Woman's Hour - Sarah Everard; Intergenerational friendships, 007 Lashana Lynch; 'Late life lesbians'. Married to an anti-vaxxer

Episode Date: October 2, 2021

Zoe Billingham, one of the top inspectors at Her Majesty’s of Constabulary, and Dame Vera Baird, the Victims' Commissioner for England and Wales on the reaction to further details about Sarah Everard's murder and the subsequent life prison sentence handed down to the former Met Police officer Wayne Couzens.Intergenational friendships, how is it different from being friends with someone your own age? Best friends 60 year old Sue and 33 year old Emily discuss. The actor Lashana Lynch on making Bond history as the first black female 007 in 'No Time to Die'. The woman whose husband of 15 years became a covid conspiracy theorist. Flick Bayliss on her experience as a 'late life lesbian;, and writing lesbian erotica. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Afternoon all and a very warm welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. Now grab the tipple of your choice and settle in for a selection of standout moments from the last week. Think about your close friends. How many of them are from a different age group to you? We look at intergenerational friendships. How is it different from being friends with someone your own age? Then the actor Lashana Lynch making Bond history,

causing a shake and a stir as the first black female 007. They literally made me an injure. I walked in and I said, don't hold back. I played netball as a child. I did a bit of football. I walked in and I said, don't hold back. I played netball as a child. I did a bit of football. I'm in my body. And they were like, cool, are you down for doing a bit of wushu, a bit of boxing? I was like, yeah, sure, go for it.

And then when we started, I realised they clarified that they were training me for life. How cool is that? Then the woman whose husband of 15 years became a Covid conspiracy theorist. And the woman's our listener who wanted to share her experience as a late life lesbian under her pen name Flick Bayliss. She's written some lesbian erotica. All of that on a Saturday afternoon. You're welcome. But first, rage, disbelief, unimaginable sorrow and more rage. Some of the emotions pouring out of women all over the country as we learned some of the horrific details of Sarah Everard's last hours

at the hands of the policeman, Wayne Cousins. We learned he kidnapped Sarah under the guise of a false arrest before raping and killing her. On Thursday, he was given a whole life prison sentence. Listener and freelance journalist Kat Brown had this to say. It would be so nice to get through a week, a month, a year without descending into a feeling of helpless, cold, hard rage. When are women going to stop being murdered by men? Not just women, obviously, just anybody that a certain type of man decides to prey on, basically. And that's the feeling. It's impossible to feel like a safe, responsible,

capable, empowered person when you could be taken at absolutely any moment, even when you're doing everything in heavily inverted commasas right. The rage that has poured out of people, of women in particular, on social media yesterday, I mean it was palpable and that's why I'm speaking to you. I saw some of your messages. Rage is something that is born from frustration, whether it is from feeling impotent about something. And in this instance, I think it's the fact that it's not just Sarah Everard, whose appalling, appalling treatment and ending, because that's what it was, it wasn't ending, was detailed so incredibly graphically yesterday. And what an appalling experience for her parents. But it's also, up with Bieber Henry and Nicole Smallman last year

and police swapping messages about them and photographs and laughing about them. It's about Sabina Nasser. It's about Julia James. And it's about the 118 names that Jess Phillips, the MP, read out earlier this year, as she does every year, a full four minutes of women who have been killed due to male violence. The journalist Kat Brown there. And on Thursday, Emma spoke to Zoe Billingham, one of the top inspectors at Her Majesty's Inspectorate of

Constabulary. She is responsible for inspecting 15 police forces, including Kent Police, where Wayne Cousins used to work and was accused of indecent exposure in 2015. Two weeks ago, on the day Sabina Nessa was murdered, Zoe published a damning report into the way an epidemic of violence against women and girls is being handled. She called for the prevention of these crimes to be taken as seriously by police and government as counter-terrorism. That report was commissioned by Home Secretary Preeti Patel in the wake of Sarah Everard's death. Emma began by asking Zoe Billingham for her reaction

to hearing the details of Sarah's murder. Deep, deep anger. Deep anger that a serving police officer was able to abduct a beautiful young woman from our streets and kill her in the most horrific manner. And I think this is a watershed moment for policing. I think that we cannot abide by the narrative that this was a one-off, that he was a badden.

And I think every force now in the country must look to re-establish trust and legitimacy because what Wayne Cousins did to Sarah Everard has struck a hammer blow to the heart of policing legitimacy in England and Wales. It needs to be treated as thus and I'd call on every force in the country to now account immediately,

not tomorrow, today, to account immediately to its communities as to exactly what it's going to do to ensure that this can never happen again. And there are a whole range of things that I would expect the police to be doing to make sure that they are vetting, that they are screening, that they are scrutinising, that they are asking themselves what type of person do we want in policing? What checks and safeguards are we going to put in place to ensure this can never happen again? I'll talk about the police more broadly in just a moment. But we do also know that Wayne Cousins was accused of indecent exposure six years before he murdered Sarah Everard.

Kent Police, which I believe comes under your watch, is now being investigated by the Independent Office for Police Conduct, the IOPC, over whether it handled the allegations in 2015 properly. The IOPC, we should say, is also examining allegations that the Met Police, which is where he then moved to, did not investigate adequately another claim that Wayne Cousins had exposed himself. That alleged incident happened in South London only days before the killing. You inspect Kent Police. Why wasn't this spotted? How was he allowed to keep on keeping on? And of course, Emma, it's absolutely vital that the Independent Office of Police Conduct reviews these cases and reports very rapidly. I led a report not that long ago looking at the abuse of position by police officers for sexual purposes.

