Woman's Hour - Sarah Everard anniversary, The Traitors' Harriet Tyce, Geniuses

Episode Date: March 3, 2026

Five years ago, Sarah Everard was abducted, raped and murdered by a Metropolitan Police officer. It was the catalyst for an outpouring of grief and anger about the safety of women. It also led to a number of reviews which documented a toxic culture at the Met Police and other forces, highlighting the lack of trust by women in the force. Since then, reforms have been instituted to try and rebuild confidence and eradicate misogyny. We discuss what has changed in the five years since with BBC Correspondent Sima Kotecha and Ellie Butt, Head of Policy and Public Affairs at Refuge. Barrister turned bestselling crime author and recent star of The Traitors, Harriet Tyce joins Nuala to talk about her latest novel, Witch Trial. Harriet reflects on how motherhood was the impetus for her career change, how her knowledge of the legal system inspires her work and her experience as a ‘Faithful’ on the hit BBC TV series. An Oscar-nominated new documentary explores the impact school shootings in the US can have on the families that are left behind in a unique and moving way. All The Empty Rooms follows journalist Steve Hartman’s seven-year project documenting the bedrooms of some of the children who’ve been killed. The Netflix film features Gloria Cazares and Jada Scruggs, two American mothers who each lost their nine-year-old daughters in separate incidents in 2022 and 2023. Gloria and Jada talk to Nuala about their decision to let a documentary film crew into the bedrooms they preserve just as their daughters, Hallie Scruggs and Jackie Cazares, left them, along with director Joshua Seftel. Why do women seem more reluctant to shout about their intelligence and potential genius? New Channel 4 quiz Secret Genius has highlighted a trend of women underplaying their abilities that is backed up by Mensa data. The gender breakdown of applications to the world’s largest and oldest high-IQ society is around two-thirds men to one-third women. To discuss this, Nuala is joined by Dr Sonja Falck, a psychotherapist and author, and Hajar Woodland, who recently appeared as a contestant on the Channel 4 show. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower.

Well, we've got six new episodes. for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Woman's Hour. Hello and welcome to the programme.

Five years ago, Sarah Everard was abducted, raped and murdered by a serving metropolitan police officer. And it was the catalyst for an outpouring of grief and anger about the safety of women. It also led to a number of reviews which documented a toxic culture at the Met Police and also other forces and exposed the lack of trust in the police by women. Since then, reforms have tried to rebuild confidence. confidence and eradicate misogyny. Yet today, the commissioner of the Metropolitan Police has said he understands why some women still do not trust the force.

During this time, so many of you have told Women's Hour your distressing stories about your experiences. But I want to know, where are you today when it comes to trusting the police? What have you seen improve? And where do you think there is work still needs to be done? You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website.

For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 0-3700, 100444. Also today, Harriet Tice, barrister, crime writer, faithful. Yes, you might know Harriet from The Traitors. We're going to talk about her turn on the hit reality show and also hear about her new book, Witch Trial. Plus, are you a genius? Do you let others know? We're going to discuss why so many women underestimate and downplay their intellectual ability.

And all the empty rooms. It is a beautiful and heartbreaking documentary. It speaks to parents about the untouched bedrooms of their children who are killed in US school shootings. It is now nominated for an Oscar. We will meet two of the mothers involved. But let me begin. This evening, a vigil will be taking place to mark. marked the fifth anniversary of the abduction, rape and murder of Sarah Everard.

The marketing assistant had been walking home in South London. The serving police officer, Wayne Cousins, was sentenced to a whole life term for her murder. You might remember in 2003, Baroness Casey's review of the Met revealed institutional racism, misogyny and homophobia and found hundreds of officers with misconduct allegations, including sexual offences that had not been dismissed. Sir Mark Rowley, the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, has said that 1,500 people have been rooted out, his words, since 2022,

and we're no longer working on the force. But he went on to say he understands why some women still do not trust the force. I'm joined by the BBC senior UK correspondent, Sima Ketecta. But first I'm going to turn to Ellie Butte, who's head of policy and public affairs at the charity refuge. Good to have both of you with us. Ellie, we are five years on, as I mentioned, from Sarah's death, and women are remembering her tonight at the vigil.

How do you see confidence in the police now from the women that you speak to? Good morning. We still see really low confidence amongst the women and girls that we support in the police force. We did some polling last year that found only 39% or 39% have little to no confidence in the police to handle violence against women and girls' offences.

and 25% said actually their confidence had reduced in the last year. So there's still a really, really big hill to climb. At refuge, we support survivors of domestic abuse across our services every day. And still only around 1 in 5 report the abuse that they experienced to the police. There's a really low confidence and low trust that still needs to be urgently addressed. And I suppose that explains as well some of the consequences. context, it is another incident that might occur, but then they're dealing with the police that they do not have the trust that you underline there, Ellie. I want to bring in Seema Ketecta.

