And they should have probably thought to themselves, even though they were probably squirming inside, they should have probably said, boss, I know you're not going to like hearing this, but there's something else. And from that, there should have been an approach whereby an audit was done and they could have come out and said, look, this is what's happened. But what's happened is it's been outsourced. The moral responsibility for that response has been outsourced to Sue Gray. And that's not a good thing for number 10. You know, when you say apologise and then move on, of course, if there's been the breaking of the rules, there wouldn't have been a move on situation expected by members of the general public or some of them.

No, and there should be consequences. You know, I'm very struck that the only person that has resigned so far is the person didn't attend a party, which is Allegra Stratton. And we heard in her words how much it mattered to her what the public perceived, you know, and what they would take away from that. And yet there are other people implicated. And I think one of the things here is that what Allegra does, when you resign, as I have experienced before, you immediately do not have any salary. So it's a bold move, because you are taking a fiscal, you know, financial hit, but it's also the right thing to do.

And I think that a lot of people will have thought, do you know what, I should probably resign, but I may not have. And you get all these sort of justification for why nobody's taken any action. And that doesn't sit well with me. What do you think should happen? What should be the ramifications? I think we have to wait for the detail. One of the problems here is that I am actually receiving these stories in the same way as the public because I was on maternity leave for much of the period that this happened. And for those events, for example, these two leaving dues that came to light, I was actually rather naive. I always wondered why wasn't there a leaving due

for James Slack? Now I know, and I feel rather naive about that. So I don't know the full facts, and I am in a position of needing to see the Sue Gray report. But I think that there needs to be two things. One, that there needs to be responsibility for the events that happened. And two, the culture in number 10 needs to change. I've been challenging that for the last year. It's, you know, I started to be very much the odd one out. And I think the Prime Minister needs to understand. You know, last week, I'm just minded to mention that somebody who had been the deputy chief of staff to David Cameron joined us, Baroness Kate Fall.

And she did talk about more women needing to be in posts, not necessarily because women always get it right, but there is a different dynamic. What do you make of that? I think there's a I think, first of all, just to come back to the COVID policymaking. I think more women in number 10 is important because it was the women, for example, say, look at what we're doing. You know, yes, we're trying to save lives, but life has to be also worth living. You know, when you say close the playgrounds, do you know what you're depriving children of? You know, they haven't got the schools at the moment. They are limited in the exercise. Do you know what you're doing when you say only two adults, you know, two people can meet and you're counting a baby and you have a young mum with a baby and she can't meet another adult.

So do you think the playgrounds would have stayed open if there'd been more women in key positions? Possibly in that first lockdown, they stayed open in the 2021 lockdown. And that was because women were making the case. There were men involved in this as well. But it was within the political operation in number 10. It was the were making the case. There were men involved in this as well, but it was within the political operation in Number 10, it was the women making the fight. For that particular opening? And other softening around the edges.

And you were particularly also aggrieved about the lack of bereavement bubbles permitted in that first lockdown. Not in the first. I mean, again, I wasn't there for the first. Sorry, this is the next one. In the roadmap. So, you know, when we went in in Christmas 2021, you could see the situation.

But as things started to ease and we were looking at the roadmap, you know, maybe I lack the ruthlessness. Maybe, you know, I, you know, it's quite possible and there'll be a school of thought that says, you know, you just need to be really hard on people. But I thought, you know, that we could trust the public and could make the argument. Look, I know you all want to meet up with friends and family, there's a particular cohort that have really suffered in the last six months, and those that

have lost loved ones that are close to them. And we think that if there is any slack here, that we should try and get these people to have more contact sooner. I think that argument could have been made because the public behaved in an exemplary fashion during the lockdown in response to these regulations. And that's why, you know, when I heard a Conservative MP last Monday say everyone broke the rules, I don't believe that's the case. The statistics didn't bear that out. What we saw in number 10 didn't bear that out. And therefore, it's wrong to be saying that that is an excuse for what happened in number 10. I'm just seeing our BBC political editor, Laura Koonsberg, said there's been a lot of last minute changes subject to moving around again. But as things stand, it does seem like the Sue Gray report will go to number 10 later this morning.

It's not quite the report people were going to be expecting because of the Met Police involvement. But if that report does show and the subsequent investigation does show that the Prime Minister knew, especially that May 2020 gathering, I recognise when you were not there on maternity leave, but that he knew that there was a gathering and it was a party and all these details that have come to fruition. Do you think his position is untenable?