I called it shining a light on betrayal. And what was very clear to me, very clear, and we made very significant recommendations to policing, is that the police have not got in place in most places sufficient resources in their counter-corruption units to be able to identify poor behaviours, suspect behaviours, areas where male officers may be looking to have inappropriate relationships with victims. They weren't putting their resources into the counter corruption units effectively to be able to prevent these sorts of abuses of position happening. We were also really concerned that police officers weren't being appropriately

vetted and again this is an issue that we raised. We were very clear that when police officers transfer from one force to another that's a point in time where a question has to be asked why is that person transferring? Anecdotal evidence, and it was only anecdotal evidence at the time, told us that people move forces and jump before they're caught out. And so we were shocked at the time that there was no requirement when police move from one force to another, that there was new vetting in place

and questions asked about their background in their parent force. When did you do this report? This was in 2019, September, almost two years to today. Because a bit like Ofsted, you can carry out in schools investigations and make recommendations, but you can't actually do anything, can you? The only thing that we can do is go in shine a light on behalf of the public and make recommendations i mean it's different i should say in other ways but just trying to bring it alive to our listeners what your role is precisely we our power is to go in shine a light

make recommendations so will those recommendations take it so in terms of the question around whether or not transfer transfer of a vetted appropriately yes I'm pleased to say that immediately the National Police Chiefs Council. But until 2019 in this country you could move from police force to police force without being vetted before you join the new police. Quite extraordinary isn't it yes that was the case and that's what we exposed. And to come back to Wayne Cousins and which you're you cover as part of your inspectorate can i ask you that question again why is kent police now being looked into why wasn't this looked into at the time properly well quite rightly you're asking

that question emma and quite rightly i'm not in your job that's that that the way that this works is that it is for the Independent Office of Police Conduct to review that particular instance. Yes, they'll review at that particular instance. But what's your role when something like that has come up at Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary? So our role is to identify where there's failings in forces. And that we did. We looked at whether or not forces have sufficient capability and capacity in their counter-corruption units, and we called on forces to change.

And what we're now doing... So that's how Wayne Cousins, with this allegation, could have slipped through the net. Obviously, that's something that the Independent Office of Police Conduct has to look at. I suppose what I'm driving at is, who is policing the police? Do you think, you're stepping down now, I should say, as well to our listeners, do you leave feeling like anyone is effectively policing the police in this country? I feel that this case has exposed

great concerns for women and girls in England and Wales and I feel that much more needs to be done in order to change the position that we find ourselves in I think it's absolutely vital as we are now doing as we're now doing Emma we are going back into forces as we speak today we are back in forces checking again whether or not the suggestions the recommendations that we demanded have actually been acted on and if they haven't then we will say again that something needs to change that action needs to be taken and what I'm saying today is that we cannot write off the act of Wayne Cousins which is a betrayal for all officers staff and PCSOs we cannot write that off as that's a one-off. We must insist that police now ensure absolutely

there are systems in place to stop this happening again for the future. So do you not think there are systems in place right now? That's what I'm trying to drive at. Do you not think that? You can speak freely, you're leaving. Go on. Quite clearly, what we found when we looked at this is that there weren't systems in place. So do you still not think today, speaking to me on the day Wayne Cousins is being sentenced, do you still not think there are systems in place?

I think we still need to be shown by police forces themselves, they need to stand up and account to their communities that they do have those systems in place. Because you're not convinced they are. We have yet to see and say with certainty that this may not happen again. You can't say to our listeners today with that certainty that. I don't think I can. Can we just stop on that for a moment? Yes.

Because there will be a lot of, and I'm very aware a lot of our listeners will also work in the police, either as officers or in other roles. And they will be thinking, this is an extraordinary case because it doesn't happen that often. It's not normal to be arrested, falsely arrested, I should keep stressing, by a police officer and then have what happened to Sarah Everard. It isn't the norm at all. But there will be and could be a disproportionate impact,

as you've been saying, on women's ability to trust police. Yes, absolutely. That's the bigger damage as well here, as well as the huge unimaginable loss to the Everard family that I do not wish to lose sight of. But you're sitting here as the outgoing, one of the top inspectors, Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary, saying you cannot say to our listeners today that you believe that there are systems and processes in place within the police forces right now to make sure this never happens again. I can't say that. From what I've seen most recently when I looked at this, no, I can't say that. But what I can say today... Why don't you think they've got them? Because a whole range of reasons. I think that the forces have not necessarily treated as the

highest priority a whole range of issues relating to violence against women and girls male violence against women and girls what we found in our report when we looked at as commissioned by the Home Secretary following Sarah's tragic death is we found that actually within policing these crimes against women and girls are simply not being prioritised in the same way as other crimes. At night, how safe would you feel going to a male police officer with a problem? At this moment in time, like any other woman, I have concerns and reservations. And that's why I say today we cannot dismiss Wayne Cousins as a one-off, as a rarity, as an aberration. We must see every single police force in England and Wales