Remind us a little, Seema, the background to this terrible incident and also the timeline of events that followed. Yeah, so Sarah Everard was on her way home in South London when she was handcuffed by Wayne Cousins, a off-duty metropolitan police officer. She, was in his car and then he drove her to Kent where he raped and murdered her. And as you said, Mueller at the top of the programme, this is a case that really struck a debate across the nation as to how women feel on the streets of Britain. Do they feel safe? Do they feel protected? Do they feel that the police is doing the job that it's supposed to do? And as you said, you know, some polls do suggest, as the lady from refuge just said, that confidence is incredibly low

among women in terms of policing. I've been speaking to women in recent days, in places across London. We spoke to several in South London, which is where Sarah Everard was abducted. And we did get a mixture of views with some women saying that they felt things had improved and that they felt the police was speaking a lot more about how women felt, and that made them feel a lot more comfortable. But we also heard, you know, the opposite view that some women, feel incredibly nervous, don't feel as if they're being protected, and, you know, don't walk

alone at night because they're worried about what happened to Sarah Everard could happen to them. You have been speaking to Sir Mark Rowley. What has he been telling you? Well, he says he understands why some women don't trust the force. He says that, you know, because there have been a series of ghastly cases, his words, involving officers, that is bound to affect how people feel. He told me that the circumstances of Sarah Everard's murder was so horrific that they would remain in people's minds for a long time and that was understandable. He acknowledged the incidents of damaged trust, but he said 1,500 people had been sacked in recent years, some because of inappropriate behaviour and just some data for you, you know, according to

the data published by the Met, 28 members of staff were dismissed for several. sexual misconduct over the last year, while another 39 officers would have been sacked if they had not resigned or retired. Now, he's saying that staff checks have been tightened and allegations of sexual abuse have been re-examined among some serving members of staff. But I think it's fair to say that people will ask, if all these people are being sacked, how many potential rogue officers remain? We know that an internal review by the force found that it had lowered vetting standards into the backgrounds of perspective and existing staff between 2013 and 2023. And just on Friday, lastly, an officer was sacked for serious sexual misconduct.

I want to bring a little off your interview. Seema, to our listeners, let's listen to Sir Mark. They can absolutely trust we're an organisation that's doing everything we can possibly do to double down on our integrity and be as strong as we possibly can do from the front door of the organisation where our vetting is much tougher than it was all the way through every step we take with allegations inside. Of course, no organisation of 40,000 or thousand people can be perfect, but you can be as determined to sustain the integrity of the organisation as possible,

and that's, I think, what we're doing now. There were, seem, a number of reviews following these incidences as well, recommendations. Do we know exactly how far they've been implemented? We don't know how far they've been implemented, but we can tell you that the Angeline inquiry that looked into Wayne Cousins, the man who murdered Sarah Everard, and how he was able to continue a career in the police, even though previous allegations against him had been made.

I mean, her inquiry into that was fairly scathing. She said the opportunities were missed. We also know that David Carrick, another predator, who was sacked in 2021 after pleading guilty to 49 charges, including 24 counts of rape. We know that an inquiry is ongoing into how he also was able to work in the Metropolitan Police. These cases have made a massive impact. They're names that people know. There are stories that people recognise.

Londoners are still talking about, even though they were several years ago. And I think from my conversation with the Commissioner, they are very much aware, Metropolitan Police of the impact these cases have had. The Commissioner said he understands that progress is going to be slow, that it's going to take time to rebuild that trust that has been so severely damaged. And we also know that panorama that recently aired had police officers making some misogynistic comments, again, conveying a potential attitude problem in the force that some critics would say is rife. I've spoken to serving metropolitan officers, women, who say that that misogyny is very much alive and kicking

and doesn't seem to have changed in recent years. And that is another aspect of it, the women serving within the force, as well as the women who are interacting with the force when they come with a crime, for example. One of the criticisms you mentioned there, the pace of change, did Sir Mark have anything to say about that

or a timeline of when you might see radical change or reform when it comes to the issue of misogyny? I don't think he would like to put a time frame on it, to be honest. I think his goal in that interview was to get across that he is adamant that change will happen and that he is working incredibly hard with his team to change the culture. What he said was that he wanted to bring the issue of violence against women and girls at the forefront of his force. He said in previous years it's been very much lower down the agenda in terms of priorities.

He said he wants it to be at the top of their priorities. He said they're doing various things, such as a V-100 scheme, which is where the 100 most dangerous predators in London are identified and police are keeping an eye on them and arresting them if they can for alleged offences. He said that that was something they wanted to make sure continue to happen. And they also said that he said he wants to change the culture internally within the force, recognising that there is some, there are some challenges there. As I said, you know, some women have told me that there is some misogyny, you know,

some of the kind of middle ranking officers, the banter that sometimes, you know, put forward by those officers can be offensive according to the female officers I've spoken to. And that really needs to change. And he said, you know, that is something they're working very hard on changing that internal culture. Because once that internal culture has changed, he believes that, you know, externally they're able to then do what is needed to catch those predators. I want to bring Ellie back in here. Sir Rowley mentioned that there are 1,500 police officers and staff

that are no longer working in the forest. Also mentioning it's 30,000 plus, for example, that are serving. Does that go far enough for you? It's certainly welcome, but it doesn't go far enough. As Seymocetia said, whilst that is an area of good practice, at the very same time, the Met were recruiting officers without betting them properly or checking their references. So there's a real mixed picture in the Met. And also we need to remember that whilst Sarah was in London and Wayne Cousins was a Met officer, this isn't just a London