I'm afraid I don't think that the leadership of the party and the position of the prime minister is one for me. I was a former advisor to two prime ministers and that's not appropriate for me to be commenting on. Would you have felt comfortable, though, working for somebody who broke the rules? I think my comments today stand for that. You know, I would have been, you know, I'm the difficult person that would be, you know, pushing people internally. And I know that that can be uncomfortable. So I would certainly have been making my views felt. It's just, I suppose, looking at what you've written today and hearing what you've just said as well. You said you returned from maternity leave and number 10 was different. You'd been extremely lonely. You talked, discussed about how, you know, you'd drive

groceries to your grandmother living on her own. And you then get back to number 10 and it's completely different. And I suppose it's that difference I'm trying to understand between the corridors of power and how people were living their lives. Were you disappointed by how different it was? Were you dismayed? No, I think, and this is why I think it's so wrong how this has been handled, because in the lack of leadership, it is chucking the entirety of Number 10 under a bus in any way

and nullifying the extreme efforts that many did. So, you know, hearing from people that were there at the time, despite personal anxiety, they were said, you know, look, you've got to come into the office. There were no masks. There were no screens. They were just meant to get on with it. They all got ill, as we saw the prime minister got ill. That just went through the building.

They cut themselves off. And, you know, somebody said to me recently, you know, even in normal times, we place great emphasis on duty to the prime minister in the country. And that's the kind of shield that you need to justify why you abandon every single family commitment, why you never see friends, why you do it because you think it's the right thing to do. And that's what the same approach for the pandemic. And all of that has been obscured by the handling of what happened, because the majority of the what happened, you know, during that period was just sheer hard work. And so in terms of why I say surprise, it's because, you know, I was experiencing the pandemic and the communications campaign as a civilian,

and I saw the impact and the loneliness and then you come to number 10 where everyone has had to just get on with work and so the lives haven't changed but that can mean that you don't necessarily know at an emotional level what you have asked of people. But I suppose what while you say you know it's hard work people are working you shouldn't overlook that and and that is an important point to make at same time, there were parties going on. It appears to be that there were some, yes. I'm afraid, you know, I don't know. And I, again... So when you say this has been outsourced, the leadership has been outsourced, what are you looking for now from Boris Johnson and those around him? What do you want?

At the very least, I think there needs to be cultural change in number 10, which is based on moral responsibility, a building of a team back together, a setting of values and ethics. You know, the number 10 that I knew in 2017 no longer exists, where people are, for example, if you challenge or you flag that there's an issue that you'll be supported rather than pushed to one side, because I'm sure that there will have been juniors who will have been flagging things and said, do you know what, I'm not sure this handling is right. And I bet that they were probably told to be quiet. And in terms of just going back to what you said about women and their greater role in this, it has been described as a sort of frat boy collective. You know, men just buying barrels of Malbec and not necessarily obeying the rules. I mean, I recognise some of these things are generalisations themselves, but there is concern from some familiar with this about the culture, which is what you're speaking to. What's your view of that?

I think it's accurate in many ways. So does that lead, why has the Prime Minister ended up with that culture, would you say? Is that because he has issues with including women or what do you make, why do you make it out that it's ended up with that culture would you say is that because he has issues with with including women or what do you make why do you make it out that it's ended up like that because of course you're talking about leadership i i can sense that probably listeners will probably feel nikki say it you know why why are you prevaricating and that's partly to try you know it's not a great thing to be calling out former colleagues and you know one of the things i observed which was

really interesting when i went into number 10 under Theresa May, is that actually a prime minister is often a prisoner of inner office. That's the name of the room in which his office is. And, you know, they are shuttled from meeting to meeting. They don't have a lot of control over their diary. And they are actually pretty remote from what's going on in the rest of the building. And that is very true. So who is responsible for a sexist frat boy environment that surrounds Boris Johnson? If it's not Boris Johnson, genuinely? The chief of staff.

And who's that at the moment? Dan Rosenfield. And should he go? I'm not known as the greatest supporter, so I don't feel I can give a balanced view on that. Well, of course, we would welcome him to come on Woman's Hour any time to respond to that and that description. But Nikki da Costa, thank you very much for painting a picture. People don't know what it's like. They don't know what it's like to work there.

And the corridors of power is a phrase I use a lot and people want to hear about it and we try and unveil that. Thank you for your time. Former Director of Legislative Affairs at Number 10 and of course if you wish to have your say on that as we do expect that Sue Gray report or some form of it to be published or at least delivered I should say to the Prime Minister's office today

whether we'll get sight of it as journalists or thereafter we'll find out but of course you'll be the first to hear about it if we do. Your messages I have to say have been coming in about what it is that takes you out of yourself. Some lovely messages, a lot linked to music and a few others as well. Linda says, I listen to music, certainly Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, no feeling, no down feeling, feeling down can survive.