now stepping forward to tell its communities precisely what it's doing to ensure that women are safe. Emma speaking to Zoe Billingham. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Dame Cressida Dick, has said Sarah Everard's murder has brought shame on the force, admitting a precious bond of trust has been damaged. Many people have, however, called for the commissioner's resignation, including a number of MPs and campaign groups. Yesterday, I spoke to Dame Vera Bird, the Victims Commissioner for England and Wales,

and I began by asking her if she thinks Dame Cressida Dick should resign. I truly don't think that that's something that the Victims Commissioner should be expressing a view about. So you don't have an opinion either way? I certainly do have an opinion. But you're not going to share it with us? I feel that it's not for me to express that view. Supposing I say one thing and say she goes, then the next time a victim's not treated well, they will say, perhaps, well, should the Victims Commissioner really have talked about the Metropolitan Police? No wonder they're not doing a good job because she got rid of their leader last time. And if I say she should

stay, you know, the opposite will be the case. My interest is victims. My responsibility is victims. There is no doubt whatsoever that particularly females victims faith in the police has collapsed. But this is the pinnacle of it. This is the worst bit of it. It is dreadful that this was a police officer. Believe you, we did a survey a year ago, which showed that only 5% of rape complainants thought they could get justice by going to the police then. So this collapse is at its worst and its highest now. But it is not a new thing. There is really very little faith by women in how the police deal with violence against women and girls. And frankly, you know, scrapping one individual

in the hope that, you know, Superman is waiting in the wings and can put it all right is not a very realistic... I should say that we have, of course, reached out to Cressida Dick to join us and she did decline the offer. In that case, Vera, I'll ask you what you think about the way the Met Police have reacted, how they've reacted to what's happening. Is it satisfactory in your view? No, I think that firstly, I'm very pleased if they think that they can put forward a positive strategy that will impress people. Let's give them that opportunity. But honestly, you know, another piece of paper that we can put on the shelf

isn't going to make the difference. It has been very clear for a very long time. It's 80 women who've been killed since Sarah, including Sabina. And all of the outcry that there was around Sarah's death, you know, 180,000 women wrote to the government's Violence Against Women and Strategy, the inspectorate of Constabulary. I think you had Zoe Billingham on yesterday. She led that brilliant report. Well done to the Home Secretary for commissioning that in-depth look at the police. It concluded there is an epidemic of violence against women, girls, and the police have failed to protect them against it.

They've got better. I mean, no doubt they've got better over the last decades, but it's extraordinarily patchy. And, you know, one has to look at the real problem that probably innate sexism runs through the police probably more deeply than it runs through society though it remains a big factor in society attitudes that women are you know not so valued for anything but their sexuality and so they are not treated as people why do you say that, Vera? I mean, this is just my, you know, sort of cheap assessment from, you know, from my own experience. Isn't the fact that in society now, there is a permissive quality to the fact that women are seen primarily as sexual creatures, not wholly as sexual creatures. But they are, I still think, seen in that fashion. That's the first. But you've just said that you think it's worse in the police than in society.

Why did you say that? I think that it's probably the nature of policing. In what way? First of all, it's still very male. And even though there are some women chief constables, there are obviously not enough. There is no critical mass of female officers to change the culture.

The culture remains male dominated. I have heard people say that, you know, you can be gay, you can be black, you can be a woman, but actually that's all fine in the police as long as you behave like a straight white male. There is a need for a sense of collegiate nature about the police because they have to deal with public order stuff. They have to know they can rely on each other,

but that can tend to bond into a sort of brotherhood. And I say that probably another reason that it's worse in the police is because of the nature of why people go into policing quite often it's a bit of an action man thing not quite military but not far off it and that's the stuff they're interested in a senior woman police officer said to me just a few weeks ago if it's a burglary, boy, they'll go very, very quickly. Speaking of the police, if it's domestic abuse, they probably won't hurry quite so much. So I am obviously very worried about the whole history of this. And we're not getting violence against women and girls any nearer at the top of the priorities than they were when I was a young woman. Our listeners hearing you say that, who are already feeling all the emotions that I mentioned in the opener,

they're angry, they're sad, they're terrified. We know this because they're getting in touch with us to tell us how they're feeling. Listening to you say that, as someone who was before you a Victims Commissioner, you were Police and Crime Commissioner, so you know what's going on. How is that going to feel that they can trust the police, which is a conversation that's going on more widely?

How can women possibly trust the police if they've just heard you say that? I'm sorry, you know, they don't trust the police and they haven't been doing for some time. And I reflect, you know, it isn't what Vera Baird thinks. Obviously, there is my own experience and obviously it is my own experience. And obviously, it is my own experience that's speaking to. But we have, you know, a fantastic stakeholder network, where we make sure that when a position needs to be taken about victims, it's not mine, it's what I've been told by victims.

And you couldn't, you know, you couldn't say it more loudly this morning than victims themselves and female members of the public themselves are saying trust in the police has currently been lost. But it isn't, as I think the Met are trying to make it seem, only this awful incident that's caused that loss. The police have not been as good as they should have been dealing with violence against women and girls for a very long time. And so innate distrust has simply built up. My message is to the police, surely at this stage, you must realise how deficient your service to women has been. This, you know, awful crescendo must tell you, now's the moment, you really have got to raise this as a national priority. And I think Zoe Billingham yesterday was saying, well, I fundamentally agree, which is violence against women and girls

has to become a national strategic policing requirement on every force. Then it can have more resource. Then the forces which are doing quite good work, that good practice will So people will want to go into this area of investigation and policing. And we need through, I think, through police channels to lift up its priority. And I think that's the way to start doing it. I think if you say to police, you know, your sex is changing, that isn't going to make the it. I think if you say to police, you know, your sex is changing, that isn't going to make the difference. I think if you can say you're failing as police officers, this is half of the population. And the way to do that is to use a police definition and drive it through the police own channels. So I'm 100% with Zoe Billingham about the likeliest way of making relatively speedy change. That's not to say we don't have to tackle societal attitudes as well.