problem. We've seen reports across the country that show problems with how police respond to violence against women and girls and also misogynistic attitudes are rife. So I think we need we need further change. We need that in terms of law and policy. The government and their recent violence against women and girls strategy, that they're going to change the law. So more officers have to be suspended when they're accused of violence against women and girls related offences and that betting practice will be tightened up. That's important. It does need to be implemented quickly. We have heard that for about 18 months now. But it must also filter down. We need practice change. we're still seeing at refuge really poor practice of basics and fundamentals when officers

respond to domestic abuse and other forms of war. Give me an example of what you would like to see. So we really want to see improved training and relentless focus on standards at that first response. So at refuge we're still seeing cases where officers will interview the victim while the perpetrator is still in the house. You know, then that is basic. that should have stopped years ago, and we're still seeing that. We still see cases across our services with perpetrators that are serving officers. They're often not being suspended, we're seeing sort of ponderous, slow action being taken. So there's certainly some good practice,

but we haven't seen the sea change that we wanted to see. I think the whole country wanted to see after the horrific murder of Sarah Everard. We need to really translate from leadership and policy to action and that first response. And I know you say that you believe misogyny is rife within the Metropolitan Police. Others may disagree with that characterisation. But Sima, do you think speaking to Sir Mark Rowley that he believes the sea change has happened? I don't think he thinks it's happened. I think he thinks it's happening.

And I think that there's a difference there. I think work is in progress according to what he told me. He said that, you know, improvements are made. Changes have been made. He says that these 1,500 officers have been rooted out of the organisation, some as a result of inappropriate behaviour towards women. We saw just on Friday a police officer was dismissed for serious sexual misconduct.

So he's saying it's happening all the time. He's saying that these cases are in the public domain, such as the case I've just spoken about on Friday, because they're being more transparent as an organisation. They're saying, look, this is somebody we have got rid of because of what they have done. He says that he feels that the main problem has been taken out of the organisation, that main bulk of problematic officers. But I don't think he's saying that the job is done.

I think he's saying there's still a long way to go, as I said, to rebuild that trust and also to get to a point where they're confident with their workforce. As we are five years in, as we speak about the anniversary, of the abduction, rape and murder of Sarah Everard, a vigil taking place this evening in Clapham Common in London. As I mentioned, I want to thank Ellie Butt from Refuge and also Simicatecha, the BBC's senior UK correspondent. If you would like to get in touch with this,

it's 84844 to speak about whether you have trust in the police, whether it has changed over the past five years. I'd love to hear from you. We have spoken many times about it on this programme. On this particular day, I'd like to hear your thoughts. Also, if you have been affected by any of the issues we've been speaking about, please do go to BBC.co.uk-Uk forward slash action line, where there are links to help and support.

Now, if you are where a fan of the traitors, you will be familiar with my next guest. She is a former barrister turned bestselling author. Her name is Harriet Tice. Harriet, you might know her from Traders. Her new novel is Witch Trial. Now, many of you will have seen Harriet plutting her advocacy skills into practice on this year's series. She was one of the faithful on the hit TV show.

And I have to welcome her from Glasgow this morning. Welcome, Harriet. Hi, thank you very much for having me. Great to have you on. I have to say I was a bit addicted to this BBC hit and you were part of all that. Brilliant series. But you know, I mean, sometimes I felt like I was punishing myself, right? It's quite stressful. to watch the Treasures at the same time being incredibly fun. And I was wondering, for you as a participant, what's the balance with stress and fun? I think it starts as fun and then it becomes increasingly stressful.

It's a very intense game. I've spoken about this on other interviews, but they create an incredibly immersive, believable, psychological environment that when you are in the castle, you really are in the castle. You are as a faithful, completely unsure of the reliability of anyone to whom you're speaking. And so paranoia starts to build. And, you know, even though they take huge care of you as a production and they make sure that you have enough time to sleep,

of course, sleep becomes harder and harder to achieve. Because, you know, I was going back to my individual lodging. and writing down everything that I had seen and heard during the day and trying to work out my theories. And, you know, with your mind racing, it's hard to get to sleep. And then, you know, one wakes up incredibly early. So it was intense. But, you know, it was being alive.

So from that perspective, it was definitely fun. And I think that, you know, fun is not always fun, if that makes sense. Fun is not always enjoyable. But to have been able to be able to be. play a game where it was possible fully to have suspended disbelief is something that would never, I think, have been able to happen in any other environment. Because, you know, you can do these murder mystery weekends or whatever. But you'll always know it's actors.

You'll always know that you're going to go back and it's not real. This felt real. And I think that that's the real strength of the show and it's the real strength of the drama. that, you know, especially for those of us participants who have active imaginations, that, you know, everything is there to make it look like, you know, you have to hunt down murderers. And that's it. That's your job.

You were very successful in lots of ways, and I love this idea of you firing on old cylinders and being sleep deprived, which people might think then you're a traitor if you've been up late. But you saw through Rachel, who was a traitor, along with Stephen, but why do you think? because, you know, you've got these silky skills as a barrister.