Thank you for that, Linda. Lizzie says, I sing all things bright and beautiful to a group of Highland cows every day in Scotland. What a vision. I love that. Another one here. Whistling and cooking often simultaneously get me through, says Jenny, listening. Good morning in Scarborough, North York. Due to ME, I became unable to sing. Even a conversation shattered me, but I'm slowly improving.

After three years and I found myself spontaneously singing along to the radio the other day, I was delighted. And although it wore me out, I see it as a marker of my recovery. Fingers crossed for dancing next, says Joanne. Well, we're having this conversation because of my next guest, Sarah Brown, a vocalist who has worked with some of the biggest names in the music industry. Mick Hucknall, Brian Furry, Duran Duran, Stevie Wonder, and currently performing with Jim Curran, Simple Minds.

But now she's stepping to the front of the stage releasing her own album based on the American gospel singer the legend Mahalia Jackson and her music 50 years on from her death. Sarah grew up singing gospel in a Pentecostal church in the UK which first inspired her love of Jackson's music. Sarah now I'm going to actually talk to you having had a blast of your beautiful voice just before. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. What was it like when you, can you first remember being involved at church and hearing some of that gospel music? Absolutely, Ken. It was visually as it was audially. These, I call them big black mamas who were wearing, you know, they looked like Audrey Hepburn. And they sang a song that was so moving. You know, the harmonies that would come out of these women that were full of hope.

You know, this was the Windrush generation. And for many of them, they came into this country, they weren't Christians, they weren't religious. But because their struggle was so difficult, they found comfort in church and in a type of church that would have the bass guitar, the rhythm guitar, the Hammond organ, the piano, the drum. It was a rock and roll session and it was proper hardcore music that lifted the soul. So these women looked as if they were going to a wedding. You know, the shoes would match their gloves. They had stockings on, two-piece suits, the hat. You know, they looked amazing. And they would get together, congregate and sing these hymns with such gusto and with such flame. If they left there unhappy, it was because they had

no blood in them. Really? Just at all? Absolutely. And of course, as a child, as young as I can remember, you know, my mother would drag me along to church, myself and my brothers and sisters. We had no choice. But I actually didn't mind because, as I said, the music was infectious. It was incredible. I was quite a volatile. I was I was raised in a volatile home. And so I was a fearful child. And I found that when I was at church singing, I forgot all about that fear. I would forget all, you know, is my dad going to be in a good mood when I get home? Is he going to hit mum? Is he going to hit my brother? What kind of, you know, that fear that took me as a child wasn't there when I was singing these songs.

And when I was listening to these beautiful Rubenesque women. Yes, it's such a picture. You've made it. I wish I'd been there. I wish I'd seen it. It was really, it was like a sweetie shop, seriously. You know, these women, they were stylishly dressed. They were very proud.

They came to this country to make money to go back to wherever they had come from, you know, in the Caribbean. And I was going to say, alongside the church, that you started listening to Mahalia's music. Yes. Was that at home? I was listening to Mahalia from home. My sister, one of my eldest sisters, Pauline, was an avid fan of Mahalia Jackson.

And so she had albums that she would play all the time. And as young as I can remember, I was singing along to Mahalia Jackson. Because for people who don't know anything about Mahalia, I mean, what should they know about her? They need to know that Mahalia was born into poverty, but she had a determination and a grit that enabled her to achieve her dream. She lost her mother at the age of five. She was brought up by her grandmother in Louisiana by the riverside and with 13 other children. So she didn't have a silver spoon in her mouth.

And for sure, her path was mapped out. She was going to be a nanny to these rich families. She was going to cook lovely food and gravy for these rich families. That was all she was allowed to dream about. But what you need to know, to answer your question, Mahalia Jackson had a determination. She had that fire, that flame in her that said, I am on my way. I am going to make it. Whether I'm poor, whether my mother will come, whether my father will come, I am going to make it.

And so she used her voice to take her out of poverty. Mahalia Jackson sold 22 million albums in her lifetime. Now, we are going way back. You know, she didn't have the support that many bands today have. She had her grit and her belief. She was the type of woman where the record companies were saying to her, you can be as big as Ella Fitzgerald. You can be as big as Billie Holiday. You can be as big as Bessie Smith. She said, no, I'm going to sing gospel and I'm not going to refrain from that. So I'm just trying to give you a picture of what Mahalia Jackson was like as a person, as a woman, she had such strength. You know, it was a time where women

were seen and not particularly heard. No, and we should say, you know, by the age of sort of 16, 18, she moved to Chicago. That's right. Pursuing this gospel career, singing on street corners. Yes. All these different churches. And she also joined ranks with Martin Luther King, opening some of his rallies.

I forgot to say, absolutely. Mahalia Jackson was the vocal, the musical voice for the campaigns for Martin Luther King. And so if you didn't know her through church, people were then getting to know her outside of the church. And actually it was because of that, I would say, that she then went on to sing at Carnegie Hall. She blew these people away.