Your emails came flooding in. Jane said, like everybody, I feel devastated for Sarah and her family. I would feel safer if I could be reassured that the vetting process of prospective police officers is the most robust and challenging process that psychological profiling, training and monitoring systems are in place and made explicit to the general public that women police officers can take an active role in the recruitment and retention of police officers. And most importantly, can reassure women that sexism, misogyny, homophobia and racism is exposed and dealt with. Laura says, Yesterday I explained to my 13-year-old daughter why she needs to be so careful around men. Or when out alone, she told me that she will never be able to trust a policeman. That's heartbreaking. We have to deal with this scourge against women.

I was seven years old the first time I was sexually assaulted by a man in the street. He tried to take me away with him, but I escaped. It was the first, but not the last time. And another message from a listener here saying, my son has joined the Met and he did not join for any macho reasons. He and the others of his generation are not racist. They value women as people and equals.

He feels that the others training with him are the same and it's the older police officers that have the more unacceptable views on race and gender. The younger trainees can't solve everything now, but they are the same, and it's the older police officers that have the more unacceptable views on race and gender. The younger trainees can't solve everything now, but they are the future. And you can hear longer versions of both interviews with Vera Bird and Zoe Billingham by listening back on BBC Sounds. And do get in touch with us about anything you hear on the programme or you'd like us to discuss. You can contact us via our website or on Twitter and Instagram. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, finally, for Bond fans around the world,

we have to wait no more. No Time to Die, the new James Bond film, is out in cinemas after being delayed three times due to the pandemic. It's the final outing of Daniel Craig as 007. The first blonde Bond is stepping away from the role after five films and 15 years. But that's not the only change.

The actor Lashana Lynch has made Bond history, becoming the first black female 007. In the new movie, 00 agent Nomi, played by Lashana, inherits the special codename after Bond retires from service. Emma asked her about getting the role. This came out of

nowhere. I did a play at the role. This came out of nowhere. I did a play at the Royal Court Theatre that Barbara Broccoli produced called Ear for Eye, which has now since turned into a film. And I didn't anticipate off the back of that play then working with Barbara Broccoli on a Bond movie. No, I mean, that's quite a cool journey to have made, I'm sure. So cool. But I suppose I also meant it because, I mean, that's quite a cool, cool journey to have made, I'm sure. But I suppose I also meant it because, you know, you say the words James Bond, and then you talk about being

a Bond girl and inverted commas. And while there've been some hugely glamorous, you know, amazing women, strong, powerful women associated with that, it's also not always associated with good things for women. And because of that, me walking into the room and actually having discussions with Barbara, Kerry and Daniel at the same time, I knew that the leaps that they'd made over the last few years, especially since Daniel joined the franchise, this was just going to be a continuation of that work. I saw exactly where Barbara was speaking from. I saw Kerry's vision and I knew exactly the things that Daniel stood by, which made me feel confident that this character

wasn't going to be standing behind anyone. She was going to be there in her own right, doing her own thing, bussing balls. And I love it. And I bought straight into it. And that's exactly what we provided on this screen. Bond, you don't mind a shot or two whilst at work? Shall we?

Well, I haven't had a drink for three or four hours. Wow. Doesn't sound like you. I love that you've also spoken about, you know, wanting to be good to your body and health and fitness and that you asked them to make you a ninja and they have. What do you mean by that? They literally made me a ninja, Emma.

I walked in and I said, don't hold back. I'm good. You know, I've got some, I played netball as a child. I did a bit of football. I'm in my body. And they were like, cool, are you down for doing a bit of wushu, a bit of boxing? I was football I'm in my body and they were like cool are you down for doing a bit of wushu a bit of boxing I was like yeah sure go for it and then when we started I realized that firstly maybe I shouldn't have said that because they went for it and also they

they they clarified that they were training me for life they actually were giving me the most ninja techniques to then take not only in my personal life, but into further projects in my career. So yeah, they did actually make me a ninja. I feel like an actual ninja. I like to claim that actually. Okay. Well, if we meet and hopefully when we do meet in person, I won't mess. Let me ask about one of the things I know is really important to you. And we should also bring up, you know, working with Phoebe Waller-Bridge as well in terms of the people you've got to work with as part of this. One of her specialities is making women who are believable,

who you feel that you can recognise from real life. And I know that you wanted to make sure that your character Nomi was relatable in some way how have you managed to do that? One by coming in with that intention but also once I spoke to Phoebe I realized that we were on completely the same page she wanted the same thing she envisaged the same thing and it's really important for me, for young girls to see that even though there is a when you work on those things, you could turn out to be an agent once you channel all the gripes in life, all the environmental and social, cultural things that weigh us down. And it was important that we had that initial conversation

so we were on the same page and that I was creating a role that people could aspire and be inspired by. Have you ever flown one of these things before? Nope. I was going to say that those social gripes, to put it mildly, I mean, there's the aspiration of what you do with your work and what you show to people, but I do know that when news leaked that you would be inheriting the I do know that when news leaked,