Why do you think you couldn't persuade the others to see what you were seeing? I think Rachel was too good for me. She was exceptional in her people skills and her strategising and her ability to deflect questioning in a way that I simply wasn't. You know, that everyone thought they were getting a criminal barrister, which of course I was for, you know, a barrister. 10 years back in my 20s. I'm now in my 50s and I'm a crime writer. You know, I sit in bed in my pyjamas making up stories. So I think that the ability to take lots of different clues and

lots of different sort of feelings and vibes and spin them into a narrative that was convincing for me, that was the crime writer aspect. But it was a messy first draft when I got to the round table. It was a messy first draft. and no one is convinced by a messy first draft. Everyone needs it to have been edited and shored up. And I believe that possibly if I had not had the honour of meeting the Traitors in the Smoke and Mirrors Challenge where I went into the confessional,

it might have been possible to keep my head down for a few more days and to build up more evidence. But as it was, I didn't have the evidence. And so I thought I might as well just go in hard on the drama. And also, you know, I wasn't acting. that was real. You know, I had, the confessional had taken everything I had. And actually the strain of having realized the person that, you know,

one of the people I was closest to was actually not fully telling the truth, you know, that she was hiding, that she was a traitor. And then I was trying to hide myself. I was keeping myself. I know that you have an item later on about women playing down their intellect. I was just thinking about it, thinking about you and Rachel. 100%. I had kept my intellect down.

I had kept my achievements down. I had, you know, I'd hidden under the, flown under the radar as a middle-aged woman, you know, with that sort of veil of invisibility. And I had really sort of kept myself down. And that was actually quite, my ego did not like that. You know, it was quite stressful. And I was being underestimated. Okay, I had created an environment in which I was being underestimated, but I didn't like it, you know?

And it, and that's why it sort of, it came together as it, did. You know, is all I can say. I can also say with my later guest, I know a proclivity to downplay your intelligence can be a sign of intelligence, which I have learned so. Maybe that's you. You need to know when to switch it on and you need to know when to, you know,

dial it up and dial it down because no one likes people being, you know, too much of a show off. But. Well, let's get into some of the things we can show off about you, Harriet. And one of them is your new book, which is witch trial. It's your fifth novel, centres around two girls who are on trial for the murder of their friend. It is creepy. I've been reading it, but not too late at night.

And there is a satisfying surprise at the end, which we're not going to go into. No spoilers this morning. But it is set in a Scottish court. Scotland has a long history of actual witch trials in the 1600s as well. So tell me a little bit about the setting and... You must be very fond of the Gothic, I was thinking, between this and traitors. I am. I am. I'm very fond of the Gothic.

I've always been scared of it. So I face my fears in terms of the research I had to do for the novel, which is fraught with tarot cards, Ouija boards and the occult. It's set in Edinburgh, which is my hometown, my place of birth where I grew up, despite the lack of accent. And it is, I mean, in many ways, there's. book, which trial is a love song to Edinburgh. It was originally, I have to say, going to be set in London in the old Bailey, because that's my experience, to barrister, and I'm lazy,

and I didn't want to have to do research. But my father pointed out, my father's a retired Scottish judge, and he pointed out that there are no opening speeches in Scottish trials, which of course is catnip to a novelist who doesn't want to have to surprise with each evidence given by witnesses. So I was able to tell the story, essentially introducing it witness by witness. And Edinburgh was an obvious choice too, simply because, as you say,

of the history of witchcraft and persecution of women in the 1600s and beyond. I mean, I think that my brief research showed that there had been an execution of about 300 people at least on the Esplanade in Edinburgh up at the castle. King James the 6th and the first was obsessed with witchcraft

and he had made it his personal mission to persecute. I mean, men were also, of course, prosecuted, but it was primarily women and, you know, one can see that there was a lot of misogyny at play there. But to bring it back to Edinburgh, it's a place itself, the home of Jekyll and Hyde, the fact that it has got this world heritage site of Grade 1 listed beauty,

tourist centre architecture. But yes, in the 80s, it was the AIDS capital of Europe that, you know, still now drug deaths in Scotland override the rest of the UK. You know, it's a whited sepica in some respects. It's this beautiful, beautiful place. Yet, you know, you lift the stone

and there's this seamy underbelly. And that was something that I felt very strongly about trying to explore within the novel. Matthew is our protagonist, the male, narrator. I believe this is that the first time you've written a male protagonist. How did it feel to get under his skin? It was hard, you know, I'm not, I try and write from a perspective that I can fully understand and that it's, it's, and something that I can completely inhabit. And so, you know, I'm not a 50-something man, though, you know, I know many of them and are married to one. And so, but I wanted to avoid too much going down the line. of falling into cliche about the way that he might be thinking about certain subjects. I think the fact that he was a juror on the trial

meant that he was mostly considering factual evidence. He was considering abstract theories, you know, that it wasn't just him thinking about something in a way that, you know, how a man thinks mannally, you know, it was better, I think. I don't think I could do something that was more stream of, excuse me, more stream of consciousness man. But I did feel, given that this was a story of two teenage girls who believed that they were witches,

that if it was fully from their perspective, I would limit my audience, that it would find, you know, I would find that men didn't want to read it, that perhaps older women didn't want to read it, you know, that it would fall into a potentially a YA category, which, you know, and I love YA literature, but I wanted to try and keep this as broad as possible.