She came to Europe and sang at jazz festivals over here, just with a piano and organ. And she bought that rock and roll. She bought that blues. She bought the conviction. She bought the passion and the flame You've got to it now. And I think it's only right that we get to hear a bit of this. And you very kindly agreed to sing. So you're going to sing for us today from the album. The album's called Sarah Brown Sings Mahalia Jackson. And what are you going to sing for us? I'm going to sing I'm On My Way. It's the first track from the album that I've released out for everyone just to listen to tap their feet, because we've come out of a pandemic. You know, for so many people, they haven't been able to go back to work. Some women have died through domestic violence. You know, I'm a true advocate of this.

And so I'm on my way is a song that's saying whether my mother will come, whether my brother will come, whether my sister agrees, I am going where I'm going. Whether my late husband agrees or not, I'm going. Well, I am not going to stop you from going towards the other microphone. I think we've got some other headphones for you there. This is such a treat. Because I should say, of course, as you'll know, Sarah, and many of our listeners are pointing out, people weren't allowed to sing during lockdown and be together in the way that they were. So let me introduce Sarah Brown. As she just said, she's going to be singing.

I'm on my way from her new album. Sarah Brown sings Mahalia Jackson. Thank you. If you don't go, don't enter me If you don't go Don't enter me I'm on my way I'm on my way Yay!

Yay! Woo! Woo! Sarah Brown, can you come in every day? Singing, I'm on my way. From her new album, Sarah Brown Sings Mahalia Jackson. And I've got to say, for the bit where she wasn't singing, there was some extremely good dancing going on.

So thank you so much. Thank you, Emma, for having me. What a lovely, wonderful way to rouse ourselves. And I have to say, some music to our ears is some of your messages this morning. Beth in North Wales says, good morning. It's always music and dancing for me just at home in the kitchen that lifts me up if I'm having an off day and I really don't feel like facing the day. I know a little effort and putting a track on will work for me if it gets me moving, singing along and feeling better. I've had bouts of anxiety and depression over a number of years and music has helped me hugely. Big kiss at the end of

that message. Thank you for a lovely show, Beth in North Wales. Good morning to you. I am also a fellow kitchen disco-er, if we can describe it as that. Keep those messages coming in. They're extremely lovely to read this morning. And also another one just talking about swimming in the Highgate men's pond. Done it today, says Robin. Thank you very much. And I think you're telling me it's four degrees there. Is that what you're saying? I think it is. I've not had a temperature come through on this text message console yet before. Thank you for that. Keep those messages coming in. Now, you may have noticed two big companies have recently announced a redesign in their branding in an aim to appear more progressive. Mars, the maker of M&Ms, has launched a new look for the chocolate characters.

The green M&M apparently losing her stiletto boots in favour of trainers. The brown M&M wearing slightly lower heels than before. Meanwhile, a couple of days ago, it was announced Disney's Minnie Mouse will be swapping her iconic red polka dot dress for a navy blue and black trouser suit, or as Americans describe it, a pantsuit with a matching hair bow designed by Stella McCartney, something Disney is hoping will show it's a symbol of progress. But does any of this mean much to real life women? Lee Edwards, a professor of strategic communication and public engagement at the London School of Economics and Political Science. Good morning to you, Lee.

Morning. Thank you for joining us. I'm also going to be getting the views of Carly Lewis-O'Dunton, a freelance features writer. Carly, thank you for joining us today. Good morning. Good morning. Let's come to you, Lee, first of all,

just about what this is and how much we're seeing of it. Do you think it matters that brands are doing this or do you think we've got people who are savvy enough to say, I know why you're doing it and I don't think it matters at all to me well it I mean performative activism is a kind of um it's it's a strategy by brands that co-opts social justice causes like feminism or like black lives matter or mental health awareness to um turn them into commodities that they can sell and make money. But it's not always as black and white as that.

Some brands do this with genuine intent to be supportive of the cause, and some brands do it really with just a genuine intent to sell. At its worst, I think it strips those social causes of their often painful political and social histories and struggles and kind of empties those things out in order to put something onto a market. And I think that's when it becomes really a bit disingenuous. What do you make of this, Carly? I mean, if we talk about the Eminem character rebranding, if people, I don't know, had even remembered there were these characters, but let's just get your take.

Honestly, I didn't have much of a reaction when I first heard of it. I haven't paid any attention to Eminem's personalities or their robes over the years. I just eat the chocolate. So I thought, OK, it piqued my interest. I was like, let me have a look and see what this is. But when I saw it, I just kind of continued scrolling. I don't think it makes any difference either way. And Minnie Mouse?