that you would be inheriting the 007 mantle, as I say, the first ever black female actor to do that. You, I understand, had to delete your social media accounts and take away, take yourself away from that because some of the response was less than positive, shall we say? Well, it's so interesting with that talk because nothing was confirmed and yet everyone got their knickers in a twist. Nothing. So people don't even know what this character does in the film, yet I'm supposed to make these opinions my business, which once I realised that it's not, it made things a lot easier. So I didn't just take away my phone

and just delete my social media apps and just pretend it wasn't happening. I just realized that my mental health, my self-worth and the protection of my energy is much more important than people's opinions. So once I got grounded in that, I was able to just focus on the work, which meant that I was giving my best in a franchise that deserved it. And I was also allowing people to just live

in their truth over there whilst I was living in mine. Just a final question, if I can. Daniel Craig has said he doesn't believe James Bond should be played by a woman. He's joined lots of other people from the Bond universe, including Bond girl Halle Berry, who said Bond should be played by a woman. He's joined lots of other people from the Bond universe, including Bond girl Halle Berry, who said Bond should only be played by a man. He went on to say there are other characters, essentially, that should be drawn for women. It doesn't mean that a woman has to play a man's role and a role that was created by a man for a man. Where do you stand on that? I think that's a really good point. And I was just listening to him speak earlier about the fact that we are so quick as a world to change things, to have one role that's been a part of the fabric of the nation suddenly be changed into something else, whether it be

a black person or a woman or a teenager at this point anyone could take it on but if it's if it's if that's part of the fabric and that's actually who James Bond and 007 was meant to be then let's just create something else for this woman who has come in to shake things up let's create let's start a new franchise and you know put all the the ideas that have been shelved because the world believes that the audiences aren't ready for it. And let's inject that into the brains of young people who are going to be inspired by these narratives. It's really important that we don't just solely rely on taking things over. We understand that it's important that everyone gets their rightful time on screen to discuss the narratives that have been underrepresented.

So have you sorted that out with Barbara Rockley? Have you got that new franchise sorted? I wish. They don't tell me anything, Emma. I don't have a clue. Well, they don't tell me anything either, but this is my job. I've got to ask the questions. Just finally, Lashana, can you beat Daniel Craig in a fight? Now you are a ninja. Who's tougher, you or him? Oh, I'm just going to say me because just now he asked me who could be a real spy in the cast and he pointed to me and I thought, oh, yeah.

Nailed it. Good. So, yeah, I'll just say me just for the giggles. What a badass. Lashana Lynch, No Time To Die, is out in cinemas now and I, for one, can't wait to see it. I'll have to make sure I have a nap before I go, though. I hear it's very long.

Now, the pandemic has taken its toll on many marriages and partnerships for a variety of different reasons. For Anna, not her real name, it was something she couldn't possibly have predicted. Her husband of 15 years became a Covid conspiracy theorist almost overnight. It's no exaggeration to say that it has torn their family apart. So she wrote to Woman's Hour because she wanted to share her story in case it can help others. Emma started by asking her when she noticed her husband was changing.

The first few weeks we were sort of reading, watching the news, others. Emma started by asking her when she noticed her husband was changing. The first few weeks we were sort of reading, watching the news just like everybody else and kind of being really shocked and not knowing what was happening. And then within a few weeks he was already starting to believe that the 5G conspiracies, constantly online, YouTube was being played all the time. And then as the pandemic sort of progressed, so did his fear, anxiety and even more bizarre thinking, I suppose. And was he talking about it with you? and I know you've got children as well? Yeah I mean it was really really difficult so yes we did speak about it it was a big cause of conflict obviously I was looking to sort of shield the children as much as possible it was definitely a sort of conflict and there was very little that I could do he would just take himself off and you know be watching YouTube for most of the time. Had he been like this before in

terms of being on his computer a lot of the time or was was even that new? No I think he had probably started before and this just increased his anxiety really and just got immersed in an online world it became his friendships his community and then it just continues to feed that way of thinking he stopped socializing and were you able to try and convince him of of the reality around you and what you were thinking and how you were thinking about this completely differently? No, absolutely not. And that is devastating. He would constantly say, why can't't see it is either stupid or is sort of part of the conspiracy. When did you decide it got too much?

Just after Christmas was when we formally separated. So and yeah, and then the divorce proceedings. So and yeah, it wasn't the right environment it's not the right environment for my children and it's damaging I truly believe it's damaging for them is it right that he and where is he on this now and where are you on this that he won't let we didn't want anyone to be vaccinated in the house didn't want anyone to take any tests yeah so um i mean obviously we're living separately um however we still have to manage our parenting and yes we're on completely different um ends of the spectrum on that so yeah i mean he has been in touch with our children's schools um and said that he hasn't given consent for the testing so they hadn't been able to be tested in the school environment because the schools then didn't feel that they could.