So it seemed like the right approach to take. the YA, the young adult literature. I'll tell you what I thought was spot on. I did jury service. I've done it a couple of times actually, but I did it not so long ago here. But I wasn't picked finally for a jury, but that part when you're sizing up other people

and wondering who you might be sat beside perhaps for a number of weeks, perhaps for a number of months, and you're very much hoping it's not going to be X and maybe that it'll be Y instead. And I just thought you, you know, hit that nail on the head very much. But of course, you know, you have worked as, as we've been speaking about, a criminal barrister before all this, you know, there is, I suppose, a lot of women, if we talk about the men, women split as well when it comes to the legal system. But of course, as you go up the ladder, then it does become more predominantly male.

I'd be curious for your thoughts on why that might be. And I know it's a number of years since you've been in, but you're obviously still steeped it. Yes, and I think I'm the perfect anecdotal example of why that might be. I left criminal practice when I had a baby because I was the primary carer for our family and my husband earned more money than I did doing legal aid defence work. Being a criminal barrister is not something that is a part-time job. It's something that requires full-time major commitment and complete flexibility as to a level of travel because, I mean, for example, my chambers had a lot of work outside London in Nottingham.

And so friends of mine in Chambers would be going to Nottingham for three weeks on end to do a gun trial or whatever, staying in a travel lodge. And, you know, that's absolutely fine if someone else is at home with the baby. But, you know, while I had childcare, but, you know, I did not want to be having a live-in nanny. And also I would have paid the live-in nanny more than I was earning myself, which, you know, felt like a step too far. So I think that that's the issue that we're hit with this almost intractable collision between the need for courts to run at all times, you know, in order to get through the backlog in particular at the moment. But that means that people need to be able to be there working in courts at all times. And that is something that in conjunction with family life is really, really, really hard. and that, you know, it is still the case that women primarily are the primary carers.

And, you know, we don't need to talk about the cost of childcare as well. That there are many, many factors that make it incredibly hard for women to progress up the ladder as barristers, as advocates in Scotland. Particularly, I think, the difficulty about being the advocacy side where you're actually travelling to courts, that you do have to have this huge amount of time. available at your fingertips and that's something that simply isn't compatible. So that is my theory that family life is what gets in the way and why there's this huge rate of attrition. It's in our 20s, I think, that there were, it was almost 50-50, I think it is almost 50-50

or even more than that if women to men who join the bar. But it just, the rate of attrition is huge and then we end up with what we see now in terms of the judiciary. I mean, there was a point in the Supreme Court where there were, you know, more people, I think, called David than there were women. Or you would have to correct me on the exact name it was. But it's a big, big problem.

And it's a big, big problem if you look at the cases for sexual violence, for domestic violence, when female victims are coming into court and they don't see any women in positions of, you know, should we say authority, or as part of the machinery. It's which... I don't know what the solution is,

but it's definitely a problem. And of course, that's one of the issues we're speaking about this morning on Woman's Hour as well. It'd been the fifth anniversary of the death, rape and abduction of Sarah Everard. Harriet Tice, thank you so much

for spending some time with us. Really enjoyed your book and very much enjoyed you on The Traders as well. Thank you. Of course, if you missed her, just go back to Eyeplayer and you can catch up again with it as well. I think most people,

know who might have won at this stage, but it's still a really fun watch. Thank you so much for joining us, which trial is the book, and it is out now. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just the story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth.

Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you also for your messages that are coming in in reference to what we've discussed thus far. Two years ago, my friend who serves in the police force told me she was thinking of leaving because of sexism. She says that when an all-female team was sent to a scene, they were referred to as a bra-car team. It is hard for her and other female officers.

is to feel they are being taken seriously. So we'll have more of your messages, 84844, if you'd like to get in touch. I do have another question for you of a different sort. How did you sleep last night? Soundly, or did you struggle? Maybe you woke up during the night, maybe around 3 a.m.

Well, if you haven't listened to our new episode of the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, we do explore why sleep can feel so difficult, but also how to take the stress and frustration out of it. Here's a little from cat's door who struggles with sleep and some advice from the sleep physiologist Stephanie Rommoshevsky. I know how bad it is to be on my phone in bed, but sometimes that's the only time I have to answer messages from friends, quickly order a birthday present for a party or put something in the diary. And if I don't do those things on my phone before bed,

then I will wake up and think about them in the night. There's two sleep mechanisms essentially that sort of govern how you do it. And one is your sleep drive and one is your circadian rhythm. Okay. And neither of those things are actually impacted as much as you think. Now I'm not saying that what we're doing at night and I do it too sometimes because I have no other choice is not going to impact you. It doesn't impact your sleep drive and it doesn't impact your circadian rhythm quite as influential as we're led to believe. And if you really want to, you really want to, you to improve sleep, then actually I think, again, we need to liberate ourselves from all the worry, like I'm panic, oh, I'm doing everything wrong. Like, for example, you know, looking at my phone and actually focus on other things, which actually start from the morning, not when you go to bed. Sleep drive. I'd heard of sex drive, but not sleep drive. If you want to learn more about it, go to the latest episode of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life. Just go to BBC Sounds, the Woman's Hour feed. You'll see it there. Just click on the banner.

Let me read one more message coming in on police. The Cumbria Police Force dealing with my domestic abuse case have been fantastic. I really appreciate their professionalism and kindness, says one listener, 8444-844, if you'd like to get in touch. Now to all the empty rooms, which has been nominated for an Oscar in the best documentary short film category. This film explores the impact of a school shooting in the United States, in fact a number of school shootings, and the families that were left behind. It is a difficult watch, gentle at times, harrowing at others, but it does show us something we haven't seen before.