I mean, again, I'm not saying you're a big fan, but I suppose it's just the whole idea, do we need Minnie Mouse in a trouser suit? Or what's the bigger message perhaps from this? Was anybody asking for this? Does the trouser suit denote progressiveness over what she was wearing before? I think in itself, that is kind of the beginning of a problem in itself.

So her wearing a dress in heels. Yes. You've written a bit about not necessarily this per se, but when brands are trying to say or certainly companies trying to attract people through their perceived good morals. Tell us a bit more about this, because this is part of a wider trend. Yeah, so I kind of likened it to woke fishing, which is a term that is kind of came from the dating world, where a person will pretend to be more progressive than they are to, you know, get with somebody that they like. But it's something that I've experienced in the corporate world where, you know, get with somebody that they like. But it's something that I've experienced in the corporate world where, you know, I've seen job adverts that will say, you know, we support flexible working

or we're very family friendly. And then when it comes time to ask in, you know, to shift hours around childcare or, you know, start a bit earlier and finish a bit later, it becomes an issue and it becomes a problem. And I think that once you, if you are using,

if you're trying to reel people in, pretending to be something that you're not, it's going to come undone when they begin working and they realise that, ah, you know, I've kind of been gooped here. So I think with the ads, it's kind of the same thing. And as Lee said, we've seen a lot of companies, you know, remember the black squares around Black Lives Matter.

But what does your actual workforce look like? What is going on behind the scenes? I think that if you are genuinely wanting to make changes, be honest about that. Let the public know that we do support this cause and this is what we want to look like in the future. But we've got some work to do to get there. I think that kind of helps people feel that the gestures are more sincere than just jumping on whatever the social justice movement of the moment is. Yes. And I suppose, Lee, in that respect, you know, what is the value of doing this if nothing is changing behind the scenes? I'm not saying about these particular organisations,

but is that a concern that you share? I mean, I think that I don't, I think we have to be measured in terms of what we can expect from brands. I completely agree with Carly. You know, if you have just a claim without any evidence of any real commitment that demonstrates that you're not just interested in your own kind of profit, but that you are prepared to sacrifice some things in order to you know support the cause um you know if it's just

empty uh then then it's meaningless really i think though one of the things that um i'm hesitating to say this but one of the things that i think stuff like the eminem gimmick and i think it is and the stella mccartney pantsuit can do is they can, they can make us talk about issues, even if only briefly. Brands are incredibly powerful. They make us lots of promises. They tell us that if we adopt them, if we, you know, adopt their values, then our lives are going to change. And if they're going to make those promises to us, they need to also demonstrate that they want to properly care about the things that we say we care about. Now, one of the ways that they can do that is it can make us talk about things. So what brand, you know, good brand

initiatives can do is they can change the ways that we think about, for example, women in society, they can change the ways that we, you know, relate to others in relation to that. But I think, you know, something like the Stella McCartney pantsuit, relate to others in relation to that. But I think, you know, something like the Stella McCartney pantsuit, Stella McCartney said that the pantsuit was going to be worn during Women's History Month. What does a pantsuit have to do with women's history? You know, how is that a sensible claim? That made no sense to me. So, but if it offers a window to have at least a chat, perhaps there's some merit in it from what you're saying, because obviously it's not new to talk about brands, certainly in the last few years, co-opting feminism and trying to talk about that and bring women along with that.

And I suppose it's just about how much influence do you see as a professor of strategic communication that having? I mean, do you think there has been good done, even if you roll your eyes at some of these, Lee? Yeah, and I think when, you know, when brands really commit to making change, both internally within their organisations, as Carly was saying, but also then in marketplaces. So for example, fashion brands that really commit to paying their workers, you know, decent wages to checking their supply chains in response to their customers' arguments that they're not doing enough, then that's usually a response to them claiming that they care. And then us saying, well, hang on, if you really care, do something about it in the way that you operate. And that can create, you know, real change. But I think that those two things in conjunction,

the conversations that we have that shift and then the practices that change in response to those conversations. Those two things go hand in hand. You can't really have one without the other. So the conversations have to change as well. Carly, just final thought from you. It's quite funny when you talk about the Eminem characters. I hadn't thought about them either, if I'm honest. There will be some people who very much invested, I suppose, in the green one or the brown one or whatever. But it is one of those things where people do still want their brands to change, even though actually you're usually just buying something from them. So if you already like the product, it's funny that we've attached these

emotions in some way, isn't it, Carly? Yeah. Yeah, I do think it is. And I guess that's some kind of marketing type of genius thing. But again, I was thinking about this. This might impact a younger girl or somebody much younger who loves M&Ms and does know a bit about the world of M&Ms and whatever that is. But for me as a woman in my 30s, and I think for a lot of older women, it's very much just a... I had no strong reaction either way.