So I'm pretty sure he hasn't been vaccinated. I have been. So I've I've had my two jabs. Does he does he know you've been vaccinated? I suspect he probably would have thought that I have been. But no, it's not certainly something I've said. And it wasn't something I told my children at the beginning either. I wanted to sort of get both vaccinations and then be able to tell them a little while later that I've been vaccinated. This must be very hard for them to process, for children to to try and take in you know for all children

it's been difficult going through a pandemic and the disruptions to their lives but to have one parent saying these sorts of things I mean does he say it to them um so yes I think that was probably one of my real um crunch points was um that I wanted to be able to then bring them up in an environment whereby they felt safe and secure whereas um because he just had no filter so if he felt something he then had to say it he wasn't able to think is this appropriate is this inappropriate and you know is it age appropriate so yeah so therefore yeah he has said things to them. Absolutely. Incredibly difficult for them. Incredibly complex because I don't want to bring them into a position whereby they feel they have to choose which parent is right, which parent do I love the most,

which parent do I trust the most. So moving forward, I think I just need to do it really slowly with them. But are they old enough to reason and have these sorts of conversations and to tell them that their father's been influenced? Yes. Yeah. And that has been sort of part of the process that we've gone through. And we've had counselling as well. So that's been really helpful. They've helped me guide conversations that I can have with them. So that's been really good. But yeah, I think anything like this, though, where there is high conflict between parents, whether it's this or something else, you just, I think you just need to take it really slowly.

Do you feel like you've lost your husband to COVID conspiracy theories? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, we are now getting divorced. So I didn't know if there was anything beforehand in the marriage that you felt was not right leading up to this, or this has really come out of the blue for your relationship. Okay. i think there were there were other issues so i think what has compounded his um what i would consider paranoia um was substance abuse and that would be um he was quite a prolific cannabis user um so yeah i mean that that's obviously been an issue because it's not something I do. So, yes, that had been an issue. And I think that certainly compounded his paranoia with the Covid conspiracies.

Definitely. Who do you hold responsible for the influence he's come under? You've mentioned drugs there, so I presume in some way you hold him responsible for part of that. But there is, of course, a lot of factors going on with the spread of lies and misinformation. Yeah, absolutely. I think ultimately, as the fear, the algorithms, because that is all he sees, because that's all that's thrown at him online, is huge. moving forward because it breaks down society. He no longer trusts anybody. So he didn't trust me, his wife, and he didn't trust the government. You then stop trusting your police, your teachers. You think your doctors are lying to you. So it actually breaks down all sections of society. And that's terrifying. And if you are going through something right now that you would like to talk to us about on Woman's Hour, then please do get in touch with us. We'd love to hear from you. Just go to our website and send us an email. Now, friendships. Well, a certain kind of friendship. One with

someone from a different generation to you. Are you mates with someone who is much older or much younger than you? What makes this friendship special? What do you talk about? Sue and Emily are best friends from Kent. There's a 27-year age gap between them. Sue's 60 and Emily is 33. And they joined me on the programme yesterday. I started by asking how they met.

We both belong to the same running club. And we went on an away marathon together with a group of people from the running club and we just really hit it off. And, yeah, I've just been friends ever since. I think that was about six years ago. And, Sue, you have daughters the same age as Emily and Sue is probably the same age as your mum. Is it comparable to the mother-daughter relationship? Is it similar?

What do you think, Sue? No, it is very different. It is... With a mother, you tend to be much more nurturing it's much more about guidance and you know like if emily's saying something because she's got children as well and she's saying oh i need a bit of help on something it's much more about sort of um advice and suggestions whereas with your own children it's a bit more guidance a bit more nurturing i mean it's much more fun, like a friendship.

Whereas with a parent, you have that responsibility all the time. And you're very concerned that you're doing the right thing. And you're not saying things in any way could harm them. Whereas with a friend, that sort of responsibility as a person, as a nurturing parent, isn't really there. You can talk about anything and not be awkward. We're getting lots of people getting in touch about this you know um amanda says as a 63 year old woman i can honestly say that some of the most rewarding friendships have been with younger men and women in their 20s they consider me to be a wise woman and listen carefully to my opinions i hope i do likewise and i can honestly say that i think the

generation gap has disappeared is that what's happened with you do you think yeah definitely I generally just feel like Siri is just one of my friends it's not the age gap has got nothing to do with it it's just we really hit it off we find each other really funny we've got the same sense of humor and we just there's just that openness there that you get with any friendship how is it different though to um the relationships and friendships that you have with people your own age I think people my own age look back on life a little bit. It tends to be a bit more jaded, a little bit more. This is what's happened to me in the past, particularly if you talk about relationships or careers or whatever.

They tend to it tends to be always looking back, whereas Emily is always looking forward. And younger people tend to be always saying they've got these experiences to come yet and some of them we've gone through and some of them we haven't I feel when I'm talking to Emily exactly the same age as her so although I am I do realize I'm older than her I'm not you know you know stupid but I do I don't feel that when I'm talking to her I feel we are feeling the same things about the same as you do with your friends. But then sometimes like she's got young children and my children are grown up and you then feel sometimes you'll be concerned about something. You feel you have to then offer advice because you've been there and done it. Emily's into women in sport.

It's a big issue for her. You know, she's very, trying to promote it massively. And so she's talking much more for me, the younger perspective, and I will be then. But that's probably, it's really interesting though, isn't it? To hear the younger perspective. Life has changed quite a lot in the last sort of, you know, 30 years and sort of different perspectives. What do you think, Emily?