And that is the bedrooms of some of the children who never came home to their coloured duvets, their corkboards of photos, their friendship bracelets, and their cuddly toys. It follows US news correspondent Steve Hartman and the photographer Lou Bop as they document what they find. And recently I got to speak to two bereaved mothers that are in the film,

Jada Scruggs, who's daughter, daughter Halle was nine years old when she was killed in the Covenant school shooting. That was March 27th of 2023 in Nashville, Tennessee. Also, mother Gloria Casares, who's the mother of Jackie, who was also nine when she was killed in the Rob Elementary School shooting on May 24th, 2022. That was Uvalde, Texas. You might remember that one too. The film's director is Joshua Seftel.

He also joined us, and I started by asking Jada and Gloria to tell me about their girls. We'll hear first from Gloria with her men. memories of her daughter, Jackie, I will say it's an emotional listen. Jackie was beautiful inside and out. She was funny. She was full of life. She loved her animals. She wanted to be a veterinarian.

She wanted to travel the world. And she wanted to be a mom. When we see her also part of the video of her getting licked by her dogs, we begin to kind of get an idea of this mischievous, always laughing little girl. I wonder when you go to her room, the lights are left on. You haven't turned them off, I believe, since she died. They're like very bright kind of purple lights that you can understand a little girl just loving. Yes, yes, cool.

I'm just wondering how that feels. I think you might be sitting in her room right now as I speak to you. I am sitting in her room. It's pretty much the quietest room in the house, so this is why I chose it. Yeah. And what does it mean to be there? It's emotional. you just miss her. You miss her all over again. You know, she should be filling up this room with

with laughter and, you know, with her love. And it's just sad. You can't explain it. You can't put it into words. You said that the room really played a big role in her life. Tell me a little bit more about that. Yes, it did. It was her safe place. So there was always music. She always had friends in here. she liked to play dress up since she was little. So it started with princesses and then it started with playing with makeup. There was always some kind of noise coming out of her room. So it's really quiet now.

Yeah. And I can imagine how difficult that must be. It's pink, it's purple, there's unicorns, and I can understand why you and your family go to that room to connect with her. I want to bring Jada in here as well. tell us a little bit about Hallie um Hallie is howley was such a joy she was full of life she really we always said she filled a space um and filled it fully and she loved being with people so it was

really really easy for her to be with other people and she loved her brothers she loved running around out in the yard she loved making mud pies back in the creek and little mud villages with her friends. She loved chasing the dog in the yard. I mean, she really was just full of life. And I think in her room, we see lots of her interests as well, because she seemed to be quite into sports. And you can see that reflected. There was one part I loved that she had her school project, that she had her first tooth and all these firsts that she did. And it brings across, you know, this energetic little girl who was more than well-fitted. to keep up with those older brothers?

Yes, yes. She was definitely a very, very strong caboose, and she kept up very well. She often kept them in line. But she did love sports and played on a couple of different teams. She played on a little soccer team, and she played on a basketball team as well, and was quite good only because she had been playing her whole life,

trying to play with them. What does it mean to you? to go into that room. Yeah. So I would say some of my most special moments were in that room at night. We had a very long bedtime routine with one another. And so she would usually take a bath. And I would kind of sit out in the chair in her room while she would be.

She would sing and tell me all kinds of stories from afar. And then we would get into bed. and we would normally just read a book where I would lay down and she would kind of tuck her head under my shoulder or under my arm and we would read a story. And she loved being read too. And eventually she started reading. So she would read some to me. But we would just kind of have this exchange back and forth with one another. And so that was a very sweet experience for me in that room with her that I really deeply miss.

And so being in a room now, Same sentiments as Gloria. It's just really sad. It's really sad to be in there without her. Is it comforting to be there at all? And of course I understand that deep, deep sadness. Right. That's a good question.

Yes and no, it's all very tangled. The room really does carry the tension of just joy from all the memories and just the sadness from the loss of no more men. memories. Yeah, yeah. And I think I was very struck like whether it's her blankie or, you know, wanting to smell. I think it was your husband said her sweaty hair, which I think many parents will, will completely connect with. I'd like to hear from you, Jada, and then from Gloria on why you wanted to be part of this film. Well, initially we said yes because Steve had reached out via a letter and regarding the project with the first.

photographs with Lou the photographer. And we really liked what he was doing. We also knew Steve's background from the CBS Sunday morning show and had always really appreciated his work and really trusted it. So we said yes to Steve. And then a few weeks later, he called and told us about the project growing a little and becoming a possible documentary or film and thought that if we had a way to share Hallie and to share our grief that could be helpful to other people and to our experience

be helpful to other people than we wanted we were willing to participate and Gloria let me turn back to you why did you say yes um just like Jada said I think for us it was also a way of um honoring Jackie since day one of course we've really fought for the world to to not forget her. No, we wanted to share her story, her, her smile, her laugh, her love for animals. But at the same time, you know, we wanted to show also the part of our lives that nobody really sees. Yeah. And I'm wondering, Gloria, what it's like to open that door and share it with the world. You know, there were small parts of the film that were very affecting. Lou Bop is the photographer, you know, he removes his shoes before entering this space.

which in a way is a sacred space. And I just wonder, did it feel exposing or? No, I didn't think it did. It was difficult. We have been really open. And in the public, it was a little bit different, of course, a little more intimate and private showing her room. But the team was very compassionate and caring.