Well, I have to say, having visited Minnie and Mickey in Disneyland, there was a lot of netting under that skirt. So, you know, the pantsuit certainly will look, or trouser suit. I can't say pantsuit. I'll just keep going with trouser suit. Maybe it will look a lot more practical, you're right, to a six-year-old girl holding the toy for the first time and thinking about it a bit differently.

Those soft bits of impact that brands have as well. It's very good to talk to you, Carly Lewis-Odunton and Lee Edwards there. Thank you for your take. We've got a question or a message rather here saying something you're missing

about advertising and brands. They're part of our culture and some of this is them recognising this and taking responsibility to represent women and other groups in un-stereotyped ways.

Well, it's a point we just came to. So thank you for that message. But in terms of your messages about what you're doing to take yourself out of yourself, it's amazing how many of us dance around the kitchen, says Kate in Cumbria. I wonder when kitchen designers will start to incorporate a disco glitter ball into kitchen design. Food for thought.

Another one here. Monday evenings is our She Choir at Leonard's on Sea. It brings joy, pleasure and giggles and it is so uplifting, says Mimi. Thank you. And many of you really enjoying hearing Sarah Brown sing this morning and remembering your own memories of Mahalia Jackson. So more messages coming in. been arrested on suspicion of rape and assault following allegations of abuse by a woman that went right across social media and were widely shared. Greater Manchester Police said it was made aware of social media images and videos posted by a woman reporting incidents of physical violence. He remains in custody for questioning and inquiries are ongoing. Manchester United earlier said the player would not return to training or matches until further notice. The club say they do not condone violence of any kind and has been made aware of the allegations on social media,

but would make no further comment until the facts have been established. And Nike, who've sponsored Mason Greenwood since he made his debut for United in 2019, have released a statement to say they're monitoring the situation. Quote, we are deeply concerned by the disturbing allegations and will continue to closely monitor the situation. Mason Greenwood has not responded to the allegations. The photographs, recordings and an audio note that were uploaded on social media have since been deleted. Due process will now follow on this allegation,

but I want to talk now in a more general way about the ramifications of making allegations on social media before going to the police. And this is something I discussed with the chief executive of Women's Aid, Farah Nazir, who I spoke to just before coming on air. And I asked her her reaction to a woman has experienced any form of domestic abuse, there should be a range of options for them, be it the police or the local authority or a women's service. And perhaps this is the route that the individual wants, perhaps it's not, but there should be a range of options for for for any given survivor.

I guess I guess what comes to mind is perhaps those options haven't worked for that individual. Perhaps that individual doesn't have confidence in those options. Perhaps that perhaps this has happened to that individual. Who knows? But the real the real issue for me and for us as an organisation is to ensure that when a survivor wants to talk about their experiences and needs that support and that help and wants to be believed that there are a range of options for them. Coming completely away from this case because we can't talk about the specifics we don't know the details here yet and I'm very mindful of that and also the fact that we aren't able, of course, to talk about the alleged victim. And we're also aware of the fact that the footballer hasn't made any comments in response to this yet. But I was just wondering, from what you've just said, that, you know, you say we don't know and there's a lot we don't know here. Would you advise other women to do this? Because unlike some of the other routes you mentioned, or other victims, I should say, doing this isn't private feel is right for them to, A, feel safe

and supported, and B, be believed. There are implications of any form of conversation with any party, you know, be it the police or the local authority or your GP or a women's organisation that, you know, you have to, you know, telling that story is hard in and of itself. Now, whether you choose to do that publicly for a variety of reasons, and I've gone through some of the reasons a person might feel to do that, that that's the right thing. I would always advise anyone who is experiencing domestic abuse to seek specialist support. So go to a women's organisation, call the Women's Aid Live chat or the Domestic Abuse Helpline. There are options out there that can help guide you to whatever might be the right option for you.

Have you seen an uptick in people doing this, specifically women? Well, I think social media is more prevalent. People are using it more for lots of different things now. And this is one of the experiences that women encounter very regularly, as we know, it's the most prevalent form of violence against women and girls in this country. So, yes, we are seeing an uplift in this. Now, whether that is as a result of this being a favoured mechanism or whether it's as a result of women not finding anywhere else to go. It's difficult to tell, but I think the important thing and the thing that we're not seeing right now happening, and we know this through all of last year, is those authorities should be the place where people feel safe, where women feel safe to go, feel supported and feel believed, be it the police or the criminal justice system. But these things are not yet in place.