Definitely. I feel like I've got my friends I've got my really close group of girlfriends I went to school with the same age as me we feel like we're all in it together we've got the same struggles we've got young kids we're married we have the same kind of issues so he's been through a lot of that and so for me it's having that person who has seen a lot more of life than I have and it's just been through all these things kids and marriage and and all sorts of stuff and being able to go to that person who has seen a lot more of life than I have and has just been through all these things, kids and marriage and all sorts of stuff, and being able to go to that person

and have that other perspective that comes in. And for Sue to say to me, you know, don't worry about X, Y and Z. You need to be looking at the bigger picture and looking at this. And for me, it's just having that person that can go, you know, forget all the stuff that you're annoyed about today. You know, you've got all these fantastic things going on. on do you know it's interesting because obviously we knew we were setting this going to be talking to the two of you and I was thinking about it last night and I thought why wouldn't we want friends from different generations this idea that you only hang out

with people your own age is probably the the odd thing really surely where you'd want to talk to people with from different walks of life with different experiences yeah I remember leaving university and being desperate to go to work where there would be a range of ages yeah because you know you're all university you're just with the same age all the time but I do actually remember that and I yeah I I love it I think it brings such a whole range to you know to, to the workplace, to what you're talking about. You know, people at different stages, different experiences, different emotions. And you've obviously got the running club in common, but where else do you hang out? Like if you were if you were my mate, so I might want to take you to a club. Would you come with me?

Well, I would actually. Good on you. Yeah. Why not? I don't know. I think it's about just getting out there and doing things and being spontaneous. And I think that's a personality thing. I think that's the thing about Emily and I. We get on and it's about personalities. And neither of us are ageist in the sense that particularly

from Emily's point of view, I don't feel that she talks to me differently because of my age. I think she just talks to me because I am who I am and we get on. And it's like we have the same sense of humour. We're quite rude to each other all the time. So we never fall out. We don't know if we're actually being rude or funny. Hayley, who is 60, wrote in to say,

I have several friends in their 30s who I met at work. I really value these friends for their views, values and outlook, bringing a fresh and different perspective to my life. They relate to me as an equal, not as their mum. Esther says, I have several friends who are in their 60s to 80s and I'm in my 40s. I believe people aren't defined by the age they're born in. I've often had more in common with older friends than my own generation. They've seen more, have great stories and introduced me to new experiences. And Jane writes in to say, I'm 36 and have four friends in their late 60s to mid 70s.

Two are retired work colleagues and two are a couple I befriended through the Ramblers a couple of years ago. They all supported me when I was having a rough time with poor mental health and I'm eternally grateful. I've since returned the favour and continue to offer whatever advice I can. I appreciate their wisdom and different perspectives on life which is a calming influence when I tend to operate at 100 miles an hour. Highly recommended having friends from different age groups. Now a regular listener mailed in to us to say that in her view we've neglected the subject of what she terms late life lesbians in our coverage of female sexuality and relationships. It's a group she hopes to

serve with her collection of erotic lesbian short stories called The Awakening Life of Tessa James which she describes as Bridget Jones meets Fifty Shades. Her pen name is Flick Bayliss. What was Flick's own experience? Did she always know she was gay? I wouldn't say that I realised I was gay at 44. I think I finally confirmed it, but I'd been very, very confused about it since about 15 years old. And the reason I was so confused about it is that every effort that I made to explore it, which ranges from falling madly in love with a devout Christian who felt the same but couldn't go near it, through to a brutal experience as someone who was just cruel in a nightclub. Every effort that I made to try and explore it just kept pointing me to believe I wasn't gay, which I was very upset about because everything about me seemed

to make so much more sense if I was. And I just was getting so frustrated because I didn't I generally don't fancy people very much and the reason I laugh about being the world's least likely person to write such a book is because I've probably been celibate and largely disinterested in sex for most of my life but it all it was in my early 40s it really fell into place for me because I had started wondering if I was asexual which didn't make sense because I had had some sexual experiences but when I learned the word demisexual everything fell into place and and demisexuality is where it's on the asexual spectrum where you're generally not at all interested in sex until you meet someone that you feel a strong connection with I think everybody would agree that sex is a more powerful thing when there

is a connection but this is slightly different it's a wee bit like there's just zero interest until someone catches your interest so it's it's like um having zero appetite unless a roast chicken dinner is in front of you but you would never eat a tuna sandwich because you're not hungry enough you would only wait and want the chicken dinner. But it was so frustrating for me because, you know, you have no inner compass. If you don't know what you fancy and if you need a connection and you don't know what you like. I didn't know what I wanted. I had no compass to guide me. And I think explaining that will be of comfort to a lot of people, you know, who perhaps go about their lives and don't even

confront it, right? But when you did have that roast chicken put in front of you, in case you're, this person is listening, I hope they're like being compared. Did you, did you understand it? How did you feel at that point? Honestly, you know, you see those scenes in films where a 17 year old boy has just lost his virginity and he's walking down the street swinging around lampposts and punching the air I I was giddy with excitement I felt about 20 feet tall it was um and incidentally by the time I'd learned the demisexuality thing um the person that I explored this with didn't turn out to be my roast chicken dinner um I I just finally thought I needed to I need to go in here and it was a straight woman who kind of pursued me a bit so and that was quite

comforting to me as well because it just made everything less scary because we were both new and why do you think these narratives about women coming out later are lacking I don't really know um I think it's an awful lot more common than people realize and it's a very confusing time for people. My partner's experience, again, was very, very different. She was happily married for 25 years and had never, ever considered her sexuality until her and I met. And she had a huge reaction that she didn't understand and ignored until she couldn't ignore it. And then she had to navigate her situation with as much care and love and respect as she could, because the potential for just the pain, it can cause the people in her

life, you know. And I think that ties into the demisexuality thing, though, because while I would say I was gay, I have been with men, and those men have meant a great deal to me. So again, it was about the connection. So somebody who's coming out later in life and has been married, it doesn't mean that they betrayed that marriage in any way. I think that demisexuality thing is probably a lot more common than we realise. And I don't know if I would say that I think you've neglected it. I just think it's a very common thing hard to talk about because they've got to confront something that perhaps is a surprise or, you know, very sensitive and needs to be handled sensitively within their life. Let's hear a bit of the book because you have recorded something and I want to talk about the process of writing it. Tess in the book is and she's been called to see her gp uh

tessa i should say has been called to see her gp for a smear which turns into a more general mot and then we move we should say into the world of fantasy now can you just lift your right arm and put your hand behind your head please asked dr seville tess mutely complied feeling horrified that she was so turned on by this unsuspecting doctor who had just placed her hand on her breast. It was a clinical touch, but her hand was warm and dry. As the doctor cupped her breast and squeezed with the other hand, Tess realised she was getting wet and was mortified when her nipples stiffened under the woman's touch. Is it cold? Are you okay? Asked Dr Seville, continuing to touch Tess and looking her in the

eye. How does that feel? Really good, Tess responded before realising what the doctor had meant. No, no, that's good. I mean, it's fine. It's not sore or anything, if that's what you mean. That's what you meant, right? Uttered Tess, horrified. God, sorry, Tess chuckled in embarrassment. Breaking the eye contact, Dr. Seville's hand seemed to linger on Tess's breast for a second longer than was strictly necessary. And as she took her hand away, her fingers accidentally grazed Tess's nipple, causing a short, sharp intake of breath that Tess hoped the doctor hadn't noticed. OK, that's good, said Dr. Saville with a nervous chuckle of her own. And now the other breast. I mean, the other arm. Put your other arm behind your head, please. Your left arm, I mean. It was at this point that Tess wondered if the doctor had become a bit flustered too. It was possible that Dr Saville

was just embarrassed by Tess's announcement that her touch felt good, but every sense in Tess told her the doctor was struggling in exactly the same way she was. Dr Saville was aroused too. Tess didn't get any vibe that the woman was gay, but then, in a professional setting, she maybe wouldn't anyway. However, she did think that the woman was turned on and felt a flush of shame, power, relief and fun as she wondered what the next 15 minutes might hold. There you go. There is a plot there about Tess's realisation

about her sexuality. That's what it is. And the stories do move backward and forward in time. And that was the bit that we could read, I think, on the radio. Why did you feel Flit that you wanted to put it down on paper like this? It started off as fun I had I had um started going out with someone we'd been together for about a month and I had to go away with work

and I wrote a story for a laugh to send back to my girlfriend at the time and she came back saying absolutely it's quite a sweet story it's quite good so I just started writing more of them and it just poured out of me and I was I was mortified I'm sat in this lovely little boutique hotel on the waterfront in the Falklands feverishly writing these stories with kids parties happening around me just terrified that someone would look over my shoulder and see what I was writing you know um but actually when I was at a point of feeling so confused and so lost and so directionless in terms of what my sexuality was and feeling completely unable to explore it and find out properly,

I downloaded some lesbian erotica to try and explore and see if my body would respond to it and how it felt. And a lot of what I found was stories that were either really inane, so that, you know, it's difficult to be turned on when something's bugging you because it's just so idiotic. But at the other end of the spectrum, they were really aggressive. And I just thought, why is there room for aggression in a story about women having sex? And it just felt like a real shame. But writing sex, people who write all the time, do you find it really tricky as well?

It's funny. It's a very hard genre to write. And at least if you're doing heterosexual porn you can use his hand her hand because you've got to paint a picture for people to understand what's happening yes um and so you need to know whose hand is where you know but if you can't say his hand her hand you then have to start using names a lot so it gets quite clunky and there was a point you know where even I was getting confused just thinking right hang on a minute whose boob am I talking about here you know and if I don't know how are they gonna know and then you've got the other tricky bit which is how do you come up with an even remotely credible transition between two people having a perfectly normal conversation and a hairdresser to shag it. Flick Bayliss whose book is called The Awakening

Life of Tessa James, and lots of you got in touch on this one to tell us your own stories. This one here from a psychotherapist. I hear the stories of many women who find their sexuality shifts later in life, often around menopause. In my experience, this is a common situation, but still filled with shame, guilt, and how they feel they will destroy their children, husband, etc. No

surprise to me as just another example of women putting everyone else's needs and desires before their own, the ultimate sacrifice, the ability to be true to yourself. Thank you very much for listening to Weekend Woman's Hour. Have a great weekend. Go out there and be like a ninja. What's the link between poisoned underpants? They wanted something that rubs against your skin. A plot to kill Nelson Mandela. To find a poison that would cause cancer and have him die shortly afterwards. And the deadly riots in South Africa this year. I'm Andrew Harding with a tale of politics and paranoia.

Some people wanted me dead. Oh, and the link is Jacob Zuma, South Africa's former president. And indeed, it was quite a strong poison. That's Poison from BBC Radio 4. To listen to all five episodes, just search for Seriously on BBC Sounds. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.