And I think the way that they filmed, they let us take our time. They let us have our little moments. And they went just as slow or as fast as we wanted to go. They made sure that Jackie was shown, her personality was shown in every single thing that they did. I definitely came away feeling that I knew a little bit about Jackie and also about Hallie as well and their beautiful personalities. Josh, let me bring you in here. Tell me a little bit about why you wanted to capture this on film.

Well, I was approached by Steve Hartman. And he told me about the project he was doing, going into the bedrooms with a photographer, taking pictures. And he thought, you know, he wondered if there could be a film, a documentary. And, you know, I have two little girls myself who are five and nine. And I was immediately struck by the approach and by the idea of reframing this issue away from the political debate. debate we have here. In the U.S., there are over 100 school shootings a year now. And gun violence is the number one cause of death for children in the U.S. So it's a big issue, and it's an issue that is debated in a way that is all about guns. And whether we should, whether you've got

enough guns or too many guns, and the debate has gotten nowhere. And these school shootings continue to happen at this rate, this crazy rate. So I just thought maybe this is a way to talk about the issue by focusing on the empty rooms, to talk about the issue from a human point of view, to talk about the issue in a way that would make people feel something and not just think about statistics or numbers, but actually to see the human toll that this crisis is having on people like. Jada and Gloria. I was struck by a comment that Steve Hartman made at the end of the film. He said, I wish that we could transport all of America into those kids' rooms for just a few

minutes. We'd be a different United States. Do you think that, Gloria? I do. I really do. I think there's people that don't want to understand or they say, no, I'm so sorry, I can't put myself in your shoes. For things like this, they need to understand. You need to make them understand. and when they actually see the film, I'm hoping that they feel and actually see what families like ours live with every day. Now, remember that our children weren't just statistics. They were full of life.

They would have changed the world. Jada, on that point, Steve's point, really, how do you feel about that? I think it's true. I think people are pretty far away from the problem. They think it will never happen to them. or they don't think about it at all. And so I think this film really gives people the space to actually consider it because

they see these rooms. And we all have rooms of our own children. And so we can all relate to that from that perspective. So yeah, I do think people seeing this film and being able to step into these rooms helps them to bring it a little closer, a little closer. a little closer to him. Yeah. This is now also being Oscar nominated.

Congratulations. What difference does that make? I think it makes a big difference. You know, we're on BBC Radio for Women's Hour right now because of it. We're doing a lot of media. We're getting a lot of attention. A bright light is shining on not just this film, but the stories of Hallie and Jackie and Dominic and Gracie, the four kids in our film.

and I think for people to know those stories and to understand what happened to them and to see their bedrooms and understand them as full human beings who are no longer here anymore is important and we believe that by telling those stories

maybe we can channel some of that empathy that people might feel when they watch this film and channel that empathy into change. That's what we hope for. And are you, because you know as well as anyone, and how divisive this issue is in the United States. And there's some, I suppose, whose minds may not be changed

when it comes to stricter gun control, for example, or gun restrictions. Is it perhaps that you're looking for the person who's on the fence or somewhere in the middle? I don't know anyone who's watched this film and hasn't felt deep, deep feelings. And we know that people have watched it who have quite conservative views about,

about guns and gun safety. And we've heard from some of them that they were changed by it. There was even someone who was a Sandy Hook denier. Sandy Hook was a shooting in the U.S. where many children were killed. And people in our country actually say it didn't happen, which is insane. But someone who believes that saw our film

and he wrote to Steve Hartman and said something about how it changed him. So if we can change that person, I think we can change a lot of minds. And I know that that's happening now with this film. Thanks so much to the director, Joshua Seftel, also Jada Scruggs and Gloria Kazares. The film is All the Empty Rooms. It's available to watch on Netflix now. The Oscars are the 15th of March as well.

So they are nominated for that night. Also, I do want to say, if you've been affected by anything you've heard in this conversation, please go to bbc.c.c.c.c.com.uk forward slash action line. where you'll find links to support groups and organisations. Many of you're getting in touch about trust in police. Here's one. I'm a retired inspector from the Met. It's disappointing to see misogyny in many countries, but it doesn't help in policing that female officers are told to work twice as hard as a man in order to get on,

or senior female officers pulling up the ladder behind them. Equality is not giving female officers trousers and a man's hat to wear, but recognising the different talents and skills all. bring, all being on the job. Unfortunately, diversity, equality and inclusivity training has been sidelined with budget cuts. I'm a serving female police officer. The females in our station refer to themselves as the bra car.

We talked about that a little earlier when the ladies' double crew. It's done in fun girl power kind of way, a previous listener feeling that instead it was discriminatory. Well, I want to move on to geniuses. Why are women reluctant to shout about their intelligence? Well, it's an issue that was highlighted on the TV show Secret Genius that aired on Channel 4. Contestants competed to solve complicated puzzles

created in association with Mensa, that is the largest and oldest high IQ society in the world. But we saw women on the show underplaying their intelligence, despite the semi-final line-up on the show being two-thirds women. I'm joined by Hadjar Woodland, a comedian who was a contestant on the show. Good morning. Good morning. Also with this, Dr. Sonia Falk, a psychotherapist and an author who specialises in the psychosocial issues related to people with high IQs.