We're not always comforted or secure to go to the police, to go to our GP, to ensure that we'll be believed. That's not the prevalent thing in society right now. So with that as your message or as part of your message, would you advise women to do this? I would urge every survivor to do what they think is right for themselves. There is not one way to tell your story. There's not one way to tell your story. And every survivor has to do what she feels is right for her and her situation and her children if she has them. I think there is a reality whereby, you know,

if someone does do something quite public, we would want to ensure that they are supported through that and they can access the various types of support. Ditto, if somebody chooses not to do something public, having the right kinds of support is also really important um you know and that's you know psychological support that's ensuring that you're safe at women's aid we know that the most dangerous time for a woman and indeed her children is when she's leaving an abusive relationship that's when perpetrators are seeking to retain that control over that individual and can become more and more extreme.

So we always we always encourage women to really think about, you know, their safety when they're doing this and how they have those conversations and with whom they have those conversations. But those conversations need to be had to ensure that women can can can leave abusive relationships. If there is an uptick, as you say, in social media, perhaps being one of these mechanisms now by which those who are accusing abuse come forward and speak about it in some way. I just wanted to say to you the words of Ruth Davidson, who leads Refuge, another charity lots of our listeners will be aware of. And she said, in light of this case,

the fact that a woman has felt she's had to record what appears to be sexual abuse shows the level of evidence women are expected to obtain in order to be believed. Again, not speaking about the specifics of this case, but what do you have to say about that? I think she's absolutely right. I mean, the levels of evidence that women have to produce to demonstrate domestic abuse is astounding. You know, often they won't come forward. They won't speak because, you know, the reality of

not being believed is very, very real. And even when you do have these kinds of situations, the victim blaming that happens and victim shaming, you know, what's wrong with her? Well, surely that was in a context of a relationship. We don't know. We don't know what really happened. There are always two sides to a story. No, abuse is abuse. I think it is worth noting at this point, though, that there will be people saying they do still want things to go through those channels with regards to the police, with regards to evidence being tested, because they don't feel comfortable about people being able to go online and make accusations wherever they want or however they want. What do you say to those people who feel uncomfortable about that? I think it's a system at large. We're not currently in a context where domestic abuse is prioritised, properly funded, is at the top of people's agenda and at the top of authorities' agenda.

So, you know, if women, if people are resorting to other mechanisms, what that should tell us is maybe the systems that are supposed to work, that are supposed to be in place, that are supposed to support women, and we've seen the failings last year, you know, in unedifying technical, and we've seen how horribleings last year you know in in in you know in unedifying technical

and we've seen how horrible and how horrendous it is so maybe women feel they need to resort to other mechanisms you know it's not it's not for us to judge as an organization on what on what a survivor needs to do to keep herself safe but we can categorically say that you know we hear from survivors all the time that when they speak to the police they are not believed they are not supported when they speak to you know their local authorities they are not believed they're not supported when they go to um you know when they when they reach out it is very very difficult for them and until we're able to shift our society to you know the first thing is that actually you listen you believe, you support, and then you do

the rest of it. Then you test the evidence. Then you go through the system. The criminal justice system is very, very difficult and very, very traumatising for women and children who have experienced domestic abuse. Until those systems work better, you know, we can expect survivors to do what they feel they need to. Thank you very much to the Chief Executive of Women's Aid, Farah Nazir, who I spoke to just before coming on air. And it's worth repeating, we were talking in that incident about broader cases and Farah's experience as the Chief Executive of Women's Aid in this area and trends that she is seeing.

Well, regular exercise is something we all know can help your mental health and reduce stress levels and i have to say certainly by going by what you're saying on our messages this morning so many of you are dancing and even if it's just in your kitchen that's what is is helping you through nicola i've got to say to you special kudos respect my disco glitter ball in my kitchen it's been up for over a year i know i should know better in my mid-50s but it always brings a smile to my face well it's just brought a smile to mine. I don't think you should know better at all. I think we should be doing what you're doing.

But if you're thinking about exercise and it's beyond perhaps, you know, a few minutes here, a few minutes there, and it's actually to the point where you are doing badly without it, and there perhaps is a point where it becomes unhealthy, how do you know where that point is? And should we spend some time thinking about that? Well, the mental health charity Mind is concerned people may be getting over-reliant on exercise and are urging exercise addicts to build in rest days. Hayley Jarvis is Mind's head of physical activity and also 21-year-old Catherine's on the line who said she didn't realise the effect exercise was having on her well-being before it was too late. Catherine,

I thought I'd start with you. Good morning. Morning. Thank you for joining us today. And what was it for you that started you exercising in the first place and how much were you doing it? Yeah, so I think for me, I've always struggled with having an eating disorder. And when I really lacked control over how much time I could spend during my days when I was put on furlough I had a lot of time and I used exercise as a means to sort of control what I couldn't control which was being off of work and I think I don't want to go into how much I did it because I don't think that's actually important and I think that everyone has a very personal amount of exercise that they do.

But I think when you go over your personal amount and you start setting unlimited boundaries on how much exercise you're doing, forcing yourself to almost go against what your body is telling you to do, I think that's when you know you're doing too much. And I knew that. I think that's a really important point, because everyone's got different thresholds and they've got different goals going on in their mind. I suppose I was trying to get an understanding of when you realised perhaps there was a problem. Yeah, I realised there was a problem when I was starting to sort of withdraw from social situations and make excuses to be able to exercise.

And I almost realised that I was doing it in secret as well. And I didn't want to tell people where I was almost realized that I was doing it in secret as well and I didn't want to tell people where I was going or what I was doing I just wanted to sort of walk away what I was doing and yeah I found I found it really hard to talk about the experiences that I had because we're sort of in a society that doesn't really treat exercise as a problem that you can overdo exercise. And I think that's when I realised I had a problem because I didn't want to talk about it. Who did you talk to, though? Was there a moment where you did confide? Yeah, I've always been really, really close to my mum and she's always been right beside me throughout my whole journey with my eating disorder so I really confided in her

and I wrote her a letter because I can actually vocalize like what I was experiencing so I wrote her a very personal letter and we sort of went from there. And how is it now? Yeah I mean I'm still managing my exercise experiences right now it's still very much something I have to sort of keep intact and what I mean by that is that I have to set myself like maximum amounts of exercise that I can do um instead of the making the minimums in my head so I have to say like I can only do this amount each day um I'm still working on reducing that but yeah we're getting there thank you well I wanted to it's always good to check in on how somebody's doing now and and where they're at at the moment we're talking to them thank you for talking to us and and sharing some of your experience this morning that's katherine let

me bring in hayley from the charity mind at this point what hayley what katherine excuse me was saying there is we don't think about exercise like this because of course so much of the focus is trying to get people to move and and healthier, certainly in January as well. What are the signs of over-exercising? I think you've raised a really good point there. For most of us, aren't active enough and that's a problem. But for some of us, it can become too much. And it is so personal and we are all so different.

But what we're talking about is when we're exercising too long or too intensely without enough rest so when people are are exercising and they can't stop exercising without feeling distressed or worried about it when it's impacting on their their job their relationships I think Catherine talked about doing it in secret when you're making excuses you're doing it when you're unwell when you're injured several times a day when it almost becomes your identity and it's sort of the thing that you need to do and you feel compelled to do it that's when it almost becomes your identity and it's sort of the thing that you need to do and you feel compelled to do it that's when it's becoming a problem and you need to really get help and support for it and what do you think should be the support there and whose responsibility

is it i mean beyond the person hopefully seeing or feeling that something's not quite right what are you calling for yeah i think i think it's really important to um think that we've all got something to do here particularly um exercise professionals and sports coaches so firstly making sure we we're exercising for the right reason so making sure it's fun people are empowered they're doing it because um they want to feel good but also educating people about the benefits of rest and the need for a varied routine so the fact that we need to build in um strength work we need to build in stretching as well as cardiovascular and and we all need a rest day so i think that's something we all can do and what really resonates in this really important piece of work was um one of the experts by

experience said to me well there's no aa for over exercising or exercising addiction and actually we've really welcomed the conversation we've been reached out by so many people and people working in mental health that have kind of said to us you know it's a bit of a taboo topic so I think you know as individuals we can sort of check in with ourselves but also also as a sector and you know look out for our friends and family if we're worried about someone just checking in and you know asking them why they're exercising and trying to sort of start those conversations is really important. I mean also the pandemic in terms of the role the pandemic has played I'm very mindful of what Catherine

just said about being put on furlough have do you think there's been a change there? Oh completely we've certainly seen more instances of people over exercising during the pandemic on one hand it's the pandemic has heightened the conversation about how being active is good for us it was one of the only reasons we could leave our house during the lockdowns and and that was a positive narrative but for some people we we heard of people um going out for longer and longer and longer and we saw that other coping strategies either went online or closed people weren't seeing their friends and family so you didn't have that same level of accountability somebody whether that's your you know your mum or your sister or someone in the gym might say oh I'm a bit worried you seem to be you know you seem to

be overdoing it that wasn't happening so certainly we've we've seen more people during the pandemic but also things like social media I mean social media is so positive for us but also that the narrative around stronger leaner faster more and more and more and actually it's really important that people are encouraging rest as well to make sure that we we don't over injure our minds or our bodies hayley jarvis minds head of physical activity thank you and of course thank you to catherine there talking about her own experience of this, which always helps us understand a little bit more if you are able to come onto the radio and talk. So many messages. Just let me leave this one with you. I've sung all my life. Hello. Next to my dad in church, a choir at school, my own church in Bradford for the last 45 years.

And the stay at home choir during the pandemic was an absolute lifesaver. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.