They're both members of MENSA, I should say. Now, Sonia, when we talk about intelligence and high IQs, what are we measuring exactly? Well, firstly, hello. Intelligence is a social construct, so you can't measure it like levels of intelligence through a blood test or something like that. having said that there are psychological tests devised that over more than 100 years have shown themselves to be the most replicable psychological construct measure and its performance on different cognitive tasks. So obviously lots and lots of things affect a person's performance in taking a test like

that. But the test is scored in a way that shows a typical belker. have outliers on either end and average in the middle. And when we talk about very high IQ like men's membership, we're talking about the top 2% of measured human intelligence, so 90th percentile and higher. But we hear about different types of intelligence, emotional intelligence, for example.

Does it measure things like that? There are lots of different aspects of intelligence. The main tests I'm talking about that are measured in this way are for general intelligence, general competence of ability, sometimes summarized as G. And that is a combination of all these different tasks. So sometimes you will have individuals who will show within the battery of tests, strengths and weaknesses in different specific things like spatial tasks versus verbal tasks and so on. But there's a general fall that is quite reliable. Is there a difference in gender when it comes to scoring on these types of intelligent tests? There isn't a difference in gender across general intelligence.

This has been showed in lots and lots of tests internationally over the decades. What you do see sometimes, and there are always exceptions, is men tend to score higher on spatial related tasks and women tend to score higher on verbal related tasks. Interesting. Let me bring you in here, Hadjarat. Did you always know you were really smart? I had the markers of being smart from school. So I was a straight-o student. I was head girl. I felt very confident at school. You're very clever. But what I really had was this sense of performed intelligence. I really linked my achievement at school with my sense of worth and validation. And there were loads and loads of things going on there with sort of wanting to perform well for teachers and wanting to be a good.

girl and to stay out of trouble. People please it, yeah. I remember feeling a real, actually, I think it was my A levels where I missed a class because I was so overwhelmed with everything going on. And I remember reassuring my teacher, don't worry, I've got this A for you, it'll be fine. Like it wasn't about me getting the grades. It was very much, oh, I need to perform as I'm expected. So that was in school. But do you think you have ever downplayed or underplayed your intelligence? I think after school, I definitely didn't even. even know if I was smart anymore. I went to a very private school-heavy university. I went to a state school and I think my course, I did history, a very good university that was sort of 70% private

school and I instantly just felt unconfident compared to everyone else. Everyone else felt right. And I think I'd watched so much pride and prejudice that I thought I was middle class and then I went to university and was like, oh no, you are, you're nowhere near this, this sort of demographic. And I think seeing all those kind of markers of confidence really affected my self-perception. I think it's so interesting because you're talking about the intersection of confidence, really, and intelligence. And I was reading, Sonia, in your research, you say women and girls get messages to not outperform men and boys. What's that all about? Well, there are a lot of cultural norms that are about favouring men as the gender that needs to go out and work and earn well and be the great winner.

And so a lot of investment is put into the education of men. And women are seen as typically needing to stay home and take on domestic roles and do the child raising. So sometimes there are, you know, families. who don't have enough resources to, for example, send all of their children to the best schools. And so they send the boys to the ones where they're most likely to achieve well. And then there are cultures where it is seen

as you have to support the men to do well and succeed and earn the money that's needed. And women are told to be careful not to humiliate their husbands by outperforming them. Which is interesting, and definitely if we think about it globally, I can think of many places off the top of my head where that is still the case. But women are outperforming in education. We know that with figures, particularly when it comes to higher education,

the women are generally ahead. So why might some of these, I suppose, behaviours or characteristics still continue in 2026 in the UK? Just because they are so traditional, they're so much. backing for those ways of managing gender roles traditionally, that they haven't changed yet and things change slowly. So that's why you still see it. And it works at the level of the intricacy of how people treat each other within a family, which person does the girl, child, identify most with within the family,

the father or the mother. Do you feel you're using your brain to its full capacity now, Hadger? Not yet. I really, really want to. I think part of going on the show was to see how much my brain had atrophied through phone use and being, you know, addicted to, you know, wanting validation in other ways. I think that, yeah, it really, I think Mensa membership was a real surprise to me. I knew I was always smart enough, but that was... Did it help? The show really helped. I think being part of a group of incredible people who had sort of similar issues and conferences. evidence issues and yeah, that really... So I think the message is, put yourself out there, give it a go. It's really worth to watch, but excruciating at times.

But well done. Hadjar Woodland, thanks for joining us, Sonia Falk. Thanks very much. Thanks for all your messages coming in as well. The government schools white paper has promised to double the period of full pay maternity leave for teachers. Join us tomorrow as we discuss it. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft turns out to be flawed? In 1999, four apartment buildings were blown up in Russia, hundreds killed. But 25 years on, we still don't know for sure who did it.

It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. Because these bombs, they're part of the origin story of one of the most powerful men in the world. Vladimir Putin. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss first time round? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen first on BBC Sounds.

For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story.

Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts.